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1 Defender, 2 Challengers Only?


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#101 Monster Mash

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 05:02 AM

Boys and girls, settle down!

The question is "can you live with 1 defender and only 2 challengers?"

In the America's Cup boat race.




Yes but will SF?

#102 pjfranks

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 08:06 AM

Boys and girls, settle down!

The question is "can you live with 1 defender and only 2 challengers?"

In the America's Cup boat race.




Yes but will SF?


Yes but the taxpayers will be restless.

#103 pjfranks

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 08:10 AM

These posts are all back in July..........you have missed the current evisceration of the stock markets and the potential wipe out of TNZ government support due to panic over Euro Zone implosions. I suggest this extravaganza is moving to LE and LE and that's it. Artemis and TNZ will fold after playing with their 45's. LE will build two 72's and lend one to either AR or TNZ and that will be it. SF will say later for this BS and it will move to Newport. Thus spake..................


Nice try, troll.


Actually no. He may not be correct in his estimation of the future for AC34 but he is correct that the idiotic prevarication of the US government has spooked the world markets. You people need to get yourself some politicians who are capable of seeing the wider world picture. The democrats under Obama are just an arrogant, ill-informed bunch of cowboys with no more than their own egos at heart. They should have seen the situation approaching and dealt with it a year ago. All their arrogant, self-serving brinkmanship games have done is to bring the world economy to the point of collapse once more. **** them and **** the bankers. It's time to get yourselves some new leaders who care. Stop the bombing and violence and kick start your economy before you are taken over by China.


Perhaps the Irish politicians could give a seminar? Posted Image

There's no need. The US credit rating agencies know how to rate a junk bond as AAA and they just downgraded US gov bonds to AA. Now China will start to tell you how to run your economy. That'll be a new experience for you.

#104 Te Kooti

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 03:20 PM

The US credit rating agencies know how to rate a junk bond as AAA and they just downgraded US gov bonds to AA. Now China will start to tell you how to run your economy. That'll be a new experience for you.



Who knows where we will be by 2013?

Right now, there is a confluence of factors pointing away from (not toward) a rich-guy boat race.

This morning even Standard & Poors are throwing cold water on US plans for economic reform.

Ernesto will be laughing if Larry ends up with a 3-syndicate regatta.

For me personally, it does not matter.

TNZ will be there and is the likely winner.

The sooner we get the AC back to Aotearoa for a defense in Mount Maunganui the better-off we will be.

P.S. Maybe Karl Marx was right. Capitalism is deeply flawed and, just like the Roman Empire, will eat itself from the inside out.

#105 Koukel

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:35 PM

It increasingly looks like AC 2013 will be an emaciated affair involving one defender (OR) and two challengers (AR, TNZ).

Slow news day. Still feel this way? I'm thinking at least one challenger other than Artemis, NZ and Luna Rosa will get in the game, even if only to be competitive in future AC regattas. That would make 5 teams and six boats at minimum. I believe this is more than many (or most) AC regattas all time.

And doesn't someone owe Stingray Rum? I lost track, but it would be fun to know who is the best bet at getting some booze out of.

Koukel

#106 GauchoGreg

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:44 PM

It increasingly looks like AC 2013 will be an emaciated affair involving one defender (OR) and two challengers (AR, TNZ).

Slow news day. Still feel this way? I'm thinking at least one challenger other than Artemis, NZ and Luna Rosa will get in the game, even if only to be competitive in future AC regattas. That would make 5 teams and six boats at minimum. I believe this is more than many (or most) AC regattas all time.

And doesn't someone owe Stingray Rum? I lost track, but it would be fun to know who is the best bet at getting some booze out of.

Koukel



What I anticipate:

OR
ETNZ
AR
LR
ET
Korea
1 or 2 of GC, Aleph, China, or a team yet to announce

So, a total of 7 or 8 teams. Of those, I believe the following will have 2 boats:

OR
ETNZ
AR
LR

So, by the time of the LV, there will be a total of more than 10 AC72s sailing. I believe this is about what some of us have been hoping for, and anticipating.

#107 kiwi_jon

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:52 PM

I predict that there will only be two boats for the 34th America's Cup.

1 x Defender
1 x Challenger

:rolleyes:

#108 Koukel

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 06:28 PM

I predict that there will only be two boats for the 34th America's Cup.

1 x Defender
1 x Challenger

:rolleyes:

Damn you, that's right.

I stand corrected, and mildly shamed. I'll bet you a bottle of rum its not the last time I screw something up around here.

Koukel

#109 acintel

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 07:47 PM

Reality will probably not exceed 5 challengers. But, whatever the number, pretty far from the 15 teams announced by OR in April.

They have been deceiving in all expectations. Teams, number of ACWS and that is with changing the rules everyday. Without that there would be 2 challengers. Not more.

So let's wait and see, but please no praising of ACAlphabet miserable work.

#110 pjfranks

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 07:59 PM

Reality will probably not exceed 5 challengers. But, whatever the number, pretty far from the 15 teams announced by OR in April.

They have been deceiving in all expectations. Teams, number of ACWS and that is with changing the rules everyday. Without that there would be 2 challengers. Not more.

So let's wait and see, but please no praising of ACAlphabet miserable work.

IMO the real challenger is ETNZ.

AR will drop out if they can't get a full co-operation deal with OR and so will LR if they are prevented from a similar arrangement with ETNZ.

The best solution for AC34 is a DoG match between OR and ETNZ.

OR roll out Gogzilla and ETNZ screw them with an AC72.

Nice.

#111 fubaru

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:55 PM

Nice necro B)

It looks like quite a few teams are building AC72s, but how many will be able to afford to build a second?

#112 GauchoGreg

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:56 PM

Reality will probably not exceed 5 challengers. But, whatever the number, pretty far from the 15 teams announced by OR in April.

They have been deceiving in all expectations. Teams, number of ACWS and that is with changing the rules everyday. Without that there would be 2 challengers. Not more.

So let's wait and see, but please no praising of ACAlphabet miserable work.



First of all, they never promised 15 teams were in. They NEVER did. They had, at one point, indicated 12 were supposed to be entered. But there is a reason why some of those were never divulged. They kicked one team out. They promised amazing coverage, and delivered. They promised compelling racing, and delivered. They promised exciting boats, and have delivered. Is it deceiving to plan on a certain number of regattas, but conditions end up not supporting them, or did they just hope for too much.

So, which of ET, Korea, GC, Aleph, China are not going to make it with an AC72? From the sounds of it, ET and Korea are pretty much there, already.

