Jump to content


iPad Performance Monitoring App?


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 eclipsemullet

eclipsemullet

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 48 posts
  • Location:Cowes
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 24 July 2011 - 04:52 PM

I'd like to use my iPad to monitor out First 40's performance in difference winds, directions etc.

Is there an App for that?

#2 inquiring Mind

inquiring Mind

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 456 posts

Posted 25 July 2011 - 06:06 AM

I'd like to use my iPad to monitor out First 40's performance in difference winds, directions etc.

Is there an App for that?


Try iRegatta. Here's the URL: http://letscreate.dk/

#3 Blur

Blur

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 857 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 25 July 2011 - 02:17 PM

To get it right and to be able to do proper analysis you need a serious application (ie Expedition or Deckman). Then use iPad as a second display. Works great.

#4 eclipsemullet

eclipsemullet

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 48 posts
  • Location:Cowes
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 25 July 2011 - 04:06 PM

To get it right and to be able to do proper analysis you need a serious application (ie Expedition or Deckman). Then use iPad as a second display. Works great.


I'd like to use Expedition but I'm Mac-only.

#5 Ncik

Ncik

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:27 AM


To get it right and to be able to do proper analysis you need a serious application (ie Expedition or Deckman). Then use iPad as a second display. Works great.


I'd like to use Expedition but I'm Mac-only.


Any reason you are mac only? Not judging, just saying that PCs won't give you cooties and if they're the right tool for the job...

#6 eclipsemullet

eclipsemullet

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 48 posts
  • Location:Cowes
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:42 AM



To get it right and to be able to do proper analysis you need a serious application (ie Expedition or Deckman). Then use iPad as a second display. Works great.


I'd like to use Expedition but I'm Mac-only.


Any reason you are mac only? Not judging, just saying that PCs won't give you cooties and if they're the right tool for the job...


The only reason is an irrational hatred of PCs and a deluded illusion that I am a superior Mac-user.

#7 Jambalaya

Jambalaya

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,267 posts
  • Location:UK, South East

Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:45 AM

20 years of using sub standard software gave me justifiable hatred of PCs - now entirely Mac household.

We've been experimenting a bit with iPad aboard but to be honest I am not a massive fan of software and computers on racing boats. To date we've found very little available off the shelf for the iPad, obviously the device would be great for data logging and displays, creating and monitoring sail cross over charts etc - possibly more of a case of a techy geek aboard writing an application

#8 eclipsemullet

eclipsemullet

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 48 posts
  • Location:Cowes
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 26 July 2011 - 12:03 PM

We've been experimenting a bit with iPad aboard but to be honest I am not a massive fan of software and computers on racing boats. To date we've found very little available off the shelf for the iPad, obviously the device would be great for data logging and displays, creating and monitoring sail cross over charts etc - possibly more of a case of a techy geek aboard writing an application



I use iNavX; really good.



#9 Jambalaya

Jambalaya

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,267 posts
  • Location:UK, South East

Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:02 PM


We've been experimenting a bit with iPad aboard but to be honest I am not a massive fan of software and computers on racing boats. To date we've found very little available off the shelf for the iPad, obviously the device would be great for data logging and displays, creating and monitoring sail cross over charts etc - possibly more of a case of a techy geek aboard writing an application



I use iNavX; really good.

Have seen that and agreed it looks good, personally I would never rely on anything not specifically designed for marine use for navigation, we have a Raymarine plotter. I do like the tide data on iNavx, unfortunately I only have a WiFi iPad. Does iNavX have instrument data logging - for that would be reason enough to consider it so I can build my own polar data ?

#10 Elegua

Elegua

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Location:The country that dare not speak it's name

Posted 27 July 2011 - 01:52 AM

iNavx is definitely designed for marine navigation and seems to be a navigation grade app. I don't see a gap with dedicated chart plotters except that the device it's one is not inherently waterproof and the user interface is better. In anycase, I just use electronics as a supplement for paper charts. Call me a Luddite.

I used it recently for a delivery RI to Maine. It can upload way points and record tracks and some some good features that allow you to do things like verify the stack you just took a bearing off of is really the stack you think you are looking at. I also like the ability to pull down and overlay gribs when cell service is available (I loaded it on my iPhone 4, iTouch and have a 3g iPad II).

