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AC34's "Liveline" race graphics


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#101 nav

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:36 AM

So I thought that while things are quiet I'd put up some shots of the poor buggers stuck inside - dedicated to Oysterhead/AT.

If s/he or a mate has time maybe they could clarify some of the roles here, (like LL camera controller).
Posted Image




Series begins on the previous page......




Author: Ricardo Pinto
Description: 10/08/2011 - Cascais (PRT) - 34th America's Cup - AC World Series - Cascais 2011 - TV Compound
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.


Posted Image

#102 nav

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:38 AM

Author: Ricardo Pinto
Description: 10/08/2011 - Cascais (PRT) - 34th America's Cup - AC World Series - Cascais 2011 - TV Compound
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.

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#103 nav

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:47 AM

Author: Ricardo Pinto
Description: 10/08/2011 - Cascais (PRT) - 34th America's Cup - AC World Series - Cascais 2011 - TV Compound
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.


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#104 nav

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:50 AM

Author: Ricardo Pinto
Description: 10/08/2011 - Cascais (PRT) - 34th America's Cup - AC World Series - Cascais 2011 - TV Compound
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.



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#105 nav

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:59 AM

Author: Ricardo Pinto
Description: 10/08/2011 - Cascais (PRT) - 34th America's Cup - AC World Series - Cascais 2011 - TV Compound
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.




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#106 Rennmaus

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:00 AM

So I thought that while things are quiet I'd put up some shots of the poor buggers stuck inside - dedicated to Oysterhead/AT.

If s/he or a mate has time maybe they could clarify some of the roles here, (like LL camera controller).
Posted Image


Series begins on the previous page......



Author: Ricardo Pinto
Description: 10/08/2011 - Cascais (PRT) - 34th America's Cup - AC World Series - Cascais 2011 - TV Compound
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.


Posted Image

The shaving room, no?

#107 GoinCoastal

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:58 AM

Hi Nav,
I'm not sure when Oyster will be back online, so I thought I'd jump in here and just let you know that none of the photos attached show the LL crew. Could be because Oyster is so ugly. :) Also thought I'd let you know that the LL camera operator is on the helicopter with the LL equipment. Oyster verbally suggests changes to the camera shot as well a helicopter position during the show via radio.

I also work on the LL crew, but on the 'other' end. My position installs and maintains the technical equipment on the race boats, so Oyster can push the buttons and bring it to you. There's quite a few of us sailors on the LL crew. Glad you all are enjoying the product so far. It will continue to improve as the regattas go on. There is a tremendous amount of expertise devoted to it. Stay tuned.

#108 nav

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:55 PM

Hi Nav,
I'm not sure when Oyster will be back online, so I thought I'd jump in here and just let you know that none of the photos attached show the LL crew. Could be because Oyster is so ugly. :) Also thought I'd let you know that the LL camera operator is on the helicopter with the LL equipment. Oyster verbally suggests changes to the camera shot as well a helicopter position during the show via radio.

I also work on the LL crew, but on the 'other' end. My position installs and maintains the technical equipment on the race boats, so Oyster can push the buttons and bring it to you. There's quite a few of us sailors on the LL crew. Glad you all are enjoying the product so far. It will continue to improve as the regattas go on. There is a tremendous amount of expertise devoted to it. Stay tuned.


Welcome aboard. Thanks for the info.

Here are a few for your crew then and one for the chopper camera operators.

Author: Gilles Martin-Raget
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

#109 EaglesPDX

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 01:28 PM

So I thought that while things are quiet I'd put up some shots of the poor buggers stuck inside - dedicated to Oysterhead/AT.If s/he or a mate has time maybe they could clarify some of the roles here, (like LL camera controller).


These are all available to the public on the America's Cup site, just click the AC Media button in the upper right corner.

http://www.americascupmedia.com/

#110 nav

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 01:28 PM


An ugly bunch indeed!
Posted Image


Author: Gilles Martin-Raget
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.


Posted Image

#111 nav

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 04:05 PM

Ok great, AC.com has done their own story to go with the photos: http://www.americasc...scenes-at-ACTV/


BEHIND THE SCENES AT ACTV - MARK SHEFFIELD
POSTED ON 23 AUGUST 2011

America’s Cup TV made its debut at the inaugural America’s Cup World Series event in Cascais, Portugal. The goal was to leave fans on the edge of their seats with this thrilling ‘feel like you are on the AC45 hanging on for dear life’ technology.

Mark Sheffield, On Board Media Manager, plays an integral part in this newly developed media as he created the electronics that go into each on-board tracking system and it’s required technology to help capture the thrill for spectators.

Posted ImageSheffield is an America’s Cup veteran racer from England. He knows the game of sailing inside out, and as a result understands what it takes to bring the 34th America’s Cup to the next level. Sheffield joined the America’s Cup team in January of this year, but his wheels for this type of tracking system have been spinning for a while.

On his first day at work he hit the ground running with his premeditated conceptual ideas on source cables, connectors, and external electronic looms to demo on the tracking peli system. The peli is the on board tracking equipment that is responsible for telling us exactly where each boat – AC45, Race Committee support boat, or Jury Jet Ski.

After trying a few different connections, as well as, building some specialized looms on the GPS Sheffield found the magic lines and began working with a design team to integrate the tracking systems into the AC45 yacht design.

The main difference between the tracking system on the AC45s and the support boats is color, and the AC45s have an IMU inertia tracking system. The peli cases on each boat are held in place with carbon brackets. They are installed each morning before racing, which takes about 30 minutes apiece. At the end of the race day the equipment is fully broken down and service is performed where necessary.

All of the onboard cameras are of the highest quality, as reliability and keeping issues to a minimum is important. Sheffield’s work over the past year is impressive, and looks like he has been working on this electronics project for much longer than eight months.

He works closely with eight other members of the ACTV team, including: SIS, LiveLine, Graphic Designers, Cameramen, and software engineers. This team is fully responsible for the tracking of the boats, the on board cameras, and the graphics that we will see on TV.

When asked about the next challenges, Sheffield said, “We will continue to maximize our ability to work well as a team, we will develop a good maintenance program, and from there we can create and develop new ideas to really bring racing off the water to TV like we have never seen before.”

After completion of our first World Series event in Cascais we can say that all of Sheffield’s hard work has certainly paid off in an exciting way. We are looking forward to more live coverage in Plymouth 10-18 September. Tune into americascup.com or youtube.com/americas cup for live footage and replays!

- Sarah Hawkins



#112 EaglesPDX

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 01:57 PM

A model for presentation is DirectTV's NFL Sunday Ticket (calling Stan Honey).

They offer NFL to Go which is watching any NFL game on any device any where. My computer, my laptop, my iPad, my iPhone. I can switch from game to game (think cam/audio feeds from each boat or Liveline overall presentation or the main video broadcast).

AC34 probably has this covered via the work with YouTube/Google and the plan to offer multiple channels of the live race on YouTube. They do need to work on the iPhone/iPad issues (the likely most popular mobile viewing option) as race wasn't viewable on the iP's due to repackaging of the YouTube feed on the AC34 website.

#113 Xlot

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 03:06 PM


An ugly bunch indeed!
Posted Image


Author: Gilles Martin-Raget
Restriction: For Editorial only - All other rights reserved - Photographer's credit mandatory.


Posted Image


Lemme get this straight: this bunch (plus a few missing) is exclusively dedicated to TV production ??

#114 Stingray

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 03:12 PM

^ That would be my guess, yes.

I think someone said in an interview that around 100 are involved, that's just about the number in this photo.

Some may be there for just setup and takedown, employees of companies being contracted by ACA.

I wonder what the new two level building is for, in Plymouth?

#115 pjfranks

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 03:31 PM

^ That would be my guess, yes.

I think someone said in an interview that around 100 are involved, that's just about the number in this photo.

Some may be there for just setup and takedown, employees of companies being contracted by ACA.

I wonder what the new two level building is for, in Plymouth?

A beer festival?

#116 Stingray

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 03:55 PM


I wonder what the new two level building is for, in Plymouth?

A beer festival?

Ha - Could be.

There's a big musical lineup coming in for it, perhaps it will be used for some of that partying? One of them, Wille and the Bandits, has been opening for Bonamassa on tour, could be a good act to catch.
link

#117 Xlot

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 05:22 PM

WARNING: this post deals with economic sustainability. Those (in addition to SR) who find the subject irrelevant/irritating are advised to skip it.

Can anybody tell me how the picture above compares with the TV production team Bernie Ecclestone brings to F1 events? Now, a recent polemic reminds me good old Bernie gets £45M in TV rights from the UK alone, a similar figure from Italy, all in all I believe something in the €250M/yr range.

Also, I'd say such a pharaonic organization matches well yesterday's picture of ACalphabet's VIP lounge. IMHO, however, it's a jarring contrast with 'church mouse row' whose teams, after all, are supposed to provide over half of the show ..

#118 Stingray

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 05:33 PM

Is your point that you want ACA to put less into the TV production?

If so then as a fan who probably won't attend all the ACWS venues, why would you want that?

Various people involved have said from the outset they were going to invest in making the broadcasting good, I'm pretty happy with how well even the first event went, think it will improve too.

#119 dogwatch

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 06:11 PM

pharaonic organization


Blimey. Do they know they will be entombed with LE when he dies?

#120 Xlot

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 06:36 PM

Is your point that you want ACA to put less into the TV production?
If so then as a fan who probably won't attend all the ACWS venues, why would you want that?


Is your point: "as long as Uncle Larry's paying, sit back and enjoy"? Sounds reasonable, but for a small detail.

The way things are shaping up now, one thing is clear: AC34 will not turn a profit. Unless, that is, the too-good-to-be-true $270M 'guaranteed' sponsorship in SF becomes reality - odd I'm the only one who keeps harping about that Sword of Damocles.
But even with that, once you deduct LL development, TV production expenses vs. zero income, the rest of ACalphabet's plethoric organization, the WS sinkhole, very little money will remain in the kitty.

Now, compare that with what a prudent organization would have been: racing limited to the LVC/AC in SF (which is all the general public cares about), just an improved VE, lean staff. Would have made a world of difference, it's not a stretch to say 'serious' teams are being robbed.

#121 Stingray

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 06:56 PM


Is your point that you want ACA to put less into the TV production?
If so then as a fan who probably won't attend all the ACWS venues, why would you want that?


Is your point: "as long as Uncle Larry's paying, sit back and enjoy"? Sounds reasonable, but for a small detail.

The way things are shaping up now, one thing is clear: AC34 will not turn a profit. Unless, that is, the too-good-to-be-true $270M 'guaranteed' sponsorship in SF becomes reality - odd I'm the only one who keeps harping about that Sword of Damocles.
But even with that, once you deduct LL development, TV production expenses, the rest of ACalphabet's plethoric organization, the WS sinkhole, very little money will remain in the kitty.

