1155 replies to this topic

[coreymon]

http://m.facebook.co...s/3038165330891

[GIT-R-DUN]

Joli,

Multis are a completely different story, however I think there is a proper way to rate them.

Some PHRF committees around the country have gone to a multi rating system in which boats of certain design/make receive ratings for fixed mark racing, point to point, etc.  

 

I do believe that arguing the acceptance of sport boats and arguing the acceptance of multis is two separate arguments.

 

The basics of this conversation are this; how many boats do you want on a line.  If you want more, you work toward getting those boats on the line.  In this case, the current state of sailing is sport boat driven growth.  If you don't accept that and work with it you hinder your ability to grow sailing.

 

The fact is these boats are accepted in PHRF formats in many locations and for PHRF-LE to determine they shouldn't be allowed to sail here is ridiculous.  

 

The sailing community on LE is owed an explanation from PHRF-LE as to why this seems acceptable to them.  what they wrote back to Joe is not an explanation.  It is a quick excuse.  There has to be a reason they want to limit sailing to those that want to sail.  

 

It's not like these are some homemade craft or 1-off.  M24s are about as proven as it gets and they have sold 500 J70s, so they are racing them somewhere.  Why discourage them from racing here.

 

I think we all want sailing to grow and be supported, but that's not going to happen if you are trying to bring 18 year old kids out on boats older, and slower, than their grandparents.  

 

 

 

LET 'EM SAIL!

[Joli]

You see, I think the argument could be made that a sport boat is a " completely different story".  

 

If PHRF used multiple ratings based on course configurations and wind speeds those arguments could possibly be overcome but they don't.  I'm not advocating less boats on the line, just boats in the proper fleets.   It's great to see the sport boat fleet grow, soon they should have there own fleet. 

 

I do remember when ILYA Bay Week had PHRF A and PHRF A XL, the split was based on SA/D, I think the split was anything over 23 but it was many years ago.........

 

The question remains; how do you fairly rate a mid displacement non planning boat against planning sport boats with a single number TOD rating irrespective of the course configuration or wind speed?  A lot of beer can be drunk discussing this........

 

By the way, I don't agree with stopping a boat from racing if they don't have a bow pulpit (ie J 70 or M24)

 

 

Joli,

Multis are a completely different story, however I think there is a proper way to rate them.

Some PHRF committees around the country have gone to a multi rating system in which boats of certain design/make receive ratings for fixed mark racing, point to point, etc.  

 

I do believe that arguing the acceptance of sport boats and arguing the acceptance of multis is two separate arguments.

 

The basics of this conversation are this; how many boats do you want on a line.  If you want more, you work toward getting those boats on the line.  In this case, the current state of sailing is sport boat driven growth.  If you don't accept that and work with it you hinder your ability to grow sailing.

 

The fact is these boats are accepted in PHRF formats in many locations and for PHRF-LE to determine they shouldn't be allowed to sail here is ridiculous.  

 

The sailing community on LE is owed an explanation from PHRF-LE as to why this seems acceptable to them.  what they wrote back to Joe is not an explanation.  It is a quick excuse.  There has to be a reason they want to limit sailing to those that want to sail.  

 

It's not like these are some homemade craft or 1-off.  M24s are about as proven as it gets and they have sold 500 J70s, so they are racing them somewhere.  Why discourage them from racing here.

 

I think we all want sailing to grow and be supported, but that's not going to happen if you are trying to bring 18 year old kids out on boats older, and slower, than their grandparents.  

 

 

 

LET 'EM SAIL!

[airacer]

So you advocate multi hulls should be given a PHRF LE rating and be allowed to compete in a mixed fleet?

 

The multi hull issue has already been solved and PHRF-LE supported them and helped them in branching off into their own PHRF class/region.  We are open to a similar solution if PHRF-LE wants to go that route, but I do not believe it is optimal at this time for a number of reasons.  Re-Focus back to rule 10.1.2.

[Joli]

so.........

