1039 replies to this topic

[Salazar]

Did you notice you now have another previous name?: "SEA SERENADE" previous owner "DALE J WEEKS"

[Ajax]

No! Where the hell did you see that!?

Edit: Nevermind, I ran the number through the other link and got the other name and owner. Cool...

I wonder if the bell I found with the name Sunday Sun was bought second-hand, and placed on the boat, or if the boat ever really was named Sunday Sun? I can't imagine someone ignoring tradition that way, but it's possible...

[floating dutchman]

Ajax: I'd be interested in seeing a pick of the cleat that holds the luff-rope to control shape, Seem like it would work in theory but I can't see how it would handle out haul tension.

The issue with sliding gosenecks is that boat owners were using it a a way to get "free" sailarea, I'm sure there is no rule against using it now but you would have to have a main that shorter in the luff to be able to get tension in heaver winds without going outside the bands. Cunningham gets around this rule. But you already know this.

Does sound like it's not the original main for the boat.

Good score on finding out the history of your boat, My boat was built in 1975 but doesn't seem to exist before 1997.

[Ajax]

I just bent on the mainsail yesterday, after having it measured. I'll take a photo of the setup this afternoon. Dutch, there's still a tack cringle which is anchored to the boom with a shackle. That is what takes the load of the outhaul, not the cleat and the funky adjustable luff line.

In other news, I made a slight modification to my traveler which will make it much easier to adjust whether I'm singlehanding, or have a main trimmer sitting behind me. The placement of the end blocks and cam cleats was pretty inconvenient for dedicated main trimmer, and wasn't great for me either. Credit goes to Merit25, as I stole the idea from him.

[Hike, Bitches!]

Ajax..take some fucking pictures..you think everyone else has a brand new race boat or a conveniently placed traveler on the cabin house? I still have track stops with fucking pins in them!

[Salazar]

You tell him Bitches!

[Hike, Bitches!]

In all fairness Salazar...I'd give my left nut for a C&C 37/40 XL

[Salazar]

They are going for a bit less than that these days...

[savoir]

I just bent on the mainsail yesterday, after having it measured. I'll take a photo of the setup this afternoon. Dutch, there's still a tack cringle which is anchored to the boom with a shackle. That is what takes the load of the outhaul, not the cleat and the funky adjustable luff line.

In other news, I made a slight modification to my traveler which will make it much easier to adjust whether I'm singlehanding, or have a main trimmer sitting behind me. The placement of the end blocks and cam cleats was pretty inconvenient for dedicated main trimmer, and wasn't great for me either. Credit goes to Merit25, as I stole the idea from him.

The best thing to do with your traveller when singlehanding is to centre it, cleat it off, forget it's there.

[Ajax]

Wheres the fun in that? Pulling strings is half the fun!

[Hike, Bitches!]

where are the pictures Ajax? ? ? ?

[steele]

Yes, has the owner of a crap pin stop traveler I want to see what you are writing about.

[Hike, Bitches!]

steele, what's funny is Ajax lives about 200 yards (OK 200 meters) from his boat!!!! We'll just keep bugging him.

[savoir]

Wheres the fun in that? Pulling strings is half the fun!

K.I.S.S.

[bljones]

Wheres the fun in that? Pulling strings is half the fun!

Unless it occurs during oral sex.

[crash]

In all fairness Salazar...I'd give my left nut for a C&C 37/40 XL

HB, here's a 34 R (smaller sister, racing version) at a screaming good price. Wonder why the price is so low?

http://strictlysaili...sifieds/20220ab

[Salazar]

The R version is always cheaper. Often by half or more. There is a 37R with sale pending with the asking down to US$37,900.00 This price difference goes for both the 37R and the 34R. Partly because the R versions have usually been used hard. Mostly due to the more basic, stripped out interior making them less desirable as a cruiser.

As an example I'll attach two views of the main cabin and aft cabin, one from an 37/40 XL (the + is identical) and one from a 37R. You can guess which is which.

Mind you, if you are doing a long ocean passage you might be better off in an R with its open transom, pilot berths, sail bins in the forepeak, forward facing nav station, etc.

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•  Wizard 10.jpg   48.6K   9 downloads

[Ajax]

Ok, ok, here are the pictures!

First, the funky, adjustable luff rope and the cam cleat. Note that the tack is anchored to the gooseneck by the traditional cringle.



Next, the old traveler end block and cleat affair. This was not very good for anyone.




The new method, stolen from Merit25:




Get rid of that pin-stop shit.

Oh, my dinner date from a week or two ago:

[Slick470]

Ajax, for that traveller setup, either tie the tails of the traveller lines together or get a single line. With them connected you can release the other cam cleat from the other side of the boat. Makes life easier if you are on one side and you forgot to release before you got there or forgot the other tail.

[floating dutchman]

Ahh now I see how that cunning thing works, Neat idea if it worked, Oh well at least you have a place for the real cunningham on your new main.

[stickboy]

Ok, ok, here are the pictures!

First, the funky, adjustable luff rope and the cam cleat. Note that the tack is anchored to the gooseneck by the traditional cringle.

I think that shackle is backwards. That shackle has a cam shaped bottom that if you turn it around it will hold the tack further forward. It probably doesn't matter on this sail but it might on the new one, On Rita P I actually take a sail tie and wrap it around the mast to pull the tack further forward. The cam is a good theory but it doesn't work all that well, especially if the aluminum casting that it pushes against is worn.

[crash]

The R version is always cheaper. Often by half or more. There is a 37R with sale pending with the asking down to US$37,900.00 This price difference goes for both the 37R and the 34R. Partly because the R versions have usually been used hard. Mostly due to the more basic, stripped out interior making them less desirable as a cruiser.

As an example I'll attach two views of the main cabin and aft cabin, one from an 37/40 XL (the + is identical) and one from a 37R. You can guess which is which.

Mind you, if you are doing a long ocean passage you might be better off in an R with its open transom, pilot berths, sail bins in the forepeak, forward facing nav station, etc.

Not exactly fair to show the XL with all the gear stowed and the R with all the gear all over. It must be the racer in me, but I like the look of the R. I have a real soft spot for pilot berths...
But I didn't realize that R often went for that much less then XLs/+s...wow...that would seem to make well cared for R's good deals.

[Salazar]

Those photos are all off Yachtworld listings (I don't have a wide enough lens to take a decent photo of the aft cabin in mine so I just pulled ones from Yachtworld I had on file).