Now, compare that with what a prudent organization would have been: racing limited to the LVC/AC in SF (which is all the general public cares about), just an improved VE, lean staff. Would have made a world of difference, it's not a stretch to say 'serious' teams are being robbed.

So your argument is to spend less money on TV production, and give that money to your 'church mouse' teams?

Seems to me it is ACA's call for how best to invest the event money and they have as one of their missions a big boost in broadcast production capabilities. I'd think all teams will benefit by having that kind of coverage, come the LVC and AC in SF. Long term, hopefully the larger AC - and even trickle down effects to other sailing coverage - will too.

The 'serious' teams are racing for the Cup anyway, not for some % of the kitty that even in AC32's case amounted to an average of just a few million per team in the end.

I'm sure they have a small army of business strategy, marketing and accounting professionals on board too, but how exciting a photo would those geeks make? :)

If you're worried about the $270M in sponsorships, it's very unlikely we will know the business proprietary numbers from the likes of LV, Puma, Garmin, NBC, or whoever. But it does seem likely we will be able to follow that overall number to some overall level of detail, since the $270M is tied in to publicly transparent SF arrangements. I hope they meet it but again - if Larry takes a bit of a shower then why on earth should or would you or I care about 'harping on about that Sword of Damocles?'

If you are into project management then... apply to ACA, maybe they could use your advice :)

#122 EaglesPDX

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 07:32 PM

WARNING: this post deals with economic sustainability.



Which means it has noting to do with the America's Cup since it is not a sporting event that will ever be economically self sustaining. It has none of the necessary aspects of the leagues such as stability of teams, owners, events, number of events or organization.

Can anybody tell me how the picture above compares with the TV production team Bernie Ecclestone brings to F1 events?


Quality of the picture, high definition, and graphics, Liveline etc. are superior to F1. AC34 graphics team have certainly move sports live video a step ahead of even the well financed leagues.

Now, a recent polemic reminds me good old Bernie gets £45M in TV rights from the UK alone, a similar figure from Italy, all in all I believe something in the €250M/yr range.


Could certainly see America's Cup matching those numbers, which says a lot about the ability of the America's Cup to reach a paying audience. It is certainly fair to speculate that 1M viewers would pay $50 for 24/7 Liveline presentation with multiple choice of PNP for individual boat audio/visual feeds. Plus the Google ads revenue for the free videos. Certainly easy to see America's Cup getting $250M per year if done right with basic/free and then levels of features with increasing levels of subscription fees.

But Ellison is dropping $500M easy in putting on the AC45 and AC72 final races not including the $200-$300M he is spending to defend the cup. But future Cups utilizing the paid for Liveline etc graphics and video hard/software and with existing fleet of AC45's and AC72's, future races might be able to approach break even as far running the races with the YouTube/Google video feeds pulling in $100-$250M.

#123 nav

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 08:13 PM

Xlot, to answer your question, yes I reckon that's the TV crew, presumably including our correspondents Oysterhead and GoinCoastal.

SR, I posted a shot of the two story Taj Mahal yesterday along with the VIP Schmoozefest documents that indicate what I assume it's intended for - (as per Cascais - posted picks of that hangout too). 'VIP' Lounge upstairs, poor 'Executive' members downstairs??

EpdX, $250 million! Posted ImagePosted Image Whaddaya smokin' Bro?

#124 Stingray

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 08:30 PM

Thanks, nav.

And yes, those Eagles numbers are crazy-level :)

Your mention of Oysterhead and GoinCoastal reminded me of a post somewhere by one of them (think it was Oysterhead, am on a phone screen or would look) where he suggested that if LL does not add enough broadcast value then it may receive less funding, than if otherwise. So maybe that's an indication of the 'lean' that Xlot is for whatever reason pressing for.

#125 EaglesPDX

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 08:35 PM

EpdX, $250 million!


Seems easily achievable revenue with focus on web broadcasting and subscription services.

Projecting the 3M who paid for subscription viewing for the America's Cup in 1987 forward to 2012, fair to say that is a likely a 10M base.

My NFL Sunday Ticket is $700 plus $60 for NFL to Go to see the TV broadcast on laptop/iPad/Phone. That's 16 weeks one day a week (16 event view days) vs. AC34's eight weeks with average of 4 races per week (32 event days).

$50 for the AC34 SuperTicket subscription, if 50% of the potential audience go for it there's the $250M. Add in advertising on the free basic event. Add in Google kicking in money for broadcast rights to promote its Google Share app where you and your friends watch the event in a virtual theater and exchange chat about the event you are both viewing. Easy to see a $300M payoff for America's Cup.

It can certainly provide a solid income stream to help the current America's Cup trustee put on the event. In the case of San Francisco in 2016, $100M to the city for venue. $100M for infrastructure, staff, equipment, boats. $100M to do the broadcast.

#126 nav

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 08:49 PM

Thanks, nav.

And yes, those Eagles numbers are crazy-level :)

Your mention of Oysterhead and GoinCoastal reminded me of a post somewhere by one of them (think it was Oysterhead, am on a phone screen or would look) where he suggested that if LL does not add enough broadcast value then it may receive less funding, than if otherwise. So maybe that's an indication of the 'lean' that Xlot is for whatever reason pressing for.


This whole 'big new thing' does seem like a huge leap and is surely driving the accountants crazy. F1 has been running for a century or so - it didn't reach it's present $trength and following overnight.

If you can stand the automobile analogies the A1GP is actually a better one.Posted Image

You are right, the comment that they had to earn their way was pretty telling - hope they can keep it going.

#127 Xlot

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:08 PM

If you can stand the automobile analogies the (defunct) A1GP is actually a better one.Posted Image


Very apt comparison.

#128 dogwatch

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 06:10 AM

The 'serious' teams are racing for the Cup anyway, not for some % of the kitty that even in AC32's case amounted to an average of just a few million per team in the end.


You've a short memory SR. We heard a lot from RC last summer about building the long-term team franchises that exist in other sports, that team-owners and sponsors should invest in such franchise building in the hope and expectation of commercial reward and that the ACEA structure would return money to teams in due course. TNZ does undoubtedly have such a franchise, built over several cup cycles. Not too clear anybody else could claim the same right now.

it's not a stretch to say 'serious' teams are being robbed.


You protest too much in this instance. If this were AC35 and ACEA were frittering away the vast profits made in the AC34 cycle (suspend disbelief for a moment here), then teams might have cause for complaint. Right now, it's Larry money that's being invested/wasted (select as you see fit), not theirs.

#129 EaglesPDX

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 02:25 PM

You've a short memory SR. We heard a lot from RC last summer about building the long-term team franchises that exist in other sports, that team-owners and sponsors should invest in such franchise building in the hope and expectation of commercial reward and that the ACEA structure would return money to teams in due course.


That would be recent memory of less than a year ago and you are conflating his comments about trying to build consistent revenue stream for America's Cup with one building repeat challengers. One of the fun aspects of the America's Cup has always been the infusion of new player like the many new teams coming into AC34.

The web broadcasting of the event using Liveline and the onboard individual video streams with YouTube and Google's Share application certainly has potential for a $300M income stream to defray costs for the event but expecting the event to finance the challengers is a bridge to far. Helping challengers with race infrastructure would be the extent of it.

#130 ATrimble

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 12:44 AM

Hey there LL fans. I'm writing this on a train, connecting to a bus, to two planes, to a bus, to a train and
then finally to the glorious TV compound a day from now. I've done a bit of reading on this forum to catch
up (certainly a bit covered beyond LL) and thought I'd add a general comment. (Sorry, my home hut isn't
on the wire... it's really nice to get away from things once in a while and live without interruption!)

Many of us on the crew are completely focused on doing some new - I mean really new - as in never
been done before anywhere. This involves tons of technical development, and tons of mistakes, and
lots of money. The goal of doing New Things isn't being profitable, until they work and work really well.
Yes, there is a small army in the photo of the crew and some were MIA during that 15 minutes of joy.
I don't think we could be building the system and using it live on anything close to the schedule we
have without a small army.

How many people do you think it should take to fully instrument 9 race boats, a fleet of RM boats, a fleet
of camera boats, 3 helicopters and 3-5 fixed and ENG cameras every morning and take it all back
apart every evening for cleaning/maint/battery charging? How many more people should it take to
generate 4+ simultaneous "programs", operate 50+ cameras, mix audio from 100+ sources and get
the products onto satellites in real time? Oh yes, there is also talent, highlight spots, news spots,
special shows, press conferences, food, housing, toilets... this is a Big Production.
Thankfully, someone has the vision and the capital to fund the huge risks and enjoy things when
it all comes together.

We could probably get by with a smaller team as the development phases down and the production
matures... but for now the size of the team isn't really the issue. The issue is how good those folks
are at doing the work they need to both invent and get done. I will tell you that our core team is the
most qualified crew on earth to pull together the technical details. I'll also tell you that we are really
grateful that our daily mission is totally separated from "profitability" or long term "sustainability."

Here is an example window into one of our past projects - inventing the First & Ten line for US football.
This also started out as a small army, tons of equipment, dedicated TV production trucks and cameras,
and years of challenges. The cost of building/operating this system was totally unsustainable for even
Sunday Night Football which had cash flows of tens of millions US$ per game. All of this difficulty and
expense was justified for drawing just one silly little yellow line onto live TV... However, after it worked
and worked well, it became technically feasible to shrink the whole thing into a handful of parts, two
PC's, and two people, total, operating it at any game... which made it possible to use it on College Football
games with budgets in the tens of thousands US$.

The best part of this story is that this core team cares more about sailing than we do about Some Other Sport
with money. This means that the New Things we are doing are appearing in sailing first, and someday
they may find their way into other venues. This is also why we aren't just doing another example of videotaping
a regatta. That's not what gets us excited - it's been done, many times before... and we were there too.

The sky is the limit for this event, for the next two years, to bring out some really amazing stuff... hopefully
it will bring a little more appreciation for our sport. Personally, I am really looking forward to the day when
I can choose which boat to "be aboard", on the fly, from my portable device anywhere on earth. It will sound
like I am sitting in the guest spot aft, in surround sound, and I will be able to choose my views, including
overhead shots with LL augmentation that show me things I can only imagine now...

As always, I am looking forward to input from SA members. Thank you for caring enough to write!

#131 Observer

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 01:57 AM

^ Having has some insight into the development of the "Formula 1" operation as of a few years back, it is easy to see that you guys are making great strides...the reality check-in helps everyone understand the scale of what you are trying to do...your complexity, that F1 does not have is salt water...and overall a much larger scale.

Please keep filing us in on developments, letting us know what to look out for, and asking us to feed back after each event, so you can tune it all a bot more for next time...

