137 replies to this topic

[Ajax]

Saw one of these early in the week: Freedom 38

A free-standing rig this big, simply blows my mind. It looked so odd. Don't these boats also have rotating masts? What is the advantage to this? Why wasn't this concept more popular? What were the big flaws (if any)?

I wish I'd gotten pictures, but I was too busy sailing my own boat.

[sailman]

Saw one of these early in the week: Freedom 38

A free-standing rig this big, simply blows my mind. It looked so odd. Don't these boats also have rotating masts? What is the advantage to this? Why wasn't this concept more popular? What were the big flaws (if any)?

I wish I'd gotten pictures, but I was too busy sailing my own boat.

Carbon Fiber! These rigs have been around for a while. Wylie has been a nice line of boats, I believe Bruce Schwab's Ocean Planet was one of their designs. Several circumnavigations to the design's credit.

[jackdaw]

Kestrel as TWO of these right next door. The owners love them. Simple rig setup, with only the tiny jibstay to fiddle with. Strong as shit, but I'm guessing that this is little (read:NO) rig tuning you can do to adjust for conditions, either on the dock or while underway.

[Innocent Bystander]

Freedom's are nice boats. Challenge seems to be adding HP in the light stuff and a perception that lack of headstay tension hurts them upwind. THen there's that "how do it stay up without wires?" thing.

As Sailman says, Wyle does cool unstayed rigs. Take a look at Rage (Steve Rander's boat from Schooner Creek) for another. Linky I saw Rage sailing out of Port Towsend when she was new with about 30 folks on board in 20 knots or so of wind. Mast looked like a Laser mast when a puff came on and the top flexed to open the leech. Really neat concept. I want to beg a ride but had an 18 month old strapped on my back and a pregnant wife in tow, so we stayed on the dock.

Just remember next time you fly on an airliner that unstayed spars are dangerous and unproven......

[jackdaw]

Just remember next time you fly on an airliner that unstayed spars are dangerous and unproven......

Classic! And too true. I'd take a Spad over an Airbus any day.

[Ajax]

Wow, the Wylie site was very enlightening. These boats are much more common than I thought. Very neat!

[Steam Flyer]

Saw one of these early in the week: Freedom 38

A free-standing rig this big, simply blows my mind. It looked so odd. Don't these boats also have rotating masts? What is the advantage to this?

Simpler, stronger, less windage.

Why wasn't this concept more popular? What were the big flaws (if any)?

... ...

Big fat mast

Owner personalities ranging from whimsical to quirky to obnoxious superiority complex. One guy trying to sell us a Freedom 40 actually said to me, "You have to be a moron to have a boat with conventional rigging."

Y-M Tanton did a bunch of freestanding rigs IIRC, Hunter did 2 models mid-30s-ish size. There's more out there than just the Freedom series.

FB- Doug

[Innocent Bystander]

Kestrel as TWO of these right next door. The owners love them. Simple rig setup, with only the tiny jibstay to fiddle with. Strong as shit, but I'm guessing that this is little (read:NO) rig tuning you can do to adjust for conditions, either on the dock or while underway.

I'd say "different methods to tune the rig to the conditions." Very much main driven boats so luff tension, draft, leach tension, twist are all still there. The jib with the camber spar is a little bit "set and forget", but you have halyard tension, spar tension and lead position to play with.

Guy down here had one called "Father Goose" You'd see him out with about 6 kids under 12 years old and no other adults. Self tacking rig, easy to gybe. He loved it.

[Bob Perry]

The Freedom 38 is a good sailing boat. I once went cruising on a Nonsuch 36 ( I think it was 36) with Graham Kerr, the TV cheff. That boat sailed well. We ate well.
I think the biggest drawback to those rigs is the lack of versatility.
And no backstay to hang onto when you are whizzing off the transom.

[Ishmael]

The Freedom 38 is a good sailing boat. I once went cruising on a Nonsuch 36 ( I think it was 36) with Graham Kerr, the TV cheff. That boat sailed well. We ate well.
I think the biggest drawback to those rigs is the lack of versatility.
And no backstay to hang onto when you are whizzing off the transom.

It was a 36. We know the people who bought it.

[jackdaw]

Kestrel as TWO of these right next door. The owners love them. Simple rig setup, with only the tiny jibstay to fiddle with. Strong as shit, but I'm guessing that this is little (read:NO) rig tuning you can do to adjust for conditions, either on the dock or while underway.

I'd say "different methods to tune the rig to the conditions." Very much main driven boats so luff tension, draft, leach tension, twist are all still there. The jib with the camber spar is a little bit "set and forget", but you have halyard tension, spar tension and lead position to play with.

Right... When I said rig I was thinking the spar (so no rake, pre-bend, sag, etc), but you're right, you still have soft-line controls to effect sail shape.

[Ajax]

Sailing with Graham Kerr... Back to the food thread, mmmm.

[Gatekeeper]

The Freedom 38 is a good sailing boat. I once went cruising on a Nonsuch 36 ( I think it was 36) with Graham Kerr, the TV cheff. That boat sailed well. We ate well.
I think the biggest drawback to those rigs is the lack of versatility.
And no backstay to hang onto when you are whizzing off the transom.

That's because you are stuck in old thinking...You put one foot on either side of the wishbone. Hold on to the topping lift and have the skipper sail a beam reach. Simple.

Graham Kerr...I remember his show...the Galloping Gourmet !! I used to watch it after school everyday. Right after Lloyd Bridges in Sea Hunt!

(anyone else feeling old?)

[Hike, Bitches!]

Graham Kerr...I remember his show...the Galloping Gourmet !! I used to watch it after school everyday. Right after Lloyd Bridges in Sea Hunt!(anyone else feeling old?)

Nope..WTF are you guy talking about? Who is Graham Kerr?

[Gatekeeper]

[Nope..WTF are you guy talking about? Who is Graham Kerr?

Bugger off junior.




(kidding)

[blackjenner]

We looked at a Freedom when we were on our boat search. I think she's still for sale, at around 110K.

Yup, still listed, I think:

http://www.sailboatl....com/view/16340

Here is my writeup on Archangel.

http://ourfreedompro...freedom-39.html


And now, the Freedom 39

Some of the best parts of this is seeing interesting boats of all types and sometimes, if we aren't dealing with brokers, the actual owners.

In the case of the Freedom 39 we saw on Easter Sunday, it was a double whammy.