#113 Monster Mash

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 11:33 PM

Reality will probably not exceed 5 challengers. But, whatever the number, pretty far from the 15 teams announced by OR in April.

They have been deceiving in all expectations. Teams, number of ACWS and that is with changing the rules everyday. Without that there would be 2 challengers. Not more.

So let's wait and see, but please no praising of ACAlphabet miserable work.



First of all, they never promised 15 teams were in. They NEVER did. They had, at one point, indicated 12 were supposed to be entered. But there is a reason why some of those were never divulged. They kicked one team out. They promised amazing coverage, and delivered. They promised compelling racing, and delivered. They promised exciting boats, and have delivered. Is it deceiving to plan on a certain number of regattas, but conditions end up not supporting them, or did they just hope for too much.

So, which of ET, Korea, GC, Aleph, China are not going to make it with an AC72? From the sounds of it, ET and Korea are pretty much there, already.



Others with more resources and time can fight over who "they" were but I remember being bombarded with press releases and projections of 12-15 teams entering. Feel free to look back at some early artists rendetions of the SF AC village and count the number of bases .

#114 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:24 AM

We all broke down the original 22 interested teams in perfect detail; then the 15 who filed by the deadline, then the 12, then ML dropping out, CAN never announcing their entry, VZ failing to make agreements; and saw the LR addition coming. Think we've been pretty accurate all along and I see no deception by anyone at any time given the decision to allow teams to always speak for themselves.

It sure feels like there's a wildcard shoe still to drop, putting us at ten Challngers, but I'll be damned before betting who that is, so far. Given 5-1 odds I might take Oman. 3-1 odds, a 'European' team.

The Big 4 are at least as strong as in AC32, which was itself strong that way. So.. No complaints by me, especially considering others still have the potential to become serious contenders too.

#115 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:44 AM

We all broke down the original 22 interested teams in perfect detail; then the 15 who filed by the deadline, then the 12, then ML dropping out, CAN never announcing their entry, VZ failing to make agreements; and saw the LR addition coming. Think we've been pretty accurate all along and I see no deception by anyone at any time given the decision to allow teams to always speak for themselves.

It sure feels like there's a wildcard shoe still to drop, putting us at ten Challngers, but I'll be damned before betting who that is, so far. Given 5-1 odds I might take Oman. 3-1 odds, a 'European' team.

The Big 4 are at least as strong as in AC32, which was itself strong that way. So.. No complaints by me, especially considering others still have the potential to become serious contenders too.



I have been very impressed by the professionalism that Energy Team has practiced the entire time. They have seemed to have a very set plan, and have worked their ass off to get there. They have been very forward with publicity, appearing to be pretty damned honest. They have hired the quality, and have been serious. As an organization, regarding their professionalism, I believe they have been right there with Oracle and ETNZ to this point. I will be very surprised if they are not there the whole way through the LV. Add them to ETNZ, AR, and LR to make 4 very legit challengers. Then we have had a great effort, and seemingly good news lately from Korea, and you have 5. GreenComm certainly has the potential, as does China. And Aleph is the Little Engine that Could.

I have to wonder how the Nellies around here would spin it if all of the challengers except Australia and ML make it to the LV. I think we have said all along that we would be happy if there are six teams, total (including Oracle). It is looking very much like we will have at least that.

#116 Estar

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:10 AM

I think we have said all along that we would be happy if there are six teams, total (including Oracle). It is looking very much like we will have at least that.



We went thru this months ago. A 5 boat LV does not create the agreed number of SF 'racing days' without quite a bit of padding. A 6 boat LV can do it but will get a bit repetitive. More boats than that and you start to get a regatta that fills the allotted time. I think it is reasonably obvious they negotiated the number of racing days assuming around 10 challenges.

It would be interesting to know what the current thinking actually is about the LV - just for instance - are they still going to mix in fleet racing or focus on the more important (at that point) match racing? The fleet races are better TV, but it would be a great shame if someone broke their boat in an irrelevant fleet race.



I have to wonder how the Nellies around here would spin it if all of the challengers except Australia and ML make it to the LV.


I suspect most would love it. We are ALL passionate about the AC or we would not be hanging out here. Just because some/many are quite skeptical does NOT make them AC 'haters'. That is and has been an inaccurate and unfair description of the vast majority. The name calling is really not very productive.

#117 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:19 AM

GG, Bingo

Estar, agree too but don't care the SF deal; the sharp end of the LVC is always the great stuff anyway.

#118 sunseeker

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:21 AM

We all broke down the original 22 interested teams in perfect detail; then the 15 who filed by the deadline, then the 12, then ML dropping out, CAN never announcing their entry, VZ failing to make agreements; and saw the LR addition coming. Think we've been pretty accurate all along and I see no deception by anyone at any time given the decision to allow teams to always speak for themselves.

It sure feels like there's a wildcard shoe still to drop, putting us at ten Challngers, but I'll be damned before betting who that is, so far. Given 5-1 odds I might take Oman. 3-1 odds, a 'European' team.

The Big 4 are at least as strong as in AC32, which was itself strong that way. So.. No complaints by me, especially considering others still have the potential to become serious contenders too.



I have been very impressed by the professionalism that Energy Team has practiced the entire time. They have seemed to have a very set plan, and have worked their ass off to get there. They have been very forward with publicity, appearing to be pretty damned honest. They have hired the quality, and have been serious. As an organization, regarding their professionalism, I believe they have been right there with Oracle and ETNZ to this point. I will be very surprised if they are not there the whole way through the LV. Add them to ETNZ, AR, and LR to make 4 very legit challengers. Then we have had a great effort, and seemingly good news lately from Korea, and you have 5. GreenComm certainly has the potential, as does China. And Aleph is the Little Engine that Could.

I have to wonder how the Nellies around here would spin it if all of the challengers except Australia and ML make it to the LV. I think we have said all along that we would be happy if there are six teams, total (including Oracle). It is looking very much like we will have at least that.


Greencom has potential? For what? The guy they hired to put the team together, Luca Devoti, didn't get paid, so he's not there any more. Do you really think that's a strong indication of a team that has potential?

#119 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:24 AM

^ There's something about Francesco de Leo, with his lofty aims, goals, and apparent connections. I am not counting that syndicate out, by any means.

It's what had me doggedly keeping as close attention as I could to GCR, even in the complete absence of news on them, and was ultimately proved right, right here, about who that secret #7 entry was. He has given two very interesting interviews in the past two years, you have to figure he's not making that stuff up because why on earth would he?

Some of that team absolutely has super star potential.