Absolutely Marvelous ! B)

#132 EaglesPDX

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 03:12 AM

The sky is the limit for this event, for the next two years, to bring out some really amazing stuff... hopefully
it will bring a little more appreciation for our sport. Personally, I am really looking forward to the day when
I can choose which boat to "be aboard", on the fly, from my portable device anywhere on earth. It will sound
like I am sitting in the guest spot aft, in surround sound, and I will be able to choose my views, including
overhead shots with LL augmentation that show me things I can only imagine now...


"What's going to happen Dave? Something wonderful Hal".

All I want for Christmas is my iPad App where I can have Liveline on full screen and toggle two pic in pics of the boat cam/audio feeds. Able to toggle all audios on or off. I think it's worth a $10 app and $50 subscription. Easily 2 million high tech low rollers like me in SF alone to pay the $100M tab.

#133 SW Sailor

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 05:04 AM

Hey there LL fans. I'm writing this on a train, connecting to a bus, to two planes, to a bus, to a train and
then finally to the glorious TV compound a day from now. I've done a bit of reading on this forum to catch
up (certainly a bit covered beyond LL) and thought I'd add a general comment. (Sorry, my home hut isn't
on the wire... it's really nice to get away from things once in a while and live without interruption!)

Many of us on the crew are completely focused on doing some new - I mean really new - as in never
been done before anywhere. This involves tons of technical development, and tons of mistakes, and
lots of money. The goal of doing New Things isn't being profitable, until they work and work really well.
Yes, there is a small army in the photo of the crew and some were MIA during that 15 minutes of joy.
I don't think we could be building the system and using it live on anything close to the schedule we
have without a small army.

How many people do you think it should take to fully instrument 9 race boats, a fleet of RM boats, a fleet
of camera boats, 3 helicopters and 3-5 fixed and ENG cameras every morning and take it all back
apart every evening for cleaning/maint/battery charging? How many more people should it take to
generate 4+ simultaneous "programs", operate 50+ cameras, mix audio from 100+ sources and get
the products onto satellites in real time? Oh yes, there is also talent, highlight spots, news spots,
special shows, press conferences, food, housing, toilets... this is a Big Production.
Thankfully, someone has the vision and the capital to fund the huge risks and enjoy things when
it all comes together.

We could probably get by with a smaller team as the development phases down and the production
matures... but for now the size of the team isn't really the issue. The issue is how good those folks
are at doing the work they need to both invent and get done. I will tell you that our core team is the
most qualified crew on earth to pull together the technical details. I'll also tell you that we are really
grateful that our daily mission is totally separated from "profitability" or long term "sustainability."

Here is an example window into one of our past projects - inventing the First & Ten line for US football.
This also started out as a small army, tons of equipment, dedicated TV production trucks and cameras,
and years of challenges. The cost of building/operating this system was totally unsustainable for even
Sunday Night Football which had cash flows of tens of millions US$ per game. All of this difficulty and
expense was justified for drawing just one silly little yellow line onto live TV... However, after it worked
and worked well, it became technically feasible to shrink the whole thing into a handful of parts, two
PC's, and two people, total, operating it at any game... which made it possible to use it on College Football
games with budgets in the tens of thousands US$.

The best part of this story is that this core team cares more about sailing than we do about Some Other Sport
with money. This means that the New Things we are doing are appearing in sailing first, and someday
they may find their way into other venues. This is also why we aren't just doing another example of videotaping
a regatta. That's not what gets us excited - it's been done, many times before... and we were there too.

The sky is the limit for this event, for the next two years, to bring out some really amazing stuff... hopefully
it will bring a little more appreciation for our sport. Personally, I am really looking forward to the day when
I can choose which boat to "be aboard", on the fly, from my portable device anywhere on earth. It will sound
like I am sitting in the guest spot aft, in surround sound, and I will be able to choose my views, including
overhead shots with LL augmentation that show me things I can only imagine now...

As always, I am looking forward to input from SA members. Thank you for caring enough to write!

Thanks for dumping a bit of chlorine into the cesspool to restore reality.

Really appreciate your efforts and insight and all that is under development.



#134 dogwatch

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 06:49 AM

How many people do you think it should take to fully instrument 9 race boats, a fleet of RM boats, a fleet
of camera boats, 3 helicopters and 3-5 fixed and ENG cameras every morning and take it all back
apart every evening for cleaning/maint/battery charging?


I think you've missed the point as to the remarks on the size of the team. It's not how many people should it take to do what's being done. It's the sustainability of doing it at all. Particularly given that the ACWS is only really a side-show to what most of us are actually interested in, the LVC and the AC itself, and it's looking likely there will be only three teams with the $$ to compete (as in, be competitive, not necessarily as in, just be there).

The other critiques lie in whether changing the sport from something that works for competitors into something that works for TV is desirable, particularly when it is questionable how well it can ever work for TV, and whether changing the AC into a marketing vehicle respects its historical character.

This is also why we aren't just doing another example of videotaping
a regatta. That's not what gets us excited - it's been done, many times before... and we were there too.


It's not really about what makes you excited though, is it?

However, after it worked
and worked well, it became technically feasible to shrink the whole thing into a handful of parts, two
PC's, and two people, total, operating it at any game... which made it possible to use it on College Football
games with budgets in the tens of thousands US$.


On that, I guess we'll see. Seems to me that the nature of sailing and the "arena" in which it takes place will never make for cheap television and the complexity of the sport will never make for compelling television. I guess we are in an experiment to find out. But thanks for coming here to comment.

#135 Xlot

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:30 AM

But thanks for coming here to comment.


Yes, that's the main thing: personally, I tend to agree with dogwatch, but I'm quite willing to be proven wrong. And oysterhead's posts are a pleasure to read.

#136 EaglesPDX

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 12:53 PM

I think you've missed the point as to the remarks on the size of the team.


Actually Oysterman directly addresses that point.

The cost of building/operating this system was totally unsustainable for even
Sunday Night Football which had cash flows of tens of millions US$ per game. All of this difficulty and
expense was justified for drawing just one silly little yellow line onto live TV... However, after it worked
and worked well, it became technically feasible to shrink the whole thing into a handful of parts, two
PC's, and two people, total, operating it at any game... which made it possible to use it on College Football
games with budgets in the tens of thousands US$.



#137 Stingray

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:29 PM

Good piece here
http://sailmagazine.com/racing/navigating_the_future/

FLOATING FIRST DOWNS

The surprising thing about creating real-time video graphics for the America’s Cup isn’t that it’s complex, but that it’s so incredibly complex. “The yellow first-down line in football is a good illustration of the difficulties of augmenting reality on video,” Honey says. “For the illusion to succeed, the electronic line that we insert has to lie absolutely parallel to the white yard lines that actually exist on the grass. But a football field is crowned, so the real lines are not ‘straight’ when they appear on television. We have to duplicate exactly that curvature.

“Television cameras also have terrific lenses, very sharp, but with lots of distortion. They vary from 10 percent pincushion distortion to 10 percent barrel distortion as you zoom in and out. Viewers are conditioned to accept that. So we have to draw the yellow line in a curve to correspond to the distortion of the lens while simultaneously correcting for the crown of the field. Then there are the college stadiums where they hang camera baskets from the bleachers, and the students jump along with the cheerleaders and the stands bounce. We use inertial sensors to measure the bounce of the stands and therefore the bounce of the camera. That allows us to ‘bounce’ the yellow line in synch, so it appears to never move.”



#138 sunseeker

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:16 AM

Hey there LL fans. I'm writing this on a train, connecting to a bus, to two planes, to a bus, to a train and
then finally to the glorious TV compound a day from now. I've done a bit of reading on this forum to catch
up (certainly a bit covered beyond LL) and thought I'd add a general comment. (Sorry, my home hut isn't
on the wire... it's really nice to get away from things once in a while and live without interruption!)

Many of us on the crew are completely focused on doing some new - I mean really new - as in never
been done before anywhere. This involves tons of technical development, and tons of mistakes, and
lots of money. The goal of doing New Things isn't being profitable, until they work and work really well.
Yes, there is a small army in the photo of the crew and some were MIA during that 15 minutes of joy.
I don't think we could be building the system and using it live on anything close to the schedule we
have without a small army.

How many people do you think it should take to fully instrument 9 race boats, a fleet of RM boats, a fleet
of camera boats, 3 helicopters and 3-5 fixed and ENG cameras every morning and take it all back
apart every evening for cleaning/maint/battery charging? How many more people should it take to
generate 4+ simultaneous "programs", operate 50+ cameras, mix audio from 100+ sources and get
the products onto satellites in real time? Oh yes, there is also talent, highlight spots, news spots,
special shows, press conferences, food, housing, toilets... this is a Big Production.
Thankfully, someone has the vision and the capital to fund the huge risks and enjoy things when
it all comes together.

We could probably get by with a smaller team as the development phases down and the production
matures... but for now the size of the team isn't really the issue. The issue is how good those folks
are at doing the work they need to both invent and get done. I will tell you that our core team is the
most qualified crew on earth to pull together the technical details. I'll also tell you that we are really
grateful that our daily mission is totally separated from "profitability" or long term "sustainability."

Here is an example window into one of our past projects - inventing the First & Ten line for US football.
This also started out as a small army, tons of equipment, dedicated TV production trucks and cameras,
and years of challenges. The cost of building/operating this system was totally unsustainable for even
Sunday Night Football which had cash flows of tens of millions US$ per game. All of this difficulty and
expense was justified for drawing just one silly little yellow line onto live TV... However, after it worked
and worked well, it became technically feasible to shrink the whole thing into a handful of parts, two
PC's, and two people, total, operating it at any game... which made it possible to use it on College Football
games with budgets in the tens of thousands US$.

The best part of this story is that this core team cares more about sailing than we do about Some Other Sport
with money. This means that the New Things we are doing are appearing in sailing first, and someday
they may find their way into other venues. This is also why we aren't just doing another example of videotaping
a regatta. That's not what gets us excited - it's been done, many times before... and we were there too.

The sky is the limit for this event, for the next two years, to bring out some really amazing stuff... hopefully
it will bring a little more appreciation for our sport. Personally, I am really looking forward to the day when
I can choose which boat to "be aboard", on the fly, from my portable device anywhere on earth. It will sound
like I am sitting in the guest spot aft, in surround sound, and I will be able to choose my views, including
overhead shots with LL augmentation that show me things I can only imagine now...

As always, I am looking forward to input from SA members. Thank you for caring enough to write!


All of this technology is somewhat interesting, but, I don't need to know how a movie is made, particularly one with alot of CGI, or how music that makes a hottie shake her money maker is actually made, whether on Garageband, or with Danger Mouse at the controls in a massive studio, or with three guys and their guitars and one drummer - all I want to know is that I am entertained.

Pretty pictures in and of themselves, with all the self controls a viewer on whatever boat they want is of some interest, but, in the larger view of things, I'm more interested in the story of the people who compete.

