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AC34's "Liveline" race graphics


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#301 SW Sailor

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:46 AM



^^^ Stingray, do you really think any team, especially oracle, is going to give up wing trim information?

Hard to say, do you think AR will get a second AC 45 ?


Ah yes. I see, you now answer for Stingray. Very interesting.

I'll just parrot your line and say "let's give it all time, and see what happens with Artemis and another 45".


Having a bad day ?

Did you also see the confirmation that Artemis bought a second AC45 come in immediately after you shot your mouth off about why they didn't ?

Slinging insults is ok though, if it may makes you feel better about jamming your foot in your mouth.

#302 sunseeker

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:08 AM




^^^ Stingray, do you really think any team, especially oracle, is going to give up wing trim information?

Hard to say, do you think AR will get a second AC 45 ?


Ah yes. I see, you now answer for Stingray. Very interesting.

I'll just parrot your line and say "let's give it all time, and see what happens with Artemis and another 45".


Having a bad day ?

Did you also see the confirmation that Artemis bought a second AC45 come in immediately after you shot your mouth off about why they didn't ?

Slinging insults is ok though, if it may makes you feel better about jamming your foot in your mouth.


Actually, having a very good day. Loving this baking heat.

Just don't really give a shit whether Artemis has 1, 2, or 10 boats, or if you think I shot my mouth off. And if Artemis has a Frankentri and a wing, that is pretty cool. Guess they have been focused on what really matters.

Basically, you are a worthless piece of internet digital dust, someone who sits on the fence and says "give it all time", while never having a real opinion and yet is critical of everyone but Stingray.

Now, with your team having a grand total of four AC 45's, what possible excuse can they have for not finishing 1-2 in every race?

#303 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:23 AM

Geezus, and people take SWS to task for getting in-your-face?

We definitely need a hookup, in Daly's Bar :)

What kinda heat 'do ya got'?

Until we find out different? Yes, Artemis has leapfrogged everyone. Can't wait to see that wing, and that outboard hull too. That program likely costs, and pays, a lot more than a few 45s.

#304 sunseeker

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 02:27 AM

Geezus, and people take SWS to task for getting in-your-face?

We definitely need a hookup, in Daly's Bar :)

What kinda heat 'do ya got'?

Until we find out different? Yes, Artemis has leapfrogged everyone. Can't wait to see that wing, and that outboard hull too. That program likely costs, and pays, a lot more than a few 45s.


Not quite sure what you mean by Daly's bar.

Heat? check the temp maps around the country and figure it out.

Artemis might have leapfrogged the rest of the challengers, but they have a long way to go to catch up to Oracle. The leapfrog will be in the fact they have actually built a wing, and no one other than Oracle has. Anyone who thinks building a wing for a C cat counts as much practice is kidding themselves.

Now back to liveline stuff.

But back on topic - and sorry for the thread drift everyone - never should have responded to that piece of digital dust.

#305 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 02:39 AM

Daly's Bar is where we get to meet up, face to face, to fulfill TC's long time wish.

Heat refers to if you have anything to back your mostly outlandish, unsupportable opinions.

What evidence do you have for your claim that Artemis has leapfrogged the rest of the Challengers, but not OR? You think OR's building of a relatively crude, but gigantic, wing that had nothing to do with any AC72 rule, means it in any way scales to what Artemis has likely built to a specialty AC72 design? What evidence, exactly, please?

I would apologize too, for all that drift.

Okay, back to the good stuff, including all the digital fairy dust that helps make this the best race broadcasting that I have ever seen. By the obvious evidence :)

#306 ro!

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 04:19 AM

Daly's Bar is where we get to meet up, face to face, to fulfill TC's long time wish.

Heat refers to if you have anything to back your mostly outlandish, unsupportable opinions.

What evidence do you have for your claim that Artemis has leapfrogged the rest of the Challengers, but not OR? You think OR's building of a relatively crude, but gigantic, wing that had nothing to do with any AC72 rule, means it in any way scales to what Artemis has likely built to a specialty AC72 design? What evidence, exactly, please?

I would apologize too, for all that drift.

Okay, back to the good stuff, including all the digital fairy dust that helps make this the best race broadcasting that I have ever seen. By the obvious evidence :)



Daly's Bar had nothing to do with tc ...this is the bar where swsailerboy told us many times that he was going to take a bunch of homeless guys for a drink because Daly was critical of the larry real estate fest in SF..of course he didn't do it and backpedaled on the deal...

You and the oracalites are the only ones around here who don't think that larry and his ac team haven't got a huge advantage on everyone else..they have been working on it now for over two years..Artemis and JK have found a loophole and hopefully can exploit it but for sure they are way behind team larry and the rest of the challengers are an age behind them...

#307 SW Sailor

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:21 AM





^^^ Stingray, do you really think any team, especially oracle, is going to give up wing trim information?

Hard to say, do you think AR will get a second AC 45 ?


Ah yes. I see, you now answer for Stingray. Very interesting.

I'll just parrot your line and say "let's give it all time, and see what happens with Artemis and another 45".


Having a bad day ?

Did you also see the confirmation that Artemis bought a second AC45 come in immediately after you shot your mouth off about why they didn't ?

Slinging insults is ok though, if it may makes you feel better about jamming your foot in your mouth.


Actually, having a very good day. Loving this baking heat.

Just don't really give a shit...

That's pretty apparent.

Why are you here then ?





#308 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:33 AM

Daly's bar is a place where we may all meet for a beer, the only condition Dixie being with us, and SW's car too.

Ro! knows why. :lol:

#309 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:42 AM

Basically, you are a worthless piece of internet digital dust, someone who sits on the fence and says "give it all time", while never having a real opinion and yet is critical of everyone but Stingray.


Good observation Sunseeker. However SWS is anything but a worthless piece of internet digital crust.

#310 Dixie

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:36 AM

Shall I get popcorn or another glass of pinot noir to pour for you salts?
Posted Image

#311 oysterhead

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 02:47 AM

I suspect many of you have already found this, but in case you haven't dug deep into the AC website,
the data from testing in Aukland, and races in Cascais and Plymouth are here:
http://www.americasc...ents/Race-Data/

Also, the videos posted here:
http://noticeboard.a...-booth-replays/
are very useful to watch, both for more information about umpiring and for examples of how the data
are presented to the umpires live, and teams after racing

#312 ~Stingray~

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:14 AM

So give us a clue, OH. How can we best make use of all that data, where is the low hanging fruit?

I spent twenty minutes trying to build a database entity relationship diagram out of it but there were a couple of critical links missing, iirc, in the way the data is set up so far.

#313 Observer

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:43 AM

So give us a clue, OH. How can we best make use of all that data, where is the low hanging fruit?

I spent twenty minutes trying to build a database entity relationship diagram out of it but there were a couple of critical links missing, iirc, in the way the data is set up so far.


@Stingray, I'm not sure an entity relationship diagram is going to help you here...the regatta/boat configuration data is in the xml files, but the meat is in CSV.

Oysterhead - It all well and good to see data archives of prior events, but what are then mechanisms for subscribing to near/real time feeds ? This is the data thats used by Virtual Eye right ? What are the capacity limitation of potentially thousands of devices pulling this data simultaneously ? Is there any infrastructure for testing integration with these feeds ? Is there am ACEA managed forum dedicated to supporting users of this data. The PDF in the archives is good and all that but...

#314 Observer

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:58 AM

If the SA front page is to be believed, the ESS video crew are using "drones" to capture aerial shots...It this also an option for ACEA to reduce the costs of helicopter charter and associated noise ?

#315 oysterhead

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:49 PM

Oysterhead - It all well and good to see data archives of prior events, but what are then mechanisms for subscribing to near/real time feeds ? This is the data thats used by Virtual Eye right ? What are the capacity limitation of potentially thousands of devices pulling this data simultaneously ? Is there any infrastructure for testing integration with these feeds ? Is there am ACEA managed forum dedicated to supporting users of this data. The PDF in the archives is good and all that but...


