46 replies to this topic

[ColinG]

Just wondering what has happened with the Classe 950. Seemed like a good size for short handed racing, but appears to never have got traction.

[pogen]

I ponder this as well. Seemed like a great point in between Minis and Classe 40s in size, cost, etc.

Of course, I did not plump for one, but bought a 25 yr old 6KSB a few years ago myself. So I guess I am part of the problem.

The euro guys have the Figaro II already.

[GybeSet®]

i reckon thats it

all the fledling 9.50 fleet are virt. in the same part of the globe that the Figaro shorthander thrives

was there ever a nice one that didn't look like a d dix kit ?

[Icedtea]

You could ask the same question about the open 30, I thought they were pretty damn cool...

And the Open 40 and 50

[Abilyn Racing]

You could ask the same question about the open 30, I thought they were pretty damn cool...

And the Open 40 and 50

Dibley Marine in New Zealand is still pushing it. And of course there's the Akilaria.

[pogen]

My understanding is that the Classe 950 had rules on materials, canting keel, etc. to keep cost down relative to the Open 30.

[SloopJohnB]

There's something happening downhere.
http://www.crew.org....php?f=6&t=13907

[dde]

My understanding is that the Classe 950 had rules on materials, canting keel, etc. to keep cost down relative to the Open 30.

Class 950 is essentially a scaled-down version of the Class 40. From the standpoint of someone who's been considering Class 650 for a long time and has spent a long time tweaking an already strict class-regulated design for the 6.5m, Class 30 is a lot better avenue than Class 950. Go the the Akilaria site and compare their Class 40 and their 950. There really isn't that much of a difference between the two, except for 8' LOA. What I like about Class 30 vs. 950 vs. Class 40 vs. 6.5m is that Class 30 is the mid-range that a sailor would look for if they don't have the budget for a Class 40, but what a step up from the 650.

It's like comparing a Ford S-10 to a F-150 to a F-350 Super Duty. Each has the same purpose, essentially, but the bigger you get, the more it costs, and most people aim for the mid-range. Why Class 30 hasn't taken off kind of surprises me, especially for solo racing.

[GybeSet®]

so what has the racing? where ?

O30 or Classe9.50

[Icedtea]

so what has the racing? where ?

O30 or Classe9.50

Very little anywhere I think, but looking at the Akilaria site I really like the look of the Class 950

[Dibley]

We have been pushing the Classe 950 for a little while now. Yes, it has been frustrating with having so much interest coming in, but not enough people taking the big step.
For shorthanded racing, with enough interior inside to cater for weekend cruising, it really does it all.
No canting keel allowed. Material restictions to keep costs down, and waterballast for the short handed aspect.
VPP's are outstanding, and with the ibcreased interest in short-handed sailing of late, it is perfect for that slot before the 40 footers...
We have a builder in NZ on standby, and a builder in China.
We also have enough plans for any one interested in the homebuild option, though some experienace will be required using Epoxies etc....
http://www.dibleymar.../dibley950.html

Attached Files

•  Dibley Classe 950.JPG   800.38K   146 downloads

[dde]

Dibley, do you have any strictly sailing plans of that, aka minimal, essential-only interior?

[GybeSet®]

pics !

[ctutmark]

My understanding is that the Classe 950 had rules on materials, canting keel, etc. to keep cost down relative to the Open 30.

Class 950 is essentially a scaled-down version of the Class 40. From the standpoint of someone who's been considering Class 650 for a long time and has spent a long time tweaking an already strict class-regulated design for the 6.5m, Class 30 is a lot better avenue than Class 950. Go the the Akilaria site and compare their Class 40 and their 950. There really isn't that much of a difference between the two, except for 8' LOA. What I like about Class 30 vs. 950 vs. Class 40 vs. 6.5m is that Class 30 is the mid-range that a sailor would look for if they don't have the budget for a Class 40, but what a step up from the 650.

It's like comparing a Ford S-10 to a F-150 to a F-350 Super Duty. Each has the same purpose, essentially, but the bigger you get, the more it costs, and most people aim for the mid-range. Why Class 30 hasn't taken off kind of surprises me, especially for solo racing.

What's a Class 30?

[Dibley]

Dibley, do you have any strictly sailing plans of that, aka minimal, essential-only interior?

Absolutely. To be a Classe 950 you have to have a minimal amount of interior and headroom, but we can customise and simplify to suit the client if they are not looking at being a Classe yacht as such. That is the neat thing about this design rule; they are as great outside of Class racing as they are in...

[pogen]

I don't think there is such a thing as a Class 30.