 

how do you fairly rate a mid displacement non planning boat against planning sport boats with a single number TOD rating irrespective of the course configuration or wind speed?

 

 

So you advocate multi hulls should be given a PHRF LE rating and be allowed to compete in a mixed fleet?

 

The multi hull issue has already been solved and PHRF-LE supported them and helped them in branching off into their own PHRF class/region.  We are open to a similar solution if PHRF-LE wants to go that route, but I do not believe it is optimal at this time for a number of reasons.  Re-Focus back to rule 10.1.2.

[brutus]

So by your theory, the sportboats are only better off in planning conditions. You are then at an advantage in a non sport boat  the majority of the time on lake erie if you look at the weather stats. Many more days in the sub 15 knot wind category.

 

I agree that the splits should be based on SA/D. I think that should be up to the event organizers and not the Lake Erie PHRF board. Each event should be able to place boats in the proper divisions. That is what happens anyway. PHRF forbidding sportboats will not do the sport any favors in the long run.

so.........

 

how do you fairly rate a mid displacement non planning boat against planning sport boats with a single number TOD rating irrespective of the course configuration or wind speed?

 

 

 

So you advocate multi hulls should be given a PHRF LE rating and be allowed to compete in a mixed fleet?

 

The multi hull issue has already been solved and PHRF-LE supported them and helped them in branching off into their own PHRF class/region.  We are open to a similar solution if PHRF-LE wants to go that route, but I do not believe it is optimal at this time for a number of reasons.  Re-Focus back to rule 10.1.2.

[airacer]

so.........

 

how do you fairly rate a mid displacement non planning boat against planning sport boats with a single number TOD rating irrespective of the course configuration or wind speed?

 

I can not speak for the committee as to how exactly they come up with their numbers, as they do that behind closed doors.  They are currently rating planing sport boats in this matter, so please remember we are not here to debate ratings. I can only speculate on this issue, and will not do so right now.

 

However I suggest you ask yourself these questions:

 

How do you rate a 55' long and very narrow displacement boat with large overhangs (lets use a Swede 55 as our example boat) vs. a very wide and short in comparison boat (lets use an Catalina 22 as an example), with a single number TOD rating irrespective of the course configuration or wind speed?   These are both non-planning boats but with very different polar curves and performance characteristics.  I suspect the answer to this question will be very similar to the one you asked above.

 

For arguments sake:

 

Should you say, well that's just to hard to do, so the Catalina 22 should kick rocks and go race one design?  They are a 1D boat with a good class following here https://www.catalina22.org after all.

 

Or should you do the best you can, look at the results over time and make adjustments to make things as "fair" as possible to get more boats on the starting line?  This is what I agree with.

 

PHRF-LE states that they rate boats based on a triangle course and 11 kts of wind.  I think they do their best to make things as fair as possible for all boats as far as ratings are concerned.  There is no perfect rating system.

 

If you personally believe a boat is winning because its rating is incorrect, you have the following options regardless of the displacement or hull design of a boat you are racing against.  They are:

 

1. Optimize your boat (read rule 7.1) and make yourself and your crew better through practice and go out there and win.

or

2. Ask for a rating review and present your evidence and race results to the committee.

or

3.  Don't take it so seriously, go out and have fun and enjoy a day of sailing and a few drinks at the YC bar afterward with friends. 

 

I think a lot of people tend to forget about this rule.

 

7.1 PHRF-LE handicaps boats as if they were optimally equipped for racing. There is no credit for under-size 

sails, poor preparation including aged sails, dirty bottom, unfair appendages, and/or poor racing tactics. 

[Joli]

I didn't say that and wouldn't say that considering PHRF LE is TOD. 

 

This previous thread argues sport boats have an advantage in light air.  http://forums.sailin...howtopic=146244   

 

If PHRF LE was TOT then possibly the advantage a lower rated boat enjoys on a longer (time wise) race could spell a different story?