The data that are in the archives are the data that are used for VE, LL, and the umpiring system - live. The mechanism/process for transitioning from
archival to live streaming outside the core compound is a work in progress. As people develop the client apps (including the teams) using the
archived data, details are getting sorted on data formats that "work" for everyone. There have been many significant changes during and between
race events as issues surface and get resolved... development during production is exciting. I have initiated an internal conversation about
the process and timing of the transition to see where this is going - it is on the other side of the fence from my production role.

#316 oysterhead

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:56 PM

If the SA front page is to be believed, the ESS video crew are using "drones" to capture aerial shots...It this also an option for ACEA to reduce the costs of helicopter charter and associated noise ?


Multirotor RC helicopters and fixed wing RC planes are really maturing as photo platforms. They do present interesting options
and the video of the kids opti race linked in the SA front page is really awesome. There are some significant issues, (legal,
logistic, and cost) associated with using these things in the US, especially in controlled airspaces... that keep us using real
helicopters with outstanding cameras.

#317 Te Kooti

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:11 PM

There are some significant issues, (legal,
logistic, and cost) associated with using these things in the US, especially in controlled airspaces


Can you elaborate?

Does the US military object to these nifty devices flying around?


#318 oysterhead

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:21 PM


There are some significant issues, (legal,
logistic, and cost) associated with using these things in the US, especially in controlled airspaces


Can you elaborate?

Does the US military object to these nifty devices flying around?


There isn't any simple way for air traffic control to communicate with the operators of these vehicles - especially
since they can be programmed in advance to fly particular flight plans (using onboard GPS/gyros.) Having things
flying around near passenger aircraft, without the ability to maintain separation at all times, is a bit of a hazard.

The workaround is having a full time pilot on the local ATC radio channels for each vehicle...

#319 Te Kooti

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:29 PM



There are some significant issues, (legal,
logistic, and cost) associated with using these things in the US, especially in controlled airspaces


Can you elaborate?

Does the US military object to these nifty devices flying around?


There isn't any simple way for air traffic control to communicate with the operators of these vehicles - especially
since they can be programmed in advance to fly particular flight plans (using onboard GPS/gyros.) Having things
flying around near passenger aircraft, without the ability to maintain separation at all times, is a bit of a hazard.

The workaround is having a full time pilot on the local ATC radio channels for each vehicle...


If a bloke sitting inside a Colorado mountain can pilot a drone to deliver something nasty into the bedroom of a terrorist leader on the other side of the world it should be possible to control a remotely operated camera hovering over a boat race.

It is all quite fascinating.

And thanks for your response.

#320 Rennmaus

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:46 PM



There are some significant issues, (legal,
logistic, and cost) associated with using these things in the US, especially in controlled airspaces


Can you elaborate?

Does the US military object to these nifty devices flying around?


There isn't any simple way for air traffic control to communicate with the operators of these vehicles - especially
since they can be programmed in advance to fly particular flight plans (using onboard GPS/gyros.) Having things
flying around near passenger aircraft, without the ability to maintain separation at all times, is a bit of a hazard.

The workaround is having a full time pilot on the local ATC radio channels for each vehicle...


From what I've seen in Almería this thing never flew near a passenger aircraft, it flew near the boats. There was one guy controlling it, and he could have easily communicated with flight control if necessary. Same as each heli has a pilot communicating, each of the "drones" can have a controler communicating.

I just wonder what you guys are planning in SD, with passenger aircraft flying only feet away from the fleet. Wow! Posted Image

#321 Observer

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:29 PM

^^ Great point @Rennmaus !

Talk about restricted airspace. This might be a problem specific to San Diego though given its proximity to the airport; in SF all you have to worry about is the pesky tourist/sightseeing flights as they keep real air traffic well ways from SF in terms of altitude that would cause a problem with the AC air traffic.

Are there also issues for Naples, Venice and Newport ?

#322 ~Stingray~

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:37 PM

In SD Bay they will also be 'only feet away' from the Naval Airstation runway, on the other side of them.

Maybe they could lend a few (friendly) drones?

#323 ~Stingray~

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:38 PM


So give us a clue, OH. How can we best make use of all that data, where is the low hanging fruit?

I spent twenty minutes trying to build a database entity relationship diagram out of it but there were a couple of critical links missing, iirc, in the way the data is set up so far.


@Stingray, I'm not sure an entity relationship diagram is going to help you here...the regatta/boat configuration data is in the xml files, but the meat is in CSV.

On a phone right now but will try anyway.

The problems I ran into were not with the data formats, but with how to relate some of the datasets to each other so that you could know for example what race, boat, start time, mark positions, etc, the (for example) SOG readings pertained to.

Good Q on the live streaming of the data, and a nice response by OH too. Live would solve some of it, and a lot more, but the historical analysis is made difficult by some the absence of a few foreign key fields when I looked at it.

Would be fun to be able to answer who sailed the shortest distance on L2, or made the best time, in R2, etc. Seems like a statistical goldmine if one could import it into the right table structures.

#324 Observer

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:19 AM



So give us a clue, OH. How can we best make use of all that data, where is the low hanging fruit?

I spent twenty minutes trying to build a database entity relationship diagram out of it but there were a couple of critical links missing, iirc, in the way the data is set up so far.


@Stingray, I'm not sure an entity relationship diagram is going to help you here...the regatta/boat configuration data is in the xml files, but the meat is in CSV.

On a phone right now but will try anyway.

The problems I ran into were not with the data formats, but with how to relate some of the datasets to each other so that you could know for example what race, boat, start time, mark positions, etc, the (for example) SOG readings pertained to.

Good Q on the live streaming of the data, and a nice response by OH too. Live would solve some of it, and a lot more, but the historical analysis is made difficult by some the absence of a few foreign key fields when I looked at it.

Would be fun to be able to answer who sailed the shortest distance on L2, or made the best time, in R2, etc. Seems like a statistical goldmine if one could import it into the right table structures.


@Stingray...read the PDF documentation...it's all in there...and with a bit of common sense, and a bunch of digging around you work it out. In the format it's in, a schema is not going to help you beyond the regatta/boat configuration. To get the answer you are looking for you are going to have to parse the data and possibly do some math. I can envision a feed format that would give you the data in an perhaps a more organized way that might help you find what you are looking for, but it probably wont just stand out a give you the answer directly.

I expect what we see today is an early evolution of the final product, and its great that we get to have an early peek at the goodies, and perhaps have the opportunity to make some suggestions.

Either way, you'll need some tooling to make real use of it.

A couple more questions out to oysterhead:
  • Has any thought, that you know of, gone into syncing data feed replay/playback (or even Virtual Eye) to video replay, with pause, rewind etc. base of the timecode ? Not sure if the YT API has hooks for this ?
  • I see the AC Uncovered on TV (Comcast) at 1080p, are there any plans for YT Live coverage to support this resolution ? From Plymouth I was only able to get 720p


#325 stanhoney

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:19 PM

Folks have been asking about the availability of live streaming data during the World Series events. As mentioned, it is ACEA's intention to make live data freely available for applications and services that are in turn free to end users.

We have a live streaming data server running that we use internally, but it uses a terse binary format and can support only a limited number of connections. The ACEA IT folks are working to set up a slave server based on the LightStreamer tools. That slave server will connect to our binary internal server and make the same data available in a more friendly format for which external tools are available. That LightStreamer based server will be set up to support a large number of external connections.

http://www.lightstreamer.com



Our hope is have the LightStreamer based server running before the San Diego event, but the LiveLine group and the IT group have lots on and may not make it. When we have a draft format for the live data and have test data running via the LightStreamer server, I'll post that fact here.