The boat is very interesting. It is an unstayed rig in a cat/schooner (the mizzen, or rear mast, is taller than the foremast) configuration. To top it off, the masts are unstayed. That means that, unlike most conventional sailboats, there are no stays, or guy wires supporting the masts. In this case each mast is a huge, hollow, carbon fiber and fiberglass pole, supported by the reinforced deck and set against the bottom of the hull. This is an extremely cable and simple boat.

The really nice thing about this rig is how easy it is to single hand. Everything is led back to the cockpit; everything. There are only two winches necessary to run the entire boat and they both reside under a very nice dodger and bimini. If you are going to windward (sailing upwind) you set the sails and basically don't have to touch them again. You just tack with the wheel and the sails self-tend all day.

[Ajax]

Wow, that is just crazy. Only 2 winches for the whole thing! The boat has neat lines, too.

[curm]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

[JRCann]

The Freedom 36/38 is a real nice all around cruising boat! Nice performance in all airs... will pass a Freedom 45 in anything less than 10 knots. Goes to weather very well with the Bierig self-tacking jib, and can really get up and go on a reach. I am a former Freedom dealer so have sailed the 38 extensively. In fact, I may have sold the very one you saw. A good friend and customer keeps theirs in Harness Creek, so it may be the one you saw.

[JRCann]

Curm, the Freedom Pedrick 40 was one of the last Freedoms designed and produced. Probably the most advanced as well. I still think the Gary Mull 36/38 was the best all around design from Freedom. Note -- neither the 38 or 40 had wishbone booms. Nor were thye catboats, like the Nonsuch, the 38 & 40 Freedoms were actually sloops with a big mainsail & the Beirig jib -- a very good solution for better all round performance than a catboat, if you are looking for the self-tacking feature. Both are mainsail driven, but the small jib creates a slot for better upwind performance, which coupled with effective keels and keel shapes account for the performance they are capable of. Also nice balanced helm pressure on the 38 and 40 made them a joy to sail. BTW, in my past life I was both a Freedom Dealer and a Nonsuch Dealer, so I have basis for my opinions.

[pqbon]

Wow, the Wylie site was very enlightening. These boats are much more common than I thought. Very neat!

I'm a huge fan of the Wyliecat boats. I had to pass on a ride on a WC 48 this weekend (stupid family -- I kid - I love my wife and kids...)

I've sailed on the 30' a handful of times. You really only need to reef (depending on which owner you are with) in 25+ to 35+ of wind. I really can't say enough good things about these boats.
Two people is basically fully crewed. More then two people and you have people that are pretty much only passengers or rail meat if racing.

*** I have no personal interest in the Wylie boats other then the fact that I really really enjoy sailing them.

[Yarrow]

I currently own at Freedom 25, which has a rotating carbon wing spar which is unstayed. The boat also has back stays which are only used when the mast head Kite is used and staysails for light air use to help point.
cheers,
yarrow

[Kaptainkriz]

Phoenix down here at SMSA is a Freedom 35. Owner stepped up from a 21.

 2010June30_WedPRO_08.JPG   58.5K   40 downloads

[Magnum Opus]

The other "flaw" is that you apparently can't do a very tall freestanding mast with out carbon fiber which is of course expensive.

Beyond that:
I grew up in the Columbia Gorge and windsurfing was my first exposure to sailing so free standing wishbone rigs appeal to me on that sort of instinctual level that long over hangs and teak seem to appeal to the older crowd. As a physicist rigging just seems hideously inelegant.

[SemiSalt]

In some ways, the boats with freestanding rigs are less uniform in their engineering than the sloops. I would guess that's partly due to less pressure to conform to racing practice, and some part that they are all the result of some free-thinker who does things his own way.

I always felt the Freedoms had a hell of a lot line on them for what was supposed to be a simple boat. Freedom has used several designers (Hoyt, Mull, etc) and I'm sure each did things a little differently. I did see a Freedom with the topmast broken off, and I always wondered how they did that. Could have been a low bridge... Or a masthead chute.

We have a couple of Nonsuches in our marina. The owners like them a lot. The Wishbone takes away some of the adjustability because the foot of the sail becomes the vang.

The Hunter Vision series was pretty interesting to me, technically. The aluminum mast was very thin and flexible at the top. Those boats really were meant for beginners, and the rig was very simple. That tends to mean good for fair weather only. Someone at Hunter got huffy when a reviewer called them "bay sailers."

One should keep in mind that the majority of sailors have no clue about the nuances of sail control mentioned up-thread. If the main doesn't have major wrinkles,t then it looks good to them.

[Ajax]

One should keep in mind that the majority of sailors have no clue about the nuances of sail control mentioned up-thread. If the main doesn't have major wrinkles,t then it looks good to them.

Wait, what? You mean there's more to it than that??

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Saw one of these early in the week: Freedom 38

A free-standing rig this big, simply blows my mind. It looked so odd. Don't these boats also have rotating masts? What is the advantage to this? Why wasn't this concept more popular? What were the big flaws (if any)?

I wish I'd gotten pictures, but I was too busy sailing my own boat.

Psyché's Song has raced an average of forty club races a year for the past ten years. Loves heavy air. But 30 knots on Mother's Day was a tad excessive!

[Jayavarman]

Perhaps a reef would depower that wing a bit?

What do you think?

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Perhaps a reef would depower that wing a bit?

What do you think?

I know the skipper rather well and his attitude is that he'd rather go in than reef. I see his point. Who would want to choke that beautiful mainsail?

[Jayavarman]

Perhaps the solution is two mains? One pristine main for most races and a heavy main with reef points for the blusterly days?

As a guy who sails most races in front of the mast I'd like to see the back of the boat make some sail changes once in a while:)

-Jaya

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Perhaps the solution is two mains? One pristine main for most races and a heavy main with reef points for the blusterly days?

As a guy who sails most races in front of the mast I'd like to see the back of the boat make some sail changes once in a while:)

-Jaya

The owner has explored that option somewhat. A $1,000 addition to the sail inventory is what I've been told.

[familysailor]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

Is that the one that pitch poled in the southern ocean?

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

Is that the one that pitch poled in the southern ocean?

When was that? What decade?

[familysailor]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

Is that the one that pitch poled in the southern ocean?

When was that? What decade?

Not sure ---- could be a phantom memory.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

Is that the one that pitch poled in the southern ocean?

When was that? What decade?

Not sure ---- could be a phantom memory.

Not exactly. There was an urban legend about a Freedom pitch-poling in the South Atlantic. The legend goes that the mast stayed in place, but the keel broke off. Don't know the boat, but it is supposed to have happened in the 1980's.

[familysailor]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

Is that the one that pitch poled in the southern ocean?

