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Freedom 38


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#101 Bob Perry

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 01:14 PM

KDH:
Thanks.
I was venting a bit last night after much of the day dealing with Spike's hospital trying to set up a meeting. Not fun. I'm not sure about the "no hate" thing. Wait till I stand in a room with the "doctor" who sent my kid home to die, telling him to "get some rest". But maybe you are right. It's not so much hate as it is extreme anger.

#102 blackjenner

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 02:50 PM

KDH:
Thanks.
I was venting a bit last night after much of the day dealing with Spike's hospital trying to set up a meeting. Not fun. I'm not sure about the "no hate" thing. Wait till I stand in a room with the "doctor" who sent my kid home to die, telling him to "get some rest". But maybe you are right. It's not so much hate as it is extreme anger.


Oh man, would I not want to be that doctor. Strength to you, Bob. I'm sure they will clearly understand your concerns.

#103 Ryley

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:57 PM

good god men! I have 11 stays! :blink:

there really is something weird/freaky/beautiful about those freestanding rigs.

do these rigs ever use running backs?


We have running backs on the 45, although for normal sailing they are not actually necessary. In our case they serve two purposes. 1) they keep the 68' mast from pumping a lot when we are under power in any kind of sea. 2) they help keep the mast in column when we set the cruising chute.

The top of the backs attach at the same height as the forestay, so I don't think they affect the ability of the rig to depower.

#104 islandplanet

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 09:48 PM

Planet: I don't doubt that but in my opinion the design sucks. Look at that pic. Look at the transom. That is sucking. I think that boat was a poor design. I do not recall it impressing anyone in the race with it's speed. As I recall it dropped steadily back in the fleet until it finally dropped out. I'd rather spend my time studying winners.

I do not doubt that Eric can engineer a good free standing rig. He has proven that. But that is only one component of a yacht's make up.



I would not debate the design but will argue that a properly designed freestanding rig can work exceedingly well. Bruce proved that very well with Ocean Planet and there's a lot boats with freestanding rigs successfully cruising.

We're starting a mainsail for an F-39 whose owners have been out non-stop since the late 1990's when they were dock neighbors of mine. The boat has performed well and has been quite manageable.

#105 Bob Perry

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 09:55 PM

Planet:
I agree and I don't think I ever said otherwise. I simply don't like Sponberg's design work as a whole.

#106 pbr1952

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:25 PM

I am a big fan of freestanding masts; auto-depowering, reliability, clean decks, lower cg than a stayed rig, less areodynamic drag, ability to sail deeper offwind without distorted mainsail shape from rigging, larger roach more efficeint mainsail shape, narrower sheeting angle for jib due to lack of rigging, no compression loads on hull and deck. I just finished a custom catamaran with one, which is a bit more challenging due to the increased righting moment. www.hytechmarine.com
Fastwater 52.

#107 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:28 PM

Attached File  terreplein.jpg   117.42K   103 downloadsAttached File  aumouillage.jpg   232.26K   100 downloads
I like Free Standing Rigs. I have done quite a few. Recently I found pictures of the 50' Millenium Falcon, one of my favorite. Now at Noumea, Nouvelle Caledonie. Built in France for a young couple, they sailed the boat to South America, Patagonians canals,Mexico, P.N.W, then on to Tahiti. The cat-ketch has the pecularities to be built in steel, with plywood deck and wooden spars.

#108 Ishmael

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 12:57 AM

Attached File  terreplein.jpg   117.42K   103 downloadsAttached File  aumouillage.jpg   232.26K   100 downloads
I like Free Standing Rigs. I have done quite a few. Recently I found pictures of the 50' Millenium Falcon, one of my favorite. Now at Noumea, Nouvelle Caledonie. Built in France for a young couple, they sailed the boat to South America, Patagonians canals,Mexico, P.N.W, then on to Tahiti. The cat-ketch has the pecularities to be built in steel, with plywood deck and wooden spars.


Nice looking boat, definitely an unusual keel. What drove that particular shape?

#109 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:42 PM


Attached File  terreplein.jpg   117.42K   103 downloadsAttached File  aumouillage.jpg   232.26K   100 downloads
I like Free Standing Rigs. I have done quite a few. Recently I found pictures of the 50' Millenium Falcon, one of my favorite. Now at Noumea, Nouvelle Caledonie. Built in France for a young couple, they sailed the boat to South America, Patagonians canals,Mexico, P.N.W, then on to Tahiti. The cat-ketch has the pecularities to be built in steel, with plywood deck and wooden spars.