In terms of data logging, it theoretically has the functionality to collect all the data to do polars, but I've not actually attempted that. It will take whatever data your instruments can deliver AWA, AWS, TWS, TWA, BSP.,....etc... I integrated my very simple and very ancient (Corus) instrument set, (well, just plugged it in with a USB cable), into my mac laptop loaded with MacENC and then repeated it through TCP/IP to the device. Most likely this is not the best way to do it; on occasion I would lose the link, which was annoying.

Anyway, I used it in lieu of a chartplotter pending some capital reinvestment and it worked so well, I'm wondering if I really want a chartplotter?

#11 Jambalaya

Jambalaya

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,267 posts
  • Location:UK, South East

Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:59 AM

Elegua - very interesting. The strength of the iPad Apps is they are cheap you can just try them out. On the basis of your post and having seen iNavx I'll get that to experiment (on a 2 handed offshore race my co-skipper used his iPad with iNavx to check tidal data which is represetned better than on the Raymarine ships plotter). I would always have a chartplotter and handheld GPS/plotter and regard the iPhone and iPad as backup - the main reason being durability / waterproofing and on board power.

#12 Elegua

Elegua

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Location:The country that dare not speak it's name

Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:13 AM

Try this: My link It's Cherman so it's $$; but it's Cherman, so it probably works. Oh, and while US charts are free, but UK charts must be purchased at addition $$ with a 10 US Peso purchase of an x-traverse account. Once you have the account, gribs and wave charts are free, but tides are extra....and you need an internet/wireless data connection to make that part work.....It's complicated.

#13 Pants on Fire

Pants on Fire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 160 posts
  • Location:Cape Town, South Africa

Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:48 PM

I bought the iRegatta app for $10 Have not tried it on the boat but it looks promising. It either uses the ipad (with 3g) gps or you can buy an imux from brookhouse (http://brookhouseonline.com/imux.htm) which is essentially a nmea to wifi bridge. The ipad connects into the imux wifi hotspot and you have all your nmea data going to the app.

It has 4 configurable data displays, a histogram of boat speed and vmg, configurable from 2 to 20 minutes, header/lift indicator etc. It also seems to have the ability to import a polar (.csv) file or export one from the data points it logs while running. It has basic waypoint functionality and start line end "ping" capability with countdown timer and distance to bow from ipad also configrable. If you have loaded polar info for your boat then there is a target indicator (0-100%) showing your current performance vs the polar data.

I could buy a basic 16 GB ipad, an imux and the app for not much more than another 2 line tacktic display instrument and that seems a really good way to get more tactical data displayed on the boat. Its different to needing charts like with inavx, but i already have a plotter and i need a more tactical app than a charting app.

Lifeproof.com have a really good looking ipad waterproof case coming soon and with a ram mount you would be good to go! If the iRegatta guys continue to add functionality to the app like perhaps sail selection charts (importable) and graphical displays of laylines etc they would have something really special for inshore short course racing.

#14 Blur

Blur

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 857 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:08 AM

Before you start inventing the wheel, please spend some time with Expedition, Adrena or Deckware and see what you get when the worlds best navigators spend years developing software B)

Logging is one thing. Monitoring is another. Not very hard to do. But to document, analyze and draw conclusions from massive amounts of data is another story.

If you (like me) is a Mac user, get Parallells and Expedition! Works great. Or a dedicated Mac Mini with Windows + Expedition and call it an "appliance".

On modern 40' a decent setup cost less than a small jib and will help you win races.

#15 Wet Spreaders

Wet Spreaders

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,328 posts

Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:49 PM

If you (like me) is a Mac user, get Parallells and Expedition! Works great. Or a dedicated Mac Mini with Windows + Expedition and call it an "appliance".

On modern 40' a decent setup cost less than a small jib and will help you win races.


"Less than a small jib" vs. "less than a day's crew provisions". I think that some re-invention is highly appropriate.

High tech (software) is a jungle - if you have something unique and desirable, then you can charge massive margins. If two companies have the same thing, then the price rapidly crashes down to the cost of the hardware. It's just a matter of time before someone does a decent job on the iPads, craters the price and sells a ton of software to a lot more people - perhaps even increasing the market TAM value overall. The only way for Expedition to defend this trend is to get to the low end first, innovate some "must have" feature or work some interoperability/compatibility monopoly (Microsoft model). Typically companies make the move to the low-end too late because they are in denial about the trend and can't bear to lose the revenue from the juicy margins - they milk the old product for too long. I don't see an opportunity to add a feature or a monopoly play. Basically, Expedition et al business models are fucked, in my opinion. They should implement an iPad version and Android version at low price ASAP to defend against the cheaper newcomers.