#120 Monster Mash

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:54 AM

We all broke down the original 22 interested teams in perfect detail; then the 15 who filed by the deadline, then the 12, then ML dropping out, CAN never announcing their entry, VZ failing to make agreements; and saw the LR addition coming. Think we've been pretty accurate all along and I see no deception by anyone at any time given the decision to allow teams to always speak for themselves.

It sure feels like there's a wildcard shoe still to drop, putting us at ten Challngers, but I'll be damned before betting who that is, so far. Given 5-1 odds I might take Oman. 3-1 odds, a 'European' team.

The Big 4 are at least as strong as in AC32, which was itself strong that way. So.. No complaints by me, especially considering others still have the potential to become serious contenders too.



I have been very impressed by the professionalism that Energy Team has practiced the entire time. They have seemed to have a very set plan, and have worked their ass off to get there. They have been very forward with publicity, appearing to be pretty damned honest. They have hired the quality, and have been serious. As an organization, regarding their professionalism, I believe they have been right there with Oracle and ETNZ to this point. I will be very surprised if they are not there the whole way through the LV. Add them to ETNZ, AR, and LR to make 4 very legit challengers. Then we have had a great effort, and seemingly good news lately from Korea, and you have 5. GreenComm certainly has the potential, as does China. And Aleph is the Little Engine that Could.

I have to wonder how the Nellies around here would spin it if all of the challengers except Australia and ML make it to the LV. I think we have said all along that we would be happy if there are six teams, total (including Oracle). It is looking very much like we will have at least that.


Greencom has potential? For what? The guy they hired to put the team together, Luca Devoti, didn't get paid, so he's not there any more. Do you really think that's a strong indication of a team that has potential?



I tried to break this story a while ago but nobody was interested. btw its a very funny story.

Monster Mash Posted Image Posted 19 August 2011 - 10:18 AM

I hear there's a pretty funny story about a GC crew member literally jumping ship. Anybody got details?


#121 sunseeker

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:12 AM

^ There's something about Francesco de Leo, with his lofty aims, goals, and apparent connections. I am not counting that syndicate out, by any means.

It's what had me doggedly keeping as close attention as I could to GCR, even in the complete absence of news on them, and was ultimately proved right, right here, about who that secret #7 entry was. He has given two very interesting interviews in the past two years, you have to figure he's not making that stuff up because why on earth would he?

Some of that team absolutely has super star potential.


Well I hope Greencom and all the others make it too. But, when the guy that puts the sailors together isn't paid, that has to sort of set the tone. Greencom is severally underfunded, and unless they can pull a magic rabbit out of the hat, they will be so far behind the 8 ball it won't be funny. That's a core problem, teams showing up late, poorly prepared, with limited if any real time in a 72. All they need to do is lose control once, t-bone the likes of ETNZ, Artemis, or Luna Rosa, and the quality of the competition will be seriously diminished.

I think one of the biggest mistakes that GGYC made was in setting the bar for entry too low. They should have made teams have $20 million, in cash, in order to enter. Would have been a smaller fleet for sure, but far more real. We need a bunch of wanna be's in the America's Cup exactly why?

#122 Te Kooti

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:38 AM

It will be OR versus either:

* TNZ
* LR
* Artemis

And I am predicting OR versus TNZ in the Cup match.

#123 Monster Mash

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:44 AM

^^
No love for the French?
Thats a lot of speculation for a yet to sail LR.
Agree with OR and TNZ in the finals

#124 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:56 AM

SunSeeker, you apparently know more than we do about GCR's potential? I am all ears, tell us please?

TK: your list has been getting progressively longer, do you see the trend yet? What/who was your 'only 2 Challengers' thread inspired by, again?

Wishful thinking? :)

#125 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 03:10 AM

It will be OR versus either:

* TNZ
* LR
* Artemis

And I am predicting OR versus TNZ in the Cup match.


Bahhh, TK, ............................. LR is to TNZ what Ar is to Or.

If Aleph and ET have engough budget, they will be more than dangerous, and nobody can predict the final.

#126 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 03:37 AM

Bring Back AC Nationality Rules ! :)

Guillaume Verdier
Posted Image

#127 Monster Mash

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:11 AM

It will be OR versus either:

* TNZ
* LR
* Artemis

And I am predicting OR versus TNZ in the Cup match.


Bahhh, TK, ............................. LR is to TNZ what Ar is to Or.

If Aleph and ET have engough budget, they will be more than dangerous, and nobody can predict the final.



There's the rub. I don't think think there's enough money for a dual French challenge.

#128 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:29 AM

^ You don't think so, based on what exactly?

#129 sunseeker

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:30 AM

SunSeeker, you apparently know more than we do about GCR's potential? I am all ears, tell us please?

TK: your list has been getting progressively longer, do you see the trend yet? What/who was your 'only 2 Challengers' thread inspired by, again?

Wishful thinking? :)


I'm not sure who knows what around here, but I know what I know, and I know that the guy who put the Greencom team together got stiffed. He's not all that unhappy about it either, better to know now than a year from now. I've seen this sort of thing all too many times, when has an AC team ever been successful when the team leader left almost immediately after the formation of the team?

At this point, it isn't about the potential of the sailors, it is only about the ability of the principle to raise the money. What evidence is there of Greencom doing anything in terms of training in any serious ways. Just because the Finn sailors are sailing in Valencia, and might actually get to sail their AC 45 there for a bit, what is Greencom doing for Design, and testing in some sort of surrogate boat? Anything? Who are their designers, builders ect? What real infrastructure do they have that even remotely resembles a team that is going to be remotely competitive in a 72? Any? Who on the Greencom team has ever sailed a multihull bigger than the 45?

Sure, they have a few months before they have to start construction, but if they are a two boat program they need to be underway about now. If they are a one boat program, they have a few months left to prepare. But you can't be serious in thinking these guys are going to be anything more than some sort of filler. Being a backmarker in something like a V5 was challenging enough, sailing a 72 foot cat with a wing is orders of magnitude harder.

You just have to wonder at what point the sailors are going to realize what they have gotten themselves into. Then again, you know what they say about Finn sailors, "strong like bull, smart like tractor".

#130 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:32 AM

^ You raise a lot of questions but have no answers?

Awesome argument ;) Go find the FdL interviews at least? No hint of stepping back, anywhere, from the insider who does know.

#131 sunseeker

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:41 AM

^ You raise a lot of questions but have no answers?

Awesome argument ;) Go find the FdL interviews at least? No hint of stepping back, anywhere, from the insider who does know.


Dude, what the fuck is your problem? To prove that you are the ultimate Oracle insider? Who cares what you think or know? I sure don't. So I ask questions. Is that worse than your continual dicksucking of all things Oracle Racing?

By the way, have you ever actually sailed?

