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What 20fter class do we bet on?


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#201 Bulbhunter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 10:04 PM


Can the U20 really be (casually) raced with just 2 ?

I'm waiting for some further evidence that someone cruised his U20 throughout the PNW - seems very unlikely.


Absolutely, I did deliveries for races with my two sons and we all slept on the boat. Last year we did 189 mile race on the boat (Long Distance Cruise). Slept like a baby when I was not on watch.

A truly multipurpose boat.


Owner in CA that cruised the PNW with his wife is a great guy if you have clams to buy a U20 I would be more than happy to put you in contact with him. Great guy. Also there is a family write up of crusing the Great lakes on the U20 class website its been there a very long time.

#202 Zipper2

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:17 AM

Gregg - 190 mile race on a U20 ? Sleeping like a baby off watch ?

Schoonerman - more than just sleeping down below ?

I must be getting old



Just did a 100 mile race in the PNW, Northern Century, on the U20 double handed. It was great fun. I frequently sail the boat out to the San Juan Islands for weekend trips.

We also race bouys double handed, it's great up to 15 knots, as long as you follow the trim mentioned earlier in this thread.

#203 Mako

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

I love racing my U20 single handed as well as double handed and fully crewed with 3. I raced single handed in the Border Run 71 miler in April this year. It was supposed to be a down wind race, but it turned out that it was upwind until night fall when the wind just shut off. It was slow, but an absolutely delightful sail. It took 22 1/2 hours, but I ended up winning single handed, I think beating all the double handed boats, and took 3rd in class overall. I was somewhere around 20th boat accross the finish line overall out of 200+ starters. I use a Raymarine ST1000 autopilot for manuevers when I single hand, and it makes singlehanding a breeze. I also raced the Konocti cup 26 miler single handed this year. Wind speed was about 12-14 knots. I was a little slower than the 4 other 3-up U-20s, but not too far off the mark. And I was faster downwind. All of the other U-20s beat me, but I corrected out in the exact middle of the fleet overall. I dry sail my U-20, keeping it on the trailer at home. I can arrive at my Club, raise the mast, rig, launch and cast off from the dock in about an hour with out any assistance. The U-20 really is the perfect 20 foot sport boat.

#204 Gregg

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:03 PM

Gregg - 190 mile race on a U20 ? Sleeping like a baby off watch ?

Schoonerman - more than just sleeping down below ?

I must be getting old


I've done other things down below..... If the U20 is a rocking.......

#205 Bulbhunter

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 05:07 PM


Gregg - 190 mile race on a U20 ? Sleeping like a baby off watch ?

Schoonerman - more than just sleeping down below ?

I must be getting old


I've done other things down below..... If the U20 is a rocking.......


HA HA - presumably after a few Goombay Smash'es LOL

#206 Zipper2

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 07:14 PM

I love racing my U20 single handed as well as double handed and fully crewed with 3. I raced single handed in the Border Run 71 miler in April this year. It was supposed to be a down wind race, but it turned out that it was upwind until night fall when the wind just shut off. It was slow, but an absolutely delightful sail. It took 22 1/2 hours, but I ended up winning single handed, I think beating all the double handed boats, and took 3rd in class overall. I was somewhere around 20th boat accross the finish line overall out of 200+ starters. I use a Raymarine ST1000 autopilot for manuevers when I single hand, and it makes singlehanding a breeze. I also raced the Konocti cup 26 miler single handed this year. Wind speed was about 12-14 knots. I was a little slower than the 4 other 3-up U-20s, but not too far off the mark. And I was faster downwind. All of the other U-20s beat me, but I corrected out in the exact middle of the fleet overall. I dry sail my U-20, keeping it on the trailer at home. I can arrive at my Club, raise the mast, rig, launch and cast off from the dock in about an hour with out any assistance. The U-20 really is the perfect 20 foot sport boat.



Forgot to mention the part about how easy dry sailing the U20 is at places that are set up for it. We have a facility where we can store the boat in the yard mast up. We're in the water in 30 mintues.

#207 Bulbhunter

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 07:58 PM

I love racing my U20 single handed as well as double handed and fully crewed with 3. I raced single handed in the Border Run 71 miler in April this year. It was supposed to be a down wind race, but it turned out that it was upwind until night fall when the wind just shut off. It was slow, but an absolutely delightful sail. It took 22 1/2 hours, but I ended up winning single handed, I think beating all the double handed boats, and took 3rd in class overall. I was somewhere around 20th boat accross the finish line overall out of 200+ starters. I use a Raymarine ST1000 autopilot for manuevers when I single hand, and it makes singlehanding a breeze. I also raced the Konocti cup 26 miler single handed this year. Wind speed was about 12-14 knots. I was a little slower than the 4 other 3-up U-20s, but not too far off the mark. And I was faster downwind. All of the other U-20s beat me, but I corrected out in the exact middle of the fleet overall. I dry sail my U-20, keeping it on the trailer at home. I can arrive at my Club, raise the mast, rig, launch and cast off from the dock in about an hour with out any assistance. The U-20 really is the perfect 20 foot sport boat.


The first U20 to win the Konocti Cup was mine - at the time I didn't own it but had sailed the boat for many years with the owner. On a total fluke last minute idea I asked if I could give it a try and ran up to Clearlake with plans on doing the race solo. Arrived at 2am - crashed out in the boat on the trailer - got up set the boat up solo. Went to register and they almost wouldn't let me when I said no crew. I wound up winning the whole damn thing! LOL - the U20 fleet then announced I was no longer allowed to race solo in pursuit races and that my Red Doberman who was spotted that same summer crewing for me yes he sits on the rail and switches sides when I call for a tack did not count as proper crew! LOL

My auto pilot was a bungie cord run over the tiller extension which then was pinned to the cockpit seat. Worked great but occasionally my spinnaker douse would include a some what expected 320 during the douse. LOL

#208 Mauri Pro

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:09 AM

I saw a previous post from a VX dealer and disagree with it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of my Viper (Rondar). My son and I are really happy that we purchased the boat and are looking forward to sailing and hopefully owning a second one when they roll out of the Rondar US factory.

We support all classes and do not understand the need for some dealers of going against other boats to sell their case. The facts are: both boats are great boats, sold at almost the same price, appealing to almost the same group/type of sailor. For the time being we are sticking with the Viper because there are large fleets/regattas to attend, if that changes in the future then we may consider some alternatives.

Note: I like the Melges 20 and understand the concept behind the J70, but having to hike on a Viper gives me a good excuse to have to exercise :)


Juan Mauri

#209 Vela Sailing Supply

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:25 AM

Sportboats are a breed that we really like and support on all version, there is a reason why we feel the way we do about the VX, but that does not make any other boat bad or better, simply different to, in fact different types of sailors. If something can be improved, these is a place where it can be ventilated, followed by improvement. It would be good if some here could have a broader vision about it. Instead of keeping it just on the talk, the best way anyone can make the call on what boat fits best for him/her is to try and test it. Here it is at least for one of the boats mentioned:

Posted Image

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#210 6924

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:00 PM

Sport boats; Ushering a New golden era of sailing ?