We will be describing the approach to live data at a meeting setup byTechCentralSF on the evening of Nov 2nd. http://www.techcentralsf.com We may be able to demonstrate the LightStreamer server at that time. We will be able to demonstrate a test client connecting to our internal binary server if folks are curious, but the LightStreamer based server will be the better solution.

The logged data from each race will continue to be available at http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594 after each race and on the America's Cup website after each regatta. That format will stay as it is except for bug fixes as needed.

#326 Alpina

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:19 PM

Wow, the man behind the tech right here @ SA.

Thank you for posting Stan! Keep us updated! :)

#327 Dixie

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:53 PM

And guess where the first hits to their logged data came from? Posted Image

They are really hoping that the sailing geeks of the world pick up on this info and build AC-type apps around it. I's a pretty big deal that the ACEA is willing to give what are essentially proprietary datapoints away.

#328 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:12 PM

^ Agreed, big time.

I looked through the Lightstreamer API's and fell into a deep dream for 45 minutes, all kinds of visions crossed my mind. Then I woke up to my abrupt reality and snapped out of it.

Decided I need a career change, this could easily be the inspiration!

#329 ~Stingray~

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 02:29 PM

Good one, at SailBlast
--


Sunday, October 23, 2011

OBSERVATIONS FROM THE GUYS CHANGING THE 34th AMERICA'S CUP

Stan Honey, Director of Technology for the 34th America's Cup (AC34) and John Craig, Principal Race Officer (PRO) for AC34 talked to members of the San Francisco Yacht Club last week, reviewing the World Series events in Cascais and Plymouth and explaining the technology they're using in their jobs - technology which is changing the way that races are being run and facilitating better than ever accuracy in umpiring, and for the viewer of the sport, making races easier and more interesting to watch across different platforms.

Craig also talked about the logistics of course building under the new regime and gave an overview of the different boats used in race management, from jet skis to rad camera boats.

contd

#330 stanhoney

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 10:12 PM

There is more information now posted on the sharing site below regarding the live data servers. We are working on two.

One, ACRS, is running now for test purposes and will be running for the San Diego event. The ACRS server is a derivative of the data server that we use internally, but we now have set up a slave server that will be available for external access. Information on that server is posted at the site below, along with a test client for demonstration and test. The server is running historical data now. http://www.box.net/s...6hrbx3regb4y247

There is a second server that will be based on theLightStreamer tools, that we hope to have running for San Diego in addition to ACRS. The LightStreamer based server will be easier to use. For information on the LightStreamer tools and API see www.lightstreamer.com We will describe the overall live data approach at the 2 November, meeting in San Francisco hosted by Tech Central SF, but all technical information will also be posted.

As before, the sharing site for the logged race data is: http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594 We will continue to post logs of each day's sailing in the same location and format as before.

We hope to move our technology related file sharing site to the www.americascup.com website shortly. When we do I'll post the direct URL.

#331 ~Stingray~

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 10:28 PM

That















Rocks!!!

(edit, the first link above is 404 ATM)

#332 stanhoney

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:12 PM

Sorry about the bad links:

Info on streaming servers:
http://www.box.net/s...6hrbx3regb4y247

Site for logged race data:
http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594

#333 Te Kooti

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:37 PM

Sorry about the bad links:

Info on streaming servers:
http://www.box.net/s...6hrbx3regb4y247

Site for logged race data:
http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594


So here is a chance for a doctoral student to build a Ph.D. dissertation out of a publicly-accessible data base.

On how 45' cats - when racing - sail in different kinds of wind, tide and sea conditions.

Imagine all the multivariate possibilities.

I wonder if syndicate stats boffins will now mine this for useful insights.

#334 Observer

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:51 PM


Sorry about the bad links:

Info on streaming servers:
http://www.box.net/s...6hrbx3regb4y247

Site for logged race data:
http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594


So here is a chance for a doctoral student to build a Ph.D. dissertation out of a publicly-accessible data base.

On how 45' cats - when racing - sail in different kinds of wind, tide and sea conditions.

Imagine all the multivariate possibilities.

I wonder if syndicate stats boffins will now mine this for useful insights.

I figure one app of interest could take all the data for each boat for each race and build polars off the data and compare the polars between days, races and across events so see if there is any improvement...it'll be best efforts though as there probably won't be enough samples for a given wind speed to point of sail to boat speed get a complete set of polars each time with out noise skewing the results.

Anyone got any other useful examples/ideas of uses for the static data snapshots as well as the real time feeds ? there seems little point on competing with Virtual Eye.

#335 Te Kooti

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:05 AM



Sorry about the bad links:

Info on streaming servers:
http://www.box.net/s...6hrbx3regb4y247

Site for logged race data:
http://www.box.net/s...l0eyakk4n7n0594


So here is a chance for a doctoral student to build a Ph.D. dissertation out of a publicly-accessible data base.

On how 45' cats - when racing - sail in different kinds of wind, tide and sea conditions.

Imagine all the multivariate possibilities.

I wonder if syndicate stats boffins will now mine this for useful insights.

I figure one app of interest could take all the data for each boat for each race and build polars off the data and compare the polars between days, races and across events so see if there is any improvement...it'll be best efforts though as there probably won't be enough samples for a given wind speed to point of sail to boat speed get a complete set of polars each time with out noise skewing the results.

Anyone got any other useful examples/ideas of uses for the static data snapshots as well as the real time feeds ? there seems little point on competing with Virtual Eye.



The data is there!

Now find a question (to be answered by data anaysis).

Inductive or "grounded" theory.

#336 A Florida Redneck

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:52 AM

Thanks Stan.
Very cool!
Glasnost is good! Very good!! Posted Image

#337 ~Stingray~

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 05:10 PM

^ +1!

Some of the documentation at here has been updated recently

http://www.americascup.com/en/Discover/Documents/Race-Data/ACWS-Plymouth-Data1/

It includes (yes!!) a test applet you can download. By configure-pointing it to the test streamer, you get 'live' (from Plymouth) race data - and it works :)

My screen-shot

Posted Image

#338 Tony-F18

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 05:33 PM

If you could incorporate the data into something like SailX or Virtual Skipper you could potentially race against the Pros in realtime.
Maybe the AC guys can get UBISoft to make a new version of VSK, the AC32 version is still very popular.

#339 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:28 PM

Bump reminder for tomorrow night, this is one I came very close to flying down for

https://www.eventbri...86039606?nomo=1

#340 Observer

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:39 AM

Bump reminder for tomorrow night, this is one I came very close to flying down for

https://www.eventbrite.com/event/2286039606?nomo=1



I'm there....do you have any questions....?

#341 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 01:17 AM

Yes; what apps do they envision, and can we please have the source code to that AcView.exe?

#342 Observer

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 05:16 AM

Yes; what apps do they envision, and can we please have the source code to that AcView.exe?


There were I'd say between 60-100 people at the event. It was a panel format with:

ACEA Head of Marketing
Pete Martin (?) - ACEA Marketing ?
Stan Honey - AC Race Management - Director of Technology
John Craig - PRO - Race Management
Jay Nath - Dir Innovation - City and County of Innovation - Responsible for SF live data streaming (parking availability etc.)

Andrew Ferguson - Director of IT Services was also there from the UK, and other unannounced ACEA people.

They ran though a presentation, each talking about there aspects, with the majority covered by Craig and Stan.

They want people to develop apps, but have no real plan as yet to organize this activity; but have at least now got the Lightstream feed into production (playing Plymouth race in a loop). They said the Lightstream format is available but I've only managed to find the docs for what I believe is the binary format, and not specific to how the data is to be set up in the Lightstream API...

There was a 30 min Q&A at the end, some of them captured below...