#132 ro!

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:46 AM

^ You don't think so, based on what exactly?


How about the economy in France..Europe..or their marketing people being able to point to any other sponser being involved in the americascup world series of the world.. apart from the ones involved with the only serious challenger...TNZ..

#133 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:51 AM

Sunshine- Nothing wrong by me with your posting questions that try to undermine GCR. I just wish you would at least try harder to back it up with references to facts.

I happen to admire that team, for reasons that I've pointed at several times. But I don't actually give a fuck what you think you know either, which is apparently zero on the subject you presumed to go off on about.

Nice try on the wide diversion about who could beat who on the water; is that a retreat?

#134 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 05:02 AM

^ You don't think so, based on what exactly?


How about the economy in France..Europe..or their marketing people being able to point to any other sponser being involved in the americascup world series of the world.. apart from the ones involved with the only serious challenger...TNZ..

Okay, that is possible, guess we will see.

In the US, at least in my area, there is a gigantic difference between Business money, even big personal/billionaire money, compared to discretionary local govt budgets.

$20-30m just isn't that significant a number in some circles, and that is exactly what FdL has suggested, borderline laughingly, in at least one interview.

'The economy' is of course an issue for some; but guess what? Not everybody gets sucked into 'depression.'

#135 dogwatch

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 07:39 AM

Then again, you know what they say about Finn sailors, "strong like bull, smart like tractor".


Is that so? Who is this "they" who say that? Do you know any Finn sailors? Do they match that description? I do and they don't.

#136 dogwatch

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 07:42 AM

I think we have said all along


Is that the "Royal we", aka the "majestic plural"? http://en.wikipedia....Majestic_plural

and seemingly good news lately from Korea


I am rooting for TK for obvious reasons but what is this recent good news?

I have to wonder how the Nellies around here would spin it if all of the challengers except Australia and ML make it to the LV.


Nelly? I thought the official description was NNN. Anyway, personally, I don't predict what I'd like. I predict what I predict and I predict that not all of the ACWS teams will make it to the LVC. I wouldn't be disappointed to be wrong - just surprised.

#137 sunseeker

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 03:47 PM

Then again, you know what they say about Finn sailors, "strong like bull, smart like tractor".


Is that so? Who is this "they" who say that? Do you know any Finn sailors? Do they match that description? I do and they don't.


It's an old line, and yes, I do know more than a few Finn sailors, and you are correct, not all are strong like bull or smart like tractor. Some are older guys who aren't strong, a few are very bright, and a few aren't bright enough to stay out of a boat they have no business being in. Otherwise, how hard is it for you to enjoy a bit of sarcastic humor, most all Finn sailors I know are a very fun bunch and take no offense.

How about answering this though, do you really think you are going to take a bunch of Finn sailors and in no time at all turn them into a team that is going to be able to handle an AC 72, on a highly competitively level, against teams that are obviously better funded and much further down the track than they are, living hand to mouth like they are currently?

#138 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:09 PM

I think we have said all along that we would be happy if there are six teams, total (including Oracle). It is looking very much like we will have at least that.



We went thru this months ago. A 5 boat LV does not create the agreed number of SF 'racing days' without quite a bit of padding. A 6 boat LV can do it but will get a bit repetitive. More boats than that and you start to get a regatta that fills the allotted time. I think it is reasonably obvious they negotiated the number of racing days assuming around 10 challenges.

It would be interesting to know what the current thinking actually is about the LV - just for instance - are they still going to mix in fleet racing or focus on the more important (at that point) match racing? The fleet races are better TV, but it would be a great shame if someone broke their boat in an irrelevant fleet race.



I have to wonder how the Nellies around here would spin it if all of the challengers except Australia and ML make it to the LV.


I suspect most would love it. We are ALL passionate about the AC or we would not be hanging out here. Just because some/many are quite skeptical does NOT make them AC 'haters'. That is and has been an inaccurate and unfair description of the vast majority. The name calling is really not very productive.


It's one thing to be skeptical, or unsure, but you KNOW that many have been actually jumping at the chance, every time, to go negative and give the "told you so" any time a team struggles or there is the chance for failure. This very thread, the effort to call the organizers deceitful and claiming they promised 15 teams is a great example.

As with Stingray, I have never really paid much mind to the agreement with SF, and have pretty much always focused on the boats, the racing, and the hope to watch the best sailing event ever, with the most exciting boat racing and with the best coverage.

#139 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:15 PM

^ There's something about Francesco de Leo, with his lofty aims, goals, and apparent connections. I am not counting that syndicate out, by any means.

It's what had me doggedly keeping as close attention as I could to GCR, even in the complete absence of news on them, and was ultimately proved right, right here, about who that secret #7 entry was. He has given two very interesting interviews in the past two years, you have to figure he's not making that stuff up because why on earth would he?

Some of that team absolutely has super star potential.


Well I hope Greencom and all the others make it too. But, when the guy that puts the sailors together isn't paid, that has to sort of set the tone. Greencom is severally underfunded, and unless they can pull a magic rabbit out of the hat, they will be so far behind the 8 ball it won't be funny. That's a core problem, teams showing up late, poorly prepared, with limited if any real time in a 72. All they need to do is lose control once, t-bone the likes of ETNZ, Artemis, or Luna Rosa, and the quality of the competition will be seriously diminished.

I think one of the biggest mistakes that GGYC made was in setting the bar for entry too low. They should have made teams have $20 million, in cash, in order to enter. Would have been a smaller fleet for sure, but far more real. We need a bunch of wanna be's in the America's Cup exactly why?


I meant what I said, GC has the potential. Does that mean I would bet on them? Nope. Just the potential. I believe the odds are better than 75% that ET makes it, and probably around 60% Korea makes it. I believe China is around 50%. GC and Aleph may be down in the 25-40% odds they make it, but I would not bet against any of these teams.

#140 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:19 PM

It will be OR versus either:

* TNZ
* LR
* Artemis

And I am predicting OR versus TNZ in the Cup match.


Bahhh, TK, ............................. LR is to TNZ what Ar is to Or.

If Aleph and ET have engough budget, they will be more than dangerous, and nobody can predict the final.



There's the rub. I don't think think there's enough money for a dual French challenge.



I keep thinking it may be the case that there were be more money, for both teams, if they both make it. I think France may sleep through an AC with only one team. But they may get excited about an AC with two French teams. Advertisers would be much more excited with an excited France, and there are more than the one or two companies in France that would be needed to fund either team. Get the excitement there, and I could easily see where both teams could get funded in sail-mad France.

