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2011 Northern Century


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#1 Mistaken

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:48 PM

For all you die-hard double hand sailors out there, the 2011 running of the Northern Century is now a little more than 60 days away. As you all know, this is not a race for wimps -- there is no party stop in the middle, just you and the sea for one or more days with numerous navigational choices!

The Notice of Race (NOR) is nearly ready to go, so stay tuned to the event website http://www.northerncentury.org/ for more information and other news. This year we are planning on three different races -- double-handed mono-hull; fully-crewed mono-hull, and double-handed multi-hull. In addition, if we can get 5 or more identically rated boats in a particular race we will create an overlay division with separate awards.

One really cool new development for this year is that we will be using the highly regarded Swiftsure race tracking system so that your friends and family can keep track of your progress (or lack thereof).

Note that the event organizers are GIVING free entrance to the top 3 overall finishers in Race to the Straits; the 1st place finishers in each course of Southern Straits and Swiftsure; plus the 1st place finishers in each division of the Van Isle 360. It is shaping up to be a great event that you will not want to miss...

#2 MatsMats Sailor

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 02:25 PM

what about first place division winners from swiftsure?

ReignMaker will be there regardless....

#3 Mistaken

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 02:51 PM

That would add up to a lot of boats as there are a lot of divisions in each Swiftsure race -- the RC had to draw the line somewhere. Besides, what other event gives free entrance to winners of other regattas?

#4 Mistaken

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:21 PM

The 2011 Northern Century Notice of Race has now been posted. You can get your copy here...

www.northerncentury.org

Any questions - fire away....

#5 Mistaken

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 01:47 PM

For all you anxious sailors out there wanting to register for this season's most challenging double-handed event, you need not wait any longer. At long last on-line registration is now open --

NORTHERN CENTURY WEB SITE

PS - registration is $50.00 per boat by August 15, $75.00 thereafter. With this you get race entry, a free meal for you and your crew Friday evening, plus the use of a SPOT transceiver for the event. We also have some cool event shirts for $20.00 each (you can order these on-line during registration).

#6 Garufa

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 03:20 AM

And if anyone crazy enough to attempt this race, PITCH will welcome you with open arms the following weekend and make you remember why you like to race sailboats in regattas!

#7 Mistaken

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:44 AM

Based on the response thus far it looks like we will have over 40 boats this year, plus you can stay for PITCH as mentioned...

#8 SSM

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 05:42 AM

And if anyone crazy enough to attempt this race, PITCH will welcome you with open arms the following weekend and make you remember why you like to race sailboats in regattas!


What kind of availability for a week long layover in Bellingham? Natural High is likely coming from Squamish (need to confirm my partner in crime) and Pitch is a maybe.Squamish is too far to go home and come back.

#9 CharlieCobra

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 02:22 PM

Nice to see the growth in this race since the first one I did with Oh Joy... Someday, we'll be back....

#10 alymatt

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:11 PM


And if anyone crazy enough to attempt this race, PITCH will welcome you with open arms the following weekend and make you remember why you like to race sailboats in regattas!


What kind of availability for a week long layover in Bellingham? Natural High is likely coming from Squamish (need to confirm my partner in crime) and Pitch is a maybe.Squamish is too far to go home and come back.



Point Roberts is also an option to park for a week..........depending on how long you are there shouldn't be a problem getting a spot, oh and there will a few of us going back down to Pitch as well.

#11 alymatt

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:12 PM

Based on the response thus far it looks like we will have over 40 boats this year, plus you can stay for PITCH as mentioned...



looks like Cinco will be back this year and most likely in the DH division.

From our club we should have 3 boats showing up, - J 30 - J 29 - C&C 110, so far that I know of!

#12 Mistaken

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 09:25 PM

For those that are interested -- Cap Sante marina has a new hoist for boats up to 27' and 3000#. The SC27 fleet uses it on a regular basis and it may be of interest to those bringing boats in for this event by trailer...

#13 MatsMats Sailor

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:30 AM

ReignMaker has signed up.

Sadly, one of our crew members from last year passed away last week (Dan Baker from Bremerton Yacht Club "Duke"... Catalina 36)

So this race will mean a lot to us..

http://www.yodaworks...7850_RpGaV-A-LB

#14 interactive

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 06:27 AM

ReignMaker has signed up.

Sadly, one of our crew members from last year passed away last week (Dan Baker from Bremerton Yacht Club "Duke"... Catalina 36)

So this race will mean a lot to us..

http://www.yodaworks...7850_RpGaV-A-LB



looks nice source.

#15 Ballard Sailor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:37 PM

maybe this will help out...

#16 Mistaken

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 06:39 PM

Nice write up plus great video. Between now and Aug 15 registration fees are $50/boat -- thereafter it increases to $75/boat. For this you get your entry fees, plus dinner for you & your crew before the race and SPOT transceiver rental. Looks like a great race and a pretty good deal to me...

#17 Mistaken

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:29 PM

Several more registrations this weekend -- now up to 11 boats registered with many more to come...

#18 Garufa

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:09 AM

Port of Bellingham has transient moorage...email me direct with your boat data and I will ask around about a private week sublease

#19 Mistaken

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:05 PM

The word is that there are already fifteen (15) boats registered for the 2011 Northern Century, including some well known local favorites such as Radiant Heat, Skookumchuck, Grafix, Tantivy, ReignMaker and Madrona. A number of these boats were battling it out during the 2011 Van Isle 360, so perhaps this is turning into a double-handed grudge match in order to even the score...



The multi-fleet is looking light at present -- I always thought they were pretty fast, but I guess not when it comes to registration...

#20 dangerzone777

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:18 PM

I have not been able to get any interest in the multihull fleet. I guess they are all worn out after Van Isle and Cow Bay.

