Jump to content


1 Defender, 2 Challengers Only?


  • Please log in to reply
180 replies to this topic

#1 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:14 PM

It increasingly looks like AC 2013 will be an emaciated affair involving one defender (OR) and two challengers (AR, TNZ).

It will not be the grand multi-challenger festival requiring massive warterfront facilities and infrastructure.

I am not overly troubled by this and will still be in SF to see Dalts hoist the Cup over his head.

Even so, this is not what was promised and even slimy Bertarelli managed to find enough competitors to make a grand multi-challenger event.

I do not think Bruno and LV relish the prospect of a Vuitton "final" - without any preliminaries.

Although appealing, the AC45 has turned into a distraction and there are grave doubts about the ability of Comrade Worth to find gold at the end of the rainbow.

Having such an emaciated AC event (with 3 competitors) has plenty of historical precedents - eg. like earlier events, AC33 involved only two competitors.

What do you think?

Would you be greatly disapointed if 2013 turns into a 3-syndicate event?

And, from your perspective, how would it play out?

And what will be the reaction of the SF BOS?

Attached Files



#2 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:20 PM

It's increasingly looking like AC34 will be a robust affair with six teams competing in the Louis Vuitton challenger series to face Oracle USA.

1. Artemis.
2. Emirates
3. Aleph
4. GreenComm
5. Energy
6. Korea

It won't be the pure mano-a-mano of US vs. Switzerland traditional America's Cup contest that we saw in AC33, the greatest America's Cup race since 1851, but the AC72 winged catamarans in San Francisco Bay should be a spectacular follow on to AC33.

#3 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:43 PM

It's increasingly looking like AC34 will be a robust affair with six teams competing in the Louis Vuitton challenger series to face Oracle USA.


Yeah ... right!

#4 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,444 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:51 PM

It seems a bit premature to suggest this.



#5 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,702 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:55 PM

I will even be more iconoclast.

Do we have any hard facts that Ar is fully funded ?

TNZ can survive thanks to national money, Can the government come back on its promises ?

#6 maxmini

maxmini

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,972 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:05 PM

Works for me but the real issue will be with SF. They were promised a bill of goods that has already fallen to the minimum number projected to be deemed successful and we have a long way to go. If the AC shows up with less than 5 teams I would think some heads will roll. The high prediction was 10 teams. By any measure less than 50% is failure .

#7 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,444 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:08 PM

I will even be more iconoclast.

Do we have any hard facts that Ar is fully funded ?

TNZ can survive thanks to national money, Can the government come back on its promises ?


GD threatened to sue if they did.

#8 Finnfart

Finnfart

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,631 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:16 PM

Two challengers is one more than my preferred number.

But I'd hate to see TNZ not compete this time so two is quite OK.

Finally, as for the comparison with Bertarelli... I'd be happy to see us dispense with the circus of an elimination series stocked with non-contenders. All we were doing was running a race for the best non-viable candidate.

That being said, I think we are going to find that with the cats, the deck is thrown in the air such that everyone will have a chance... unlike in the Monos.

#9 fubaru

fubaru

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 633 posts
  • Location:Clarksdale, Ms

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:36 PM

I'm predicting that one of the French teams makes it to the CS alongside TNZ and AR.

A small CS may well be a good thing as San Francisco's venue issues are far from resolved - we may be going to Newport on short notice...

B)

#10 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:36 PM

I think AR will retire allowing Ellison to defend against ETNZ and that will leave us a great head to head without the courthouse debacle caused by GGYC last time around. ETNZ will have a great chance, once in a lifetime perhaps, of beating GGYC in virtually DoG conditions but governed by an MC protocol. The worst possible sailing outcome for Ellison. As for BoS and contracts with the taxpayer? Well ACEA tied the BoS round Ellison's little finger with a plethora of real estate deals worth a small fortune over 66 years but can the BoS sue ACEA for non-performance?

#11 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:42 PM

SF's outlay is practically nothing. Wouldn't take much for both sides to step back, in the unlikely event they did decide to consolidate everything at just P30/32 and/or P80. Would sure streamline the EIR, a big effort cut-thru too.

#12 Mephisto Cat

Mephisto Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 354 posts
  • Location:San Francisco, CA
  • Interests:Sailing, restoring old boats, restoring & driving old cars

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:47 PM

If it all goes to pot, I'll blame the crappy AC logo...

#13 ro!

ro!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,189 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:54 PM

SF's outlay is practically nothing. Wouldn't take much for both sides to step back, in the unlikely event they did decide to consolidate everything at just P30/32 and/or P80. Would sure streamline the EIR, a big effort cut-thru too.



Not so long ago you was telling us how the world superleague series could have 15 teams and 36 boats sold, the AC could have 10 teams and that the SF series would be fantastic..

Now it seems you are starting the spin up that it wouldn't be a problem for SF to have a 2 boat lv and the final as their effort and spend is nothing...

streamline..big effort cut thru...lol...

#14 Mephisto Cat

Mephisto Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 354 posts
  • Location:San Francisco, CA
  • Interests:Sailing, restoring old boats, restoring & driving old cars

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:58 PM

If it all goes to pot, I'll blame the crappy AC logo...

#15 Mephisto Cat

Mephisto Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 354 posts
  • Location:San Francisco, CA
  • Interests:Sailing, restoring old boats, restoring & driving old cars

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:59 PM

what's with the echo????

#16 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:59 PM

The biggest problem for teams still seeking sponsorship is that GGYC made so many promises about AC34 going to be the greatest ever AC that as the wheels start to fall off the wagon the whole AC34 thing starts to lose credibility with sponsors and broadcasters. This starts to make things worse for the unfunded teams and they will fall away soon because they see the writing on the wall and nobody but a fool puts good money after bad. They will take relatively small loses now rather than accumulate more costs and bang out later.

#17 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 05:02 PM


SF's outlay is practically nothing. Wouldn't take much for both sides to step back, in the unlikely event they did decide to consolidate everything at just P30/32 and/or P80. Would sure streamline the EIR, a big effort cut-thru too.



Not so long ago you was telling us how the world superleague series could have 15 teams and 36 boats sold, the AC could have 10 teams and that the SF series would be fantastic..

Now it seems you are starting the spin up that it wouldn't be a problem for SF to have a 2 boat lv and the final as their effort and spend is nothing...

streamline..big effort cut thru...lol...

Nope, what I did was point to the facts that reps from 20+ teams attended in Paris and Dubai, 15 tried to enter, 10 announced themselves.

Been pretty consistent in voicing my own opinion that 6 challs would be nice. It's not about me anyway - the poll question posed is what do other people want?

On SF well I would be fine with a streamlined venue arrangement no matter how many race the LVC. The one being proposed is almost incomprehensible in scope.

#18 ro!

ro!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,189 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 05:28 PM



SF's outlay is practically nothing. Wouldn't take much for both sides to step back, in the unlikely event they did decide to consolidate everything at just P30/32 and/or P80. Would sure streamline the EIR, a big effort cut-thru too.



Not so long ago you was telling us how the world superleague series could have 15 teams and 36 boats sold, the AC could have 10 teams and that the SF series would be fantastic..

Now it seems you are starting the spin up that it wouldn't be a problem for SF to have a 2 boat lv and the final as their effort and spend is nothing...

streamline..big effort cut thru...lol...