#211 Vernon Green

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 06:23 PM

I have just spent two days playing on a VX, the first day was light air 5-8 and today was 10-15. What a fun boat, puts a grin on my face ear to ear! So effortless to go fast but when you work you go even faster! No complaints so far about it. Without a doubt it on #1 on my future boat list.

Sportboats are a breed that we really like and support on all version, there is a reason why we feel the way we do about the VX, but that does not make any other boat bad or better, simply different to, in fact different types of sailors. If something can be improved, these is a place where it can be ventilated, followed by improvement. It would be good if some here could have a broader vision about it. Instead of keeping it just on the talk, the best way anyone can make the call on what boat fits best for him/her is to try and test it. Here it is at least for one of the boats mentioned:

Posted Image

RSVPs through our Facebook page or by email: info@velasailingsupply.com



#212 PurpleOnion

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 05:41 PM

I have just spent two days playing on a VX, the first day was light air 5-8 and today was 10-15. What a fun boat, puts a grin on my face ear to ear! So effortless to go fast but when you work you go even faster! No complaints so far about it. Without a doubt it on #1 on my future boat list.


I have to second that. I got out on one last weekend in similar conditions and it took 4 days and a really shitty client to wipe the smile off my face. It took about 3 minutes for a mediocre sailor to find the slot and about 10 minutes for a neophyte to find it. Downwind was phenomenal even with an inexperienced spin trimmer.

#213 ultraracer613um

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:17 PM

Time to get in the game Vernon ;-).

Bennett yachting (via vela) seems committed to building and supporting a fleet of sportboats down here in Texas / Oklahoma. Way to go boys, your making me want to get off the couch.

Any pictures from this past weekend? Regatta report?



I have just spent two days playing on a VX, the first day was light air 5-8 and today was 10-15. What a fun boat, puts a grin on my face ear to ear! So effortless to go fast but when you work you go even faster! No complaints so far about it. Without a doubt it on #1 on my future boat list.


I have to second that. I got out on one last weekend in similar conditions and it took 4 days and a really shitty client to wipe the smile off my face. It took about 3 minutes for a mediocre sailor to find the slot and about 10 minutes for a neophyte to find it. Downwind was phenomenal even with an inexperienced spin trimmer.



#214 Vernon Green

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:20 AM

G/F and I are talking about it seriously. Financially we are about a year away from being able to make that step. Figure this time next year if things go to plan we will be ordering a VX.

There is a small group of young guys/couples at our club, we all have sat down and talked about what we want to be sailing in 5 years. The VX seems to be the pick among us. Brad already having one helps, then after spending a weekend playing on the boat! I am hooked!

Time to get in the game Vernon ;-).

Bennett yachting (via vela) seems committed to building and supporting a fleet of sportboats down here in Texas / Oklahoma. Way to go boys, your making me want to get off the couch.

Any pictures from this past weekend? Regatta report?




I have just spent two days playing on a VX, the first day was light air 5-8 and today was 10-15. What a fun boat, puts a grin on my face ear to ear! So effortless to go fast but when you work you go even faster! No complaints so far about it. Without a doubt it on #1 on my future boat list.


I have to second that. I got out on one last weekend in similar conditions and it took 4 days and a really shitty client to wipe the smile off my face. It took about 3 minutes for a mediocre sailor to find the slot and about 10 minutes for a neophyte to find it. Downwind was phenomenal even with an inexperienced spin trimmer.



#215 BradH

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:09 PM

Any pictures from this past weekend?


Vernon has video.

#216 ejpoulsen

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 03:42 PM

Can the U20 really be (casually) raced with just 2 ?

I'm waiting for some further evidence that someone cruised his U20 throughout the PNW - seems very unlikely.


YES. Did it for some Wed night type races. But there's a wind limit--above 12-15 knts could get too hairy getting the spin up and down.

#217 Gregg

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

U20 Cruising story http://www.u20class....eakeCruise.html

I double handed my U20 for an entire season a couple years back. We won the entire season series. Great boat!

#218 6924

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:18 PM


Gregg - 190 mile race on a U20 ? Sleeping like a baby off watch ?

Schoonerman - more than just sleeping down below ?

I must be getting old


I've done other things down below..... If the U20 is a rocking.......



Is that what they mean by double handed ?

#219 Amati

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:22 AM

U20 is fun single handed. Pretty good double handed, but for some reason not as fun as single handed, or 3 handed. Kind of a grey area. A self tacking jib might help? Winches for the assy? Or a smaller Assym for two up? Getting dragged across the cockpit gets old. But GREAT in the light 2 up. Upwind no worries. Just downwind it gets....hard....

#220 Gregg

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:31 PM

Winches, no way. If you are having problems with not being able to pull in the spinnaker, you probably do not have the ratchet blocks turned on. When I double handed the entire season, my crew was a 65 year young lady.

#221 Bulbhunter

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:29 PM

Winches, no way. If you are having problems with not being able to pull in the spinnaker, you probably do not have the ratchet blocks turned on. When I double handed the entire season, my crew was a 65 year young lady.


Or he weighs 30lbs and needs a few lead bricks stuffed in his shorts.

#222 Amati

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:27 AM

Sometimes we needed 2 on the Assym. Even with the ratchets. It was the delights of cruising the U20 that led us to having Amati designed and built. Fast cruisers are so cool. I begged Ultimate to do a 33-35'er. I think Jeff might have done it, but he was gone by then.

Why is it that 2 up easily planing cruisers are so rare?

Fwiw, here are a few:

http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/


#223 Bulbhunter

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:48 PM

Sometimes we needed 2 on the Assym. Even with the ratchets. It was the delights of cruising the U20 that led us to having Amati designed and built. Fast cruisers are so cool. I begged Ultimate to do a 33-35'er. I think Jeff might have done it, but he was gone by then.

Why is it that 2 up easily planing cruisers are so rare?

Fwiw, here are a few:

http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/


Jim Antrim has had what he calls his Pac Cup special on paper for many years now I recall it is 33-34ft long. Former owner of U20 144 a very close friend of Jim Antrim's and excellent sailor dreamed up a cruising boat with Jim while they played guitars and did band stuff together that design is also up on Jim's site and on paper. You show Jim the money and you could be building one in the shed at Berkeley Marine center with some of the most well known local SF sailors known for really good build skills doing the work.

As they say all it takes is money

#224 6924

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:38 AM

Heard the U20s on Lake Murry and Lake Norman are consistently faster than the J/70s - can anyone confirm ?

#225 hotair

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 02:18 PM

Light air , big jib ?

#226 Gregg

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 02:44 PM

Heard the U20s on Lake Murry and Lake Norman are consistently faster than the J/70s - can anyone confirm ?


Your info is correct!

#227 TBone

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

Is this surprising?

#228 6924

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

Surprising ?

The boats are very similar in concept.

The J/70 has a longer waterline and is a brand new design. One would think the J/70 would be significantly faster than the Ultimate 20. surprised indeed.

I was also told the J/70 has significant Lee Helm downwind by 2 experienced racers.





#229 Snapper95

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:04 PM

Why won't the boats sell?

#230 ultraracer613um

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:48 AM

Wish you would have had yours out this weekend snapper.

