319 replies to this topic

[Mambo Kings]

6924....ALL pros suck (except me...lol)

Seriously, pros are fine as long as they NEVER get paid to be aboard. We have loads of pros sailing the Viper class and yes, some probably get paid. The ethical ones won't take money as they know it's against the rulz.

The J70 will have to be VERY careful to not go the same way as the M24 and M20. The cost of racing both of those classes is stupid...at least if you want to win. The organizer of the M24 worlds here in the Bay is working hard to keep the corinthian spirit going in the class. Frankly, I'd love to race the worlds but that damn boat kills me. I'm 6'3" and hiking that thing requires me to adjust my spleen for 3 weeks after a regatta. Only fun place on a M24 for a 56 yo tall guy is back of the bus, a position I can ill afford. That's why I sail Vipers. I can afford them and all the crew spots share the same hiking strap...nice and cozy abdominizer :-)))

Nobody gets paid to sail on Vipers. Not probably. Not ever. Getting "paid" to sail on a Viper would be a clear breach of rule 69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing. If caught, it would unquestionably result in a pro being banned from the sport for a period of well over a year. No competent pro is going to run the risk of losing their livelihood for the typical fun events that the Viper class runs. If any idiot was willing to risk that, it probably means they are not good enough to make a livelihood from sailing, and are not worth having on the boat in the first place. There are pros who own Vipers and pros who sail with their friends on Vipers. They are on vacation when they are sailing Vipers.
Let's celebrate that pros are allowed to sail for fun, to take time out of their schedule to race for the sheer joy of racing sailboats without somebody writing a check, and without innuendo that they are breaking rules.
Even more pros in the A Class fleet....maybe some of them are getting paid by their skipper....Oh wait, maybe not !

Love you Schoon.....I'd pay big bucks to have you trim the middle of my boat (such a joy to have someone who can just reach out and grab the leeward sheet - yes, I saw that)....but rulz es rulz , you gotta do it because you love me.

[jokerx9]

I havent seen this to be true in the past, but if this is a newer common place thats great for the class. I think the class needs more 25k boats out there that people can hop into if they dont want to spend 65k for a new one.

[6924]

Mambo,


does a wee truckload of Goslings arriving at one's doorstep tally as pay :0

[RockHead]

I find it hilarious that I am a Cat 3 (even though I haven't bothered with ISAF). It's not like I magically got any better the day I stepped over the threshold into Rondar!

I'm still waiting for that $1000/day sailing gig... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Big Show]

6924....ALL pros suck (except me...lol)

Seriously, pros are fine as long as they NEVER get paid to be aboard. We have loads of pros sailing the Viper class and yes, some probably get paid. The ethical ones won't take money as they know it's against the rulz.

The J70 will have to be VERY careful to not go the same way as the M24 and M20. The cost of racing both of those classes is stupid...at least if you want to win. The organizer of the M24 worlds here in the Bay is working hard to keep the corinthian spirit going in the class. Frankly, I'd love to race the worlds but that damn boat kills me. I'm 6'3" and hiking that thing requires me to adjust my spleen for 3 weeks after a regatta. Only fun place on a M24 for a 56 yo tall guy is back of the bus, a position I can ill afford. That's why I sail Vipers. I can afford them and all the crew spots share the same hiking strap...nice and cozy abdominizer :-)))

Nobody gets paid to sail on Vipers. Not probably. Not ever. Getting "paid" to sail on a Viper would be a clear breach of rule 69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing. If caught, it would unquestionably result in a pro being banned from the sport for a period of well over a year. No competent pro is going to run the risk of losing their livelihood for the typical fun events that the Viper class runs. If any idiot was willing to risk that, it probably means they are not good enough to make a livelihood from sailing, and are not worth having on the boat in the first place. There are pros who own Vipers and pros who sail with their friends on Vipers. They are on vacation when they are sailing Vipers...

I would like to think you are correct and the rules say you 'should' be correct but you speak in absolutes with no real way of knowing or proving you are correct (sadly I suspect you are incorrect). Also, throwing around RRS 69 with such nonchalance is a bad look and would show one doesn't really know the reality WRT the blurring of the cat 1/3 line (I suspect you do) and how pro sailors are or can be compensated.

There's not a class that's immune to the BS fudging of the cat 1/3 line. Not one.

I haven't checked recently but I think there's only one sailor (an Aussie) who's suspended under RRS 69 for deliberately trying to fudge the cat 1/3 line and getting caught. To think he's the only one globally is naive at best.

