957 replies to this topic

[bottlerocket]

Correct - if you look at the Sailing World video, where Reed shows in the interior, you can see the keel tube behind the cockpit hatch.

Yup, good catch.

[dinghydock]

There is a nice cover plate over the keel when it is extended so there is nothing to trip over or get lines fouled on when sailing.

[GybeSet®]

Finally a shot going upwind in pressure
3 Big-Arse Pros [legs out] on the gunnel, [plus helm, crew of four]

Hmm, went to reply and the pic "Cassowary Ugly" included in his quote, originally posted by Ndav, has been moved or deleted. That was fast!! Don't know what to make of that. Maybe nothing. But all Ndav's other pics are still up. Did that one not fit the marketing template?

Yeah, weird that pic is gone.

That pic is now an unperson. It never happened.

This one?

that's it, you got that from cache ?

[Monster Mash]

^
Saved it when it was posted.

[mrpelicano]

A few thoughts...

1. In the Moore 24 class legs-out hiking is constrained by a rule specifying that the crew's torso must remain parallel to the side of the hull, which is intended to prevent M24-style hiking or anything resembling what we typically think of as "hiking". So it's a nice compromise between legs-in hiking and M24-style aggressive hiking.

2. I've raced the M20 in SF Bay and felt the boat was overpowered upwind in anything over 15-18 knots. Legs-in upwind in big breeze is slow and unpleasant, IMHO. Downwind the boat is a blast in breeze, though you have to all hang off the back, as several have noted. Skipper typically complains if anyone steps on his foot trying to get aft.

3. Raced M24's for several years, in the bow position, and it wasn't until I started working out and focusing on strengthening my abs that I found hiking tolerable. It's not the most fun thing in the world, but once you get the technique down and some basic fitness, it's not so bad (padded lifelines essential, of course). I have to confess that it actually seemed kind of hard core, in a masochistic sort of way.

4. The few times I've raced Etchells I've been struck by the extremes that people go to compensate for the legs-in position by very creative hiking strategies. Strong abs are a must to be competitive, and I used to wonder why the class didn't just allow hiking straps like Star boats. But I suppose the E22 is a gentlemen's boat, so legs-in (wink, wink, nod, nod, say no more) is the way it goes.

5. For New England, I suspect that the J70 is going to be ideal. Conditions are typically much lighter than SF Bay, for example, and not really ideal for M20's and M24's, in my opinion. And I say that as a fan of both boats, and of Melges' promotion of their classes. What appeals to me about the J/70 is I can see taking my family out for a day sail, which I can't really envision with the M20 or M24. I've been looking seriously at the J/80 and J/92s (Euro-version with masthead kite), but the J/70 may be just what the family ordered, in terms of price, performance, trailerablity, driveway storage, etc. Looking forward to a test sail once they get started.

[RATM]

At this point what is the general opinion on sailing down wind: Leave the jib out or furl it?

[mrpelicano]

Furl unless it's blowing dogs off chains and you anticipate a samurai douse somewhere along the way.

[Jagtek Performance Products]

Whole buncha J80s in the classifieds...

[EYESAILOR]

Furl unless it's blowing dogs off chains and you anticipate a samurai douse somewhere along the way.

Furling is so nineties! I dont think anyone furls in the Melges anymore except in really light air. Look at the J80, still known to J boats as "World's #1 sportboat", in the banner ad.

[6924]

Why can a U20 plane and all the photo evidence indicates the J/70 just pushes a few tons of water forward ?

Is this a deliberate marketing ploy - to create photos of big wakes and spraying foam ?

To the inexperienced, those huge wakes and foam suggest speed - but experienced people understand all that sound and fury suggests a lumbering vessel.

[narecet]

In at least some of the pics, the boat has too much bow-up trim, immersing the transom too deeply. The boat would go faster if flatter. In some the crew is further back than they need to be, which could be the full explanation. In others, you have to wonder why it is putting the transom down so much: the crew is not that far aft.

Of course J-planing means any speed past about 8 knots.

In at least some of the pics, the boat just isn't going actual planing speed, and is plowing.

If the boat reached the 14 knots claimed, then it would be actually planing. There seems to be no pic of that snapshot in time. There's also the consideration that that GPS speed report may have been instantaneous GPS, which can be fluky. (I mention that because 14 knots downwind in 18 knots breeze would be surprising given the specs.)

[blisster]

[narecet]

1600 lb?

[Pappy]

1600 lb?

Seems unlikely, given the J/80 is 2900 lbs, and I'm not sure it looks that light in video just posted (thanks, blisster).

[Monster Mash]

1600 lb?

Seems unlikely, given the J/80 is 2900 lbs, and I'm not sure it looks that light in video just posted (thanks, blisster).

Unlikely what?
Heavier or lighter?

[sfsportboat]

Is there a new vid or are you referring to the Sailing World and Sail vids?

[supine]

Her bow seems to sit high in the water both up and downwind, dragging the stern a bit too.

[Snapper]

Looks like a mini J-80 and on the heavy side based on inability to get planing even in what looks like some breeze.

[tq2000]

Some of you guys are a trip with your comments. It is instructive though, as it is giving me a good glimpse into the type of people in each one design class, and in the end the thing that will get me into a new class is the type of people I will be enjoying racing with.

[jt9686]

Some of you guys are a trip with your comments. It is instructive though, as it is giving me a good glimpse into the type of people in each one design class, and in the end the thing that will get me into a new class is the type of people I will be enjoying racing with.

+1

[Francisco Laguna]

Some of you guys are a trip with your comments. It is instructive though, as it is giving me a good glimpse into the type of people in each one design class, and in the end the thing that will get me into a new class is the type of people I will be enjoying racing with.

Post of the Day.

Take a look at the FT10. I also have my concerns about the amount of wingnuts in the viper class. Will it survive them? I think a few of them have driven off their fair share potential owners.

[bottlerocket]

1600 is probably not far off. A J/22 is 1800. The J/70 looks a lot lighter than a J/80. My guess is 1900 lbs.

[Snapper95]

No kidding. Difficult to understand the "performance" comments based on still images or videos, all with different wind and wake conditions. The boys making these remarks have no clue on exact point of sail or control settings, crew weight etc. Must be awfully insecure about the appearance of a boat in a completely different market for some bizarre reason.

I'm considering a J70 for the same reason thousands of other racers across the spectrum are as well. It's light enough to tow with affordable vehicles (including fuel burn). it's easy to launch and rig due to the carbon, deck stepped mast. It doesn't' require massive athleticism from all crew members to sail, no foredeck training, opening up the boat to a broader market that will ensure decent fleets.

I almost bought a J80 a few years ago and am glad I waited. The J70 will be far easier to deal with than the 80 in terms of crew and getting to a Regatta, rigging and overall maintenance.

It isn't all about performance kids, it's the whole package including the attitude of the players involved as the previous couple of posters intimated. The people you sail with and against are a huge influence on whether the experience is worthwhile or not. I've watched a fleet of sport boats disintegrate locally precisely because of the jackasses who sailed them.

BTW, the last specs I saw put the J70 displacement at 1700 and change...

[Snapper]

Some of you guys are a trip with your comments. It is instructive though, as it is giving me a good glimpse into the type of people in each one design class, and in the end the thing that will get me into a new class is the type of people I will be enjoying racing with.

If you're referring to me, I am making a comment on what I see in the video. I race lots of classes and the boat looks a little sticky to me based that vid. I have no axe to grind. I like good boats and fun classes. It will fit a niche and that's great. More sporties the better but don't bag on me for my opinion of a vid posted here.