Nope, what I did was point to the facts that reps from 20+ teams attended in Paris and Dubai, 15 tried to enter, 10 announced themselves.

Been pretty consistent in voicing my own opinion that 6 challs would be nice. It's not about me anyway - the poll question posed is what do other people want?

On SF well I would be fine with a streamlined venue arrangement no matter how many race the LVC. The one being proposed is almost incomprehensible in scope.


For months here you and your buddies took the piss out of anyone who pointed out your wildass predictions were some what over enthusiastic and largely te spin...

what's funny is your backpedalling now... big effort cut thru indeed...

#19 katie burns

katie burns

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 619 posts
  • Location:In Your FACE

Posted 26 July 2011 - 05:32 PM

If it all goes to pot, I'll blame the crappy AC logo...



Haha, that's one way to look at it.



#20 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 05:43 PM

For months here you and your buddies took the piss out of anyone who pointed out your wildass predictions were some what over enthusiastic and largely te spin...

what's funny is your backpedalling now... big effort cut thru indeed...

That's bullshit, but keep trying to manufacture a better argument if it makes you feel good! :)

Have you tried crossing from one end of SF to another, let alone if there were 200,000 tourists in town that day? Yes I would be fine with it being more concentrated, shore-side. I don't care the money issues, it's just not my concern if they all scale back.

I agree with SWS above that it's a little premature to be discussing "2 Challengers" and therefore a necessarily smaller-footsized event instead of smaller by choice as I advocate, but whatever floats peoples' boats - lol.

Unless we hear that China did some massive about-turn then we still have 7 Challs. Too early in the game to know who might surprise.

#21 Albatros

Albatros

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,678 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 06:01 PM

what's with the echo????


given the fact that there is about a 1 minute difference between your first post and your second one, at least according to the almighty AC forum clock, given that you need at least about 1/10th of a second delay to have an echo (with sound going at about 350 m/s, at about 20 degrees Celcius, give or take a bit of deviation ...), chances of having an echo were not to be underestimated, and the distance betwen you and the AC server was certainly more than 17 odd meters B)


back to your regular program, if it turns out to be a threesome I blame evil Ernie's missus, she used to be such a hottie
:rolleyes:

#22 blakie

blakie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:14 PM

It's increasingly looking like AC34 will be a robust affair with six teams competing in the Louis Vuitton challenger series to face Oracle USA.

1. Artemis.
2. Emirates
3. Aleph
4. GreenComm
5. Energy
6. Korea

It won't be the pure mano-a-mano of US vs. Switzerland traditional America's Cup contest that we saw in AC33, the greatest America's Cup race since 1851, but the AC72 winged catamarans in San Francisco Bay should be a spectacular follow on to AC33.


listen i hate to be right but this cup cycle is looking troubled from the get go....i will go out on a limb and scratch these two teams out before the year is over....with GreenComm also quite doubtful.

it is going to take some serious $$$ influx for any of those four teams to pariticipate
or Larry banksroll another team via one of his many companies, contacts
or Jesus will be coming down to save us and go cat racing

start praying
:(

#23 blakie

blakie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:20 PM


For months here you and your buddies took the piss out of anyone who pointed out your wildass predictions were some what over enthusiastic and largely te spin...

what's funny is your backpedalling now... big effort cut thru indeed...

That's bullshit, but keep trying to manufacture a better argument if it makes you feel good! :)


really Stingray...come clean man, it will save your soul
i really would like your take on why you think (aside from money/markets down) this cycle is just not rocking?
really
event the organizers are having a tough time selling this thing
everyone was so pumped except for the critics like us....wondering whether they have asked the Dead to supply the koolaid.
i really feel like things have turned

maybe just maybe Cascais can turn this around...

#24 WetHog

WetHog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,414 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD USA

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:28 PM

In the end only two teams can compete for the right to hoist the Cup. To me, having a large number of challengers is nice, but not a necessity.

WetHog :ph34r:

#25 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:34 PM

In the end only two teams can compete for the right to hoist the Cup. To me, having a large number of challengers is nice, but not a necessity.

WetHog :ph34r:

Screeeeeech. Smoke. Smell of rubber. Wow! Wethog does the Stingray handbrake turn. Nice one mate.

#26 Dixie

Dixie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,676 posts
  • Location:SF

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:35 PM

really
event the organizers are having a tough time selling this thing
everyone was so pumped except for the critics like us....wondering whether they have asked the Dead to supply the koolaid.
i really feel like things have turned

maybe just maybe Cascais can turn this around...


YES Blakie, I sincerely hope so.

Bob brought up a good question a few days back: What defines success for the organizers?

#27 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:36 PM


really
event the organizers are having a tough time selling this thing
everyone was so pumped except for the critics like us....wondering whether they have asked the Dead to supply the koolaid.
i really feel like things have turned

maybe just maybe Cascais can turn this around...


YES Blakie, I sincerely hope so.

Bob brought up a good question a few days back: What defines success for the organizers?


LOADSA MONEY!

#28 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:44 PM

Screeeeeech. Smoke. Smell of rubber. Wow! Wethog does the Stingray handbrake turn. Nice one mate.

:)

No handbrake turn from me, been saying for months that 6 would be nice. What I am most looking forward to is the AC72's and even even if we do see only 6 to 8 of those freaks get built (and yes I do still think we will see more than that, with the first 6 by 3 teams, and with noticeable species evolutions) then that will for sure rock my ride.

Will the organizers do a screeching handbrake turn? No evidence that I can see of it watching so far. Looks like 'Stay the Course' - they will just leave Venezia in the wake and head for that start line. Crank it up!

#29 blakie

blakie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:58 PM

he is gone
the koolaid has taken him
farewell our friend



#30 blakie

blakie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:02 PM


In the end only two teams can compete for the right to hoist the Cup. To me, having a large number of challengers is nice, but not a necessity.

WetHog :ph34r:

Screeeeeech. Smoke. Smell of rubber. Wow! Wethog does the Stingray handbrake turn. Nice one mate.


i will come to WetHog's rescue
he has always stayed the course and its a Cup lover
not a hater
LVC? yep cool but not needed...he actually likes the DoG original flavor

now Stingray...he is on denial....but i know someone here will get those statement of his...about the explosion of boats and the fact that we would not be able to keep up.
even now he is saying 6
well 2 x 3 teams = 6 but you will only see 3 on the line...unless they change protocol again and let two boat testing and racing
:P
now how cool for the whole thing to be won by a B team

#31 maxmini

maxmini

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,972 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:05 PM

It seems like only a few weeks ago some posters in this thread were assuring us that having only ten mooring spots for AC 72's was not going to be a problem as more could be added. That issue no longer appears to be much of a concern.

#32 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:15 PM



really
event the organizers are having a tough time selling this thing
everyone was so pumped except for the critics like us....wondering whether they have asked the Dead to supply the koolaid.
i really feel like things have turned

maybe just maybe Cascais can turn this around...


YES Blakie, I sincerely hope so.

Bob brought up a good question a few days back: What defines success for the organizers?


LOADSA MONEY!

Since 90% of any profit goes to the competitors then... You better know they are hoping it is a commercial success too!

THutch talked recently about the goodness of sailing's sporting success being good for everyone, think it was in the WaPo interview that WH found and posted. Healthy events make for healthy teams, healthy sailors, healthy supporting industry. Hopefully this goes some way, or even a long way, down laying out that path.