#231 Gregg

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:46 PM

J70

LOA 22ft 9in
BEAM 7ft 5in
DRAFT 4ft 9in
DISPLACEMENT 1,750lb
SAIL AREA 226 ft2 (100% FT)

U20

LOA 20 ft. 10 in.
LWL 18 ft.
Draft (keel down) 5 ft.
Displacement 1260 lbs.
Ballast 450 lbs.
Mainsail 205 ft. sq.
Jib 100 ft. sq.
Class Spinnaker 452 ft. sq

Sail area to displacement!!!

#232 6924

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

Wow !

J/70 has less sail area than a Schock Harbor 20

#233 Rubber Duck

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:37 PM

If your on the west coast and are looking for close one design racing I would definitely put some thought into the Open 5.70. The class is competitive and growing, and the association provides a ton of support. They really help you along the way with just about anything you need. The boat is a blast to sail, especially in breeze, but also stable and comfortable enough to daysail with family or friends. As for some of the criticisms, the main sheet takes some getting used to if your not a cat sailor, but becomes second nature with a little practice, and the mast is a bit heavy, but the step has a safety pin system (as on most cats) and Im of average build and can step it myself without too much effort.

LOA 18 ft. 9 in.
LWL 18 ft. 9 in.
Draft (keel down) 5 ft. 9 in.
Displacement 992 lbs.
Ballast 405 lbs.
Mainsail 182 ft. sq.
Jib 90 ft. sq.
Class Spinnaker 378 ft. sq
SA (upwind) 272 sq. ft.
SA (downwind) 560 sq. ft.

#234 Bulbhunter

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:30 PM

Wow !

J/70 has less sail area than a Schock Harbor 20


LOL Wasn't this heavy weight of the 70 vs sail area already pointed out back before the first hulls had even made the little dog and pony show tour?

1750lbs!!!!! Here piggy - piggy- Here Piggy
Oh wait thats considered bullying now days.

#235 Snapper95

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:52 PM


Wow !

J/70 has less sail area than a Schock Harbor 20


LOL Wasn't this heavy weight of the 70 vs sail area already pointed out back before the first hulls had even made the little dog and pony show tour?

1750lbs!!!!! Here piggy - piggy- Here Piggy
Oh wait thats considered bullying now days.


But why has the "Piggy" in a few months, already outsold, what, two decades of U20 production? What's the reason? The U20 seems like a nice little ship, it has good specs, but it really isn't selling. People seem to get that there aren't many OD fleets around the country. I stayed away precisely for that reason.

Why? What can you do? Hijacking threads and snarky guerrilla marketing doesn't seem to be working.

#236 Bulbhunter

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:00 AM



Wow !

J/70 has less sail area than a Schock Harbor 20


LOL Wasn't this heavy weight of the 70 vs sail area already pointed out back before the first hulls had even made the little dog and pony show tour?

1750lbs!!!!! Here piggy - piggy- Here Piggy
Oh wait thats considered bullying now days.


But why has the "Piggy" in a few months, already outsold, what, two decades of U20 production? What's the reason? The U20 seems like a nice little ship, it has good specs, but it really isn't selling. People seem to get that there aren't many OD fleets around the country.

Why? What can you do? Hijacking threads and guerrilla marketing doesn't seem to be working.


Snapper are you the same guy who was saying how great the little Holder 20 was just a few years ago?N

No Highjack just funny that it took J what 20yrs to catch up with the program and the end result was a heavy boat. I sold U20's for the simple idea to get a fleet going. I got a shirt out of the deal.

Whats the difference between the two? Simple shoe string budget - a top respected super go fast designer and small top quality builders with low volume. All before the idea of a light 20 foot sport boat was nothing more than the new M24 being the rage and the little U20 being viewed as extreme and too adventuresome to purchase by those who had money to buy them.

Oh how times have changed the older sailors are deciding fast - easily handled 20 footers designed with todays ideas are not the beasts they thought they were.

J boats simply went for the soft ride hoping the elder types might not be as spooked by its performance vs the viper and heck even the U20. Given even today that is still a big part of the selling effort is showing people that these boats are not 18ft skiffs that require weatsuits and crash helmets for a simple day sail with the wife. LOL

Oh and yes I think J boat could have easily done WAY WAY Better on the weight.

There are still more active U20's on the SF Bay than J/70's in SF sold for something other than the seed price.

#237 Snapper95

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:12 AM

No, believe it or not, there is an older, wiser snapper around here that predates me.

I didn't ask about the differences, just why the mature U20 has paltry sales vs the upstart "Piggy" boat that you mocked.

What can be done at this late date to make potential buyers start buying the older U20?

You guys fail when you get caught up in comparing one design boats relative performance, as if a half knot or a hundred pounds is going to sway sales. The market obviously doesn't care, and is looking at the full picture.

#238 dolphinmaster

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:32 AM

No, believe it or not, there is an older, wiser snapper around here that predates me.

I didn't ask about the differences, just why the mature U20 has paltry sales vs the upstart "Piggy" boat that you mocked.

What can be done at this late date to make potential buyers start buying the older U20?

You guys fail when you get caught up in comparing one design boats relative performance, as if a half knot or a hundred pounds is going to sway sales. The market obviously doesn't care, and is looking at the full picture.


Just seems like they could've had this be the J111 offspring instead of the J22 with a new hairdo and leisure suit.

#239 6924

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:31 AM

Ins't The Most important question - which boat is best to Shag on ?

#240 fastyacht

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:36 AM

Highlander. ;-)

#241 schoonerman

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:17 AM

U20 definitely has a shagging cabin <blush>

#242 Jerryd

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:55 AM

Its interesting that most all of the buyers who purchased J-70's actually went to see them and sail them rather then try to dissect their performance capabilities from specs. on the Internet :rolleyes:

#243 Steam Flyer

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

...

You guys fail when you get caught up in comparing one design boats relative performance, as if a half knot or a hundred pounds is going to sway sales. The market obviously doesn't care, and is looking at the full picture.


Does this mockable "Piggy" sorry cool new boat have cup holders? I think the market cares about cup holders.

FB- Doug

#244 junta

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:19 PM

Then why all the hype about J boats selling all these boats when it was just vaporware and only a mention of "afterburners"?

J has a better established brand than Ultimate. J boats will sell more than Ultimate because they have the dealer network and brand loyalty. Has nothing to do with performance.

#245 6924

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:46 PM

Aside from the shag cabin - another measure of success might be how long do owner's keep their boats ?




#246 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

J boats will sell more than Ultimate because they have the dealer network and brand loyalty. Has nothing to do with performance.


Plus a clear, strong marketing plan, big advertising and boat show budgets, and good focus from the guys at the top of the company.

Also a heck of a lot prettier than the u-20, which really is looking its age design-wise.

#247 Gregg

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:31 PM

Aside from the shag cabin - another measure of success might be how long do owner's keep their boats ?


I have had my U20 for 12 years..... It is still just as much fun as the day I bought it and in excellent condition!


Clean as for showing it's age in design.... I would have to disagree. The Ultimate 20 was ahead of its time!

#248 Bulbhunter

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:50 PM

No, believe it or not, there is an older, wiser snapper around here that predates me.