[Timbo]

Several folks from many classes have commented on the veracity of claims about the J-70. Not sure how this morphed into a observation about the Viper class at all.

Some of you guys are a trip with your comments. It is instructive though, as it is giving me a good glimpse into the type of people in each one design class, and in the end the thing that will get me into a new class is the type of people I will be enjoying racing with.

Post of the Day.

Take a look at the FT10. I also have my concerns about the amount of wingnuts in the viper class. Will it survive them? I think a few of them have driven off their fair share potential owners.

[Steam Flyer]

Several folks from many classes have commented on the veracity of claims about the J-70. Not sure how this morphed into a observation about the Viper class at all.

Haters gotta hate. From my point of view, the Viper class has been no more vocally partisan than any other class... but the fact that there is even a Viper class at all just seems to drive some people up the wall...

No kidding. Difficult to understand the "performance" comments based on still images or videos, all with different wind and wake conditions. The boys making these remarks have no clue on exact point of sail or control settings, crew weight etc. Must be awfully insecure about the appearance of a boat in a completely different market for some bizarre reason.

Disagree. If you sail enough boats in similar size/type/conditions you can actually make some pretty shrewd observations of how a boat sails from a video. Obviously it would be better to have a lengthier, more detailed video....

I'm considering a J70 for the same reason thousands of other racers across the spectrum are as well. It's light enough to tow with affordable vehicles (including fuel burn). it's easy to launch and rig due to the carbon, deck stepped mast. It doesn't' require massive athleticism from all crew members to sail, no foredeck training, opening up the boat to a broader market that will ensure decent fleets.

... ...

Same reason why a lot of people considered buying a Rocket 22 or a Flying Tiger 7.5 adn this is actually what was kinda promised with the Melges 20. The fact that it's a J makes it a little more likely to become a class.

FB- Doug

[Snapper95]

Disagree. If you sail enough boats in similar size/type/conditions you can actually make some pretty shrewd observations of how a boat sails from a video. Obviously it would be better to have a lengthier, more detailed video....


FB- Doug

There are a couple of places in the last video where the J70 is climbing the wake of the powerboat that is carrying the cameraman. Wonder how many folks noticed that before making the "stern squatting in the water" comment? Is the boat carrying ballast for evaluation of the final sail configuration? Bottom line is until we the thing for ourselves in it's final class configuration, none of us really knows.

Enjoy the boat you have elected to sail, it's a big world out there and it's not a zero-sum game. The platform you choose doesn't define you either way.

Frankly, in this economy/environment, I'm happy to see some new designs coming out of the molds!

[knuckles]

Okay, when will JBoats drop the word "Speedster"?

[supine]

There are a couple of places in the last video where the J70 is climbing the wake of the powerboat that is carrying the cameraman. Wonder how many folks noticed that before making the "stern squatting in the water" comment?

My comment at least was based on the side on shots, no wake from the camera boat involved there.

[tq2000]

Some of you guys are a trip with your comments. It is instructive though, as it is giving me a good glimpse into the type of people in each one design class, and in the end the thing that will get me into a new class is the type of people I will be enjoying racing with.

If you're referring to me, I am making a comment on what I see in the video. I race lots of classes and the boat looks a little sticky to me based that vid. I have no axe to grind. I like good boats and fun classes. It will fit a niche and that's great. More sporties the better but don't bag on me for my opinion of a vid posted here.

Shouldn't you be a bit more relaxed being out there on the West Coast? You are reading something into my comment which is not there. There are many pages of comments on this boat, and they are all over the place, including religious arguments about the definition of planing and whether it is better or worse to hike legs in or legs out, what constitutes modern and what is a type of boat that only the flintstones would consider sailing. It is instructive to see how different people react to the same thing. I have just been getting back into sailing and racing now after a 15 year break while raising two kids. I would like to find a class that is a lot like what the J24 class was back in the early 80s. I remember that class at that time as being relaxed, low ego , high fun environment, where the top guys in the fleet always took time to help the back half of the fleet improve. People sailed and raced hard, but never took themselves or the results too seriously. Maybe that was just the fleet that I sailed in at the time, but that is what I would like to find. To be certain there are going to be people who would find that boring and want cutting edge, super competitive, UFC on the water class. I would not be happy in a class like that. There are also people who are looking to sail around in a circle with friends and might find what I like to be too competitive and too much work for their tastes. I am not passing judgement on what anyone wants to do with their free time and spare change. So, nothing personal and no bagging on anyone. Please keep posting comments, it helps me get a better picture of the tone in different classes, that is all.

[sfsportboat]

Tq2000,
Remember this is SA and 90% of this conversation is between about 12 people (maybe 3 of which will actually buy one).

Performance is one thing and I think the majority of the market demographic for this boat will be plenty well served
by this boats ability to get up and plane when its blowing (which most people won't be thinking about in 12 kts). The rest
of the feature set will carry the day for the majority.

I'm also coming back from raising 2 kids. I raced the Moore 24 fleet and really loved it, but I'm looking forward to fewer crew, smaller sails, the asym, some real planing when it's blowing 20kts, true trailerability, ramp launching, not having the deck 8 feet off the ground on the trailer, pulling up the bulb if I go aground and putting up a carbon spar vs an aluminum one. Oh, and the part about the bow riding high? Rather that than having everyone hiking of the stern when we're off the wind and keeps the crew fwd while we're going upwind. I'm thinking they meant to do that?

So far this thing has hit me right between the eyes... Granted it's not a turbo'd sport boat with racks planing in 6 kts.

[narecet]

Shouldn't you be a bit more relaxed being out there on the West Coast? You are reading something into my comment which is not there. There are many pages of comments on this boat, and they are all over the place, including religious arguments about the definition of planing and whether it is better or worse to hike legs in or legs out, what constitutes modern and what is a type of boat that only the flintstones would consider sailing. It is instructive to see how different people react to the same thing. I have just been getting back into sailing and racing now after a 15 year break while raising two kids. I would like to find a class that is a lot like what the J24 class was back in the early 80s. I remember that class at that time as being relaxed, low ego , high fun environment, where the top guys in the fleet always took time to help the back half of the fleet improve. People sailed and raced hard, but never took themselves or the results too seriously. Maybe that was just the fleet that I sailed in at the time, but that is what I would like to find. To be certain there are going to be people who would find that boring and want cutting edge, super competitive, UFC on the water class. I would not be happy in a class like that. There are also people who are looking to sail around in a circle with friends and might find what I like to be too competitive and too much work for their tastes. I am not passing judgement on what anyone wants to do with their free time and spare change. So, nothing personal and no bagging on anyone. Please keep posting comments, it helps me get a better picture of the tone in different classes, that is all.

Unless you've done a fair bit of research on each of various posters, I just don't see how you are getting a better picture of the tone in different classes. And further, what a strange way to get the idea of the tone in different classes, but that's a different matter.

So what posts from what classes are giving you this picture, and how?

[Snapper95]

I'm also coming back from raising 2 kids. I raced the Moore 24 fleet and really loved it, but I'm looking forward to fewer crew, smaller sails, the asym, some real planing when it's blowing 20kts, true trailerability, ramp launching, not having the deck 8 feet off the ground on the trailer, pulling up the bulb if I go aground and putting up a carbon spar vs an aluminum one. Oh, and the part about the bow riding high? Rather that than having everyone hiking of the stern when we're off the wind and keeps the crew fwd while we're going upwind. I'm thinking they meant to do that?