It's weird but all of the photos I have for various +'s and XL, the gear is all stowed away neatly. All the photos I have for R's the gear is strewn about like this.

You'd think if they were trying to sell a boat they might tidy it up a bit but all the R listings seem to look like that (that's if they even show the interior at all).

I think some of the well cared for R's are a great deal. There is one for sale in Halifax, Third Wave, that is a little worn looking inside but has been a very successful racer.

"This particular model has an enviable race record including: a PHRF Class win in the Marblehead to Halifax Race 2001; winner of the Premier Class Association Season Championship in 2003, 2004, 2006 & 2010 (Nova Scotia's top circuit); second in class in the 2010 Route Halifax Saint Pierre, and many of her local club series."

The owner died suddenly so the boat is up for sale.

Photo of Third Wave coming into St. Pierre attached provided courtesy © Jean-Christophe L'Espagnol / v.s.p.

Attached Files

•  ThirdWave15.jpg   614.69K   16 downloads

[crash]

These photos are all off Yachtworld listings (I don't have a wide enough lens to take a decent photo of the aft cabin in mine so I just pulled ones I had on file).

It's weird but all of the photos I have for various +'s and XL, the gear is all stowed away neatly. All the photos I have for R's the gear is strewn about like this.

You'd think if they were trying to sell a boat they might tidy it up a bit but all the R listings seem to look like that (that's if they even show the interior at all).

You're right...I've always wondered about how people can list their boats for sale, and then not be bothered to do anything to make it look presentable/attractive to a potential buyer. I've never paid attention to whether its split by racers vs. cruisers. But most of the listings I look at are for racers you might be on to a weird phenomenon....

[savoir]

Ok, ok, here are the pictures!

First, the funky, adjustable luff rope and the cam cleat. Note that the tack is anchored to the gooseneck by the traditional cringle.



Next, the old traveler end block and cleat affair. This was not very good for anyone.




The new method, stolen from Merit25:




Get rid of that pin-stop shit.

Oh, my dinner date from a week or two ago:

So she's really into boats ?

[froggie]

That shackle is clearly on in the right direction - It's the only way that it'll go!

The 'luff rope' through the cleat is a kind of cunningham. With a fixed gooseneck, you can take the line from the deck (or mast) to the sail (hook in a cringle) and back. If you do that wiith a sliding gooseneck, the sail will be tight to the cunningham, but your boom can slide down and wind up below the black band. The 'luff rope' to the boom keeps the boom up (as far as the downhaul will let it go) but still allows you to tighten the luff without having to worry about the boom dropping below the black band - and keeping you within the rules.

When you get your new main you will need to either rig the cunningham to the boom (not to the mast or deck) or put a pin or stop in the mast track at the black band to keep the boom from dropping down too far.

Were you and your dinner date doing stuff, or just 'messing about'? (No innuendo implied or intended.)

Froggie

[Hike, Bitches!]

froggie, I think that is one of Ajax's daughters..if I have my memory correct. At least she is hanging out on the boat with him, which as we all know is an issue with teenagers these days.

[Ajax]

Stickboy was right, the shackle was on backwards. It will go on both ways, but should be reversed from the way the photo shows. Yes, that's one of my twin daughters. They'll be 18 in a couple of weeks. (Amen)

[sculpin]

The R version is always cheaper. Often by half or more. There is a 37R with sale pending with the asking down to US$37,900.00 This price difference goes for both the 37R and the 34R. Partly because the R versions have usually been used hard. Mostly due to the more basic, stripped out interior making them less desirable as a cruiser.

As an example I'll attach two views of the main cabin and aft cabin, one from an 37/40 XL (the + is identical) and one from a 37R. You can guess which is which.

Mind you, if you are doing a long ocean passage you might be better off in an R with its open transom, pilot berths, sail bins in the forepeak, forward facing nav station, etc.

Not exactly fair to show the XL with all the gear stowed and the R with all the gear all over. It must be the racer in me, but I like the look of the R. I have a real soft spot for pilot berths...
But I didn't realize that R often went for that much less then XLs/+s...wow...that would seem to make well cared for R's good deals.

By definition an R would have been raced - so even well cared for it would show more wear compared to a XL. The other thing is that the boat as a racer is getting less attention - a newer design would fly an assym and thus require a lot less crew, maybe would be faster...
The 37R - 37XL were an interesting departure for C&C, where most of their boats are crossover boats. For example, mine was built as a racing boat but was easily modified for cruising - add a bow roller, heater, etc but no major interior woodworking required. Whereas the R was built as a stripped out racing machine - it would be kinda like converting a J-111 for cruising. You could do it but...

[froggie]

Stickboy was right, the shackle was on backwards. It will go on both ways, but should be reversed from the way the photo shows. Yes, that's one of my twin daughters. They'll be 18 in a couple of weeks. (Amen)

Well - It looked like that was the only way the shackle would go on, but I have been known to put things together creatively.

I figured that it was your daughter - I was just curious whether you guys had gone sailing or were working on the boat or had been just sitting in the cockpit dreaming contemplating the future.

My daughter is 19 - and is studying dance in California. Do I worry about her? Naah . . . not more that every half hour or so. But she is in a supervised environment, so I don't worry quite so hard. Now when she was in Nu Yaak? Yeah, then I worried.

[stickboy]

I don't know how you guys do it. I just can't fathom the lack of sleep if I had a daughter.

Nice table though Ajax

[mrgnstrn]

I like that your "date" was texting during your date.

kids these days.



-M

[PNW Matt B]

I don't know how you guys do it. I just can't fathom the lack of sleep if I had a daughter.

Nice table though Ajax

You can get used to anything, even hanging, if you only hang long enough...

[Ajax]

Hide-a-way chart table, courtesy of Stickboy:
It folds in half, and slides deep into the sail stowage area under the port cockpit. The P30 is wonderful, but it really had no working nav area. I like to have chart and GPS whenever I'm somewhere unfamiliar.

Attached Files

•  chart_table1.JPG   505.23K   18 downloads

[stickboy]

Hide-a-way chart table, courtesy of Stickboy:
It folds in half, and slides deep into the sail stowage area under the port cockpit. The P30 is wonderful, but it really had no working nav area. I like to have chart and GPS whenever I'm somewhere unfamiliar.

Hey! Lookin' good! It was just a prototype but it works fine.

