388 replies to this topic

[EaglesPDX]

Green Comm Challenge is an organization founded and led by Francesco De Leo that actively promotes the development of energy conservation technology and practices in the field of Information and Communications Technology (ICT). Green Comm Challenge achieved worldwide notoriety in 2007, when it enlisted as one of the challengers in the 33rd edition of the America's Cup,[1] an effort meant to show how researchers, technologists and entrepreneurs from around the world can be brought together by an exciting vision: building the ultimate renewable energy machine, a competitive America's Cup boat.

This is totally Stingray's guess but couldn't see talking about it under "Venezia Challenge". So if it turns out to be Luna Rossa, Stingray takes the bullet.

That they were ready to jump into AC33 and the basis for their challenge makes AC34 even more of an appropriate promotional platform for them. I was initially disappointed it wasn't Luna Rossa but I like the basis for Green Comm's challenge and it so fits the hard wing catamarans as a showcase for their renewable energy pitch.

I wonder what the connection is with GreenCom which is the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) green communications initiative, eliminating paper for electronic documents and replacing high carbon jet set business trips with teleconferencing. They sound related.

[Stingray]

Right on, could get very interesting. Good placeholder..

[~HHN92~]

As good a choice as any other......................

[EaglesPDX]

Right on, could get very interesting. Good placeholder..

Interesting older article from Valencia Sailing on Green Comm.

Green Comm Challenge starts catamarn tests. [Source: Green Comm Challenge] May 10, 2009 Professor Mario Gerla, from UCLA, Computer Science Department (University of California Los Angeles), and Professor Giovanni Lombardi, Department of Engineering at University of Pisa, met the Green Comm Challenge Team at Circolo Vela Gargnano. The meeting took place to analyze the data collected through a number of routine tests carried out by training aboard a catamaran class C, the glorious "Signor G" which took part in the "Little America's Cup". The "Green Comm" crew is going through a selection process headed by Angelo Glisoni, past world champion in the Tornado olympic class, coach of the Italian Team at the Olympic Games in Athens 2004 and Beijing 2008.

[EaglesPDX]

Right on, could get very interesting. Good placeholder..

And Green Comm is Italian, not Spanish, so the rumors picked up by Stuart Alexander in San Francisco that it was another Italian challenge would also dovetail with Green Comm.

[woofwoof]

here's (the glorious) C-Cat SIGNOR G in the LAC

back in the day...

Attached Files

•  PL File -38.jpg   106.22K   56 downloads

[Xlot]

Please. None of those guys had anything to do with Signor G - which could be called 'intriguing' for many of its innovations (which didn't quite work out for various reasons, however), certainly not 'glorious'. And it was so complicated that I'm positive it never sailed again with a wing, it may have been converted to a conventional soft sail.

[BTW ww, you haven't found those Miss Lancia pictures, have you?]

[Stingray]

At the same time, GC having been interested in an early wing sailed experimental C Cat, at a time before any of us realized OR was headed in that direction, is at least a touch intriguing.

Eagles has not yet posted an interview with de Leo at VS that you may recall too, which was also remarkable for its prescience for larger reasons. Despite the comments posted by anonymous ignoramuses below it after he spoke.

Again: Why did these sites, 6 of them, get registered this past week and all go live with a GreenCommRacing logo?

What is the history?

Wings, and multihulls, is for sure all in there. Audacity too.

[EaglesPDX]

What is the history?

Wings, and multihulls, is for sure all in there. Audacity too.

And America's Cup 33 challenge.

America's Cup 34 with its 21st century technology and hard wings certainly suits Green Comm's sustainable energy theme much better than AC33 did. And its Green Comm Racing vs. their other interests and it dovetails with Alexander's hint of another Italian challenge.

I think Luna Rossa's still in the running though due to their joining the X40 Extreme Sailing circuit. Cayard said that Artemis did that because of AC34 and the X40 doesn't seem to be Luna Rossa's style which begs for reasons why they joined.

Either way, can't lose proposition, two excellent potential challengers.

At this point, I'd prefer the new blood of Green Comm.

[Hippie]

GreenComm would be sailing under the Valencia burgee.

[Stingray]

GreenComm would be sailing under the Valencia burgee.

Fits with some earlier news reports out of Spain, that they had been talking to the RCNV (?) Yacht Club.

We still have no proof of Green Comm Racing announcing on Thursday but your suggestion here, combined with the site having some fresh activity, do both suggest it.

Any idea if they will sail the ACWS?

[GauchoGreg]

GreenComm would be sailing under the Valencia burgee.

Fits with some earlier news reports out of Spain, that they had been talking to the RCNV (?) Yacht Club.

We still have no proof of Green Comm Racing announcing on Thursday but your suggestion here, combined with the site having some fresh activity, do both suggest it.

Any idea if they will sail the ACWS?

I guess I'm still confused, don't they really have to if they want to be in the AC? I just thought, now, you did not have to make such a big commitment to the AC if you want to be in the ACWS?

[Stingray]

GreenComm would be sailing under the Valencia burgee.

Fits with some earlier news reports out of Spain, that they had been talking to the RCNV (?) Yacht Club.

We still have no proof of Green Comm Racing announcing on Thursday but your suggestion here, combined with the site having some fresh activity, do both suggest it.

Any idea if they will sail the ACWS?

I guess I'm still confused, don't they really have to if they want to be in the AC? I just thought, now, you did not have to make such a big commitment to the AC if you want to be in the ACWS?

The line, and the tense, was just intended as bait for more info

[GauchoGreg]

GreenComm would be sailing under the Valencia burgee.

Fits with some earlier news reports out of Spain, that they had been talking to the RCNV (?) Yacht Club.

We still have no proof of Green Comm Racing announcing on Thursday but your suggestion here, combined with the site having some fresh activity, do both suggest it.

Any idea if they will sail the ACWS?

I guess I'm still confused, don't they really have to if they want to be in the AC? I just thought, now, you did not have to make such a big commitment to the AC if you want to be in the ACWS?

The line, and the tense, was just intended as bait for more info

Sorry, my espresso machine has not been run, yet, this morning.

[Stingray]

Bingo, told ya


Green Comm to officially present 34th America's Challenge on Thursday in Valencia
Posted on 20 June 2011 by Valencia Sailing

[Stingray]

One of the people listed above, Luca Devoti

http://www.devotisailing.com/home.php



edit, and Marco Nannini:


Marco Nannini - Ocean Racing

[GauchoGreg]

Well, Stingray, you have been calling for this for months. I kept thinking Telefonica might have been the team to come out of Spain, but you were always on the Greencom train. Nice call.

You Green-Comm Sycophant!

[Stingray]

Well, Stingray, you have been calling for this for months. I kept thinking Telefonica might have been the team to come out of Spain, but you were always on the Greencom train. Nice call.

You Green-Comm Sycophant!

Thanks, GG, guess my homing-in instincts were strong

Real Club Nautico de Valencia (Rennie will remember being at this club)
http://www.rcnauticovalencia.com/

Fabio Marazzi:
http://www.emmeplus....s-of-expo-2015/

[blakie]

and we were just talking about +39 on another thread.....oh lord

[Dixie]

Probably worth another thread, but this great new development leaves me with this question:

What teams are missing and who - individually and teams - will we miss?

I would like to see Canada and Alinghi.

I also miss Brad Butterworth.

Not that I'm the biggest fan of these teams and person, but I'd like to see Canada in it again - there are a lot of great and affable Canadian sailors - and would love for the sheer rivalry of it to see Alinghi and BB.