^^^^^^ This.
It appears to me that the design seeks to address the primary negatives of the average owner/racer, which is where the mass market and profit resides. It is accomplished by attention to minimizing the aggravation of ownership and maintainance while making competitive boat handling attainable without excessive pain.

What are the criticisms of the J70? It's over marketed? It's not "bad ass" enough? Please, we're talking sailboat racing at a handful of knots, not air combat maneuvering in a fight to the death.

[narecet]

That would make sense but if so, a less confusing marketing message would be helpful to understanding. (Maybe not to sales though: I'll assume that J Boats knows how to say whatever will yield the most sales and does do so, thus for example their talking about the J/70's "sweet handling" before it ever touched water.)

So what happens when claiming "has jets," "afterburners," 14 knots in 18 knots breeze, 1600 lb displacement, "smoking hot," "Speedster," "wake like a Volvo 70," "planes in 12 knots," etc?

That brings interest from people who want something in that neighborhood in a boat, wouldn't you think? And it may bring expectations that the boat will be like this? And then as evidence comes out that some or all of that seems to be tipped more towards the BS side than the truth side, there are going to be some concerns and/or discussions. Is that surprising?

And then when discussion about these things occurs, you disparage other classes for it. Nice.

If the boat is more J/80-like but easier to own and launch and about equally fast overall or a little faster, which is what I was expecting, then why not present it as such, instead of this confusion.


If you're saying that if the boat is as per the above sentence, that that will be fine to make many happy, I agree. As personal opinion, what I'm seeing so far looks a lot closer to that than to the claims. Modernized, ramp-launchable, a little smaller sister to the J/80 with a couple of steps more performance seems fair enough and if that's what it is, should please many.

[Snapper95]

I'm not disparaging other classes at all- that is exactly what I find as infantile and boorish about too many OD sailors. Basic human nature I suppose, people have to find a reason to feel superior. It's prevalent if you pay attention, and it'll steal your soul if you let the condescending arses get to you. I don't want to deal with big egos derived from people plowing around at six knots feeling above those who do it at 5.86 no matter how cool the platform.
Sounds like you are upset by marketing that most people discount and ignore from the start. Fair point though, I couched this thing as a J22/J80 offspring after a wild, one night stand in the winter boat storage shed. Never saw it as a light dingy that would spend most of it's life on the plane.
I can understand negative attitudes from people who think a new OD might cannibalize their current fleet. One really has to wonder how the J70 might affect the J80 market for starters.

[narecet]

I'm not disparaging other classes at all- that is exactly what I find as infantile and boorish about too many OD sailors. Basic human nature I suppose, people have to find a reason to feel superior. It's prevalent if you pay attention, and it'll steal your soul if you let the condescending arses get to you. I don't want to deal with big egos derived from people plowing around at six knots feeling above those who do it at 5.86 no matter how cool the platform.
Sounds like you are upset by marketing that most people discount and ignore from the start.
I can understand negative attitudes from people who think a new OD might cannibalize their current fleet. One really has to wonder how the J70 might affect the J80 market for starters.

Using terms such as "infantile,""boorish," and "condescending arses" is being disparaging of other people.

You claimed to be learning about other classes from these posts, with it certainly appearing to mean learning negative things or things unattractive to you. I asked you to be specific and you came up with nothing.

As for your claims that I'm "upset," you need to re-read.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you any further. You haven't posted anything but absolute noise focused on complaining about other people. I don't intend to participate further with that. I will close with only the addition that your theories that other people's posts are from fears of their own classes being cannibalized are in my opinion unwarranted for even a single post that has appeared in this thread. But think what you will.

Out.

[Snapper95]

You are confusing my posts with those of others. On other points, sounds like I hit uncomfortably close to the truth.

[narecet]

Apologies on the "classes" part: that indeed was a different poster. The confusion occurred because of both of you focusing on nothing but negative comments about or bringing in other fleets, rather than any real discussion of this boat.

Everything else, I stand by as dead-on, however, and don't see a reason to continue discussing with you on it. There was no confusion on your own quoted words showing that your approach is to disparage other sailors as your basic approach to this subject. You're of course entitled to post whatever negativity towards other people or conspiracy theories that you want. I did owe you that above correction however.

[tq2000]

Sorry -- I find that people who use terms such as "infantile" and "boorish" are in fact being judgmental and criticizing of other people.

You claimed to be learning about other classes from these posts. I asked you to be specific and you came up with nothing.

As for your claims that I'm "upset," you need to re-read.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you any further. You haven't posted anything but absolute noise complaining about other people. I don't intend to participate further with that.

I think you are confused on which posts belong to which posters. I was the one who said these posts are instructive to me. I did not reply to you as I really don't feel a need to explain myself more than I did. I am not sure why you would feel I need to defend myself for what I said, so I assumed you either misunderstood my point or were looking for a fight, and in either case I was not going to be able to help you out. There is no way that I am making a decision on what class to get into based on SA let alone a single thread on SA. I was just pointing out that for me, the types of questions people ask, the types of things they find important, and the types of things they find worth arguing about, are a more significant factor than a video or picture of the boat. I would like to be in a class with people similar to myself, that does not mean I think people who are dissimilar are wrong or bad, you are free to feel otherwise.

FWIW, I am planning on looking at the Viper, VX one, J70, as well as others, and I have not ruled out any yet. If you could let me know what boat you sail and what fleet, you might be able to help me narrow the list down though.

[narecet]

Sorry -- I find that people who use terms such as "infantile" and "boorish" are in fact being judgmental and criticizing of other people.

You claimed to be learning about other classes from these posts. I asked you to be specific and you came up with nothing.

As for your claims that I'm "upset," you need to re-read.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you any further. You haven't posted anything but absolute noise complaining about other people. I don't intend to participate further with that.

I think you are confused on which posts belong to which posters. I was the one who said these posts are instructive to me. I did not reply to you as I really don't feel a need to explain myself more than I did. I am not sure why you would feel I need to defend myself for what I said, so I assumed you either misunderstood my point or were looking for a fight, and in either case I was not going to be able to help you out. There is no way that I am making a decision on what class to get into based on SA let alone a single thread on SA. I was just pointing out that for me, the types of questions people ask, the types of things they find important, and the types of things they find worth arguing about, are a more significant factor than a video or picture of the boat. I would like to be in a class with people similar to myself, that does not mean I think people who are dissimilar are wrong or bad, you are free to feel otherwise.

FWIW, I am planning on looking at the Viper, VX one, J70, as well as others, and I have not ruled out any yet. If you could let me know what boat you sail and what fleet, you might be able to help me narrow the list down though.

You don't have to reply to me, but I found it, and still find it, extraordinary that a person could think they were learning about the people in any other class from reading posts in this thread. And making decisions with ideas gathered from this thread about people in various classes being any significant factor would seem extraordinary. But people can use any method they want.

I find the boat more interesting than this talk about people in other classes, and opinions held of them, or how one is going to come to opinions of them, etc. To each his own though.

[tq2000]

Sorry -- I find that people who use terms such as "infantile" and "boorish" are in fact being judgmental and criticizing of other people.

You claimed to be learning about other classes from these posts. I asked you to be specific and you came up with nothing.

As for your claims that I'm "upset," you need to re-read.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you any further. You haven't posted anything but absolute noise complaining about other people. I don't intend to participate further with that.