#16 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,538 posts

Posted 28 July 2011 - 02:29 PM




If you (like me) is a Mac user, get Parallells and Expedition! Works great. Or a dedicated Mac Mini with Windows + Expedition and call it an "appliance".

On modern 40' a decent setup cost less than a small jib and will help you win races.


"Less than a small jib" vs. "less than a day's crew provisions". I think that some re-invention is highly appropriate.

High tech (software) is a jungle - if you have something unique and desirable, then you can charge massive margins. If two companies have the same thing, then the price rapidly crashes down to the cost of the hardware. It's just a matter of time before someone does a decent job on the iPads, craters the price and sells a ton of software to a lot more people - perhaps even increasing the market TAM value overall. The only way for Expedition to defend this trend is to get to the low end first, innovate some "must have" feature or work some interoperability/compatibility monopoly (Microsoft model). Typically companies make the move to the low-end too late because they are in denial about the trend and can't bear to lose the revenue from the juicy margins - they milk the old product for too long. I don't see an opportunity to add a feature or a monopoly play. Basically, Expedition et al business models are fucked, in my opinion. They should implement an iPad version and Android version at low price ASAP to defend against the cheaper newcomers.


i navigate distance races - lots of coastal races, a few newport-bermuda's, and some longer races.

i own expedition, and i also own an ipad (well, it was my wife's birthday present, but i use it a lot).

i will stick with expedition for laptop - i wouldn't mind a "lite" version for ipad (i'd probably prefer a version for a windows 8 tablet - but that's another issue).

for distance racing, i would not give up my laptop version - i simply can't see doing my nav work on a tablet.

take weather for example - i'm not just downloading gribs, and giving them a glance - i study them for quite a long time - comparing different models, comparing them to the previous run, comparing them to surface analyses and surface forecasts..., considering what the changes mean..., then running optimizations under different scenarios...

i also run program's other than expedition - at the same time - expedition is clunky for georeferencing raster images, so i use another program for that..., and other programs for other things - all at the same time.

so, i have to have multiple windows open at the same time, and i like having a big screen so i can see them.

but the most important thing is that i need to be able to concentrate... ,to think about what i see..., think about what has changed, and what will happen next..., think about how to respond - and for distance races, a nav station down below, with somewhere to sit, and a decent size screen, is the best way to do this.


a big problem with the ipad (and i generally like mine) is that the file handling is just too poor - you wouldn't believe the variety of file types i deal with on a typical offshore race.

for round-the-cans, i think a lite version on a tablet (again, i wouldn't choose ipad) might be fine.

when i do round-the-cans tactics, i mostly like to keep my head out of the boat though, and don't use expedition much.

#17 Blur

Blur

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 857 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 29 July 2011 - 06:30 PM




If you (like me) is a Mac user, get Parallells and Expedition! Works great. Or a dedicated Mac Mini with Windows + Expedition and call it an "appliance".

On modern 40' a decent setup cost less than a small jib and will help you win races.


"Less than a small jib" vs. "less than a day's crew provisions". I think that some re-invention is highly appropriate.

High tech (software) is a jungle - if you have something unique and desirable, then you can charge massive margins. If two companies have the same thing, then the price rapidly crashes down to the cost of the hardware. It's just a matter of time before someone does a decent job on the iPads, craters the price and sells a ton of software to a lot more people - perhaps even increasing the market TAM value overall. The only way for Expedition to defend this trend is to get to the low end first, innovate some "must have" feature or work some interoperability/compatibility monopoly (Microsoft model). Typically companies make the move to the low-end too late because they are in denial about the trend and can't bear to lose the revenue from the juicy margins - they milk the old product for too long. I don't see an opportunity to add a feature or a monopoly play. Basically, Expedition et al business models are fucked, in my opinion. They should implement an iPad version and Android version at low price ASAP to defend against the cheaper newcomers.