LE spoke of this at the Jan 5 event in SF, said he's "giving back" to the sport in making this investment. Can't see him changing course before the first event of a 2+ year cycle. The guy has a long term view and plenty of staying power, but yes of course he would have to alter some things if everyone is broke. At that point, we'd all have a lot more serious worries than the AC anyway.

#33 Mariner

Mariner

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,479 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:19 PM



SF's outlay is practically nothing. Wouldn't take much for both sides to step back, in the unlikely event they did decide to consolidate everything at just P30/32 and/or P80. Would sure streamline the EIR, a big effort cut-thru too.



Not so long ago you was telling us how the world superleague series could have 15 teams and 36 boats sold, the AC could have 10 teams and that the SF series would be fantastic..

Now it seems you are starting the spin up that it wouldn't be a problem for SF to have a 2 boat lv and the final as their effort and spend is nothing...

streamline..big effort cut thru...lol...

Nope, what I did was point to the facts that reps from 20+ teams attended in Paris and Dubai, 15 tried to enter, 10 announced themselves.

Been pretty consistent in voicing my own opinion that 6 challs would be nice. It's not about me anyway - the poll question posed is what do other people want?

On SF well I would be fine with a streamlined venue arrangement no matter how many race the LVC. The one being proposed is almost incomprehensible in scope.



Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

#34 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:23 PM




really
event the organizers are having a tough time selling this thing
everyone was so pumped except for the critics like us....wondering whether they have asked the Dead to supply the koolaid.
i really feel like things have turned

maybe just maybe Cascais can turn this around...


YES Blakie, I sincerely hope so.

Bob brought up a good question a few days back: What defines success for the organizers?


LOADSA MONEY!

Since 90% of any profit goes to the competitors then... You better know they are hoping it is a commercial success too!

THutch talked recently about the goodness of sailing's sporting success being good for everyone, think it was in the WaPo interview that WH found and posted. Healthy events make for healthy teams, healthy sailors, healthy supporting industry. Hopefully this goes some way, or even a long way, down laying out that path.

LE spoke of this at the Jan 5 event in SF, said he's "giving back" to the sport in making this investment. Can't see him changing course before the first event of a 2+ year cycle. The guy has a long term view and plenty of staying power, but yes of course he would have to alter some things if everyone is broke. At that point, we'd all have a lot more serious worries than the AC anyway.


Get real man. If the current challengers would all share 90% of all the profit from AC related deals then they would not be looking for sponsors. They could go to any bank and say look we are invested in the AC as challengers and our portfolio includes x% of 90% of the profit from all these downtown SF shoreside real estate deals for the next 66 years and any profit from AC34 and 35 and the whole deal is underwritten by Ellison and the banks would be all over them like a rash to lend money. Easy. So what's the problem? Challengers too stupid to read the small print?

#35 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:23 PM

Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

There's for sure an extra boat now in Cascais, wish someone could snap it up in time for September in Plymouth. Might even be cheap!

#36 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:25 PM


Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

There's for sure an extra boat now in Cascais, wish someone could snap it up in time for September in Plymouth. Might even be cheap!

Not if your name's Ellison

#37 maxmini

maxmini

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,972 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:30 PM


Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

There's for sure an extra boat now in Cascais, wish someone could snap it up in time for September in Plymouth. Might even be cheap!



I think there was a AC45 just listed on Craigs list, I'll have to get back to you :)

#38 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:32 PM

Get real man. If the current challengers would all share 90% of all the profit from AC related deals then they would not be looking for sponsors. They could go to any bank and say look we are invested in the AC as challengers and our portfolio includes x% of 90% of the profit from all these downtown SF shoreside real estate deals for the next 66 years and any profit from AC34 and 35 and the whole deal is underwritten by Ellison and the banks would be all over them like a rash to lend money. Easy. So what's the problem? Challengers too stupid to read the small print?

The way I see it, there would be no event for them to hopefully share in the profit of, if it weren't for LE somehow staging it. They get the stage without having to worry about waiting for decades to find out if those piers ever paid back, heck LE will be long gone by then too and might as well will it to the city if he can't unload it to some other fool. Nobody else has gone for it, I suspect SF would want him to press forward even if the Cup did go into a 10 year depression hiatus.

#39 josselin

josselin

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 149 posts
  • Location:Dubai / France (Brittany)

Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:46 PM

The shame with this lack of challenger is also to know that if the Ac33 had not been so long, Groupama woudl have straight invested fr the Ac34 instead of 2VOR. And that cammas and his team would have had all the card in hand to be competitive straigh out of the dock ( ORMA60 & X40 experience, 3 multis developped with VPLP, a nice base in Lorient...). And a really challenger against OR , AR &TZ
Energy team is late and they are trying to get some fallout from cascais to convince further investors... will they succeed? if not i also foresee 2 challengers only.:(

#40 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:02 PM


Get real man. If the current challengers would all share 90% of all the profit from AC related deals then they would not be looking for sponsors. They could go to any bank and say look we are invested in the AC as challengers and our portfolio includes x% of 90% of the profit from all these downtown SF shoreside real estate deals for the next 66 years and any profit from AC34 and 35 and the whole deal is underwritten by Ellison and the banks would be all over them like a rash to lend money. Easy. So what's the problem? Challengers too stupid to read the small print?

The way I see it, there would be no event for them to hopefully share in the profit of, if it weren't for LE somehow staging it. They get the stage without having to worry about waiting for decades to find out if those piers ever paid back, heck LE will be long gone by then too and might as well will it to the city if he can't unload it to some other fool. Nobody else has gone for it, I suspect SF would want him to press forward even if the Cup did go into a 10 year depression hiatus.

So what does Ellison take? 90% of the profit or 10%?

#41 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,702 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:04 PM

^^^^
SR you made my day ! :)

"I am happy with 15 teams and 36 boats

I am happy with 15 boats

I am happy with 9 boats

I am happy with 6 boats

I am happy with ...

I am happy with AC72 "

#42 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:07 PM

^^^^
SR you made my day ! :)

"I am happy with 15 teams and 36 boats

I am happy with 15 boats

I am happy with 9 boats

I am happy with 6 boats

I am happy with ...

I am happy with AC72 "

Stingray will be happy with a rubber duck in his bath so long as it has the OR logo on it.




#43 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:08 PM

So what does Ellison take? 90% of the profit or 10%?

Whatever piers he takes leases on is separate from the ACEA money. The ACEA bottom line profit, if any, is what gets split (something like) 10% to ACEA and 90% to the teams. And I think that the ACEA balance would carry forward if the next Defender chooses to keep the entity; or else the last 10% also gets split. But then I suspect you knew that..

The land investment will take a looong time before any of can know how that worked out, unless he can flip it fast for a profit and someone else try?

#44 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:11 PM


So what does Ellison take? 90% of the profit or 10%?

Whatever piers he takes l;eases on is separate from the ACEA money. The ACEA bottom line profit, if any, is what gets split (something like) 10% to ACEA and 90% to the teams. And I think that the ACEA balance would carry forward if the next Defender chooses to keep the entity; or else the last 10% also gets split. But then I suspect you knew that..

The land investment will take a looong time before any of can know how that worked out, unless he can flip it fast for a profit and someone else try?