I didn't ask about the differences, just why the mature U20 has paltry sales vs the upstart "Piggy" boat that you mocked.

What can be done at this late date to make potential buyers start buying the older U20?

You guys fail when you get caught up in comparing one design boats relative performance, as if a half knot or a hundred pounds is going to sway sales. The market obviously doesn't care, and is looking at the full picture.


Actually if anything there are not enough J70's sailing anyplace for long enough period of time for people to decide it the boat is too slow for their tastes. However nothing kills momentum on the new boats faster than over blown performance statements making buyers think they bought afterburner equipped boat that weigh's quite a bit more than the other boats already sold and established in the market.

Every time I see people stating how fast the J/70's are on first gen sails and having no experience sailing any of the other 20foot sport boats I just chuckle. It's like a teenager getting his first car and thinking its the fastest thing on 4wheels even if its a 10yr old Honda Civic.

#249 Viper55

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

I'm a fan of the U20 and wish I owned one. They hold there value and sell fairly quickly when listed....yes, I've been watching. I think it hurt the class when Abbott's place burned down.

I've also been following the J-70, looked it over several times. Pretty impressive to have 18 signed up for KW already...not having to wait in Homestead for an escort will make it a much cheaper regatta. It looks like a very strong One-design class out of the gate.

Yea the Viper 640 is faster than both of them....but having room for a cooler and some foulies is a luxury the Viper doesn't have.

#250 6924

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:20 PM

The V640, Vx, U20 all seem to be great boats with fun people involved.

#251 ultraracer613um

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:06 PM

Hurry up and send in your order... i'll pull strings for you down in Key West.


I'm a fan of the U20 and wish I owned one. They hold there value and sell fairly quickly when listed....yes, I've been watching. I think it hurt the class when Abbott's place burned down.

I've also been following the J-70, looked it over several times. Pretty impressive to have 18 signed up for KW already...not having to wait in Homestead for an escort will make it a much cheaper regatta. It looks like a very strong One-design class out of the gate.

Yea the Viper 640 is faster than both of them....but having room for a cooler and some foulies is a luxury the Viper doesn't have.



#252 Viper55

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:18 PM



Hurry up and send in your order... i'll pull strings for you down in Key West.


You got it!! Better win something before those Texas 80 Rockstars Flynn, Darden and Lutz get one.......




I'm a fan of the U20 and wish I owned one. They hold there value and sell fairly quickly when listed....yes, I've been watching. I think it hurt the class when Abbott's place burned down.

I've also been following the J-70, looked it over several times. Pretty impressive to have 18 signed up for KW already...not having to wait in Homestead for an escort will make it a much cheaper regatta. It looks like a very strong One-design class out of the gate.

Yea the Viper 640 is faster than both of them....but having room for a cooler and some foulies is a luxury the Viper doesn't have.



#253 Alkamid

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:31 AM

Shaw 6.5.

#254 tedrules

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:47 AM

Although I am the newest VX owner I think I have had more experience than others at capsizing, (I up loaded the capsize videos to youtube) basically because I think I have been the only one to go out in 35 knots a couple of times. Yes, the VX will turn turtle if you hang onto the weather gunwale and pull it over on to of you or if 35 knots or so is blowing at the hull. I broached in 25 knots while sailing my VX single handed on the weekend and it did not turn turtle. This leads me to believe that in around 20 knots it will not go further than 90 degrees. When I came in and blew the kite halyard it popped straight up.

The VX lights up downwind like no other as it is significantly lighter than the others. With a lighter rigged weight and crew it is still around 300lbs (140kgs) lighter than the Viper which would be the closest in weight. It also shares the same pedigree as the Viper and while looking low & wet is dry, at least for the skipper. She is also a dream to helm downwind.

One of the things I like about the VX is that she seems to be pretty indestructible. I have had a kite up in 35 knots and sailed upwind in 40 knots and after inspection back at the dock found that nothing is broken and everything is still in perfect working order.

Every one I have taken for a sail has loved the boat. Even professional sailor & coach Steve McConaghy said "That boat is a weapon, one of the best rides I have had downwind in 25 knots and I stayed reasonably dry"
(I am the agent for the VX One in Sydney, VX One Australia)

#255 PurpleOnion

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:06 AM

Although I am the newest VX owner I think I have had more experience than others at capsizing, (I up loaded the capsize videos to youtube) basically because I think I have been the only one to go out in 35 knots a couple of times. Yes, the VX will turn turtle if you hang onto the weather gunwale and pull it over on to of you or if 35 knots or so is blowing at the hull. I broached in 25 knots while sailing my VX single handed on the weekend and it did not turn turtle. This leads me to believe that in around 20 knots it will not go further than 90 degrees. When I came in and blew the kite halyard it popped straight up.

The VX lights up downwind like no other as it is significantly lighter than the others. With a lighter rigged weight and crew it is still around 300lbs (140kgs) lighter than the Viper which would be the closest in weight. It also shares the same pedigree as the Viper and while looking low & wet is dry, at least for the skipper. She is also a dream to helm downwind.

One of the things I like about the VX is that she seems to be pretty indestructible. I have had a kite up in 35 knots and sailed upwind in 40 knots and after inspection back at the dock found that nothing is broken and everything is still in perfect working order.

Every one I have taken for a sail has loved the boat. Even professional sailor & coach Steve McConaghy said "That boat is a weapon, one of the best rides I have had downwind in 25 knots and I stayed reasonably dry"
(I am the agent for the VX One in Sydney, VX One Australia)

I'd like to argue with you just on principle. No boat can be that good. Unfortunately, having had the opportunity to sail on one, I can do nothing but agree with you. Fantastic boat. If I had to indulge my impulse to argue with your superlatives, I would say that it's not quite as dry as you proclaim. Even then I would be stretching the truth. You're not going to go camping on a VX and shagging on one would be a very public endeavor, but if you're looking for sailing thrills, it can't be beat.

#256 Port Tack Start

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:13 AM

[...] shagging on one would be a very public endeavor [...]


What if you threw on a boom-tent like the shields have? Why isn't that a standard option?! Although I guess the 45 degree rolls at the dock would be an indication too...

#257 tedrules

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:31 AM

Although I am one of the newer VX owners around I think that I can speak with authority on capsizing as I have probably capsized it more than anyone else (and posted the videos on youtube). Part of the reason for the number of capsizes is that no one else is probably as crazy as me as I have sailed my VX a couple of times in 35 knots and even upwind in 40 knots.

Last weekend while sailing single handed in 20 knots or so I broached my VX and it did not turn turtle and once I blew the kite halyard it came straight up.. It will turn turtle if you hang onto the windward gunwale and pull it over on top of you or if there is 35 knots of wind blowing on the hull.

Up to around 18 knots there is not enough wind to capsize the boat but in 25 knots there is. With a pedigree similar to the Viper the VX lights up downwind even more I would say. With a sailing weight including crew about 300lbs (140Kg) lighter than the Viper it just motors. I have two sail reached past a Melges 32 in 25 knots! Also like the Viper she is a dream to steer down wind with the wide transom making for a very stable platform, the deep rudder hangs on even in extreme conditions and there is enough bouyancy forward to keep the bow out of the water.