When was that? What decade?

Not sure ---- could be a phantom memory.

Not exactly. There was an urban legend about a Freedom pitch-poling in the South Atlantic. The legend goes that the mast stayed in place, but the keel broke off. Don't know the boat, but it is supposed to have happened in the 1980's.

Her's a post in a thread on "Cruisers Forum":

24-12-2006, 07:51 #9 Quijote Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Rota, Spain Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 59 Andrew,
The difficulty in reducing sail is exactly what you would expect from a normal mainsail. If the gear is laid out correctly, it's simple. Of course, you have two "mainsails". In my designs, we led all the reefing lines aft, so there was nothing to it.
Strength is a function of engineering. If the spars are designed for the loads correctly, they should last forever. I remember a cat-ketch that was doing the single-handed around the world race. I forget the name now, but I knew the engineer and he had wanted to use all carbon fiber.
But due to budgetary considerations, the masts had to be made with a mix of carbon fiber and S-glass. They still worked well.
As it came to pass, the boat was rolled and then pitchpoled off the Cape of Good Hope. The keel was torn off by the forces and was hanging by a flap of fiberglass, but the racer was able to keep sailing slowly (the spars were still up) and meet up with another competitor at which time he abandoned the boat. That was a pretty convincing demo of brute strength for the spars, especially considering the use of S-glass.
Fortunately, carbon fiber is cheaper now.
Regards,
Richard __________________



Cat Ketch rig; both masts stayed up........

[knucklehead]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

Is that the one that pitch poled in the southern ocean?

When was that? What decade?

Not sure ---- could be a phantom memory.

Not exactly. There was an urban legend about a Freedom pitch-poling in the South Atlantic. The legend goes that the mast stayed in place, but the keel broke off. Don't know the boat, but it is supposed to have happened in the 1980's.

The boat was "Lady Pepperell", a modified Hunter 54 sailed by Tony Lush in the 1983 BOC Race (precursor to the Around Alone/Velux 5 Oceans). He was rescued in the Indian Ocean by Francis Stokes, a fellow competitor. The rigs stayed intact but the keel bolts broke.

SI Article

[knucklehead]

More stuff;Link

[Ajax]

Very interesting article, KH.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Psyché's Song, a Freedom-38 passing a Peterson 41 and a Catalina 38.

[Ryley]

Any thoughts on David Pedrick's Freedom 40?

I like the 40/40, but I love my (Mull) 45 more. I think the 40 may have higher performance, but in my opinion the 45's living space is better thought out.

The other "flaw" is that you apparently can't do a very tall freestanding mast with out carbon fiber which is of course expensive.

Beyond that:
I grew up in the Columbia Gorge and windsurfing was my first exposure to sailing so free standing wishbone rigs appeal to me on that sort of instinctual level that long over hangs and teak seem to appeal to the older crowd. As a physicist rigging just seems hideously inelegant.

I contend that the cost of the mast becomes a 'wash' compared to a "conventional" stayed rig when you add in the costs of the spreaders, turnbuckles, tangs, and wire, especially as the height of the mast goes up.

In some ways, the boats with freestanding rigs are less uniform in their engineering than the sloops. I would guess that's partly due to less pressure to conform to racing practice, and some part that they are all the result of some free-thinker who does things his own way.

I always felt the Freedoms had a hell of a lot line on them for what was supposed to be a simple boat. Freedom has used several designers (Hoyt, Mull, etc) and I'm sure each did things a little differently. I did see a Freedom with the topmast broken off, and I always wondered how they did that. Could have been a low bridge... Or a masthead chute.

We have a couple of Nonsuches in our marina. The owners like them a lot. The Wishbone takes away some of the adjustability because the foot of the sail becomes the vang.

The Hunter Vision series was pretty interesting to me, technically. The aluminum mast was very thin and flexible at the top. Those boats really were meant for beginners, and the rig was very simple. That tends to mean good for fair weather only. Someone at Hunter got huffy when a reviewer called them "bay sailers."

One should keep in mind that the majority of sailors have no clue about the nuances of sail control mentioned up-thread. If the main doesn't have major wrinkles,t then it looks good to them.

SemiSalt, what does a lot of line have to do with a lack of simplicity? It is true that when you run everything to the cockpit, you need more line. It also means that when you're in the gulf stream with 42 knots across the deck and 6 - 8 foot seas (as we were about 5 days ago), you don't have to put someone out of the cockpit to go to the mast to put a reef in. We have 4 winches. Two of them are in the cockpit and handle all of the sail raising, trimming, and reefing duties. The other two are simply for the cruising spinnaker sheets.

There are two Hunter Vision freestanders with aluminum masts at my marina, and both owners say the boats are too tender and not really a beginner's boat.

One of the best features of the freestanding rig which hasn't been mentioned yet is its ability to tune to the conditions. For instance, when we had 35 across the deck, the 42 knot gusts didn't knock the boat on its ear and keep the trimmers in a constant state of dumping the traveler, easing sheet and bringing it back just to keep the boat on its feet. Instead, the top of the mast bends away, the top of the sail flattens, and instead of putting the rail in the water, you get maybe another degree or two of heel. as the puff passes, the mast straightens and the boat powers out of the puff. It reduces crew fatigue and also the stresses on the boat.

I'd agree with the assessment that the 38 is faster than the 45 in less than 10 knots; however, when the wind gets to 12 - 15, the boats are quite comparable, and the 45 does better when it has been modified to carry the jib at the end of the bow sprit and when the main has the proper amount of roach.

There's a Wylie 30 that races in Off Soundings - or used to - didn't see them this year - and it is a really cool boat. I think it may be the only one on the east coast.

[Ryley]

Psyché's Song, a Freedom-38 passing a Peterson 41 and a Catalina 38.

Nice.. Hoyt gunmount spinnaker. cool setup.

[Ajax]

SemiSalt, what does a lot of line have to do with a lack of simplicity? It is true that when you run everything to the cockpit, you need more line. It also means that when you're in the gulf stream with 42 knots across the deck and 6 - 8 foot seas (as we were about 5 days ago), you don't have to put someone out of the cockpit to go to the mast to put a reef in. We have 4 winches. Two of them are in the cockpit and handle all of the sail raising, trimming, and reefing duties. The other two are simply for the cruising spinnaker sheets.

There are two Hunter Vision freestanders with aluminum masts at my marina, and both owners say the boats are too tender and not really a beginner's boat.