I think you are confused on which posts belong to which posters. I was the one who said these posts are instructive to me. I did not reply to you as I really don't feel a need to explain myself more than I did. I am not sure why you would feel I need to defend myself for what I said, so I assumed you either misunderstood my point or were looking for a fight, and in either case I was not going to be able to help you out. There is no way that I am making a decision on what class to get into based on SA let alone a single thread on SA. I was just pointing out that for me, the types of questions people ask, the types of things they find important, and the types of things they find worth arguing about, are a more significant factor than a video or picture of the boat. I would like to be in a class with people similar to myself, that does not mean I think people who are dissimilar are wrong or bad, you are free to feel otherwise.

FWIW, I am planning on looking at the Viper, VX one, J70, as well as others, and I have not ruled out any yet. If you could let me know what boat you sail and what fleet, you might be able to help me narrow the list down though.

You don't have to reply to me, but I found it, and still find it, extraordinary that a person could think they were learning about the people in any other class from reading posts in this thread. And making decisions with ideas gathered from this thread about people in various classes being any significant factor would seem extraordinary. But people can use any method they want.

I find it surprising that you find it surprising that I believe one can learn something about what people are like based on what they say and how they interact with other people.

[narecet]

Well, not surprising as generally people's own methods and ideas make sense to them, and often not to others.

However, to be precise, I wasn't saying coming to an opinion about a particular poster (which however still would have poor likelihood of being a really if at all accurate picture) but coming to an opinion about the people in a class.

Unless the class has only 2 or 3 people in it: then an opinion about one or two of them would pretty much have to affect perception of the class.

[Snapper95]

narecet,

I don't even know what you sail, and I have been discussing the merits of the J70's configuration at length. The performance isn't known yet, so it is difficult to get too deep into that aspect, but I at least believe the boat handling will be almost identical to the J80 and similar to the Melges 24 (without as much weight shift considerations) which with I have the most familiarity in the sport boat class. Since it is OD, I'm not sure that relative performance between classes is overwhelmingly significant. It's more about what it takes to compete the boat at this point.

Whatever I decide, I want it to be easy to tow, launch, rig and maintain. I'm pretty sure it will be easy to sail without much drama or enigma about shroud settings, etc due to it's conventional design. If you were weaned on a boat without an adjustable backstay, or enjoy doing P90X/Crossfit crunches on the rail, I understand why this boat seems less exciting to you.

[Snapper]

Shouldn't you be a bit more relaxed being out there on the West Coast? ... I am not passing judgement on what anyone wants to do with their free time and spare change. So, nothing personal and no bagging on anyone. Please keep posting comments, it helps me get a better picture of the tone in different classes, that is all.

Fair enough. Apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion. I have not bothered to follow this thread until I saw that a video had been posted and simply added my comments on what I observed. People who think anyone who owns a similar boat who posts a comment has an agenda and is only out to protect the class they sail in and want to discourage anything new need to get a life. With that said, there are some well known class trolls here on SA. I'm not one of them, got that Snapper95? Nice original handle there, Tex.

I like the looks of the J-70 and the fact that it can be easily moved around is a big plus. Once the testing has been done and the boat is sorted I'm sure it will be a success for it's target market. I just hope they don't go too conservative with the sailplan like the Melges 20, which is woefully underpowered and the reason I didn't buy one after sailing it.

Disclaimer: The above post is just my opinion and copyright Words For Turds 2012

-Snap (the real one)

[narecet]

Well, I hadn't seen your at-length discussion of merits of configuration. You have at the moment 6 posts total, and also on review I'm not seeing it. I picked up more on your terms such as jackasses for people in other fleets, and infantile, boorish, and condescending arses. But that's okay.

If what you're looking for is as described, as a guess the J/70 seems aimed to what you're looking for and as personal guesswork, likely will suit very well. I am simply saying that if that's what it is, it would be clearer if it were presented as such. In the meantime, until there are a number of boats on the water, we have to puzzle it out if we want to have the closest idea we can. And it's hard, as we read a description of a sail on a given day, then watch a video of that same day's sailing in the same conditions described, and it's like two different worlds. Downwind anyway: upwind the posted description and video seem to match just fine. Personal opinion on both. But we each, at this point, have only our personal opinion, or that plus apparently-hype claims that it would seem unwise to put much if any trust in.

[Snapper95]

Fair enough. Apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion. I have not bothered to follow this thread until I saw that a video had been posted and simply added my comments on what I observed. People who think anyone who owns a similar boat who posts a comment has an agenda and is only out to protect the class they sail in and want to discourage anything new need to get a life. With that said, there are some well known class trolls here on SA. I'm not one of them, got that Snapper95? Nice original handle there, Tex.

I like the looks of the J-70 and the fact that it can be easily moved around is a big plus. Once the testing has been done and the boat is sorted I'm sure it will be a success for it's target market. I just hope they don't go too conservative with the sailplan like the Melges 20, which is woefully underpowered and the reason I didn't buy one after sailing it.

Disclaimer: The above post is just my opinion and copyright Words For Turds 2012

-Snap (the real one)

I was Snapper a long, long time ago, it was my call sign in the USN. Was looking for news on the J70 and found all of this cutting, bleeding edge, Anarchy. Saw you pop up in the thread and thought that guy must be pretty cool. Where does yours come from?

Concur with your thoughts on the J70. Wasn't the M20 designed with a taller rig and clipped to de-power it? Again, I am only familiar with the M24.

I'm NOT a Texan, btw. Just exiled here for the duration. Love the place though.

Snapper the "Original One"

[us7070]

Shouldn't you be a bit more relaxed being out there on the West Coast? ... I am not passing judgement on what anyone wants to do with their free time and spare change. So, nothing personal and no bagging on anyone. Please keep posting comments, it helps me get a better picture of the tone in different classes, that is all.

Fair enough. Apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion. I have not bothered to follow this thread until I saw that a video had been posted and simply added my comments on what I observed. People who think anyone who owns a similar boat who posts a comment has an agenda and is only out to protect the class they sail in and want to discourage anything new need to get a life. With that said, there are some well known class trolls here on SA. I'm not one of them, got that Snapper95? Nice original handle there, Tex.

I like the looks of the J-70 and the fact that it can be easily moved around is a big plus. Once the testing has been done and the boat is sorted I'm sure it will be a success for it's target market. I just hope they don't go too conservative with the sailplan like the Melges 20, which is woefully underpowered and the reason I didn't buy one after sailing it.

Disclaimer: The above post is just my opinion and copyright Words For Turds 2012

-Snap (the real one)

i've never been on a melges 20, so i asked earlier in this thread, when the subject came up..., and i guess i got the sense that a number of people think the melges 20 is _overpowered_, and difficult to sail in ~20kts or so...

[Jerryd]

Tq2000,
Remember this is SA and 90% of this conversation is between about 12 people (maybe 3 of which will actually buy one).

Perfect! The best observation of this entire thread!

[MR.CLEAN]

Shouldn't you be a bit more relaxed being out there on the West Coast? ... I am not passing judgement on what anyone wants to do with their free time and spare change. So, nothing personal and no bagging on anyone. Please keep posting comments, it helps me get a better picture of the tone in different classes, that is all.

Fair enough. Apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion. I have not bothered to follow this thread until I saw that a video had been posted and simply added my comments on what I observed. People who think anyone who owns a similar boat who posts a comment has an agenda and is only out to protect the class they sail in and want to discourage anything new need to get a life. With that said, there are some well known class trolls here on SA. I'm not one of them, got that Snapper95? Nice original handle there, Tex.