 

 

So by your theory, the sportboats are only better off in planning conditions.

[Joli]

That I agree with 100%, this is our hobby, not our vocation.

 

 

 Don't take it so seriously, go out and have fun and enjoy a day of sailing and a few drinks at the YC bar afterward with friends. 

[jsmin]

I advocate any kind of sailboats to be able to get a phrf cert to be able to compete in any mixed fleet!!!!

 

all you that want to restrict, restrict, restrict can go sail by themselves, since that is where we are headed.

 

the racing side has gotten to stale, boring and hard core. in this area, we do way too much windward leeward races and are chasing boats away every week it seems.

 

go look which races bring the most to the starting line every year.

 

the phrf le idea that safety and restricted ratings is getting out of whack. there is no reason every "new" or sportboat should have a fair rating, not a hard rating. why can other phrf areas handle these type of boats and not here just blows my mind.

 

are there some holes in the ground that people have been hiding that i don't know about?

[airacer]

I do remember when ILYA Bay Week had PHRF A and PHRF A XL, the split was based on SA/D, I think the split was anything over 23 but it was many years ago.........

 

That is before my time, but could be a possible solution here.  Thanks Joli.  

[jsmin]

i remember times when the bay week basin was full of sailboats of all kinds of shapes and sizes

along with many other regattas

[Sailing_Rugger]

I find it sad that this thread is most active when people are bitching about ratings... and dead when actually talking about who's sailing what/where/when for the season that is fast approaching.

[airacer]

I agree Rugger. I am going sailing today. See ya on the water.

[Sail_FAU]

Huge props to Ian Moran, 29/200 at Opti Team Trials.  Beast.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Hey where is a good, reasonable hotel to stay for Cleveland Race Week?

 

MS

[Hullflyer16]

Hey where is a good, reasonable hotel to stay for Cleveland Race Week?

 

MS

 

driving or stumbling distance

[DogWillBark]

Huge props to Ian Moran, 29/200 at Opti Team Trials.  Beast.

 

+1

[Honey_Badger]

Hey where is a good, reasonable hotel to stay for Cleveland Race Week?

 

MS

 

You should be able to find a decent rate at a downtown hotel (assuming no Indians games). Do NOT stay at the Days Inn in Lakewood (off Clifton near W 117th). Shit hole are the two words that come to mind...(read the Yelp reviews for some entertainment if you want more details)

 

Unfortunately I can't think of any hotels not in downtown that are close.

[coreymon]

Hey where is a good, reasonable hotel to stay for Cleveland Race Week?

 

MS

i sent you a pm senior squirrel

[DogWillBark]

Hey where is a good, reasonable hotel to stay for Cleveland Race Week?

 

MS

 

You should be able to find a decent rate at a downtown hotel (assuming no Indians games). Do NOT stay at the Days Inn in Lakewood (off Clifton near W 117th). Shit hole are the two words that come to mind...(read the Yelp reviews for some entertainment if you want more details)

 

Unfortunately I can't think of any hotels not in downtown that are close.

 

The place has got some great history, though. Remember 1997...

 

Byline: Bloomberg News

Jose Mesa is facing criminal charges and he's glad to get to Florida to get away from them for a while.

Mesa, the Cleveland Indians' closer, faces a March 31 trial on charges that he raped a woman on Dec. 22 in a Lakewood, Ohio, hotel. He faces a three- to 10-year prison term if convicted.

[Honey_Badger]

 

Hey where is a good, reasonable hotel to stay for Cleveland Race Week?

 

MS

 

You should be able to find a decent rate at a downtown hotel (assuming no Indians games). Do NOT stay at the Days Inn in Lakewood (off Clifton near W 117th). Shit hole are the two words that come to mind...(read the Yelp reviews for some entertainment if you want more details)

 

Unfortunately I can't think of any hotels not in downtown that are close.

 

The place has got some great history, though. Remember 1997...

 

Byline: Bloomberg News

Jose Mesa is facing criminal charges and he's glad to get to Florida to get away from them for a while.