Nice looking boat, definitely an unusual keel. What drove that particular shape?

The keel appears brutal in profile. One does not associate rectilinear shapes with speed. In this case, a marginal speed factor is being sacrificed for a better balance under sail. Lower the lead ballast as much as possible and offer volume for tankage.



#110 Nessun Dorma

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:55 PM

Bob, could you and YMT and others tell us laypeople why free standing rigs aren't seen more often? Why don't you design them? A lot of designers say that Free-standing rigs are inherently safer, simpler, and more aerodynamically efficient than conventional rigs. They claim safer because stayed rigs are held up by hundreds of little parts, any one of which could fail or slip out and cause the rig to fall down, where the free-standing mast is held up by just the partners and the heel fittings. I've also read that Free-standing rigs are more aerodynamically efficient because without wires, the sailplan is no longer defined and confined by the triangular shape bounded by the headstay and backstay. Is it simply that they look odd, so people don't want to but them? Are they less secure/safe? Cost more to build?

I really am curious. Perhaps its best for a new thread.

Planet:
I agree and I don't think I ever said otherwise. I simply don't like Sponberg's design work as a whole.



#111 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:37 PM


Saw one of these early in the week: Freedom 38

A free-standing rig this big, simply blows my mind. It looked so odd. Don't these boats also have rotating masts? What is the advantage to this? Why wasn't this concept more popular? What were the big flaws (if any)?

I wish I'd gotten pictures, but I was too busy sailing my own boat.


Psyché's Song has raced an average of forty club races a year for the past ten years. Loves heavy air. But 30 knots on Mother's Day was a tad excessive!

Posted Image


This boat has been placed on the market by her original owner.

#112 Ajax

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:53 PM

Aww, sorry to hear that. I hope she finds a good home. I really enjoyed this thread.

#113 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:53 PM

More Normal conditions, passing a Petersen-41 and a Catalina-38.

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#114 Ajax

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:59 PM

More Normal conditions, passing a Petersen-41 and a Catalina-38.



Doc, is that competing boat flying a blooper or have they let their spin halyard slip?:blink:

#115 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:37 PM

Aww, sorry to hear that. I hope she finds a good home. I really enjoyed this thread.

Nice thread & GR8 boat. It's just time for the owner to downsize.




#116 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:40 PM


More Normal conditions, passing a Petersen-41 and a Catalina-38.



Doc, is that competing boat flying a blooper or have they let their spin halyard slip?:blink:

This shot is taken from the leeward mark. So my response would have to be that they feel it necessary for an earlier dousing than does the precision quality of the Freedom's crew.

#117 ahl

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

No jib up, so they aren't dousing...

My question is: Can the Freedom's spinnaker pole get projected any further windward, or does it always stay like that in the middle? Does the pole slide through the mount?

#118 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:53 PM

No jib up, so they aren't dousing...

If you look closely, the Jib on the Freedom-38 is up. This crew is just discussing take-down at this point. Sail-handling Is so much easier on a Freedom-38. The gybes are easier than Lasers'.




#119 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:56 PM

My question is: Can the Freedom's spinnaker pole get projected any further windward, or does it always stay like that in the middle? Does the pole slide through the mount?

The pole is always used in the middle. Gybing is a non-event. The pole slides through the mount only when deploying and retraction.

#120 DB Cooper

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:26 PM


More Normal conditions, passing a Petersen-41 and a Catalina-38.



Doc, is that competing boat flying a blooper or have they let their spin halyard slip?:blink:


Looks like a halyard slip to me!

#121 Balder

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:13 AM

Last year I leased a Freedom 30 and lived aboard too. I have sailed the 38 some also. I raced the local club races with a crew of myself and 2 novices. We won our series handily. I did keep the canned and bulk food in a big tupperware bucket and leave it on the dock. I kept a lot of rope rode in the bow, with a small (but to PIYA regs for the boat)danforth in the "garage", thats what we call the cockpit locker on the Mull Freedoms. I could bunk 2-3 Sea Scouts in there for sure. I left the Inflatable at the slip too, otherwise all my gear and such was aboard.