I have taken 30 people out for a sail on my boat and they all have a massive smile by the end of it. Professional sailor & coach Steve McConaghy said, "That thing is a weapon, one of the best rides I have had downwind in 25 knots and I stayed reasonably dry"

One thing that I like is that it can take a hell of a lot and stay in one piece. I have had the kite up in 35 knots and sailed home upwind in 40 knots and everything is in perfect working order. There are not too many boats that you can say that about!


#258 Icebear

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:54 PM

I have had the kite up in 35 knots and sailed home upwind in 40 knots and everything is in perfect working order.

Why bother with VO60s? The VX is Southern Ocean capable!

#259 ultraracer613um

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:48 PM

Your right, the boat rocks it in breeze. This past weekend my wife and i decided to go race a regatta in North Texas - just the two of us. Predicted winds of 25 on average made us a bit nervous, sailing combined at about 330lbs but we figured we'd just go have fun.

It rocked.. regular gusts into the low 30's on Sunday. The boat is set up so that it's a dream to sail in big breeze. Lower checks on the rig mean you can ease the main and drive off the jib. Down-wind the boat launches, and is very forgiving. We overstood the leward mark several times and had to come in reaching hard - no issue even in that breeze.

I think we would have been a bit faster had we had we been closer to 400 upwind but that would most likely balance out down-hill.

GREAT 2-up boat.









Although I am one of the newer VX owners around I think that I can speak with authority on capsizing as I have probably capsized it more than anyone else (and posted the videos on youtube). Part of the reason for the number of capsizes is that no one else is probably as crazy as me as I have sailed my VX a couple of times in 35 knots and even upwind in 40 knots.

Last weekend while sailing single handed in 20 knots or so I broached my VX and it did not turn turtle and once I blew the kite halyard it came straight up.. It will turn turtle if you hang onto the windward gunwale and pull it over on top of you or if there is 35 knots of wind blowing on the hull.

Up to around 18 knots there is not enough wind to capsize the boat but in 25 knots there is. With a pedigree similar to the Viper the VX lights up downwind even more I would say. With a sailing weight including crew about 300lbs (140Kg) lighter than the Viper it just motors. I have two sail reached past a Melges 32 in 25 knots! Also like the Viper she is a dream to steer down wind with the wide transom making for a very stable platform, the deep rudder hangs on even in extreme conditions and there is enough bouyancy forward to keep the bow out of the water.

I have taken 30 people out for a sail on my boat and they all have a massive smile by the end of it. Professional sailor & coach Steve McConaghy said, "That thing is a weapon, one of the best rides I have had downwind in 25 knots and I stayed reasonably dry"

One thing that I like is that it can take a hell of a lot and stay in one piece. I have had the kite up in 35 knots and sailed home upwind in 40 knots and everything is in perfect working order. There are not too many boats that you can say that about!



#260 Icebear

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

Lower checks on the rig mean you can ease the main and drive off the jib.


Ultra, do you mean you can ease the main further without interacting with the spreaders? If so, nice feature and the rig still appears to be robust.

How does the boat sail under main with the jib furled in heavy stuff?

#261 ultraracer613um

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:42 PM

Not exactly. On an boat w/o backstay and gnav instead true vang like the viper, vx and the like - your mainsheet controls forestay tension to some degree. On the V - even with full GNAV on the forestay goes slack when you ease the mainsheet - which is why in a blow you play the jib in and out more than you play the mainsheet in and out. You never see anyone fully flogging the viper main. You might keep this from happening a bit with lowers but that's not fast either on the v. So in a blow you end up doing a lot of pinching with the main only eased a pinch.

When Brian and southern designed the VX rig they put checks that run to the lower part of the mast, near where the GNAV is. So when you gnav on those catch the mast and tension the forestay. So in a blow you can ease the main out just like you would a j22 or whatever... flog it if you need to and drive off the jib. Helps make the boat easy to sail upwind fast because you're not trying to be pinchy with those thin foils. - look at the first picture on this page http://vxonedesignra...om/vxodr/photos

also - with the self tacking jib you can play the car and not the sheet - that let's you drop the sheeting angle outward without making the jib deep.

Down-wind there's no risk of mast inversion so you can kill the gnav all the way and let the mainsail hit the spreaders w/o worry.

It's pretty well thought out and really makes the boat easy to sail in big breeze. You could do the same thing with your Viper - adding those lower checks at least.



Lower checks on the rig mean you can ease the main and drive off the jib.


Ultra, do you mean you can ease the main further without interacting with the spreaders? If so, nice feature and the rig still appears to be robust.

How does the boat sail under main with the jib furled in heavy stuff?



#262 Icebear

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

Good stuff, Ultra. Thanks for the explanation

#263 tedrules

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:49 PM

The VX One goes upwind fine with jib furled. You lose some height & speed but you get more control back. In 35 to 40 knots it is pretty much impossible to sail with the jib out but with it furled it is managable.
The picture below from the Heaven Can Wait race around Lake Macquarie (north of Sydney) a bit over a month ago.
The breeze was blowing about 25 knots. We did a fair bit upwind and tight reaching with the jib furled.
Much of the race was reaching so it suited the VX. Of the sports boats only the Stealth 8 and Melges 32 beat us home and we beat them all on handicap.


Attached File  VX One Upwind Main.jpg   136.55K   45 downloads

#264 ultraracer613um

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:01 PM

Sail upwind with the jib furled? In 25 knots? Ah, you Aus sissies... come down, over, under...whatever - to Texas and we'll show you how to handle the boat will full canvas - two-up at that!

throwdown

The VX One goes upwind fine with jib furled. You lose some height & speed but you get more control back. In 35 to 40 knots it is pretty much impossible to sail with the jib out but with it furled it is managable.
The picture below from the Heaven Can Wait race around Lake Macquarie (north of Sydney) a bit over a month ago.
The breeze was blowing about 25 knots. We did a fair bit upwind and tight reaching with the jib furled.
Much of the race was reaching so it suited the VX. Of the sports boats only the Stealth 8 and Melges 32 beat us home and we beat them all on handicap.


Attached File  VX One Upwind Main.jpg   136.55K   45 downloads



#265 tedrules

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:38 PM

How about single handed with the kite up in 25 knots, can you do that?
16.7 knots!

Attached File  VX OneupKite.jpg   124.54K   59 downloads

#266 ultraracer613um

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:06 PM

LOL so it's only when you have crew that you tone it down?

Just giving ya a hard time. We appreciate out Australian homies down here.


How about single handed with the kite up in 25 knots, can you do that?
16.7 knots!

Attached File  VX OneupKite.jpg   124.54K   59 downloads



#267 6924

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:28 PM

Wow -

#268 starsinker

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:44 PM

A j70 has arrived at my club in Vancouver and it looks like what I have been looking for to sail/race with my teenage sons (14&16). The Ultimate 20 looks like a good option too, and a lot less $. There is an M24 fleet developing here, but I think it is too difficult to race with my boys. Too physical, too techno.

#269 WCB

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

You'd like the U20. I used to race for a couple of guys two up in light wind. With two teenage sons it'd be perfect. I'm sure the J70 would be awesome too but the U20 used at $20k is hard to pass up. We have a fleet of 8-9 in Salt Lake City, and growing.