Mesa, the Cleveland Indians' closer, faces a March 31 trial on charges that he raped a woman on Dec. 22 in a Lakewood, Ohio, hotel. He faces a three- to 10-year prison term if convicted.

Oh. Wow. Didn't know that. Not a native Clevelander. I vaguely recall the Jose Mesa thing but I will now think of him every time I drive by there...

[Schock & All]

1. USA 105 Abracadabra Roger Stark North Cape Yacht Club Temperance, MI, USA Melges 30 30 rating: 36.0    
2. USA 43940 Affirmed Jason Geisz Crescent Sail Yacht Club Birmingham, MI, USA Tripp 36 36 rating:72.0    
3. USA 115 BadFish Bill Bollin North Cape Yacht Club Sylvania, OH, USA Melges 32 32 rating:21.0    
4. USA 12 First Tracks Jay Hawkins Edgewater YC Cleveland, OH, USA J 122 40 rating:30.0    
5. USA 126 Flat Stanley T. Sheehan / T. McSweeney Edgewater Y.C./ Put in Bay Y.C. Cleveland, OH, USA Melges 32 32 rating:21.0    
6. USA 35036 Glory Days Richard Nesbett Edgewater Yacht Club Rocky River, OH, USA One Design 35 Custom 35 rating:30.0    
7. USA 117 Say Uncle Kevin Lemonds Grosse Ile Yacht Club Grosse Ile, MI, USA Henderson 30 30 rating:42.0    
8. USA 42058 Schock & All Russell Krock Sandusky Sailing Club Granville, OH, USA Schock 35 35 rating:72.0    
9. USA 40937 Time Machine Robert Gordenker North Cape Yacht Club Ann Arbor, MI, USA J 35 35 rating:72.0    
10. USA 25622 Viper Roger Pollack Grosse Ile Yacht Club Canton, MI, USA Flying Tiger 10m 32'8 rating:45.0    
11. USA 7145 Vortices Chris Saxton BYC Plymouth, MI, USA J 145 48' rating:-12.0
"phrf A" for this years mills -12 to 72 is that what you call similar boats? and how many are "sport boats"? M32 x2, M30, Hendo 30, FT10? the argument that phrf le is only about "similar mid-displacement boats" is bullshit. if anything the mid-displacement boats should welcome in boats with low ratings, the more -# to double digit rating boats in phrf A, the better the chance a mid-displacement boat will race another mid-displacement boat in phrf b,c,d,e,f,g...
 
phrf cert. or not, the clubs around cleveland will allow non "le phrf" boats to race. just ask.

Hopefully they can get the 72.s with the b boats this year

[Speedskater]

Edgewater YC, 'Captain America' filming, CRW/OD and West Shoreway closing.

 

With the closing of the West Shoreway for the movie filming and of course the possible construction work on the alternate routes I-71 & I-90, rush hour traffic will be total grid-lock.  So Wednesday night races from the east-side will have to start heading towards the club mid-afternoon.  The have extended the closing dates to interfere with CRW/OD.

 

Does anyone have real details on how the closing is going to happen?

 

As a west-sider I'm glad that I don't work downtown.

[watersong26]

Edgewater YC, 'Captain America' filming, CRW/OD and West Shoreway closing.

 

With the closing of the West Shoreway for the movie filming and of course the possible construction work on the alternate routes I-71 & I-90, rush hour traffic will be total grid-lock.  So Wednesday night races from the east-side will have to start heading towards the club mid-afternoon.  The have extended the closing dates to interfere with CRW/OD.

 

Does anyone have real details on how the closing is going to happen?

 

As a west-sider I'm glad that I don't work downtown.

They powers that be will open up a small section of the shoreway between W49th and Edgewater Park exit to allow some traffic flow. Anyone headed to EYC or points north of Rt 2 (coming from east OR west) will need to head to W49th from Detroit Ave. Then cops will open up a lane to allow 1 way traffic into and out of edgewater park exit. Its gonna be a BIG pain in the ass.