I like the looks of the J-70 and the fact that it can be easily moved around is a big plus. Once the testing has been done and the boat is sorted I'm sure it will be a success for it's target market. I just hope they don't go too conservative with the sailplan like the Melges 20, which is woefully underpowered and the reason I didn't buy one after sailing it.

Disclaimer: The above post is just my opinion and copyright Words For Turds 2012

-Snap (the real one)

i've never been on a melges 20, so i asked earlier in this thread, when the subject came up..., and i guess i got the sense that a number of people think the melges 20 is _overpowered_, and difficult to sail in ~20kts or so...

It's not so much that it's overpowered. More that it's under-equipped with righting moment...a fine distinction, but that's what you get when you're legs in without straps.


That being said, the Italians have them going fine in 20 now that they've had time to get the boat and technique dialed in.

[Snapper]

I was Snapper a long, long time ago, it was my call sign in the USN. Was looking for news on the J70 and found all of this cutting, bleeding edge, Anarchy. Saw you pop up in the thread and thought that guy must be pretty cool. Where does yours come from?

Concur with your thoughts on the J70. Wasn't the M20 designed with a taller rig and clipped to de-power it? Again, I am only familiar with the M24.

I'm NOT a Texan, btw. Just exiled here for the duration. Love the place though.

Snapper the "Original One"

Nickname given to me by my rugby team mates at school in England. That would be circa 1978 so maybe I am the original Snapper!

M20 rig was clipped, underpowered in light to medium, OK in breeze. I sailed it in light air and was not impressed.

I spent a year in Texas one weekend...

-Snap (the original one until proven otherwise!)

[Snapper95]

Nickname given to me by my rugby team mates at school in England. That would be circa 1978 so maybe I am the original Snapper!

M20 rig was clipped, underpowered in light to medium, OK in breeze. I sailed it in light air and was not impressed.

I spent a year in Texas one weekend...

-Snap (the original one until proven otherwise!)

Well you have vanquished my moniker with aplomb. I was "awarded" the call sign in 1984 by my squadron buds. Evidently, and I didn't know it at the time, but Snapper was the Battle of Britain British Radar Controller radio call for an airborne ME-109. Apparently, for the first few weeks I was aboard, my squadron thought I landed on the ship more like like a Luftwaffe pilot than a Naval Aviator. It wasn't a complement.

Since you are indeed senior, I'll see if I can change mine out somehow.

naracet-

I wasn't disparaging THE entire fleet with my eloquent choice of words, I was disparaging A PARTICULAR fleet at our local digs (nor did I mention the fleet type). It broke up, some guys sold boats, and everyone but one solitary bottom of the fleet boat left the marina. Two weeks ago, I got several messages from one of the fat, little skippers demanding that I come crew for him for such and such a regatta. He must be desperate, all things considered.

There are some great people on the water out there across the spectrum, but don't tell me that there aren't jerks that ruin the experience for everyone. You know the type.

Back to the J70 -

One thing about the images that bothers me slightly is that the keel design places the hull fairly high on the trailer. Seems that you will need an extension if the launch ramp isn't very steep.

[Snapper95]

It's not so much that it's overpowered. More that it's under-equipped with righting moment...a fine distinction, but that's what you get when you're legs in without straps.


That being said, the Italians have them going fine in 20 now that they've had time to get the boat and technique dialed in.

Does it seem that way primarily upwind or downwind, or both? I ask because I wonder if a lack of a backstay inhibits the ability to depower quickly.


BTW "Real Snapper" - the forum software sez I can't change my screen name until I have 67 more "approved posts". I'm sure narecet is excited to hear that!

[MR.CLEAN]

Does it seem that way primarily upwind or downwind, or both? I ask because I wonder if a lack of a backstay inhibits the ability to depower quickly.

Downwind is fine in any kind of breeze, so long as you have decent reflexes and understand how to soak in a puff. Boat is a hoot running in good air and waves.

Upwind is hard to sail upwind in big breeze because legs in, no hiking means very little righting moment. Getting the shrouds sorted to really flatten the main has helped, though that can leave the boat underpowered and unable to punch upwind through any real waves. I jumped on one in Garda (20-25) and it was tough to go upwind even without big chop. Turn around and put your legs out over the side and things were just fine! That's why I call it a RM issue rather than an overpowered one.

[Snapper]

BTW "Real Snapper" - the forum software sez I can't change my screen name until I have 67 more "approved posts". I'm sure narecet is excited to hear that!

Keep your handle. It has good history and is fully Snapper approved now. I'll bet my nickname came from the team coach/teacher, who was ex-RAF and the lads ran with it. The ME109 was pretty fast so I'm not sure if that was where it came from or my ability to crash and burn on the field, probably the latter.

Now back to your regular programming...

-Snap

[knuckles]

RE: the trailer

I hope that the pix of the trailer that we have seen so far are just a build to get the boat between the factory and the water. It is a half-assed looking trailer to get a boat up and down the highway. Real bunks would be a start, and something more than a rubber bumper (mounted on a steel fork) to support the forward part of the boat would inspire more confidence.

[Jagtek Performance Products]

Anyone seen dimension sheet? Looks pretty narrow. Makes sense when you think of jboats high performance offerings ala j90 j125. Don't know if that's just a matter of perspective on video. Would be interesting to see beam compared to m20/24.

[narecet]

BTW "Real Snapper" - the forum software sez I can't change my screen name until I have 67 more "approved posts". I'm sure narecet is excited to hear that!

?

doesn't matter to me

[Snapper95]

Keep your handle. It has good history and is fully Snapper approved now. I'll bet my nickname came from the team coach/teacher, who was ex-RAF and the lads ran with it. The ME109 was pretty fast so I'm not sure if that was where it came from or my ability to crash and burn on the field, probably the latter.

-Snap

I'll bet that is exactly where it came from. Pretty cool indeed.


EYESAILOR/MR Clean - Thanks for the words on the M20 guys.

[Snapper95]

Anyone seen dimension sheet? Looks pretty narrow. Makes sense when you think of jboats high performance offerings ala j90 j125. Don't know if that's just a matter of perspective on video. Would be interesting to see beam compared to m20/24.

Try here -

J70 Sailplan

Principal Dimensions

LOA 6.93 m/ 22.75'
LWL 6.10 m/ 20.00'
Beam 2.25 m/ 7.38'
Draft 1.45 m/ 4.75'
DSP 726kg/1600 lbs (I've recently seen 1700 plus posted somewhere)
Upwind SA/D 33
Downwind SA/D 79

[Dewey Devil]

Tq2000,
Remember this is SA and 90% of this conversation is between about 12 people (maybe 3 of which will actually buy one).

True.

[hermetic]

From the pic's and vid's there are 4 - 5 outstanding small keelboat sailors playing on the boat.

Too bad none of them want anything to do with this place.

[Furkolkjaaf]

"A recent demo is indicative of the J/70s performance envelope around the track. Starting in just 4-6 kt breezes building to no more than 8-13 kt winds-- the J/70 averaged 6.7 knots over an 8.96 nm track that took 1 hr 19 min 46 secs. Top speed was 10.8 kts downwind while average speed upwind ranged from 5.8 to 6.5 kts-- pretty quick for a 23 footer! In short, we sailed 4.5 nm upwind, turned around, set the chute and sailed 4.5 nm downwind. The track can be seen here on Phillipe Kahn's MotionX-GPS software (Phillipe's a fellow J/100 owner in Santa Cruz, CA)- http://bit.ly/H06lmO. "


If numbers are correct, this thing is faster than my J92S both upwind and down
jets & afterburners !