#270 Barnboat

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

How about single handed with the kite up in 25 knots, can you do that?
16.7 knots!

Attached File  VX OneupKite.jpg   124.54K   59 downloads


Far short of the 23 knots boat speed predicted by the designer's VPP in 25 kts TWS. VPP appears way off.

#271 Streetwise

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:31 AM

He is sailing solo.

#272 BradH

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:47 AM


How about single handed with the kite up in 25 knots, can you do that?
16.7 knots!

Attached File  VX OneupKite.jpg   124.54K   59 downloads


Far short of the 23 knots boat speed predicted by the designer's VPP in 25 kts TWS. VPP appears way off.


Appearances can be deceiving.

#273 schoonerman

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

A j70 has arrived at my club in Vancouver and it looks like what I have been looking for to sail/race with my teenage sons (14&amp;16). The Ultimate 20 looks like a good option too, and a lot less $. There is an M24 fleet developing here, but I think it is too difficult to race with my boys. Too physical, too techno.


U20 is TONS of Fun. Great boat for kids. Mine loved having the cabin, but they were younger then and it was a hideaway.

M24 is not very phsyical for the driver, just for the crew (folded hike).

Go to the Dealer and demo the J70. Ask if they'll take you on a beercan so you can make SURE your boys like it before you drop $50K+

#274 6924

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:04 PM

Schoon,

word is J/70 is now $54k, but dealers are quitely discounting 'heavily' to get rid of stagnant inventory as quickly as possible. J/Boats HQ is apparently shoving boats down dealer's throats.

When one builds 15 - 20 boats a month on spec, excess inventory starts building PDQ.

Springtime is sure going to be fun



#275 Gregg

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:10 PM

The U20 is affordable, great established class, good PHRF rating, great OD racing. I raised my boys on an Ultimate 20. Great for learning, great for fun, and speed. New and used boats available! http://www.u20class.org/

#276 Jerryd

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:02 PM

Schoon,

word is J/70 is now $54k, but dealers are quitely discounting 'heavily' to get rid of stagnant inventory as quickly as possible. J/Boats HQ is apparently shoving boats down dealer's throats.

When one builds 15 - 20 boats a month on spec, excess inventory starts building PDQ.

Springtime is sure going to be fun


Not sure why you keep repeating the same erroneus comments? Did J-Boats do something bad to you?

The fleet price went up to $40,450 on Oct. 31. I have 2 friends who have ordered their boats and because of the demand, won't receive them until March!

#277 WCB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:45 PM

Schoon,

word is J/70 is now $54k, but dealers are quitely discounting 'heavily' to get rid of stagnant inventory as quickly as possible. J/Boats HQ is apparently shoving boats down dealer's throats.

When one builds 15 - 20 boats a month on spec, excess inventory starts building PDQ.

Springtime is sure going to be fun


That's not true at all...I have a friend who just inquired about buying a J70 and he was given a window of next April. Jboats is still working towards catching up, there's no excess inventory.

#278 schoonerman

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:30 PM

Inventory is a funny thing. Some dealers have boats in stock that are not selling and other's are on the waitlist. Varies significantly region to region. Boats are too expensive to move or relocate the inventory from region to region.

I hear that June is the next available delivery date for a new boat on the West Coast if you don't buy one from inventory. I do know there's boats in inventory at several dealers in the West if you want one tomorrow. I suggest buying a boat, whatever boat you want and quickly. Put it in a sailing school for use and charter then you can depreciate it as a business asset. It's a legitimate tax tool, particularly if you are not managing the asset yourself.

I don't know about the $40K price point. I hear West coast boat costs $55K including delivery now....

I have a friend who was offered a 'seed' boat at $42K but that deal has long been rescinded.

#279 Scotch Whiskey

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:17 AM

Meh...by a Shaw 650. Faster, roomier, more fun...and once you go black, you never go back ;).

#280 6924

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:21 AM

sigh -

The information is solid - comes from someone who knows. The retail price is $54k plus shipping. If you are being quoted $40k, my math says that represents a 25% discount. 25% discount translates into the dealers selling at cost.
.
Also know a buyer who walked when he read the fine print of the so-called warranty.

A handful of dealers may have sold their initial 4 -5 boat required buy, but this represents a minority. Unclear exactly how many civilians are buying boats - because of the extreme hype coming from J/Boats HQ and the dealers. Seems plenty of Sailmakers and supplier types are being encouraged to get a boat, also at heavily discounted pricing .

Take a gander at the "Class" website and check out the long list of bogus fleets. The J/111 seems to have fizzled. 60 heavily hyped initial orders and now 30 months later only 28 more boats 'sold' - worldwide. J/70 appears to be following a similar trajectory.

Recall, that the J/70 was a year late because of the Hudson contract manufacturing fiasco. Most Dealers ended up receiving their initial allotment at the end of sailboat buying season. Now an avalanche of boats is being shipped. ouch

Delivery in April isn't that big of backlog. Schoon mentioned Rondar USA's backlog extended to March.

on a side note
which lecherous old fart approved the banner ad tag line in the Chicks dig it worldwide - clangggggg






.

#281 teener

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:08 AM

Confirmed, this thread is guaranteed to generate bullshit.

#282 Jerryd

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

sigh -

The information is solid - comes from someone who knows. The retail price is $54k plus shipping. If you are being quoted $40k, my math says that represents a 25% discount. 25% discount translates into the dealers selling at cost.
.
Also know a buyer who walked when he read the fine print of the so-called warranty.

A handful of dealers may have sold their initial 4 -5 boat required buy, but this represents a minority. Unclear exactly how many civilians are buying boats - because of the extreme hype coming from J/Boats HQ and the dealers. Seems plenty of Sailmakers and supplier types are being encouraged to get a boat, also at heavily discounted pricing .

Take a gander at the "Class" website and check out the long list of bogus fleets. The J/111 seems to have fizzled. 60 heavily hyped initial orders and now 30 months later only 28 more boats 'sold' - worldwide. J/70 appears to be following a similar trajectory.

Recall, that the J/70 was a year late because of the Hudson contract manufacturing fiasco. Most Dealers ended up receiving their initial allotment at the end of sailboat buying season. Now an avalanche of boats is being shipped. ouch

Delivery in April isn't that big of backlog. Schoon mentioned Rondar USA's backlog extended to March.

on a side note
which lecherous old fart approved the banner ad tag line in the Chicks dig it worldwide - clangggggg


.


6924,

Why such a bad attitude about the J-70? Did they do something to you? It seems your posts are always attacking the boat. I'm pretty it will become an extremely popular OD class even with your criticism.

#283 Snapper95

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

All he has to do is name his "sources" so the claims can be verified. Everything he posts is at odds with what I have seen and experienced, talking to other owners.

A dealer that lies is a dead man given that owners talk to each other and compare notes. There is already another forum with a fast growing list of owners discussing exactly what is going on with the boat, current prices, performance, handling, etc, including direct emails between owners. Where the hell do you think the changes to the class rules came from. If I was a dealer, I sure as hell wouldn't be playing games.