#141 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:23 PM

'The economy' is of course an issue for some; but guess what? Not everybody gets sucked into 'depression.'



And in every economy, companies have looked to spend money on advertising, and professional sports have not exactly died during times of recession/depression.

#142 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:25 PM

I think we have said all along


Is that the "Royal we", aka the "majestic plural"? http://en.wikipedia....Majestic_plural

and seemingly good news lately from Korea


I am rooting for TK for obvious reasons but what is this recent good news?

I have to wonder how the Nellies around here would spin it if all of the challengers except Australia and ML make it to the LV.


Nelly? I thought the official description was NNN. Anyway, personally, I don't predict what I'd like. I predict what I predict and I predict that not all of the ACWS teams will make it to the LVC. I wouldn't be disappointed to be wrong - just surprised.


You are not exactly one of the folks that actively has rooted against every effort or claim from the organizers, either. There are those here that LEAP at any chance to claim corruption, fraud, incompetence, failure, etc.

#143 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:29 PM

How about answering this though, do you really think you are going to take a bunch of Finn sailors and in no time at all turn them into a team that is going to be able to handle an AC 72, on a highly competitively level, against teams that are obviously better funded and much further down the track than they are, living hand to mouth like they are currently?


Something I have also wondered. I don't really get the concept. These are not comparable in speed, in type of boat (handling), in tactics, in controls, etc. I can see bringing in Tornado guys, in fast skiffs, in ORMA guys, G-Class guys, in match-racing guys, etc. I don't get the focus on the Finn.

#144 Estar

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:43 PM

It's one thing to be skeptical, or unsure, but you KNOW that many have been actually jumping at the chance, every time, to go negative and give the "told you so" any time a team struggles or there is the chance for failure.


No, I would say that group (wishing for/enjoying failure) is few rather than 'many". I agree that there are 'many' that have been skeptical and somewhat frustrated with the continued hyperbole and exaggerated spin.The later group will in fact be delighted and excited if what they thought was exaggeration actually materializes, but they think it is stupid to have sold (to be selling) a business plan on what looks to them like total hyperbole and are sorry for the seemingly (to them) huge wasted opportunity (what all that money/those resources could have done for the sport if it have been more wisely directed/managed). We will not know if this group's opinion/judgement is right or wrong until 2014, but they are not 'hater' or 'negative' on the AC, only on what they see as the hyperbole and waste. I would suggest that you and some others have inaccurately lumped those two groups together. I believe you and others could generally have more useful and productive discussions if you distinguish between these two groups rather than ;lumping them together and calling them both names.

I was not around so much in the prior AC cycles, but my impression is that the 'caustic negative/attack' culture seems to be to have been started and cheer-led by the OR crowd (against Alengi), so in a way you created the culture you are now complaining about and in fact are simply "reaping what you sowed" and the complaints by the OR crowd now are a bit hypocritical.

All someone like me, with no ax to grind, can do is hope that the AC story becomes good enough that it overwhelms the backbiting.

#145 GauchoGreg

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:05 PM

It's one thing to be skeptical, or unsure, but you KNOW that many have been actually jumping at the chance, every time, to go negative and give the "told you so" any time a team struggles or there is the chance for failure.


No, I would say that group (wishing for/enjoying failure) is few rather than 'many". I agree that there are 'many' that have been skeptical and somewhat frustrated with the continued hyperbole and exaggerated spin.The later group will in fact be delighted and excited if what they thought was exaggeration actually materializes, but they think it is stupid to have sold (to be selling) a business plan on what looks to them like total hyperbole and are sorry for the seemingly (to them) huge wasted opportunity (what all that money/those resources could have done for the sport if it have been more wisely directed/managed). We will not know if this group's opinion/judgement is right or wrong until 2014, but they are not 'hater' or 'negative' on the AC, only on what they see as the hyperbole and waste. I would suggest that you and some others have inaccurately lumped those two groups together. I believe you and others could generally have more useful and productive discussions if you distinguish between these two groups rather than ;lumping them together and calling them both names.

I was not around so much in the prior AC cycles, but my impression is that the 'caustic negative/attack' culture seems to be to have been started and cheer-led by the OR crowd (against Alengi), so in a way you created the culture you are now complaining about and in fact are simply "reaping what you sowed" and the complaints by the OR crowd now are a bit hypocritical.

All someone like me, with no ax to grind, can do is hope that the AC story becomes good enough that it overwhelms the backbiting.



First of all, I have not specified who has been in what group. I have only said there are many that seem to jump at the chance to cry wolf (on in this case: fraud/deception/failure, etc.) every chance they can. I don't care to go into names, but you can bet your ass Rocky fits in that crowd.

Secondly, I have never been a real fan of Oracle, but LOVE what they are doing with the cup, moving it to cutting edge boats with logically developed dimensions (you may argue things should be different, but the intent was obvious to make the boats really fast and comply with shipping/handling requirements), giving us amazing coverage, etc. I have always struggled to really like them, in many ways, even though I respect them. I do seem to like ET and Korea, for whatever reason.

#146 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:11 PM

The GCR talk above reminded me of this recent piece, so re-posting it here. I really hope they do pull through, they are one of the more interesting team stories so far, to me.

from http://www.americasc...-training-plan/
Francesco de Leo, Executive Chairman: “After today's result, I think that we have to carefully think about how to improve our match racing skills. We simply made a mistake and it was rightful for the Koreans to beat us. At this level of the game there is no mercy. If you make a mistake, you pay the price of it, no excuse.

I'm very happy with the start we had and I think our guys are now able to be more consistent. I still want to look at the positive side of it, for four legs, up to halfway the fifth one we were in the lead and for some reason the crew made a wrong call at the gate.

The guys need to get as much training as possible and for that reason we will be in Valencia starting mid January. The fact there will not be any ACWS event before the month of April is actually in our favor. It will allow us to catch up with the number of sailing hours we need. It will also allows us to organize the team the way we should but also get more into the details of how we should plan about our AC72 yacht. We will do some R&D work, basic stuff that should be done by March 2012. We will plan the roll out of the program that will allow us to be sailing in San Francisco in March 2013.

Our AC45 yacht will be shipped from San Diego to Valencia and we will set up our base in the Real Valencia Club Náutico, the yacht club we are representing and our home. There will also be a number of other America's Cup teams there and we look forward to training and interacting with them. I'm sure that in Naples the level of racing will be higher than today.”



#147 dogwatch

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 06:39 AM

You are not exactly one of the folks that actively has rooted against every effort or claim from the organizers, either.