[huckster_one]

There is parking in the upper lot at edwater remember!

[Speedskater]

That's true, but if you can get to the West Blvd. parking lot, then you can get to the W49th ramp.  Once you get to the ramp it will be something like when they run a triathlon.  The problem will be for east-siders, down-towners and south-siders to get anywhere near Edgewater at rush-hour grid-lock.

[big chicken]

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

[eerie sailor]

Nicely done North Cape. 

 

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

[brutus]

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

 

According to a PHRF commitee member, the club is not allowed to make such a decision. When it was suggested that clubs may do this it was stated that the race results could be thrown out  if someone were to protest the decision.  It was stated the the whole race would be invalidated and not scored.

[eerie sailor]

Sounds pretty unenforcable to me.  Individual people do business with Lake Erie PHRF in the form of handicapping.  What type of leverage does PHRF have over a private club?  As long as NCYC has their NORs and SIs in order on how they are going to run THEIR races.

 

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

 

According to a PHRF commitee member, the club is not allowed to make such a decision. When it was suggested that clubs may do this it was stated that the race results could be thrown out  if someone were to protest the decision.  It was stated the the whole race would be invalidated and not scored.

[airacer]

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

 

+1

 

I think the meeting was very positive.  PHRF was well represented and there was a good open discussion with many great ideas flowing.  Getting the racers involved and giving everyone a chance to hear all sides was a great idea.  

[Sailing_Rugger]

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

 

According to a PHRF commitee member, the club is not allowed to make such a decision. When it was suggested that clubs may do this it was stated that the race results could be thrown out  if someone were to protest the decision.  It was stated the the whole race would be invalidated and not scored.

Under what grounds?  Does PHRF-LE provide anything in terms of funding, support, advertisement, equipment, etc towards a regatta run by a private club?

[brutus]

 

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

 

According to a PHRF commitee member, the club is not allowed to make such a decision. When it was suggested that clubs may do this it was stated that the race results could be thrown out  if someone were to protest the decision.  It was stated the the whole race would be invalidated and not scored.

Under what grounds?  Does PHRF-LE provide anything in terms of funding, support, advertisement, equipment, etc towards a regatta run by a private club?

I think the is issue is that when using PHRF that is the class rule. In the RRS, the event authority is not allowed to change class rules without the class itself ( In this case PHRF) signing off on the change. If you use PHRF, then all the PHRF rules apply. It is not up the the club to pick and choose which provisions that the use.  

In real life, I am not sure anyone cares enough to protest, but it is important to call or email the PHRF board members and tell them your feelings.

Otherwise it could be a mess if someone wants it to be.  That is why people are pushing for the changes to the PHRF rule.

Should it be up to PHRF or the event authority to determine the eligibility for events? I believe it should be up to the event, as there is a big difference between inshore regattas and distance events like the MIlls. 

[big chicken]

I'm just a sailor with a 4KSB and do not speak in any official capacity for North Cape (although in the past I was the Yachting Activities chair) nor am I interested in getting into any sort of shit fight over this issue or prolonging it.  But my sense of the approach of the sailors at the meeting last night was that we should do what is best for the members of North Cape and the future of North Cape's racing program.  Certainly PHRF-LE is entitled to establish and operate under whatever set of regulations that they choose to adopt for their purposes but then so is North Cape and its racing program.  If there are certain decisions made by those outside of North Cape that run counter to what the NCYC racing fleet feels is best for its growth and survival, I suspect that North Cape will find itself in a position where it chooses that path that it finds in its best interests.  If that path means that outsiders choose not to recognize the results of certain "club" (their term, not mine) races, then so be it.  I suspect that in the real world that it really won't have any effect on how the North Cape fleet chooses to evaluate and score their "club" races.  At this point the action taken last night was reflective on our "club" races.