If Ellison used ACEA to front the real estate deals surely the profits or loses of these deals must belong to the ACEA beneficiaries?

#45 jc172528

jc172528

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,781 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:13 PM

It increasingly looks like AC 2013 will be an emaciated affair involving one defender (OR) and two challengers (AR, TNZ).

Would you be greatly disapointed if 2013 turns into a 3-syndicate event?

And, from your perspective, how would it play out?


Disappointed? Not really. However it would show that the AC72 as class was an utter failure both in terms of 'promoting the sport' and to 'increase participation'.
Yes the AC is at the sharp end of techno game but at the same time if only 3-4 people on the planet can afford to play what's he point.

How would it play out? I suspect TNZ will have developed some bit of techno that is close to the rule and AR and OR would repeatedly protest the legally/measurement (similar to the bow spirit issue from days of old).







#46 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:25 PM

If Ellison used ACEA to front the real estate deals surely the profits or loses of these deals must belong to the ACEA beneficiaries?

You can argue it should be until you're blue in the face, but that is not how it is set up. And again, the Port is thrilled even though they stand to gain nothing from it, the damn piers are nothing but an albatross to them with the way things stand, they keep saying it. That's why I think they'd press for that deal even if there were no AC - he doesn;t need the 'front' - but he does have a need since SF had nothing usable to just lend for AC use.

We've been thru this how many times? Yawn.. Lol.. (a lot of) time will tell. I just don't buy that he's into this for profit, he makes money a lot faster with it invested elsewhere instead. If he ~were~ guaranteed a profit, and even if you just speculate he will eventually make one, then that's when you have to look to see if he's hardwired the rules unfairly, with further profit in another AC cycle as the motivation for doing so. Am not seeing any problems in that direction with ACRM's independence, although I suppose there will be plenty of shit-fighting in the house once the rubber really meets the road.

#47 Dixie

Dixie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,676 posts
  • Location:SF

Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:06 PM

A quick point of order "Flip" usually refers to owned property.

These piers are owned by the Port of San Francisco who've extended the leases to the then called "Event Authority" in exchange for the rebuild / build up of the piers for 66 years. Given that the EA goes away after 34 (unless extended) I am not sure who actually is the official tenant post-34. I'm sure someone here knows.

Were they to want to Sublet space, well that's another ball o wax.

#48 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:17 PM

A quick point of order "Flip" usually refers to owned property.

These piers are owned by the Port of San Francisco who've extended the leases to the then called "Event Authority" in exchange for the rebuild / build up of the piers for 66 years. Given that the EA goes away after 34 (unless extended) I am not sure who actually is the official tenant post-34. I'm sure someone here knows.

Were they to want to Sublet space, well that's another ball o wax.

Can't remember that detail either. Agreed, it is that entity that would have to 'flip the lease' if such a thing is possible. At the smaller press conf after the Jan 5 City Hall addresses, think you said you were there, he did take a question about what he might do with a pier and he did speak about some ideas; which suggests maybe he does intend to do it himself.

A curious facet in all of that part is how if he Defends successfully, then it seems to postpone his ability to start recouping anything. In other words, if short term profit were a motive then he'd just lose the cursed Cup asap and start building. The logic works against him rigging rules to win, for any profit motive.

#49 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,994 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:25 PM


Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

There's for sure an extra boat now in Cascais, wish someone could snap it up in time for September in Plymouth. Might even be cheap!


There are at least two non-entered teams that are carefully watching the situation...

#50 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:29 PM



Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

There's for sure an extra boat now in Cascais, wish someone could snap it up in time for September in Plymouth. Might even be cheap!


There are at least two non-entered teams that are carefully watching the situation...

Is it ACAlphabet Soup time, or can we just start at the top? ;)

#51 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,622 posts

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:06 PM



Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

There's for sure an extra boat now in Cascais, wish someone could snap it up in time for September in Plymouth. Might even be cheap!


There are at least two non-entered teams that are carefully watching the situation...



Hmmmm,

Luna
Synergy
Alinghi
All-4-One
Rothchilde
Oman
. . .

#52 WetHog

WetHog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,414 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD USA

Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:16 PM


In the end only two teams can compete for the right to hoist the Cup. To me, having a large number of challengers is nice, but not a necessity.

WetHog :ph34r:

Screeeeeech. Smoke. Smell of rubber. Wow! Wethog does the Stingray handbrake turn. Nice one mate.


No hand brake turn from me. I have been cautiously optimistic and skeptical all rolled into one as soon as OR's plans for AC34 were announced. But nice try.

WetHog :ph34r:

#53 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 12:37 AM

In the end only two teams can compete for the right to hoist the Cup. To me, having a large number of challengers is nice, but not a necessity.

WetHog


Exactly. Two boats enter one boat leaves. Anything else is optional equipment. Funny part is the high bar is set for AC34 by those opposed to the cats, wings and San Francisco venue. If AC45 series has three or four races, it's a no never mind in regard to the AC34 and the Cup races but the Alinghhi dead enders will claim the world is ending.

1 Defender. 2 Challengers describes 20% of Louis Vuitton and 100% of America's Cup and 100% of what would be a TV broadcast of the event.

#54 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,534 posts
  • Location:33.98.n 118.45. w

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:17 AM

I think AR will retire allowing Ellison to defend against ETNZ and that will leave us a great head to head without the courthouse debacle caused by GGYC last time around. ETNZ will have a great chance, once in a lifetime perhaps, of beating GGYC in virtually DoG conditions but governed by an MC protocol. The worst possible sailing outcome for Ellison. As for BoS and contracts with the taxpayer? Well ACEA tied the BoS round Ellison's little finger with a plethora of real estate deals worth a small fortune over 66 years but can the BoS sue ACEA for non-performance?



sf has no binding ''deal '' with oracakle or evilsin or ggyc

but if they did

sf can sue acea and ggyc



AFFIRMATION OF AGREEMENT BY GOLDEN GATE YACHT CLUB
The Golden Gate Yacht Club affirms that it: (i) is the present trustee under the terms of
the Deed of Gift governing the America's Cup; (ii) is authorized to select the venue for
the 34th America's Cup under the terms of a Protocol Governing the 34th America's Cup
agreed between the Golden Gate Yacht Club and Club Nautico di Roma; (iii) has
authorized,

on its behalf, the America's Cup Event Authority to enter into the foregoing
Host City and Venue Agreement with the City and County of San Francisco and the San
Francisco America’s Cup Organizing Committee;

(iv) in connection with any dissolution
or liquidation of the America’s Cup Event Authority it will cause the America’s Cup
Event Authority to assign its rights and delegate its duties under the Host City and Venue
Agreement to the Golden Gate Yacht Club or its nominee,

which shall accept such rights
and assume such obligations pursuant to Section 19.3 of the Host City and Venue
Agreement; and (v) will exercise sole discretion in selecting the venue for the 34th
America's Cup contemplated by said Agreement and by the Protocol

http://www.oewd.org/...CA 11.10.11.pdf



19.7 If any provision, or any part of any provision, of this Agreement shall be
held to be invalid, illegal or unenforceable: (i) such provision, or such part, shall be
severed without effect to the remainder of the provisions, and the remainder of such
provision, which shall continue in full force and effect; and (ii) the parties shall
immediately commence good faith negotiations to remedy such invalidity, illegality or
unenforceability through the substitution of a valid, legal and enforceable provision, or
part of a provision, which achieves, to the greatest extent possible, the economic, legal
and commercial objectives of the invalid or unenforceable provision, or part thereof.