Right now, the story seems to be about the people behind the technology, and far less about actual sailors and sailing.

This isn't your fault, because the "story" is controlled by others, and they seem to not know what story they need to tell, except most of the time when it is about themselves.

While you might enjoy being the beneficiary of Larry's money for this science project, I have to tell you, there is no one I know who actively races sailboats (unless they have a potential economic benefit from selling something to the Cup community) that even knows these events are going on, let alone cares about them. Liveline, or multiple cameras on boats that a viewer might be able to control is not going to gain their attention, only a compelling story is going to do, and sorry to say, the audience for geeking out on how you paint lines on the water is not very big.

Good luck with all this, but so far, other than a few fanboys here, I know of no one who cares about all of this technology.

#139 Stingray

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:24 AM

^ Could be just a fan of technology but I do appreciate this aspect of it all, very much. Ignore, if you like - your choice to not be curious :)

#140 Observer

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:41 AM

^^ I'm a fan boy...a large percentage of people out there with iPads are also likely fan boys/girls...they like smart technology. The individual components are on there own impressive (if only in potential as they are developed).

What will attract the big audience is the whole package tied up in a seamless bow (of smartness)...that in the end they wont even notice it, but just say..."that's cool", getting it that subtle, as Stan says, like with the first down line sophistication will make it so. Its its tacky looking is will wreck the effect, and just come across a a gimmick.

#141 sunseeker

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:05 AM

^^ I'm a fan boy...a large percentage of people out there with iPads are also likely fan boys/girls...they like smart technology. The individual components are on there own impressive (if only in potential as they are developed).

What will attract the big audience is the whole package tied up in a seamless bow (of smartness)...that in the end they wont even notice it, but just say..."that's cool", getting it that subtle, as Stan says, like with the first down line sophistication will make it so. Its its tacky looking is will wreck the effect, and just come across a a gimmick.


Thank you for basically making my point.

ACEA needs to stop talking about technology they are trying to make work, and just make it work.

Speaking of iPads, when was the last time a killer app was dissected six ways to Sunday while it was in development.

Has anything Apple ever done been made public before it was released, and when it was released, it was nearly perfect. And always cool.

What we have now is the world's most expensive tv production experiment, without a storyline, other than the geeks behind the technology, and the guys in the suits fleecing Larry for their ego stroke.

To brag that it is great to not have to think about profitability suggests to me that Oysterhead needs to better understand from where the comes for him to have his fun.

#142 EaglesPDX

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:16 AM

^ Could be just a fan of technology but I do appreciate this aspect of it all, very much. Ignore, if you like - your choice to not be curious :)


The technology is a story in itself. Note that NY Times big spread on AC34 in the BUSINESS SECTION was about the application of broadcast technology to sailing. Likewise the WIRED pieces which is going to be part of a series. Sailing, especially this sailing, is high tech it is why Oracle is the holder of the Cup and why NFL's Stan Honey is tech master and the boats themselves are the best technology sailing can offer.

Technology has always been an integral part of the America's Cup. It is based on the deployment of the most advanced sailing technology available from America to USA17.

When the first tracking programs for America's Cup, Whitbread and Around Alone came out, it was the sailors who enjoyed it the most.

#143 sunseeker

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:40 AM


^ Could be just a fan of technology but I do appreciate this aspect of it all, very much. Ignore, if you like - your choice to not be curious :)


The technology is a story in itself. Note that NY Times big spread on AC34 in the BUSINESS SECTION was about the application of broadcast technology to sailing. Likewise the WIRED pieces which is going to be part of a series. Sailing, especially this sailing, is high tech it is why Oracle is the holder of the Cup and why NFL's Stan Honey is tech master and the boats themselves are the best technology sailing can offer.

Technology has always been an integral part of the America's Cup. It is based on the deployment of the most advanced sailing technology available from America to USA17.

When the first tracking programs for America's Cup, Whitbread and Around Alone came out, it was the sailors who enjoyed it the most.


Eagles, really, who is paying you to post this continued crap?

When was Stan Honey an employee of the NFL. Cite, please.

The boats themselves are not the "best technology", at least in a universal sense, which your statement implies. The AC 45's are very interesting on a very small, closed course, in relatively flat water. They are designed for one thing, and one thing only. That does not make them the "best technology". That makes the best boat for that particular type of course, on that type of water.

And yes, technology has been a big part of the Cup since the beginning.

But seriously, how does TV technology help a team win a yacht race? It simply has no role to play in terms of developing boatspeed, or tactics.

And I ask again, who is paying you to post here?

#144 Hank Chinaski

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:10 AM



^ Could be just a fan of technology but I do appreciate this aspect of it all, very much. Ignore, if you like - your choice to not be curious :)


The technology is a story in itself. Note that NY Times big spread on AC34 in the BUSINESS SECTION was about the application of broadcast technology to sailing. Likewise the WIRED pieces which is going to be part of a series. Sailing, especially this sailing, is high tech it is why Oracle is the holder of the Cup and why NFL's Stan Honey is tech master and the boats themselves are the best technology sailing can offer.

Technology has always been an integral part of the America's Cup. It is based on the deployment of the most advanced sailing technology available from America to USA17.

When the first tracking programs for America's Cup, Whitbread and Around Alone came out, it was the sailors who enjoyed it the most.


Eagles, really, who is paying you to post this continued crap?

When was Stan Honey an employee of the NFL. Cite, please.

The boats themselves are not the "best technology", at least in a universal sense, which your statement implies. The AC 45's are very interesting on a very small, closed course, in relatively flat water. They are designed for one thing, and one thing only. That does not make them the "best technology". That makes the best boat for that particular type of course, on that type of water.

And yes, technology has been a big part of the Cup since the beginning.

But seriously, how does TV technology help a team win a yacht race? It simply has no role to play in terms of developing boatspeed, or tactics.

And I ask again, who is paying you to post here?



#145 Hank Chinaski

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:32 AM

Sorry for the double post.

Sunseeker, your logic would also lead one to say that Department of Defense technology wouldn't help a team win a yacht race. Think that one over for a minute.

Some of us racing sailors are also geeks. I remember being ridiculed by traditionalists for using a HP calculator to reduce my sun sights. Now every one of those guys has a GPS.

Don't get down on those that are interested in things you're not. We'll all be watching the races from Plymouth to San Francisco, each of us enjoying them for different reasons... and some of the same.

Lighten the fuck up.

#146 dogwatch

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:40 AM

But seriously, how does TV technology help a team win a yacht race?


By attracting the fans.

Who attract the sponsors.

Who pay for the boat.

Which wins the race.

That, anyway, is the theory.

If you aren't interested in this subject, don't read the fucking thread. It's not homework. There won't be a test afterwards. You don't have to be here.

#147 Hank Chinaski

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:46 AM

Oysterhead,
Please push for knots along with KM/hour and MPH. Don't let them dumb it down for non-sailors. Any chance of getting VMG as well? Maybe you can have a more high tech feed.
Keep up the great work.

#148 ATrimble

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:58 AM

Oysterhead,
Please push for knots along with KM/hour and MPH. Don't let them dumb it down for non-sailors. Any chance of getting VMG as well? Maybe you can have a more high tech feed.
Keep up the great work.


As things evolve here, and the execs get a chance to actually sail on the boats in the event they are
out selling every day, the general level of understanding about sailing, including units and terminology
is improving. While the intitial directive about style was to focus on bringing in the larger non-sailing
audience, that directive is now shifting towards satisfying the educated sailing audience at the same time.
This opens the door to actually using words, acronyms and concepts that most people reading these
forums appreciate.
The choice of producing multiple simultaneous feeds and having four separate, but linked, production
control rooms allows some flexibility in addressing the challenges of educating and entertaining people
worldwide, whether or not they know anything about sailing or speak english.
Just to warm your hearts, here are some sailing things "on the list" to integrate into LL graphical
elements: VMG, VMC, headed, lifted, knots.... They have always been there, as we sailors on the
team know they need to be - but we couldn't start there and work backwards into generality.

And, just in case anyone out there is wondering, all of us techheads on the team are extremely grateful
that the crazy investment in time we are personally making isn't also stretched in the direction of sales,
marketing and accounting. We do have a real budget, with real constraints and a complex administrative
process to get things done... but we don't have to justify what we are doing daily to a room full of sponsors,
bankers or venture funders.

#149 ATrimble

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:35 AM



^ Could be just a fan of technology but I do appreciate this aspect of it all, very much. Ignore, if you like - your choice to not be curious :)


The technology is a story in itself. Note that NY Times big spread on AC34 in the BUSINESS SECTION was about the application of broadcast technology to sailing. Likewise the WIRED pieces which is going to be part of a series. Sailing, especially this sailing, is high tech it is why Oracle is the holder of the Cup and why NFL's Stan Honey is tech master and the boats themselves are the best technology sailing can offer.

Technology has always been an integral part of the America's Cup. It is based on the deployment of the most advanced sailing technology available from America to USA17.

When the first tracking programs for America's Cup, Whitbread and Around Alone came out, it was the sailors who enjoyed it the most.


But seriously, how does TV technology help a team win a yacht race? It simply has no role to play in terms of developing boatspeed, or tactics.


Ever since the 1992 Cup, when we built the first successful real time tracking/graphics TV system for sailing,
the teams have been deeply involved in the design, implementation and use of these systems. Why? Because they
want to win and they want to have every advantage possible - or at least that no one has a special advantage. The
amount of time, money, and personnel involved in telemetry, spying, data collection, and performance analysis
in past events is staggering, and was probably worth it in terms of resuls.

In this series, ALL of the data coming to/from the yachts is via the TV systems. There are no "team installed/owned" instruments
onboard. Also, ALL of the data is being made publicly available, unfiltered, in real time, for anyone to develop applications -
inlcuding the teams themselves for performance/ tactical analysis.

That is how TV technology can help teams level the playing field and develop the skills to win... never mind the sponsorship
possibilities (give the data to your sponsors and let them develop and promote the next killer app)

There really aren't too many other events out there where everyone (fans and competitors) is supplied (live) with 10hz, <2cm, x,y,z, pitch, roll,
and yaw data from mil-spec GPS and inertial nav units for all the competitors, wind data from an entire fleet of race management boats,
and the video/audio...

#150 Stingray

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:22 AM

If you have a pointer to the race datasets we have seen written about, and a spreadsheet or other app that can import them, or if you could post those, then... Please do :)

#151 BogusScum

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:00 AM

If you have a pointer to the race datasets we have seen written about, and a spreadsheet or other app that can import them, or if you could post those, then... Please do :)


I agree with Singer - can I get a link to that? Do they publish an API? Is that embodied as a webservice? More details please.

#152 EaglesPDX

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:02 PM

Good luck with all this, but so far, other than a few fanboys here, I know of no one who cares about all of this technology.