 

By the by, it was pointed out that members of NCYC hold 60 PHRF-LE certificates, second in number only to the Buffalo Harbor Sailing Club (84 or 86 I believe) and those 60 represent approximately 10 percent of the entire PHRF-LE database of certificates.  Might it not seem logical to hope that PHRF-LE would recognize that such a concentration of boats is a valuable part of their constituency and it would be a shame if those owners would feel that they were put in a position where their interests were better served by some other option?  It might not be too much of a stretch if North Capers had to ultimately think in terms of DRYA or even starting their own fleet.  And no, that isn't a threat.  It's just a reality of American business that if someone isn't selling the product that you want to buy, you look for an alternative supplier who is willing to deliver what you need.

[big chicken]

Perhaps this has already been noted, but if not...

 

Hey Sailor!

 

http://www.sailmagaz...-2014-gay-games

[tjw]

What is there to stop someone or club from starting PHRF Western LE and telling LE to shove it up there ass?

[Mr. Squirrel]

Just throwing this out there, but what is there to stop NCYC from joining DRYA and getting their PHRF ratings from those evil Detroiters?

 

MS

[coreymon]

good job NCYC. Edgewater YC has been alowing J22's to do a couple phrf races for years now. the only reason it is not a weekly occurence is due to the fact that there is a storng OD turnout for the entire spring, summer, and fall races and there are a couple end of the year race events that are held outside of the OD race schedual. i have been told that a Melges 24 called "electra" was able to compete in a phrf fleet at bay week years ago. i have also been told that CYC has allowed non phrf-le boats to race. so there seems to be a pretty solid precident for allowing non phrf-le rated boats to compete. please correct me if i'm wrong, but what we are looking at is at least 3 big racing clubs (NCYC, CYC, EYC) all agreeing to let non-phrf le boats to race. so, what will it take for the board to play ball?

[Sailing_Rugger]

 

 

Regardless of how PHRF-LE may ultimately decide the issue of "R" rated boats at its meeting next week, at a meeting of our sailing fleet last night at NCYC a decision was made to allow the Melges 24s, the Etchells, and the J22 in our fleet to race with us on all the races that utilize the marks set by NCYC.  Thus our Wednesday nights, Friday nights, and Champagne Series are available to all boats that are accepted by the Yachting Activities chairman.  It's not a complete solution to the issue being faced by airacer and others, but it is at least a step toward inclusion.

 

According to a PHRF commitee member, the club is not allowed to make such a decision. When it was suggested that clubs may do this it was stated that the race results could be thrown out  if someone were to protest the decision.  It was stated the the whole race would be invalidated and not scored.

Under what grounds?  Does PHRF-LE provide anything in terms of funding, support, advertisement, equipment, etc towards a regatta run by a private club?

I think the is issue is that when using PHRF that is the class rule. In the RRS, the event authority is not allowed to change class rules without the class itself ( In this case PHRF) signing off on the change. If you use PHRF, then all the PHRF rules apply. It is not up the the club to pick and choose which provisions that the use.  

In real life, I am not sure anyone cares enough to protest, but it is important to call or email the PHRF board members and tell them your feelings.

Otherwise it could be a mess if someone wants it to be.  That is why people are pushing for the changes to the PHRF rule.

Should it be up to PHRF or the event authority to determine the eligibility for events? I believe it should be up to the event, as there is a big difference between inshore regattas and distance events like the MIlls. 

After reading through the most recent provisions to the RRS 2013-2016, I fail to see any specific Rule that the organizing authority of the event may be protested under, that would disallow them from making final judgement on the eligibility of a boat choosing to race PHRF, provided they have themselves a PHRF certificate.  The "R" restriction, if addressed properly within both the NOR and SI's for the event, is therefore not grounds for ineligibility... unless PHRF is referring to a specific Rule, then I don't see what they're standing on at this time.

