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Tiger vs J111


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#1 biogrove

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:05 PM

Kent, Al and crew had our number on Sunday but this spinnaker ride was a highlight of the weekend for sure. It was great competing against you guys.
Sunday, June 11th, 2011 Chicago NOOD

The J111's are beautiful boats, the mixed section starts made for some interesting sailing.

Posted Image

#2 porttack

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 03:55 PM

How is the Tigers speed compared to the J111? Would assume the Tiger is alittle slower upwind pretty even downwind? thought the J111 was gonna be alot faster than it is turning out to be.

#3 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:10 PM

How is the Tigers speed compared to the J111? Would assume the Tiger is alittle slower upwind pretty even downwind? thought the J111 was gonna be alot faster than it is turning out to be.


Really? I'm no brain surgeon, but isn't the Tiger half the weight with almost identical DW sail area?

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#4 StayinStrewn

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:42 PM

pretty much, Clean

#5 biogrove

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:54 PM


Kent, Al and crew had our number on Sunday but this spinnaker ride was a highlight of the weekend for sure. It was great competing against you guys.
Sunday, June 11th, 2011 Chicago NOOD

The J111's are beautiful boats, the mixed section starts made for some interesting sailing.

Posted Image


Bio

The link to the picture doesn't work.



Hmmm - shows up clear for me as a diplayed picture not a link. I'll try to give you a link - http://cultofku.com/...47235071260.jpg




#6 porttack

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:56 PM

So any thoughts? I think it should be a pretty sad circumstance if the brand new Jboats isn't any fast than a Tiger considering it has to be 3x as much money.

#7 TigerinCT

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 08:05 PM

Upwind in >8 knots I'd bet on the j.
Reaching in >8 knots I'd bet on the j
DDW the Tiger should win

All of the nice are boat to boat not handicap expectations, but I haven't seen the j in person yet.

#8 TigerinCT

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 12:24 AM

Sorry about the iPhone auto-correct edits...

I'd add that I think the j is probably an honest 4x of a FT10 on a like for like cost basis.

#9 dolphinmaster

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:55 AM

Bio G,

did the Tiger sail through the lee of the 111?

#10 tootall519

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 02:36 AM

Bio G,

did the Tiger sail through the lee of the 111?


Yes, but it took a while.

#11 ClimbnSail

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 08:02 PM

freakin awesome!

Anybody get any pics of toy tiger with chute? Just curious to see what it looks like from off the boat.

#12 movable ballast

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 09:33 PM

And the Tiger was using the "little red" chute to boot.

We have a fence post (J111) in San Diego. I recall one race where we competed directly against the 111. Downwind we were quite a bit faster, upwind they were but we were light on crew that day so the over powered Tiger fell over a bit. wind range was 8-12.

#13 tootall519

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:03 AM

Actually, the chute is a latest Gen Ullman and it is fast.

#14 movable ballast

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 03:08 PM

Actually, the chute is a latest Gen Ullman and it is fast.


oops my bad.

#15 Kmag

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 04:57 PM

Actually, the chute is a latest Gen Ullman and it is fast.


Good to hear!

#16 Editor

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:22 PM

i would guess that a good tiger will smoke the 111 with kites in light to medium, and the 111 will be faster than the ft upwind in anything over 8. the 111 is a nice looking boat and i'd like to see one with some good sails set up for sd to know for sure how they go. what's more interesting however, is that the 111 is so frigging expensive, yet they sell a bundle of 'em, and the ft is cheap and fast, and despite years of good od racing, and winning virtually every phrf race in socal, for all intents and purposes it is virtually a dead class. i suppose perception is reality. and of course it matters that one is a well-turned out, properly marketed boat, and the other wasn't.

#17 MoMP

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:53 PM

i would guess that a good tiger will smoke the 111 with kites in light to medium, and the 111 will be faster than the ft upwind in anything over 8. the 111 is a nice looking boat and i'd like to see one with some good sails set up for sd to know for sure how they go. what's more interesting however, is that the 111 is so frigging expensive, yet they sell a bundle of 'em, and the ft is cheap and fast, and despite years of good od racing, and winning virtually every phrf race in socal, for all intents and purposes it is virtually a dead class. i suppose perception is reality. and of course it matters that one is a well-turned out, properly marketed boat, and the other wasn't.

BMW or Kia. Which would you rather be seen driving? To some it doesn't matter. To sum, they don't want what a BMW says. To some, thats exactly what they want and will pay the premium for the brand.

#18 Editor

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:56 PM

that analogy would only be accurate if the kia actually had superior performance in a fairly large range of conditions like the tiger does over the 111. if the tiger had been built right from the start, had someone who knew what they were doing run the class, the boat would be huge. using your auto comparison, hyundai is gaining market share - they now build cars that look decent, perform decent and are priced less than their competitors, sometimes significantly. their genesis is a good example. why buy a 5 series for $20k more? if a tiger had the same kind of build quality, why would you pay $150,000 more for a 111? you wouldn't.