19.8 This Agreement may not be varied, amended or modified except by an
agreement in writing expressed to be a variation, amendment or modification of this
Agreement signed by a duly authorized representative of each party




#55 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,444 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:24 AM


I think AR will retire allowing Ellison to defend against ETNZ and that will leave us a great head to head without the courthouse debacle caused by GGYC last time around. ETNZ will have a great chance, once in a lifetime perhaps, of beating GGYC in virtually DoG conditions but governed by an MC protocol. The worst possible sailing outcome for Ellison. As for BoS and contracts with the taxpayer? Well ACEA tied the BoS round Ellison's little finger with a plethora of real estate deals worth a small fortune over 66 years but can the BoS sue ACEA for non-performance?



sf has no binding ''deal '' with oracakle or evilsin or ggyc

but if they did

sf can sue acea and ggyc

And if if's and but's were candy and nuts we'll all have a Merry Christmas. So what.

Are you on Grant's legal payroll yet, or is he sitting back and laughing his ass off at your incesant babbling ?

#56 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,534 posts
  • Location:33.98.n 118.45. w

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:43 AM

sw soiler

fyi

I finally got to meet and talk with america's cup winner

I had lunch with Dennis Conners today


so maybe meeting with DALTS isnt out of the picture

for me

but dont worry

ggyc has nothing to lose

literally NOTHING

sf fuasco is a well done [ stick a fork in it ] train wreck

#57 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:50 AM

In the end only two teams can compete for the right to hoist the Cup. To me, having a large number of challengers is nice, but not a necessity.

I have been cautiously optimistic and skeptical all rolled into one as soon as OR's plans for AC34 were announced.


Interesting how exciting AC33 was because there were no preliminaries and no one knew how the boats would perform.

Even though it was only a two boat series and just two races, a great America's Cup.

I'd be happy with Artemis and Oracle just having the America's Cup. If there's a two boat or four boat Louis Vuitton, that's fine. I only watched the LV Cup races when it was about a US entry trying to be the Challenger.

#58 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 27 July 2011 - 04:21 AM

Hey Eagles, have you looked thru the early photos and that first video from Cascais?

Am thinking maybe they should just hold the AC there?

#59 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 04:34 AM

Hey Eagles, have you looked thru the early photos and that first video from Cascais?

Am thinking maybe they should just hold the AC there?


If you mean that helicopter view via Google Earth, we were not amused. Video was "cool" if one had never played around with Google Earth but they didn't even show an overlay of the course. Cool would have been superimposing graphics of two boats racing the course over a Google Earth map.

Hold AC in Cascais? Please...my chain is a bit long for that short pull.

New website is starting to piss me off. It has LESS info than the first version. Take Louis Vuitton for example. A one page blurb vs. providing the history of the LV, links to past LV's, links to analysis articles like Fisher's on advantage LV provides.

Discover, News, Teams as main menu items is too minimalist. Nothing on the history of the America's Cup or links to that info outside if they are not going to provide it.

#60 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:00 AM

You're right, it could be deeper.

Also right, was just yanking your chain. But that GE video is I think enhanced, notice the modeling of the buildings in 3D, even the trees have good detail. I think they did the course map based on a frame from right out of this model. It's also possible this will meld into the production in some way, even the tents are prepositioned. Not bad, to whoever has been building that out already, makes me think Plymouth is getting a GE enhanced model readied too. The GGB ought to be awesome as a flythrough when that day comes.

#61 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:08 AM

You're right, it could be deeper.

Also right, was just yanking your chain. But that GE video is I think enhanced, notice the modeling of the buildings in 3D, even the trees have good detail. I think they did the course map based on a frame from right out of this model. It's also possible this will meld into the production in some way, even the tents are prepositioned. Not bad, to whoever has been building that out already, makes me think Plymouth is getting a GE enhanced model readied too. The GGB ought to be awesome as a flythrough when that day comes.


Other than the waves, didn't look like much more than a Google Earth 3D fly around. To do all that and NOT SHOW THE RACE COURSE just made no sense.

#62 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,444 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:23 AM

sw soiler

fyi

I finally got to meet and talk with america's cup winner

I had lunch with Dennis Conners today

Hey Kimosabe,

That's great, and thanks for all the interesting details you provided (like none).

I think you should have lunch with GD several times a week if not more frequently, maybe dinner too, but why set your sites so low ? Maybe you can have dinner with Obama or the pope.

Thanks again for all the inputs :P we'd be lost without them.

#63 Koukel

Koukel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 936 posts
  • Location:Portland, Oregon
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:54 AM

I had lunch with Dennis Conners today

Did you speak in small letters or capitals?

Koukel

#64 Indio

Indio

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,712 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:31 AM

It increasingly looks like AC 2013 will be an emaciated affair involving one defender (OR) and two challengers (AR, TNZ).

It will not be the grand multi-challenger festival requiring massive warterfront facilities and infrastructure.

I am not overly troubled by this and will still be in SF to see Dalts hoist the Cup over his head.

Even so, this is not what was promised and even slimy Bertarelli managed to find enough competitors to make a grand multi-challenger event.

I do not think Bruno and LV relish the prospect of a Vuitton "final" - without any preliminaries.

Although appealing, the AC45 has turned into a distraction and there are grave doubts about the ability of Comrade Worth to find gold at the end of the rainbow.

Having such an emaciated AC event (with 3 competitors) has plenty of historical precedents - eg. like earlier events, AC33 involved only two competitors.

What do you think?

Would you be greatly disapointed if 2013 turns into a 3-syndicate event?

And, from your perspective, how would it play out?

And what will be the reaction of the SF BOS?


I've stated all along that AC34 will involve the two challengers Artemis Racing and ETNZ fighting out the LV CSS, and the defender Oracle Racing. Larry is deeply concerned about the perceived cosy relationship between Coutts and his WSL co-conspirator Cayard, and how this impacts on his credibility given the massive clusterfuck the ACWSL45 series is turning into. Anything other than an OR-ETNZ AC34 match is a monumental credibility problem which Larry does not want.

ACEA's overselling of the ACWSL to SF and to the sailing world, hyped-up optimism on the number of challengers and sponsors, absence of any credible media agreements, etc etc would be areas of concern to Larry. I doubt if we'll see any ACWSL in 2012..

#65 va bene

va bene

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts
  • Location:Munich, Germany

Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:37 AM



Get real man. If the current challengers would all share 90% of all the profit from AC related deals then they would not be looking for sponsors. They could go to any bank and say look we are invested in the AC as challengers and our portfolio includes x% of 90% of the profit from all these downtown SF shoreside real estate deals for the next 66 years and any profit from AC34 and 35 and the whole deal is underwritten by Ellison and the banks would be all over them like a rash to lend money. Easy. So what's the problem? Challengers too stupid to read the small print?

The way I see it, there would be no event for them to hopefully share in the profit of, if it weren't for LE somehow staging it. They get the stage without having to worry about waiting for decades to find out if those piers ever paid back, heck LE will be long gone by then too and might as well will it to the city if he can't unload it to some other fool. Nobody else has gone for it, I suspect SF would want him to press forward even if the Cup did go into a 10 year depression hiatus.