 

From PHRF-LE's website/mission statement itself: "PHRF-LE is a handicap certificate issuing organization; it does not sponsor, organize or manage competitive sailing events"

 

Even still, would it not be I-LYA that would have final say on I-LYA sanctioned events, and not PHRF-LE?  And for non-I-LYA sanctioned events, it is the hosting club's final say?  Not to cause a problem, but if the hosting club puts forth ahead of time their eligibility requirements (as they always do), the competitors themselves have the choice to race with/against said provisions, so no grounds for protest.  The hosting club provides awards, etc so what is PHRF going to take away anyway?  ie, What else do they provide in the first place aside from said certificate that is paid for and owned by the competitor(s) on a yearly basis and accepted by said hosting club(s) as entry to their event?

 

...

 

Anyway, stepped a mast last night... let's go sailing.

[brutus]

I think that rule 87 in the RRS applies.

 

87 CHANGES TO CLASS RULES

The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class

rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class

association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.

 

This is the reason that the change has to come from PHRF LE.  If they want to be stubborn about it they can. The only way to change it is to get their permission or use another rating system.

[Sailing_Rugger]

But it's not a governing "class" for events such as the Roberts Race, CRW, Fall Regatta, Falcon Cup... it's just the referenced handicap system -- the very system that awarded a valid certificate to said boat(s) in question.  If an event was labeled the "PHRF-LE _______ Championship" then obviously that's a different issue.  

 

Within the PHRF-LE "class rules:"

 

 

7.8 Relative to US Sailing Rule 87, PHRF-LE Class Rules are modified as follows:

Certificates are required for all invitational races where the PHRF-LE or PHRF rules are referenced for

both PHRF and/or JAM. Boats without a certificate can be assigned to a cruising class.

a) Out of area competitors with a valid PHRF certificate from their area can race in the PHRF-LE area

with the appropriate PHRF-LE handicap for their boat

A designated “Double or Single Handed” race may wave crew minimum and allow the use of

specified special equipment ( e.g. autopilot );

c) A “designated Cruising Class” or “Club Only” race(s) may waive PHRF-LE rules, by properly making

appropriate modifications in the Sailing Instructions. It is recommended that PHRF-LE ratings be

used for such a class(es).

 

8.2.1 Rulings on individual eligibility may be requested from the ISAF or the PHRF-LE Handicapping

Committee.

 

"May" is not "shall."  7.8© above is presumably how the "R" restriction came about... however, again, the SI's can spell it out however they choose and are the governing document.

 

 

 

 

On that note, the F W Roberts Race is a mere 7 weeks away and there has already been a survey put into circulation regarding course and starting time options... I'll post it here also if anyone (boat owners/skippers only, please) would like to fill it out and email it to me directly -- thanks!

 

[Sailing_Rugger]

F W Roberts Race Survey attached... I think!

Attached Files

•  Survey.pdf   28.38K   27 downloads

[watersong26]

F W Roberts Race Survey attached... I think!

Rob, i wonder if you made it on survey monkey if you'd get more responses?

[big chicken]

Sitting on the bottom at North Cape this afternoon.  Awful early for such silliness.

[big chicken]

Wasn't there supposed to be a PHRF-LE meeting last night?  Anybody hear what if anything happened?

[DogWillBark]

Wasn't there supposed to be a PHRF-LE meeting last night?  Anybody hear what if anything happened?

 

Meeting is tomorrow at 6:30PM in Perrysburg.

[brutus]

Wasn't there supposed to be a PHRF-LE meeting last night?  Anybody hear what if anything happened?

 

Meeting is tomorrow at 6:30PM in Perrysburg.

Any news from last nights meeting?

[airacer]

There is news, but the committee asked me to keep quiet about it until they publish it officially on the PHRF-LE website. I will respect that.

Going to the meeting and talking to the committee members was a good thing. They are not evil people out to get boats with A-sails. For that matter they do not seem out to get any boat or anyone/group personally. They are regular people, they just have serious concerns about protecting their fleet. Whether right or wrong, they have their right to do what they think is best for their class.