#19 doooouglus

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 11:41 AM

that analogy would only be accurate if the kia actually had superior performance in a fairly large range of conditions like the tiger does over the 111. if the tiger had been built right from the start, had someone who knew what they were doing run the class, the boat would be huge. using your auto comparison, hyundai is gaining market share - they now build cars that look decent, perform decent and are priced less than their competitors, sometimes significantly. their genesis is a good example. why buy a 5 series for $20k more? if a tiger had the same kind of build quality, why would you pay $150,000 more for a 111? you wouldn't.



Well said Ed!

One other thing that I have noticed that there is a lack of in the Tiger Class that I have experienced in other classes that I have been involved in...

Promotion, promotion... and then there is of course... promotion!

Doug

#20 Kmag

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 04:22 PM

that analogy would only be accurate if the kia actually had superior performance in a fairly large range of conditions like the tiger does over the 111. if the tiger had been built right from the start, had someone who knew what they were doing run the class, the boat would be huge. using your auto comparison, hyundai is gaining market share - they now build cars that look decent, perform decent and are priced less than their competitors, sometimes significantly. their genesis is a good example. why buy a 5 series for $20k more? if a tiger had the same kind of build quality, why would you pay $150,000 more for a 111? you wouldn't.


I fail to understand why there are not more in SO Cal.

#21 movable ballast

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 05:02 PM

I think it's hard to compare the two boats, the 111 has a full nice interior whereas the Tiger is a shell. The amount of additional expense it would have taken to make the Tiger reliable out of the box would have been minimal. But when the SA family (and Bob Perry) designed the Tiger we wanted a giant killer and we got it. When the forum discussed the boat design how many people wanted a nice salon and a gally, not many. So we got what we designed. A take no prisoners kick ass boat but with no amenities that might drive up price up or slow the boat down. I think the analogy is closer to a GT mustang Vs BMW M3. The mustang can run with the M3 but the fitting and finish is just not quite the same.
the Tiger is a blue collar working mans muscle boat and the 111 is a white collar super boat.

As for the class, who knows. Ed is tired of kicking everyones arse but I think the rest of us are having fun still, but the boat has a narrow market niche, it's rough hewn image and over powered sailplan is not for everyone (the shots of the Tiger yard sale in the last NOODs come to mind). Most people don't want that much excitment... but the boat will allways appeal to those of us that do.

#22 movable ballast

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 05:24 PM

Attached File  11NOODSUN798.jpg   131.06K   318 downloads

Oh yeah this is the one...

#23 Monster Mash

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:07 PM

But when the SA family (and Bob Perry) designed the Tiger we wanted a giant killer and we got it



Tigers are cool boats for sure but denfinately not giant killers here in the bay area.

#24 CazzaRanda

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:32 PM

In the right conditions once in a while we may get a shot at it, even if the level of our skills is nowhere close to the boats sailing in socal. When we did the NOODs last year we were shown the transom of all the other tigers most of the time... In winds the FT10 is a handful, but with a good crew I'm convinced it would do well up here as well...

Four years later we're still having a lot of fun though, a moment before the shot near Alcatraz was taken the speedo showed 18+ sustained, with reefed main and shy kite... :)

Cazza

But when the SA family (and Bob Perry) designed the Tiger we wanted a giant killer and we got it



Tigers are cool boats for sure but denfinately not giant killers here in the bay area.

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#25 redboat

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:03 PM

In the right conditions once in a while we may get a shot at it, even if the level of our skills is nowhere close to the boats sailing in socal. When we did the NOODs last year we were shown the transom of all the other tigers most of the time... In winds the FT10 is a handful, but with a good crew I'm convinced it would do well up here as well...

Four years later we're still having a lot of fun though, a moment before the shot near Alcatraz was taken the speedo showed 18+ sustained, with reefed main and shy kite... :)

Cazza


But when the SA family (and Bob Perry) designed the Tiger we wanted a giant killer and we got it



Tigers are cool boats for sure but denfinately not giant killers here in the bay area.



That is the definition of a shy kite.

#26 Great Red Shark

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 01:14 AM

Positively bashful, I'd say.

But seriously, it's hard to cross the Rhode Island mafia ! When it comes to re-assuring a prospective yacht-owner, the fact is BUYING the boat is a smaller expense than it seems and commissioning, equipping, maintaining and campaigning can quickly approach the boat's price, so saving $ on the boat CAN be a very false economy ( witness any pimped pos you know ) - so it was probably a fairly easy up-sell when a broker could point to the fire-sale prices some of the FT sold for after the second year or so ( pointing to the preception of a greatly reduced re-sale value). The off-putting manner of the first builder notwithstading (which was more than enough for me to want little to do with the project early on )

#27 Editor

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 06:20 AM

ah, to think of what could have been...had stevens spent just a fraction more to turn out a boat that wasn't fucked upon delivery (and also charged a bit more, which given how cheap the thing was, nobody would have even noticed), had he not derailed the class direction with his ridiculous insistence on those fucking awful neil pryde sails, had he gotten a few good dealers in a few key markets, gotten sailmakers involved early on to get their customers interested in the boat, there is no telling how big and successful the class might have been. though encouraged by a few people, he didn't do any of those things and look at the sad state of affairs that exists today. there hasn't been a new boat added to the us market in what seems like years, the so cal fleet, at least, is losing enthusiasm (couldn't get a fleet for lbrw, for example), and despite the fact that those of us who own and sail them know what superb light to medium air boats they are, there is zero growth here in so cal. in fact, the participation numbers are getting smaller.