One of the best features of the freestanding rig which hasn't been mentioned yet is its ability to tune to the conditions. For instance, when we had 35 across the deck, the 42 knot gusts didn't knock the boat on its ear and keep the trimmers in a constant state of dumping the traveler, easing sheet and bringing it back just to keep the boat on its feet. Instead, the top of the mast bends away, the top of the sail flattens, and instead of putting the rail in the water, you get maybe another degree or two of heel. as the puff passes, the mast straightens and the boat powers out of the puff. It reduces crew fatigue and also the stresses on the boat.

I'd agree with the assessment that the 38 is faster than the 45 in less than 10 knots; however, when the wind gets to 12 - 15, the boats are quite comparable, and the 45 does better when it has been modified to carry the jib at the end of the bow sprit and when the main has the proper amount of roach.

There's a Wylie 30 that races in Off Soundings - or used to - didn't see them this year - and it is a really cool boat. I think it may be the only one on the east coast.

Wow, that's crazy. I'm curious- Do you think this builds up any kind of fatigue in the material over time?

[Innocent Bystander]

Properly designed - No. Bending is going to be well within the "elastic deformation" range of the tube (metal or carbon). Cycles are slow and low frequency so staying low on the stress/strain curve will keep the material happy for a long, long time.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Psyché's Song is still with its original owner and spars. Raced hard and put away wet for most of 21 years. Only sails and vang have been replaced several times.

[Ryley]

Wow, that's crazy. I'm curious- Do you think this builds up any kind of fatigue in the material over time?

What Innocent Bystander said. My Freedom 40 was a 1980 with two masts that weren't as technologically advanced as the 45's, and they passed survey with flying colors. That's not to say that Freedoms haven't lost masts. one lost one after running aground - the mast snapped from the jarring. However, it turned out he'd been hit by lightning the year before and didn't realize it. There were also a few masts that were lost because of manufacturing defects, but overall, the performance and longevity has been fantastic.

[SemiSalt]

There are two Hunter Vision freestanders with aluminum masts at my marina, and both owners say the boats are too tender and not really a beginner's boat.

My '89 Hunter sloop is also pretty tender. Evidently, that was Hunter's philosophy at the time.

[Ryley]

By the way, I hope nobody minds if I post a link to a video. This is my Freedom 45 crossing the gulf stream last week.

[Ajax]

By the way, I hope nobody minds if I post a link to a video. This is my Freedom 45 crossing the gulf stream last week.

I haven't had a chance to view this yet, but I'm interested. I didn't know you were sailing one of these.

[Innocent Bystander]

By the way, I hope nobody minds if I post a link to a video. This is my Freedom 45 crossing the gulf stream last week.

Doesn't look like a fun night.

[Ryley]

By the way, I hope nobody minds if I post a link to a video. This is my Freedom 45 crossing the gulf stream last week.

Doesn't look like a fun night.

well.. as the owner, it wasn't much of a fun night. I had just gotten off watch about an hour before things started to blow up. I got up when the wind generator started to howl. I had my bibs on when the closest strike hit the water not too far from the boat. I was wet the minute I stepped into the cockpit.

However, my friend Peter, who was driving, had a grin as wide as a mile during the worst part of the wind. Overall, things went extremely well, and on the other side of the wall, we had 18-20 broad reaching, no rain, pushing the boat at around 8.5 knots. Not at all shabby.

[blackjenner]

By the way, I hope nobody minds if I post a link to a video. This is my Freedom 45 crossing the gulf stream last week.

Doesn't look like a fun night.

I remember, once, during a lightning storm, having someone ask me if the very tall fiberglass poles we had to be near were conductive to lightning and, could we be struck.

I reminded him that, lighting is were electrical charges/potentials are are so high that it is making the very molecules of *air* conduct. I don't think fiberglass poles were much different.

He was not comforted.

[Ryley]

By the way, I hope nobody minds if I post a link to a video. This is my Freedom 45 crossing the gulf stream last week.

I haven't had a chance to view this yet, but I'm interested. I didn't know you were sailing one of these.

My wife and I have lived on the Freedom 45 for 4 years now (on a Freedom 40 Cat Ketch for 3 years before that)... but she won't let me race the house so I have an Elliott too.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

By the way, I hope nobody minds if I post a link to a video. This is my Freedom 45 crossing the gulf stream last week.

Congratulations! I never have presence of mind or a free and steady hand when the wind comes up!

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

My wife and I have lived on the Freedom 45 for 4 years now (on a Freedom 40 Cat Ketch for 3 years before that)... but she won't let me race the house so I have an Elliott too.

We call it 'racing with our furniture'.

[islandplanet]

Sponberg has some good stuff on his website about freestanding rigs.
IMHO, the Pedrick designed Freedoms were the most refined and likely best performing, however they have notably less interior volume.
We had a 39 Express ketch back in the 90's and she was a great boat offshore with a predictable weakness in light air upwind.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Sponberg has some good stuff on his website about freestanding rigs.
IMHO, the Pedrick designed Freedoms were the most refined and likely best performing, however they have notably less interior volume.
We had a 39 Express ketch back in the 90's and she was a great boat offshore with a predictable weakness in light air upwind.

Link?

[Bob Perry]

You might check the race record of Sponberg's cat ketch. It was far less than stellar.

I once found myself beating back to Seattle in my Valiant 40 in the company of a Freedom 38. I did not know the guy but you know how it goes, two boats going the same direction just attract each other and before long, its a race. Granted I had a fixed three plade prop but I had very good sails and I am not the world's worst sailor but that Freedom 38 gave me a damn good run for my money. Of course I wouldn't hold the old V-40 to be a paragon of upwind virtue but I knew how to make it go pretty well. Looking back now I'd like to think, if there had been a finish line, we would have crossed it together. Point being I would not discount the performance of the Freedom 38.

[Hike, Bitches!]

Bob, you had a Valiant 40? Have you ever talked to the designer? I think he's out your way there in the PNW. I hear he's a helluva nice guy!

[Bob Perry]

Mr. Bitches:
It's a long story. But I had a friend, Daryl, who had bought Valiant 40 no. 1, MOTHER NATURE, named after a comment I made when some expert questioned my stern shape, "Look at a duck's butt. Who's going to argue with Mother Nature" or something to that effect. He sold MN then later bought another V40, SEAHAWK. Daryl never sailed. He loved to putter around on the boat though and once and a while he would motor it aound. He was talking to me one day and mentioned the boat needed new sails. I'm not sure it even had sails at the time. I told that I could help with that and he said if you buy the sails we can be partners in the boat. Sounded good to me, so for a minimal investment I had a V-40 to use. Once Daryl had some visiting doctors in town as his guests and he asked me to take them sailing. Other than that Daryl did not use the boat. I did. The boat had almost no gear on board. I put in an Origo stove with oven and we had a knotmeter and depth sounder and yes, two VHF's. Bt that was it. We had the world's lightest and fastest V-40. My North sails were magnificent. But in time Daryl needed to sell the boat which he did and then he repaid me every cent I had put into the boat. One of the good guys. It was a great partnership. Daryl paid the bills and worked on the boat and I sailed the boat and got him the gear we needed at my discounts.