[Ajax]

Ordered a Blue Sea 8027 today for $150:



I'll have two spare breaker spots by the time I'm done with it. They didn't make this form factor with meters so I'll install them separately. This setup would fit the best. It'll go next to the DC distro panel. The onboard battery charger that IB gave me will be mounted nearby, and the batteries are nearby. All the wire runs will be pretty short.

I also picked up a cheapy West Marine stereo & two speakers for $75.00. I never play the radio or CD's, I just play music through my Droid so I bought the simplest head with an aux input jack.

I'm looking at bilge hand pumps like the Urchin or Gusher. I'm unsure of how much capacity I should be aiming for. Not sure if I want to cut yet another hole in the boat or just mount one to a piece of wood.

[floating dutchman]

I keep seeing this "Reverse Polarity" breaker on you boards (You American folks). How is it wired?

[Ajax]

I keep seeing this "Reverse Polarity" breaker on you boards (You American folks). How is it wired?

It's just a chip on the back of the panel that detects incorrect polarity and lights up the red LED. If the dock power is wired up backwards, then you'll know not to use it. For my household wiring projects, I have a little detector that you plug into wall sockets. It has 3 lights- 2 yellow, one red. The red lights if the polarity is backwards and the other two are supposed to be lit if the outlet is wired correctly. If one of the yellow lights is out, then your ground or neutral are missing and the outlet is not safe.

Same principle, only built into the breaker of the Blue Sea panel.

[Innocent Bystander]

I keep seeing this "Reverse Polarity" breaker on you boards (You American folks). How is it wired?

FD,

US 110V has 3 wires - Hot @ 60 HZ, Common and Ground and most panels are fed single phase. With a single "hot" lead, many loads, such as light bulbs, use the bulb base for the common side and the singe center conductor as the power feed. It's possible non professionals to swap the leads on the power supply You'll still see 110V across the contacts but reverse polarity on a circuit can create a shock hazard. The breaker is a dual pole that switches both common and hot. A diode will light up the RP light if the dock power has switched leads, or reverse polarity.

I've never seen the light come on other than a bulb test so we have a warning light for what appears to be a very uncommon problem.

Edit. I see Ajax has already replied.

[floating dutchman]

Thanks guys. Here we don't install the Reverse polarity light and only switch the phase (hot).
Seeing what looked like a breaker (linked to the main) feeding this reverse polarity thing had me confused.
What is the norm for you guys is better and safer than what we have, but then all our sockets at the marina are on an RCD (earth leakage, sorry I forget what you guys call it) and they greatly reduce the chance of electric shock.
Also boats with AC shore power have to have an electrial warrant fitness issued by and electrial inspector every two years. No sticker No plugin (Yea, right )

Edit: Dam, I'd better get my spell cheaker working again.

[Ajax]

Dutch-

The panel I'm buying still isn't in compliance with the very latest ABYC standards, as they now require an RCD on the mains breaker on the boat, not just on the dock box breaker.

[floating dutchman]

Dutch-

The panel I'm buying still isn't in compliance with the very latest ABYC standards, as they now require an RCD on the mains breaker on the boat, not just on the dock box breaker.

The rules are getting a bit silly. A lot of RCD breakers trip when they are disconected from the power source, The PDL (brand) cord type does. Now if you test you RCD and the one at the dock trips first and the one on your boat trips because the power went out how can you tell if the RCD on the boat works as an RCD? You can't but you still have to test it.

[savoir]

Ordered a Blue Sea 8027 today for $150:



I'll have two spare breaker spots by the time I'm done with it. They didn't make this form factor with meters so I'll install them separately. This setup would fit the best. It'll go next to the DC distro panel. The onboard battery charger that IB gave me will be mounted nearby, and the batteries are nearby. All the wire runs will be pretty short.

I also picked up a cheapy West Marine stereo & two speakers for $75.00. I never play the radio or CD's, I just play music through my Droid so I bought the simplest head with an aux input jack.

I'm looking at bilge hand pumps like the Urchin or Gusher. I'm unsure of how much capacity I should be aiming for. Not sure if I want to cut yet another hole in the boat or just mount one to a piece of wood.

You're getting an air conditioner, a fridge and a TV ? Kewl !

[Ishmael]

Ordered a Blue Sea 8027 today for $150:



I'll have two spare breaker spots by the time I'm done with it. They didn't make this form factor with meters so I'll install them separately. This setup would fit the best. It'll go next to the DC distro panel. The onboard battery charger that IB gave me will be mounted nearby, and the batteries are nearby. All the wire runs will be pretty short.

I also picked up a cheapy West Marine stereo & two speakers for $75.00. I never play the radio or CD's, I just play music through my Droid so I bought the simplest head with an aux input jack.

I'm looking at bilge hand pumps like the Urchin or Gusher. I'm unsure of how much capacity I should be aiming for. Not sure if I want to cut yet another hole in the boat or just mount one to a piece of wood.

You're getting an air conditioner, a fridge and a TV ? Kewl !

The blanks are for the hot tub, the ice maker, and the dishwasher.

[Ajax]

Ordered a Blue Sea 8027 today for $150:



I'll have two spare breaker spots by the time I'm done with it. They didn't make this form factor with meters so I'll install them separately. This setup would fit the best. It'll go next to the DC distro panel. The onboard battery charger that IB gave me will be mounted nearby, and the batteries are nearby. All the wire runs will be pretty short.

I also picked up a cheapy West Marine stereo & two speakers for $75.00. I never play the radio or CD's, I just play music through my Droid so I bought the simplest head with an aux input jack.

I'm looking at bilge hand pumps like the Urchin or Gusher. I'm unsure of how much capacity I should be aiming for. Not sure if I want to cut yet another hole in the boat or just mount one to a piece of wood.

You're getting an air conditioner, a fridge and a TV ? Kewl !

No, no, this is just a generic photo that they slapped labels on as an example of how you could set up the panel. My breakers will be for:

Stripper pole
Disco ball
EMP Cannon (for disabling stinkpotter ignition systems)

And yes, the three blanks will be for the hot tub, ice maker and dishwasher.

[Salazar]

My breakers will be for:

Stripper pole
Disco ball
EMP Cannon (for disabling stinkpotter ignition systems)

And yes, the three blanks will be for the hot tub, ice maker and dishwasher.

You're going to apply 110 v. AC to the Stripper Pole? I want to see that dance...

[savoir]

Sounds shocking.

[Innocent Bystander]

It'll be an electrifying performance.