Q: Source code for AcView demo app.
A: Yes they will make it available (but need to "fix" some code in it first) This demo app apparently uses the binary feed not the lightstreem feed though. Perhaps they will write a Lightstream one - As a piece of developer community support, where a demo using each client SDK might be a great jumpstart :-)

Q: Where is a HTML/Web Demo they showed ?
A: I could not find it, perhaps they will see this a and post the location. It was on the AC 34 website somewhere.

Q: Will there be a developer forum/community ?
A: Yes....

Q: Will there ever be Wing Angle data ?
A: It's not in the plan but there has been discussion around it

Q: Will there be access to copyright markings and Logos for use in Apps
A: For non free "licensed" apps, there will be permission granted to use Logo's etc. It was asked if there was going to be a "Data Provided by ACEA - AC43" brand that everyone could use to give credibility to their app for use of the data feed. This had not been thought through; but they seemed to take it under advisement.

Q: Free? Commercial use ?
A: If you build a free app you can use the data for free, if you charge you'll need a "license". Questions were asked how they would police this. And if there would be an "App Store" to register and promote apps. This was also taken under advisement.

#343 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:00 PM

^ Thanks for the good report.

Q: Source code for AcView demo app.
A: Yes they will make it available (but need to "fix" some code in it first) This demo app apparently uses the binary feed not the lightstreem feed though. Perhaps they will write a Lightstream one - As a piece of developer community support, where a demo using each client SDK might be a great jumpstart :-)

Definitely!

#344 Xlot

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:51 AM

Apologies if this is already covered, but what is the system's availability for the teams' AC72 private testing? I'm thinking not so much about graphics, but of the 2cm-resolution instrumentation: is there a simplified version that does not require expensive helos, and what's the range from base stations?

Also, ACalphabet's supposed to provide for 72s data sensors and transmitters much more extensive than what we've seen until now: will this be available by next June and will teams be allowed to use it?

#345 nav

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 02:36 PM

Apologies if this is already covered, but what is the system's availability for the teams' AC72 private testing? I'm thinking not so much about graphics, but of the 2cm-resolution instrumentation: is there a simplified version that does not require expensive helos, and what's the range from base stations?

Also, ACalphabet's supposed to provide for 72s data sensors and transmitters much more extensive than what we've seen until now: will this be available by next June and will teams be allowed to use it?


Since all the positioning gear (onboard, ashore and aloft) belongs to ACXX and they have their own crew of guys to put it in and out of the boats daily and strip it and recharge it etc each night, and the fact that testing will be carried out on at least three continents - I would say no, the teams will have to sort themselves out.

*However, if the sensors are more integrated in the 72s than they are in the 45s maybe they at least could be utilised as part of the in-house system???

#346 Xlot

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:04 PM

^^

Thanks. Innocent question then: will OR be able to use it? After all, it's got to be tested/debugged somewhere ..

#347 Observer

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:23 PM

^^

Thanks. Innocent question then: will OR be able to use it? After all, it's got to be tested/debugged somewhere ..


From what I've seen some of the people involved are OR people contracted to ACEA...They have to test it somehow, a defender privilege perhaps...

It will be interesting to see what happens with the 72's, as the team will want their own instrumentation on the boat for their own use and testing, and perhaps the ACXX boxes will need to plug into that so as not to duplicate functionality or instruments...

In F1 all the cars run the same management systems and communications equipment so they can isolate frequencies etc. Is this a similar plan for the on board electronics ? All shore support then need in a microwave receiver on shore and a box to decode the data where ever they are training/developing the boat.

The public/open data stream are probably only going to cover the real event data and nothing from other activity.

#348 Hank Chinaski

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:10 PM



As a tech geek, I really appreciate your posts and look forward to SD. Any chance of doing a behind-the-curtain tour for SAers during the ACWS in SD?



If there is a SA event and we get enough stuff under control that it isn't a techno firedrill in SD, then yes, it would be great to
show things to the gang... I'm up for that.



Oysterhead,

I bet you're real busy right now but how's it looking for a tour? Maybe on one of the laydays (Monday or Tuesday) would work? Anyone else up for coming if OH gets it together?

#349 oysterhead

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 01:27 AM

I bet you're real busy right now but how's it looking for a tour? Maybe on one of the laydays (Monday or Tuesday) would work? Anyone else up for coming if OH gets it together?


Yup, busy is one way to say it. We are thinking about inviting a few SAers on Tuesday at lunchtime.

#350 Observer

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:04 AM


I bet you're real busy right now but how's it looking for a tour? Maybe on one of the laydays (Monday or Tuesday) would work? Anyone else up for coming if OH gets it together?


Yup, busy is one way to say it. We are thinking about inviting a few SAers on Tuesday at lunchtime.


I'm not making it into town till Thursday at this point...if it happened today I hope you had a good time ?!?

#351 Monster Mash

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 06:25 PM

Wow
First time with the new graphics for me yesterday. I love the grey course boundries and the countdown timer for the start. The boat tracks are an interesting visual also but I think I've seen that before. I still think boat seperation should be expressed in boat lengths instead of meters.
Nice job

#352 Observer

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:35 AM

Interesting to see that some seasonal mist had the helicopters on the ground for a while today...

SF in the summer is a often a "Fog Fest", with a regular band of dense fog comming in from the Gate and often reaching Berkeley. Worse sometimes the Bay is entirely fogged out down to a low level. I get's worse as the afternoon progreses!

With that in mind what alternatives are there to getting the system working without helicopters? Putting cameras similar to what they use for "Football" to get the 10yd line to work at strategic high vantage points, perhaps either side of the Gate, on Alcatraz, and on top of Angel Island or other similar location ?

#353 bossarc

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:39 AM

Turns out it was the Navy's radar that was screwing up the television signal from the helicopter! Stan said it was messing with all the video but that it was so bad for the live line shot that they couldn't use it. This high tech stuff is hard.

#354 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:35 AM

Turns out it was the Navy's radar that was screwing up the television signal from the helicopter! Stan said it was messing with all the video but that it was so bad for the live line shot that they couldn't use it. This high tech stuff is hard.


That's the same way smart bombs fall on civil houses.

#355 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 06:14 AM


I bet you're real busy right now but how's it looking for a tour? Maybe on one of the laydays (Monday or Tuesday) would work? Anyone else up for coming if OH gets it together?


Yup, busy is one way to say it. We are thinking about inviting a few SAers on Tuesday at lunchtime.


A fun video walkthrough with Surf City would be pretty sweet.

#356 DufferAlert

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 07:53 AM


Turns out it was the Navy's radar that was screwing up the television signal from the helicopter! Stan said it was messing with all the video but that it was so bad for the live line shot that they couldn't use it. This high tech stuff is hard.


That's the same way smart bombs fall on civil houses.


More likely grunts using the wrong GPS reference frame. Apparently most US army bases in Gulf War 1 were about 3 klicks away from the co-ordinates they quoted ... using north American datum rather than WGS84.

#357 Hank Chinaski

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:17 AM



I bet you're real busy right now but how's it looking for a tour? Maybe on one of the laydays (Monday or Tuesday) would work? Anyone else up for coming if OH gets it together?


Yup, busy is one way to say it. We are thinking about inviting a few SAers on Tuesday at lunchtime.


A fun video walkthrough with Surf City would be pretty sweet.


I had a walk through yesterday. Stan, Oysterhead, and the whole crew are totally stoked about what they're doing and how to make it better. Like making all their data available free in real time so geeks can write apps for viewing the races in different ways. Think of Google Sky Map but instead of looking at the stars you point your phone at the race course and it shows the boats it's pointed at with their vital stats (speed, heading, distance from leader, etc) displayed graphically like in Live Line. When you pan your phone the display changes to show the boats in your field of view. This morning's press briefing was about the Live Line system and how it evolved into a tool for the umpires and the PRO. Surf City was there recording so maybe he'll post it.