And yes, I have talked to the designer. He's a arrogant old curmudgeon.

[Jayavarman]

Sponberg has some good stuff on his website about freestanding rigs.
IMHO, the Pedrick designed Freedoms were the most refined and likely best performing, however they have notably less interior volume.
We had a 39 Express ketch back in the 90's and she was a great boat offshore with a predictable weakness in light air upwind.

Link?

Jeez, easiest google search ever, you're getting rusty.

http://www.sponbergy...n.com/Masts.htm

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Sponberg has some good stuff on his website about freestanding rigs.
IMHO, the Pedrick designed Freedoms were the most refined and likely best performing, however they have notably less interior volume.
We had a 39 Express ketch back in the 90's and she was a great boat offshore with a predictable weakness in light air upwind.

Link?

Jeez, easiest google search ever, you're getting rusty.

http://www.sponbergy...n.com/Masts.htm

Nope. Been rusty for some time now....

[Jayavarman]

Apply lube frequently.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Here's the world's fastest Freedom-38 starting in 15 knots last Wednesday. She was beaten to the finish by a multi-hull, a Hunter-37 and a Ranger-33. She's not the fastest in her fleet but those on board work the least, drink the coldest beer and have the best time.

[Ryley]

Bob,
I don't think Project Amazon ever got a fair shake. That project was always underfunded, especially once it came time to race. The premise and the science behind its design is pretty sound.

[Bob Perry]

Riley:
Maybe but it sure was ugly and money can't change that.

[U20guy2]

The only main comment and concern I have heard from Wylie owners is that the really large boom in big seas can be dragged across the wave face and create some depowering issues if things are really rough. But thats really the only big worry I've heard and all boats have some sort of foul weather aspect you need to keep an eye on.

I'm on SF Bay the unstayed masts are out racing all the time fast boats! And Highly respected boats in the SF sailing circles and they don't shy away from the daily summer heavy air we get in SF.

[Soñadora]

good god men! I have 11 stays!

there really is something weird/freaky/beautiful about those freestanding rigs.

do these rigs ever use running backs?

[pqbon]

The Wyliecat rigs are 100% unstayed. Staying the rig would remove the flex that is used to de-power the boat. The upper flex in the mast is part of the reason you don't need to reef the sail except in very high wind conditions. One of the boats I've sailed (a 30) has been sailed on the bay and race in ocean and reportedly never been reefed. The owner just lets the top of the mast bend and spill the air.

While I haven't used the sym package myself the photos I've seen show no stays are added to the 30 when you run the pole and chute. And the people I've talked to about it say that the rig doesn't change other then the additions of spin and poll halyards.

The 65 also has no means to add stays that I've seen when looking over the boat.

[SemiSalt]

Do these rigs ever use running backs?

You mean like the NFL?

I remember reading of a boat that was designed for a guy who wanted to race a catboat in PHRF or similar. I'm pretty sure the designer was Mark Ellis, but I'm not positive. The mast was unstayed except for an adjustable masthead backstay.

Never say never, but it's not usual.

[Soñadora]

Do these rigs ever use running backs?

You mean like the NFL?

okay...runningbackstays...

or r'ngback'st'y

[pqbon]

Never say never, but it's not usual.

I should have been more explicit that I was talking very specifically about the Wyliecat rig.

The nonsuch also appears to never be stayed but I know a lot less about the nonsuch.

[Rasputin22]

Riley:
Maybe but it sure was ugly and money can't change that.

Ugly and dangerous! I sailed on that monster and while the concept might have had merit, I couldn't imagine singlehanding it around the world. Fast when pointed downwind, but the gooseneck/gaff jaws for the booms looked like they would chew you right up if you got near them. Made me think of the stories about kids getting snagged and pulled into sugar cane mills... The retractable hydraulic engine/drive was so anemic the we had to hire a West Indian fisherman to tow us out of the harbor, it wouldn't buck a 15 knot headwind reliably. The day before, the fisherman had cast off the 200 ft towline at the same time as the crew on the boat, losing the valuable rode (it belonged to the fisherman!). He made it clear that he would not let his rope go and when we raised sail with him holding us head to wind, the foresail filled and the boat took off on a close reach accelerating impressively. As my mate and I finished up coiling the halyard and downhauling, I looked back to see that the crazy Russian owner at the mainmast screwing around and no one on the helm... The fisherman was pacing up about 50 feet away yelling for us to 'LOOSE THE ROPE, MON!!!) As the boat headed to a broad reach, I heard the battens pop over on the big main and it was like the afterburners kicked in. I headed for the towline cleated on the very end of the stem and as the boat reached perhaps 18-20 knots, the fishermans heavy wooden boat and outboard couldn't keep up and I yelled for him to let his end go, because our end had a extra locking wrap over it and I couldn't release against the pressure. Trying to hang on and reach my folding sailing knife and insisting that the fisherman best let his end go to no avail, the cat ketch caught a wave and the line went taut and end for ended the 21' fishing boat and it looked like a fishing plug jitterbugging back and forth being towed transom first. It eventually went down like a trawl board and the cleat ripped out and shot past our heads well ahead of us. Luckily the fisherman hadn't gotten hit and as I retrieved the precious towline, i saw him climb up on the upturned bow and cuss and gesture the most uncomplimentary Island epitaphs I've ever heard... I don't think the skipper was even aware of what had just happened until we got back to the cockpit and then insisted on hardening up and going back to assist. A couple of short tacks later we overshot the hapless fisherman and then JIBED back to help him. He saw us coming at him at about 20 knots again and dove for the bottom as our boom clipped the bow to leeward. I almost joined him as I had never seen such an unhandy sailing vessel with such a total fool in command but the Coast Guard arrived to help the fisherman and we settled down for a fast passage to Puerto Rico. The rest of the trip was equally an eyeraiser and I was glad to get off intact. The skipper's wife had arranged a local boat to assist up to get into the marina and docked fortunately as we could have never done it on our own. The whole time I was trying to imagine being alone on that beast... The skip then got reamed by the wife/girlfriend as the Coast Guard had contacted her and there was hell to pay for out adventure back in St Thomas. Skip was totally henpecked and she drug him off to her lair, and we never got our ride or fare for the ferry boat back to STT. I did bring the fisherman back his line only to find that he hadn't gotten paid for three days of playing tug for the cat ketch. THe crazt Russian didn't have the ball. budget, or sense to do a RTW and I wasn't surprised to hear later that he had bagged the whole affair.