[GauchoGreg]

US Challenge (Quantum, Lewis, et al)
Alinghi
Aussies
Russians (Synergy?)
Brits (Origin?)
Japanese

[Stingray]

From Las Provincias in Valencia


Valencia tendrá un equipo en la 34 Copa América

g-tran to english link:

Valencia will have a team in the 34th America's Cup

[GauchoGreg]

From Las Provincias in Valencia


Valencia tendrá un equipo en la 34 Copa América

g-tran to english link:

Valencia will have a team in the 34th America's Cup

So, does it sound like GreenComm entered back in March? Also, does it also, from that Google Translation, sound like they already have their full funding for AT LEAST $50 Million?

[Stingray]

From Las Provincias in Valencia


Valencia tendrá un equipo en la 34 Copa América

g-tran to english link:

Valencia will have a team in the 34th America's Cup

So, does it sound like GreenComm entered back in March? Also, does it also, from that Google Translation, sound like they already have their full funding for AT LEAST $50 Million?

I happen to think they entered some time back, yes, even before Team China.

As to the announcement timing, and a curious Expo/Milan link, this is at least curious. Not ready to believe the Alinghi tie-in though.

http://nauta360.expa...1308597484.html

oops, edit, gtran: http://translate.goo...1308597484.html

[Stingray]

So, does it sound like GreenComm entered back in March?

I happen to think they entered some time back, yes, even before Team China.

gtran: http://translate.goo...1308597484.html

bingo: "Official registration took place last February"

[GauchoGreg]

So, this is not a "Johnnie-Come-Lately" team, then. I wonder if they are one of the teams expecting their AC45 in this most recent shipment. It would be fun if they unveiled their boat at their announcement on the 23rd. Has the container ship heading to Valencia arrived yet?

[Stingray]

So, this is not a "Johnnie-Come-Lately" team, then. I wonder if they are one of the teams expecting their AC45 in this most recent shipment. It would be fun if they unveiled their boat at their announcement on the 23rd. Has the container ship heading to Valencia arrived yet?

Good questions. I hope GR reveal some of it on Thursday wrt if they will have an AC45 to themselves come Cascais. I expect they will say, since why not?

And yes, if it is on an earlier ship then it could even be headed direct to Valencia and due to arrive with AR and China. That would be cool!

Saw a site somewhere from today showing photos of the AC Cat RC boat leaving RCNV, headed towards Lisbon. So there's going to be action in both locations beginning soon.

[Xlot]

Can anybody guess what I'm going to say?

If you think there's a chance in hell GC will get a single Euro from MilanExpo ..

The by-elections of two weeks ago resulted in a new Mayor not only in Naples, but also ..

[Stingray]

Can anybody guess what I'm going to say?

If you think there's a chance in hell GC will get a single Euro from MilanExpo ..

The by-elections of two weeks ago resulted in a new Mayor not only in Naples, but also ..

As a matter of fact, yes I did see that one coming, and from you!

But is that what is being suggested?

Todo apunta que el patrocinador inicial del sindicato de vela será la Expo 2015 que tendrá lugar en Milán dentro de cuatro años.
All indications are that the union's original sponsor ensures that Expo 2015 will take place in Milan in four years.

The translation almost reads like just : All indications are that the team's original sponsor ensured that Expo 2015 will take place in Milan in four years. Which may suggest he is a man of some power. There was a competition for hosting it back in 2008 and Milan won it, by 23 votes (saw it at Wiki, somewhere)

edit/re-post:

Fabio Marazzi:
http://www.emmeplus....s-of-expo-2015/

He is to be at the presentation.

edit2: more
Fabio Marazzi is expert in innovation and internationalization, with focus on the life science, nanotechnology, aerospace and defence sectors and particularly with regard to issues of exploitation of industrial property and technology transfer processes.

[Stingray]

Something else from at Las P, where they are also sniffing around for the money sources

http://translate.goo...dr:w&prmd=ivnso

"In the press conference the day after tomorrow will be a representative of Expo 2015, Fabio Marazzi, who is managing partner of Emmeplus. Expo 2015 is the Universal Exposition to be held in the Italian city of Milan in four years. It is the only 'smell' of a sponsorship.

[Xlot]

But is that what is being suggested?

Todo apunta que el patrocinador inicial del sindicato de vela será la Expo 2015 que tendrá lugar en Milán dentro de cuatro años.
All indications are that the union's original sponsor ensures that Expo 2015 will take place in Milan in four years.

The translation almost reads like just : All indications are that the team's original sponsor ensured that Expo 2015 will take place in Milan in four years. Which may suggest he is a man of some power. There was a competition for hosting it back in 2008 and Milan won it, by 23 votes (saw it at Wiki, somewhere)

Not quite - the correct translation is: "All indications are that the sailing syndicate's initial sponsor will be Expo 2015, which will take place in Milan in four years".

As you mention, Milan was awarded the exhibition (beating Smirne, Turkey IIRC) in 2008 with the Mayor belonging to Berlusconi's party. And guess what? Actual work hasn't started yet, the budget is ballooning and the original, winning, 'green' theme is being replaced by land speculation. This was one of the causes of a major upset in the election, with the new Mayor being not just center-left, but progressive left. Need I say more?

So, the Marazzi guy may well sit on the Expo board, but he's a relic of the past.

Something else from at Las P, where they are also sniffing around for the money sources

http://translate.goo...%26prmd%3Divnso

Hope the translation's clear enough, the original gives a very clear idea of how iffy the thing is ..

[Summerwind]

"A friendly competition between nations"

Now we have an Italian team challenging with the help of a Spanish yachtclub.

This whole yachtclub thing is really becoming ridiculous. .

[Stingray]

Sw, but how much more friendly can it get?

Xlot, maybe the land speculating will work out splendidly?



I can't imagine de Leo is going into this blind, but perhaps like Aleph he will make it clear that he is aiming just at the ACWS for now, if that is where he's at. Either way is fine by me, so long as he brings a good team to watch and enjoy. A kickass AC72 would be an awesome follow through, of course..

[EaglesPDX]

"In the press conference the day after tomorrow will be a representative of Expo 2015, Fabio Marazzi, who is managing partner of Emmeplus. Expo 2015 is the Universal Exposition to be held in the Italian city of Milan in four years. It is the only 'smell' of a sponsorship.

So why did Green Comm give up on its original Italian Yacht Club representative, Circolo Vela Gargnano, and go with Valencia YC? I understand there is a business connection but the people and basis of the challenge are Italian as they were in AC33 time period.

Valencia Sailing had an interview with Green Comm syndicate head Francesco de Leo in May of 2009 and then it was all Italian. Nothing seems to have changed but now they are a Spanish entry?

[Stingray]

De Leo has a history of being near the top of Spanish telecoms, iirc. That could be another tie, besides what he said in late March to Las Provincias about RCNV being a good club to represent for logistical purposes, including having space for an AC72.

Stands to reason there is good Spanish sailing talent available too.

[EaglesPDX]

De Leo has a history of being near the top of Spanish telecoms, iirc. That could be another tie, besides what he said in late March to Las Provincias about RCNV being a good club to represent for logistical purposes, including having space for an AC72.

Stands to reason there is good Spanish sailing talent available too.

He mentions his time as head of Spanish telcom but as part of Italian corporation and everything in the Green Comm challenge is Italian and points to Milan Expo in a couple years. Everything is Italian except the representative yacht club. i guess there is a story there. Hopefully one of the Society of Nautical Scribes will suss that out.

[dogwatch]

Also, does it also, from that Google Translation, sound like they already have their full funding for AT LEAST $50 Million?

Doesn't read that way to me. The piece is asking a question, not making an assertion:

The most important right now and should be made clear in Thursday's filing is whether the union has the financial resources needed to tackle a race like the America's Cup in which teams will have to make a minimum outlay of 50 million euros to be competitive.

[dogwatch]

"A friendly competition between nations"

Now we have an Italian team challenging with the help of a Spanish yachtclub.