I have to compliment the Media Center crew... they do everything they can to get you access to photo and interview opportunities. Yesterday I spent the day in Club 45 on the flight deck of the Midway. I also spent two days on photo boats. The driver I had was a sailor, photographer, and a race official so he was very good at getting the boat in the right place to get the best shots.

Here's a couple shots... I'd post more but it's too late at night to figure out how to upload multiple files.

Attached Files



#358 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 02:24 AM

Oysterhead rocks, Stan too, thanks guys :)

#359 Surf City Racing

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 02:51 AM

Oysterhead rocks, Stan too, thanks guys :)


Totally rocks!



#360 Monster Mash

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:14 AM

Nice job Surf City

#361 DufferAlert

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 12:35 PM

The port/Starboard entry lines were nice, although a bit dark so hard to spot at times (longer shot).

I noted that the flags were flying in the wrong direction ;-) Would be nice to see the speeds a bit more. You seem to have dropped showing the distance to the boundary, which was confusing before as it could have been distance behind leader.

When a lead change happens, it's a bit confusing - numbers count down, screen goes blank, then you get new leader. Maybe you could show the two boat names alongside one another with the second boat a bit down and rising up?

Seemed to be a lot more on board footage. Sometimes that was truly excellent - seeing the crosses, looking up at the Artemis jib wrap, top work. Would be nice to use split screen/screen in screen to see the overall race position whilst following something like the drama of Artemis snafu.

Rounding shots from mark boats are great too.

It would be a bit confusing to the uninitiated with the commentators using higher/lower at the starts when the screen is the other way around

#362 RMK

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:00 AM

Wind? With all the technology and cool graphics we still have the commentators guessing the wind speeds and if there was a shift or not. Be nice to see real time wind speed and direction from all the mark boats and or boats on the boundaries.

Love the coverage so far.

#363 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:33 AM

At one point during the recent event I recall seeing angle of heel posted on the boats for a brief period of time.

Might be interesting to see this during the speed trials and during close boat on boat racing as an indication of the helmsman/wing trimmers ability to coordinate efforts and any subsequent results in boat performance.

#364 Monster Mash

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:38 AM

What SW said above +
If you're going to show a heel angle then somebody should explain what the target angle is and why.
Love what you're doing.

#365 fogmachine

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:43 AM

The LL feed is fantastic, thanks guys!

I kept thinking I'd like to see more wind information - where is the pressure, where are the shifts - but then realized that without sensors everywhere this would be kind of hard. Maybe some of that laser backscatter technology. But it looks like you have your hands full and more data probably isn't what's needed.

On a practical note, it would be great if the light status (green, red, blue, yellow, yellow flash rate) could be repeated on LL - especially in fleet racing when the commentary focuses on one story while so many others happening. I suppose this is available in the free data stream so I could write my own app, but with one screen showing commentary and the other with LL I'd need another computer in the bedroom.

Hope you can keep it up - this is the most amazing technology live integration story I've seen in a long time.

#366 oysterhead

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:28 PM

Thanks for the feedback everyone. We've got a few months now to figure out how things
mature from working prototype to production system. Many changes will probably be invisible
(internal architecture) and the rest can be refinements. We have much bigger dreams but
getting to them will require significant investment / change of priorities on an event scale.

Please keep your feedback coming. We do appreciate it!

#367 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:06 PM

Nice ink
---

LiveLine technology to keep tabs on America's Cup
Benny Evangelista, Chronicle Staff Writer

http://www.sfgate.co.../BUM01MCO1F.DTL

#368 Hank Chinaski

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:25 PM

Oysterhead,

I'm not sure you are back at work or even monitoring SA but if you are:

I'm wondering if you can provide any updates on the apps being developed by third parties? Are some programmers in regular contact with you or are they off on their own? I remember you saying there was an app being developed that was similar to Google Sky Map. It will superimpose race data on your smartphone screen when you point it at the boats while they're racing.

Now that the Liveline crew have had a break from the action what sort of new enhancements are you working on?

Thanks again for the tour of your facility during the ACWS in SD.

#369 Observer

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 08:21 PM

Oysterhead,

I'm not sure you are back at work or even monitoring SA but if you are:

I'm wondering if you can provide any updates on the apps being developed by third parties? Are some programmers in regular contact with you or are they off on their own? I remember you saying there was an app being developed that was similar to Google Sky Map. It will superimpose race data on your smartphone screen when you point it at the boats while they're racing.

Now that the Liveline crew have had a break from the action what sort of new enhancements are you working on?

Thanks again for the tour of your facility during the ACWS in SD.


Hank et al

Oysterhead is largely back at his day job (Teaching up in Washington State) from what I understand and largely is mostly only involved when the racing is going on. It is however great that he keeps in touch with us all here on SA, that I know is appreciated by many.

Liveline uses the data stream they are making public available, currently in a fairly tough to use binary format. There are announced plans to make a more friendly stream available though Lightstreamer, but this from my recent conversations with Stan, Ken & Co. is still being worked on.

I'm prototyping something just now to take and re-package and augment (with useful additional calculated data points) this data and re-stream it and make it available for deeper historical analysis or app use. When I have something useful I may post a link here.

Ken Milnes updated the binary data specification, on Dec 12 2011, and updated to a more recent stream from the SD ACWS event given some feedback from observations of an older replay from Plymouth, and here is the latest link to the spec: http://www.americasc...ecification.pdf

BTW for this updated replay race data stream (on continuous replay). The stream has over 250k messages for the 40 min race, and if you miss information early in the stream timeline you'll lack context to the rest of the data.

Bear in mind that the use case design requirements for this data was to support the needs of the Race Management/Umpire and Liveline systems...they just decided to make this data publicly available, as is...the use cases are much different for more casual app use that may not be running from before the start of a race, or may, given signal of internet connection availability issues, have it's connection interrupted at the critical moment of a once a race message. Also given that there is limited processing power on most mobile devices processing more data than needed for a specific app may be challenging if not a waste of scarce bandwidth or mobile network data allowances (assuming no Wi-Fi access) and those precious CPU cycles.

I'd also be interested though in who has plans to build apps to use this underlying data (regardless of format) and what any specific data needs might be or the axis on which the data might need to be oriented. I can then bear that in mind with my prototype in the hopes that it can more easily support those use cases/usage scenarios earlier than later.

I expect it would be good to be able to track and compare the track, rounding’s and general performance of each boat for each rounding in a race and even across races should the data be normalized or comparable against a reference, that might include continually evolving polars and taking the performance improvements over time of those polars as boat/sail development continues and the 72's get launched, and have on-board wind instruments that the 45' don't have. I also have some interesting ideas around visualizations for the speed trials (are they even going to exist for the 72's in the ACWS or LVC?).

There is likely to be different apps to sever the needs of those both following the race remotely and those on site using their mobile device du jour.

The challenge for all developers is that a continuous replay of a given race stream is all good, but the more different data sets and volume of data that can be tested against will make any apps developed be more reliable in handling the millions of variables that a single stream likely wont contain. As such any app reliability will need to evolve of the next few ACWS events, and that its a long wait 'till late April in Venice for anything new to test "live" against. Perhaps they will be an opportunity to stream data from any organized (but unofficial) practice races in Valencia?

If anyone wants to discuss more please send me a personal message here

Happy New Year!

#370 Hank Chinaski

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 10:51 PM


Oysterhead,

I'm not sure you are back at work or even monitoring SA but if you are:

I'm wondering if you can provide any updates on the apps being developed by third parties? Are some programmers in regular contact with you or are they off on their own? I remember you saying there was an app being developed that was similar to Google Sky Map. It will superimpose race data on your smartphone screen when you point it at the boats while they're racing.

Now that the Liveline crew have had a break from the action what sort of new enhancements are you working on?