it hasn't helped that the 7.5 was stillborn and the 13.8, despite what looked to be a potentially really good boat with an attractive price point never got off the drawing board. but i believe that much of that is a direct result of both the real and perceived reality of the execution of the ft 10 as a class. despite some really good people trying to do all they could (tim chin, phil infilise, paul macperson just to name a few), the class was hamstrung by hiptrader, a lack of a real leader who understood the game, and by a product that had woeful early quality control issues.

for many of us, four years and a shit ton of racing miles later, our boats are still together, are just as much fun to sail as ever, and in their conditions, capable of winning any race, and that makes the reality of the state of the class even more disturbing. that this class didn't take off is a direct result of the failure of hiptrader to follow even the basic proven paths to od success. a real shame.

#28 Monster Mash

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 06:33 AM

Nuff said :ph34r:

#29 StayinStrewn

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 12:22 PM

So are people throwing in the towel now? Seems like Tom was mentioning in the 7.5 thread they are going to dump some money into the program...will be interesting to see what the plan is to salvage both classes!

How about a bit if redux - same design but improved layup schedule where necessary and appropriate fittings, etc?

Relaunch the class w an improved boat??

#30 doghouse

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 08:39 PM

I'm glad that everyone else has finally figured out Stevens is an asshat.

I hope they do dump some money into getting the class going again, it is a great avenue for getting people into boat ownership more economically.

#31 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 08:53 PM

Yeah we are all so smart after the fact.
Stephens an "asshat"? Have you ever met the man? Maybe in your little world that's not necessary. In mine it is.
Bill Stephens is gone. It's all Tom now. But without Bill there would have been no FT10m.

Go on and dump on the project all you like. You are a web site anonymous no name. After all that's the SA style to a T. I tend to think it's why SA exists. So little guys can finally get heard even if they have nothing to say.

I'd rather talk to the owners who love their boats and there are plenty of them. Just check out the Australian fleet.

#32 doghouse

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 09:24 PM

wtf?

#33 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 09:28 PM

You got that right.

#34 doghouse

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 09:33 PM

:unsure:

#35 Kapt'n Kirk

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 09:39 PM

Bob, you are so right. If any of these so called experts contributed a fraction of what a guy like Bill Stevens did for the yachting industry.. then we'd all be better off. We got the boat we designed and yes there were some teething issues but it's way easier to criticise from the safty of your keyboard then really contribute to the success of something. I guess stiring up a shit storm gets more hits to a web site than quietly solving issues amoungst the owners who paid retail. Is the class dead? I don't know but I do know I've still got a hell of a boat that I will enjoy sailing with my friends and family for a long time to come.

#36 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 09:59 PM

Thank you Kirk.

#37 doghouse

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 10:05 PM

Well, I'm officially flabbergasted. I haven't the foggiest how I can be accused of dumping on the project in a post immediately preceded by me saying I though it was a great way to get people into boats.

I see nothing has changed in this forum.

As far as me, I am pretty damn far from anonymous. My every move is pretty well documented here. Next up is Chicago, for the Mac race. Slip J21, Burnham Harbor. If you are in the area please come by and I will tell you face to face how much of a cockhead Bill Stevens is. Bring him along and I will tell him too, but I am fairly confident he knows how I feel after all of our exchanges though various mediums. If you want to know what projects I am involved with, use the search feature, they are all laid out in excruciating detail in the SA forums. Or click a link in my signature.

Carry on. I hope that all the other folks have a great time with their boats regardless.

-Graham

#38 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 10:26 PM

Ok you can take the knife out now.

#39 Kapt'n Kirk

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 10:27 PM

Dog, I was not responding to your post in particular but the chorus of hindsighters that proceeded you as well as yours. I don't understand why someone like yourself who can campaign and write the checks for a kick ass highend yacht like the Farr 36 would need to even bother with our FT world to begin with. Bill risked considerable amounts of HIS money bringing the Tiger to market and I'm sure he would be the first to admit he'd take a do over on some of the aspects and issues surrounding this project. Sitting at work on a Saturday so I can continue to pay for my Kia affords me the time to wallow in the mud for an hour or two but be thankful for what you got. I don't see TP52 owners shitting all over the Farr 36 on a regular basis on these forums.

#40 doghouse

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 10:35 PM

Dog, I was not responding to your post in particular but the chorus of hindsighters that proceeded you as well as yours. I don't understand why someone like yourself who can campaign and write the checks for a kick ass highend yacht like the Farr 36 would need to even bother with our FT world to begin with. Bill risked considerable amounts of HIS money bringing the Tiger to market and I'm sure he would be the first to admit he'd take a do over on some of the aspects and issues surrounding this project. Sitting at work on a Saturday so I can continue to pay for my Kia affords me the time to wallow in the mud for an hour or two but be thankful for what you got. I don't see TP52 owners shitting all over the Farr 36 on a regular basis on these forums.


Point of clarification, I don't own the Farr 36, I run it. Next up is a Farr 400 program. My boat is currently an 18' skiff. I don't come in here for anything but to see what is going on, as I have said repeatedly, I think the FT was and is a good thing and I am interested in making sailing better from opti's to maxis. And honestly, my budget would be perfect for a FT 7.5. I wish it had taken off.