So it's a Euro-entry. All it needs to be perfect is for the German taxpayer to be footing the bill.

[dogwatch]

As you mention, Milan was awarded the exhibition (beating Smirne, Turkey IIRC) in 2008 with the Mayor belonging to Berlusconi's party. And guess what? Actual work hasn't started yet, the budget is ballooning and the original, winning, 'green' theme is being replaced by land speculation. This was one of the causes of a major upset in the election, with the new Mayor being not just center-left, but progressive left. Need I say more?

There was a piece in a recent Economist suggesting the Berlusconi era is drawing to a close. The Economist is not exactly a member of Berlusconi's fan club and has something of an interest in that prediction but nevertheless, there's a suggestion that the power base around Berlusconi may be heading to be yesterday's men.

[GauchoGreg]

Also, does it also, from that Google Translation, sound like they already have their full funding for AT LEAST $50 Million?

Doesn't read that way to me. The piece is asking a question, not making an assertion:

The most important right now and should be made clear in Thursday's filing is whether the union has the financial resources needed to tackle a race like the America's Cup in which teams will have to make a minimum outlay of 50 million euros to be competitive.

Me-no-Speakup, and relying on Google without question-marks made me think the sentence was a comment that they did have the funds. No confidence in that thought, though. Hopefully, they have the lettuce. Would be nice to have another solid team.

[roca]

As you mention, Milan was awarded the exhibition (beating Smirne, Turkey IIRC) in 2008 with the Mayor belonging to Berlusconi's party. And guess what? Actual work hasn't started yet, the budget is ballooning and the original, winning, 'green' theme is being replaced by land speculation. This was one of the causes of a major upset in the election, with the new Mayor being not just center-left, but progressive left. Need I say more?

There was a piece in a recent Economist suggesting the Berlusconi era is drawing to a close. The Economist is not exactly a member of Berlusconi's fan club and has something of an interest in that prediction but nevertheless, there's a suggestion that the power base around Berlusconi may be heading to be yesterday's men.

you can ask Vincenzo about this...

[dogwatch]

you can ask Vincenzo about this...

If I run across him down the pub I will. Meanwhile, would you care to elucidate?

[Xlot]

you can ask Vincenzo about this...

If I run across him down the pub I will. Meanwhile, would you care to elucidate?

He's obviously referring to VO foolishly relying on government support - same as those pushing for the crazy Fiumicino AC venue, same as those in Naples dreaming of two (!!) ACWS.

Some people find it hard to break off old habits ..


Oh, FV says Luca Devoti is assembling the crew for the 45, and he'll be calling mostly on his Finn friends. Good luck to them when they try to 'pump' the wing ..

[blakie]

you can ask Vincenzo about this...

If I run across him down the pub I will. Meanwhile, would you care to elucidate?

He's obviously referring to VO foolishly relying on government support - same as those pushing for the crazy Fiumicino AC venue, same as those in Naples dreaming of two (!!) ACWS.

Some people find it hard to break off old habits ..


Oh, FV says Luca Devoti is assembling the crew for the 45, and he'll be calling mostly on his Finn friends. Good luck to them when they try to 'pump' the wing ..

and collect their pay checks

[Stingray]

Suggests it will be ACWS focussed. g-tran: http://www.abc.es/ag...?noticia=855540

[Stingray]

FV suggests they have already purchased an AC45

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.farevela.com/articoli-vela/news-online/coppa-america/americas-cup-34--lottavo-team-sfidante-e-green-comm-racing-luca-devoti-skipper_12112.asp&ei=K6oATrHyDIf4swP6o4CUDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CFgQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522green%2Bcomm%2Bracing%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_it%26safe%3Doff%26tbo%3D1%26biw%3D1021%26bih%3D483%26tbs%3Dsbd:1,qdr:d,lr:lang_1it%26prmd%3Divns

...
As shown in Farevelanet, the team would have a strong sport with a lot of great sailors athletic training. Luca Devoti avrebbe chiamato diversi finnisti del livello top mondiale. Luca Devoti finnisti he called several of the world's top level. Giovedì conosceremo i dettagli dell'operazione ei fondi a disposizione del team. Thursday we will know the details of the transaction and the funds available to the team. Il team avrebbe già comprato il suo AC45 e sarà presente a Cascais per la prima tappa delle AC World Series a inizio agosto. The team has already bought his, and AC45 will be in Lisbon for the first leg of the AC World Series in early August.

[GauchoGreg]

Suggests it will be ACWS focussed. g-tran: http://www.abc.es/ag...?noticia=855540

Well, the suggestion is that they were not going to commit until they had the funding in place to compete in this year's ACWS, not that they were not doing the AC. HOWEVER, I hope they are also moving with whatever plans they have for their AC72 . . . . Either way, better to have them involved then not to. Hopefully Cascais proves the viability of the vision, and all these teams get a big shot in the arm.

[EaglesPDX]

Suggests it will be ACWS focussed. g-tran: http://www.abc.es/ag...?noticia=855540

Hopefully one of the journalists at the press conference will ask them that question. Is this only to participate in the AC45 races?

If so, is that an America's Cup Challenge? I could see a challenger opting out of the AC45 to concentrate resources on the America's Cup and AC72's but to drop out of the America's Cup to just race the AC45's, doesn't seem to be a point to that.

[GauchoGreg]

Suggests it will be ACWS focussed. g-tran: http://www.abc.es/ag...?noticia=855540

Hopefully one of the journalists at the press conference will ask them that question. Is this only to participate in the AC45 races?

If so, is that an America's Cup Challenge? I could see a challenger opting out of the AC45 to concentrate resources on the America's Cup and AC72's but to drop out of the America's Cup to just race the AC45's, doesn't seem to be a point to that.

Sorry, I ask again, but I thought that was still not an option (doing just the AC)? I thought the protocol changes simply made it such that the financial risk to go into the whole process was lower, and that teams can not just participate in the ACWS. But to do the AC, you still have to do the ACWS. Am I missing something?

Anyway, no one is likely, who has been involved in the game as long as February or March (at which point, you were in for the Whole Enchilada), to say they are only in for the ACWS. Not at this point. Maybe come September, if the funds to move forward do not materialize. I could see it if a team like Red Bull, who had not been entertaining the AC, jumped into the ACWS game. But not a team like GreenComm.

[Xlot]

...
As shown in Farevelanet, the team would have a strong sport with a lot of great sailors athletic training. Luca Devoti avrebbe chiamato diversi finnisti del livello top mondiale. Luca Devoti finnisti he called several of the world's top level. Giovedì conosceremo i dettagli dell'operazione ei fondi a disposizione del team. Thursday we will know the details of the transaction and the funds available to the team. Il team avrebbe già comprato il suo AC45 e sarà presente a Cascais per la prima tappa delle AC World Series a inizio agosto. The team has already bought his, and AC45 will be in Lisbon for the first leg of the AC World Series in early August.

You might want to beef up on the conditional tense in various European languages, SR: "avrebbe", "aurait", "habría", "teria" - no need to bother Rennie for German, they seem pretty disgusted and are ignoring the affair.

But sure, GC will be in Cascais: ten 45s have been built, ten 45s will be raced somehow ..

[EaglesPDX]

Anyway, no one is likely, who has been involved in the game as long as February or March (at which point, you were in for the Whole Enchilada), to say they are only in for the ACWS.

But that is what the article quotes (misquotes) Green Comm as saying, just in it for AC45's.

I though the AC45 was now optional for the AC Challengers but still exclusive for AC challengers?

[GauchoGreg]

Anyway, no one is likely, who has been involved in the game as long as February or March (at which point, you were in for the Whole Enchilada), to say they are only in for the ACWS.

But that is what the article quotes (misquotes) Green Comm as saying, just in it for AC45's.