I try not to worry about the whole cat1/3 thing so much. If someone wants to load up with 3s to race me then fine. I don't see why people get so bent up about it. Good for them I say and better competition for me to sail against. But I sail classes that allow unlimited 3s and enjoy racing against the pros. I actually look forward to it. It's fine that others feel differently.

Show

[Mambo Kings]

I havent seen this to be true in the past, but if this is a newer common place thats great for the class. I think the class needs more 25k boats out there that people can hop into if they dont want to spend 65k for a new one.

A new Viper is under $30k. By the time you have added sails and trailer etc, you are still at $34k.
There are some good 5 year old boats avaialble for $25k

[Mambo Kings]

6924....ALL pros suck (except me...lol)

Seriously, pros are fine as long as they NEVER get paid to be aboard. We have loads of pros sailing the Viper class and yes, some probably get paid. The ethical ones won't take money as they know it's against the rulz.

The J70 will have to be VERY careful to not go the same way as the M24 and M20. The cost of racing both of those classes is stupid...at least if you want to win. The organizer of the M24 worlds here in the Bay is working hard to keep the corinthian spirit going in the class. Frankly, I'd love to race the worlds but that damn boat kills me. I'm 6'3" and hiking that thing requires me to adjust my spleen for 3 weeks after a regatta. Only fun place on a M24 for a 56 yo tall guy is back of the bus, a position I can ill afford. That's why I sail Vipers. I can afford them and all the crew spots share the same hiking strap...nice and cozy abdominizer :-)))

Nobody gets paid to sail on Vipers. Not probably. Not ever. There are pros who own Vipers and pros who sail with their friends on Vipers. They are on vacation when they are sailing Vipers...

I would like to think you are correct and the rules say you 'should' be correct but you speak in absolutes with no real way of knowing or proving you are correct (sadly I suspect you are incorrect). Also, throwing around RRS 69 with such nonchalance is a bad look and would show one doesn't really know the reality WRT the blurring of the cat 1/3 line (I suspect you do) and how pro sailors are or can be compensated.

There's not a class that's immune to the BS fudging of the cat 1/3 line. Not one.

I haven't checked recently but I think there's only one sailor (an Aussie) who's suspended under RRS 69 for deliberately trying to fudge the cat 1/3 line and getting caught. To think he's the only one globally is naive at best.

I try not to worry about the whole cat1/3 thing so much. If someone wants to load up with 3s to race me then fine. I don't see why people get so bent up about it. Good for them I say and better competition for me to sail against. But I sail classes that allow unlimited 3s and enjoy racing against the pros. I actually look forward to it. It's fine that others feel differently.

Show

Hi Show,

The ISAF categories dont matter to the Vipers. We carefully studied how that went down. The Viper rule is simple. You cannot be paid to sail a Viper.

That applies to you too Rockskull. We really dont give a monkey what category that you are.

Of course it is much better to diplomatically have a quiet word to new Viper owners ahead of any issue. But unlike the ISAF category fudge and dance, if you broke the simple and clear Viper rule, the result of a hearing would be equally clear cut. Nobody that is worth having on board is going to break the rule. We are the friendliest group you can imagine, but just FYI, thats all.

[jokerx9]

Mambo - we were talking about the melges 24!

[Mambo Kings]

Mambo,


does a wee truckload of Goslings arriving at one's doorstep tally as pay :0

Goslings is allowed.

In all seriousness, the class uses the ISAF definition of "paid" and has issued some interpretations when asked. ISAF is clear that providing beverage, food and accomodation is allowed

Bacardi and Goslings are both allowed by ISAFand the class. Mount Gay is about to sponsor a Viper NAS so I think they will be allowed as well. Ben Moon brought Bundy to a regatta once and we are thinking that stuff should be banned, The Bermudan team brought 140 proof Goslings to Larchmont one spring and handed out dark and stormies that placed some of us on the Mamaroneck PD's most wanted list. That stuff is not only allowed, it is encouraged!

[Mambo Kings]

Mambo - we were talking about the melges 24!

Duh. Sorry. Got that.
Used Melges 24s got very cheap a couple of years back. But they've had a bit of a rebound as some truly Corinthian sailing has sprung up on the West coast. I think that is a great thing for the M24 class.