The "Open" boats are (or were) all blessed by IMOCA.

There was an Open 30, canting keels and carbon hulls allowed, only ever popular in South America.
See one for sale here: http://www.yachtbrokers.co.za/open-30/
Here is a nice one: http://www.vgyd.com/Open30.html

I think Class(e) 950 has glass hulls and no canting.

There was an Open 40, such as sailed by the great mariner Abby Sunderland. More info on that class on a SA thread here.

Of course, IMOCA had current rules for Open 50s as recently as 2004, and the Open 60 is still going strong.

There was also a "Mt. Gay 30" of which some few were built, but they were not a big success, felt to be too slow and heavy compared to similar length boats in AUS.

[ctutmark]

My point exactly. From dde's post it seems they are confusing/mixing up what an Open 30 was, with a Class 9.50 and adding a dash of Mt. Gay 30 too for a bit of spice. A Class 9.50 is closest to a scaled down class 40. An Open 30 was an attempt at a smaller IMOCA type boat and the Mount Gay 30 was an attempt as a Volvo 60 scaled down. All very different

I don't think there is such a thing as a Class 30.



The "Open" boats are (or were) all blessed by IMOCA.

There was an Open 30, canting keels and carbon hulls allowed, only ever popular in South America.
See one for sale here: http://www.yachtbrokers.co.za/open-30/
Here is a nice one: http://www.vgyd.com/Open30.html

I think Class(e) 950 has glass hulls and no canting.

There was an Open 40, such as sailed by the great mariner Abby Sunderland. More info on that class on a SA thread here.

Of course, IMOCA had current rules for Open 50s as recently as 2004, and the Open 60 is still going strong.

There was also a "Mt. Gay 30" of which some few were built, but they were not a big success, felt to be too slow and heavy compared to similar length boats in AUS.

[SloopJohnB]

The class website:

http://www.classe950....php?rubrique24

The class blog:

http://www.classe950.blogspot.com/

[Dibley]

You can be an Open 'style' design, where as you have watertight bulkheads, canting keel and follows fairly closely the IMOCA requirements. We did a 26-footer like that. But I don't believe there is an 'official' Open 30, nor a Class 30.
The idea with the Classe 950 was to slot between the Open 650's and the Open or Class 40's. It is quite a leap financially to grow that extra 9-feet.............

[dolphinmaster]

We have been pushing the Classe 950 for a little while now. Yes, it has been frustrating with having so much interest coming in, but not enough people taking the big step.
For shorthanded racing, with enough interior inside to cater for weekend cruising, it really does it all.
No canting keel allowed. Material restictions to keep costs down, and waterballast for the short handed aspect.
VPP's are outstanding, and with the ibcreased interest in short-handed sailing of late, it is perfect for that slot before the 40 footers...
We have a builder in NZ on standby, and a builder in China.
We also have enough plans for any one interested in the homebuild option, though some experienace will be required using Epoxies etc....
http://www.dibleymarine.com/sail/sail/dibley950.html

Looks like you have skeg on that rudder. True?

[Dibley]

We have been pushing the Classe 950 for a little while now. Yes, it has been frustrating with having so much interest coming in, but not enough people taking the big step.
For shorthanded racing, with enough interior inside to cater for weekend cruising, it really does it all.
No canting keel allowed. Material restictions to keep costs down, and waterballast for the short handed aspect.
VPP's are outstanding, and with the ibcreased interest in short-handed sailing of late, it is perfect for that slot before the 40 footers...
We have a builder in NZ on standby, and a builder in China.
We also have enough plans for any one interested in the homebuild option, though some experienace will be required using Epoxies etc....
http://www.dibleymarine.com/sail/sail/dibley950.html

Looks like you have skeg on that rudder. True?

Nope. Twin Rudder - Balanced - Transom Mounted.

[dde]

I meant Open 30, just got to typing too fast/comparing to Class 950, writing Class 30, etc.

Dibley has the right idea, and personally, I'm surprised that the boat hasn't taken off. From his mockups, the Class 950 has the capabilities of an ocean racing boat, but the luxury that the casual sailor who isn't doing tranat's or distance races wants. I grew up learning and sailing on a Tartan 34, which is cruising I know, but being on larger boats such as the Class 40 and even the Class 60, the 30' range is pretty perfect. You don't see it a lot because the smaller (6.5m) and larger (40&60) classes are more popular.