We even went out and sailed the normal course on a night with about 27 knots when they cancelled the race. No distress, a fun (albeit wet, but not bad considering the short, steep chop) ride. This was my crews 4th time on a sailboat. They were used to the heel, and thought it was a fun time. So did I. Fun and Safe.

I am trying to find the article, but I learned something strange about these "cat-sloops". Best VMG to the windward mark in a beer can race is accomplished by pinching. I KNOW, I KNOW pinching is NEVER fast. But I read an early review of the 36, and I can't remember his name, but some olympic class sailor took one to KWRW. He found that by pinching up a bit, even though SOG went down, VMG went up. I confirmed this over the course of last summers racing and cruising with my handheld GPS. I will find the article I read and post it here.

It is true about the mast bend depowering the boat in puffs. It is NOT a substitute for reefing in heavy air though. For real long distance cruising the 38 had a triple reef main. Although the single line reefing the boat is rigged for has only two reefs, you would have to plan ahead to use the third reef unless you want to add another line/clutch. But hopefully you are paying attention to the weather if are out there.

The tiny little table cloth of a jib still made a BIG difference to have it properly sheeted when on the wind, and of course halyard tension too.

No rotating mast.

The 30 had more accomodations than ANY boat that size I have been on. 5'4" berth in the quarter stateroom. The "treetrunk" of a mast on the 30, 36, 38 is much more at home in the v berth than a typical mast is in the dinette.

With the ease of shorthanding, great interior volume, lack of standing rigging (ie failure points), great build. The Freedin 38' is on our short list. We hope to purchase within 2 years and start our cruising life style.

I am not SO sold on the free standing rig that I won't consider others, and I would never call someone a fool for having a standard rig - But they DO get 2 thumbs up from us!

#122 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 03:39 PM

It is true about the mast bend depowering the boat in puffs. It is NOT a substitute for reefing in heavy air though.

In our '38, we don't have to reef below 30 knots. And that's with a custom-enhanced roach on our mainsail! We frighten other boats in our fleet with our mast bend. More than 30 knots I'll just call it a day. The more it blows the fewer crew needed. We don't risk spinnakers over 20 knots. When it blows less than 9 knots, that's when we have to add human preventors.

#123 Balder

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 02:53 AM



It is true about the mast bend depowering the boat in puffs. It is NOT a substitute for reefing in heavy air though.

In our '38, we don't have to reef below 30 knots. And that's with a custom-enhanced roach on our mainsail! We frighten other boats in our fleet with our mast bend. More than 30 knots I'll just call it a day. The more it blows the fewer crew needed. We don't risk spinnakers over 20 knots. When it blows less than 9 knots, that's when we have to add human preventors.


I didnt get to try the 38 in heavy air. The 30 we found reefing at about 22-24 best. never made it to the second reef and were out at about 30 at least once.

Also I didnt mean to say 'the 38 has 3 reefs' rather 'the 38 I used had 3 reefs' Our plan includes going offshore. I think that 3 reefs are in order on that big main.

The OP also asked about where does the courtesy flag go. There was a little padeye mounted up the mast with a wee block, the line tying off at the stbd stanchion or life line for the courtesy flat.

And this brings up my question, how do you attach something to these masts? like if you want to add a hydraulic boomvang. Or, even more important with that huge main, a track for a storm trysail? Maybe the plan would be no trysail and just lay ahull? lots of windage for a 38'.

#124 Solen

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:44 AM

There is not a great need for a hydraulic boom vang on the Freedoms except convenience because you really don't use the vang until the boom is outside the range of the traveler - it is far easier to let the main sheet do the heavy lifting - and that way the vang can be pre-set for the tensions at the next level of boom extension.

I did however lead the boom vang back along the other lines to a simple cam cleat ( I could tune by hand on my 21) on a larger boat I would add a couple turns on the vang if need be to keep the effort modest but keep the rigging simple.

Without the Jib it easy and often beneficial to swing the boom out to about 85 degrees - more than that and the gooseneck tended to get in the way and unbotton itself from the mast - I tried that in a blow but it was remarkable unexciting.

The ultimate upgrade would be yo add a rotating gooseneck and fly the lower part of the sail on rings so it can rotate as well (use the track above the job/spin halyards) - that would make a significant inprovement in the flow around the mast.