#21 nige

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 10:40 PM

I have not been able to get any interest in the multihull fleet. I guess they are all worn out after Van Isle and Cow Bay.


Someone just brought this up to me and am seeing if I can get the time away - not sure now though as there are no other multi's!

(I have an F-32R).

Will see if I can prod some others.

#22 acj

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 07:20 PM

Idefix is signed up. Need a little bit of racing to liven up a week of cruising the islands, or else I'll be bored stiff.

#23 dangerzone777

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:02 AM


I have not been able to get any interest in the multihull fleet. I guess they are all worn out after Van Isle and Cow Bay.


Someone just brought this up to me and am seeing if I can get the time away - not sure now though as there are no other multi's!

(I have an F-32R).

Will see if I can prod some others.


If some multi's would have expresssed interest two weeks ago I would be there but i have already commiteed to something else since I got no respond from the NW Multihll list. Sounds like a great race.

#24 Mistaken

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:54 PM

24 boats registered as of Thursday night -- looks like there will be two divisions in the fully-crewed & double-handed mono-hull races. Still only one multi-hull entered -- there is still time...

#25 nige

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:56 PM

24 boats registered as of Thursday night -- looks like there will be two divisions in the fully-crewed & double-handed mono-hull races. Still only one multi-hull entered -- there is still time...


Any way if there was another multi entered that we could just race as one double handed division rather than just have 2 boats in the class?

Its looking more likely for me too - should know in a couple of days.

#26 Mistaken

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:07 PM

This sounds reasonable -- let me bring it up with the management. The ideal of course would be to have a bunch of multi-hulls, but short of that what you suggest sounds fine. If they decide to do this it will probably be at the last minute, so in the meantime do what you can to get as many multi-hulls to sign up...

As an FYI, registration increases to $75 after August 15, so everyone has a few more days...

#27 Hayden C30

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 02:13 PM

In the Notice of Race, section 6 – Fees, it states “$50.00if received by August 15, 2011; $75.00 thereafter”. Does this mean that the RO needs to have the registration and checkin hand by the 15th or that they need to bepost-marked by the 15th. (Inother words, do I need to drive to Anacortes on Monday and find someone to givea check too?)





#28 sloansailing

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 03:44 PM

In the Notice of Race, section 6 – Fees, it states “$50.00if received by August 15, 2011; $75.00 thereafter”. Does this mean that the RO needs to have the registration and checkin hand by the 15th or that they need to bepost-marked by the 15th. (Inother words, do I need to drive to Anacortes on Monday and find someone to givea check too?)



You can register online... https://ayc.membercl...cid=form_103349

Worth it to drive to Anacortes to save $25? Maybe from Mount Vernon! :D

#29 Hayden C30

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 08:10 PM

Closer still (Oak Harbor) Probably need to go to WM anyway. I will get the online resistration out today. Thanks.

#30 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:49 AM

29 boats presently registered with two multi-hulls. On-line registration we be open until the last minute, but the registration fee goes up to $75 (from $50) after August 15. Looks like we should easily exceed the number of boats registered last year...

2011 N100 Race Registration List - as of August 14, 2011


#31 nige

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:03 AM

with two multi-hulls


Three as of 5 mins ago - looking forward to it.

#32 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:05 AM

Nice -- we will have to update the race registration list. Unfortunately this is a manual process -- maybe next year we can automate this...

#33 silvergirl

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:09 AM

If we haven't already, let's set POSTMARK (and email?) registration dates. This would save the planet Earth, our home, a lot of oil, gasoline, and exhaust fume pollution. :) And time and stress on the part of us sailors. :)


In the Notice of Race, section 6 – Fees, it states "$50.00if received by August 15, 2011; $75.00 thereafter". Does this mean that the RO needs to have the registration and checkin hand by the 15th or that they need to bepost-marked by the 15th. (Inother words, do I need to drive to Anacortes on Monday and find someone to givea check too?)






#34 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:18 AM

There seems to be a little confusion -- the only official way to register for the N100 is online, which you should be able to do if you are hanging out in this forum!

If you absolutely have an aversion to on-line registration, e-mail the required information into the race organizer and bring your check to the race registration. If you e-mail your information in before the 16th your entry fee will be $50, thereafter $75 (unless of course if you are one of the lucky qualifying boats that get free entry)...

#35 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:24 AM

Race registration list has been updated -- 3 multi-hulls with a total of 30 boats...

#36 Hayden C30

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:26 AM

Does anyone know what the event shirts look like and if they can be ordered after a boat is registered?

#37 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:47 AM

The event shirts are Henley neck with custom graphics on the front and back. The graphics will be posted tomorrow.

Ideally everyone would order shirts at the time of registration, but we recognize this isn't always possible. Some additional shirts will be available at race registration for purchase. If your size isn't available at registration you will be able to order them and they will be mailed to you.

#38 Ballard Sailor

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:53 AM

I guess we are bringing the Vanadis, but hey, I write and post a promo on a different site and there is no support there? Guess I shouldn't have written that primer....

#39 Hayden C30

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 06:32 AM

Are the results from previos years available on-line?

#40 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:10 PM

Previous years race results (2009 and 2010) are available here - just flip back through the years and look for the N100...

N100 Race Results

#41 sloansailing

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:17 PM

I guess we are bringing the Vanadis, but hey, I write and post a promo on a different site and there is no support there? Guess I shouldn't have written that primer....


not NO support, I tried to help!

#42 sloansailing

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:22 PM

Where are Manana and White Cloud?

#43 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:22 PM

I guess we are bringing the Vanadis, but hey, I write and post a promo on a different site and there is no support there? Guess I shouldn't have written that primer....