There has been nothing hindsight about anything I have said, I said I didn't like Bill before this started, and I feel that way now that he is gone. I have had many exchanges with him, an honestly, he has been a complete asshole to me every time, bar none.

#41 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 10:58 PM

Dog:
I just spent the afternoon with a doctor going over the details of my son's autopsy.
I am not in the best of moods.
So I have some advice for you:
HTFU!

#42 doghouse

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:00 PM

I'm just perplexed Bob. No hurt feelings.

I'm sorry for your day.

#43 Kapt'n Kirk

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:36 PM

Bob, Sailing Prowler at Whidbey is my opportunity to feel my bro year after year. My dad had to go through what you have and as a dad I hope I never do. Dog, we don't have to like everyone but the honorable would respect those who have acomplished the kind of things Bill has and strive to do as much, hopefully better. If you really don't like Bill for what ever reason you may have be the bigger man and keep it between the two of you and not feel the need to share it with the world.

#44 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:44 PM

Dog:
No worries.
I am grateful for your input here.
It's been a hard day for me and a hard three days looking towards this day. I should stay off SA on these days.
I am going thru shit that I hope yu will never, ever experience.

It's all good.
It's sailing and people that are passionate about sailing.

Trust me. Bill has been thru his own world of hell. Guys like us relate.

Now excuse me while I go and HTFU!

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#45 biogrove

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 02:20 AM

The first time I sailed on the FT10 was a few years ago on the final day at the Chicago Verve. I was the extra guy on a forecasted windy day. The team was in 3rd behind two Melges 32 teams with highly capitalized programs. We did well in the two races we got in that last day and pulled a nice jibe under spinnaker shooting the gap on some Farr 40's that were also approaching the downwind mark and we actually got a standing ovation from the rail of a pro team we rolled in that maneuver. Some weather mayhem ensued later that injured some racers and tore up many sails including one of ours, but we finished and held on for 3rd in a competitive section. Over the next few years I've been fortunate to sail with a motivated and competitive Tiger crew a few more times in Chicago and in Pensacola. I've raced on a few other nice boats during that time and always seem to have the most fun "sailing" on the Tiger. When powered up with a team that works well together it is just a blast!! The picture I posted to start this thread was just another of the amazing days on the water amongst the Tiger fleet. We had a very small section for the 2011 Chicago NOOD; but I had sailed against Kent & Al on Toy Tiger down in Pensacola and found them to be great fun to party with and sail against. Good passionate people on and off the water. The spirit I started this thread with was not to bash the J111 or belittle anyone. Heck, the J boats mostly walked on us upwind as you might expect. But we were rocking it downwind and the new sails and hard work of a hard working team beat us on those final two races to end the regatta on Sunday. I was just sharing the fun of another recent weekend of grinning and sailing hard against worthy competition.

And for that, I thank the boat owner, and especially Bob Perry for designing such a fun boat to get out and be able to sail with the "big boys". We were on Circle A and were surrounded by some really cool boats. GL70's, a TP52, Roger's 46, Sydney 38, ID35, Farr 40's several others and the J111's. It was a great regatta despite the fogg and cold. It is great to be out in the elements with like minded folks doing what we love.

Bob, again I am sorry for your loss. I've been to a similar autopsy on my brother and was not a pleasant person to be around for some time after. I can not imagine losing a child.
Warm and Heartfelt Cheers to you again!!

#46 nroose

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 03:18 AM

Perhaps Scot could wow us all with a perfect execution of a new boat. Perhaps he could start with the 13.8. Call it the SA14 or something like that! If anyone who gets one needs a trimmer, please PM me. Remember, Scot, all you need to do is do everything right, and everyone will agree with you every step of the way. You might want to start by making up with Bob and begging him to be your designer.

#47 BIAM

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:25 PM

ah, to think of what could have been...had stevens spent just a fraction more to turn out a boat that wasn't fucked upon delivery (and also charged a bit more, which given how cheap the thing was, nobody would have even noticed), had he not derailed the class direction with his ridiculous insistence on those fucking awful neil pryde sails, had he gotten a few good dealers in a few key markets, gotten sailmakers involved early on to get their customers interested in the boat, there is no telling how big and successful the class might have been. though encouraged by a few people, he didn't do any of those things and look at the sad state of affairs that exists today. there hasn't been a new boat added to the us market in what seems like years, the so cal fleet, at least, is losing enthusiasm (couldn't get a fleet for lbrw, for example), and despite the fact that those of us who own and sail them know what superb light to medium air boats they are, there is zero growth here in so cal. in fact, the participation numbers are getting smaller.

it hasn't helped that the 7.5 was stillborn and the 13.8, despite what looked to be a potentially really good boat with an attractive price point never got off the drawing board. but i believe that much of that is a direct result of both the real and perceived reality of the execution of the ft 10 as a class. despite some really good people trying to do all they could (tim chin, phil infilise, paul macperson just to name a few), the class was hamstrung by hiptrader, a lack of a real leader who understood the game, and by a product that had woeful early quality control issues.

for many of us, four years and a shit ton of racing miles later, our boats are still together, are just as much fun to sail as ever, and in their conditions, capable of winning any race, and that makes the reality of the state of the class even more disturbing. that this class didn't take off is a direct result of the failure of hiptrader to follow even the basic proven paths to od success. a real shame.


pretty good summary of why the class now falters...

sadly, to those who read this forum from the beginning, much of the shortcomings noted above were quite predictable from the way the various parties involved in the project made decisions, and responded to problems..

a hard lesson, that will inevitably have to be re-learned by others who are so easily fooled into thinking a low entry price is a great deal...