It looks about like this drawing I made for the Freedom board years ago....... (it is best to do this when you are out alone - some passengers get really weird when stuff happens - maybe racers are better)

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#125 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:31 AM

The OP also asked about where does the courtesy flag go. There was a little padeye mounted up the mast with a wee block, the line tying off at the stbd stanchion or life line for the courtesy flat.

And this brings up my question, how do you attach something to these masts? like if you want to add a hydraulic boomvang. Or, even more important with that huge main, a track for a storm trysail? Maybe the plan would be no trysail and just lay ahull? lots of windage for a 38'.


What's courtesy flag? What good is that?Posted ImagePosted Image
A hydraulic boomvang was one the first things we bought as soon as we commissioned the boat. Absolutely necessary for the proper shape. You can't drill into the carbon fiber mast without compromising its "warranty".Posted ImagePosted Image The vang is affixed with a collar around the base of the mast.

#126 Balder

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:46 AM

Solen- interesting Idea. I was thinking of the hydraulic vang for use as a boom lift - to get away from a topping lift while off shore. Must have a spare main halyard too. Also too not have to lift the boom with the main while going up, since the main is so big(heavy) already.

And good thing you keep your crayons on board - look out for that spirit too!

#127 Solen

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

I had to do a "mouse drawing" as my crayons had melted and I had trouble scanning my Etch-A-Sketch drawings.

You are right about lift - I sailed mostly solo in the Freedom so I used the lazy jacks for holding the boom up and parked it off to the side and put up with the saggy look for 20+ years.

A boom lift would be helpful for racing as it could keep the boom from weighing the sail down and from pulling the roach across the center-line, I expect that is why Doc likes it. Being a cruiser I didn't add it because it would become useful at the same time it was a good idea to turn the motor on.

I actually made an offer on a F38 but the owner was still in love with it - I would have promptly re-rigged it to fly the mainsail away (back) from the mast. I tried that on the little boat and it worked nicely.

Eric Spoonberg did most of the Freedom mast designing - I expect he would tell you to add a fiberglass reinforcement collar for attaching a vang similar to the one for the boom.

#128 Balder

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:15 AM

I had to do a "mouse drawing" as my crayons had melted and I had trouble scanning my Etch-A-Sketch drawings.

You are right about lift - I sailed mostly solo in the Freedom so I used the lazy jacks for holding the boom up and parked it off to the side and put up with the saggy look for 20+ years.

A boom lift would be helpful for racing as it could keep the boom from weighing the sail down and from pulling the roach across the center-line, I expect that is why Doc likes it. Being a cruiser I didn't add it because it would become useful at the same time it was a good idea to turn the motor on.

I actually made an offer on a F38 but the owner was still in love with it - I would have promptly re-rigged it to fly the mainsail away (back) from the mast. I tried that on the little boat and it worked nicely.


Also I was thinking the hydraulic vang could be for safety at sea in case of a parted Haly'd. Then I could also have a spare haly'd/topping lift with only 1 line instead of 2. Otherwise its a topping lift or the lazy jacks as the only way to hold up the boom. and the Lazy Jacks are poorly rigged to really use this way. I would fix that lazy jack right away anywhoo; for cockpit access from the back of the boom.

I only turn on the engine if it's deadcalm or if there is a real deadline..... and then only sometimes.

Do you have a diagram or something about flying the main back from the mast? Are you concerned about airflow b/c of the large Diameter mast? Am I missing something else?

I want this one right now. But alas, it will wait for about 2 more years.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1988/Freedom-Yachts-38-2181616/British-Virgin-Islands

#129 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:29 PM


I had to do a "mouse drawing" as my crayons had melted and I had trouble scanning my Etch-A-Sketch drawings.

You are right about lift - I sailed mostly solo in the Freedom so I used the lazy jacks for holding the boom up and parked it off to the side and put up with the saggy look for 20+ years.

A boom lift would be helpful for racing as it could keep the boom from weighing the sail down and from pulling the roach across the center-line, I expect that is why Doc likes it. Being a cruiser I didn't add it because it would become useful at the same time it was a good idea to turn the motor on.

I actually made an offer on a F38 but the owner was still in love with it - I would have promptly re-rigged it to fly the mainsail away (back) from the mast. I tried that on the little boat and it worked nicely.