Sorry, he was the crazy Hungarian, I just found this quote he made to Sponberg, and I'll second the comment, "he opted to head to Puerto Rico for refuge. As soon as he got in, he called me on the phone, and I swear, the very first words out of his mouth were, in his heavy Hungarian accent: “Ed-ic, ve have a problem vit dis boat.” I said, “Sebastian, what kind of problem?” He said, “It’s too fast!” He said, “She always goes 25 knots. Sometimes you don’t vant to go 25 knots, you only vant to go 12 knots. But she just up and goes anyvay!”

[Bob Perry]

22:
Thanks for that it was very interesting. Glad you lived to tell the tail.

[Rasputin22]

Glad you enjoyed that Bob, Sponberg was not as amused when I shared it with him....

[blackjenner]

Riley:
Maybe but it sure was ugly and money can't change that.

Bob, I will not argue looks with you for two reasons; 1) it's a matter of opinion and, 2) you are right. She isn't what I'd call pretty.

Either way, I read a little about her and did admire the brutal look and nature of the boat. It seemed like a beast. I'm reminded of a particular 750cc two stroke motorcycle that made 90 horsepower in the most unpleasant fashion imaginable. It was a blast to ride, if you survived. I had a friend that owned a Chrysler 300 with a 389 HP engine. Ugly but powerful. This boat seems similar.

Aside from looks (if those can be ignored for the sake of your answer), I wonder what you thought of the attempt at this design and the execution.

Because, frankly, my 90hp two-stoke motorcycle wasn't good looking. When you were pulling close to 100mph, and it was still trying to tear your arms out, you didn't care what it looked like.

[Soñadora]

Maybe everyone knows what Project Amazon is. Sometimes I feel pretty clueless around here. Thank god for the google.


http://www.sponbergy...ojectAmazon.htm

[blackjenner]

Maybe everyone knows what Project Amazon is. Sometimes I feel pretty clueless around here. Thank god for the google.


http://www.sponbergy...ojectAmazon.htm

Sorry about that. I didn't know about her until a few posts ago. Sorry for not providing some context.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

The Wyliecat rigs are 100% unstayed. Staying the rig would remove the flex that is used to de-power the boat. The upper flex in the mast is part of the reason you don't need to reef the sail except in very high wind conditions. One of the boats I've sailed (a 30) has been sailed on the bay and race in ocean and reportedly never been reefed. The owner just lets the top of the mast bend and spill the air.

This shot was taken a few years back when Wyliecat sent three single-handed unreefed Wyliecat-30s out in 35-plus knots, just to test their load limits.

When winds increased to over 40 knots, I am told, all three wishbone booms failed.

[Monster Mash]

The Wyliecat rigs are 100% unstayed. Staying the rig would remove the flex that is used to de-power the boat. The upper flex in the mast is part of the reason you don't need to reef the sail except in very high wind conditions. One of the boats I've sailed (a 30) has been sailed on the bay and race in ocean and reportedly never been reefed. The owner just lets the top of the mast bend and spill the air.

This shot was taken a few years back when Wyliecat sent three single-handed unreefed Wyliecat-30s out in 35-plus knots, just to test their load limits.

When winds increased to over 40 knots, I am told, all three wishbone booms failed.

Nowhere close to 35+ knts in that picture.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Riley:
Maybe but it sure was ugly and money can't change that.

Bob, I will not argue looks with you for two reasons; 1) it's a matter of opinion and, 2) you are right. She isn't what I'd call pretty.

Either way, I read a little about her and did admire the brutal look and nature of the boat. It seemed like a beast. I'm reminded of a particular 750cc two stroke motorcycle that made 90 horsepower in the most unpleasant fashion imaginable. It was a blast to ride, if you survived. I had a friend that owned a Chrysler 300 with a 389 HP engine. Ugly but powerful. This boat seems similar.

Aside from looks (if those can be ignored for the sake of your answer), I wonder what you thought of the attempt at this design and the execution.

Because, frankly, my 90hp two-stoke motorcycle wasn't good looking. When you were pulling close to 100mph, and it was still trying to tear your arms out, you didn't care what it looked like.

Comparing Project Amazon with a "750cc two stroke motorcycle" or a "Chrysler 300" is obscene. Here is a bar of soap to wash your mouth out.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

The Wyliecat rigs are 100% unstayed. Staying the rig would remove the flex that is used to de-power the boat. The upper flex in the mast is part of the reason you don't need to reef the sail except in very high wind conditions. One of the boats I've sailed (a 30) has been sailed on the bay and race in ocean and reportedly never been reefed. The owner just lets the top of the mast bend and spill the air.

This shot was taken a few years back when Wyliecat sent three single-handed unreefed Wyliecat-30s out in 35-plus knots, just to test their load limits.

When winds increased to over 40 knots, I am told, all three wishbone booms failed.

Nowhere close to 35+ knts in that picture.

Quite true.This shot was taken only on that occasion. Later in the day, I am told, the winds increased to over forty.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

Never say never, but it's not usual.

I should have been more explicit that I was talking very specifically about the Wyliecat rig.

The nonsuch also appears to never be stayed but I know a lot less about the nonsuch.

I have sailed both. The Nonsuch is a heavy cruiser. The Wylicat-30 is a performance racer/daysailor. Both are unstayed.

[pqbon]

Never say never, but it's not usual.

I should have been more explicit that I was talking very specifically about the Wyliecat rig.

The nonsuch also appears to never be stayed but I know a lot less about the nonsuch.

I have sailed both. The Nonsuch is a heavy cruiser. The Wylicat-30 is a performance racer/daysailor. Both are unstayed.

Yes - I'm aware they are different I was simply pointing out that the Wylie rig is never stayed and AFAIK neither is the Nonsuch. But I'm no expert on the Nonsuch.

[Soñadora]

Sorry about that. I didn't know about her until a few posts ago. Sorry for not providing some context.

Black, I reread what I wrote. Didn't mean to be a slam against you. Sorry about that. You weren't the one who mentioned this boat to begin with.

That's one thing about SA/CA; if I ever need to go somewhere to come down out of my ivory tower and feel humbled, this is the place.