I'm glad you can see the difference. There are OR supporters who cannot and who perceive anything less than total agreement with anything and everything OR/GGYC does as negativity. There are multi-hull fans who see anything less than rabid enthusiasm for the racing format as a yearning for reinstatement of IACC boats. Discussion with either of these groups is a tedious non-conversation.

#148 Koukel

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:20 AM

At this point, it isn't about the potential of the sailors, it is only about the ability of the principle to raise the money. What evidence is there of Greencom doing anything in terms of training in any serious ways. Just because the Finn sailors are sailing in Valencia, and might actually get to sail their AC 45 there for a bit, what is Greencom doing for Design, and testing in some sort of surrogate boat? Anything? Who are their designers, builders ect? What real infrastructure do they have that even remotely resembles a team that is going to be remotely competitive in a 72? Any? Who on the Greencom team has ever sailed a multihull bigger than the 45?

Ouch, you’re mean.

I haven't read any post after this yet, but these people seem like candidates for the first gen. design package. From what I read, and I'll read crap from any place with sailboats in it, you defined a little bit the kind of team the original design group wanted to boot strap up.

Koukel

#149 josselin

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:21 PM

ET could be a the 4th challenger after AR TNZ and LR
Bruno Peyron seems to have soon funding for 2 AC45.

in France Loick Peyron and his brother a really well known by anybody even people neither involved nor interested in sailing. they are just known as very good sailors.

their name by themselves are really efficient for PR. Not sure the names of james spithill or terry hutchinson have the same impact ... surely in France anyway!

They can really interest investors especially after promising first results.

Bare in mind that Et has only been built few month ago only for this cup the other 4 teams have been here and funded for years.

#150 Rennmaus

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 03:46 PM

Vasilij Zbogar from Perth:

http://www.sailing.o.../index/id/10114

#151 ~HHN92~

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 03:57 PM

Vasilij Zbogar from Perth:

http://www.sailing.o.../index/id/10114


Interesting that there is still a question on which way he will go, AC vs Olympics. I had not heard this before, I thought he was 'in' for the campaign.

Funding questions that are holding him back from full commitment?

#152 PeterHuston

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:12 PM

Vasilij Zbogar from Perth:

http://www.sailing.o.../index/id/10114


Interesting that there is still a question on which way he will go, AC vs Olympics. I had not heard this before, I thought he was 'in' for the campaign.

Funding questions that are holding him back from full commitment?


What exactly is the Greencom campaign? Going to come ACWS races, with no money to spend?

Like all pro sailors, he'll follow the money. That's his campaign.

#153 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:15 PM

^ Similar
http://www.sailing.org/37470.php

#154 dogwatch

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:32 PM

How about answering this though, do you really think you are going to take a bunch of Finn sailors and in no time at all turn them into a team that is going to be able to handle an AC 72, on a highly competitively level, against teams that are obviously better funded and much further down the track than they are, living hand to mouth like they are currently?


No I don't and I have always found the GreenCom team composition a puzzle in any terms other than Finn sailors are the right kind of weight and can hike like demons. Whether GreenCom is any more "hand to mouth" than a number of the other teams, I am unconvinced. You could equally point to TK, CT, apparently Aleph and even ET as having minimal design/build teams in place at this point. The French teams are however in a different situation because they have existing domestic design and construction firms.

#155 Xlot

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:40 PM

^ Similar
http://www.sailing.org/37470.php


I am very light and the main problem in the two boats is that in the America's Cup you only have to be around 88kgs and with the Finn you should be around 100kg, especially for this event which will be very windy. I am one of the lightest sailors in the Finn.


Nice to know, because in the Cascais helmsman lineup he definitely reminded me of Rocky IV's Ivan Drago :D

#156 dogwatch

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:11 PM

^

The 100kg remark was interesting but I doubt BA will weigh 100Kg at Weymouth. AFAIK he was 90kg for Beijing and aiming for 95kg now. Big for an ex-Laser sailor either way.

#157 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:29 PM

^ This article has VZ at 88kg, he might be underpowered if the Doctor kicks in

http://sailjuice.pos...p-for-the-frema

An ISAF preview today runs an interview with Vasilij Zbogar, who I have got to know during the America's Cup World Series events, most recently in San Diego. He's a tall bloke, but surprisingly weighs in at just 88kg, heavy for helming an AC45 but too light for the Finn singlehander. 

#158 GauchoGreg

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 06:47 PM

OK, so it looks like funded teams now include:

Defender:
Oracle

Challengers:
Artemis
ETNZ
Luna Rossa
GreenComm

Likely:
Energy

Possible:
Korea (I moved them from Likely, due to Draper/Bittle departures, but still, one team possibly best possibility other than ET for commercial sponsors)
China
Aleph
Team yet to be announced (GBR or ME)


So much for the 1 defender / 2 challenger proclamation.

I would love to see a 6-challenger LV, as I have been saying all along. I can still very easily see 8 challengers happening. It would be awesome to see 8-10 AC72s developed.

#159 ~Stingray~

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:25 PM

A VS tweet less than an hour ago
--
Any info on who is the skipper of the British AC challenger?

#160 SW Sailor

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:38 PM

rocky ?? No wait, he's already signed up to do bow for Kithcart.

#161 Te Kooti

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:34 PM

A VS tweet less than an hour ago
--
Any info on who is the skipper of the British AC challenger?



Stinger ... please elaborate.

What did the tweet say?

It being post-Christmas, has SKM arisen from the grave?


#162 Xlot

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:51 PM

FV was expecting news yesterday - and now

"#AmericasCup looks like in early January we will have another team in the #34thAC Who will be? 1 hr ago"

#163 Te Kooti

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:01 PM

FV was expecting news yesterday - and now

"#AmericasCup looks like in early January we will have another team in the #34thAC Who will be? 1 hr ago"


Time is ALWAYS the enemy of an AC campaign.

So, whoever this latecomer turns out to be, they are way behind the others.

Unless of course, they have an ETNZ/LR jump-into-bed-for-some-good-times model in mind?

If, as rumoured, the latecomer is GBR it is bordering on pathetic.

Because Britannia should have her shit together better than this.

#164 ~Stingray~

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:08 PM

FV was expecting news yesterday - and now

"#AmericasCup looks like in early January we will have another team in the #34thAC Who will be? 1 hr ago"

Interesting, thanks. Hopefully FV was not just parroting VS, or vise versa.

VS also tweeted "January 9th, 2012" and some hours later posted " New year, new America's Cup challenger? " then later the skipper question above.

Jan 9 may be unrelated, hard to tell.

TK, getting way ahead here but: my guess would be almost anyone ~except~ SKM; with Branson the most likely in some capacity.