[Snapper95]

From the pic's and vid's there are 4 - 5 outstanding small keelboat sailors playing on the boat.

Too bad none of them want anything to do with this place.

Here is a preliminary take from Dave Reed at SW-

http://www.sailingworld.com/sailboats/the-j70-gets-real

[Left Hook]

J/70 Hull #2 just sailed by right in front of my dorm room window 5 minutes ago. Got shitty pics and shittier video from my point and shoot Canon but it seemed to go upwind well in the 6-7 knots on Mt. Hope Bay today. Will be interested to see how it looks going downwind when it comes by again. Pics & Vids to come.

[Cheesy]

It's not so much that it's overpowered. More that it's under-equipped with righting moment...a fine distinction, but that's what you get when you're legs in without straps.


That being said, the Italians have them going fine in 20 now that they've had time to get the boat and technique dialed in.

Does it seem that way primarily upwind or downwind, or both? I ask because I wonder if a lack of a backstay inhibits the ability to depower quickly.


BTW "Real Snapper" - the forum software sez I can't change my screen name until I have 67 more "approved posts". I'm sure narecet is excited to hear that!

The lack of a backstay is a good thing as long as the rig is designed right, have a look at any of the Aus/NZ sport boats in this size range, or even what would be considered more of a trailersailor (E780, R780 etc), none have backstays. Small light boat, sail it like a dinghy not a lead mine

[Left Hook]

Didn't wind up popping a chute while I was watching. Here's some media for those of you obsessed with this thing.














Some notes: According to AIS the cargo ship on a parallel course in the first shot was doing 8.5 knots. Wind conditions inside the bridge: 6-7 knots with big puffs. Outside the bridge: ???. Boat accelerated noticeably and impressively when puffs hit. Went upwind like a champ in the lighter stuff and looked sensitive to puffs when going upwind (but not in a tender way). White sail reaching (which is what the video footage is of) looked just fine and quick enough. I'm fairly positive that the test sailors weren't pushing it at any point so don't doubt the performance based on the media I've shared.

Though from my (limited) birds eye view it looks like they've hit the nail on the head. I can definitely see that bad boy getting up and going but also being great for fun family daysailing. Quick enough to go in the lighter winds but not too big or expensive.

[ease hike trim]

Paralysis by analysis.

[Snapper95]

Did any of you consider an SB-3? No American One Design interest, basically?

[GybeSet®]

"A recent demo is indicative of the J/70s performance envelope around the track. Starting in just 4-6 kt breezes building to no more than 8-13 kt winds-- the J/70 averaged 6.7 knots over an 8.96 nm track that took 1 hr 19 min 46 secs. Top speed was 10.8 kts downwind while average speed upwind ranged from 5.8 to 6.5 kts-- pretty quick for a 23 footer! In short, we sailed 4.5 nm upwind, turned around, set the chute and sailed 4.5 nm downwind. The track can be seen here on Phillipe Kahn's MotionX-GPS software (Phillipe's a fellow J/100 owner in Santa Cruz, CA)- http://bit.ly/H06lmO. "


If numbers are correct, this thing is faster than my J92S both upwind and down
jets & afterburners !

this is inaccurate regarding the upwind speed. Firstly the 'average upwind' would be one figure, like the overall average is one figure.
" 5.n to 6.n " of course would be upper and lower

Of course a mid sixes average upwind is impossible if the average both ways is 6.7 ! much faster D/W
Bear in mind that this was in a building breeze, the initial upwind leg was in breeze reported as low as 4knts, the final DW was reported up to 13knts

6.5 on a boat of this waterline would be when the boat was not hard on the wind, say when lifted in a gust and the steerer let it load up before returning to a higher course

I wonder if the (one-figure) average speed could be made public, guessing between 5.8-6.0


I guess you could find some realistic* M-24 polars for this breeze strength and knock off a few percent for a true guide as to the optimistic upwind average


*as opposed to optimistic

[6924]

Gybe,



What are you trying to do - stop everyone from drinking the kool-aid ?

[narecet]

There's also the consideration that 6.5 knots through the water upwind on a 20 foot waterline is not going to happen for a keelboat. I'm not saying it wasn't measured in any sense -- perhaps an instantaneous GPS value, or perhaps a good GPS value but current-aided -- just that it didn't go that fast through the water upwind. Keelboats don't exceed hull speed upwind, which would be 6.0 knots here.

On the downwind being little faster than the upwind, perhaps the lesser breeze came while coming back downwind.

On the other hand, 10.8 knots of actual boatspeed with no more than 13 knots breeze?

Ah well we certainly won't have the picture of what this boat does until a number are on the water and some are same time, same place as other boats. Then we will know if it is this remarkable planing machine and exceeding-hull-speed-upwind machine or is not.

[mezaire]

Can someone tell me why none of the US based OD classes seem to do the sensible thing and have a #1 and #2 jib?

I read so many comments about this boat is over/underpowered in said wind strength, why not bring a boat like the J70 out with two headsail sizes? If you want to keep the racing close make it like match racing where before each boat hits the water someone (fleet captain/ood etc) decides that today the fleet will have to run with jibX.

I know it's a bit more expense up front but you actually save in the long run because you don't flog your #1 jib and main out as much trying to race with them in 25 knots.

[Snapper95]

The theoretical displacement hull speed is modified depending upon hull shape and LWL when heeled isn't it?

[narecet]

The theoretical displacement hull speed is modified depending upon hull shape and LWL when heeled isn't it?

For some boats that's significant... but even so, for most high performance but not extreme keelboats I don't see them (whenever I've looked at it) exceeding hull speed upwind as calculated from static LWL.

It's not that hullspeed is a drastically different point of power required from other nearby speeds, actually the curve is pretty smooth, but it does represent more power needed than keelboats generally produce upwind.

Maybe someone can provide an exception, but I don't know what.

Does Melges 24 exceed its hullspeed upwind as calculated that way (on 22 feet LWL)? Namely, exceed 6.3 knots. Let alone exceed static-LWL-based hull speed by half a knot as would the case for the J/70 and the above figures?

I think instead it does about 6.0 knots and that only with more breeze than said above. Others will be more familiar with Melges 24 performance and can say more accurately.

I'm just not buying J/70 as faster upwind relative to its waterline than a Melges 24, let alone markedly faster.

To be clear: I'm not saying the GPS report is untrue for what the GPS said. I fully expect it's true. I'm saying rather that I don't expect that's what the boat did through the water.

[crash]

If it can immerse its entire LOA when going upwind (I assume that to be 22.75 ft and doesn't include the rudder) then theoretical hull speed would be 6.39. So it might could get close to the reported 6.5. I know, a lot of "ifs" in that scenario.

[narecet]

If the Melges 24 doesn't reach 6.5 knots upwind in 13 knots breeze or similar breeze, then why should we expect the J/70 does?

[crash]

Melges has some bow overhang, that the J-70 doesn't have. I don't have any idea what the immersed LWL is for the M24, but I'd have to think its a bit longer than the J/70's. So in general I agree that if a M24 doesn't a J/70 won't either. Like I said, there were alot of "ifs" in my statement/post.

[Jagtek Performance Products]

Oh god what a nightmare this has turned into. Please stop talking about hull speed or half knot gps irregularities blah blah blah. It's not productive to this topic. It is not a speed limit but just a simple formula that defines where two waveforms are for a given set of dimension parameters that happens to coincide with a large increase in wave making drag. It's practical application is being massively misused here.