That's tongue in cheak.

Sure, I really dig sailing and sailboats 'n shit, but I am nowhere near knowledgeable about this stuff as most people are around here.

[blackjenner]

Raputin22, that was a great story. It gave me a great grin to read it. Glad you survived intact.

[blackjenner]

Riley:
Maybe but it sure was ugly and money can't change that.

Bob, I will not argue looks with you for two reasons; 1) it's a matter of opinion and, 2) you are right. She isn't what I'd call pretty.

Either way, I read a little about her and did admire the brutal look and nature of the boat. It seemed like a beast. I'm reminded of a particular 750cc two stroke motorcycle that made 90 horsepower in the most unpleasant fashion imaginable. It was a blast to ride, if you survived. I had a friend that owned a Chrysler 300 with a 389 HP engine. Ugly but powerful. This boat seems similar.

Aside from looks (if those can be ignored for the sake of your answer), I wonder what you thought of the attempt at this design and the execution.

Because, frankly, my 90hp two-stoke motorcycle wasn't good looking. When you were pulling close to 100mph, and it was still trying to tear your arms out, you didn't care what it looked like.

Comparing Project Amazon with a "750cc two stroke motorcycle" or a "Chrysler 300" is obscene. Here is a bar of soap to wash your mouth out.

I'm talking about experiences that test our limits to control them. The Kawasaki H2 was entirely appropriate as an example. If you have ridden a modded one, you would know. The behavior of that boat sounds similar.


Here's your soap back. Why don't you shove that where the sun don't shine and clean out the channel from whence your clever little comment came?

[Soñadora]

Here's your soap back. Why don't you shove that where the sun don't shine and clean out the channel from whence your clever little comment came?

hehe

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

I'm talking about experiences that test our limits to control them. The Kawasaki H2 was entirely appropriate as an example. If you have ridden a modded one, you would know. The behavior of that boat sounds similar.


Here's your soap back. Why don't you shove that where the sun don't shine and clean out the channel from whence your clever little comment came?

Good advice. Taken!

[islandplanet]

Bob,
I don't think Project Amazon ever got a fair shake. That project was always underfunded, especially once it came time to race. The premise and the science behind its design is pretty sound.

I know the owner ran out of money which pretty much killed the chances for the boat to show the true potential of the rig. Another factor may have been growing pains. Some of you may remember a certain round the world racer named Ocean Planet that should dispel any theories about freestanding rigs not being able to sail competitively. It's also notable that Bruce Schwab was chief rigger at Sven's before he launched his successful ocean racing career with OP.

Although our current boat is conventionally rigged, I remain a fan of Freedom and other boats with freestanding carbon rigs. We would have considered a Freedom 44 when we were shopping but they rarely turn up on the west coast.

[Bob Perry]

Planet: I don't doubt that but in my opinion the design sucks. Look at that pic. Look at the transom. That is sucking. I think that boat was a poor design. I do not recall it impressing anyone in the race with it's speed. As I recall it dropped steadily back in the fleet until it finally dropped out. I'd rather spend my time studying winners.

I do not doubt that Eric can engineer a good free standing rig. He has proven that. But that is only one component of a yacht's make up.

[SemiSalt]

Look at that pic. Look at the transom. That is sucking.

As I recall, the owner had a novel (polite word for crackpot) idea about introducing air bubbles into the water flow under the boat. Presumably, the stern design is in aid of this particular quirk. I've never followed this project closely, but I've never heard ES back away from this idea, or blame the owner for the boat's lack of success. Perhaps he bought into it; perhaps he thinks the client deserves his loyalty.

[Bob Perry]

Semi:
I appreciate that.

How do you type that noise you make when you stick your tongue out a bit and blow thru your mouth kind of like a wet fart?
Just imagine I am making that noise.
It's a bad boat. I am not a Sponberg fan. He is not on my list of top 100 designers.
I told you. After Spike's death. No more Mr. Nice Guy. I've had it with that BS.

We live in a world where the accepted norm is positive reinforcement. The problem is that it's applied to Bull Shit. Some things are just plan bad. The world does not want honesty anymore. It's smoke and mirrors and lies today. Everyone gets a trophy. Holy Cow! even kids know better than that.

I once had a mother of one of my soccer players come up to me and ask why her kid was playing 6.5 minutes a game. She had times it and noted it on a card.
I told her, "Your kid is the worst player on our team."

I had asked the kids how do you want to do it. "Do you want to play for equal time or do you want play to win? We went around in a circle and each kid voted. It was unanimous, we play for equal time.
UNTIL IT GOT TO HER KID. He said "We play to win". The the other kids asked, "Can I change my vote?"

The next year that kid's parents asked specifically if their kid could be put on any team but mine. I knew the kid wanted to stay with the KILLER WHALES. We were the best.
The parents were fuckheads. The kid was a good kid and in time he imnproved. I know we palyed against him and my guys the KILLER WHALES wrere hard on him. But I liked that kid.

Can you imagine giving your kid over to me for coaching? Fact is I had a stable and loyal team with supportive parents for years. Of course it was soccer and few of the parents had a clue and they were just happy I was the one standing out in the rain and dark at 7pm trying got teach their kids soccer. I miss those days.

This has nothing to do with anything but I just like to write those stories. Writing amuses me.

I can hear the baby bald eagle squealing in my backyard ( almost). It acts as a centering device. My mandella.

[Great Red Shark]

And yes, I have talked to the designer. He's a arrogant old curmudgeon.

But we like him anyway.

Raputin - great tale. The real-life ones are always kookier than fiction.

Regarding unstayed rig boats - as I re-rig my conventional spar for the 3rd time now, one has to wonder about the economy of NOT having shrouds, turnbuckles, chainplates, etc - it's just the pesky 'conventional wisdom' keeps rearing it's ugly head and outperforming everything else.

Standard Marconi rigging is kinda like Democracy - it's the worst way to do things, execpt for everything else.

I am always greatly amused to go for a sail on an old Freedom25 - such an impressive accomodation on a 25-footer that sails so very well, given any significant wind speed.

[Bob Perry]

Shark:
I know an owner of a 25. He used to own valiant 40. He cruised that 25 all over until it fell apart and almost killed him. He had to be rescued. Literally.
Great boat? I think not.

It may have been a good design but it did not stand up to the pressure of hard cruising.
My pal now owns a POS PSC 25'er. It doesn't sail worth a damn but with engine and patience it gets him up and down the PNW to the outside of Vancouver Island every year. I know. He calls me almost every day.

" It's blowing 40......."
Right. But he makes it.