So what does Ellison take? 90% of the profit or 10%?

Money, for sure, is something Ellison does not have to worry about. He has plenty of it and is making way more with his companies than he ever could dream of making through the AC. Moneywise, AC is peanuts for him. In regard to the AC Ellison is certainly driven by other aspects.

#66 Xlot

Xlot

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,673 posts
  • Location:Rome

Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:51 AM

So what does Ellison take? 90% of the profit or 10%?


50% or so of the 90% IIRC, real estate deals aside

#67 blakie

blakie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:51 AM

The shame with this lack of challenger is also to know that if the Ac33 had not been so long, Groupama woudl have straight invested fr the Ac34 instead of 2VOR. And that cammas and his team would have had all the card in hand to be competitive straigh out of the dock ( ORMA60 & X40 experience, 3 multis developped with VPLP, a nice base in Lorient...). And a really challenger against OR , AR &TZ
Energy team is late and they are trying to get some fallout from cascais to convince further investors... will they succeed? if not i also foresee 2 challengers only.:(



Great point...although a little flawed because Cammas/Groupama were already deep into Volvo program by the time AC33 was even decided....so the timing does not make it or break it. actually you could argue that if any team was smart they would hire him to come and be on his team right behind Volvo Race ala Torben Grael style. He is an asset that any team would want....that's the problem with calendars and too many events.
you got to pick and choose and that had already beenn done.
but what a concept to get Groupaman or other teams involved....but noboby has. why not? that's the question.

#68 blakie

blakie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 550 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:57 AM




Still 3 unnannounced teams out there... when we gonna hear about them?

There's for sure an extra boat now in Cascais, wish someone could snap it up in time for September in Plymouth. Might even be cheap!


There are at least two non-entered teams that are carefully watching the situation...



Hmmmm,

Luna
Synergy
Alinghi
All-4-One
Rothchilde
Oman
. . .


i am torn about this....in one way we want the field to be healthy and competitive. on the other hand if the Defender keeps changing the rules well they keep loosing credibility and pissing other challengers off.

so what are you saying? that now they will make a boat or two or three avaialable for a charter fee to a team say from the ESS series?
what wouldn't you have done that with Venezia then?
why stick it to them that were legit and trying hard to come with the $$$?
that is what pisses me off
the different standards

they did it to the Latinos....they could have probably play within these rules but nobody told them about it
and after they folded then the changes came

are we having the same?
give the financial relief to your current players i say....and then maybe it will attract even more

you could have save face and not even tell anybody....come with a sponsor from another Larry company.
doesn't he own like a bunch of other technology mega billion entities?
doesn't he have a bunch of friends in board rooms around the world?
it would only take an afternoon of calls....and every team there would have a major sponsor.

that is what i don't understand....unless the format/commercial viable cup does not exist
:D

#69 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:04 PM

I've stated all along that AC34 will involve the two challengers Artemis Racing and ETNZ fighting out the LV CSS, and the defender Oracle Racing.


Wow! You predicted the defender would be Oracle Racing? And that the top two challengers would be the top two challengers? Wow! Just Wow!. Next would be "Sunrise predicted for dawn tomorrow"?

AC34 has a much higher bar to entry than the old monohull races where a team could buy an old AC boat for scrap value, paint it and voila...America's Cup Challenger.

In AC34, challengers are looking at probably $50M to just wave the flag and $100M for serious run at it and $200M to cover all the bases. The boats are brand new, you can't go buy an old one ready to sail. It's a daunting task.

Given all that, AC34 looks to show up in San Francisco for the Louis Vuitton with at least four competitors, Aleph, Artemis, Emirates and Greecom and a good shot at six, Energy and Korea.

End of the day, AC34 only needs one challenger for the America's Cup. People get lost in the various schemes of ACTS and World Series and other attempts to create some kind of perpetual regatta series out the America's Cup, something doomed to failure without destroying the America's Cup which, at its core, is about evolution of sailboat design from America to the early pre-WWII competitors. Next was San Diego with monohull and multhull innovations. Next was AC33 in the purest America's Cup since 1851.

Ellison should have simply left the challenge open and started building a trimaran that could win a race in the ocean off of San Fransisco. Paraded USA17 around SF Bay for PR and waited for an true America's Cup challenge.

But that is the purest view and AC34 gets high mark for trying to find a compromise between the no limits, nation vs. nation tradition of the America's Cup and the need to offer a three years of racing so sponsors are attracted to greater exposure of their products. End of the day, it is still a billionaires boat race and even billionaires are having problems in these times of economic chaos with nations going bankrupt and a lunatic fringe in the US holding world financial markets hostage. Not a time that corporate boards are going to approve of $200M lost on the chairman's hobby.

#70 Albatros

Albatros

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,678 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:05 PM

rethorical question of the day to all those tossing names around of teams you would think they might join ; why would they join ? what's in it for them at this stage, at least if they would be serious about it and not in it for 15 minutes of SA-AC glory ?

#71 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:17 PM

rethorical question of the day to all those tossing names around of teams you would think they might join ; why would they join ?


Same things as always, billionaire sailing fan wants to win America's Cup. Bertarelli, Ellison, Tornqvist, De Leo, Wang, Cho or sailing professional wants to get the capstone to his sailing career, Dalton, Peyron, Pace and organizes backers.

#72 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,702 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:41 PM

[quote name='GauchoGreg' timestamp='1311721560' post='3345574']


Hmmmm,

Luna
Synergy
Alinghi
All-4-One
Rothchilde
Oman


If some, like me, could still a very small hope regarding All-4-One, I think it is gone. I was a few hours ago in a restaurant close to ODK, he is not in Cascais and I could not see any people of All4One around.
ODK is not the nicest bloke, not the best racer, but a courageous sailor with a long resumé.
He looked more interested by the quality of the wine an oysters than by the AC.

Rothschild or Bernard Arnauld would be formidble opponents to Larry but time is running out....

#73 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,622 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:52 PM

If some, like me, could still a very small hope regarding All-4-One, I think it is gone. I was a few hours ago in a restaurant close to ODK, he is not in Cascais and I could not see any people of All4One around.
ODK is not the nicest bloke, not the best racer, but a courageous sailor with a long resumé.
He looked more interested by the quality of the wine an oysters than by the AC.

Rothschild or Bernard Arnauld would be formidble opponents to Larry but time is running out....


No wait for an AC45. You can simply buy and sail away from the dealership. Already have a skipper and team ready with Mirsky. And I'm sure VC's engineering team in Italy and UCLA have already largely finished their designs for the AC72, so a new participant would have that going for them. Hit the ground running
:D

#74 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:06 PM

I had lunch with Dennis Conner today




Any chance he will buy a cheap AC45 and get into the game?

Would be great if he did.

#75 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,622 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:15 PM


I had lunch with Dennis Conner today




Any chance he will buy a cheap AC45 and get into the game?

Would be great if he did.


Maybe have MSP join him and call it the Mahguah Challenge.

#76 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:17 PM

Honourable ladies and gentlemen,

After 70-or-so posts, it seems as if there are few grave concerns about the possibility AC34 will be an emaciated (probably three-syndicate affair).

Even though they had no chance, I enjoyed Shosholoza and other B-movie outfits in VLC.

But, if SF boils down to a titanic struggle between OR, Artemis and TNZ, it is alright for me.