New York Times, WIRED felt it was front page interest to their combined 5 million "fanboys".

I'm sure we heard the same complaint from purists when TV broadcast was added to football games.

#153 EaglesPDX

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:10 PM

Ever since the 1992 Cup, when we built the first successful real time tracking/graphics TV system for sailing,
the teams have been deeply involved in the design, implementation and use of these systems. Why? Because they
want to win and they want to have every advantage possible - or at least that no one has a special advantage. The
amount of time, money, and personnel involved in telemetry, spying, data collection, and performance analysis
in past events is staggering, and was probably worth it in terms of resuls.

In this series, ALL of the data coming to/from the yachts is via the TV systems. There are no "team installed/owned" instruments
onboard. Also, ALL of the data is being made publicly available, unfiltered, in real time, for anyone to develop applications -
inlcuding the teams themselves for performance/ tactical analysis.

That is how TV technology can help teams level the playing field and develop the skills to win... never mind the sponsorship
possibilities (give the data to your sponsors and let them develop and promote the next killer app)

There really aren't too many other events out there where everyone (fans and competitors) is supplied (live) with 10hz, <2cm, x,y,z, pitch, roll,
and yaw data from mil-spec GPS and inertial nav units for all the competitors, wind data from an entire fleet of race management boats,
and the video/audio...


And the purpose of the tracking/broadcast coverage is not improve the sailing. it is to make money by making the broadcast of sail boat races a great show. This has great benefits for sailing by promoting the sport which helps with everything from getting kids interested at the entry level to pay for professional sailors at the top levels and to pay for the technical improvements for racing and recreational sailing. Win win for everyone

#154 stanhoney

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 04:18 PM

Our intention is to post the logged data from Cup events on the Americas Cup website. We hope to get that done with the web folks before long. In the meantime we've been posting the data on the following box.net site:


http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594

On the above site you'll find the logged data from the New Zealand test, the Cascais regatta, and we will post the Plymouth data there until we get it organzed with the web folks to post the data on the Cup website itself. You will find a description of the format of the data posted on the box.net site.

By the San Diego regatta we hope to make the live data available to the public so that interested folks can develop viewers. We are still sorting out the public "mirroring" server and finalizing the format of the live data. We will post the format of the live data and maybe some test files from Cascais as soon as we can. We've got a lot on now.


#155 Te Kooti

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 04:30 PM

Our intention is to post the logged data from Cup events on the Americas Cup website. We hope to get that done with the web folks before long. In the meantime we've been posting the data on the following box.net site:



So here is Stan Honey.

A Newbie.

Who will extend the traditional welcome?

Maybe Clean?

#156 Stingray

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:12 PM

Stan - Fantastic start, thank you!

I know it's asking a lot but if/once you do have a .xls or something as a 'starter kit' then please please post that too? Cheers

#157 sunseeker

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:22 PM

Sorry for the double post.

Sunseeker, your logic would also lead one to say that Department of Defense technology wouldn't help a team win a yacht race. Think that one over for a minute.

Some of us racing sailors are also geeks. I remember being ridiculed by traditionalists for using a HP calculator to reduce my sun sights. Now every one of those guys has a GPS.

Don't get down on those that are interested in things you're not. We'll all be watching the races from Plymouth to San Francisco, each of us enjoying them for different reasons... and some of the same.

Lighten the fuck up.


Pardon me for not being a card carrying member of the Oracle Racing fanboy club.

That ACEA has allowed their employees to come here and post is proof that they are at least interesting in hearing all the feedback, and while everyone would prefer the ego stroke, the simple fact is there is more to be learned from the negative comments than the positive. There's very few people, in the larger sense, who actually read this forum, numbers so small as to be insignificant when it comes to the audience necessary to derive the desired economic benefit for the investment that Larry is making. If all ACEA was interested in was hearing how great they are, then they are really going to miss the boat, pun intended.

My concern is ACEA's continual overpromise and under deliver. I'd like to see all this be a success.

#158 sunseeker

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:30 PM


But seriously, how does TV technology help a team win a yacht race?


By attracting the fans.

Who attract the sponsors.

Who pay for the boat.

Which wins the race.

That, anyway, is the theory.

If you aren't interested in this subject, don't read the fucking thread. It's not homework. There won't be a test afterwards. You don't have to be here.


You have the cart before the horse my friend.

I get the theory of having tv to raise sponsorship money.

But it is tv distribution numbers that get sponsors, not technology.

If you so much believe in this technology as being the holy grail of sponsorship, then please go start knocking on sponsor doors on behalf of your favorite team.

Tell them there is going to be this great new technology for controlling the viewing image aboard a boat.

Then when they ask where and when the rest of the ACWS events are going to be, you'll have to tell them you really don't know.

Then when they ask how many of these teams are really going to be in the LV Cup, tell them you really don't know.

Then when they ask if the deal to host in San Fran Bay is really done, tell them you really don't know.

Then tell us all how big a check you walk out of there with to help your favorite team.

#159 dogwatch

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:36 PM

If you so much believe in this technology as being the holy grail of sponsorship, then please go start knocking on sponsor doors on behalf of your favorite team.


See that bit where I said "That, anyway, is the theory."?

#160 PeterHuston

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:59 PM


Oysterhead,
Please push for knots along with KM/hour and MPH. Don't let them dumb it down for non-sailors. Any chance of getting VMG as well? Maybe you can have a more high tech feed.
Keep up the great work.


As things evolve here, and the execs get a chance to actually sail on the boats in the event they are
out selling every day, the general level of understanding about sailing, including units and terminology
is improving. While the intitial directive about style was to focus on bringing in the larger non-sailing
audience, that directive is now shifting towards satisfying the educated sailing audience at the same time.
This opens the door to actually using words, acronyms and concepts that most people reading these
forums appreciate.
The choice of producing multiple simultaneous feeds and having four separate, but linked, production
control rooms allows some flexibility in addressing the challenges of educating and entertaining people
worldwide, whether or not they know anything about sailing or speak english.
Just to warm your hearts, here are some sailing things "on the list" to integrate into LL graphical
elements: VMG, VMC, headed, lifted, knots.... They have always been there, as we sailors on the
team know they need to be - but we couldn't start there and work backwards into generality.

And, just in case anyone out there is wondering, all of us techheads on the team are extremely grateful
that the crazy investment in time we are personally making isn't also stretched in the direction of sales,
marketing and accounting. We do have a real budget, with real constraints and a complex administrative
process to get things done... but we don't have to justify what we are doing daily to a room full of sponsors,
bankers or venture funders.


Good to hear that the programming people are listening, because it was not just painful, it was insulting to hear that speed was being expressed in kpm. Every vessel on the water expresses speed in knots, the way ACEA was talking about it was simply not authentic.

And while we are on the topic of authentic - please tell programming to lose the checked flag. That is so weak. It is basically saying to the non-sailors "hey look at us, we are just like car racing". To sailors, it is an insult.

Consider that John Craig, who runs the racing on the water, is a member of the US Sailing Board of Directors. How is it possible for HIM to be authentic as a Board member of a National Governing Body when a checked flag is used to designate the finish of a race? Stan Honey too for that matter is a member of the US Sailing Board, and while Stan is not involved in programming decisions, and using the checkered flag IS a programming decision, he is still by extension associated with it. If a flag must be waved at the finish, then why not use code flag F?

Sailing is a hard, complicated sport played by intelligent people (for the most part). Dumbing it down for the general public is not really going to end up attracting a bigger audience in the long term. There might be a bump in the viewership for a while, but the attraction for the non-sailor is going to be the spectacular sailing scenes because of the boats used and the stories of the personalities who race them.

While a small detail like the checked flag is trivial in the long run, it suggests that the programming department at ACEA does not understand, and underestimates, the value of being authentic in their presentation of the sport.

#161 PeterHuston

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 06:09 PM


Our intention is to post the logged data from Cup events on the Americas Cup website. We hope to get that done with the web folks before long. In the meantime we've been posting the data on the following box.net site:



So here is Stan Honey.

A Newbie.

Who will extend the traditional welcome?

Maybe Clean?


Professor....

You tend to be one of the more enlightened posters about the human condition on this board, and are very often criticized for posting those observations, experiences and beliefs. I for one happen to enjoy and benefit from your world experience.

Given your background, it is really consistent to then champion the "traditional welcome" to anyone when the purpose is degrading of women in general, particularly someone of Stan (and especially Sally) Honey's stature?

Aren't you better than this?

Think of the alternative - a newbie asked to show us his dick.

#162 Monster Mash

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 06:49 PM



Oysterhead,
Please push for knots along with KM/hour and MPH. Don't let them dumb it down for non-sailors. Any chance of getting VMG as well? Maybe you can have a more high tech feed.
Keep up the great work.


As things evolve here, and the execs get a chance to actually sail on the boats in the event they are
out selling every day, the general level of understanding about sailing, including units and terminology
is improving. While the intitial directive about style was to focus on bringing in the larger non-sailing
audience, that directive is now shifting towards satisfying the educated sailing audience at the same time.
This opens the door to actually using words, acronyms and concepts that most people reading these
forums appreciate.
The choice of producing multiple simultaneous feeds and having four separate, but linked, production
control rooms allows some flexibility in addressing the challenges of educating and entertaining people
worldwide, whether or not they know anything about sailing or speak english.
Just to warm your hearts, here are some sailing things "on the list" to integrate into LL graphical
elements: VMG, VMC, headed, lifted, knots.... They have always been there, as we sailors on the
team know they need to be - but we couldn't start there and work backwards into generality.

And, just in case anyone out there is wondering, all of us techheads on the team are extremely grateful
that the crazy investment in time we are personally making isn't also stretched in the direction of sales,
marketing and accounting. We do have a real budget, with real constraints and a complex administrative
process to get things done... but we don't have to justify what we are doing daily to a room full of sponsors,
bankers or venture funders.


Good to hear that the programming people are listening, because it was not just painful, it was insulting to hear that speed was being expressed in kpm. Every vessel on the water expresses speed in knots, the way ACEA was talking about it was simply not authentic.

And while we are on the topic of authentic - please tell programming to lose the checked flag. That is so weak. It is basically saying to the non-sailors "hey look at us, we are just like car racing". To sailors, it is an insult.

Consider that John Craig, who runs the racing on the water, is a member of the US Sailing Board of Directors. How is it possible for HIM to be authentic as a Board member of a National Governing Body when a checked flag is used to designate the finish of a race? Stan Honey too for that matter is a member of the US Sailing Board, and while Stan is not involved in programming decisions, and using the checkered flag IS a programming decision, he is still by extension associated with it. If a flag must be waved at the finish, then why not use code flag F?

Sailing is a hard, complicated sport played by intelligent people (for the most part). Dumbing it down for the general public is not really going to end up attracting a bigger audience in the long term. There might be a bump in the viewership for a while, but the attraction for the non-sailor is going to be the spectacular sailing scenes because of the boats used and the stories of the personalities who race them.