[palindrome]

Semi:
I appreciate that.

How do you type that noise you make when you stick your tongue out a bit and blow thru your mouth kind of like a wet fart?
Just imagine I am making that noise.
It's a bad boat. I am not a Sponberg fan. He is not on my list of top 100 designers.
I told you. After Spike's death. No more Mr. Nice Guy. I've had it with that BS.

We live in a world where the accepted norm is positive reinforcement. The problem is that it's applied to Bull Shit. Some things are just plan bad. The world does not want honesty anymore. It's smoke and mirrors and lies today. Everyone gets a trophy. Holy Cow! even kids know better than that.

I once had a mother of one of my soccer players come up to me and ask why her kid was playing 6.5 minutes a game. She had times it and noted it on a card.
I told her, "Your kid is the worst player on our team."

I had asked the kids how do you want to do it. "Do you want to play for equal time or do you want play to win? We went around in a circle and each kid voted. It was unanimous, we play for equal time.
UNTIL IT GOT TO HER KID. He said "We play to win". The the other kids asked, "Can I change my vote?"

The next year that kid's parents asked specifically if their kid could be put on any team but mine. I knew the kid wanted to stay with the KILLER WHALES. We were the best.
The parents were fuckheads. The kid was a good kid and in time he imnproved. I know we palyed against him and my guys the KILLER WHALES wrere hard on him. But I liked that kid.

Can you imagine giving your kid over to me for coaching? Fact is I had a stable and loyal team with supportive parents for years. Of course it was soccer and few of the parents had a clue and they were just happy I was the one standing out in the rain and dark at 7pm trying got teach their kids soccer. I miss those days.

This has nothing to do with anything but I just like to write those stories. Writing amuses me.

I can hear the baby bald eagle squealing in my backyard ( almost). It acts as a centering device. My mandella.

Absolutely right f*^& on why lead someone on just to stroke their opinion, no matter how flawed. We as a society have lost focus on reality.

"Yes mrs. Smith I am sure your kid will be a brilliant brain surgeon, they make wonderful eye glasses nowadays"

thanks for a dose of reality Bob

Pal

[Jose Carumba]

Semi:
I appreciate that.

How do you type that noise you make when you stick your tongue out a bit and blow thru your mouth kind of like a wet fart?
Just imagine I am making that noise.
It's a bad boat. I am not a Sponberg fan. He is not on my list of top 100 designers.
I told you. After Spike's death. No more Mr. Nice Guy. I've had it with that BS.

We live in a world where the accepted norm is positive reinforcement. The problem is that it's applied to Bull Shit. Some things are just plan bad. The world does not want honesty anymore. It's smoke and mirrors and lies today. Everyone gets a trophy. Holy Cow! even kids know better than that.

I once had a mother of one of my soccer players come up to me and ask why her kid was playing 6.5 minutes a game. She had times it and noted it on a card.
I told her, "Your kid is the worst player on our team."

I had asked the kids how do you want to do it. "Do you want to play for equal time or do you want play to win? We went around in a circle and each kid voted. It was unanimous, we play for equal time.
UNTIL IT GOT TO HER KID. He said "We play to win". The the other kids asked, "Can I change my vote?"

The next year that kid's parents asked specifically if their kid could be put on any team but mine. I knew the kid wanted to stay with the KILLER WHALES. We were the best.
The parents were fuckheads. The kid was a good kid and in time he imnproved. I know we palyed against him and my guys the KILLER WHALES wrere hard on him. But I liked that kid.

Can you imagine giving your kid over to me for coaching? Fact is I had a stable and loyal team with supportive parents for years. Of course it was soccer and few of the parents had a clue and they were just happy I was the one standing out in the rain and dark at 7pm trying got teach their kids soccer. I miss those days.

This has nothing to do with anything but I just like to write those stories. Writing amuses me.

I can hear the baby bald eagle squealing in my backyard ( almost). It acts as a centering device. My mandella.

Absolutely right f*^& on why lead someone on just to stroke their opinion, no matter how flawed. We as a society have lost focus on reality.

"Yes mrs. Smith I am sure your kid will be a brilliant brain surgeon, they make wonderful eye glasses nowadays"

thanks for a dose of reality Bob

Pal

I love it when you lay it on the line Bob, I really do. Honest criticism and opinions are a good thing.

[blackjenner]

Semi:
I appreciate that.

How do you type that noise you make when you stick your tongue out a bit and blow thru your mouth kind of like a wet fart?
...

Awesome answer, Bob.

[Rasputin22]

There was a prototype of the Freedom 32 design (cat ketch rig) that was built by C&C I believe. It was cold molded a friend of mine who worked on it was a top ranked windsurfer at the time. Garry Hoyt offered him the prototype after it was used as a plug for the production model mold for a modest price and very generous rebates if he would campaign the boat in the CORC, Caribbean Ocean Racing Curcuit. I think he got 5K knocked of the price for each race of the series and another 10K if he won cruising class overall for the whole series which ended in Antigua. Dave and his girlfriend (also a windsurfing womens champ) were joined by a Rasta 'wind doctor' who had an ample supply of smokeable wind telltales and they proceeded to very casually dominate the class and won the whole shebang without even breaking a sweat. It was no rocket upwind, but for runs and reaches, they would set a big masthead mizzen staysail tacked to the rail and then let the fore (mainsail) out well past 90 degrees to ahead of the mast in order to forereach. With the self vanging of the wishbone booms, the leach could be kept tight and the windflow was leach to luff on the foresail and it opened up the slot nicely and there was no blanketing of the mizzen or reacher. By sailing hot angles downwind similar to a sloop with a prod and assy spinaker they just blew the class away, plus some racing class boats as well. Jibes were a piece of cake and Garry was stoked at the publicity and made good on his financing deal as well. Hoyt later came up with the 'gunmount' spinnaker pole which was a neat idea that never really caught on, but it could work as a prod or sprit just as easily.

[kdh]

Semi:
I appreciate that.

How do you type that noise you make when you stick your tongue out a bit and blow thru your mouth kind of like a wet fart?
Just imagine I am making that noise.
It's a bad boat. I am not a Sponberg fan. He is not on my list of top 100 designers.
I told you. After Spike's death. No more Mr. Nice Guy. I've had it with that BS.

Bob, now it's my turn to kiss your ass.

You know this, but you are a Mr. Nice Guy. There's never any hate for hate's sake from you, just honesty, what we used to call "constructive criticism." And your "opinions" are pretty well informed at this point.

Your writing amuses me. Thanks for sharing.