[mrgnstrn]

The new method, stolen from Merit25:

Ajax,

first let me say that I love you like a brother.

second...you put that block on upside down.

The line is supposed to come into that block from the middle, where the flared sides are, and then exit from the side opposite the becket.

with the existing arangement, you risk the line slipping off the sheave to the left or right and jamming.

also, the load of the block is not being shared by the bolts very effectively. most of the load is taken by the bottom bolts.
if you flip the block, both sets (all 4) will share the load better.

-M

[Ajax]

The new method, stolen from Merit25:

Ajax,

first let me say that I love you like a brother.

second...you put that block on upside down.

The line is supposed to come into that block from the middle, where the flared sides are, and then exit from the side opposite the becket.

with the existing arangement, you risk the line slipping off the sheave to the left or right and jamming.

also, the load of the block is not being shared by the bolts very effectively. most of the load is taken by the bottom bolts.
if you flip the block, both sets (all 4) will share the load better.

-M

You know, I flipped those damn things each way for about 30 minutes, unable to discern a load advantage before finally mounting them in that position. There is a becket or something in the blocks that when mounted in the other position, interferes with free running of the line, so I mounted them in that position.

[Catalina 36]

The new method, stolen from Merit25:

Ajax,

first let me say that I love you like a brother.

second...you put that block on upside down.

The line is supposed to come into that block from the middle, where the flared sides are, and then exit from the side opposite the becket.

with the existing arangement, you risk the line slipping off the sheave to the left or right and jamming.

also, the load of the block is not being shared by the bolts very effectively. most of the load is taken by the bottom bolts.
if you flip the block, both sets (all 4) will share the load better.

-M

You know, I flipped those damn things each way for about 30 minutes, unable to discern a load advantage before finally mounting them in that position. There is a becket or something in the blocks that when mounted in the other position, interferes with free running of the line, so I mounted them in that position.

It looks like it works for the purpose and so long as the load is within safe limits even if not optimally shared so what.

Someone once told me "If its stupid, but it works, then its not stupid." The saying is now one of my lifes credo's.

[PNW Matt B]

You know, I flipped those damn things each way for about 30 minutes, unable to discern a load advantage before finally mounting them in that position. There is a becket or something in the blocks that when mounted in the other position, interferes with free running of the line, so I mounted them in that position.

That becket isn't interfering - it's controlling. It changes the lead angle so the line is far less likely to slip off the sheave. It does add more friction but far less than the advantage added by the block.

Now, as installed, it may not matter too much - that's a light-load application and with the fairlead into the cam cleat it probably can't go off the sheave anyway. But the one time it'll slip (and then jam) is that situation where it's under high load and you need it to move now. It shouldn't be difficult to flip the blocks unless the nuts on the back side are impossible to get to.

[Ajax]

I installed it both ways at the dock. When I pulled the traveler line, the friction was noticable, and with no load. That's why I installed it that way. I have canted the blocks at the necessary angle so that the line runs as fairly as possible. I've tested the setup with a full main (because my main doesn't reef) in 25kt breezes. It doesn't hop the sheave, or jam.

The back nuts aren't convenient, but I can flip them and give it a try. The line is too short though, gotta fix that.

[mrgnstrn]

You know, I flipped those damn things each way for about 30 minutes, unable to discern a load advantage before finally mounting them in that position. There is a becket or something in the blocks that when mounted in the other position, interferes with free running of the line, so I mounted them in that position.

That becket isn't interfering - it's controlling. It changes the lead angle so the line is far less likely to slip off the sheave. It does add more friction but far less than the advantage added by the block.

Now, as installed, it may not matter too much - that's a light-load application and with the fairlead into the cam cleat it probably can't go off the sheave anyway. But the one time it'll slip (and then jam) is that situation where it's under high load and you need it to move now. It shouldn't be difficult to flip the blocks unless the nuts on the back side are impossible to get to.

The side with the becket isn't going to slip off.....
I was worried about the other side of the block, where the line comes from the traveler (the horizontal "entrance")

Ajax...I cannot imagine why one way would have more friction than the other. I would think that the becket *adds* friction, but it's hard to tell from this angle of the picture.

-M

[Salazar]

I installed it both ways at the dock. When I pulled the traveler line, the friction was noticable, and with no load. That's why I installed it that way. I have canted the blocks at the necessary angle so that the line runs as fairly as possible. I've tested the setup with a full main (because my main doesn't reef) in 25kt breezes. It doesn't hop the sheave, or jam.

The back nuts aren't convenient, but I can flip them and give it a try. The line is too short though, gotta fix that.

Ok, I'm missing something here. I don't understand how the becket has any affect (effect?) on the line. The block should be oriented the other way, the line should enter the block between the becket and the sheave in the area with flared sides, exiting on the side opposite the sheave. Unless the line is very loose and floppy it shouldn't come near the becket?

On another note, do you have one continuous line now or do you have one line for each side?

I'd recommend going with one continuous line so you can flip the leeward one out of the cam cleat from the windward side when you need to pull the traveller up. You won't need quite as much line that way either as the slack from the windward side is taken up by the leeward side as the traveller comes over. Less spaghetti on the sole. (I think someone else said this a few posts ago but it's worth repeating?)

[Ajax]

I installed it both ways at the dock. When I pulled the traveler line, the friction was noticable, and with no load. That's why I installed it that way. I have canted the blocks at the necessary angle so that the line runs as fairly as possible. I've tested the setup with a full main (because my main doesn't reef) in 25kt breezes. It doesn't hop the sheave, or jam.

The back nuts aren't convenient, but I can flip them and give it a try. The line is too short though, gotta fix that.

Ok, I'm missing something here. I don't understand how the becket has any affect (effect?) on the line. The block should be oriented the other way, the line should enter the block between the becket and the sheave in the area with flared sides, exiting on the side opposite the sheave. Unless the line is very loose and floppy it shouldn't come near the becket?

On another note, do you have one continuous line now or do you have one line for each side?

I'd recommend going with one continuous line so you can flip the leeward one out of the cam cleat from the windward side when you need to pull the traveller up. You won't need quite as much line that way either as the slack from the windward side is taken up by the leeward side as the traveller comes over. Less spaghetti on the sole. (I think someone else said this a few posts ago but it's worth repeating?)

I'm interested in doing one continuous line, but I'm unsure of how to do that. I'll have to take a picture of the car so that you can see what I'm dealing with.