[jokerx9]

Yeah I noticed that too and that is the point I was making. Its great for the class, but you just dont see alot of 25k boats around. I also find it interesting that when you look at regatta photos or better yet go to a big melges 24 regatta, you dont see many older boats. Say 200 series below. Im not sure this is a positive thing for the class, although I dont think its any fault of the boat. Some of them were a victim of the "old school" ie. putting bottom paint on it and leaving it in the water. You never see anyone do that now days with a new boat. Many of the older boats have held up very well and are competitive. Its funny, those boats are not for sale either so they must be out there still.

[6924]

Interesting differences in class ethos developing;

J/70 - pros and industry insiders
V640 - lively Corithians
U20 - steady Corithians


And Mambo is correct that both the U20 and V640 have reasonably priced boats both new and used.

[GnD]

Interesting differences in class ethos developing;

J/70 - pros and industry insiders
V640 - lively Corithians
U20 - steady Corithians


And Mambo is correct that both the U20 and V640 have reasonably priced boats both new and used.

It does seem like the US Pro's jumped ship on the Melges 24 and went to the J70. At least for the KWRW. They put pretty much every boat they could on the line. Talking with some of the sailmakers they have high hopes with the j70. Put a lot of design work and HP into the j70 class.

J boat is putting their money behind this program to start it up. I think Melges pulled some of their 24 resources to start up the 20 and 32 programs. Now with the money being tighter for small sport boats it will be interesting to see what happens with the next couple of years

I would add that M24 is gaining top Corithians teams and are becoming a short distance traveling boat. There seems to be more 25 to 30 boat regattas that have some local pros on board. The Top teams show up for the major regattas. (worlds, Nationals,), but now there is a larger amount of local industry pros who just want to sail a fun boat. They are not prosailors, Not being paid to be on the boat. But do have the cat 3 rating because they are work in the marine industry.

[MattyKAllDay]

sooo if any of you are in the milwaukee area with your 20 footers, there if no fleets of any of those boats and i would love to go for a sail on one of them

[Gregg]

We have 2 Ultimate 20's in Racine. I have done Louies Last in Milwaukee a couple of times with my U20. You are welcome to come out for a sail any time the water gets softer!

sooo if any of you are in the milwaukee area with your 20 footers, there if no fleets of any of those boats and i would love to go for a sail on one of them

[wpbeardsley]

There's a Viper 640 at South Shore YC who I'm sure would take you for a spin -- PM me for details.

[EYESAILOR]

It would be really interesting to have another 20' sportboat demo day. Since the last one, some new classes have come and some have gone.
It would be great to line up a day when you can directly compare the big three classes, Melges 20, J70 and Viper, alongside the Ultimate 20, the VX, Open 5.7 , K6 etc. If someone organized a 20' sport boat mega fest, I bet it would be a big draw.

[schoonerman]

It would be really interesting to have another 20' sportboat demo day. Since the last one, some new classes have come and some have gone.
It would be great to line up a day when you can directly compare the big three classes, Melges 20, J70 and Viper, alongside the Ultimate 20, the VX, Open 5.7 , K6 etc. If someone organized a 20' sport boat mega fest, I bet it would be a big draw.

We have boats in several locations. I wonder if Sailing Anarchy should do this at their upcoming Worlds in September down in Dago. Needs to happen on the East Coast too.

Scott.......Clean?

[Speng]

It does seem like the US Pro's jumped ship on the Melges 24 and went to the J70. At least for the KWRW. They put pretty much every boat they could on the line. Talking with some of the sailmakers they have high hopes with the j70. Put a lot of design work and HP into the j70 class.

J boat is putting their money behind this program to start it up. I think Melges pulled some of their 24 resources to start up the 20 and 32 programs. Now with the money being tighter for small sport boats it will be interesting to see what happens with the next couple of years

I would add that M24 is gaining top Corithians teams and are becoming a short distance traveling boat. There seems to be more 25 to 30 boat regattas that have some local pros on board. The Top teams show up for the major regattas. (worlds, Nationals,), but now there is a larger amount of local industry pros who just want to sail a fun boat. They are not prosailors, Not being paid to be on the boat. But do have the cat 3 rating because they are work in the marine industry.

What sails does a stock J-70 come with? I thought it was Norths? What are the class rules regarding sails?

Last I knew for the U20s the Doyle (or was it Ullman) monopoly was scotched and the class opened up nicely. We had Ullman dacron rags on our boat and they were pretty nice but everyone else seemed to like their sails.

Who's making sails for the Vipers et al?

[jnye]

Who's making sails for the Vipers et al?

I'll take a shot at this one. For Vipers - Doyle (Boston), North, Ullman, Quantum, Evolution and Hydes.