#165 Te Kooti

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:14 PM

TK, getting way ahead here but: my guess would be almost anyone ~except~ SKM; with Branson the most likely in some capacity.


Sir Richard Branson was recently in Auckland and my son landed a nice contract to film him for a show called "Richard Branson presents ...."

But, on the other side of the world (in Vancouver, Canada) the Virgin Records (later HMV) shop has gone belly up. And it is 70% off everything.

If Branson is author of a new GBR challenge he might find it more difficult than having an adventure in a balloon.

On the other hand, if the new Princess christens the boat, anything could happen.

Hey Dogwatch .... what sayeth you?



#166 Nick Carraway

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:49 PM

Opportunity: build an AC72 and go straight to the LVC "semi-finals" with TNZ, Artemis, and LR (assuming no Euro meltdown).

ET might be the 4th team, once LP sets the Jules Verne record and therefore attracts funding.

or

GCR might actually get enough money from Lombardy Region (but I doubt it).

And (drum roll please) the BA AC45 team associated with OR and to be announced at London Boat Show will be just that, an AC45 team with no plans for AC72 or LVC.

So... find some money, build your AC72, join the LVC semi's and hope your opponent flips or breaks down... You too could be a LVC finalist...

Pardon me, but did GG really say he thinks there could still be 8 AC72's in the LVC? Nah, he couldn't have said that. Nobody could be so detached from reality.

#167 GauchoGreg

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:42 PM

Opportunity: build an AC72 and go straight to the LVC "semi-finals" with TNZ, Artemis, and LR (assuming no Euro meltdown).

ET might be the 4th team, once LP sets the Jules Verne record and therefore attracts funding.

or

GCR might actually get enough money from Lombardy Region (but I doubt it).

And (drum roll please) the BA AC45 team associated with OR and to be announced at London Boat Show will be just that, an AC45 team with no plans for AC72 or LVC.

So... find some money, build your AC72, join the LVC semi's and hope your opponent flips or breaks down... You too could be a LVC finalist...

Pardon me, but did GG really say he thinks there could still be 8 AC72's in the LVC? Nah, he couldn't have said that. Nobody could be so detached from reality.




Yeah, well the title of this thread appears to be more detached from reality than what I have postulated. But I did not say there would be 8 AC72s COMPETING in the LVC. What I said is that it is very likely there will be at least 8 AC72s built (2 each for OR, AR, ETNZ, likely 2 for LR, and one each for any other challengers, likely). And I am excited to see each one splashed, see what the differences will be with each one, and scour the net for footage of each one testing. Read my post again, I am, and always have been, hoping for six LVC Challengers.

#168 ~Stingray~

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:29 PM

A couple more by VS
--
Grant Simmer-Ben Ainslie in a British America's Cup challenger to be announced on Jan 9th at the London Boat Show?
web • 12/30/11 2:22 PM
--
Virgin could be behind the British AC team that will probably be associated with Oracle, similar to ETNZ and Luna Rossa
web • 12/30/11 2:23 PM
--

#169 Nick Carraway

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:36 PM

Opportunity: build an AC72 and go straight to the LVC "semi-finals" with TNZ, Artemis, and LR (assuming no Euro meltdown).

ET might be the 4th team, once LP sets the Jules Verne record and therefore attracts funding.

or

GCR might actually get enough money from Lombardy Region (but I doubt it).

And (drum roll please) the BA AC45 team associated with OR and to be announced at London Boat Show will be just that, an AC45 team with no plans for AC72 or LVC.

So... find some money, build your AC72, join the LVC semi's and hope your opponent flips or breaks down... You too could be a LVC finalist...

Pardon me, but did GG really say he thinks there could still be 8 AC72's in the LVC? Nah, he couldn't have said that. Nobody could be so detached from reality.




Yeah, well the title of this thread appears to be more detached from reality than what I have postulated. But I did not say there would be 8 AC72s COMPETING in the LVC. What I said is that it is very likely there will be at least 8 AC72s built (2 each for OR, AR, ETNZ, likely 2 for LR, and one each for any other challengers, likely). And I am excited to see each one splashed, see what the differences will be with each one, and scour the net for footage of each one testing. Read my post again, I am, and always have been, hoping for six LVC Challengers


six LVC Challengers

And I call myself an optimist. six LVC Challengers six? six??

#170 Nick Carraway

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:48 PM

OK, so it looks like funded teams now include:

Defender:
Oracle

Challengers:
Artemis
ETNZ
Luna Rossa
GreenComm

Likely:
Energy

Possible:
Korea (I moved them from Likely, due to Draper/Bittle departures, but still, one team possibly best possibility other than ET for commercial sponsors)
China
Aleph
Team yet to be announced (GBR or ME)


So much for the 1 defender / 2 challenger proclamation.

I would love to see a 6-challenger LV, as I have been saying all along. I can still very easily see 8 challengers happening. It would be awesome to see 8-10 AC72s developed.


Did GG really say he could very easily see 8 challengers happening?

Nah, he couldn't have said that. No one could be so detached from reality. :P

#171 ~Stingray~

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:55 PM

I'm hoping for 6 LVC entries too, what's wrong with it?

Should anyone ~expect~ that many? It's still too soon to know. Several team bosses have said they are still working their funding; if they don't yet know, then in reality how on earth can we?

This 'BA' arrangement could be interesting; but IF there's to be an OR collaboration during 2012 ala ETNZ/LR then it suggests an AC Challenger, not just an ACWS entry, and quite possibly a very serious LVC contender if so. And six would look all the more likely by that Jan 9 point if it's what gets announced.

There's a list of reasons to think Branson may be interested, from in between Feb '10 in Valencia when he said he might be, until his recent presence at the same time as LE, at ACWS San Diego. Seems plausible enough; helps explain the BA rumors too, IF this happens.

#172 ro!

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:48 AM

I'm hoping for 6 LVC entries too, what's wrong with it?

Should anyone ~expect~ that many? It's still too soon to know. Several team bosses have said they are still working their funding; if they don't yet know, then in reality how on earth can we?

This 'BA' arrangement could be interesting; but IF there's to be an OR collaboration during 2012 ala ETNZ/LR then it suggests an AC Challenger, not just an ACWS entry, and quite possibly a very serious LVC contender if so. And six would look all the more likely by that Jan 9 point if it's what gets announced.

There's a list of reasons to think Branson may be interested, from in between Feb '10 in Valencia when he said he might be, until his recent presence at the same time as LE, at ACWS San Diego. Seems plausible enough; helps explain the BA rumors too, IF this happens.