[Salazar]

I'm interested in doing one continuous line, but I'm unsure of how to do that. I'll have to take a picture of the car so that you can see what I'm dealing with.

I'm not great at explaining things but here goes... You have two lines now. Without changing anything in your present setup, tie the ends loose ends together. You now have a continuous line (except there in now a big knot in the middle). Try it that way next time you go out and see if you like it like that. I think you will.

[Ajax]

I'm interested in doing one continuous line, but I'm unsure of how to do that. I'll have to take a picture of the car so that you can see what I'm dealing with.

I'm not great at explaining things but here goes... You have two lines now. Without changing anything in your present setup, tie the ends loose ends together. You now have a continuous line (except there in now a big knot in the middle). Try it that way next time you go out and see if you like it like that. I think you will.

Ok, it sounds like a good idea, but my lines are too short to try it. They're too short now, as separate lines. I'll get a longer line and try it.

[stickboy]

I like my continuous line but leave some slack, mine's too short.

[Kaptainkriz]

I hated my continuous line and cut it apart. Every main trimmer that sails with us says wtf and ties it back together. At least use long enough lines to tie.

[Ishmael]

I installed it both ways at the dock. When I pulled the traveler line, the friction was noticable, and with no load. That's why I installed it that way. I have canted the blocks at the necessary angle so that the line runs as fairly as possible. I've tested the setup with a full main (because my main doesn't reef) in 25kt breezes. It doesn't hop the sheave, or jam.

The back nuts aren't convenient, but I can flip them and give it a try. The line is too short though, gotta fix that.

You don't have to run the line under the becket when the block is mounted the other way, it should just go straight into the sheave. I think this is what you're saying.

[Merit 25]

I hated my continuous line and cut it apart. Every main trimmer that sails with us says wtf and ties it back together. At least use long enough lines to tie.

lol, those timmers, so demanding! I do the continuous setup, and like it. I think getting the line the right length for the trimmer is really important. Otherwise, it's a real PITA if it's too long or short.

[floating dutchman]

I'm interested in doing one continuous line, but I'm unsure of how to do that. I'll have to take a picture of the car so that you can see what I'm dealing with.

I'm not great at explaining things but here goes... You have two lines now. Without changing anything in your present setup, tie the ends loose ends together. You now have a continuous line (except there in now a big knot in the middle). Try it that way next time you go out and see if you like it like that. I think you will.

Ok, it sounds like a good idea, but my lines are too short to try it. They're too short now, as separate lines. I'll get a longer line and try it.

Just ust a bit of lighter line and two knots for a try, the main reason for the continuous line is so you can uncleat the the cleat when you are on the wrong side of the boat.

[Ajax]

I installed it both ways at the dock. When I pulled the traveler line, the friction was noticable, and with no load. That's why I installed it that way. I have canted the blocks at the necessary angle so that the line runs as fairly as possible. I've tested the setup with a full main (because my main doesn't reef) in 25kt breezes. It doesn't hop the sheave, or jam.

The back nuts aren't convenient, but I can flip them and give it a try. The line is too short though, gotta fix that.

You don't have to run the line under the becket when the block is mounted the other way, it should just go straight into the sheave. I think this is what you're saying.

Yes, exactly. Thanks Ish, I'll try it. I'll pick up some new line after work and see what I can whip up.

Yesterday, I mounted a stereo (still have to wire it up), installed a remote-water pump grease gun kit, and installed an engine thermostat that HB lent me. This is the first time that the engine has had a thermostat in it since I've owned it. I powered her against the dock lines to make sure that I'd installed it properly and that the cooling system was working properly. The engine was running at around 100F, now it's up to about 130F. With new plugs and a thermostat the engine seems to have more grunt.

I managed to get most of my winter punch list completed. The new main should be ready for pickup sometime between March 23rd and March 30th. It looks to be an exciting season.

[EighthDeadlySin]

Ajax -- if that seat back isn't at right angles to the traveler, it looks like the becket will chafe the line. You may end up having to fill the holes and lower the block to get the line to run freely.

If anyone has been inspired by these stories, there's another Pearson 30 available cheaply in the Chesapeake. Owner passed away last year, but it had been cruised and raced actively. PM me for details. (I know, buy an ad.....)

[Ajax]

No, it's at right angles. No worries there. I've been quietly asking around for other P30 owners, trying to get some OD shit going this year.

[Kaptainkriz]

But if you flip it it looks like you'll need to drop it down lower (keep the lower holes and move the top ones under). I'd leave it alone.

No, it's at right angles. No worries there. I've been quietly asking around for other P30 owners, trying to get some OD shit going this year.

[Soñadora]

But if you flip it it looks like you'll need to drop it down lower (keep the lower holes and move the top ones under). I'd leave it alone.

No, it's at right angles. No worries there. I've been quietly asking around for other P30 owners, trying to get some OD shit going this year.

+1

Otherwise, you need to change hardware or get the sheave/cleat mounted on the rail.





If you stick with what you have, you should standoff the cleat somehow.

[benedito]

Hello Ajax,

Here is the existing condition of my P30's traveller. I was suprised to see how similar it is to your refit. I found that old P30 owner's manual online (Hull No. 996) with a parts catalogue that describes the traveler as: FG 584/610/50" NICRO. I quessed the 584 refers to the car model no. and the 610 refers to the track model no. for Nicro-Fico travellers. You can see the 610 track on RigRite.com but there is no 584 car, only the 585, 587 & 588 cars. The 588 looks similar to mine.

www.oocities.org/griglack/p30manual.html

http://www.rigrite.c...s/NF610.html#NF 610 Traveller Cars

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•  IMG-R_1739.JPG   827.67K   26 downloads

[benedito]

Also, check out this track on my mast. How does this improve things?

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•  IMG_1754R.JPG   848.25K   24 downloads

[Ishmael]

Also, check out this track on my mast. How does this improve things?

I'm sorry, there are no breasts in your pictures. Please go back to step one and read the instructions carefully. Thank you.