Not the way I read it. To me, it just states they announced when they knew they had the money to do the ACWS this year, not that they aren't planning for the AC. In fact, the whole story, to me, talks about an AC challenge, not just ACWS participation. This is where the stock plans for the AC72 can really help some of these teams out.

I though the AC45 was now optional for the AC Challengers but still exclusive for AC challengers?

Not the way I understand it.

[blakie]

i find interesting that any italian team with valencia backing would hire Devotti or anyone esle from +39 leadership after they left everyone hanging for their cash after the 2007 cup? i guess 4 years is along time....burned once ok maybe mistake burned twice you are a fool

[nav]

i find interesting that any italian team with valencia backing would hire Devotti or anyone esle from +39 leadership after they left everyone hanging for their cash after the 2007 cup? i guess 4 years is along time....burned once ok maybe mistake burned twice you are a fool

Channelling G.W. Bush there?

[blakie]

no just common sense and good business practice

something is just not right here

[EaglesPDX]

and we were just talking about +39 on another thread.....oh lord

From Valencia Sailing 2007 Interview: Francesco de Leo: Wait, stop here. Lets make things clear. There is no relation between +39 Challenge and Green Comm Challenge. I understand that +39 has been a complicated and difficult situation but in 2007 I was NOT in Valencia, I was in another part of the world doing something completely different. If anyone still claims we are a continuation of +39 makes a big mistake.

[KiwiJoker]

Suggests it will be ACWS focussed. g-tran: http://www.abc.es/ag...?noticia=855540

Hopefully one of the journalists at the press conference will ask them that question. Is this only to participate in the AC45 races?

If so, is that an America's Cup Challenge? I could see a challenger opting out of the AC45 to concentrate resources on the America's Cup and AC72's but to drop out of the America's Cup to just race the AC45's, doesn't seem to be a point to that.

Sorry, I ask again, but I thought that was still not an option (doing just the AC)? I thought the protocol changes simply made it such that the financial risk to go into the whole process was lower, and that teams can not just participate in the ACWS. But to do the AC, you still have to do the ACWS. Am I missing something?

Anyway, no one is likely, who has been involved in the game as long as February or March (at which point, you were in for the Whole Enchilada), to say they are only in for the ACWS. Not at this point. Maybe come September, if the funds to move forward do not materialize. I could see it if a team like Red Bull, who had not been entertaining the AC, jumped into the ACWS game. But not a team like GreenComm.

You're right of course. Don't make the mistake of following the blue course line!

This is what the Protocol, after Amendment #8, has to say:

9.3. By 10 June 2011, all Competitors shall enter into an agreement with ACRM for the
purchase of at least one AC45, and shall have paid the non-refundable deposit required by
ACRM. A Competitor failing to do so shall cease to be eligible for the Event and for
entitlements under Articles 5, 27 and 41, and all bonds and fees paid by such Competitor
shall be forfeited. This does not prevent such a Competitor from applying for a late entry
under Article 7.1 or Article 8.1.

There's lots more in the Protocol that I won't quote here, and with lots of interdependent clauses. On a cursory read of the current document, I couldn't find a stated obligation to compete in AC 72s. The penalties for failing to compete in AC 45s are still in place but the Regatta Director now has the authority to waive penalties, if warranted. For those who don't join the big boys, the obvious downside is that they will forfeit performance bonds and their share of surplus revenues, if any!

[GauchoGreg]

Suggests it will be ACWS focussed. g-tran: http://www.abc.es/ag...?noticia=855540

Hopefully one of the journalists at the press conference will ask them that question. Is this only to participate in the AC45 races?

If so, is that an America's Cup Challenge? I could see a challenger opting out of the AC45 to concentrate resources on the America's Cup and AC72's but to drop out of the America's Cup to just race the AC45's, doesn't seem to be a point to that.

Sorry, I ask again, but I thought that was still not an option (doing just the AC)? I thought the protocol changes simply made it such that the financial risk to go into the whole process was lower, and that teams can not just participate in the ACWS. But to do the AC, you still have to do the ACWS. Am I missing something?

Anyway, no one is likely, who has been involved in the game as long as February or March (at which point, you were in for the Whole Enchilada), to say they are only in for the ACWS. Not at this point. Maybe come September, if the funds to move forward do not materialize. I could see it if a team like Red Bull, who had not been entertaining the AC, jumped into the ACWS game. But not a team like GreenComm.

You're right of course. Don't make the mistake of following the blue course line!

This is what the Protocol, after Amendment #8, has to say:

9.3. By 10 June 2011, all Competitors shall enter into an agreement with ACRM for the
purchase of at least one AC45, and shall have paid the non-refundable deposit required by
ACRM. A Competitor failing to do so shall cease to be eligible for the Event and for
entitlements under Articles 5, 27 and 41, and all bonds and fees paid by such Competitor
shall be forfeited. This does not prevent such a Competitor from applying for a late entry
under Article 7.1 or Article 8.1.

There's lots more in the Protocol that I won't quote here, and with lots of interdependent clauses. On a cursory read of the current document, I couldn't find a stated obligation to compete in AC 72s. The penalties for failing to compete in AC 45s are still in place but the Regatta Director now has the authority to waive penalties, if warranted. For those who don't join the big boys, the obvious downside is that they will forfeit performance bonds and their share of surplus revenues, if any!

Thanks. That's the way I keep reading it. The financial risk associated with participating in the ACWS without knowing for sure you are going to be able to make a go of it for the AC is significantly reduced, but you still gotta do the ACWS if you want to do the AC, unless you feel confident that Oracle is going to let you into the AC without the ACWS. If there are at least 6 challengers, I don't see GGYC/Oracle letting you play in the AC without having gone through the ACWS, unless it would be very beneficial to GGYC. Other than a defense challenger, I don't know that there are many teams out there that GGYC would see as being very beneficial to them and let in (maybe the Aussies, maybe some British team).

[Tornado-Cat]

Suggests it will be ACWS focussed. g-tran: http://www.abc.es/ag...?noticia=855540

Hopefully one of the journalists at the press conference will ask them that question. Is this only to participate in the AC45 races?

If so, is that an America's Cup Challenge? I could see a challenger opting out of the AC45 to concentrate resources on the America's Cup and AC72's but to drop out of the America's Cup to just race the AC45's, doesn't seem to be a point to that.

Sorry, I ask again, but I thought that was still not an option (doing just the AC)? I thought the protocol changes simply made it such that the financial risk to go into the whole process was lower, and that teams can not just participate in the ACWS. But to do the AC, you still have to do the ACWS. Am I missing something?

Anyway, no one is likely, who has been involved in the game as long as February or March (at which point, you were in for the Whole Enchilada), to say they are only in for the ACWS. Not at this point. Maybe come September, if the funds to move forward do not materialize. I could see it if a team like Red Bull, who had not been entertaining the AC, jumped into the ACWS game. But not a team like GreenComm.

You're right of course. Don't make the mistake of following the blue course line!

This is what the Protocol, after Amendment #8, has to say:

9.3. By 10 June 2011, all Competitors shall enter into an agreement with ACRM for the
purchase of at least one AC45, and shall have paid the non-refundable deposit required by
ACRM. A Competitor failing to do so shall cease to be eligible for the Event and for
entitlements under Articles 5, 27 and 41, and all bonds and fees paid by such Competitor
shall be forfeited. This does not prevent such a Competitor from applying for a late entry
under Article 7.1 or Article 8.1.

There's lots more in the Protocol that I won't quote here, and with lots of interdependent clauses. On a cursory read of the current document, I couldn't find a stated obligation to compete in AC 72s. The penalties for failing to compete in AC 45s are still in place but the Regatta Director now has the authority to waive penalties, if warranted. For those who don't join the big boys, the obvious downside is that they will forfeit performance bonds and their share of surplus revenues, if any!