Everyone appreciates the promo on the "other site" - we will put a link on the AYC website to the PD forum and perhaps this would increase traffic. From my perspective the articles on PD are much more supportive of PNW sailing than SA and I think we should support them in this...

Point well taken!



#44 Ballard Sailor

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:23 PM

not NO support, I tried to help!


no worries, just talkin smak. Still hoping we can come, if we don't race we'll still be up there cruising so it'll be fun either way.

#45 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:27 PM

31 boats registered as of a few minutes ago -- the race registration list has been updated to reflect this, plus links added to the PD forum...

#46 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:11 PM

32 boats now registered including 3 multi-hulls, we are now even with last year. If this keeps up we should easily break 40 boats!

#47 Hayden C30

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:47 PM

For the first timers, what is the typical august wind directionand strengths that we can expect for each leg. Most of my time in that area has been inside the San Juan’s and in thereit seems to be none to nil.



#48 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 06:22 PM

Where are Manana and White Cloud?


If you are talking about Trev on Manana he's got a spanking new baby last week. I don't think he will make it. For the race that is.

#49 Hayden C30

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:33 PM

For those unfamiliar with Anacortes, is there a marina mapthat shows where we should tie up when we come in Friday afternoon?



#50 alymatt

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:51 PM

[quote name='Hayden C30' timestamp='1313447591' post='3368877']
For those unfamiliar with Anacortes, is there a marina mapthat shows where we should tie up when we come in Friday afternoon?


Go to the Anacortes yacht club website and I am sure there is a Cap Stante Marina layout as wellr as contact info to the marina itself to radio or call in prior to your arrival. Just tell them you are participating in the N 100 and they will place you accordingly.

As for prevailing winds, it will be extremely light at times and most likely a little breezy at times.......and expect to sail well into Saturday night!

I am sure Mistaken will give everyone a very detailed weather briefing at the skippers meeting as well.

CdM

#51 Mistaken

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:58 PM

For the first timers, what is the typical august wind directionand strengths that we can expect for each leg. Most of my time in that area has been inside the San Juan's and in thereit seems to be none to nil.



You can expect a variety of winds in this race (which is what makes it interesting) -- the typical patterns are a NW wind down the Strait of Georgia and a Westerly down the Strait of Juan De Fuca. These two forces converge and can result in areas with light winds (typically in Boundary and Haro Straits). At the start you typically get a light westerly, then you move through a transition zone east of Guemes (assuming you go this way), followed by a NW wind near Sinclair to Pt. Roberts and then down to Boundary Pass. If the NW wind is strong you can typically ride it to Turn Point where you will have hunt for the westerly wrapping around Discovery Island. By the time you get half way to Hein Bank you should have a full-on westerly which will lift up Rosario Strait and lighten as you approach the finish. The strength of the winds in the Strait of Georgia and Juan De Fuca typically increase later in the day at that time of year.

The net-net is that you should expect a little of everything, but you will likely have significantly more wind than you typically get when you sail inside the San Juans. This coupled with the multiple navigational choices you have make this a very interesting and challenging race...

#52 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:17 AM

Here is a preliminary copy of the new t-shirt design (back) -- we are planning a few changes to make things a little clearer. The henley-neck shirts this year a blue in color and should be a step up from previous years...

Attached Files



#53 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:19 AM

Thanks for the overview. I see that Stuart does not need to be left to port. Is that different than in past years? That opens up some interesting strategic decisions given the currents in that area.



#54 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:41 AM

This is actually an interesting point -- in previous years you were required to keep Stuart to port; but for this year we are seriously considering removing this requirement. In the past several boats have kept Stuart to port but sailed down San Juan channel and through Cattle Pass. While this hasn't been a winning move in the past, it easily could be in the right circumstances...

What does everyone think about this -- make Turn Point a mark of the course or not?



#55 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:07 AM

Here is how it is worded in the Notice of Race.

"2. RACE DESCRIPTION The course starts in Fidalgo Bay and heads north to PointRoberts, then south any way you choose to Hein Bank, followed by a return toAnacortes with a finish off Shannon Point."

According to this you could round the buoy at Point Robertsthen sail down Rosario and out to Hein Bank then back up Rosario to thefinish.

Lots of possibilities.



#56 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:22 AM



In looking at the results from last year I noticed somethinginteresting. Only three of the hares infleet 1 finished while 6 of the tortoises in fleet 2 finished. Strange to see a boat with a PHRF of 222finish a race when 6 boats with a ratings under 100 don’t. I’m just say’n.



Bring it on! ;)




#57 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:51 AM

Here is how it is worded in the Notice of Race.

"2. RACE DESCRIPTION The course starts in Fidalgo Bay and heads north to PointRoberts, then south any way you choose to Hein Bank, followed by a return toAnacortes with a finish off Shannon Point."

According to this you could round the buoy at Point Robertsthen sail down Rosario and out to Hein Bank then back up Rosario to thefinish.

Lots of possibilities.



You are quite right -- this is the way the NOR is worded, and in talking with the PRO Turn Point is not an "official" mark of the course, even though most people will likely choose to take this route!

#58 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:58 AM



In looking at the results from last year I noticed somethinginteresting. Only three of the hares infleet 1 finished while 6 of the tortoises in fleet 2 finished. Strange to see a boat with a PHRF of 222finish a race when 6 boats with a ratings under 100 don't. I'm just say'n.



Bring it on! ;)





Interesting observation -- the 2010 running of the N100 was quite interesting. The wind shut off shortly after the start with a building ebb current. Most boats couldn't make it between Saddlebag and Huckleberry, instead drifting around for hours until the wind built. Some went east of Saddlebag but only a few made it out, the rest spent the night on the hard. Others gave up waiting and tried Guemes Channel (which worked well) until they hit the ebb down Rosario Strait and ended up near Hein Bank instead of Point Roberts where they were heading.