[Ajax]

Hello Ajax,

Here is the existing condition of my P30's traveller. I was suprised to see how similar it is to your refit. I found that old P30 owner's manual online (Hull No. 996) with a parts catalogue that describes the traveler as: FG 584/610/50" NICRO. I quessed the 584 refers to the car model no. and the 610 refers to the track model no. for Nicro-Fico travellers. You can see the 610 track on RigRite.com but there is no 584 car, only the 585, 587 & 588 cars. The 588 looks similar to mine.

www.oocities.org/griglack/p30manual.html

http://www.rigrite.c...s/NF610.html#NF 610 Traveller Car

Benny, you are a gentleman and a scholar! Excellent research. You look like you have the same track as I do, but your car is totally different. I'm not sure if my car was replaced, or Pearson just had variations of hardware during production. Either way, your info is valuable and useful, especially the owner's manual. Good job.

How's the work coming? Is it warm enough up there to get anything done?

[Ajax]

Ok gentlemen, it's time to tackle the shore power installation in earnest instead of just fantasizing about it.

My Blue Sea 8027 arrived yesterday. I am impressed with the quality. It included a nice template, so I can double-check my planned installation location without guesswork. The install instructions state that the run from the shore power inlet to the panel should not be more than 10 feet (without additional breakers or fuses). I'm pretty sure I can accomodate that. I know what the correct gauge of wire is for the run between the inlet and the breaker panel.

The galley outlets, micro-fridge outlet and battery charger are all going to be very close to the breaker panel so the runs will be short. These will all be 15amp breakers. What gauge of wire is the correct gauge?

The final outlet will be located in the head, or at the forward end of the main cabin. For the sake of argument, let's say that the run will be 25 feet after accomodating all the twists and turns it takes to hide the wire. What gauge is correct for a 15 amp outlet on a 25 foot run?

For simplicity, access and convenience, all panels, outlets, and wire runs will be located on the stbd side of the boat.

Anything critical that I'm missing?

[Ishmael]

Ok gentlemen, it's time to tackle the shore power installation in earnest instead of just fantasizing about it.

My Blue Sea 8027 arrived yesterday. I am impressed with the quality. It included a nice template, so I can double-check my planned installation location without guesswork. The install instructions state that the run from the shore power inlet to the panel should not be more than 10 feet (without additional breakers or fuses). I'm pretty sure I can accomodate that. I know what the correct gauge of wire is for the run between the inlet and the breaker panel.

The galley outlets, micro-fridge outlet and battery charger are all going to be very close to the breaker panel so the runs will be short. These will all be 15amp breakers. What gauge of wire is the correct gauge?

The final outlet will be located in the head, or at the forward end of the main cabin. For the sake of argument, let's say that the run will be 25 feet after accomodating all the twists and turns it takes to hide the wire. What gauge is correct for a 15 amp outlet on a 25 foot run?

For simplicity, access and convenience, all panels, outlets, and wire runs will be located on the stbd side of the boat.

Anything critical that I'm missing?

14 Ga wire should be fine for 110V, it's what your house is wired with.

[Innocent Bystander]

Ajax,

What input are you using? Most dock's are wired for 30 amps at 110V. I would use 14 ga from the panel to your loads and lean toward 12 ga from your inlet to the panel master.

Goes withour saying. Tinned, stranded wire. Not household solid core wire.

[Ajax]

Ajax,

What input are you using? Most dock's are wired for 30 amps at 110V. I would use 14 ga from the panel to your loads and lean toward 12 ga from your inlet to the panel master.

Goes withour saying. Tinned, stranded wire. Not household solid core wire.

30 amp input via your typical Marinco marine inlet plug with the big, screw-on cover. Blue Sea is recommending 10 ga from the Marinco plug to the panel, so that's what I'm using, especially if I'm pushing the 10 foot limit between the plug and the panel.

[Innocent Bystander]

Ajax,

What input are you using? Most dock's are wired for 30 amps at 110V. I would use 14 ga from the panel to your loads and lean toward 12 ga from your inlet to the panel master.

Goes withour saying. Tinned, stranded wire. Not household solid core wire.

30 amp input via your typical Marinco marine inlet plug with the big, screw-on cover. Blue Sea is recommending 10 ga from the Marinco plug to the panel, so that's what I'm using, especially if I'm pushing the 10 foot limit between the plug and the panel.

More than adequate. 50' shore power cords are 10 ga. They may be allowing for a 50' run from shore power source to the boat as part of their calculation. Never hurts to be a bit conservative with shore power wiring.

[sculpin]

Ok gentlemen, it's time to tackle the shore power installation in earnest instead of just fantasizing about it.

My Blue Sea 8027 arrived yesterday. I am impressed with the quality. It included a nice template, so I can double-check my planned installation location without guesswork. The install instructions state that the run from the shore power inlet to the panel should not be more than 10 feet (without additional breakers or fuses). I'm pretty sure I can accomodate that. I know what the correct gauge of wire is for the run between the inlet and the breaker panel.

The galley outlets, micro-fridge outlet and battery charger are all going to be very close to the breaker panel so the runs will be short. These will all be 15amp breakers. What gauge of wire is the correct gauge?

The final outlet will be located in the head, or at the forward end of the main cabin. For the sake of argument, let's say that the run will be 25 feet after accomodating all the twists and turns it takes to hide the wire. What gauge is correct for a 15 amp outlet on a 25 foot run?

For simplicity, access and convenience, all panels, outlets, and wire runs will be located on the stbd side of the boat.

Anything critical that I'm missing?

14 awg marine wire.

You are missing one thing, the law of wiring that says "if you think it is 25 feet it is actually closer to 30...". I always run the longest run first before I start cutting any wire.

Have fun! Always nice to install something shiny.

[PNW Matt B]

I used 12 awg marine from the inlet to the panel, but my run in less than 2'. My circuit runs from the panel are 14 awg marine wire.

[Salazar]

10 ga from the Marinco plug to the panel, 14 ga from the panel to the outlets is fine for a much longer distance that 25' at 110 v. but I wouldn't go lighter than that (even if it was only 2').

Are you using GFI outlets for the first outlet on each run (the others downstream can be wired through the first one in each run)?

[PNW Matt B]

Well, if I'm going to replace it, now's the time... the rest of the electrical system is still spools of wire and a sketch.

There are three circuits total on the AC side of the system; the battery charger and two outlet circuits, both with only one outlet box, and both GFI. One in the galley and one in the main cabin forward (I am debating extending that run to a second outlet in the head, but my wife isn't particularly concerned and if she don't want it, I don't think I'll miss it.)

[Slick470]

per the national electric code, and using 60 degree insulation, #12 is only good for 25 amps. #10 is good for 30. With #10, you're just hitting the 3% voltage drop limit around 60 feet, so yeah the 10 foot Blue Seas is recommending assumes a fully loaded 30 amp circuit and a 50 foot shore power cord.