Trust me, I've been in the software business for 20+ years. And basically you get what you pay for. Same as with yachts, rigs, sails and most other things in sailing (and life). And staying at the high with a solid value proposition (trying to be best) is a much better strategy then trying to be everything to everyone. Either you're Oracle. Or Apple. Can't see anyone being both.

And (as stated above) when you really start to use those systems you need lot's of compute power, good file management, SQL databases and a decent keyboard/mouse to let you manage and manipulate large ammount of data.

But I guess people have different priorities. Use the stuff that work for the pros, or wait for it to appear on your favourite gadget. For us it was pretty simple. With a huge investment in boat, sails, crew, logistics etc we were in a hurry to get upp to speed - and then the licence fee is negligable and a decent software is something that really delivers ROI in a race campaign.

That sail, we've been using iPad on the rail for every training and race for the last two seasons. But then as a waterproof repeater to our laptop below. Then we get the best of both worlds: a light mobile device + secure central data management:



#18 J24Soup

J24Soup

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,171 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR

Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:43 AM

Props for the Digital Yacht iAIS/repeater and iNAVX. AIS worked great coming out the straights of Juan de Fuca in the fog even with a temporary VHF antenna stuck on the cabin top until we could get the full installation in. Unfortunately the GPS wasn't working right to feed location, but still a great setup so far. Plan is for the laptop connected up to USB, and the iPAD via the wireless side. Dry bag works OK for the iPAD, but tough during the day and a bit of a hassle for sure. +1 for loading on the manuals and tuning guides on the iPAD for reference.

#19 Ocean View

Ocean View

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 234 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 31 July 2011 - 04:14 AM

Wet Spreaders -

A key thing you're not thinking about in regards to multiple platforms and costs is the time and effort it takes to develop an application as complex and functional as high level nav software like Expedition onto multiple platforms is an extremely time consuming and difficult to process for what is essentially a very small market.

1 x new feature = 3 times the effort or more - plus a massive increase in support needs of knowing each and every platforms - which version is - what patches are applied etc etc - supported languages, nuances of each OS - along with knowing the nav softwares capabilities / needs.

If you've ever done a bit of just simple web development and seen how hard it is to get a common look and feel just on the same browser in different versions, (let alone multiple browsers and different OS's) then you might get half an idea as to how hard it is to even consider writing good nav software for multiple platforms.

It's just not going to happen anytime soon IMHO.



#20 Wet Spreaders

Wet Spreaders

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,328 posts

Posted 31 July 2011 - 02:33 PM

Wet Spreaders -

A key thing you're not thinking about in regards to multiple platforms and costs is the time and effort it takes to develop an application as complex and functional as high level nav software like Expedition onto multiple platforms is an extremely time consuming and difficult to process for what is essentially a very small market.


The "cost" of something is not related to the "value" of something - marketing 101.

My point is that the tablets and the associated applications are already very close to the capabilities of the pc based programs. It's a matter of time before the logging and performance features (that folks are asking for in this thread) get implemented in addition to the navigation and NMEA repeating. At that point you likely have a round the cans market of a few hundred K people buying the pad version and a few thousand people worrying about offshore performance. The 100:1 market size delta is compelling. We have all seen this effect before:

1 - Early inventors grow and become entrenched, well respected, with solid market following. High prices, great feedback from customers - the party's going to last forever
2 - Folks with ideas on cost reduction come along with a worse product. New product is denigrated by the existing customer base as somehow "inadequate". Meanwhile, new, low end customer base starts to form in the shadows.
3 - New customer base grows, old product growth ramp tails off. So they add ever more esoteric features that are harder to do and fewer people need. Costs go up, instead of down
4 - World wakes up that the new cheap stuff has 95% of the features of the old stuff, is substantially cheaper and easier to use. The loyal following of the old product drops it like a bad habit and moves on.

Works for cars, software, computers, consumer electronics - pretty much any product with an elastic market. The only argument above that holds any water at all in favor of the old products in this case is that the tablet UI is more difficult because no mouse (hardware issue). But tablet developers have shown some pretty cleaver ways to manage the UI constraints so even that might get solved. I maintain my stance that Expedition needs to move key functionality to tablets or risk marginalization into the offshore routing niche.

#21 Blur

Blur

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 857 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 31 July 2011 - 08:57 PM

Wet Spreaders - I think you're overestimating the market here.