Thanks again for the tour of your facility during the ACWS in SD.


Hank et al

Oysterhead is largely back at his day job (Teaching up in Washington State) from what I understand and largely is mostly only involved when the racing is going on. It is however great that he keeps in touch with us all here on SA, that I know is appreciated by many.

Liveline uses the data stream they are making public available, currently in a fairly tough to use binary format. There are announced plans to make a more friendly stream available though Lightstreamer, but this from my recent conversations with Stan, Ken & Co. is still being worked on.

I'm prototyping something just now to take and re-package and augment (with useful additional calculated data points) this data and re-stream it and make it available for deeper historical analysis or app use. When I have something useful I may post a link here.

Ken Milnes updated the binary data specification, on Dec 12 2011, and updated to a more recent stream from the SD ACWS event given some feedback from observations of an older replay from Plymouth, and here is the latest link to the spec: http://www.americasc...ecification.pdf

BTW for this updated replay race data stream (on continuous replay). The stream has over 250k messages for the 40 min race, and if you miss information early in the stream timeline you'll lack context to the rest of the data.

Bear in mind that the use case design requirements for this data was to support the needs of the Race Management/Umpire and Liveline systems...they just decided to make this data publicly available, as is...the use cases are much different for more casual app use that may not be running from before the start of a race, or may, given signal of internet connection availability issues, have it's connection interrupted at the critical moment of a once a race message. Also given that there is limited processing power on most mobile devices processing more data than needed for a specific app may be challenging if not a waste of scarce bandwidth or mobile network data allowances (assuming no Wi-Fi access) and those precious CPU cycles.

I'd also be interested though in who has plans to build apps to use this underlying data (regardless of format) and what any specific data needs might be or the axis on which the data might need to be oriented. I can then bear that in mind with my prototype in the hopes that it can more easily support those use cases/usage scenarios earlier than later.

I expect it would be good to be able to track and compare the track, rounding’s and general performance of each boat for each rounding in a race and even across races should the data be normalized or comparable against a reference, that might include continually evolving polars and taking the performance improvements over time of those polars as boat/sail development continues and the 72's get launched, and have on-board wind instruments that the 45' don't have. I also have some interesting ideas around visualizations for the speed trials (are they even going to exist for the 72's in the ACWS or LVC?).

There is likely to be different apps to sever the needs of those both following the race remotely and those on site using their mobile device du jour.

The challenge for all developers is that a continuous replay of a given race stream is all good, but the more different data sets and volume of data that can be tested against will make any apps developed be more reliable in handling the millions of variables that a single stream likely wont contain. As such any app reliability will need to evolve of the next few ACWS events, and that its a long wait 'till late April in Venice for anything new to test "live" against. Perhaps they will be an opportunity to stream data from any organized (but unofficial) practice races in Valencia?

If anyone wants to discuss more please send me a personal message here

Happy New Year!


Observer,

I looked at the PDF and wish I could understand more of it but I'm an end user not a programmer. I really appreciate your update and hope you continue to post here.

Hank

#371 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 11:31 PM

Observer, I have a rough audio recording from the backstage tour we got, including when you asked Stan about time syncing to the broadcast and he mentioned the possibility to use 'scene changes.' PM me if you'd like that audio, in which case I'll try figure how to get it off a phone in a useful segment.

Am so glad there's interest in this subject, the possibilities are waay cool.

#372 Observer

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 03:50 AM

Observer, I have a rough audio recording from the backstage tour we got, including when you asked Stan about time syncing to the broadcast and he mentioned the possibility to use 'scene changes.' PM me if you'd like that audio, in which case I'll try figure how to get it off a phone in a useful segment.

Am so glad there's interest in this subject, the possibilities are waay cool.


Stingers - No Problem...Not my major concern just now. I did had a chat with some folks at Adobe, and what really needs to happen (apparently) is for the timecode to be embedded in the video stream so it can be used to synchronize any data that is being displayed along side it. This is great for those watching remotely; but those live at the action will have to cope with the latency of the video and decide if they want data synced to any video or as fast as their app can get it (which will no doubt have some latency too), which brings the relevancy of this conversation back to Liveline, and things that the AC34 Technology team have an influence over.

#373 Observer

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:01 AM

Observer,

I looked at the PDF and wish I could understand more of it but I'm an end user not a programmer. I really appreciate your update and hope you continue to post here.

Hank


Hank - No Problem, It would be great if the AC43 Tech folks would actually create a forum for those technologist that are doing stuff with the data and allow them all to share insights, the basis of a community that might build momentum.

In their previous endeavors where they made the data available (for the baseball thing) there is a bigger audience that is all about statistics and as such perhaps did not need to build a community to get people to develop apps, they could all but fall over each other to do something with it. I've not looked; but expect that the data in the AC34 feed is far more complex, and the barrier to understanding, and thus entry, is higher, making a more formal community invaluable. With this AC data there is a need for collaboration not competition.

If there are any interested technologists out there, please ping me a PM an perhaps we can set up something informal.

#374 Dixie

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:38 AM

^They can just set one up here. :-)

On another note, I ran into a Random Guy at a Bar in Brooklyn and after talking about the violence of the NHL, the speed of NASCAR, and college football, we had a fun chat about the AC. This guy was just as excited about sailboat racing and learning about what was happening now as he was about Hockey. I kinda couldn't believe it. He was a hoot. His name was Joe.

His last memory of the AC was New Zealand and then legal battles. He wasn't sure if the USA had the AC now. He liked watching on TV, but wish he could understand it better, even though he did race as a kid. Long story short, when I showed Joe the first video I could find on YT which turned out to be from SD, he said, that's exactly what I was talking about! He got the grid lines right away, loved the circles around the marks, loved the LiveLine views (go Oysterhead!!) and also the onboard cameras were a real hit.

He went on with a few questions, related to his prior experience watching and remembering wind speed, boat speed, wind shadows etc:

-Can we see, or will they tell us when a boat is covering another boats wind? (Yes they tell us)
-Can we see the speed of the wind? Good question.
-Can we we see distances in feet? That's what Americans understand, you know? hmm.
-I think there should be an underwater camera at the mark roundings. And if you ask them that, can they call it Gator Cam? That's my nick name.
Gosh I hope so.

#375 PeterHuston

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:52 AM

^They can just set one up here. :-)

On another note, I ran into a Random Guy at a Bar in Brooklyn and after talking about the violence of the NHL, the speed of NASCAR, and college football, we had a fun chat about the AC. This guy was just as excited about sailboat racing and learning about what was happening now as he was about Hockey. I kinda couldn't believe it. He was a hoot. His name was Joe.

His last memory of the AC was New Zealand and then legal battles. He wasn't sure if the USA had the AC now. He liked watching on TV, but wish he could understand it better, even though he did race as a kid. Long story short, when I showed Joe the first video I could find on YT which turned out to be from SD, he said, that's exactly what I was talking about! He got the grid lines right away, loved the circles around the marks, loved the LiveLine views (go Oysterhead!!) and also the onboard cameras were a real hit.

He went on with a few questions, related to his prior experience watching and remembering wind speed, boat speed, wind shadows etc:

-Can we see, or will they tell us when a boat is covering another boats wind? (Yes they tell us)
-Can we see the speed of the wind? Good question.
-Can we we see distances in feet? That's what Americans understand, you know? hmm.
-I think there should be an underwater camera at the mark roundings. And if you ask them that, can they call it Gator Cam? That's my nick name.
Gosh I hope so.


Did you get a chance to show him the checked flag and ask him if he liked that?

#376 Dixie

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:51 PM


^They can just set one up here. :-)

On another note, I ran into a Random Guy at a Bar in Brooklyn and after talking about the violence of the NHL, the speed of NASCAR, and college football, we had a fun chat about the AC. This guy was just as excited about sailboat racing and learning about what was happening now as he was about Hockey. I kinda couldn't believe it. He was a hoot. His name was Joe.