The boats that waited out the ebb were able to make it up to Point Roberts where they were greeted by a nice NW blow -- for various reasons others decided to drop out at this point. In the end it turned out to be a great race with a LOT of critical decisions, with the final rewards going to the skillful AND patient...

Like you say - bring it on!

PS - attached is a copy of our track trying to get through between Saddlebag and Huckleberry, then later on we had a near miss with Vendovi while watching Tantivy safely anchored near Sinclair!

Attached Files



#59 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:13 AM

That is an experience I am familiar with. I have had to anchor at Possession Point on a couple of occasions to avoid docking at Shilshole during the Round Whidbey Race. I hope to keep the anchor on deck!



#60 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:04 AM

As of 10:00pm tonight we have 34 boats registered -- we are ahead of last year and stand a good chance to break 40 registered boats!

#61 sloansailing

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:18 PM

Here is how it is worded in the Notice of Race.

"2. RACE DESCRIPTION The course starts in Fidalgo Bay and heads north to PointRoberts, then south any way you choose to Hein Bank, followed by a return toAnacortes with a finish off Shannon Point."

According to this you could round the buoy at Point Robertsthen sail down Rosario and out to Hein Bank then back up Rosario to thefinish.

Lots of possibilities.


While the race description on the website reads:

RACE DESCRIPTION
A picture depicting the overall course is here. Note that you are not required to keep Stuart Island to port as depicted on the overall course chartlet. On a leg-by-leg basis the race is as follows - you can click on each leg and review a small chartlet describing each point.
POINT MARK DESCRIPTION
Start Between Red #2 & Refinery Pier (Fidalgo Bay)
Mark #1 Point Roberts - Red #4 Leave to Port
Mark #2 Hein Bank - Green #1 Leave to Port
Finish Between G3 and R4 (west entrance of Guemes Channel)

http://www.anacortesyachtclub.com/racing/northern-century/


Depending on the conditions sailing back south from Pt Bob to Rosario and out to Hein Bank could easily be a faster route. Considering that Turn Point has always been a mark of the course, and in fact the 100 mile distance is based on this course (other routes could prove shorter) IMO Turn Point should be a mark of the course. Thoughts?

#62 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:42 PM

I took a quick look at the distances involved with the various routes (using Expedition) and here is what I came up with:

Regular route (with Turn Point) = 91.88 nm
Inside route (President Channel, San Juan Channel, Cattle Pass) = 88.5 nm
Rosario Strait route to Hein Bank = 95.48 nm

From a scoring perspective the race is scored TOD (time on distance) at a lengh of 100 nm, thereby slightly biasing the race in favor of the slower boats as compared to an event like Round the County which scores the race based on the actual shortest distance. However, given all the tacking/jibing involved I expect every boat will sail considerably more than 100 nm - hence the event name >>> N100

Also, here is the FINAL shirt design in case anyone is interested...

Attached Files



#63 alymatt

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 08:28 PM

I took a quick look at the distances involved with the various routes (using Expedition) and here is what I came up with:

Regular route (with Turn Point) = 91.88 nm
Inside route (President Channel, San Juan Channel, Cattle Pass) = 88.5 nm
Rosario Strait route to Hein Bank = 95.48 nm

From a scoring perspective the race is scored TOD (time on distance) at a lengh of 100 nm, thereby slightly biasing the race in favor of the slower boats as compared to an event like Round the County which scores the race based on the actual shortest distance. However, given all the tacking/jibing involved I expect every boat will sail considerably more than 100 nm - hence the event name >>> N100

Also, here is the FINAL shirt design in case anyone is interested...



WOW, would never have considered going up Rosario.......great something else to worry about now:)

And for what its worth, I like Turn Point as a dedicated turning mark..........very challenging getting by there for sure, with HUGE gains and loss to be had in the biggest transition zone!

#64 Asymptote

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:05 PM


I took a quick look at the distances involved with the various routes (using Expedition) and here is what I came up with:

Regular route (with Turn Point) = 91.88 nm
Inside route (President Channel, San Juan Channel, Cattle Pass) = 88.5 nm
Rosario Strait route to Hein Bank = 95.48 nm

From a scoring perspective the race is scored TOD (time on distance) at a lengh of 100 nm, thereby slightly biasing the race in favor of the slower boats as compared to an event like Round the County which scores the race based on the actual shortest distance. However, given all the tacking/jibing involved I expect every boat will sail considerably more than 100 nm - hence the event name >>> N100

Also, here is the FINAL shirt design in case anyone is interested...



WOW, would never have considered going up Rosario.......great something else to worry about now:)

And for what its worth, I like Turn Point as a dedicated turning mark..........very challenging getting by there for sure, with HUGE gains and loss to be had in the biggest transition zone!


I like adding Turn Point as well, even though we left 3.5 hours there in 2009. Got caught in a bit of current swirl and windless hole, waited 2 hours for the next boat to show up and another 1.5 hours to rejoin the parade. I like keeping boats together on the course, rather than multiple course choices involving much luck.

The 3 mile differential between that and the Cattle Pass route seems to be insignificant, with huge risks at Cattle Pass. Rosario could be a very interesting option in the right conditions, but not really in the spirit of the event - which really is lapping the Islands.

White Cloud is still on the fence...but moving toward 75-25.

#65 Asymptote

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:09 PM



In looking at the results from last year I noticed somethinginteresting. Only three of the hares infleet 1 finished while 6 of the tortoises in fleet 2 finished. Strange to see a boat with a PHRF of 222finish a race when 6 boats with a ratings under 100 don't. I'm just say'n.