That being the case, the fellow spouting all of these "rumors" is nothing more than a gossiping little high school cheerleader miffed at not being voted homecoming queen as well.

Cite your verifiable sources like a man, and I'll change my opinion.

#284 6924

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:15 AM

So -

#285 schoonerman

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:50 PM

Sailed the J70 this weekend. I really like the boat. It's not a skiffy style sportboat. Really just a J105 kinda shrunk with a smaller keel so it'll get up on the step. Huge cockpit and well fitted. Seems very well built. Need to make sure it doesn't develop the same gelcoat stress cracks the J80's all seem to have (at least all the ones I've seen). Tiller is goofy and kinda flimsy (I'll bet they fix this quickly), the traveler seems a bit too small for SF Bay in any breeze but the fit and finish of the boat is awesome. Southern built a brick of a rig for this boat so it doesn't look like it'll see the same attrition as the M20 rig has.

All in all, I'd give it 8 stars (out of 10). Price is a bit dodgy $55K west coast, all up, but they're selling the shit out of these all over the USA. I think the folks I sailed with will each buy one for the Bay.

Boat powers like a tug with a 5hp engine. You only need a torqeedo unless you have to move the boat far (I did). Powers at 6.5, half throttle.

I wish I could afford these as I think they'll make a great sailing school vessel. Kill the roach on the main, install a reef (the boom comes with a reef setup rigged up already :-) and build a doinky jib and kite for it. Viola...sailing 103!

Oh yeah...you can sleep down below too...sort of.

#286 GnD

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

Whate about the boat that seem to really start it all? the Melges 24? That fleet is really talking off here in the PNW. boats are coming up here as fast as they can be driven. 15 new boats here last year. With over 57 boats in our region.

A good boat can be had for 20-25k. Lots of new and slightly used sails to keep your over head down. They are relatively cheap to dry sail. the boat tows behing a mini van. Plus they are BLAST TO SAIL.

You do not have to be a rockstar to have a blast sailing the boat. We have local boats who are fast and never travel. But there are also boats that get the wild hair to do a fun travel event. 15 hours and the boat is down the coast. Sailing in warm. Home by Monday evening. I think the Melges 24 is fleet to watch for the 20 footers. It has energy, youth are getting back into and the old guys are staying in them.

#287 Bulbhunter

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:26 PM

Whate about the boat that seem to really start it all? the Melges 24? That fleet is really talking off here in the PNW. boats are coming up here as fast as they can be driven. 15 new boats here last year. With over 57 boats in our region.

A good boat can be had for 20-25k. Lots of new and slightly used sails to keep your over head down. They are relatively cheap to dry sail. the boat tows behing a mini van. Plus they are BLAST TO SAIL.

You do not have to be a rockstar to have a blast sailing the boat. We have local boats who are fast and never travel. But there are also boats that get the wild hair to do a fun travel event. 15 hours and the boat is down the coast. Sailing in warm. Home by Monday evening. I think the Melges 24 is fleet to watch for the 20 footers. It has energy, youth are getting back into and the old guys are staying in them.


GND you clearly have not read Schoonermans account of trying to find his innards after crewing on a M24 in SF Bay not long ago. All fixable with a change in OD rules and enforcement of course. But that would have happened years ago if the M24 class were serious about fixing the major complaints about the boat and the racing practices. The boat its self is a good value no doubt about it. Though it is actually larger much larger than the 20 somethings being discussed here.

#288 kmcfast

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:06 AM

Whate about the boat that seem to really start it all? the Melges 24? That fleet is really talking off here in the PNW. boats are coming up here as fast as they can be driven. 15 new boats here last year. With over 57 boats in our region.

A good boat can be had for 20-25k. Lots of new and slightly used sails to keep your over head down. They are relatively cheap to dry sail. the boat tows behing a mini van. Plus they are BLAST TO SAIL.

You do not have to be a rockstar to have a blast sailing the boat. We have local boats who are fast and never travel. But there are also boats that get the wild hair to do a fun travel event. 15 hours and the boat is down the coast. Sailing in warm. Home by Monday evening. I think the Melges 24 is fleet to watch for the 20 footers. It has energy, youth are getting back into and the old guys are staying in them.

I raced Melgi for years, an impressive boat and they all but ruined PHRF in PDX never got more that 4 boats in town .
Why not take the $25k and buy 25 Venture 21's and own your own fleet? sail with 2 crew and buy a set of sails for $2500 and plane... whats not to like.
http://groups.yahoo....venture21class/

#289 6924

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

Schoon,

wondering about your thoughts on the emphasis of Pros on the J/70 Class ?

Seems that most of the boats have Pros onboard. KWRW seems to have only 8-9 civilian boats out of 38 boats sailing. That suggests 3/4 of the class have Pros.

A expensive boat plus Pro sailing on board - is that good for sailing ?

#290 Jerryd

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:04 PM

Schoon,

wondering about your thoughts on the emphasis of Pros on the J/70 Class ?

Seems that most of the boats have Pros onboard. KWRW seems to have only 8-9 civilian boats out of 38 boats sailing. That suggests 3/4 of the class have Pros.

A expensive boat plus Pro sailing on board - is that good for sailing ?


I'm curious where you got that information? What constitutes a Pro? Sure, the sailmakers like Smith, Ullman. Have you reviewed the ISAF ratings of all the crews?

#291 GnD

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:23 PM


A j70 has arrived at my club in Vancouver and it looks like what I have been looking for to sail/race with my teenage sons (14&amp;16). The Ultimate 20 looks like a good option too, and a lot less $. There is an M24 fleet developing here, but I think it is too difficult to race with my boys. Too physical, too techno.


U20 is TONS of Fun. Great boat for kids. Mine loved having the cabin, but they were younger then and it was a hideaway.

M24 is not very phsyical for the driver, just for the crew (folded hike).

Go to the Dealer and demo the J70. Ask if they'll take you on a beercan so you can make SURE your boys like it before you drop $50K+


If you are in Vancouver. Pick up a melges 24. the fleet is hopping. Melges 24 do not have to be techno. They are actually VERY simple boats to rig and sell well. Hard to sell VERY well. You can be up to speed easy. there are a couple of very dialed boats for sale cheep in the PNW. PM and I can put you in touch. They come with a bunch of sails. Just a fun boat to sail, comfortable and fast. There will be a ton of sails available in PNW. Your boys will love it. They will pick up the boat and will love the racing. Plus they are cheaper than the J70.

#292 NextExit

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:43 PM



A j70 has arrived at my club in Vancouver and it looks like what I have been looking for to sail/race with my teenage sons (14&amp;16). The Ultimate 20 looks like a good option too, and a lot less $. There is an M24 fleet developing here, but I think it is too difficult to race with my boys. Too physical, too techno.


U20 is TONS of Fun. Great boat for kids. Mine loved having the cabin, but they were younger then and it was a hideaway.

M24 is not very phsyical for the driver, just for the crew (folded hike).