Thanks. That's the way I keep reading it. The financial risk associated with participating in the ACWS without knowing for sure you are going to be able to make a go of it for the AC is significantly reduced, but you still gotta do the ACWS if you want to do the AC, unless you feel confident that Oracle is going to let you into the AC without the ACWS. If there are at least 6 challengers, I don't see GGYC/Oracle letting you play in the AC without having gone through the ACWS, unless it would be very beneficial to GGYC. Other than a defense challenger, I don't know that there are many teams out there that GGYC would see as being very beneficial to them and let in (maybe the Aussies, maybe some British team).

You K-J are obviously right. As K_J mentions the protocol is longer and a bit more complicated. If we try to make it simple:
- you participate in the ACWS only but accept to loose your 200 000 $ bond, which is acceptable IMO for some teams
- if you don't participate to ACWS you lose your right to AC72
- if you are late entry (after ACWS) you can be accepted by GGYC
- if you miss some races and risk to loose your participation in LVC you can ask the IJ
And...........maybe some teams already have some kind of secret agreement with TE for a late entry. If that is the case it will not be publicized...

[KiwiJoker]

You're right of course. Don't make the mistake of following the blue course line!

This is what the Protocol, after Amendment #8, has to say:

9.3. By 10 June 2011, all Competitors shall enter into an agreement with ACRM for the
purchase of at least one AC45, and shall have paid the non-refundable deposit required by
ACRM. A Competitor failing to do so shall cease to be eligible for the Event and for
entitlements under Articles 5, 27 and 41, and all bonds and fees paid by such Competitor
shall be forfeited. This does not prevent such a Competitor from applying for a late entry
under Article 7.1 or Article 8.1.

There's lots more in the Protocol that I won't quote here, and with lots of interdependent clauses. On a cursory read of the current document, I couldn't find a stated obligation to compete in AC 72s. The penalties for failing to compete in AC 45s are still in place but the Regatta Director now has the authority to waive penalties, if warranted. For those who don't join the big boys, the obvious downside is that they will forfeit performance bonds and their share of surplus revenues, if any!

Thanks. That's the way I keep reading it. The financial risk associated with participating in the ACWS without knowing for sure you are going to be able to make a go of it for the AC is significantly reduced, but you still gotta do the ACWS if you want to do the AC, unless you feel confident that Oracle is going to let you into the AC without the ACWS. If there are at least 6 challengers, I don't see GGYC/Oracle letting you play in the AC without having gone through the ACWS, unless it would be very beneficial to GGYC. Other than a defense challenger, I don't know that there are many teams out there that GGYC would see as being very beneficial to them and let in (maybe the Aussies, maybe some British team).

You K-J are obviously right. As K_J mentions the protocol is longer and a bit more complicated. If we try to make it simple:
- you participate in the ACWS only but accept to loose your 200 000 $ bond, which is acceptable IMO for some teams
- if you don't participate to ACWS you lose your right to AC72
- if you are late entry (after ACWS) you can be accepted by GGYC
- if you miss some races and risk to loose your participation in LVC you can ask the IJ
And...........maybe some teams already have some kind of secret agreement with TE for a late entry. If that is the case it will not be publicized...

Thanks TC. Looks like an excellent summary to me. GG's take on it is good too.

Just one thing to be sure we agree. As I read it, you can be a late entry into the ACWS only under two conditions: 1> A Race Director waiver for events beyond your control, or 2> You pay penalties for missing the first two regattas.

However there is nothing that states you can be a late entry after the conclusion of the ACWS events.

[Tornado-Cat]

Is this forum dead, or brain dead ?

Green Comm is "in", we have 3 pages and only one good point, adressed by Blakie, on the subject.

Are they vetted ? They are not on the official site yet......But could be fun to have another Italian Pinocchio team .

If the YC is Spanish, we have a Spanish challenge with an Italian team. This is feasible with the new rules, but it makes a joke of the Deed.

And who is Green Comm ?

do they have money, or debts ? did they finally pay their sailors ? who is financing? the owner of the company ? hum hum...

did they buy an AC45, or is it going to be chartered by Or ?

who is in the team ?

Is it a desperate attempt by Worth to find a new team to show the numbers to Larry?

Why was the team undeclared for so long ?

Is Larry aware of this drama team ? In fact I wish we had them with the Russians.......................................... LMAO.

[EaglesPDX]

Are they vetted ? They are not on the official site yet......But could be fun to have another Italian Pinocchio team . If the YC is Spanish, we have a Spanish challenge with an Italian team. This is feasible with the new rules, but it makes a joke of the Deed. And who is Green Comm ? do they have money, or debts ? did they finally pay their sailors ? who is financing? the owner of the company ? hum hum... did they buy an AC45, or is it going to be chartered by Or ? who is in the team ? Is it a desperate attempt by Worth to find a new team to show the numbers to Larry? Why was the team undeclared for so long ?Is Larry aware of this drama team ?

Not sure your lack of information and sheer terror of ANOTHER AC34 Challenger is a problem for anyone but you and the other nattering nabobs of AC34 negatitivity on ACA. There's a lot of information on the Green Comm America's Cup challengers since they were involved in AC33.

June 23 is the announced press conference day so we'll see what questions get asked and answered.

They sound like a great addition. Their high tech "message" of sustainable power meshing perfectly with the most advanced wind power machines on the planet.

[ro!]

Are they vetted ? They are not on the official site yet......But could be fun to have another Italian Pinocchio team . If the YC is Spanish, we have a Spanish challenge with an Italian team. This is feasible with the new rules, but it makes a joke of the Deed.
And who is Green Comm ? do they have money, or debts ? did they finally pay their sailors ? who is financing? the owner of the company ? hum hum... did they buy an AC45, or is it going to be chartered by Or ?
who is in the team ? Is it a desperate attempt by Worth to find a new team to show the numbers to Larry? Why was the team undeclared for so long ?Is Larry aware of this drama team ?

Not sure your lack of information and sheer terror of ANOTHER AC34 Challenger is a problem for anyone but you and the other nattering nabobs of AC34 negatitivity on ACA. There's a lot of information on the Green Comm America's Cup challengers since they were involved in AC33.

June 23 is the announced press conference day so we'll see what questions get asked and answered.

They sound like a great addition. Their high tech "message" of sustainable power meshing perfecting with the most advanced wind power machines on the planet.

You wasn't around here in the run up to 33...maybe you should do a search and find out what the oracle fan boys had to say about green comm then...

[kiwi_jon]

You K-J are obviously right. As K_J mentions the protocol is longer and a bit more complicated. If we try to make it simple:
- you participate in the ACWS only but accept to loose your 200 000 $ bond, which is acceptable IMO for some teams
- if you don't participate to ACWS you lose your right to AC72
- if you are late entry (after ACWS) you can be accepted by GGYC
- if you miss some races and risk to loose your participation in LVC you can ask the IJ
And...........maybe some teams already have some kind of secret agreement with TE for a late entry. If that is the case it will not be publicized...

Close.

The $200,000 performance bond has been done away with. It is now a $100,000 entry fee to complete in the ACWS, due Aug 1 2011. A $200,000 entry fee to compete the CSS and Match is due June 2012.

The penalty for not competing in a ACWS regatta (without a really good excuse) is $150,000 for the first regatta. Miss a second regatta and you are toast. Out of the ACWS and LV Cup.

I suspect that the Late Entry clause is more geared towards Defender candidates. There would be more than a few unhappy Challengers, who have spent millions of dollars competing in the ACWS, if GGYC were to accept a Challenger who did not have to compete in the ACWS, especially if that Challenger was one that had already entered then withdrew.