Consider instrument. B&G is "top of the line - sooon to be replaced by cheaper alternatives with 95% of the features"? Enter Tacktick, Nexus and a few others. Basically the same functions at less than half the price. But volumes are still to low and both are struggling.

90% of the market doesn't care about calibration, VMG or performance stuff.

So why should the software be different? Most serious campaigns will pay a premium for Expedition, Deckman or Adrena. Now and in 3 or 5 years.
And most people will be satisfied with showing a simple stripchart, having one generic polar or getting one GRIB file. Just for fun. Apps will be basically free.

So are there people willing to invest in apps that delivers the real deal to the people in between? Not really sure. I would love it. But I wouldn't bet on it!

So my advise is still to go with what the good projects at your club or your sailmaker's using today. At least if you want to compete with them today :D

#22 Ocean View

Ocean View

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 234 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 02 August 2011 - 12:03 PM

Wet Spreaders

Marketing 101

Porting / re-writing any app to run on multiple platforms is a pretty big task - time and investment wise.

Take that to a level of complexity of a DB, (which one) integrated charts (which ones) and using other data sources (how many do we support) - ie weather downloads etc and you've got to seriously look at the market share and market size - marketing 101 - effort required - the return on effort / investment = business 101 and is it worth it.?
I'm sure a plethora of "wind / boat speed apps will pop up like mushrooms after rain -

But that doesn't mean they are all going to be commercially viable sustainable mushroom farms that will be loved and used by everyone to get the numbers game working.


Time will tell.

#23 Jambalaya

Jambalaya

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,267 posts
  • Location:UK, South East

Posted 02 August 2011 - 12:24 PM

I think the iPad/iPhone apps will be developed on a non-commercial basis by sailors and shared for free / low cost. A smart move by the electronics companies would be to offer free apps with their branding on as advertising. It's interesting to see quite how cheap yachting charts are now for iPad / iPhone vs what we were paying just 5 years ago for plotter charts - I estimate about 1/10th of the cost

#24 Wet Spreaders

Wet Spreaders

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,328 posts

Posted 02 August 2011 - 01:47 PM

Wet Spreaders

Marketing 101

Porting / re-writing any app to run on multiple platforms is a pretty big task - time and investment wise.

Take that to a level of complexity of a DB, (which one) integrated charts (which ones) and using other data sources (how many do we support) - ie weather downloads etc and you've got to seriously look at the market share and market size - marketing 101 - effort required - the return on effort / investment = business 101 and is it worth it.?
I'm sure a plethora of "wind / boat speed apps will pop up like mushrooms after rain -


Who said anything about porting software? The usual way that this works is some small outfit does it for fun from scratch and commercializes it later. Ultimately, if Apple comes up with a sealed unit iPad with wireless charging, wireless data etc and no case penetrations, then the issue of waterproofing goes away. Suddenly the burden of having to protect a laptop from salty water and people spilling their beer in the keyboard become irrelevant - the iPad is clearly higher utility. Someone, somewhere, will market an App that does a 95% job of 95% of the features of the best PC based software and sell it cheap or give it away. 95% of racers and half serious cruiser will buy it, whether they need it or not (market expansion), and only a rarefied few will buy the expensive older product.

The world is replete with examples of how this works. The defense is to get to the low-end first (Expedition-lite) and neuter the competition, invent some killer feature that has interoperability as a strength (as Microsoft Office did) so everyone needs it to talk to everyone else, or simply reduce prices (lousy option - keep miking the loyal curmudgeons that can't/won't transition to the new technology is better). My recommendation to my company (if I was the business strategist for these guys) would be to go the Expedition Lite route and re-write the key features from scratch for the new platform. The best offensive and defensive move is to offer both high-end and "lite" versions with some interoperating feature so some folks buy both, with perhaps the routing algorithms only available for the PC.

#25 Ocean View

Ocean View

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 234 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:46 AM

Spreaders good arguments and as far as I'm concerned it's all about :- Time - Resources - Effort - Reward

I'm sure many of the existing and new apps mentioned above and several others would love to do as you suggest - can they ? - maybe - maybe not.

Therein lies the opportunity to be won or lost by new and old players in the space.

As for making a good living out of writing sailing software for pleasure race craft it's probably not the largest market in regards to finding a low cost "volume market" business model population wise.









0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users