Bring it on! ;)





As one of those "hares", we had to motor off the muck not too many miles from the start. We actually pondered going back and re-starting after killing the engine and waiting 5 minutes. But we weren't sure that would be strictly legal, and in the end the bright lights of Anacortes lured us back to the marina.

#66 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:59 PM

You didn't want to lay on your side and wait it out? There was a boat in the Round Whidbey Race a few years ago that did that. I understand they had a nice game of football around the boat while they were waiting. :o

#67 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:33 PM

I am wondering if the original intent of not having Turn Point as a mark was to allow going through Speiding Channel instead. if so, the SI's could read "Point Roberts to Hein Bank by means of Haro Strait."

#68 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:44 PM

The original intent of Turn Point being a mark of the course was to circumnavigate the islands and to keep the boats somewhat together. Unless the conditions are highly unusual this is also going to be the typical route -- however, even if Turn Point was a mark you could still go down Speiden Channel and out Cattle Pass (which several have unsuccessfully tried).

It sounds like the general opinion is to leave Turn Point as a mark of the course -- we will let the discussion proceed for a few more days and then I will get together with the PRO and have him make a decision...

One other item of consideration is about the use of motors - some events don't let you use them at all; others let you use them to provide assistance and avoid commercial traffic; and yet others allow you to use them to avoid rocks, etc. Any thoughts on this?

Also, autopilots are allowed in the double-handed events...

#69 nige

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:48 PM

The original intent of Turn Point being a mark of the course was to circumnavigate the islands and to keep the boats somewhat together. Unless the conditions are highly unusual this is also going to be the typical route -- however, even if Turn Point was a mark you could still go down Speiden Channel and out Cattle Pass (which several have unsuccessfully tried).

It sounds like the general opinion is to leave Turn Point as a mark of the course -- we will let the discussion proceed for a few more days and then I will get together with the PRO and have him make a decision...

One other item of consideration is about the use of motors - some events don't let you use them at all; others let you use them to provide assistance and avoid commercial traffic; and yet others allow you to use them to avoid rocks, etc. Any thoughts on this?

Also, autopilots are allowed in the double-handed events...


Good to know about the auto pilot.

I would have thought providing assistance was the only reasonable use of a motor without retiring?

(Maybe I am saying that without enough experience of sitting in no wind not being able to get out of a shipping lane ;)

#70 alymatt

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:57 PM

The original intent of Turn Point being a mark of the course was to circumnavigate the islands and to keep the boats somewhat together. Unless the conditions are highly unusual this is also going to be the typical route -- however, even if Turn Point was a mark you could still go down Speiden Channel and out Cattle Pass (which several have unsuccessfully tried).

It sounds like the general opinion is to leave Turn Point as a mark of the course -- we will let the discussion proceed for a few more days and then I will get together with the PRO and have him make a decision...

One other item of consideration is about the use of motors - some events don't let you use them at all; others let you use them to provide assistance and avoid commercial traffic; and yet others allow you to use them to avoid rocks, etc. Any thoughts on this?
Also, autopilots are allowed in the double-handed event


The engine one is a tough one......on one hand it keeps competitors from maybe taking a chance they may not have taken.........and the last thing you want IMO is to make more work for the RC and the organizers if we do cause any problems with commercial traffic, but you don't want guys waiting so long to get to safety and then have a real problem. That said what happened to Brown Cloud last year would really suck!

I would like to see a scoring penalty be imposed as opposed to just being tossed out if you use your engine!

#71 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:01 PM

Here is what we use on the Round Whidbey Race for use of engines. One of the biggest challenges for the race committee on a distance race that involves the VTS is staying out of trouble with the Coast Guard and VTS control. We had been informed that we could loose our permit if we caused problems for commercial shipping so we added this provision. we didn't want to have a skipper sit in harms way and cause an incident for fear of DSQ.


13. USE OF ENGINE

A yacht in position where it may impede commercial traffic, must exit from the “Danger Area”
immediately, under power if necessary. If power is used, it must be reported to the Race Committee at
the finish line. Also, a written report must be made on a protest form, showing the location, time,
duration of power use speed, direction of exit and that the competitive position of the yacht was not
improved. If the last item cannot be demonstrated adequately, a time penalty may be imposed."


You basically protest yourself and defend your actions to show that you did not better your position.




#72 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:08 PM

For use of engine, i always carry a digital camera and I figured that if i ever needed to use the engine to get out of the way of one of shipping I would take a picture of my crumb trail showing my course (which would be 90 degrees or more to line of travel. Now that we are using the tracking system that can be referred to as documentation of course of action. Record start and shutdown time and verify travel duration distance and speed on track.

#73 Hayden C30

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:11 PM

the number one rule should be don't do this, EVER!!




#74 Mistaken

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:14 PM

The problem with the Round Whidbey definition is that the use of an engine is not allowed to provide assistance - it would seem that this should be allowed. Interestingly, in the Round the County SI's motors are also allowed to move a boat off a grounding or to move the boat away from a situation that would result in a grounding.

It would seem to me that the "purest" answer is that if you have to use your engine for anything other than providing assistance you should retire...

#75 Asymptote

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:38 PM

The problem with the Round Whidbey definition is that the use of an engine is not allowed to provide assistance - it would seem that this should be allowed. Interestingly, in the Round the County SI's motors are also allowed to move a boat off a grounding or to move the boat away from a situation that would result in a grounding.

It would seem to me that the "purest" answer is that if you have to use your engine for anything other than providing assistance you should retire...