His last memory of the AC was New Zealand and then legal battles. He wasn't sure if the USA had the AC now. He liked watching on TV, but wish he could understand it better, even though he did race as a kid. Long story short, when I showed Joe the first video I could find on YT which turned out to be from SD, he said, that's exactly what I was talking about! He got the grid lines right away, loved the circles around the marks, loved the LiveLine views (go Oysterhead!!) and also the onboard cameras were a real hit.

He went on with a few questions, related to his prior experience watching and remembering wind speed, boat speed, wind shadows etc:

-Can we see, or will they tell us when a boat is covering another boats wind? (Yes they tell us)
-Can we see the speed of the wind? Good question.
-Can we we see distances in feet? That's what Americans understand, you know? hmm.
-I think there should be an underwater camera at the mark roundings. And if you ask them that, can they call it Gator Cam? That's my nick name.
Gosh I hope so.


Did you get a chance to show him the checked flag and ask him if he liked that?


Hmm, to stir the pot or not to stir the pot?

It was refreshing, frankly, to talk to someone so far outside of this space, but still a lover, generally of sailing. He's not a traditionalist, but not a facebooker either. Just likes to watch sports, the characters, and loves intrigue. His first recollection of the TV coverage of the characters in the AC was one way back of a tipsy Ted Turner. I couldn't find that video, but did find this fun relic. 60 minutes coverage of the defender selection series in 1977: Hood v. North v. Turner

#377 ~HHN92~

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:16 AM



^They can just set one up here. :-)

On another note, I ran into a Random Guy at a Bar in Brooklyn and after talking about the violence of the NHL, the speed of NASCAR, and college football, we had a fun chat about the AC. This guy was just as excited about sailboat racing and learning about what was happening now as he was about Hockey. I kinda couldn't believe it. He was a hoot. His name was Joe.

His last memory of the AC was New Zealand and then legal battles. He wasn't sure if the USA had the AC now. He liked watching on TV, but wish he could understand it better, even though he did race as a kid. Long story short, when I showed Joe the first video I could find on YT which turned out to be from SD, he said, that's exactly what I was talking about! He got the grid lines right away, loved the circles around the marks, loved the LiveLine views (go Oysterhead!!) and also the onboard cameras were a real hit.

He went on with a few questions, related to his prior experience watching and remembering wind speed, boat speed, wind shadows etc:

-Can we see, or will they tell us when a boat is covering another boats wind? (Yes they tell us)
-Can we see the speed of the wind? Good question.
-Can we we see distances in feet? That's what Americans understand, you know? hmm.
-I think there should be an underwater camera at the mark roundings. And if you ask them that, can they call it Gator Cam? That's my nick name.
Gosh I hope so.


Did you get a chance to show him the checked flag and ask him if he liked that?


Hmm, to stir the pot or not to stir the pot?

It was refreshing, frankly, to talk to someone so far outside of this space, but still a lover, generally of sailing. He's not a traditionalist, but not a facebooker either. Just likes to watch sports, the characters, and loves intrigue. His first recollection of the TV coverage of the characters in the AC was one way back of a tipsy Ted Turner. I couldn't find that video, but did find this fun relic. 60 minutes coverage of the defender selection series in 1977: Hood v. North v. Turner


"....it's like war without the killing....."

Only from Turner.

I like the hiking stick that North put on the wheel of Enterprise. Then you also had Pelle Pettersen with the tiller on Sverige, along with the cycle grinders. And I graduated high school.

What a year.

#378 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:41 PM

Fun read

AC34: On board the Committee Boat
http://www.panbo.com...ittee_boat.html

#379 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 03:11 AM

^ one of the lines from that article - it's quite rich in the hyperlinks too

"In fact, if you click above for the full image you'll see that he's also laid out a race route so that Expedition can use polars for the AC45 catamaran one design to calculate a total time for the course."

#380 Observer

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:04 AM

^ one of the lines from that article - it's quite rich in the hyperlinks too

"In fact, if you click above for the full image you'll see that he's also laid out a race route so that Expedition can use polars for the AC45 catamaran one design to calculate a total time for the course."


Have the One Design AC45 polars been made available ?

With the AC45's boats missing wind instrumentation it's going to be a little difficult to build polars off the archive (and ongoing) data available, albeit an approximation could be derived based of readings from the nearby mark boats (that I believe do have the necessary instrumentation). It would then be possible to detect how well a given boat is being sailed at any given time as an additional data point - As a "Performance Percentage" ?

For the AC72's when they launch, this is going to have to be built off the data, as the teams are not going to want to "share" this information. At least there are plans to be able to have them transmit wind data (per the data specs); we'll have to see if that actually happens.

This data will of course evolve even with the 45's as the teams develop their soft sails, and for the 72's, their polars are likely going to be a continual evolution, that might also be worth tracking and comparing between events.

#381 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:22 AM

^ Great minds... Love the 'Performance Percentage' idea.

#382 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:43 PM

Observer, is this you? Sweet start!



America's Cup World Series San Diego Match Racing
Last Qualifying Match between Seed 4 Artemis (AR1) and Aleph (ALF). Winner will advance to semi-finals.
Replay video created by www.sailplots.com with data from America's Cup Web Site (http://www.americasc...ents/Race-Data/)
www.sailplots.com can create replay of your sailboat races from data from your smart phone.


#383 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:45 PM



America's Cup World Series San Diego Match Racing
Fourth Qualifying Match between Oracle Racing Coutts (OR5) and Aleph (ALF). Winner will race Seed 4 Artemis.
Replay video created by www.sailplots.com with data from America's Cup Web Site (http://www.americasc...ents/Race-Data/)
www.sailplots.com can create replay of your sailboat races from data from your smart phone


#384 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:48 PM

more of the above: http://www.youtube.com/user/Sailplots

#385 ~Stingray~

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:15 AM

more of the above: http://www.youtube.com/user/Sailplots

Am surprised at the lack of comments so far.

Whoever has got this going on has got the foundation laid for very good - possibly live too - sophisticated race data analysis. I've not seen anything AC like this ever produced for free, the closest was the pay-for-subscription downloadable whatever-viewer-name thing from AC32. That was also good (actually, better) but this darn thing has potential if he has all the race feed detail these videos must have required.

Tip of the cap.

#386 SW Sailor

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 04:21 AM

more of the above: http://www.youtube.com/user/Sailplots


Interesting to watch some of the races.

Certainly clarifies when match race tactics came into play.

#387 Alpina

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:56 PM

Nice part in the latest ACU episode, can't get enough of this stuff. Can you show us more Oysterhead?

#388 ~Stingray~

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:40 PM

Nice part in the latest ACU episode, can't get enough of this stuff. Can you show us more Oysterhead?

+1

Stan H showed some fun video segments last night, of what the umpires see on their screens to for example tell which boat entered the mark zone first. He also mentioned why the zone circle is made not exactly round, it having somthing to do with the shape of the boats. Would be fun to see more of that published, for us geeks. He also said that, while the system can make 'suggestions' about who committed what objective infraction, the decision to call a penalty is still left to the umpires; it is not done automatically.

On penalties, after what had been a slow start for some teams there has been an acceleration in their recognition of how important it is to clear your penalty asap, rather than wait the 20 seconds (was it?) before the computed-advance line slows to 75%, forcing you to hold up for increasingly longer to clear it. Says the teams are getting pretty good at it now.

On the graphics elements in general (boundary lines for example) he noted that since viewers and commentators can now readily and immediately tell when skippers screw up, some skippers were uncomfortable with the whole notion of it. As professionals they were afraid of being embarrassed by their mistakes. But they've gotten used to it and have also gotten increasingly used to the fact that the umpires are now far more right than they are, about who committed what infraction. It's a bit like in Baseball, where umpires calling the strike zone were intially reluctant to have that technology, until they realized how well it proved how accurately the umpires were already calling balls and strikes. Now they love it, because it proves how good they are, and so do the sailing umpires.