Also I was thinking the hydraulic vang could be for safety at sea in case of a parted Haly'd. Then I could also have a spare haly'd/topping lift with only 1 line instead of 2. Otherwise its a topping lift or the lazy jacks as the only way to hold up the boom. and the Lazy Jacks are poorly rigged to really use this way. I would fix that lazy jack right away anywhoo; for cockpit access from the back of the boom.

I only turn on the engine if it's deadcalm or if there is a real deadline..... and then only sometimes.

Do you have a diagram or something about flying the main back from the mast? Are you concerned about airflow b/c of the large Diameter mast? Am I missing something else?

I want this one right now. But alas, it will wait for about 2 more years.

http://www.yachtworl...-Virgin-Islands

You can have mine right now. Complete with fully operating spinnaker gear and racing mainsail. I'll even throw in cockpit cushions. But no dodger. I won't go that far. Now that we're repainted & listed, I am enjoying racing das boot more and more.




#130 Solen

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:49 AM

Heres a powerpoint by Gio Schouten a duchman who modified his Englisg Freedom 35 (33 US). I think he posted more info on one of the Freedom boards and was written up elsewhere - anyway the linked powerpoint show it well.

My experimentation suggested that some of the benefit comes from the sail falling out towards the lee side of the mast - this is also borne out in research that is commonly available - when I "tidied it up" using straps to the sail track the benefit was less.

I only had one boat to experiment on but there are clear benefits, some of which can be tried w/o altering the rig using a few free style rigging tricks.

http://www.freedomya...b2db8ec63881624

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#131 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:14 PM

.

And this brings up my question, how do you attach something to these masts? like if you want to add a hydraulic boomvang.


You can't drill into the carbon fiber mast. Instead, bolt a robust, two-piece collar around the base of the mast, tight enough that it does not rotate. Attach the hard vang to that collar.

#132 Ryley

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:06 PM


.

And this brings up my question, how do you attach something to these masts? like if you want to add a hydraulic boomvang.


You can't drill into the carbon fiber mast. Instead, bolt a robust, two-piece collar around the base of the mast, tight enough that it does not rotate. Attach the hard vang to that collar.


For the boom vang, definitely the way to go is a collar. Garhauer has a really nice solution for this. However, it is absolutely untrue that you can't drill into the masts. The tracks on my freedom 40 and 45 are pop-riveted in, the steaming light is drilled and tapped, as are the gooseneck, the radar reflector, and the 4 folding steps on the front of the mast to get up for the sail cover.

#133 Diarmuid

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:16 PM

Slow it down, Ryley. You are supposed to wait eleven months between posts on this thread.

#134 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:15 PM

Attached File  791-pic4.jpg   52.79K   14 downloadsThe Gio Schouten solution for clean flow around the free standing mast looks interesting. Especially with the introduction of full battens, something that I cannot do with the system that I call "sock Sail".

#135 MadRussian

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:02 PM

Isn't it same idea as Presto?

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#136 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:44 PM

Isn't it same idea as Presto?

1331748719-w124-PHIL-CAROL400tx836w.jpg

Looks like a Sparhawk-36, only lighter!



#137 bert s

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:04 PM

Visited a friend in San Diego on his Cheoy Lee years ago. He was working for a couple of local boat shops bolstering his cruising kitty and was tuned up on the local scene. He had met a person who had bought a Catalina with a unstayed rig. The guy was a survivalist type (new to sailing) and had decided to "Move to Guadalcanal" (another story) to escape the end of civilization. He had left San Diego for Hawaii. Pete had his SSB on and was on a schedule to talk to this fella. He got into some choppy conditions and everyone started puking. As the boat started working the joint where the mast was bolted down started to loosen. Apparently a flange at the base of the mast with big cap screws into fiberglass. The bolts rongered out the holes. He was in a panic with the seasickness and worry about loosing the mast. CG got involved, ship was diverted, they abandoned into the liferaft, and were barely rescued. The Catalina was still floating.

The really funny thing was the guy had sold everything and bought gold. They took it in the life raft when they abandoned. When the raft contacted the barnacle encrusted ship, it was shredded. The occupants were rescued, barely, but the gold sunk the shredded life raft. Wouldn't have believed the story if I hadn't been listening on the sideband as it occured.



#138 dionski

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:31 PM

How much gold and whereabouts were they? Just idle curiosity....






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