You don't need anything in the SI's to provide for motoring to render assistance. Its the very first rule in the RRS. You can always request redress after rendering assistance, and PC's are uniformly biased toward granting it. Simply document the time and location you began "rendering", and the time and location you stopped "rendering and resumed racing. Returning close to the starting point before you stop your "rendering" clock helps the PC sort it all out.

I've requested redress on Swiftsure (twice), Winter Vashon (twice), Van Isle 360, St. Fancy's Big Boat Series, national championships here and in the Bay Area, and a couple of other times. We've always received exactly what we've asked for, with support from the near by competitors, and the MOB/boat we assisted. One time we were granted more than we asked for, based on a competitor's testimony, and we had to talk ourselves out of a few minutes. (It was a mis-hearing of "eleven" for "seven" on the VHF.)

Motoring rules like the Round-Whidbey may be a little too generous for fully crewed boats, but appropriate for double-handers. In any case, motoring perpendicular to the VTS away from commercial traffic in a dead calm has to be at least an action that might not disqualify a boat.

#76 Hayden C30

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 02:43 AM

Given the route that we travel you can easily have a situation where you are becalmed in the convergence at Turn Point with the current carrying you into the shipping lane and a container ship coming around the corner. Do you sit there and hope that he goes around you or get out of his way.

I was the WINSA Commodore when the use of engine rule was first written. The previous year we'd had an incident where a boat that was not even a part of our race crossed Admiralty Inlet in front of a very large container ship. He got five horns and a lot of unpleasantness on the vhf from the ship's bridge. The pass was close but not frightening. The ship'scaptain complained to VTS control that "one of those damn racers had cut in front of him or something to that affect. Fortunately one of our racers took a picture of the boat in question showng that it was not one of ours. (A ketch with dinghy outbehind, laundry on the lifelines, etc.) At our permit application the next year I was told that we needed to do everything possible to assure that this type of situation didn't happen again or our permit might not be renewed for future races.



The reason we added the rule wasn't so that racers wouldn't get DSQ'd. it was so they wouldn't take unnecessary changes because they were afraid that they would be DSQ'd. We also added a full page of rules pertaining to the VTS. The modifications made obstructing commercial traffic a breach of the SI's that could be protested by a competitor. This was deemed to be due diligence in our responsibility as a race committee to do all we could to assure that the traffic lanes would be safe. We also make all skippers sign a statement that they are aware of the VTS rules and will abide by them. As I was told by the permit officer at the Coast Guard, this demonstrated that we, as the race committee had done everything in our power to keep the course safe and would go far in obtaining a permit if a major problem occurred.

We did not address the use of the motor for rendering assistance in the SI's because as Asymptote stated, it is already in the RRS.



#77 Mistaken

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:02 PM

This is all great feedback -- we have several options:

1 - engines only for rendering assistance
2 - engines to render assistance & to avoid commercial traffic
3 - engines to render assistance, avoid commercial traffic & unground
4 - engines to render assistance, avoid commercial traffic, unground & avoid grounding

I think I can get the PRO to go with option #2 -- what does everyone think?

#78 sloansailing

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:03 PM

Use of engine rule is easy to deal with guys. If a competitor feels he/she needs to use it to keep his/her vessel safe, out of the way of commercial traffic, or to assist another vessel, then record the amount of time you use it, your general heading, and don't use it to progress down the race course. Report it to the RC, and ask for redress. No need to make it more complicated.

#79 sloansailing

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:08 PM

And no competitors should not be allowed to avoid grounding or remove his/her vessel from grounding with the engine and keep racing.

#80 alymatt

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:41 PM

And no competitors should not be allowed to avoid grounding or remove his/her vessel from grounding with the engine and keep racing.


Not sure I understand your doube negative:P

Maybe after another cup of coffee it will make more sense........

#81 Errant

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:43 PM

I hear "Joss" is also racing...

#82 Hayden C30

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:49 PM

I think that given the challenges of staying out of trouble with the CG, #2 would be minimum for prudent race management.

#3 could be used to strategic advantage. Ghosting along the shore can yield great benefits at night with a light band of shore breeze that extends only a few hundred feet from shore. If you can use your motor if you cut it too close, no worries as long as the bottom is soft. "We can move it in as close as we want, we will just motor off" isn't really in the spirit of racing.

#4 I think the only possible allowable use of engine in a grounding situation would be for limited locations where the safety of the vessel or crew is at jeopardy, i.e., rendering assistance to self from imminent peril. What I am talking about is no apparent wind, no steerage, strong current and being swept into rocks with no possibility of anchoring to avoid the rocks. Drifting into sand or mud in one thing. Bad luck, sit there and wait it out (you should have set an anchor before you got there). Being driven onto rocky point at speeds that do not allow for fending off with boat hooks etc. is quite a different matter. This option would need to be very limited for the time the engine was allowed,(1 minute max?) and incur a significant automatic time penalty (1 hour min?). There are some places out here where going bump in the night would be a very bad thing.

We are required by PIYA Cat II Section 3.0 line 3.3 and 3.4 to carry two anchors at the ready. Anchoring should always be the first choice. The problem is that there are some points around that you would hit the hard long before your anchor ever found the bottom.



Is the intent to run a fun safe race? In that spirit, do you want to DSQ a boat that fires up the engine for 1 minute after 90 miles of racing just because the wind has crapped out and she is heading into Bird Rocks in a 2 knot current. The burden to show imminent peril would be on the skipper. The test of peril is "if you did not have an engine, would you be making a Mayday call? Safety first.



Most rocky points are not a problem. Hydrodynamic forces will take you around a point. It might scare you to death but the water goes around the rock not through it. ;>) The main use of the rule would be rock pinnacle fields like Bird Rocks.



#83 Mistaken

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:52 PM

I hear "Joss" is also racing...


It would be EXCELLENT to have Joss along -- this would be a perfect race for her!