While a small detail like the checked flag is trivial in the long run, it suggests that the programming department at ACEA does not understand, and underestimates, the value of being authentic in their presentation of the sport.



Disagree with this. We might consider it "dumbing down" but to the uniniated it is making it more understandable. Its a win for growing interest and the sport. NTTAWWT
I agree with the silly kph ref. The checkered flag is a bit odd but I can live with it, it doesn't distract from the quality of the racing. I do wish they would use boat lengths instead of meters or football fields or whatever when describing boat seperation.
I think Stan Honey and John Craig are employees of ACEA and not the final decision makers.
Good job to all so far.

#163 GauchoGreg

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:00 PM

Our intention is to post the logged data from Cup events on the Americas Cup website. We hope to get that done with the web folks before long. In the meantime we've been posting the data on the following box.net site:


http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594

On the above site you'll find the logged data from the New Zealand test, the Cascais regatta, and we will post the Plymouth data there until we get it organzed with the web folks to post the data on the Cup website itself. You will find a description of the format of the data posted on the box.net site.

By the San Diego regatta we hope to make the live data available to the public so that interested folks can develop viewers. We are still sorting out the public "mirroring" server and finalizing the format of the live data. We will post the format of the live data and maybe some test files from Cascais as soon as we can. We've got a lot on now.


Welcome, and thanks for the info.

#164 MrSurly

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:12 PM

Since the smart guys are in the room, some more questions...

I was a little surprised that LL was only available from one camera.
Will that change eventually? Is the goal to have LL enabled on all cameras airborne and terrestrial?

Also noticed the LL shots seemed to be more nadir or 'course overview' type scenes.
Will we eventually see LL incorporated into more oblique and close up scenes? I imagine the geometry of such scenes would be less forgiving for vector placement.

Lastly (for now), the burden of being 'Live' seems huge. I don't question the value and goal of live broadcast, but wonder if the effort stops at real-time. Are peeps reviewing the video and data streams that aren't making the live cut, but could be quickly turned around for replays or less quickly included in the overview type productions that are provided shortly after racing?

Just seems that a pretty small fraction of the potential audience will ever be able to watch live, but might still watch same day.

This is all so geeky and cool, thanks for sharing.

#165 nav

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:25 PM

Our intention is to post the logged data from Cup events on the Americas Cup website. We hope to get that done with the web folks before long. In the meantime we've been posting the data on the following box.net site:


http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594

On the above site you'll find the logged data from the New Zealand test, the Cascais regatta, and we will post the Plymouth data there until we get it organzed with the web folks to post the data on the Cup website itself. You will find a description of the format of the data posted on the box.net site.

By the San Diego regatta we hope to make the live data available to the public so that interested folks can develop viewers. We are still sorting out the public "mirroring" server and finalizing the format of the live data. We will post the format of the live data and maybe some test files from Cascais as soon as we can. We've got a lot on now.


Thanks for that.

Not sure I'm seeing everything correctly (non-microsoft system) but the purists will be pleased that the original speed data appears to be in knots (plus one? data set in m/s)

#166 EaglesPDX

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:25 PM

I was a little surprised that LL was only available from one camera.vAlso noticed the LL shots seemed to be more nadir or 'course overview' type scenes. .


Liveline requires having both boats in view and at some distance for the graphics to work, overview graphic.

Trick is having the Liveline overview as the background with on the boat, or other chosen video feeds, in foreground windows. Nice when showing the onboard feed to show heads up of boatspeed, vmg and distance ahead/behind with in green for gaining, red for losing ground.

#167 nav

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:31 PM

Since the smart guys are in the room, some more questions...

I was a little surprised that LL was only available from one camera.
Will that change eventually? Is the goal to have LL enabled on all cameras airborne and terrestrial?

Also noticed the LL shots seemed to be more nadir or 'course overview' type scenes.
Will we eventually see LL incorporated into more oblique and close up scenes? I imagine the geometry of such scenes would be less forgiving for vector placement.

Lastly (for now), the burden of being 'Live' seems huge. I don't question the value and goal of live broadcast, but wonder if the effort stops at real-time. Are peeps reviewing the video and data streams that aren't making the live cut, but could be quickly turned around for replays or less quickly included in the overview type productions that are provided shortly after racing?

Just seems that a pretty small fraction of the potential audience will ever be able to watch live, but might still watch same day.

This is all so geeky and cool, thanks for sharing.


A daily recap was being put out at roughly midnight (Lisbon) each day. Hmm, actually that may have been the unedited feeds, the recap may have taken longer.

#168 MrSurly

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:53 PM

A daily recap was being put out at roughly midnight (Lisbon) each day.


Yes. From what I've seen though they are made up of broadcast footage.
What I mean is new graphics added to existing footage, to better tell the story.
Just a little hindsight could lead to different choices than was made on-the-fly during broadcast.
Maybe this is already being done.

#169 MrSurly

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:38 PM


I was a little surprised that LL was only available from one camera.vAlso noticed the LL shots seemed to be more nadir or 'course overview' type scenes. .


Liveline requires having both boats in view and at some distance for the graphics to work, overview graphic.

Trick is having the Liveline overview as the background with on the boat, or other chosen video feeds, in foreground windows. Nice when showing the onboard feed to show heads up of boatspeed, vmg and distance ahead/behind with in green for gaining, red for losing ground.


When i said 'smart guys in the room' i meant ... oh never mind.

Yes, i get what you mean. But the purpose of LL graphics is to add context. An overview scene already has a lot context. Might contain some boats, marks, boundary boat trailer thingys...all existing contextual clues. LL graphics help out of course but the scene needs them less.

But then cut too a closer oblique shot of two boats. You can't see a mark or boundary. They could be anywhere on the course. Its impossible to judge distance due to the foreshortened images. The boats look the same upwind and down. The commentator keeps calling Spithall Coutts. This is when you need LL the most!

Direction and distance to next mark. Distance(on course or wind) between boats, etc.

#170 EaglesPDX

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:01 PM

But the purpose of LL graphics is to add context. An overview scene already has a lot context. Might contain some boats, marks, boundary boat trailer thingys...all existing contextual clues. LL graphics help out of course but the scene needs them less.


About zero context without overlay grapihics. On the media boats the sailing journalists were all inside watching the Virtual Spectatot to know what was happening as looking at the boats or just seeing them on TV provided no context to even know who was ahead.

#171 MrSurly

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 12:57 AM

But the purpose of LL graphics is to add context. An overview scene already has a lot context. Might contain some boats, marks, boundary boat trailer thingys...all existing contextual clues. LL graphics help out of course but the scene needs them less.


About zero context without overlay grapihics. On the media boats the sailing journalists were all inside watching the Virtual Spectatot to know what was happening as looking at the boats or just seeing them on TV provided no context to even know who was ahead.


I didn't say the overview shots had sufficient context. I said they had more context than oblique and close-up shots, thus in less need of added information. You say oblique and close up shots won't benefit from LL, i say they may benefit even more. In the mean time enjoying the racing and the augmenting technologies.

#172 EaglesPDX

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 02:56 AM

You say oblique and close up shots won't benefit from LL, i say they may benefit even more. In the mean time enjoying the racing and the augmenting technologies.

If I understand Oysterman's description, Liveline is by definition and function, the overhead helicopter show with graphics overlay.

First, remember that LiveLine (LL from now on) is being drawn over only one realtime helicopter feed. I direct both the pilot and the onboard camera operator onboard where to go and what to frame. I am trying
to generate a continuous view of the important action from above to give context to where things are.This allows the rest of the production team to bounce around between the other 30+ cameras that
are out there, picking the (hopefully) most exciting, interesting, and visually stunning shots.

I don't know if it is one pool of data that Liveline then applies to its view and that the other cameras could apply to their view or if Liveline is specifically the overall view with a data overlay.

I think all views will be enhanced the more graphical information overlay the better. in the ever popular but uninformative shot of the boats side by side, having a heads up graphic for each boat showing speed, vmg, distance ahead(green)/behind(red) would be what I'd want to see. But I will always want the full LiveLine view as a my "wallpaper" and then pick which one of the other feeds I want see. My preference right now is a full screen LiveLine "wallpaper" with two smaller windows of the onboard cameras and audio from the two boats.

#173 MrSurly

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 04:14 AM

Well shit dude, we agree.

#174 ATrimble

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 08:00 AM

Since the smart guys are in the room, some more questions...

I was a little surprised that LL was only available from one camera.
Will that change eventually? Is the goal to have LL enabled on all cameras airborne and terrestrial?

Also noticed the LL shots seemed to be more nadir or 'course overview' type scenes.
Will we eventually see LL incorporated into more oblique and close up scenes? I imagine the geometry of such scenes would be less forgiving for vector placement.

Lastly (for now), the burden of being 'Live' seems huge. I don't question the value and goal of live broadcast, but wonder if the effort stops at real-time. Are peeps reviewing the video and data streams that aren't making the live cut, but could be quickly turned around for replays or less quickly included in the overview type productions that are provided shortly after racing?

Just seems that a pretty small fraction of the potential audience will ever be able to watch live, but might still watch same day.


LL is being drawn onto the heli 3 feed exclusively because that is the only instrumented camera
right now (the instrumentation and camera are Very Expensive). In US football, we instrument the
three high hard mount cameras. In NASCAR, even more cameras.

The primary technical milestone so far in LL is the ability to draw registered, real time synthetic graphics
into a camera feed from a moving source (helicopter, but could be any vehicle or camera on a wire...)
Now that we've been able to prove that it can work in a primitve state - helicopter not ripping around the
sky and camera doing fixed views or slow pans/zooms - we can move forward to the more difficult stuff.

We have three of these heli cameras, and are swapping the instruments onto #2 from #1 for Plymouth.
The calibration/registration test we did two days ago indicates that camera #2 "works better" so we can
push the envelope a little more on heli/camera motion without ugly graphics artifacts appearing on air.
The other two cameras are being used on the other helis for other beautiful stabilized shots.

Other cameras and additional graphical elements are in the works.

#175 ATrimble

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 08:55 AM

Lastly (for now), the burden of being 'Live' seems huge. I don't question the value and goal of live broadcast, but wonder if the effort stops at real-time. Are peeps reviewing the video and data streams that aren't making the live cut, but could be quickly turned around for replays or less quickly included in the overview type productions that are provided shortly after racing?


All the feeds are being recorded for fast turnaround replays, and for all the other news/highlight production
that occurs after racing is done for the day. Also, the LL camera data is recorded and time synched with
the video so we can dynamically switch between using the live source feed or replay feed at the push of
a button. So, yes, we have the inherent flexibility to do these things... and the four control rooms are learning
how to best take advantage of this enormous resource.