[EaglesPDX]

You wasn't around here in the run up to 33...maybe you should do a search and find out what the oracle fan boys had to say about green comm then...

Francesco de Leo: Your question is legitimate but I think that the major error you commit is that you can't manage the America's Cup thinking it's just a sailing event. The America's Cup is a business. The choice we have made since the beginning is to have a green agenda, our statement that this will become the cornerstone of the new economy whose aim is to save the environment. It's true we are going through a crisis but we don't come to Valencia saying we are going to a regatta. It has to become a public agenda, a global media platform where we say, "Yes we are in Valencia because we want to sponsor a multihull team" but a the same time we talk about our company, about what we do, our technologies, how we satisfy the needs of our clients. The America's Cup is by far the most appropriate event but if I run the event without such a global agenda, it then becomes more difficult.

[Stingray]

My 2 cents on it too, k_j.

I will be surprised if GGYC accepts any more on the Challengers side since things are already tight logistics wise with the possibility that so many may build 72s. A defense candidate otoh benefits the chance of a successful Defense for a lot of reasons.

[EaglesPDX]

My 2 cents on it too, k_j.

I will be surprised if GGYC accepts any more on the Challengers side since things are already tight logistics wise with the possibility that so many may build 72s. A defense candidate otoh benefits the chance of a successful Defense for a lot of reasons.

Can't see the challengers concerned about a possible Defender challenge. It has no effect on their being able to win the Louis Vuitton and be the challenger. Historically, as Fisher has pointed out and argues, having Defenders challenger strengthens the defense but it's not a sure thing as Australia had challenger series in '87 and still lost the Cup to Conners.

[Stingray]

Ro, there were plenty of reasons at the time of GC's attempted 90x90 challenge to believe it was intended to support the many efforts EB was making to delay, even avoid, facing DZ.

My recollection is that at OR's invitation GC's legal counsel flew to SF and they came to an understating it would be best for GC to wait for AC34, no matter the winner. Given the rumors posted also at VS in Valencia at the time, that GC was in line to be CoR had Alinghi won, plus a likely understanding reached with OR, it is no surprise to me they were going to be happy either way.

de Leo is on record from even last year saying multihulls in AC34 was the direction it should naturally go. He's lucky OR did it; Alinghi would most definitely have, having said so even in the lead up.

[ro!]

You wasn't around here in the run up to 33...maybe you should do a search and find out what the oracle fan boys had to say about green comm then...

Francesco de Leo: Your question is legitimate but I think that the major error you commit is that you can't manage the America's Cup thinking it's just a sailing event. The America's Cup is a business. The choice we have made since the beginning is to have a green agenda, our statement that this will become the cornerstone of the new economy whose aim is to save the environment. It's true we are going through a crisis but we don't come to Valencia saying we are going to a regatta. It has to become a public agenda, a global media platform where we say, "Yes we are in Valencia because we want to sponsor a multihull team" but a the same time we talk about our company, about what we do, our technologies, how we satisfy the needs of our clients. The America's Cup is by far the most appropriate event but if I run the event without such a global agenda, it then becomes more difficult.

I guess the above makes some sense for you but you might not like what the fanboys had a say about gc18 months ago...

[Tornado-Cat]

Ro, there were plenty of reasons at the time of GC's attempted 90x90 challenge to believe it was intended to support the many efforts EB was making to delay, even avoid, facing DZ.

My recollection is that at OR's invitation GC's legal counsel flew to SF and they came to an understating it would be best for GC to wait for AC34, no matter the winner. Given the rumors posted also at VS in Valencia at the time, that GC was in line to be CoR had Alinghi won, plus a likely understanding reached with OR, it is no surprise to me they were going to be happy either way.

de Leo is on record from even last year saying multihulls in AC34 was the direction it should naturally go. He's lucky OR did it; Alinghi would most definitely have, having said so even in the lead up.

^^^^^^^^
I was waiting for this gem. Now SR and Or are defending GC after trashing it even more than Ernesto.

[Tornado-Cat]

De Leo has a history of being near the top of Spanish telecoms, iirc. That could be another tie, besides what he said in late March to Las Provincias about RCNV being a good club to represent for logistical purposes, including having space for an AC72.

Stands to reason there is good Spanish sailing talent available too.

Ro!, you have to reea that. Absolutelu hilarious to see how BoR people can turn their coat.

Here is what our 2 buddies SR / SW were saying in 2009:


SR: I think his alias is Francesco de Leo but am not certain about it. And as I recall it, for AC 32 when there was just Alinghi and BOR initially there was a press conference coming up and EB trotted this same guy out as the first CSS Challenger, under a +39 flag. It looks to be a similar situation here, if that's right.

SW: Was he on a leash ?

CLEAN : +39 is one of a handful who probably still owes Ernesto money from '07. "Good. Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day - accept this justice as a gift on my daughter's wedding day."

[Stingray]

Wow, how much time did you waste dredging that up?

Still have a monkey on your back, do ya?

Times change, let's hear what de Leo says on this coming Thursday. If you will excuse me, then I will take his word over yours.

edit: never mind the If, TC.

[Tornado-Cat]

Wow, how much time did you waste dredging that up?

Still have a monkey on your back, do ya?

Times change, let's hear what de Leo says on this coming Thursday. If you will excuse me, then I will take his word over yours.

edit: never mind the If, TC.

LOL, how much time ? no more than 2 or 3 minutes, I won't tell you how though.....

Wrong SR, it is his words against YOURS....

In fact, I think you and SW were right, Leo could be LE's man. The drama would be LE being obliged to resort to EB's man in order not to be humiliated in his own cup....

Not too bad SR, no ?

[SW Sailor]

Drama only for the Tabloid Troller - a yawn for everyone else.

Nice try to characterize how one entrant would humiliate LE by entering. If they are legit and they were declined everyone would be screaming bloody murder. Which side are you going to take ?

Try again.

[Tornado-Cat]

Drama only for the Tabloid Troller - a yawn for everyone else.

Nice try to characterize how one entrant would humiliate LE by entering. If they are legit and they were declined everyone would be screaming bloody murder. Which side are you going to take ?

Try again.

Remember SW, you were saying that they were on a leash (EB).

I can also refresh your memories, if you want on the insults you and the BoR troll squad were throwing. At the time Peelman was a real troll...

Now you say, no, evrything is find, they are ligit, which side are you going to take....

The side I take ? that you are fucken liars and hypocrits. Square and Simple.

And I hope that EB is behing GC.

[SW Sailor]

Drama only for the Tabloid Troller - a yawn for everyone else.

Nice try to characterize how one entrant would humiliate LE by entering. If they are legit and they were declined everyone would be screaming bloody murder. Which side are you going to take ?

Try again.

Remember SW, you were saying that they were on a leash (EB).

I can also refresh your memories, if you want on the insults you and the BoR troll squad were throwing. At the time Peelman was a real troll...

Now you say, no, evrything is find, they are ligit, which side are you going to take....

The side I take ? that you are fucken liars and hypocrits. Square and Simple.

And I hope that EB is behing GC.

Sorry (not really) you're wrong again.

EB had 19 leashes, not one.

Where did I say everything's fine ? (who is the liar here ??).

I hope EB is behind them too with the beating he's taking in the ESS. Your boy has fallen from grace, and hard at that.

You really should take your own advice and calm down a bit.

[dogwatch]

Wow, how much time did you waste dredging that up?

I'm not generally a fan of TC's work but this is amusing. Many of the same people who were throwing excrement at Green Challenge not so long ago are now praising the power of positive thought. As an example of human willingness to twist facts to fit their current agenda, it's quite funny.

[SW Sailor]

Wow, how much time did you waste dredging that up?