Yes I realize this is a giant pandoras box I'm opening but I just can't take it anymore.


Now, back to the j/70.

[narecet]

So wait a sec: posting numbers implausible as accurately being speed through the water is good, talking about them not likely to be actual speed through the water is bad?

Perhaps you could have saved your criticism for there being any suggestion that the boat is that fast upwind? (Current-aided speed obviously doesn't help us understand the boat.)

As for your theoretical discussion, I'm not talking theory, I'm talking fact, as I've observed it anyway, that keel boats other than extreme performance cases don't do this, and for example the Melges does not. Nowhere was I talking about theory of waveforms or anything you're trying to.

If your opinion is that the J/70 may well be faster upwind than the Melges you're entitled to that opinion. Time will tell whether it is you or I that is shown right on that one. f your opinion is that I shouldn't express my opinion that if the Melges doesn't reach 6.5 knots upwind in 13 knots breeze then I don't expect the J/70 does, but you should express yours, I don't know where you get that.

EDIT. On your half-knot point. I've already mentioned several times GPS irregularities and didn't want to be a broken record and bring that up again. However, as personal opinion (if I have your permission?) I doubt it does 6.0 knots upwind in 13 knots either. I decided to go find the Melges 24 polars, as my basis for mentions thus far is simply limited time crewing on the boat. Polars are not perfect and sometimes they are beaten. However the Melges 24 polar for upwind in 14 knots (the claim was max of 13) is 5.94 knots. Personally I don't expect the J/70 to match the Melges, so 6.0 -- a half knot less than the max claimed -- still is higher than I'm going to bet is right, but now by only a small amount. Personal opinion. You do believe in expressing your opinion, so hopefully you won't complain this time about a different opinion being shared.

And btw, a half knot upwind for boats of almost the same length is not a trivial difference, whether between boats, or between a claim and reality.

[Jagtek Performance Products]

So wait a sec: posting implausible numbers is good, talking about them is bad?

Perhaps you could have saved your criticism for the posting of them?

As for your theoretical discussion, I'm not talking theory, I'm talking fact, as I've observed it anyway, that keel boats other than extreme performance cases don't do this, and for example the Melges does not. Nowhere was I talking about theory of waveforms or anything you're trying to.

If your opinion is that the J/70 may well be faster upwind than the Melges you're entitled to that opinion.

if your opinion is that I shouldn't express my opinion that if the Melges doesn't reach 6.5 knots upwind in 13 knots breeze then I don't expect the J/70 does, but you should express yours, I don't know where you get that.

Good god dude you've been on this site for 3 weeks and have over 400 posts of pure torture. You're starting to sound like Doug Lord or HWSNBN. those are all before your time though.

Many sailboats routinely sail WELL above hull speed mostly because their wave making drag is relatively low compared to say a heavy powerboat. My point about waveforms is that the magic sound barrier you talk about ie the equation that is hull speed is DERIVED by expressing the location of the two main waveforms (bow and stern wave) as a function of Fn which can be then expressed as a function of speed and length. It describes the speed at which the two waves create constructive interference and wave making drag rises dramatically. It does not say it can't be exceeded at all. Speed is still a function of total driving force and total drag. Hell even a j105 will do 10kt through the water cracked off 10 degrees from close hauled! I'm frustrated because all this talk is just a bunch of wasted time in relation to this topic.

For a good primer on hull speed, check out this link but can we stop talking about it here? http://www.boatdesig...speed-1220.html

[narecet]

Name me one keelboat, other than canting keel, trapezed, near-dinghy, or otherwise extreme well past a J/70, that you can find UPWIND speed in excess of hull speed.

And I'm not talking about close reaching or cracked well off: we're talking boat speed when going for VMG to windward. Speed when aiming upwind.

If in this report the boat was actually cracked off for example 10 degrees from best VMG upwind, then if reporting speed, shouldn't that have been mentioned else the effect is misleading? Why not just sail at 85 degrees to true wind and report that boat speed as the upwind speed? Damn the boat would look good.

Not interested in your above theory attempts or your boatdesign.net link: you are the one sounding like Doug Lord and engaging in utterly inane theorizing, and I do mean utterly inane (your above material.) Name me the boat and your source of information contradicting what I've said with real results showing different.

In particular, why do you think the J/70 plausibly can do 6.5 knots upwind in reported 13 knots max breeze when the Melges 24 doesn't? You do understand that there are reasons to expect the J/70 to perform less well in this regard than the Melges, not better? A big theory guy like you ought to be able to spot that?

Why do you have a problem with someone saying that the boat is unlikely to have done better than 6 knots through the water upwind in that breeze, and/or their illustrating why it's implausible?

[MR.CLEAN]

For what it's worth, the three-time World Champion Melges 24 team has been using 6.2 as their low number for upwind targets for probably four or five years now, with 6.5 the high number. That's max VMG regardless of the printed polars.

Edit: What I find implausible is anyone driving 6.5 knots upwind in the J boat with 3 people barely hiking, which should make it obvious that 'upwind' is more of a marketing term here. Then again, the stuff coming out of the J/Boats newsletter, Sailing World, and SAIL can't really be expected to be accurate, nor should anyone think it would be. The boat still looks cooler than anything else in the J/stable right now, and the price seems right compared to a M24, which it is pretty damned close to in most respects.

[narecet]

Thank you! That is better information than I have, because of sailing at a much higher level. At what windspeed?

In that case, I think it's fair to have an opinion that for the undeveloped J/70 with sailors not quite at that level (I presume) it's unlikely that 6.5 knots upwind speed was reached in 13 knots breeze. As personal opinion, others absolutely can have differing opinion. We won't know till the boat is out there.

[Jagtek Performance Products]

For what it's worth, the three-time World Champion Melges 24 team has been using 6.2 as their low number for upwind targets for probably four or five years now, with 6.5 the high number. That's max VMG regardless of the printed polars.

Clean, is that vmg or speed thru the water? Curious do you know what twd at vmg or at least tacking angle?

[Snapper95]

Name me one keelboat, other than canting keel or otherwise extreme far past a J/70, that you can find UPWIND speed in excess of hull speed.

Upwind, I've seen GPS velocities in excess of the theoretical hull speed of my boat. It has a heeled water line four or five feet longer than the spec waterline (IIRC). The J70 doesn't appear to have much extra heeled LWL length if any.

I also believe the the GPS could be picking up movements due to wave action causing pitching and rolling adding to the velocity displayed. The devices calculate range-rate, and most aren't particularly advanced in terms of update rates. They aren't very fine in their measurements of decimal knots at our sailing speeds.

The argument is irrelevant to a One Design fleet. Who cares if the boat is faster or slower than a Melges24. Just based on specs, I'd almost say it being slower is a given. Who cares?

[Jagtek Performance Products]

And I have never said one way or another of I believe the numbers coming out of the sailing world or Sail were accurate. I'll I've said is that narecet guys is a chucklefukk and adds nothing to the discussion here. Yeah, discount theory all you want big boy. I'm sure all the design houses do too.

[narecet]

I don't. I expect it to be slower than the Melges 24. I think everyone ought to expect that.

However, I know that GPS can give some flukey readings. And -- for example by being well cracked off, though I'm not saying that happened there -- various things can happen resulting in reporting speeds that won't be experienced in practice.