Means the unwashed proletariat will not have to camp out in SF for a long period of time.

Thus far, this has been an interesting thread.

There is plenty of "he said this, he said that". But no major misgivings about the slimmed down nature of AC34.

Am I reading this correctly?

Besides, the sooner we get the trophy back to Aotearoa and into the hands of people who know how to organize a major international sailing regatta, the better off we (and the event) will be.

#77 maxmini

maxmini

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,972 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:30 PM



I had lunch with Dennis Conner today




Any chance he will buy a cheap AC45 and get into the game?

Would be great if he did.


I think DC is way to smart to get involved in this, besides he has " been there and won that " already :)

#78 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:30 PM

Means the unwashed proletariat will not have to camp out in SF for a long period of time.


Proletariat are not involved in the America's Cup.

There are the 2,000,000 SF tourists but they are middle to upper income, many from overseas, spending thousands to visit SF.

There there are the upper income folks who would spend $10,000 coming to San Francisco just for Cup, maybe 100,000 additional SF tourists.

There are the 10,000,000 who will watch via their computers and $1K a year cable or satellite connections, most willing to sacrifice a Starbucks latte or two ($10) for software subscription for the AC web broadcast.

Few interested in the challenger, Louis Vuitton races unless one is rooting for one of teams.

Most interested in the championship match, the America's Cup races.

10 weeks overall with 4 weeks for sure and the other 6 dependent on final number of challengers. If LV is shortened to 2 weeks the other six weeks can be filled up with AC45 races, do a Youth America's Cup series or other creative event. All you need is the SF Bay filled with flashy, high tech catamarans screaming around the Bay, waving the AC34 flag.

#79 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:32 PM

"1 Def, 2 Challs - Would it be OK With You?"

As different fans we may have different perspectives than from different sailors, builders, sailmakers, sponsors, from Larry, etc, etc. But here's a question:

Would '"1 Def, 2 Challs" be the preferred route by GD/ETNZ? Cut straight to the chase, without an extended CSS series to fine tune the skills, fine tune the boat, before facing the Defender?

#80 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:44 PM

Would '"1 Def, 2 Challs" be the preferred route by GD/ETNZ? Cut straight to the chase, without an extended CSS series to fine tune the skills, fine tune the boat, before facing the Defender?



I have no idea what GD thinks about this.

Although I expect he would prefer a more typical elimination series.

So as to get kinks out and better prepare sailors for the face-off with OR.

Although I am predicting that, as usual, the LVC will be more edgy, closer and better than the AC match.

This is how it usually plays out.

The AC match is usually a 5-nil white (or black) wash.

Whereas the LVC is usually a nail-biter (e.g. AmericaOne versus Prada, Akld, 2000).

For this reason, I would encourage people to be in SF for the LVC final.

As for the AC, it will probably be determined by broken-gear.

The team with the boat that stays together wins the trophy.

#81 EaglesPDX

EaglesPDX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,616 posts
  • Interests:BOC Challenge 90-91, 94-95, Around Alone 98, Whitbread 93-94, 97-98, America's Cup 2000.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:44 PM

"1 Def, 2 Challs - Would it be OK With You?"

As different fans we may have different perspectives than from different sailors, builders, sailmakers, sponsors, from Larry, etc, etc. But here's a question:

Would '"1 Def, 2 Challs" be the preferred route by GD/ETNZ? Cut straight to the chase, without an extended CSS series to fine tune the skills, fine tune the boat, before facing the Defender?


Fisher's analysis suggests ANY competitive racing helps the winner of the competition vs Oracle who will not have that advantage.

The newly truncated, information short AC website doesn't mention it but aren't there supposed to be AC72 races that do include Oracle prior to the Louis Vuitton? If so, this takes away a lot of the competitive testing edge the challengers get with the Louis Vuitton series.

#82 Rennmaus

Rennmaus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,756 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 04:54 PM

We've got a couple of viable challengers, some more "fleet-fillers", all in all not as many as desired resp. promised initially, but so what? It's still good enough to have a cool AC with a working LVC, especially under these economic circumstances.

I am highly critical of AC34 as you know, but I don't worry whether there are two more or less teams competing. At the moment (!) it still looks like a lot of fun for sailing enthusiasts.

#83 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:11 PM

We've got a couple of viable challengers, some more "fleet-fillers", all in all not as many as desired resp. promised initially, but so what? It's still good enough to have a cool AC with a working LVC, especially under these economic circumstances.

I am highly critical of AC34 as you know, but I don't worry whether there are two more or less teams competing. At the moment (!) it still looks like a lot of fun for sailing enthusiasts.

Am feeling more envious by the minute, of your coming trip to Cascais! I hope you post to us from there?

#84 Rennmaus

Rennmaus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,756 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:29 PM

^
I will not be the only Anarchist there, others arrive way before me and hopefully will give good records of the ongoings. Yes, I'm looking forward to it too, and it's a shame that you are staying away.

#85 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,622 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:32 PM

We've got a couple of viable challengers, some more "fleet-fillers", all in all not as many as desired resp. promised initially, but so what? It's still good enough to have a cool AC with a working LVC, especially under these economic circumstances.

I am highly critical of AC34 as you know, but I don't worry whether there are two more or less teams competing. At the moment (!) it still looks like a lot of fun for sailing enthusiasts.



Damn it all. You always have to come in and ruin everything with a grounded, reasonable post.

#86 maxmini

maxmini

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,972 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:00 PM


We've got a couple of viable challengers, some more "fleet-fillers", all in all not as many as desired resp. promised initially, but so what? It's still good enough to have a cool AC with a working LVC, especially under these economic circumstances.

I am highly critical of AC34 as you know, but I don't worry whether there are two more or less teams competing. At the moment (!) it still looks like a lot of fun for sailing enthusiasts.



Damn it all. You always have to come in and ruin everything with a grounded, reasonable post.


Ya , damn party pooper! Have fun take lots of pics :)

#87 Stingray

Stingray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,999 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:32 PM

Ya , damn party pooper! Have fun take lots of pics :)

One of the many fun things I'd like to see pics of is you playing the 'Racing Simulator' in Location 3 at the pic in here if it's actually a cool gizmo. Make sure you have your AnChall shirt on for that one :)

#88 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,702 posts

Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:55 PM

If some, like me, could still a very small hope regarding All-4-One, I think it is gone. I was a few hours ago in a restaurant close to ODK, he is not in Cascais and I could not see any people of All4One around.
ODK is not the nicest bloke, not the best racer, but a courageous sailor with a long resumé.
He looked more interested by the quality of the wine an oysters than by the AC.

Rothschild or Bernard Arnauld would be formidble opponents to Larry but time is running out....


No wait for an AC45. You can simply buy and sail away from the dealership. Already have a skipper and team ready with Mirsky. And I'm sure VC's engineering team in Italy and UCLA have already largely finished their designs for the AC72, so a new participant would have that going for them. Hit the ground running
:D

Right, best deal for an entry in the AC, boat assembled and team included !

#89 Xlot

Xlot

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,673 posts
  • Location:Rome

Posted 02 August 2011 - 09:21 PM

Bump, so it'll be at hand when Cascais is over.

Meanwhile ..

^^ (Portuguese TV newsclip) : 60M spectators worldwide, half a million Euros investment with ten times as much expected return ..