I'm not generally a fan of TC's work but this is amusing. Many of the same people who were throwing excrement at Green Challenge not so long ago are now praising the power of positive thought. As an example of human willingness to twist facts to fit their current agenda, it's quite funny.

And many of the past and current critiques of Team China have also been silenced of recent. Funny how that works.

[Xlot]

Might as well face it, guys: as far as "the greatest Cup ever" is concerned,

[furling]

Might as well face it, guys: as far as "the greatest Cup ever" is concerned,

I hear she only attends mono hull events:lol: We have Rod Stewart.. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=u1v60FITAfY

[ro!]

Might as well face it, guys: as far as "the greatest Cup ever" is concerned,

I hear she only attends mono hull events:lol: We have Rod Stewart.. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=u1v60FITAfY

Nice...

A 40yr old vid of a spotty rod in a sailor suit lip sychning badly..

That will excite the facebookers..

[furling]

Might as well face it, guys: as far as "the greatest Cup ever" is concerned,

I hear she only attends mono hull events:lol: We have Rod Stewart.. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=u1v60FITAfY

Nice...

A 40yr old vid of a spotty rod in a sailor suit lip sychning badly..

That will excite the facebookers..

Dont you know mullets are coming back...

[kiwi_jon]

Nice...

A 40yr old vid of a spotty rod in a sailor suit lip sychning badly..

That will excite the facebookers..

Try this one instead. The support song for the New Zealand Challenge in 1987.

Haven't heard it in years. Brings back memories.

[dogwatch]

A 40yr old vid of a spotty rod in a sailor suit lip sychning badly..

That will excite the facebookers..

Stranger things have happened, like the Glastonbury Festival crowd - certainly Facebook generation - going apeshit over Neil Diamond.

"Sailing" though.......they'd probably have cringe-worthy memories of their mum and dad singing it while drunk. I truly hate that song but that's because I loved Rod Stewart back when he was Rod the Mod, before he went all Vegas.

[~HHN92~]

Wow, how much time did you waste dredging that up?

I'm not generally a fan of TC's work but this is amusing. Many of the same people who were throwing excrement at Green Challenge not so long ago are now praising the power of positive thought. As an example of human willingness to twist facts to fit their current agenda, it's quite funny.

And many of the past and current critiques of Team China have also been silenced of recent. Funny how that works.

Did some research last night to refresh my memories on this GC team. I guess I discounted them in my mind (what little there is) that they did not register too much.

In the AC33 situation they were trying to wedge their way into a fight in a way that looked like they were a poodle for EB. It was noted that they not only had converstions with EB but also visited with LE. We do not know exactly what the conversation was at that time (IIRC). At that time when there was no mutual consent, and along with the court battle that was ongoing, it was wrong for them to try and issue a challenge

So, if they are playing by the rules this time, what's the big deal? Not knowing what the conversation with LE was, which maybe was a suggestion to back-off then but you would be welcome later when things are settled, how can anybody judge whether their entry is one thing or another?

Other than they were the 'mystery' entrant that had been carried along for a while.

End of story.

[Tornado-Cat]

The only decent approach for Or fans toward GC should have been: "they will ad to the drama of AC34".

At least that is my position...

However we still have a lot of unanswered questions about them.

[GauchoGreg]

Gotta love it. Ernesto actually did create a fake YC and pull all kinds of crap. GC jumped into a game that was already tainted (in AC33), heavily, and you rip those who questioned their legitimacy?

Larry accepted a challenge from an established team and YC, a team that had already been competing in the AC. Sure, it was a very friendly CoR, but still, legit. Now, the CoR situation is well established, there are plenty of teams, and so times TRULY have changed. Why would anyone now question the legitimacy of GC, when before it actually was reasonable to question their legitimacy?

Gotcha!? Well, not really.

[EaglesPDX]

Might as well face it, guys: as far as "the greatest Cup ever" is concerned,
[Lame pic of fat lady singing]

Reuters, ABC, CBS, NY Times all were singing a very different tune.

All the media attention on just two of the AC boats doing test runs says otherwise. On this topic, another challenger coming, combined with the wildly successful debut of the America's Cup sailing in San Francisco, would say the show is just getting started on what is going to be the greatest America's Cup ever. Imagine when the fast little darters are replaced by the majestic powerful AC72's.

This is the pic you were looking for.

[Xlot]

Sure, it was a very friendly CoR, but still, legit. Now, the CoR situation is well established, there are plenty of teams, and so times TRULY have changed.

Official Drink of the 34th America's Cup !!

Why would anyone now question the legitimacy of GC, when before it actually was reasonable to question their legitimacy?

[Tornado-Cat]

Gotta love it. Ernesto actually did create a fake YC and pull all kinds of crap. GC jumped into a game that was already tainted (in AC33), heavily, and you rip those who questioned their legitimacy?

Larry accepted a challenge from an established team and YC, a team that had already been competing in the AC. Sure, it was a very friendly CoR, but still, legit. Now, the CoR situation is well established, there are plenty of teams, and so times TRULY have changed. Why would anyone now question the legitimacy of GC, when before it actually was reasonable to question their legitimacy?

Gotcha!? Well, not really.

GG the legitimacy of GC has nothing to do the the CoR. The only difference between SNG and CNR was the annual race. I would even go further saying that we could have got a stonger SNG than ML was.

I did not criticize what was said on GC before, but the 180% change of mind of some posters.

The change of mind is not coming that any change we may know of GC position....Do we have any information that make them more or less legitimate now than before ?

[GauchoGreg]

Gotta love it. Ernesto actually did create a fake YC and pull all kinds of crap. GC jumped into a game that was already tainted (in AC33), heavily, and you rip those who questioned their legitimacy?

Larry accepted a challenge from an established team and YC, a team that had already been competing in the AC. Sure, it was a very friendly CoR, but still, legit. Now, the CoR situation is well established, there are plenty of teams, and so times TRULY have changed. Why would anyone now question the legitimacy of GC, when before it actually was reasonable to question their legitimacy?

Gotcha!? Well, not really.

GG the legitimacy of GC has nothing to do the the CoR. The only difference between SNG and CNR was the annual race. I would even go further saying that we could have got a stonger SNG than ML was.

I did not criticize what was said on GC before, but the 180% change of mind of some posters.

The change of mind is not coming that any change we may know of GC position....Do we have any information that make them more or less legitimate now than before ?

No, the change in mind comes from the change in situation, along with a few more year's of history for GC actually being a participant in the sailing world. Before, we had a made up YC and other shenanigans that would lead reasonable people to QUESTION the legitimacy of Johnnie-Come-Latelies like GC was at the time. Remember, even your big dug up Gotcha-post had nothing in it beyond questioning their legitimacy.

Now, as GC joins the party, what reason would anyone have to question them, at this point?

Times change.

[EaglesPDX]

Do we have any information that make them [Green Comm Racing] more or less legitimate now than before ?

Yes we do.

In 2009/10, Green Comm had never been in an America's Cup and never put a boat in the water while attempting, all in good faith as we see in retrospect, to jump in at the highest level, in a Deed of Gift battle between billionaires with years of America's Cup experience.

In 2011, Green Comm is committing up front dollars to years of racing in AC45's and AC72's based on their experiences in 2009/2010.

And Green Comm's mission statement is the best of all the challengers. They should be a very popular challenger in San Francisco which is center of high technology and pro-environmental efforts. A perfect showcase for Green Comm in every way.

Interesting to note that China and Korea are two of the leading alternative energy equipment manufacturers in the world. Green Comm's sponsorship based on showcasing their green technology business will help China and Korean entries gain sponsorship from Green Comm's competitors in China and Korea. Also, the fact that the green technology policies in China and Korea are government backed initiatives, bodes well for financing and support for both those Asian America's Cup challengers.

Green Comm's entry is a very nice synergy with existing challengers sponsor bases.