[benedito]

Also, check out this track on my mast. How does this improve things?

I'm sorry, there are no breasts in your pictures. Please go back to step one and read the instructions carefully. Thank you.

I humbly submit. But she look "awesome" with just a Gill Soft-Shell jacket on. We call it the "Majic Jacket".

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[benedito]

And, an adopted child that is well adjusted:

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•  Copy of IMG_1750.JPG   747.1K   28 downloads

[floating dutchman]

Ok gentlemen, it's time to tackle the shore power installation in earnest instead of just fantasizing about it.

My Blue Sea 8027 arrived yesterday. I am impressed with the quality. It included a nice template, so I can double-check my planned installation location without guesswork. The install instructions state that the run from the shore power inlet to the panel should not be more than 10 feet (without additional breakers or fuses). I'm pretty sure I can accomodate that. I know what the correct gauge of wire is for the run between the inlet and the breaker panel.

The galley outlets, micro-fridge outlet and battery charger are all going to be very close to the breaker panel so the runs will be short. These will all be 15amp breakers. What gauge of wire is the correct gauge?

The final outlet will be located in the head, or at the forward end of the main cabin. For the sake of argument, let's say that the run will be 25 feet after accomodating all the twists and turns it takes to hide the wire. What gauge is correct for a 15 amp outlet on a 25 foot run?

For simplicity, access and convenience, all panels, outlets, and wire runs will be located on the stbd side of the boat.

Anything critical that I'm missing?

http://www.generalcable.co.nz/newzealand/download_genCALC_help.aspx

Umm yea. I figgured after I found you the link (I'm sure you can put 110 in to the voltage colum) that you don't use mm2 for wire size.

The fact is that in a boat cable lenghts are that short you are only protecting against short ckt protection not volt drop.
15A can be protect a 1.5mm2 cable so just go up to the next size in you weird ass gauge system.

Edit, I googled the gauge system. 14 is the number you want.

[sculpin]

Ok gentlemen, it's time to tackle the shore power installation in earnest instead of just fantasizing about it.

My Blue Sea 8027 arrived yesterday. I am impressed with the quality. It included a nice template, so I can double-check my planned installation location without guesswork. The install instructions state that the run from the shore power inlet to the panel should not be more than 10 feet (without additional breakers or fuses). I'm pretty sure I can accomodate that. I know what the correct gauge of wire is for the run between the inlet and the breaker panel.

The galley outlets, micro-fridge outlet and battery charger are all going to be very close to the breaker panel so the runs will be short. These will all be 15amp breakers. What gauge of wire is the correct gauge?

The final outlet will be located in the head, or at the forward end of the main cabin. For the sake of argument, let's say that the run will be 25 feet after accomodating all the twists and turns it takes to hide the wire. What gauge is correct for a 15 amp outlet on a 25 foot run?

For simplicity, access and convenience, all panels, outlets, and wire runs will be located on the stbd side of the boat.

Anything critical that I'm missing?

http://www.generalca...nCALC_help.aspx

Umm yea. I figgured after I found you the link (I'm sure you can put 110 in to the voltage colum) that you don't use mm2 for wire size.

The fact is that in a boat cable lenghts are that short you are only protecting against short ckt protection not volt drop.
15A can be protect a 1.5mm2 cable so just go up to the next size in you weird ass gauge system.

Edit, I googled the gauge system. 14 is the number you want.

Yah, wire gauge is a funny way to measure it. Bigger is smaller, and when you get to zero you keep going - why does calling a wire size 0000 make sense?

[Ajax]

And, an adopted child that is well adjusted:

She looks great. Interesting two-tone covestripe. I see all the attachment points for a dodger. Do you still have it?

[Salazar]

Interesting choice in new Avatar Ajax. This have anything to do with your wiring project?

[Salazar]

Yah, wire gauge is a funny way to measure it. Bigger is smaller, and when you get to zero you keep going - why does calling a wire size 0000 make sense?

Yeah, and 0000 is pronounced "four aught". Odd (but logical I suppose).

[Slick470]

Yah, wire gauge is a funny way to measure it. Bigger is smaller, and when you get to zero you keep going - why does calling a wire size 0000 make sense?

Yeah, and 0000 is pronounced "four aught". Odd (but logical I suppose).

and usually written out as 4/0. It is confusing, but only gets more so the bigger you get, over 4/0 you get 250 kcmil or mcm. At least a that point the numbers get bigger.

[Ajax]

Interesting choice in new Avatar Ajax. This have anything to do with your wiring project?

Mostly because I struggle with everything twice as much as regular people do, even simple things. I'm the slow kid in class.

[Ajax]

Yesterday, I was graced by a visit from Bitches' & Co. Mobile Shipwrights, Inc.

The good news: Mr. Bitches, who is the Chesapeake Bay, Atomic-4 guru feels that my engine is in strong condition. All I have to do is keep it that way.

The not great news: He and No Patience performed the halyard reference check and my rigging is about 1" off at the top. It has a one inch cant to starboard. They figure that this is a 3-turn adjustment on the turnbuckles. Unfortunately, my turnbuckles appear to be really jammed up and adjustment wasn't possible even after days soaked in Kroil.

I could continue to clean, heat, and lubricate them in an attempt to free them up, but my main fear is that the standing rigging should just be replaced due to it's age. Nothing seems in imminent danger of failure, so I'm going to just sail the boat and accumulate parts and rigging until I have it all.

Stickboy has graciously already given me a lower and an upper shroud to get started. I can use them as templates to make everything else.

[Innocent Bystander]

Ajax,

1" is not too bad. Shame about the turnbuckles. Patience may still win out.

At least you got some sailboat work in. I spent yesterday with C waxing the powerboat and getting it into the water so that C could discover some debris within 2 boat lengths of the ramp. The good news is I was thinking about a new prop anyway. The bad was that getting the boat back out, home, going to WM for a prop, installing it and getting the boat back in the water took the rest of the day. The new prop is a better match at least and the boat is faster now. We have a ride to go see Matt when he gets up this way at least.

Today, L says "mulch the beds" so it's yard work day. First mowing and all.

At least with DST, I can get the battery bank wired up Monday afternoon and the yard tells me the blasting will be finished tomorrow so I can do some fairing and get bottom paint installed. Raymarine will ship the repaired AP computer and instruments by the end of the week and the yard should have the inverter installed by teh first week in April. Probably 3-4 weeks still before I launch but I can see progress. I keep telling myself that if this was a normal winter, I wouldn't be feeling pressure to get back in the water already.