Something else he mentioned was that to achieve the 2cm accuracy of the boats, projected LL elements, etc, they eventually had to position the helicopter cameras GPS locators on the same mountings as what the cameras are on, the camera mount hanging front and below the 'copter. When they had the locator elsewhere on the 'copter then the torque and resulting body-warp of the copter would affect its position-accuracy.

On the live-data sets, and the stored versions, which he noted are freely available for the first time ever: he said that there was initial consternation about all that; but more-advanced teams like it because they can analyze it more, and less advanced teams like it because they can learn from the behavior of the advanced teams.

He also said that some teams have created sophisticated polars from the AC45 livestream datasets, which ACRM now has too and uses as part of their course setup calculations, to for example help create an exactly-40-minute race. ~And~ they requested and received projected polars for the AC72's... data that he laughingly suggested he does not necessarily trust but that is still ballpark-useful enough to them in planning for the LVC and AC.

Stan and Craig did the trip voluntarily, in part to help The Sailing Foundation grow support from the sailing community for the all-volunteer work that organization does, in promoting Youth Sailing and others missions. Along with the strong attendance, that part of the show was a surprise to me - they have almost 30 Puget Sound area high schools enrolled now, it's a very good program.

Many in the audience knew them both and there was a good crowd surrounding them after the their presentations and videos. I recognized John Roussmainiere (sp?) in the audience, Bill Buchan, Dick Rose spoke, etc.

Really enjoyed it. Thanks, Stan! ps: Oh, and can we please see those 45 Polars?

#389 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

'Java and the America's Cup'
http://prsync.com/or...cas-cup-419831/

#390 Rennmaus

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:27 AM







#391 STYACHT

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

Sorry if this has been linked, but it takes too long to go through most AC threads.


Above is a link to an ESPN sponsors analytics conference. Pretty boring because they do not pan to the Liveline graphics, but SA gets a big plug from Stan Honey in the ~ the 37th minute.

And no end of great smurks! You get the sense he is in a room full of mortals.
Attached File  shot.png   897.35K   5 downloads

#392 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:20 PM

'Java and the America's Cup'
http://prsync.com/oracle/java-and-the-americas-cup-419831/

Yes, fun plug for SA, only wish we were quite that adept at analyzing the data.

The project at the link above has good potential.

#393 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:04 PM

From http://www.yachtingm...-your-attention
--
The 34th America's Cup will showcase some of the most advanced technology ever used in sailboat racing. Electronics editor Ben Ellison gives us a preview.
cntd

#394 stanhoney

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:32 AM


more of the above: http://www.youtube.com/user/Sailplots

Am surprised at the lack of comments so far.

Whoever has got this going on has got the foundation laid for very good - possibly live too - sophisticated race data analysis. I've not seen anything AC like this ever produced for free, the closest was the pay-for-subscription downloadable whatever-viewer-name thing from AC32. That was also good (actually, better) but this darn thing has potential if he has all the race feed detail these videos must have required.

Tip of the cap.



It is terrific to see folks using the LiveLine data. Compliments to Sailplots.

#395 JackGriffin

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:43 AM

Sorry if this has been linked, but it takes too long to go through most AC threads.


Above is a link to an ESPN sponsors analytics conference. Pretty boring because they do not pan to the Liveline graphics, but SA gets a big plug from Stan Honey in the ~ the 37th minute.

And no end of great smurks! You get the sense he is in a room full of mortals.
Attached File  shot.png   897.35K   5 downloads


Yeah, too bad they didn't show the screen. But... 19' 05" into Stan's talk, he explains a leeward gate rounding situation in Plymouth between Coutts and Spithill. Spithill comes out with a penalty.

If you look at 2' 50" into this video briefing I did, you will see the action Stan was talking about, with my attempt at a "telestrator" chalk talk of what happened. http://tinyurl.com/8xa3czy

BTW, earlier in his talk Stan mentions the remote control of the onboard cameras for pan, tilt, zoom and focus. But he forgot something! If you look at my video from 4' 01" to 4' 05" you'll see that they also have remote control for a wiper!

Feedback welcome!!

#396 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:08 AM

Yes, those vids of yours have been posted and got compliments.

Cool video tools, subject choices and illustration methods you use. The extensive effort is obvious.

#397 Observer

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:50 AM


more of the above: http://www.youtube.com/user/Sailplots

Am surprised at the lack of comments so far.

Whoever has got this going on has got the foundation laid for very good - possibly live too - sophisticated race data analysis. I've not seen anything AC like this ever produced for free, the closest was the pay-for-subscription downloadable whatever-viewer-name thing from AC32. That was also good (actually, better) but this darn thing has potential if he has all the race feed detail these videos must have required.

Tip of the cap.


Stingers your right this stuff is cool...I'm assume its based off the archive files, or was something set up to capture the data prior to SD. Perhaps it plays the output and uses a program such as captivate to record the videos ?

#398 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:19 AM

^ there are so many possibilities.

For Live to a phone, even just a simple Who Is Ahead real-time bar would be compelling.

It's not that simple a calculation but could be figured with some polar math. Wish they just included some calculated data too?

Mashup w Google Earth has huge potential too but may require client-power.

#399 Observer

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:26 PM

^ there are so many possibilities.

For Live to a phone, even just a simple Who Is Ahead real-time bar would be compelling.

It's not that simple a calculation but could be figured with some polar math. Wish they just included some calculated data too?

Mashup w Google Earth has huge potential too but may require client-power.



I believe there are some efforts going to get the Race Management data stream more available through LightStreamer, out there, but as you say it would be good to have "all" the data manipulation/calculation that everyone would need, and perhaps more, as part of the data platform. It takes the computational load of the mobile device, and allows the developers to concentrate on the presentation layer, albeit in some cases that might also be CPU intensive depending on the visualization.

#400 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:49 PM


For Live to a phone, even just a simple Who Is Ahead real-time bar would be compelling.

It's not that simple a calculation but could be figured with some polar math. Wish they just included some calculated data too?



I believe there are some efforts going to get the Race Management data stream more available through LightStreamer, out there, but as you say it would be good to have "all" the data manipulation/calculation that everyone would need, and perhaps more, as part of the data platform. It takes the computational load of the mobile device, and allows the developers to concentrate on the presentation layer, albeit in some cases that might also be CPU intensive depending on the visualization.

Right. Absent what you suggest, you'd almost want to set up a 'SmartStreamer' for the end-device to connect to. example:

LightStreamer -> SmartStreamer -> DisplayApp

The DisplayApp could subscribe to Smart services as appropriate to what View they select, such as Module(views): Countdown (to start, race details) Who's Ahead (bar chart, overview plot, ..), Speeds (current, average, gaining..), Penalty Statuses (outstanding, completed), Tide (..). Wind (..), Boat (OR readouts, AR, ..) - the service connected to depending on the mode selected. ie: multiple thin smart-pipes instead of a really fat raw-data pipe.

An advantage of having that SmartStreamer (or better yet, the derived data being already calc'd and available from LightStreamer as the source) besides lightening the end-device load, is easier device independence thru simpler apps.

I'm guessing that the trick for them would be to reach deeper into to their own down-stream processes for getting feeds of the richer stuff; but that may interfere with their own s/w and it's hard to know how easy it would be to pipe/serve what may be direct graphics or polar API calls for them internally. Could be too big an ask. A SmartStreamer may also insulate one from needing to make specific asks of them - and give yourself much better control of the derivations you're after.

SH said in the video above (think he said so in Seattle too) he thinks there is now source code posted - is that true and is it LS based?




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