[dogwatch]

Ernesto actually did create a fake YC

Yeah and the little GGYC would not have made an AC challenge in a million years if one billionaire hadn't chosen to dig it out of a financial hole. One club is DoG-legal and the other wasn't, that's all. By all means EB's move was stupid and arrogant but it's this air of spurious moral superiority that has made many us loathe the team formerly known as BMWO.

[GauchoGreg]

Ernesto actually did create a fake YC

Yeah and the little GGYC would not have made an AC challenge in a million years if one billionaire hadn't chosen to dig it out of a financial hole. One club is DoG-legal and the other wasn't, that's all. By all means EB's move was stupid and arrogant but it's this air of spurious moral superiority that has made many us loathe the team formerly known as BMWO.

Loath away. But GGYC actually has a history and by any definition, is a YC. If they (BOR) did it by the rules, and they (OR) are trying to do good things with the cup in their possession (whether you agree with the specifics or not), rather than just twist the rules to keep the cup, then what OR and GGYC are doing is a hell of a lot different than what Ernie was doing. Still, even more relevant to this thread, the perception of GreenComm should very reasonably be different than it was back when, as has been discussed. Somehow, I don't know that it is arrogance or "spurious moral superiority" that is in play.

[EaglesPDX]

One club is DoG-legal and the other wasn't, that's all.

Correct. One club, Club Nautico di Roma, was completely legitimate and existed outside of America's Cup while the entity created by Bertarelli was a complete fiction, was not a yacht club in any sense before, during or after.

That's all.

The interesting question for Green Comm is why the switch from Circolo Vela Gargnano to Valencia YC?

[Tornado-Cat]

Green Comm's entry is a very nice Synergy with existing challengers sponsor bases.

[SW Sailor]

Wow, how much time did you waste dredging that up?

I'm not generally a fan of TC's work but this is amusing. Many of the same people who were throwing excrement at Green Challenge not so long ago are now praising the power of positive thought. As an example of human willingness to twist facts to fit their current agenda, it's quite funny.

And many of the past and current critiques of Team China have also been silenced of recent. Funny how that works.

Did some research last night to refresh my memories on this GC team. I guess I discounted them in my mind (what little there is) that they did not register too much.

In the AC33 situation they were trying to wedge their way into a fight in a way that looked like they were a poodle for EB. It was noted that they not only had converstions with EB but also visited with LE. We do not know exactly what the conversation was at that time (IIRC). At that time when there was no mutual consent, and along with the court battle that was ongoing, it was wrong for them to try and issue a challenge

So, if they are playing by the rules this time, what's the big deal? Not knowing what the conversation with LE was, which maybe was a suggestion to back-off then but you would be welcome later when things are settled, how can anybody judge whether their entry is one thing or another?

Other than they were the 'mystery' entrant that had been carried along for a while.

End of story.

Thanks for reminding me - I'd forgotten some of the silliness that actually took place.

LE files suit against SNG for having an illegitimate and non-deed compliant COR - CNEV.

EB refuses BMWO's multiple offers of a MC campaign with a AC32 like protocol, and in the middle of the legal battle up pops a team that offers to challenge BMWO and wants to jump in the middle of something they have no part in. That was par for the course at that time, along with all the other nonsense EB tried to pull.

Now I know why I forgot - this was a speed bump in the overall scheme of things back then.

And that's what this discussion is about ? I forgot how stupid things can get here with TC.

[dogwatch]

rather than just twist the rules to keep the cup

I've little interest in revisiting the shenanigans around AC33 and none at all in defending the actions of EB. However CNEV wasn't created to "twist the rules to keep the cup". It was created to deal with the issue of regionalism in Spain and Spanish yacht clubs which use of an existing club would have entailed, an issue that is not hard to grasp to anyone with a little understanding of Spanish history.

GGYC appears to be a pleasant dining facility that occasionally runs some racing. I'm not knocking it but there is absolutely no comparison to the "senior" clubs that have traditionally been involved and it's entirely clear that its role in the AC came about entirely because LE was unable to come to terms with the SF club that would otherwise have made a traditional challenger. I'm not actually a big fan of tradition, nor of snooty yacht clubs, and I've no problem at all with GGYC as a challenger/defender. It is simply the venom that is directed at CNEV, and hence at Spanish sailing for whose convenience it was created, that is nauseating when BMWO did almost exactly the same thing in their choice of club, with the exception of selecting a club that was DoG-legal.

[GauchoGreg]

rather than just twist the rules to keep the cup

I've little interest in revisiting the shenanigans around AC33 and none at all in defending the actions of EB. However CNEV wasn't created to "twist the rules to keep the cup". It was created to deal with the issue of regionalism in Spain and Spanish yacht clubs which use of an existing club would have entailed, an issue that is not hard to grasp to anyone with a little understanding of Spanish history.

GGYC appears to be a pleasant dining facility that occasionally runs some racing. I'm not knocking it but there is absolutely no comparison to the "senior" clubs that have traditionally been involved and it's entirely clear that its role in the AC came about entirely because LE was unable to come to terms with the SF club that would otherwise have made a traditional challenger. I'm not actually a big fan of tradition, nor of snooty yacht clubs, and I've no problem at all with GGYC as a challenger/defender. It is simply the venom that is directed at CNEV, and hence at Spanish sailing for whose convenience it was created, that is nauseating when BMWO did almost exactly the same thing in their choice of club, with the exception of selecting a club that was DoG-legal.

Fact of the matter, no yacht club does anything more than serve as a placeholder for an America's Cup team and lend it legitimacy. It has been a LONG LONG time since any YC actually did anything more. Since the GGYC was actually a real, legitimate YC prior to any interest from Ellison, it is entirely different than a fictitious YC created by Ernie. Now, CNEV was but one element of Ernie trying to fix AC33. Conversely, the current organizers are actually bending over backwards to help legitimate teams compete this go-around. Some may not like the vision of AC34, but it is hardly an effort by OR to flex their muscle only to retain the cup. Had that been the aim, DogZilla would be ready to take on any comers.

[SW Sailor]

rather than just twist the rules to keep the cup

I've little interest in revisiting the shenanigans around AC33 and none at all in defending the actions of EB. However CNEV wasn't created to "twist the rules to keep the cup". It was created to deal with the issue of regionalism in Spain and Spanish yacht clubs which use of an existing club would have entailed, an issue that is not hard to grasp to anyone with a little understanding of Spanish history.

GGYC appears to be a pleasant dining facility that occasionally runs some racing. I'm not knocking it but there is absolutely no comparison to the "senior" clubs that have traditionally been involved and it's entirely clear that its role in the AC came about entirely because LE was unable to come to terms with the SF club that would otherwise have made a traditional challenger. I'm not actually a big fan of tradition, nor of snooty yacht clubs, and I've no problem at all with GGYC as a challenger/defender. It is simply the venom that is directed at CNEV, and hence at Spanish sailing for whose convenience it was created, that is nauseating when BMWO did almost exactly the same thing in their choice of club, with the exception of selecting a club that was DoG-legal.

GGYC has a bit more history than CNEV, and regardless of why they were created ~immediately before~ EB won AC32, the result was the worst protocol in the history of the AC, which was announced a few days later. A pure railroad scheme with EB's fingerprints all over it.

Regarding GGYC being a "pleasant dining facility that occasionally runs some racing" I beg to differ.

GGYC was established 72 years ago, not days prior to LE winning the Cup.

The qualifying regatta, The Manuel Fagundes Seaweed Soup Regatta has been held for 40 years. A little different that a fleet of Optis out sailing and the massive debate over the definition of the word "having".

I find it amusing that the "only difference" is that GGYC is a deed complaint club. Don't think so. This is just a "minor technicality" that changed the course of the AC.