[Ishmael]

Yesterday, I was graced by a visit from Bitches' & Co. Mobile Shipwrights, Inc.

The good news: Mr. Bitches, who is the Chesapeake Bay, Atomic-4 guru feels that my engine is in strong condition. All I have to do is keep it that way.

The not great news: He and No Patience performed the halyard reference check and my rigging is about 1" off at the top. It has a one inch cant to starboard. They figure that this is a 3-turn adjustment on the turnbuckles. Unfortunately, my turnbuckles appear to be really jammed up and adjustment wasn't possible even after days soaked in Kroil.

I could continue to clean, heat, and lubricate them in an attempt to free them up, but my main fear is that the standing rigging should just be replaced due to it's age. Nothing seems in imminent danger of failure, so I'm going to just sail the boat and accumulate parts and rigging until I have it all.

Stickboy has graciously already given me a lower and an upper shroud to get started. I can use them as templates to make everything else.

For penetrant, try a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone. It's not only the best, it's the cheapest.

[Hike, Bitches!]

IB...they were jammed up pretty tight.. i am not expert on that stuff, but I was afraid to force them loose and then deal with them failing.

All the discussion about the rig being a little loose is valid, however, it is not excessively so. It is looser than I would sail with it if everything was in good working order, but since 5 of the 6 turnbuckles seem to be seized, there isn't much to do with it. I agree with Ajax's assessment..sail the boat, and save a few bucks for new standing rigging when $$ allows. 1" tipped to stbd at ~40' height is really not too bad.

Motor sounds good..I wish he had good gauge readings..oil pressure is AFU and I am not sure if the water temp isn't incorrect either. Needs the Indigo PCV kit to cut down on the blow-by when we gave her some throttle, which is the very first thing I did to my boat. Maybe slightly over propped, but that seems to be the norm with Atomic 4's...the boat has no tach, I was guessing we were hitting 1850-1900 RPM WOT tugging on the dock lines. I forgot to check the prop specs when the boat was out of water during the last visit of Bitches & Co. Mobile Shipwrights, Inc. Martec folder as I recall, so at least he's got a folding prop.

Bitches & Co. Mobile Shipwrights, Inc - That has a good ring to it..just wish I made enough progress on my own boat to be worthy of the name!

[Ajax]

Oye... nothing's ever simple.

Stickboy sent me 3 pieces- An upper, a lower, and a headstay, which is really nice. The wire sizes seem identical to what's on my boat now, except that they are terminated differently. Lemme see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense:

The upper ends of all these stays are terminated in hardware that matches my boat. (The part that attaches to the mast)
The lower ends at the deck, all terminate in empty turnbuckle barrels. Turnbuckles that are lighter and smaller than what I have on my boat. My own stays are all terminated in eyes, and all turnbuckles are jaw-to-jaw types like this:



The closest I could find a photo of the type of fitting on the 3 spare pieces I have is this. It's like an empty turnbuckle, with the top half swaged to the wire. Beats me how you'd adjust it once it's attached to the deck. You can't turn the buckle without twisting the stay. I must be missing something. My stays are 1/4 and 5/16th's inch it appears.

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•  611549.jpg   3.88K   1 downloads
•  jawjaw.jpg   5.42K   1 downloads

[stickboy]

Yea, sorry to be a tease, I figured your P30 would be the same as mine, the turnbuckles I have are a little unusual. I found a base, here's a pic for you. The wire has a female end swaged on it.

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•  turnbuckle.JPG   689.63K   3 downloads

[Ajax]

Yea, sorry to be a tease, I figured your P30 would be the same as mine, the turnbuckles I have are a little unusual. I found a base, here's a pic for you. The wire has a female end swaged on it.

Hum... I saw the male, threaded pieces for sale on Defender. I'll see if I can find the lower section.

[Innocent Bystander]

Oye... nothing's ever simple.

Stickboy sent me 3 pieces- An upper, a lower, and a headstay, which is really nice. The wire sizes seem identical to what's on my boat now, except that they are terminated differently. Lemme see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense:

The upper ends of all these stays are terminated in hardware that matches my boat. (The part that attaches to the mast)
The lower ends at the deck, all terminate in empty turnbuckle barrels. Turnbuckles that are lighter and smaller than what I have on my boat. My own stays are all terminated in eyes, and all turnbuckles are jaw-to-jaw types like this:



The closest I could find a photo of the type of fitting on the 3 spare pieces I have is this. It's like an empty turnbuckle, with the top half swaged to the wire. Beats me how you'd adjust it once it's attached to the deck. You can't turn the buckle without twisting the stay. I must be missing something. My stays are 1/4 and 5/16th's inch it appears.

Ajax,

Your turnbuckles are terminated in swedged eyes and not a threaded male fitting? If so, the answer is simple. Buy new turnbuckles or visit Bacon's and rummage through their rigging isle. I'm certain we can get the pins out of the frozen ones and then replacement is easy.

[kent_island_sailor]

I think I get 2200-2400 RPM at the dock with an Indigo.

IB...they were jammed up pretty tight.. i am not expert on that stuff, but I was afraid to force them loose and then deal with them failing.

All the discussion about the rig being a little loose is valid, however, it is not excessively so. It is looser than I would sail with it if everything was in good working order, but since 5 of the 6 turnbuckles seem to be seized, there isn't much to do with it. I agree with Ajax's assessment..sail the boat, and save a few bucks for new standing rigging when $$ allows. 1" tipped to stbd at ~40' height is really not too bad.

Motor sounds good..I wish he had good gauge readings..oil pressure is AFU and I am not sure if the water temp isn't incorrect either. Needs the Indigo PCV kit to cut down on the blow-by when we gave her some throttle, which is the very first thing I did to my boat. Maybe slightly over propped, but that seems to be the norm with Atomic 4's...the boat has no tach, I was guessing we were hitting 1850-1900 RPM WOT tugging on the dock lines. I forgot to check the prop specs when the boat was out of water during the last visit of Bitches & Co. Mobile Shipwrights, Inc. Martec folder as I recall, so at least he's got a folding prop.

Bitches & Co. Mobile Shipwrights, Inc - That has a good ring to it..just wish I made enough progress on my own boat to be worthy of the name!