#84 rawthul

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:35 PM

Catching up with this thread, wanted to chime in -

I agree that Turn Point should be kept as a mark on the course, much for the same reasons as earlier posts have suggested.

On motor use, option #2 sounds ideal for this event.

I talked w/ Jack S yesterday, he is indeed looking for crew to sail Joss in N100...

Will be there at the back of the pack in the Islander 30...

#85 alymatt

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:58 PM

Catching up with this thread, wanted to chime in -

I agree that Turn Point should be kept as a mark on the course, much for the same reasons as earlier posts have suggested.

On motor use, option #2 sounds ideal for this event.

I talked w/ Jack S yesterday, he is indeed looking for crew to sail Joss in N100...

Will be there at the back of the pack in the Islander 30...


he only needs to find 1 friend!

#86 Mistaken

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 10:18 PM

I spoke with the PRO and here is where things are leaning --

USE OF MOTOR
I think we will likely go with option #2 -- you can use your motor to render assistance or evade commercial traffic. In both cases you cannot advance your position and it has to be reported to the RC. If you use your motor to unground or prevent a grounding you need to retire.

TURN POINT MARK
I think we would like to leave things as they are with Turn Point not being a mark of the course. Our hope is that this will encourage a little "creativity" in routing, even though I doubt that a course that does not include Boundary Pass / Haro Strait will get you on the podium! Now if this doesn't work and the fleet ends up all over the place we will put Turn Point in the course for next year!

Any other questions or comments? The number of registered boats still stands at 34, but we have heard of 3-4 others that are seriously thinking about joining in the fun!

#87 Errant

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 10:35 PM


I hear "Joss" is also racing...


It would be EXCELLENT to have Joss along -- this would be a perfect race for her!


Why is that? I've sailed her before and I'm contemplating doing this race on Joss again, but I'm a dinghy guy by trade and am apprehensive about a 3 day race...

Thoughts??

#88 Hayden C30

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 11:02 PM

Use of engine rule is easy to deal with guys. If a competitor feels he/she needs to use it to keep his/her vessel safe, out of the way of commercial traffic, or to assist another vessel, then record the amount of time you use it, your general heading, and don't use it to progress down the race course. Report it to the RC, and ask for redress. No need to make it more complicated.


The only thing that I would like to see added is in agreement with sloansailing highlighted above. "to keep his or her vessel safe" has a much higher burden of proof than does a grounding. Going aground on a sand or mud beach and having your boat take a six hour nap until the tide comes back is not a safety issue and you can wait it out. If you don't want to go aground, anchor in deeper water until the wind returns.

Being flushed into a rocky reef surrounded by deep water on a strong current with no steerage and unable to make way is an entirely different matter.

If a boat as no other choice other than to motor clear or be carried onto the rocks that is an issue of safety. As I said before, the test should be "if you didn't have an engine would you have called a Mayday?" The skipper would have to prove to the protest committee's satisfaction that this was an emergency. Unlikely to happen and difficult to prove but it should be an option, especially since they will have the actual tract of the vessel on Race Tracker. I think to qualify it would need caused entirely by current with no steerage and unable to maneuver. It should also be painful, short duration 1 minute max and long penalty 1 hour minimum. I just don't want the decision to be do I pull out of the race due to circumstances outside of my control or hope to flush safely through a mine field.

Any thoughts?

#89 Mistaken

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 11:38 PM



I hear "Joss" is also racing...


It would be EXCELLENT to have Joss along -- this would be a perfect race for her!


Why is that? I've sailed her before and I'm contemplating doing this race on Joss again, but I'm a dinghy guy by trade and am apprehensive about a 3 day race...

Thoughts??


I don't know where you are getting the 3-day race idea - for Joss this should be nothing more than an overnight trip in relatively protected waters. She should be able to finish by mid-day on Saturday in all goes well. I hear Icon is doing it again double-handed, so Joss should be able to easily do it double-handed or fully crewed...

#90 Mistaken

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 11:43 PM


Use of engine rule is easy to deal with guys. If a competitor feels he/she needs to use it to keep his/her vessel safe, out of the way of commercial traffic, or to assist another vessel, then record the amount of time you use it, your general heading, and don't use it to progress down the race course. Report it to the RC, and ask for redress. No need to make it more complicated.


The only thing that I would like to see added is in agreement with sloansailing highlighted above. "to keep his or her vessel safe" has a much higher burden of proof than does a grounding. Going aground on a sand or mud beach and having your boat take a six hour nap until the tide comes back is not a safety issue and you can wait it out. If you don't want to go aground, anchor in deeper water until the wind returns.

Being flushed into a rocky reef surrounded by deep water on a strong current with no steerage and unable to make way is an entirely different matter.

If a boat as no other choice other than to motor clear or be carried onto the rocks that is an issue of safety. As I said before, the test should be "if you didn't have an engine would you have called a Mayday?" The skipper would have to prove to the protest committee's satisfaction that this was an emergency. Unlikely to happen and difficult to prove but it should be an option, especially since they will have the actual tract of the vessel on Race Tracker. I think to qualify it would need caused entirely by current with no steerage and unable to maneuver. It should also be painful, short duration 1 minute max and long penalty 1 hour minimum. I just don't want the decision to be do I pull out of the race due to circumstances outside of my control or hope to flush safely through a mine field.

Any thoughts?


From my perspective, if you allow vessels to use their engine to "keep the vessel safe" you introduce or allow a whole new type of racing where you can push the edges knowing that your engine can be turned on to save you. In the last leg of the 2011 VI360 I remember transiting Porlier Pass against an ebb with little or no wind -- our boat was spinning around between the reefs as we were trying to set our anchor and/or sail out of trouble. It was very stressful and in the end we made it through. In thinking back on this if we had been able to start our engine it would have eliminated most of the risk and taken the skill out of the whole event. In that race if you put yourself in a position where you had to start your engine you were out...