Interesting dynamic would be larry funding a challenger and the defender...can't wait to hear you say there is nothing wrong with that...
.
I wouldn't hold my breath on Branson bringing money to the table, all he brings is his over the top self promotion and the virgin name to attract sponsers...he has spent three fifths of fuck all on his soon to be over F1 program...

It's not so long ago you were predicting 15 teams and 36 45's...

#173 ~Stingray~

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:26 AM

For sure there's argument to be made if (probably 'when' since they have asked the IJ the permissible cooperation boundaries) OR does enter a collaboration. But it's not that dissimilar from ETNZ and LR in that everyone will be trying to beat each other after 2012 ends and the heat rises in 2013. ETNZ can reasonably be said to be on the verge of building not just the two allowed, but two identical boats in 2012, and a third to launch in 2013. OR, or anyone, has a long way to go before stretching it that far. Whatever the 'design sharing' limits are, by the Protocol they apply to all competitors with no differentiation between Challengers, Defender candidates, or cross-collaborations, until Dec 31 '12.

It will be a bigger issue if a Chall team that engaged with OR went on to beat out all other Challengers, win the LVC, then lose the AC. But we're not exactly anywhere near that point, are we?

Branson may or may not bring much to the table; as with about every sponsorship contract around, it'll probably be proprietary, unless like with Prada subsidiary LR it is required by stock exchange regulations to be publicly disclosed. If we have no idea the (say) Brit financing details, then yes I'm sure some will just assume that therefore Larry found another hole to dump money into..

(And: 15 teams did try to enter and probably unlike you, some of us can accurately account for at least 12 of them. Did anyone predict they would all survive, let alone announce themselves? Nope, and no matter how many times you take the trouble to type that pointless nonsense out ;) )

#174 ro!

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:48 AM

For sure there's argument to be made if (probably 'when' since they have asked the IJ the permissible cooperation boundaries) OR does enter a collaboration. But it's not that dissimilar from ETNZ and LR in that everyone will be trying to beat each other after 2012 ends and the heat rises in 2013. ETNZ can reasonably be said to be on the verge of building not just the two allowed, but two identical boats in 2012, and a third to launch in 2013. OR, or anyone, has a long way to go before stretching it that far. Whatever the 'design sharing' limits are, by the Protocol they apply to all competitors with no differentiation between Challengers, Defender candidates, or cross-collaborations, until Dec 31 '12.

It will be a bigger issue if a Chall team that engaged with OR went on to beat out all other Challengers, win the LVC, then lose the AC. But we're not exactly anywhere near that point, are we?

Branson may or may not bring much to the table; as with about every sponsorship contract around, it'll probably be proprietary, unless like with Prada subsidiary LR it is required by stock exchange regulations to be publicly disclosed. If we have no idea the (say) Brit financing details, then yes I'm sure some will just assume that therefore Larry found another hole to dump money into..

(And: 15 teams did try to enter and probably unlike you, some of us can accurately account for at least 12 of them. Did anyone predict they would all survive, let alone announce themselves? Nope, and no matter how many times you take the trouble to type that pointless nonsense out ;) )


Seems like you are making a case for larry to fund a challenger when funding a defender series would be the American way...

15 teams did try to enter?..but you can accurately count 12... accurately counting 12 when 8 are bullshit is not accurate... and if you don't even expect them to announce themselves why count them in the first place?
you predicted 36 45's.. no matter how you try to spin it up..

#175 ~Stingray~

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:13 AM

No idea WTF your real point is, but Yes 15 teams did file entries by the March deadline, and I could probably guess all 15 of them, now knowing that ADM had also filed. LR, and the rumored Brit one, are likely numbers 16 and 17.

On AC45's I guessed a minimum of 16. 15 have already been built and we don't know how many more might happen. Again, so what the fuck's your real point - are you trying to play man instead of ball? If so, then you must be looking forward to another painful year!

And I never said LE was going to fund anyone's AC72, you did. Will he? Hellifiknow, and you sure as shit don't either, apparently! What I do know is what I pointed to, the Protocol that ~all~ are governed by equally as competitors, wrt design sharing provisions.

I would be pretty skeptical of the VS tweets on this, so far. The Simmer mention is a detail that could suggest veracity but VS (and others) have been all over the map even BA wise; otoh I can point to IM saying he expected a response by OR to the ETNZ/LR collaboration, and to Cayard's article in the latest Seahorse expecting it too; while you can apparently point only at me? Lmao

#176 Te Kooti

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:56 AM

So ... poms in bed with the yankie defender!

Ha!

Hah, ha, ha .... haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!



#177 Xlot

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 09:58 AM

Thompson lumps the possibility of 'some response' by Oracle into the same paragraph as the possibility of other parties entering.

Thoughts on that (yes - maybe long shot) possibility:
+ It would (if an OR collaboration were to happen) be even more unprecedented than ETNZ/LR (since OR is defending) but would also still fall within the rules, being as everyone is lumped as a 'competitor' in this regard.


The obvious answer - if OR felt threatened - would be a sockpuppet second defender ..

+ But what would the payoff for OR be? The ability (as ETNZ also touts) to two-boat test B1's ?


Please, everybody (and that includes RG): the payoff is not two-boat testing, Stan Honey's 2cm-resolution instrumentation makes that largely redundant and there's plenty of time for that in the later stages anyway. It's related to doubling heavily restricted initial sailing time: learning to sail the beast, reliability - and that's priceless. Why do you think Dalts stressed first boats will be identical - to please Patrizio?(deleted in deference to ncs ;) )


Well, it was an easy one .. Had it been a second defender, B1 would have been handed over as soon as it had exhausted its meaningful life (30 sailing days). With a sockpuppet challenger it's slightly more expensive, but more useful as well:

- OR still sails B1 for 30 days from July 1 and hands it over. The S.C. is allowed to sail it by Prot 29.3, although it's not a Cup-legal boat

- sometime between July and February the S.C. borrows hull molds and laminates his. Once replaced, the boat is legal and may a ) provide further (if covert) comparison data versus B2 from February onwards and b ) bring mischief to the LVC

#178 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:38 AM

ALL4ONE: c'est fini, no big news though .....

http://www.voilesetv...e-de-lamerica-/

#179 acintel

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:48 AM

In essence, Kandler says he couldn't get the proper funding because 1) the amounts are too high and 2) there is no guarantee/visibility on the AC45 programme. He must be grateful to ACXX.

Interesting. OK maybe he forgets that people simply fon't want to get involved with a team unable to demonstrate professionalism, vision and competence.

#180 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:56 AM

Olivier de Kersauzon has not been of great help...

#181 maxmini

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:54 AM

If team china continues to count on a volunteer ( non paid ) crew they won't last much longer either .