#90 davidprobable

davidprobable

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,060 posts
  • Location:upper canada
  • Interests:classic collectible sailing and restoring , confronting the silly.

Posted 05 August 2011 - 05:01 PM

These posts are all back in July..........you have missed the current evisceration of the stock markets and the potential wipe out of TNZ government support due to panic over Euro Zone implosions. I suggest this extravaganza is moving to LE and LE and that's it. Artemis and TNZ will fold after playing with their 45's. LE will build two 72's and lend one to either AR or TNZ and that will be it. SF will say later for this BS and it will move to Newport. Thus spake..................

#91 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,622 posts

Posted 05 August 2011 - 05:18 PM

These posts are all back in July..........you have missed the current evisceration of the stock markets and the potential wipe out of TNZ government support due to panic over Euro Zone implosions. I suggest this extravaganza is moving to LE and LE and that's it. Artemis and TNZ will fold after playing with their 45's. LE will build two 72's and lend one to either AR or TNZ and that will be it. SF will say later for this BS and it will move to Newport. Thus spake..................


Nice try, troll.

#92 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 05 August 2011 - 07:31 PM


These posts are all back in July..........you have missed the current evisceration of the stock markets and the potential wipe out of TNZ government support due to panic over Euro Zone implosions. I suggest this extravaganza is moving to LE and LE and that's it. Artemis and TNZ will fold after playing with their 45's. LE will build two 72's and lend one to either AR or TNZ and that will be it. SF will say later for this BS and it will move to Newport. Thus spake..................


Nice try, troll.


Actually no. He may not be correct in his estimation of the future for AC34 but he is correct that the idiotic prevarication of the US government has spooked the world markets. You people need to get yourself some politicians who are capable of seeing the wider world picture. The democrats under Obama are just an arrogant, ill-informed bunch of cowboys with no more than their own egos at heart. They should have seen the situation approaching and dealt with it a year ago. All their arrogant, self-serving brinkmanship games have done is to bring the world economy to the point of collapse once more. **** them and **** the bankers. It's time to get yourselves some new leaders who care. Stop the bombing and violence and kick start your economy before you are taken over by China.

#93 Asymptote

Asymptote

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,512 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:22 PM



These posts are all back in July..........you have missed the current evisceration of the stock markets and the potential wipe out of TNZ government support due to panic over Euro Zone implosions. I suggest this extravaganza is moving to LE and LE and that's it. Artemis and TNZ will fold after playing with their 45's. LE will build two 72's and lend one to either AR or TNZ and that will be it. SF will say later for this BS and it will move to Newport. Thus spake..................


Nice try, troll.


Actually no. He may not be correct in his estimation of the future for AC34 but he is correct that the idiotic prevarication of the US government has spooked the world markets. You people need to get yourself some politicians who are capable of seeing the wider world picture. The democrats under Obama Republicans and their Tea Party whack-doodles are just an arrogant, ill-informed bunch of cowboys with no more than their own egos corporate sponsor's wallets at heart. They We should have seen the situation approaching and dealt with it a year ago, but instead we elected these tea-drinking bozos. All their arrogant, self-serving brinkmanship games have done is to bring the world economy to the point of collapse once more. **** them and **** the bankers. It's time to get yourselves some new leaders who care. Stop the bombing and violence and kick start your economy before you are taken over by China.


Fixed it for you....Unfortunately the brinksmanship will continue until the bankers and the corporate "persons" are fully served their full portion of the US and world economy and the former US middle class is competing in a race to the bottom with the 3rd world in wages and quality of life.

BTW, it seems republican representatives and senators are surprisingly affordable this year...buy two!

Hi-jack over....Back to the AC.

#94 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:30 PM




These posts are all back in July..........you have missed the current evisceration of the stock markets and the potential wipe out of TNZ government support due to panic over Euro Zone implosions. I suggest this extravaganza is moving to LE and LE and that's it. Artemis and TNZ will fold after playing with their 45's. LE will build two 72's and lend one to either AR or TNZ and that will be it. SF will say later for this BS and it will move to Newport. Thus spake..................


Nice try, troll.


Actually no. He may not be correct in his estimation of the future for AC34 but he is correct that the idiotic prevarication of the US government has spooked the world markets. You people need to get yourself some politicians who are capable of seeing the wider world picture. The democrats under Obama Republicans and their Tea Party whack-doodles are just an arrogant, ill-informed bunch of cowboys with no more than their own egos corporate sponsor's wallets at heart. They We should have seen the situation approaching and dealt with it a year ago, but instead we elected these tea-drinking bozos. All their arrogant, self-serving brinkmanship games have done is to bring the world economy to the point of collapse once more. **** them and **** the bankers. It's time to get yourselves some new leaders who care. Stop the bombing and violence and kick start your economy before you are taken over by China.


Fixed it for you....Unfortunately the brinksmanship will continue until the bankers and the corporate "persons" are fully served their full portion of the US and world economy and the former US middle class is competing in a race to the bottom with the 3rd world in wages and quality of life.

BTW, it seems republican representatives and senators are surprisingly affordable this year...buy two!

Hi-jack over....Back to the AC.

What you need are people who care for others not themselves. The current lot of ****tards should be made to take a long walk off a short plank. And I agree that half-witted middle aged mothers with guns is a bad look for everyone not just Alaskan bears and the US economy.

#95 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,702 posts

Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:38 PM

Alan Greenspan was at the source of the deficit. Ben Shalom Bernanke is now advocating it.....

#96 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,622 posts

Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:42 PM

You can bet your ass I do not support anything the Democrats in the Senate or President Empty Suit has done.

Thread hijack over.

#97 pjfranks

pjfranks

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:yep
  • Interests:wtf is one warning points?

Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:43 PM

Alan Greenspan was at the source of the deficit. Ben Shalom Bernanke is now advocating it.....

****them and **** the bankers.

#98 K38BOB

K38BOB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,452 posts
  • Location:Bay Area

Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:22 AM



These posts are all back in July..........you have missed the current evisceration of the stock markets and the potential wipe out of TNZ government support due to panic over Euro Zone implosions. I suggest this extravaganza is moving to LE and LE and that's it. Artemis and TNZ will fold after playing with their 45's. LE will build two 72's and lend one to either AR or TNZ and that will be it. SF will say later for this BS and it will move to Newport. Thus spake..................


Nice try, troll.


Actually no. He may not be correct in his estimation of the future for AC34 but he is correct that the idiotic prevarication of the US government has spooked the world markets. You people need to get yourself some politicians who are capable of seeing the wider world picture. The democrats under Obama are just an arrogant, ill-informed bunch of cowboys with no more than their own egos at heart. They should have seen the situation approaching and dealt with it a year ago. All their arrogant, self-serving brinkmanship games have done is to bring the world economy to the point of collapse once more. **** them and **** the bankers. It's time to get yourselves some new leaders who care. Stop the bombing and violence and kick start your economy before you are taken over by China.


Perhaps the Irish politicians could give a seminar? Posted Image

#99 GBR1

GBR1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 276 posts
  • Location:WWW
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 06 August 2011 - 02:28 AM

Take it to PA. We have enough to bitch about without raising this here.:angry:

#100 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 06 August 2011 - 03:33 AM

Boys and girls, settle down!

The question is "can you live with 1 defender and only 2 challengers?"

In the America's Cup boat race.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users