I do think that since we are trying to learn about this boat, it does matter whether posted numbers are probably about right or are dubious. If it just doesn't matter at all, then why post the numbers? The claims of planing in 12 knots, reaching 12-14 knots planing in 18 knots breeze, reaching 6.5 knots upwind in 13 knots breeze, etc, seem to be for the purpose of telling us this boat is surprisingly fast.

As with the words "jets," "afterburners," and "Speedster."

So somebody seems to think that speed claims matter.

[MR.CLEAN]

Thank you! That is better information than I have, because of sailing at a much higher level. At what windspeed?

In that case, I think it's fair to say that the undeveloped J/70 with sailors not quite at that level (I presume) it's unlikely that 6.5 knots was reached in 13 knots breeze.

You get to those numbers in around 10 true going upwind. In 12, you start pulling on a little backstay.

I think it is fair to say that the J/70 was not pointing where they will be after a few years of development. I think it is also fair to say that the boat will not go that fast on a good upwind angle with those three dudes parked on the deck like that, no matter how much development they have. It takes some serious hiking to get that 6.5 knots at a tight angle on the M24, gotta get righting moment from somewhere...

That being said, I'm not understanding why you say it's unlikely 'that 6.5 knots was reached' in 13 knots of breeze. Crack off to say 55 true, you're still going upwind and probably hitting 6.5. It ain't like they're racing, and to me that bit of fluffery is a lot more tolerable than the 'speedster' fluff.

[narecet]

Cracked off, sure, but then the claim becomes pretty meaningless.

Worse than meaningless, because it's misleading if some believe it as being upwind speed from the standpoint of what's usually meant.

And some here were believing it, it seems like.

Personal tastes vary: perhaps out of the line of work I do, words like "speedster," "afterburners," and "jets" don't bother me much though I think they're silly, but puffed numbers I do find bothersome for misleading effect.

[MR.CLEAN]

For what it's worth, the three-time World Champion Melges 24 team has been using 6.2 as their low number for upwind targets for probably four or five years now, with 6.5 the high number. That's max VMG regardless of the printed polars.

Clean, is that vmg or speed thru the water? Curious do you know what twd at vmg or at least tacking angle?

Speed through the water, tacking through 90 in flat water. Gotta let the big dog eat!

[Jagtek Performance Products]

Name me one keelboat, other than canting keel or otherwise extreme far past a J/70, that you can find UPWIND speed in excess of hull speed.

The argument is irrelevant to a One Design fleet. Who cares if the boat is faster or slower than a Melges24. Just based on specs, I'd almost say it being slower is a given. Who cares?

This is the point exactly! Thanks a lot for making sense of the situation. I'm getting too worked up to do so. My decision to buy or not to buy one of these is going to be influenced by a lot of things. It's relative performance to other boats is very low on that list. I'd give up a lot of performance as long as the thing is really fun to sail, handles well, and accomplishes everything else I'm looking for in a OD. I have not found a boat yet that fits what I'm looking for. Hope this one does.

[narecet]

Then why in the world do you care if I write that I doubt it reaches 6.5 knots upwind? Let alone get worked up about it? It sounds like it should have slid off you like water off a duck, being completely irrelevant to you.

Further, perhaps at this point you see that I did have reason to doubt it. (Your boatdesign.net link notwithstanding. Really, why did you do that and particularly then name Doug Lord? The irony!)

[MR.CLEAN]

Cracked off, sure, but then the claim becomes pretty meaningless.

Worse than meaningless, because it's misleading if some believe it as being upwind speed from the standpoint of what's usually meant.

And some here were believing it, it seems like.

Personal tastes vary: perhaps out of the line of work I do, words like "speedster," "afterburners," and "jets" don't bother me much though I think they're silly, but puffed numbers I do find bothersome for misleading effect.

Dude, it's marketing - something J/Boat is fucking good at. A civil court would call it 'mere puffery,' and I'd say the term is not designed for your ears, but instead for the guy that thinks his J/105 is a grand prix raceboat or the guy that never bought a Melges 24 or Mumm 30 'cause it was 'too extreme'. That guy is going to be reaching around the beat anyway, so he'll probably be going 6.3 all the time!

[Jagtek Performance Products]

Then why in the world do you care if I write that I doubt it reaches 6.5 knots upwind? Let alone get worked up about it? It sounds like it should have slid off you like water off a duck, being completely irrelevant to you.

Dude I'm done with you. Have a nice life.

[narecet]

No problem, thanks for the good wishes though your sincerity is dubious.

There's an Ignore feature: you certainly can use it. It will save you the trouble of responding to posts you can't respond to with anything you can back up or makes sense. I do regret you were upset about the speed claim being doubted, but there's no way to predict people's feelings or to account for every different feeling out there.

[MR.CLEAN]

I hope I get to sail the boat soon anyway. To me it looks like a great family boat, good for juniors and girls and the elderly and everyone else that needs a winch to trim sails on a 22 footer. Also it is proof that even J/Boats has finally embraced sporties. Maybe they'll stop calling the J/80 a sportboat now!

[narecet]

They absolutely overshot my expectation (which was easily trailerable, modernized, smaller J/80 with just a little more performance.) It really should be a success.

[Furkolkjaaf]

"A recent demo is indicative of the J/70s performance envelope around the track. Starting in just 4-6 kt breezes building to no more than 8-13 kt winds-- the J/70 averaged 6.7 knots over an 8.96 nm track that took 1 hr 19 min 46 secs. Top speed was 10.8 kts downwind while average speed upwind ranged from 5.8 to 6.5 kts-- pretty quick for a 23 footer! In short, we sailed 4.5 nm upwind, turned around, set the chute and sailed 4.5 nm downwind. The track can be seen here on Phillipe Kahn's MotionX-GPS software (Phillipe's a fellow J/100 owner in Santa Cruz, CA)- http://bit.ly/H06lmO. "


If numbers are correct, this thing is faster than my J92S both upwind and down
jets & afterburners !

this is inaccurate regarding the upwind speed. Firstly the 'average upwind' would be one figure, like the overall average is one figure.
" 5.n to 6.n " of course would be upper and lower

Of course a mid sixes average upwind is impossible if the average both ways is 6.7 ! much faster D/W
Bear in mind that this was in a building breeze, the initial upwind leg was in breeze reported as low as 4knts, the final DW was reported up to 13knts

6.5 on a boat of this waterline would be when the boat was not hard on the wind, say when lifted in a gust and the steerer let it load up before returning to a higher course

I wonder if the (one-figure) average speed could be made public, guessing between 5.8-6.0


I guess you could find some realistic* M-24 polars for this breeze strength and knock off a few percent for a true guide as to the optimistic upwind average


*as opposed to optimistic

OK, Let's say :
upwind average = 6.0
=> downwind average = 7.4

if the above is "proper" upwind and downwind (no hot angles) then it's still faster than my j/92s at 10.5 average TWS...

I should probably buy an ad...

[GybeSet®]

jeez these J yachties are showing no inkling of what reality is under 1 tonne of boat ( well under), J are going to be able to tell you ANYTHING and you'll be drinkin' the K'aid

Furkol** downwind VMG will be a totally lower value.
It's an Assy boat chasing apparent, of course there'll be angles downwind ! shown HERE in the post in question 90^ - 100^ gybes all over the Hbr.
Once planing it and a m24 may well beat a J/92 to the bottom mark.

[interested party]

So, I guess, if raced PHRF, it should owe the Melges 24 a few seconds per mile. Correct?