#48 d'ranger

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 04:06 PM

pretty good summary of why the class now falters...

sadly, to those who read this forum from the beginning, much of the shortcomings noted above were quite predictable from the way the various parties involved in the project made decisions, and responded to problems..

a hard lesson, that will inevitably have to be re-learned by others who are so easily fooled into thinking a low entry price is a great deal...

From someone who did everything possible to kill the FT10 from day one. And you leave out one critical piece in all of this: the financial crisis which has lead to devastation in the marine industry.

Ironic given your sockpuppet id. I guess you only bash Bush when it suits you.

#49 Christian

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 04:40 PM


pretty good summary of why the class now falters...

sadly, to those who read this forum from the beginning, much of the shortcomings noted above were quite predictable from the way the various parties involved in the project made decisions, and responded to problems..

a hard lesson, that will inevitably have to be re-learned by others who are so easily fooled into thinking a low entry price is a great deal...

From someone who did everything possible to kill the FT10 from day one. And you leave out one critical piece in all of this: the financial crisis which has lead to devastation in the marine industry.

Ironic given your sockpuppet id. I guess you only bash Bush when it suits you.


I am not so sure that the financial crisis has a big play in this - look at the numbers of the J111 as an example - those puppies cost 4 times as much and they seem to be selling like hotcakes. Given a successful execution of the FT build, delivery and class I think it could actually have benefitted from being the low cost (although not quite as low as attempted) alternative to the J-boat et al.

While I am sure Bill Stevens have been through a lot in his life I would agree with Graham that he is a total asshat and I for one chose to not buy the FT mostly because I refuse to do business with assholes.

#50 Bob Perry

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 01:08 AM

Ha!
Some people are just born to whine.

#51 akasideshow

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 02:47 AM



pretty good summary of why the class now falters...

sadly, to those who read this forum from the beginning, much of the shortcomings noted above were quite predictable from the way the various parties involved in the project made decisions, and responded to problems..

a hard lesson, that will inevitably have to be re-learned by others who are so easily fooled into thinking a low entry price is a great deal...

From someone who did everything possible to kill the FT10 from day one. And you leave out one critical piece in all of this: the financial crisis which has lead to devastation in the marine industry.

Ironic given your sockpuppet id. I guess you only bash Bush when it suits you.


I am not so sure that the financial crisis has a big play in this - look at the numbers of the J111 as an example - those puppies cost 4 times as much and they seem to be selling like hotcakes. Given a successful execution of the FT build, delivery and class I think it could actually have benefitted from being the low cost (although not quite as low as attempted) alternative to the J-boat et al.

While I am sure Bill Stevens have been through a lot in his life I would agree with Graham that he is a total asshat and I for one chose to not buy the FT mostly because I refuse to do business with assholes.











your loss!!!
he's gone and wer're still doing this
and this
division e

Attached Files



#52 Christian

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:00 AM




pretty good summary of why the class now falters...

sadly, to those who read this forum from the beginning, much of the shortcomings noted above were quite predictable from the way the various parties involved in the project made decisions, and responded to problems..

a hard lesson, that will inevitably have to be re-learned by others who are so easily fooled into thinking a low entry price is a great deal...

From someone who did everything possible to kill the FT10 from day one. And you leave out one critical piece in all of this: the financial crisis which has lead to devastation in the marine industry.

Ironic given your sockpuppet id. I guess you only bash Bush when it suits you.


I am not so sure that the financial crisis has a big play in this - look at the numbers of the J111 as an example - those puppies cost 4 times as much and they seem to be selling like hotcakes. Given a successful execution of the FT build, delivery and class I think it could actually have benefitted from being the low cost (although not quite as low as attempted) alternative to the J-boat et al.

While I am sure Bill Stevens have been through a lot in his life I would agree with Graham that he is a total asshat and I for one chose to not buy the FT mostly because I refuse to do business with assholes.











your loss!!!
he's gone and wer're still doing this
and this
division e



I don't think it is a loss at all - I avoided investing time and money is a stagnant boat and I have a lot of fun in my sportboat

And BTW - I raced a Tiger in the first ever race a tiger participated in in Australia. Think the boat is a really good design. The build is somewhat low tech and questionable. The builder support was horrible and the class management leaves a lot to be desired.(despite the efforts of some of the class soldiers, who are doing what they can)

#53 bens

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 06:23 AM

I give it to Bill, to be the one to step up to the plate and get the ft off the ground. No one, not even a group by comity, was willing to do the same with SA 30.
You can piss on Bill all you want, It won't effect him in the least bit.

SA can be a double edge sword. In this case, without SA we would not had have the exposure a project like this thrives on; Nor would we have all the negative.