I think more sport boat and small boat owners should think about doing the same and open lines of communication. It needs to be more about education and communication rather than shit slinging and politics.

I feel the outcome is a step in the right direction. IMHO not the optimal outcome, I personally feel that even smaller keel boats such as Vipers should be allowed to at least be rated and the individual YCs should determine who can race, but again something is better than nothing and each is entitled their own opinion. Things seem to be moving forward though, which is a positive thing.

Hopefully minutes/class rules are posted soon, as the racing season is upon us.

[Hullflyer16]

There is news, but the committee asked me to keep quiet about it until they publish it officially on the PHRF-LE website. I will respect that.

Going to the meeting and talking to the committee members was a good thing. They are not evil people out to get boats with A-sails. For that matter they do not seem out to get any boat or anyone/group personally. They are regular people, they just have serious concerns about protecting their fleet. Whether right or wrong, they have their right to do what they think is best for their class.

I think more sport boat and small boat owners should think about doing the same and open lines of communication. It needs to be more about education and communication rather than shit slinging and politics.

I feel the outcome is a step in the right direction. IMHO not the optimal outcome, I personally feel that even smaller keel boats such as Vipers should be allowed to at least be rated and the individual YCs should determine who can race, but again something is better than nothing and each is entitled their own opinion. Things seem to be moving forward though, which is a positive thing.

Hopefully minutes/class rules are posted soon, as the racing season is upon us.

 

so we should see them this time next year? as they cant post any thing in a timely maner we are still wating for march minutes!

[big chicken]

I'm almost certain that they have indicated in the past they they don't post the minutes until after they have been approved at the following meeting.  So chances are we'll be well into the racing season before we know what they are doing/have done.

 

EDIT: The most recently posted minutes are from February, 2013 and according to the Minutes page of the site the PHRF Committee's schedule shows no meetings in June, July or August, so it could be September before we find out what happened.  So I guess we'll know for the 2014 racing season.

[brutus]

I'm almost certain that they have indicated in the past they they don't post the minutes until after they have been approved at the following meeting.  So chances are we'll be well into the racing season before we know what they are doing/have done.

 

EDIT: The most recently posted minutes are from February, 2013 and according to the Minutes page of the site the PHRF Committee's schedule shows no meetings in June, July or August, so it could be September before we find out what happened.  So I guess we'll know for the 2014 racing season.

 

I agree that this is beyond silly at this point. I know that the commitee is working hard, but now we have this cloak and dagger and non-disclosure nonsense. They do not update the website on time, so there is no way to know when the meetings are unless you are an insider. Now they want us to wait for an update via the website. They have had my money for my phrf certificate since March and I still have no idea of a rating or if I am eligible. Maybe I should ask for interest on my fees.

[airacer]

I agree. Minutes/rules should be posted already. Save to PDF, upload and update a few links doesn't take long. I know they are busy getting certificates out, but in the time I wrote this post it could be done. I would be happy to help with this if I could.

There needs to be better communication from the committee to the members. Just posting minutes timely would go along way to clearing the air.

This day in age there is no reason why you should have to wait a month or 3 to find out what is going on. When you have no information it is easy to assume the worst and have a negative perception.

Let's hope they can find the time to update things today.

[jsmin]

yeah, why wait until the next meeting to approve the minutes from previous meeting? or have to wait till they are approved to post? does that mean anthing decided isn't realy in effect?

if so, then half a season could. let's hear it, tell somebody else and then they can put it here. people are only going to get more irratated.

[RATM]

For those of you who are complaining about things like minutes, posting of minutes and agenda, may I suggest you pick up a copy of "Roberts Rules of Order"

 

http://en.wikipedia...._Rules_of_Order. This is what they are trying to stick to. I'm not saying they are doing a great job but it's a start.

 

Has PHRF/LE ever hosted their meetings on Skype? That would be interesting.

[watersong26]

Lets move on...

Mills Race, Cleveland Race week... here before we know it! Who is doing what?