The single biggest challenge is really keeping track of when and where the most interesting/informative
bits are (which of the four onboard cameras per boat, which audio mix, etc.) to use for each story. That's
the most difficult part of production and where the sailors on the crew can add the most value to the
process by clearly identifying the most likely upcoming event (live) and the most important decisions
in the winning/losing/place changes highlights (replay) of the day.

#176 nav

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 01:51 PM


Lastly (for now), the burden of being 'Live' seems huge. I don't question the value and goal of live broadcast, but wonder if the effort stops at real-time. Are peeps reviewing the video and data streams that aren't making the live cut, but could be quickly turned around for replays or less quickly included in the overview type productions that are provided shortly after racing?


All the feeds are being recorded for fast turnaround replays, and for all the other news/highlight production
that occurs after racing is done for the day. Also, the LL camera data is recorded and time synched with
the video so we can dynamically switch between using the live source feed or replay feed at the push of
a button. So, yes, we have the inherent flexibility to do these things... and the four control rooms are learning
how to best take advantage of this enormous resource.

The single biggest challenge is really keeping track of when and where the most interesting/informative
bits are (which of the four onboard cameras per boat, which audio mix, etc.) to use for each story. That's
the most difficult part of production and where the sailors on the crew can add the most value to the
process by clearly identifying the most likely upcoming event (live) and the most important decisions
in the winning/losing/place changes highlights (replay) of the day.


Many thanks oysterhead, hope all goes brilliantly in Plymouth and you get to show off some more of your 'new toys'!
Onwards and upwards.

#177 Te Kooti

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 03:38 PM

it is really consistent to then champion the "traditional welcome" to anyone when the purpose is degrading of women in general, particularly someone of Stan (and especially Sally) Honey's stature?

Aren't you better than this?

Think of the alternative.


Fair comment.

And why I leave the traditional welcome to others.

#178 Te Kooti

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 03:46 PM

The single biggest challenge is really keeping track of when and where the most interesting/informative
bits are


Exactly!

So, as in TV of the past 50 yrs. it comes down to the skills of the director and switcher.

You blokes had better be careful or you will end up like the CIA.

Mountains of information and images but grave difficulty figuring out its significance.

#179 EaglesPDX

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 01:50 PM

So no LiveLine because no helicopters? We get a full graphic which looks way better than Virtual Eye. The web site has to offer multiple channels to watch on one page. Virtual Eye is buried somewhere. I'm sure I'll remember it eventually but hunting around for it means it's non-intuitive.

Could replace Virtual Eye with the graphic we see on the broadcast.

That's it!!!! Replace Virtual Eye with LiveLine so folks can go to one page on AC34 site.

1. Live Racing.
2. Liveline Live Racing
3. Oracle Spithill
4. Emirates Barker
5. rest of the boats.

#180 EaglesPDX

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 03:05 PM

DirecTV trick, don't know if this works for other cable/satellite providers.

They provide a wireless connector that lets you watch YouTube on your TV so I can put Virtual Eye (to be replaced by the 24/7 Liveline feed...hint...hint) on the big screen and then broadcast and a boat cam feed on my 21" iMac screen. Nice having the graphic big and by itself so I can get bigger windows on the Mac and easier to manage.

#181 nav

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 04:06 PM


A daily recap was being put out at roughly midnight (Lisbon) each day.


Yes. From what I've seen though they are made up of broadcast footage.
What I mean is , new graphics added to existing footage to better tell the story.
Just a little hindsight could lead to different choices than was made on-the-fly during broadcast.
Maybe this is already being done.


I noticed that even by the end of each race, as the commentators went over the race recap, there were shots included that were not used in the original feed. So yes they do seem to be looking for and editing in the 'highlights' rather than just reusing the stuff they picked out originally.

Good stuff today all around.

#182 ATrimble

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 05:04 PM

So no LiveLine because no helicopters?

Yes, today ended up being the heli testing day that should have happened two days ago.
The low clouds and fog haven't helped us so far... At least the racing in today's breeze was
pretty good with the leward gate and finish right on the beach. We did get some of the issues
sorted by the very end of racing, and got to try a couple of new things but we aren't yet
functional. Lots of changes to heli telemetry and the camera before tomorrow.

We won't have LL on other cameras until it works reliably, from venue to venue, on the first
heli. There's nothing quite like R&D on live events instead of during controlled testing!

#183 EaglesPDX

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:02 PM


So no LiveLine because no helicopters?

Yes, today ended up being the heli testing day that should have happened two days ago.
The low clouds and fog haven't helped us so far... At least the racing in today's breeze was
pretty good with the leward gate and finish right on the beach. We did get some of the issues
sorted by the very end of racing, and got to try a couple of new things but we aren't yet
functional. Lots of changes to heli telemetry and the camera before tomorrow.

We won't have LL on other cameras until it works reliably, from venue to venue, on the first
heli. There's nothing quite like R&D on live events instead of during controlled testing!


If LiveLine is running the whole time, can it be added as one of the channels to choose on the UTube screen. Current offers are Sport, Sailing Cam1 Cam 2, Graphics. Add Liveline as one those choices? If you do, including the "Sport" or "Sailing" audio feed.

The technology is a whole lot of fun from this end. Mo is better on choices.

#184 nav

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:30 PM



So no LiveLine because no helicopters?

Yes, today ended up being the heli testing day that should have happened two days ago.
The low clouds and fog haven't helped us so far... At least the racing in today's breeze was
pretty good with the leward gate and finish right on the beach. We did get some of the issues
sorted by the very end of racing, and got to try a couple of new things but we aren't yet
functional. Lots of changes to heli telemetry and the camera before tomorrow.

We won't have LL on other cameras until it works reliably, from venue to venue, on the first
heli. There's nothing quite like R&D on live events instead of during controlled testing!


If LiveLine is running the whole time, can it be added as one of the channels to choose on the UTube screen. Current offers are Sport, Sailing Cam1 Cam 2, Graphics. Add Liveline as one those choices? If you do, including the "Sport" or "Sailing" audio feed.

The technology is a whole lot of fun from this end. Mo is better on choices.



If you go back up the thread quite a bit EpdX, you'll find a post from oysterhead where he explains that he is often 'playing' or maybe better 'tuning' LL when he knows the feed is not being 'taken' by the director (sorry won't even pretend to know all the right terms). At these times it is 'unsuitable for public viewing', as all sorts of starnge things may appear to be happening - for that reason I think they won't offer it as an option - shame, it would be great.

#185 EaglesPDX

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:38 PM

If you go back up the thread quite a bit EpdX, you'll find a post from oysterhead where he explains that he is often 'playing' or maybe better 'tuning' LL when he knows the feed is not being 'taken' by the director (sorry won't even pretend to know all the right terms). At these times it is 'unsuitable for public viewing', as all sorts of starnge things may appear to be happening - for that reason I think they won't offer it as an option - shame, it would be great.


It's a feature not a bug, a saleable feature. People will watch it even more if they are told it is "behind the scences" or "directors cut". Put a notice on screen that Liveline is a work in progress and to expect to "construction" tools. MORE people will watch it to get a peek at the inner workings. The 3 million WIRED readers would tune in JUST to get the work in progress views, the watchworks.

#186 ATrimble

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 07:47 PM




So no LiveLine because no helicopters?

Yes, today ended up being the heli testing day that should have happened two days ago.
The low clouds and fog haven't helped us so far... At least the racing in today's breeze was
pretty good with the leward gate and finish right on the beach. We did get some of the issues
sorted by the very end of racing, and got to try a couple of new things but we aren't yet
functional. Lots of changes to heli telemetry and the camera before tomorrow.

We won't have LL on other cameras until it works reliably, from venue to venue, on the first
heli. There's nothing quite like R&D on live events instead of during controlled testing!


If LiveLine is running the whole time, can it be added as one of the channels to choose on the UTube screen. Current offers are Sport, Sailing Cam1 Cam 2, Graphics. Add Liveline as one those choices? If you do, including the "Sport" or "Sailing" audio feed.

The technology is a whole lot of fun from this end. Mo is better on choices.



If you go back up the thread quite a bit EpdX, you'll find a post from oysterhead where he explains that he is often 'playing' or maybe better 'tuning' LL when he knows the feed is not being 'taken' by the director (sorry won't even pretend to know all the right terms). At these times it is 'unsuitable for public viewing', as all sorts of starnge things may appear to be happening - for that reason I think they won't offer it as an option - shame, it would be great.


Never fear, brave souls. If things work out the way we hope, then a stable LL feed out full time is
a really good possibility. This would be in addition to LL being driven specifically to augment the
main program(s) of which there could obviously be more than one if things develop into a host
broadcast with feeds going to dedicated regional broadcasters. Even the first SailTrack (now VE)
system had separate control and rendering engines for ESPN, the World Feed and TVNZ, way
back in 1992.

As I've said before, once things work reliably it gets much easier to shrink and duplicate them
for specific purposes.

Wouldn't it have been nice if things just worked as we had planned today? If they had, we'd be in
a warm pub right now instead of having two guys on the roof of one of the containers in the rain running
new cables to a different possible RF location for the heli telemetry, and three guys downstairs
monitoring signal strengths and interference (8:45PM).

We are looking forward to a better scenario tomorrow!

#187 nav

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 08:01 PM





So no LiveLine because no helicopters?

Yes, today ended up being the heli testing day that should have happened two days ago.
The low clouds and fog haven't helped us so far... At least the racing in today's breeze was
pretty good with the leward gate and finish right on the beach. We did get some of the issues
sorted by the very end of racing, and got to try a couple of new things but we aren't yet
functional. Lots of changes to heli telemetry and the camera before tomorrow.

We won't have LL on other cameras until it works reliably, from venue to venue, on the first
heli. There's nothing quite like R&D on live events instead of during controlled testing!


If LiveLine is running the whole time, can it be added as one of the channels to choose on the UTube screen. Current offers are Sport, Sailing Cam1 Cam 2, Graphics. Add Liveline as one those choices? If you do, including the "Sport" or "Sailing" audio feed.

The technology is a whole lot of fun from this end. Mo is better on choices.



If you go back up the thread quite a bit EpdX, you'll find a post from oysterhead where he explains that he is often 'playing' or maybe better 'tuning' LL when he knows the feed is not being 'taken' by the director (sorry won't even pretend to know all the right terms). At these times it is 'unsuitable for public viewing', as all sorts of starnge things may appear to be happening - for that reason I think they won't offer it as an option - shame, it would be great.


Never fear, brave souls. If things work out the way we hope, then a stable LL feed out full time is
a really good possibility. This would be in addition to LL being driven specifically to augment the
main program(s) of which there could obviously be more than one if things develop into a host
broadcast with feeds going to dedicated regional broadcasters. Even the first SailTrack (now VE)
system had separate control and rendering engines for ESPN, the World Feed and TVNZ, way
back in 1992.