Ben

#54 TVHSD

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 04:25 PM

Iím not sure where some of you get your opinion of Bill Stevens but I can assure you that those closest to him in this project know him as honorable man who doesnít suffer fools gladly. With what he has been through recently most men would have given up yet he remains vibrant and motivated. He does not read these forums because he is busy living his life and spending precious time with his family. He is the epitome of the HTFU acronym.



#55 movable ballast

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 04:44 PM

It seems like the FT10 is the Sarah Palin of sailboats, you either love it or hate it and all around it. Yes the economy did hurt the FT. The 111 is at a price point that those who can afford one are somewhat imune to economics as we know it. The FT on the other hand is at a price point that was very hard hit by the economy. That said, I also beleive that this forum has been a detriment to the boat. Case in point being this thread, what started out as an owner having a bit of a brag has, again, turned into a pissing match over spilt milk.

The fun per dollar ratio can't be beat with the FT10m.

#56 doghouse

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 05:14 PM

I'm not sure where some of you get your opinion of Bill Stevens


By talking to him.

It seems like the FT10 is the Sarah Palin of sailboats, you either love it or hate it and all around it.


I don't really agree with that, I think there are a lot of people who just think it's a pretty good boat.

#57 Nomenclature

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 06:25 PM

Nuff said :ph34r:

I believe that should be: NUFF SAID.
The FT10 is a great boat, and it will hopefully be produced
in great numbers over time.
But in the past there have been many excellent boats that should
have been built in much larger numbers, such as all of the
'Santa Cruz Era' boats. The the economy is hitting the
middle class hard, and for the most part that is the target
market for these boats. In the late '80s, nearly the entire
US West coast production sailboat industry vanished, with only a few
survivors. We may be in much worse shape now than then.
Selling new sailboats will not be an easy thing to do for
some time into the future.

#58 Editor

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 08:04 PM

You got that right.


i actually quite liked bill and without him, there would have not been a tiger at all. but creating it wasn't enough to carry it through, and his kid knew even less than he did about what to do and how to do it.

#59 StayinStrewn

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 08:55 PM

so to go back to my earlier question, are people just letting the tiger linger and mope around or is there a genuine effort from the inner most members of the class to keep pushing the class forward, and if necessary make any improvements to the boat to make it a bit more "marketable" (and I use that term loosely!!)?

There will always be naysayers, which is fine, but is this it now?

I've had lots of fun sailing on my friend's boat, and would love to see more out here, but nobody's pushing them it seems.

#60 owlslick

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 09:26 PM


You got that right.


i actually quite liked bill and without him, there would have not been a tiger at all. but creating it wasn't enough to carry it through, and his kid knew even less than he did about what to do and how to do it.



your version of being an advocate for the Flying Tiger class is a farse

you continue to amaze with your skills on how you manage to put your backside on public display

a magician.... misdirects, then a wow

you misdirect... then... then pow !!!

#61 Bob Perry

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 09:43 PM

Owl:
Well said.

Or, was that directed at me?

#62 TigerinCT

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:32 PM

Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled programing...

It's warm, the boats are wet, the beer is cold.

#63 Clewless

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:45 PM

Tiger vs J111 market-wise....kind of a mismatch comparison since the two are marketed to different segments really.

Why isn't the Tiger fleet growing? Participation is a real issue. Not only the owners, but this applies to crew. Everyone is working their butts off to keep their heads above the water. In these tough times it is hard for folks to get the free time to come out and play.

In the last SDYC OD weekend, we sent crew to other boats to help get them out there. In their place, we had a potential "newblood" owner on board instead to help with fleet building.

Want real results? Yapping on the forum is fun but action is really what is needed now.

Our boat has not missed one single OD fleet race since 2007 (which was season 1). It has not been easy for us to do that.

We have an owner in Florida who manages to get his boat (in the San Diego fleet) out more often than several of the boats with local skippers. That's class.

Quit whining. Get your boats out......let your crew take it out. Just participate. We have enough boats in Fleet One to demonstrate a healthy fleet to potential new owners. We have plenty of interested sailors out there looking in. We are wasting that "critical mass" opportunity.

#64 akasideshow

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:32 AM

Tiger vs J111 market-wise....kind of a mismatch comparison since the two are marketed to different segments really.

Why isn't the Tiger fleet growing? Participation is a real issue. Not only the owners, but this applies to crew. Everyone is working their butts off to keep their heads above the water. In these tough times it is hard for folks to get the free time to come out and play.

In the last SDYC OD weekend, we sent crew to other boats to help get them out there. In their place, we had a potential "newblood" owner on board instead to help with fleet building.

Want real results? Yapping on the forum is fun but action is really what is needed now.

Our boat has not missed one single OD fleet race since 2007 (which was season 1). It has not been easy for us to do that.

We have an owner in Florida who manages to get his boat (in the San Diego fleet) out more often than several of the boats with local skippers. That's class.

Quit whining. Get your boats out......let your crew take it out. Just participate. We have enough boats in Fleet One to demonstrate a healthy fleet to potential new owners. We have plenty of interested sailors out there looking in. We are wasting that "critical mass" opportunity.




couldn't agree more
a well sailed tiger in a fleet is the best marketing tool,
and you guys will be happy to know #108 was delivered to sydney about 6 weeks ago, and I've had a few people asking me some serious questions with a mind to buying over the last few weeks
the AUS economy is a lot better off than the US at the moment and fingers crossed we might yet see another couple arriving down under before long!