Go to the Dealer and demo the J70. Ask if they'll take you on a beercan so you can make SURE your boys like it before you drop $50K+


If you are in Vancouver. Pick up a melges 24. the fleet is hopping. Melges 24 do not have to be techno. They are actually VERY simple boats to rig and sell well. Hard to sell VERY well. You can be up to speed easy. there are a couple of very dialed boats for sale cheep in the PNW. PM and I can put you in touch. They come with a bunch of sails. Just a fun boat to sail, comfortable and fast. There will be a ton of sails available in PNW. Your boys will love it. They will pick up the boat and will love the racing. Plus they are cheaper than the J70.


There is also a new Viper 640 on its way to KYC with a brief stop in California. Should be at the club in early April. I'd be happy to arrange a sail when it gets here.

#293 GnD

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:56 PM


Whate about the boat that seem to really start it all? the Melges 24? That fleet is really talking off here in the PNW. boats are coming up here as fast as they can be driven. 15 new boats here last year. With over 57 boats in our region.

A good boat can be had for 20-25k. Lots of new and slightly used sails to keep your over head down. They are relatively cheap to dry sail. the boat tows behing a mini van. Plus they are BLAST TO SAIL.

You do not have to be a rockstar to have a blast sailing the boat. We have local boats who are fast and never travel. But there are also boats that get the wild hair to do a fun travel event. 15 hours and the boat is down the coast. Sailing in warm. Home by Monday evening. I think the Melges 24 is fleet to watch for the 20 footers. It has energy, youth are getting back into and the old guys are staying in them.


GND you clearly have not read Schoonermans account of trying to find his innards after crewing on a M24 in SF Bay not long ago. All fixable with a change in OD rules and enforcement of course. But that would have happened years ago if the M24 class were serious about fixing the major complaints about the boat and the racing practices. The boat its self is a good value no doubt about it. Though it is actually larger much larger than the 20 somethings being discussed here.


Don't know what the inner questions is about. We have been in the class for over 10 years. Never had issues finding parts or spars at a race. The Rules are inforced and are updated when in question. Updates are made yearly if any thing is brought up regarding a issue. Example: Hiking positions, hardware, weights, shims in mast, Standing on the bow when racing. The rules are modified to address it.

as far as what is being discussed here: I still would put the 24 against the J-70. there are very close in measurements. Yes the U-20 is shorter boat. I liked them. good short hand boat. gets weighted down fast. We found them to become very sticky in light winds with more then and couple people on them.

The Melges 24 is very well behaved short handed. We have sailed the boat 2 up and loved it. it is so fast in the light stuff. It has an very good PHRF rating non flying sails. We raced a couple of single handed races NFS. the boat does really well. when the wind comes up, sail it like a laser.

As far as the J70. easy by two Melges 24 and team race! You will still come up ahead. Plus we have better bbq's in the local class!

#294 jokerx9

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:29 AM

GnD- let me keep you honest here. I love the melges 24, but Any used boat is going to be cheaper than a new j70. It's hard to understand your grammar, but if I am reading the last line you wrote correctly, there is no way you can buy two melges 24s and come out ahead of one j70 on price! I do love the attempt tho to get people interested. LOL Melges 24 hands down are awesome boats.

#295 jokerx9

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

Dude is this guy ok?

#296 GnD

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

GnD- let me keep you honest here. I love the melges 24, but Any used boat is going to be cheaper than a new j70. It's hard to understand your grammar, but if I am reading the last line you wrote correctly, there is no way you can buy two melges 24s and come out ahead of one j70 on price! I do love the attempt tho to get people interested. LOL Melges 24 hands down are awesome boats.


There are two melges 24 for sale in the PNW right now for 25 to 30k. So Please get your facts inline. You can buy two dialed in used Melges 24 for the price of 1 J-70. So take that to your book of misquoted facts. If you would like the name and numbers of the boat owners please PM me. Take care,

#297 schoonerman

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

Schoon,

wondering about your thoughts on the emphasis of Pros on the J/70 Class ?

Seems that most of the boats have Pros onboard. KWRW seems to have only 8-9 civilian boats out of 38 boats sailing. That suggests 3/4 of the class have Pros.

A expensive boat plus Pro sailing on board - is that good for sailing ?


6924....ALL pros suck (except me...lol)

Seriously, pros are fine as long as they NEVER get paid to be aboard. We have loads of pros sailing the Viper class and yes, some probably get paid. The ethical ones won't take money as they know it's against the rulz.

The J70 will have to be VERY careful to not go the same way as the M24 and M20. The cost of racing both of those classes is stupid...at least if you want to win. The organizer of the M24 worlds here in the Bay is working hard to keep the corinthian spirit going in the class. Frankly, I'd love to race the worlds but that damn boat kills me. I'm 6'3" and hiking that thing requires me to adjust my spleen for 3 weeks after a regatta. Only fun place on a M24 for a 56 yo tall guy is back of the bus, a position I can ill afford. That's why I sail Vipers. I can afford them and all the crew spots share the same hiking strap...nice and cozy abdominizer :-)))


GnD- let me keep you honest here. I love the melges 24, but Any used boat is going to be cheaper than a new j70. It's hard to understand your grammar, but if I am reading the last line you wrote correctly, there is no way you can buy two melges 24s and come out ahead of one j70 on price! I do love the attempt tho to get people interested. LOL Melges 24 hands down are awesome boats.


There are two melges 24 for sale in the PNW right now for 25 to 30k. So Please get your facts inline. You can buy two dialed in used Melges 24 for the price of 1 J-70. So take that to your book of misquoted facts. If you would like the name and numbers of the boat owners please PM me. Take care,


GND....if there's any boats with old sails, crappy trailers but in good shape, let me know. We are still looking at the M24 for a sailing school boat. Frankly, I love the way the boat sails and the build quality. Has a LOT going for it and the price is quite good (but I still need to buy the ones without the inventory because we're building dinky sails for the Bay)

There is also a new Viper 640 on its way to KYC with a brief stop in California. Should be at the club in early April. I'd be happy to arrange a sail when it gets here.


That boat just arrived in SF yesterday on our new composite double (kit turns two trailers into a double) Gorgeous build. Hoorah to the boys in Peabody!

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#298 fastyacht

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

Hayes in his book Saving sailing somewhere cites a study or source that shows that somethign like 5% (or was it even more!) of us that sail--or was it race--are "in the business."

This was shown to be a symptom of the decline of the sport.

Pros are everywhere. What does it mean? In California I would be unable to race any regular races. In New England nobody cares.

#299 jokerx9

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

GnD- I was speaking, as the way it sounded like you were speaking, in general about buying two melges 24s for the price of one j70. It is very rare you see many of used melges 24s for under 25k at one time. So in general, it is not commonplace. I think this says a great thing about the boat in that many people are happy with their older melges 24s..

#300 GnD

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:56 AM

http://melges24.com/...uipment-charter

Here is a list of the boats for sale. 25k is the going price for a 300 and below hull number. The boats that are in that price are in good shape and come with a pile of sails. There currently two boats listed on this list now in that range that are stiff fast boats with sails.

For a Melges 24 person I can tell you there has been at least a couple of 25k or below hulls on this list for the last couple of years. So it is common place. The PNW owners have been buying up boats in this range for awhile.

It is amazing how the older boats are keeping their value.

Older trashed boats make great PHRF fun machines. There are piles of cheap used sails out there in garages all over the US.




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