#91 Hayden C30

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:42 AM

From my perspective, if you allow vessels to use their engine to "keep the vessel safe" you introduce or allow a whole new type of racing where you can push the edges knowing that your engine can be turned on to save you. In the last leg of the 2011 VI360 I remember transiting Porlier Pass against an ebb with little or no wind -- our boat was spinning around between the reefs as we were trying to set our anchor and/or sail out of trouble. It was very stressful and in the end we made it through. In thinking back on this if we had been able to start our engine it would have eliminated most of the risk and taken the skill out of the whole event. In that race if you put yourself in a position where you had to start your engine you were out...


I don't think that we are very far apart in our thinking. In the situation you described, I would not allow you redress for the use of engine and would score you DSQ. You were in that situation at your own hand. You willfully sailed into a know bad situation when you could have waited it out. You placed yourself in jepardy because if you successed you gained a geat advantage. If it ges in the dumper, too bad! The same would hold true of a boat that sailed too close to deception pass in light air and got sucked in. You should have been farther off, too bad! Your only choise is to flush through and hope to catch a hook in Cornet Bay until the current changes or DSQ.


By your own words "if you put yourself in a position where you had to start your engine you were out" I am only talking about situations beyond your resonable control.

The situation i had in mind was 0 apparent wind, 0 steerage, 0 control beginning in an area of relative safety. If the current transports you several miles from the area of relative safety to a place of great risk (translate this ot mean ROCKS, BIG ONES WITH NO SHOALS AROUND THEM AND LOTS OF TEETH!! :o ). I think that it COULD be permissible to apply a short (1 minute at most) push before going back to drifting. To pay for your sins, you get 1 hour added to your elapsed time. You would have to really think hard before putting her in gear.

Then you would have to convince the committee that you REALLY, REALLY NEEDED TO DO IT OR ELSE!!! In saying that, I am assuming that you would be on the committee and so that would not be at all easy. :lol: Slim chance but it MIGHT be possible. Anyway (becasuse hope springs eturnal) I keep racing instead of motoring home after all racing is why we are out there. I am more than likely racing in vain but at least there is a (tiny) chance.

#92 Hayden C30

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:56 AM

BTW, I have never been in a situation that I would consider meets the requirements I set forward. That includes the time that I was spinning 360's as I flew past the lighthouse on Marrowstone Point in over three knots of current even though I was close enough to hit it with a good throw.

It didn't meet the burden. I shouldn't have gotten that close to shore before the wind dropped, and there wasn't anything to hit. There are no protruding rocks, just the point so no real danger. (Needed new shorts just the same.) :P The same is true of Turn Point.

#93 ctutmark

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 02:12 AM

BTW, I have never been in a situation that I would consider meets the requirements I set forward. That includes the time that I was spinning 360's as I flew past the lighthouse on Marrowstone Point in over three knots of current even though I was close enough to hit it with a good throw.

It didn't meet the burden. I shouldn't have gotten that close to shore before the wind dropped, and there wasn't anything to hit. There are no protruding rocks, just the point so no real danger. (Needed new shorts just the same.) :P The same is true of Turn Point.


I think the crew of Jackrabbit would be willing to contest that there is no danger at Turn Point

#94 Hayden C30

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 02:15 AM

Do tell, what was the story?

#95 ctutmark

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 02:22 AM

Do tell, what was the story?

During 2010 Round the county they hit a rock at Turn point hard enough to bend the internal aluminum grid that the keel attaches to. A few banged up crew as well.

#96 sloansailing

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:30 AM

Look this race has been going on for 3 years, with no issues with motors put in gear. If you feel you need to put the motor in gear for any reason then record it, report it, and the Race Committee will determine if it is valid or not. End of story.

Doesn't anyone want to talk about the course or the current? To be honest I haven't even looked!

#97 nige

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:35 AM

Look this race has been going on for 3 years, with no issues with motors put in gear. If you feel you need to put the motor in gear for any reason then record it, report it, and the Race Committee will determine if it is valid or not. End of story.

Doesn't anyone want to talk about the course or the current? To be honest I haven't even looked!


I'd love someone to talk about the currents!

As a newbie to this area I dont have much info. Have been trying to find models or gribs without much luck....

#98 Crazy Ivan

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:37 AM

What was the fastest elapsed time for the J27? not corrected.

#99 Hayden C30

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:43 AM

I don't have my charts at home and I can't remember the specifics of rocks in the area but it sounds like this might be the type of situration i am trying to avoid. The questions I would ask at a protest would be:

1. Were they pushed that close by current or did they sail in.

2. Could they have anchored?
if the anser to either of those questions is yes than they casused their own problem and did not do everything that they could to avoid damage. Some times you gamble and loose.

If the answer to these questions is no then I would be inclined to allow the use of the engine for the few seconds it would take to clear out of the clear and immenent danger that was caused soley by the forsce of natuer. I hate to see a boat or crew damaged needlessly. Is there anyone who was on Jackrabbit that can shed some more light?

The key here is that with the tracker system the race cmmittee can "see" what is happening befor, during and after.

RRS 42.3 EXCEPTIONS SETIONS h allows this type of modifications to the rules.

(h) Sailing instructions may, in stated circumstances, permit propulsion using an engine or any other method, provided the boat does not gain a significant advantage in the race.



#100 Hayden C30

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:53 AM

Speaking of currents, does the Washburne Crrent atlas do a descent job of predicting the currents in this area. The few times i have used them they didn't seem to match up.




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