#65 Polaris

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 11:42 AM

J111 was sailing too low, look at the photo. This should not happen with the proper helmsman onboard. I would take the 111 over the 10 in an offshore handicap race anytime. There are 6 of them in the upcoming CYC Mac, I'm looking forward to seeing their performance.



#66 movable ballast

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:52 PM

J111 was sailing too low, look at the photo. This should not happen with the proper helmsman onboard. I would take the 111 over the 10 in an offshore handicap race anytime. There are 6 of them in the upcoming CYC Mac, I'm looking forward to seeing their performance.


And yet the Tiger passed the 111 to leeward...

#67 DA-WOODY

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    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:00 PM


How is the Tigers speed compared to the J111? Would assume the Tiger is alittle slower upwind pretty even downwind? thought the J111 was gonna be alot faster than it is turning out to be.


Really? I'm no brain surgeon, but isn't the Tiger half the weight with almost identical DW sail area?


the FT is Heaver & Much Slower

if you carry the money you saved around on the boat in $100 bills Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#68 PHM

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 05:34 AM

I kind of scanned through this thread and several things ring true:

(1) The Tiger is a fantastic boat. I fall in love with mine all over again every time I sail

(2) Experience in big breeze in Aus, the PNW, SF and (every once in awhile) in So Cal has shown the boat to be strong and durable, especially with the new rudder

(3) The small group of current owners remain VERY enthusiastic--the same core group in San Diego has been coming out faithfully for OD races.

(4) We need more owners, boats and crews--although very enthusiastic, the current group of owners is too small to field double digit numbers of boats in regattas, or, for example, to field a fleet for regattas out of town near a holiday when people tend to be busy with other things--LBRW)

(5) There is substantial interest in the class from owners of other boats--I see this all the time in San Diego, but they need to see growth to jump in (Catch-22....)

(6) The Herculean and much appreciated efforts of volunteers (some of whom have been named in this thread) got the class to where it is today (a little over 100 boats)

(7) Any endeavor (like growing the Tiger class, getting boats out to regattas, etc) requires constant promotion, lots of contact with owners and potential owners, etc (A huge job, probably too big for volunteers alone--see point 8)

(8) I have reached the conclusion that the next step of class growth does require some professional management, promotion and marketing at the OD level--the hard working volunteers who also have to earn a living in non-sailing endeavors, raise families etc can only do so much....the question is how to accomplish that?

#69 GRUMPY

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 01:08 PM

Is George giving ST shit at the class level still? Is GP beating up on Ed about the glued in keel, AM rudders and faired bottom?

You guys' have got issues as an OD class.

#70 port tack

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 01:46 PM

Grumpy, you are such an ass hat. There is not any OD class that doesn't have it's issues. What will never change is that the boat does what it was advertised to do. It is Fast, Fun and Affordable. Could it have been better, yes. But it is what it is, now go stick your head up Dopey's ass.

#71 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 06:25 PM

Grumpy, you are such an ass hat. There is not any OD class that doesn't have it's issues. What will never change is that the boat does what it was advertised to do. It is Fast, Fun and Affordable. Could it have been better, yes. But it is what it is, now go stick your head up Dopey's ass.


I am never sure what people mean by "Could have been better" or similar statements because it is unclear what people are referring to or think should have been done differently and seems to imply that there is some major fundamental problem with the boat - which is not true and which (most) people making the statements did not intend to convey. The hull and rig are great. There have been some things that needed to be changed from the original build which were resolved before most of the boats were delivered - like the original motor door design and transom- and subsequent modifications like installing a piece G10 to reinforce the mast base. But those issues were resolved and are in the past.

If "could have been better" people are referring to the OEM furler, OME rudder, and OEM halyards, I understand what you are talking about but those are issues that are relatively easy to resolve (from the technology perspective; not so much from the perspective that there is unanimous agreememnt among the owners regarding the rudder). The Class has been addressing these issues. But there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the OEM platform.

#72 port tack

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:19 PM


Grumpy, you are such an ass hat. There is not any OD class that doesn't have it's issues. What will never change is that the boat does what it was advertised to do. It is Fast, Fun and Affordable. Could it have been better, yes. But it is what it is, now go stick your head up Dopey's ass.


I am never sure what people mean by "Could have been better" or similar statements because it is unclear what people are referring to or think should have been done differently and seems to imply that there is some major fundamental problem with the boat - which is not true and which (most) people making the statements did not intend to convey. The hull and rig are great. There have been some things that needed to be changed from the original build which were resolved before most of the boats were delivered - like the original motor door design and transom- and subsequent modifications like installing a piece G10 to reinforce the mast base. But those issues were resolved and are in the past.

If "could have been better" people are referring to the OEM furler, OME rudder, and OEM halyards, I understand what you are talking about but those are issues that are relatively easy to resolve (from the technology perspective; not so much from the perspective that there is unanimous agreememnt among the owners regarding the rudder). The Class has been addressing these issues. But there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the OEM platform.