As I've said before, once things work reliably it gets much easier to shrink and duplicate them
for specific purposes.

Wouldn't it have been nice if things just worked as we had planned today? If they had, we'd be in
a warm pub right now instead of having two guys on the roof of one of the containers in the rain running
new cables to a different possible RF location for the heli telemetry, and three guys downstairs
monitoring signal strengths and interference (8:45PM).

We are looking forward to a better scenario tomorrow!


Here's to you oyster and the guys on the roof, keep up the good work.

Posted Image

If you make it down before closing, the round's on me!

#188 EaglesPDX

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 02:36 AM

Never fear, brave souls. If things work out the way we hope, then a stable LL feed out full time is
a really good possibility.


Still my beating heart. Doubly great because I realized I can't put Virtual Eye on my big screen TV because it is not UTube but a program running on my Mac.

If Liveline is a "channel" on the UTube broadcast, then I can put it on the big screen TV and the boat cams on the Mac.

I have to play around with it, DirecTV treats UTube channels as regular broadcast channels but the AC34 channel has the choices (of which Liveline would be one) as menu items and I don't know if I can get at them vs. just putting up what AC34 calls the main channel.

#189 EaglesPDX

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 02:26 PM

Virtual Eye is truly bobo. If you crank up the magification it leaves in a empty patch of water vs. focusing on the lead boat and contracting or expanding from there. Trying to view the replay (because Sunday was hour early and I missed it, because the video replay is posted right away, because VE replay isn't posted right away...all equally bobo...clearly all are recorded should just be rewind on UTube).

Anyway, point is having a replay of Liveline video/graphic combo is going to be key...see what's going on and know what is going on.

#190 EaglesPDX

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:03 PM

Virtual Eye is truly bobo. If you crank up the magification it leaves in a empty patch of water vs. focusing on the lead boat and contracting or expanding from there. Trying to view the replay (because Sunday was hour early and I missed it, because the video replay is posted right away, because VE replay isn't posted right away...all equally bobo...clearly all are recorded should just be rewind on UTube).

Anyway, point is having a replay of Liveline video/graphic combo is going to be key...see what's going on and know what is going on.


Work around is pic a boat at the top and then drill down.

#191 EaglesPDX

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 01:40 PM

I like the "yard markers" showing up in the overheads.

#192 EaglesPDX

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 02:05 PM

Guys! You've gotta get me a iPhone app to watch the races!! How about a LiveLine app?

#193 EaglesPDX

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 03:59 PM

Not exactly Liveline related (did I mention I need an AC34 live iPhone app?) but they could add user controlled video cam like many of the ski resorts use. Cam shows a major area and then users que up online to control the cam, left right, up down, zoom in out. For example, here's the link to Park City's snow cams.

Be fun to set two up, one pointed at the race course so folks could pan around, look at course and crowd etc. and a second one that viewed the boat docks, watching the boats getting ready.

#194 ATrimble

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 05:41 PM

I like the "yard markers" showing up in the overheads.


Those lines are the ladder lines (inside the laylines and boundaries) to the next mark. If the wind direction
and course axis are aligned, the lines are perpendicular to the course axis and directly show ahead/behind
relative to the leg - otherwise they show the boat progress upwind or downwind. And the 'advantage lines"
we show are based on the predicted sailing distance at the current wind direction/strength using polars.

The wind data comes from the mark boats and some manual intervention based on actual sailing
angles....

You noticed we switched back to kph and meters today, as the sailors are (correctly) using language that
includes boatlengths, knots and meters.... and the audience can hear that in the really nice onboard
audio when the skippers are calling out distance to their crew before a tack or gybe... after all, we (LL)
are supplying them with a numeric display of their distance to the closest boundary (in meters) on their
onboard displays. The more we hear the crews speak, the more we'll have support for using sailing
terminology...

The most observant of you will have already noticed that LL incorrectly showed two boats over the near
boundary on the final run of race three. We just figured out that the course boundaries used by the LL
graphics program weren't synched with the boundaries used onboard the boats and the umpires (which
were synched) at that time. The Principle Race Officer periodically sends out changes to the boundaries
and every client except the LL graphics program received the updates and used them... LL missed one.
Bad SW bug that we got to reveal live... Isn't R&D fun!?

#195 EaglesPDX

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 05:51 PM


I like the "yard markers" showing up in the overheads.


Those lines are the ladder lines (inside the laylines and boundaries) to the next mark. If the wind direction
and course axis are aligned, the lines are perpendicular to the course axis and directly show ahead/behind
relative to the leg - otherwise they show the boat progress upwind or downwind. And the 'advantage lines"
we show are based on the predicted sailing distance at the current wind direction/strength using polars.

The wind data comes from the mark boats and some manual intervention based on actual sailing
angles....

You noticed we switched back to kph and meters today, as the sailors are (correctly) using language that
includes boatlengths, knots and meters.... and the audience can hear that in the really nice onboard
audio when the skippers are calling out distance to their crew before a tack or gybe... after all, we (LL)
are supplying them with a numeric display of their distance to the closest boundary (in meters) on their
onboard displays. The more we hear the crews speak, the more we'll have support for using sailing
terminology...

The most observant of you will have already noticed that LL incorrectly showed two boats over the near
boundary on the final run of race three. We just figured out that the course boundaries used by the LL
graphics program weren't synched with the boundaries used onboard the boats and the umpires (which
were synched) at that time. The Principle Race Officer periodically sends out changes to the boundaries
and every client except the LL graphics program received the updates and used them... LL missed one.
Bad SW bug that we got to reveal live... Isn't R&D fun!?


Yes...yes...but where's my LiveLine iPhone app stand on the punch list? It's going to be TOTALLY necessary come San Diego. I'll be at work (none of these convenient catch the race before the commute business) and the live video doesn't work on iPhones or iPads. You must save us Obi Wan!

#196 ATrimble

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:30 PM



I like the "yard markers" showing up in the overheads.


Those lines are the ladder lines (inside the laylines and boundaries) to the next mark. If the wind direction
and course axis are aligned, the lines are perpendicular to the course axis and directly show ahead/behind
relative to the leg - otherwise they show the boat progress upwind or downwind. And the 'advantage lines"
we show are based on the predicted sailing distance at the current wind direction/strength using polars.

The wind data comes from the mark boats and some manual intervention based on actual sailing
angles....

You noticed we switched back to kph and meters today, as the sailors are (correctly) using language that
includes boatlengths, knots and meters.... and the audience can hear that in the really nice onboard
audio when the skippers are calling out distance to their crew before a tack or gybe... after all, we (LL)
are supplying them with a numeric display of their distance to the closest boundary (in meters) on their
onboard displays. The more we hear the crews speak, the more we'll have support for using sailing
terminology...

The most observant of you will have already noticed that LL incorrectly showed two boats over the near
boundary on the final run of race three. We just figured out that the course boundaries used by the LL
graphics program weren't synched with the boundaries used onboard the boats and the umpires (which
were synched) at that time. The Principle Race Officer periodically sends out changes to the boundaries
and every client except the LL graphics program received the updates and used them... LL missed one.
Bad SW bug that we got to reveal live... Isn't R&D fun!?


Yes...yes...but where's my LiveLine iPhone app stand on the punch list? It's going to be TOTALLY necessary come San Diego. I'll be at work (none of these convenient catch the race before the commute business) and the live video doesn't work on iPhones or iPads. You must save us Obi Wan!


This isn't really a LL issue directly, but I have been sorting through the details of
how the feeds get out and about the world... sorry you are caught in the Flash Player / iApp
black hole. I'll keep hunting for a solution amongst the gang here; there are quite a
few iDevices in the compound, complete with skilled users. I should have bought
Apple stock long ago.

#197 nav

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:44 PM


I like the "yard markers" showing up in the overheads.


Those lines are the ladder lines (inside the laylines and boundaries) to the next mark. If the wind direction
and course axis are aligned, the lines are perpendicular to the course axis and directly show ahead/behind
relative to the leg - otherwise they show the boat progress upwind or downwind. And the 'advantage lines"
we show are based on the predicted sailing distance at the current wind direction/strength using polars.

The wind data comes from the mark boats and some manual intervention based on actual sailing
angles....

You noticed we switched back to kph and meters today, as the sailors are (correctly) using language that
includes boatlengths, knots and meters.... and the audience can hear that in the really nice onboard
audio when the skippers are calling out distance to their crew before a tack or gybe... after all, we (LL)
are supplying them with a numeric display of their distance to the closest boundary (in meters) on their
onboard displays. The more we hear the crews speak, the more we'll have support for using sailing
terminology...

The most observant of you will have already noticed that LL incorrectly showed two boats over the near
boundary on the final run of race three. We just figured out that the course boundaries used by the LL
graphics program weren't synched with the boundaries used onboard the boats and the umpires (which
were synched) at that time. The Principle Race Officer periodically sends out changes to the boundaries
and every client except the LL graphics program received the updates and used them... LL missed one.
Bad SW bug that we got to reveal live... Isn't R&D fun!?


Brilliant. Thanks for keeping us all informed oysterhead.

Good point about the audio and units used needing to be synchronised - a win for the sailors.

#198 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:53 PM

I should have bought Apple stock long ago.


So should've we all. Stephanie M did mention on the Youtube chat today that the iDevice app is in the works. I'd certainly expect it by San Diego - it only took the Extreme 40 series a couple months to sort theirs out, and that's on a shoestring budget.

#199 EaglesPDX

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 11:53 PM

This isn't really a LL issue directly, but I have been sorting through the details of
how the feeds get out and about the world... sorry you are caught in the Flash Player / iApp
black hole. I'll keep hunting for a solution amongst the gang here; there are quite a
few iDevices in the compound, complete with skilled users. I should have bought
Apple stock long ago.


It's only the live video on YouTube that won't work in the iPhone. Is the live video in YouTube video on Flash and the recorded video done in HTML5 which the iPhone's can view?

Keep pushing for that Liveline Channel on the broadcast. My setup for the race is a window with the live race in upper left 25% of screen. AC Anarchy in lower left 25%. Virtual Eye in right 50%. Only reason I have VE that big is it won't scale down, just loses real estate and scroll bars pop up.

Ideal is Liveline full screen with smaller windows where I can play with the other broadcast feeds and ACA.

#200 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 02:13 AM

Is the live video in YouTube video on Flash and the recorded video done in HTML5 which the iPhone's can view?

Correct.

Ideal is Liveline full screen with smaller windows where I can play with the other broadcast feeds and ACA.


Ideal: Video with Liveline on top of it regardless of what camera angle is used, with selectable parameters and units. Audio stream selectable for commentators and team onboard mic (pick any boat, any time to listen to). That shit would be sick! Revolutionary and a great way to prove that new tech can change the way fans see things. I bet it would work, and be awesome, and they're not all that far away right now.




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