Ok to clarify my could have been better has mostly to do with the Keel lifting arrangement. I live in a shallow area and found that lifting the Tiger keel with the A frame to be a big pain in the ass. A system like the melges 32 would have been great. Although I do agree that the furler sucked and I would have gone with a simple headfoil. Like you mentioned there are a few little things that can mostly be resolved by the owner. Peace.

#73 Rich Frye

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 02:46 PM

... the mixed section starts made for some interesting sailing.

Posted Image


Three boats racing is not a section, it's match racing with a third wheel.
Sorry to add semantics, carry on with comparing apples to turnips.

#74 Bob Perry

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 03:39 PM

I think I like that "the FLYING APPLE" that would be "Feh Ping Kuo" in Mandarin.

#75 Left Hook

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 03:30 AM

We could have had a faceoff between Red Stripe and a J/111 today but FT10inCT was skeeeeeered to come out and race us...

;)

#76 TigerinCT

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 01:31 PM

We could have had a faceoff between Red Stripe and a J/111 today but FT10inCT was skeeeeeered to come out and race us...

;)


As golf great Ty Webb said, "A donut without a hole isn't a donut...it's a danish...," a race with no crew isn't a race. Will hope to give you a smack down another time.

#77 Left Hook

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 02:43 AM


We could have had a faceoff between Red Stripe and a J/111 today but FT10inCT was skeeeeeered to come out and race us...

;)


As golf great Ty Webb said, "A donut without a hole isn't a donut...it's a danish...," a race with no crew isn't a race. Will hope to give you a smack down another time.


Any word on whether the frost point series is gonna happen? 3 boats each from CPYC, PYC and SHYC? Partnership, Afterglow & Storm vs. Red Stripe, Loki & Threebeans vs. Cabady, Venturesome & Resolute. I can dream right?

#78 StayinStrewn

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 06:02 PM

well said charlie!

#79 TigerinCT

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 12:02 AM



We could have had a faceoff between Red Stripe and a J/111 today but FT10inCT was skeeeeeered to come out and race us...

;)


As golf great Ty Webb said, "A donut without a hole isn't a donut...it's a danish...," a race with no crew isn't a race. Will hope to give you a smack down another time.


Any word on whether the frost point series is gonna happen? 3 boats each from CPYC, PYC and SHYC? Partnership, Afterglow & Storm vs. Red Stripe, Loki & Threebeans vs. Cabady, Venturesome & Resolute. I can dream right?


Frost Point is on, but one of the boats you mention won't be there - our team is TBD.

#80 Left Hook

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:54 AM

Hmmm... The Swan 42 Arethusa is a CPYC boat... they might be a good program to have on the team.

#81 Mike in CT

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:11 PM


We could have had a faceoff between Red Stripe and a J/111 today but FT10inCT was skeeeeeered to come out and race us...

;)


As golf great Ty Webb said, "A donut without a hole isn't a donut...it's a danish...," a race with no crew isn't a race. Will hope to give you a smack down another time.



I was bummed you couldn't make it. We were looking forward to sailing the viper against an actual sport boat. It's just as well the RC decided to make the whole regatta a useless crap shoot by running a second race in zero wind.

#82 TigerinCT

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:00 PM

Mike, sorry we missed you - would have been great fun.

On the 2nd race you looked like you were moving on the fleet once you got the kite up - that thing looked huge!

#83 'moondance44

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:40 PM



We could have had a faceoff between Red Stripe and a J/111 today but FT10inCT was skeeeeeered to come out and race us...

;)


As golf great Ty Webb said, "A donut without a hole isn't a donut...it's a danish...," a race with no crew isn't a race. Will hope to give you a smack down another time.



I was bummed you couldn't make it. We were looking forward to sailing the viper against an actual sport boat. It's just as well the RC decided to make the whole regatta a useless crap shoot by running a second race in zero wind.



How do you figure it was RC fault? There was breeze in the second race if you could see it. It looked to us like the first DIV A boat did a gybe set and everyone followed the leader left. We stayed right and did fine. Had breeze all the way down.

#84 Mike in CT

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:58 AM




We could have had a faceoff between Red Stripe and a J/111 today but FT10inCT was skeeeeeered to come out and race us...

;)


As golf great Ty Webb said, "A donut without a hole isn't a donut...it's a danish...," a race with no crew isn't a race. Will hope to give you a smack down another time.



I was bummed you couldn't make it. We were looking forward to sailing the viper against an actual sport boat. It's just as well the RC decided to make the whole regatta a useless crap shoot by running a second race in zero wind.



How do you figure it was RC fault? There was breeze in the second race if you could see it. It looked to us like the first DIV A boat did a gybe set and everyone followed the leader left. We stayed right and did fine. Had breeze all the way down.


I'm mostly annoyed because we ended up in a hero to zero situration (yeah, I know, welcome to sailing). but if it is 30 seconds to go before the time limit and the mark boat reports (and they did, on the VHF) "we have 3kts, maybe" it's time to send people in to the party.

#85 Mike in CT

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:02 PM

Mike, sorry we missed you - would have been great fun.

On the 2nd race you looked like you were moving on the fleet once you got the kite up - that thing looked huge!


Housatonic Boat Club in Stratford hosts their anual regatta on sept 10th if you can make it. Its a good race and the HBC members put on a great party every year.




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