[Speng]

Reason is (IMHO) that unlike a Classe 40 the Classe 950 wasn't bringing anything to the table that wasn't/isn't out there in the production boat world. A J105, Sun Fast 3200 or something similar for the Corinthian punter or a Figaro for the really serious guy. Moreover in the Classe 40s early days there was interest out there from the builders (esp Pogo), designers (who hasn't designed one), and prospective owners - when you have a big name like Patrice Carpentier pushing them word gets around. The Classe 950 seemed to be a push from a limited number of builders and designers but not a lot of pull from the prospective client base.

Personally the Open30s were more interesting (and more designers got on them than the Classe 950) as the performance was more significantly different than what was out there at the time but I think except for a few South African and Argentinean examples none were built.

[Amati]

Well there is Van Gorkum's South African open 30 coolness....

P

But given the wild stampede for Amati ( look in the classifieds) which was damn close to an open 40 1999 vintage, the lack of action outside of vicarious thrills doesn't surprise me.

[Jambalaya]

Speng has already said most of this already ..

The Classe 950 has a lot of competition at that size point and all of it is a lot cheaper. A few examples Sunfast 3200, JPK 960 and 1010, Archie 35, J105. Any of these boats go really well in the popular European short handed races and cost way less money. The Class 950 rates horribly and to date there are no class events to speak of. There are established classes at 6.50m, 40ft and indeed at 30 something with the Figaro 2's - no real room for the 950 unfortunately.

[Dibley]

I agree, the Classe 950 isn't for everyone..........

Attached Files

•  SunFast 3200 VPP.jpg   124.06K   291 downloads
•  Dibley Classe 950 VPP.jpg   127.77K   309 downloads

[Jari]

I think I'm in love

[Icedtea]

With the class 950? Really?

[trenace]

I haven't seen evidence that the first of these has actually been built yet, but it looks promising:

http://www.mareehaut...id=37&Itemid=55

Attached Files

•  d950carac.jpg   255.74K   60 downloads

[LeoV]

Youre a promotor of Haute Maree

Some italian blokes did build one, an are sailing it:
http://www.absolutewind.com/

[ColinG]

Givne that there are some sailing, does anyone have any real world experience as to how these boats sail against some of the other 30ish footers out there, such as the Mumm 30, sunfast 300, Grand surprise,, Melges 32, etc? Intrigued to see whether these fat "dish" boats are really that fast at this LOA..

[Dibley]

Givne that there are some sailing, does anyone have any real world experience as to how these boats sail against some of the other 30ish footers out there, such as the Mumm 30, sunfast 300, Grand surprise,, Melges 32, etc? Intrigued to see whether these fat "dish" boats are really that fast at this LOA..

Hi ColinG
At the top of this page are the VPP's for the Sunfast300 compared to our Classe 950.
Can't really comment on the others, except the Displaement/Length & Sail Area/Displacement Ratios are right out the window on the Classe 950 when you go to the max of the rule, so shouldn't be a problem.... AND thay are Offshore Capable, as opposed to some on your list.
Best Regards
Kevin

[ColinG]

Kevin,
Seen the VPPs. No disrespect, but experience tells me that Polars and real life performance can vary significantly. Was looking for some real life experience if it exists

[Dibley]

Kevin,
Seen the VPPs. No disrespect, but experience tells me that Polars and real life performance can vary significantly. Was looking for some real life experience if it exists

Understood. Can't speak for the other Classe 950's out there as each one will be different. Our VPP's our based on quite acurate modeling and we have found that they represent the actuals very closely in yachts above 21'. The Sunfast VPP's were from their website, so not sure there.
Hope someone can pitch in with thoughts / experience.

Kevin,
Seen the VPPs. No disrespect, but experience tells me that Polars and real life performance can vary significantly. Was looking for some real life experience if it exists

Understood. Can't speak for the other Classe 950's out there as each one will be different. Our VPP's our based on quite acurate modeling and we have found that they represent the actuals very closely in yachts above 21'. The Sunfast VPP's were from their website, so not sure there.
Hope someone can pitch in with thoughts / experience.

[Jambalaya]

Givne that there are some sailing, does anyone have any real world experience as to how these boats sail against some of the other 30ish footers out there, such as the Mumm 30, sunfast 300, Grand surprise,, Melges 32, etc? Intrigued to see whether these fat "dish" boats are really that fast at this LOA..

You are trying to compare apples with oranges here, or to develop that analogy apples with steak.

The Class 950 is designed as a short handed ocean racing boat. That's the target market for the SunFast. Anyone who took a Melges 32 into the ocean should be declared insane, the class doesn't race in over 25 knots, it's an inshore raceboat. For what it's worth the M32 is much the fastest boat you list here. Ditto Mumm 30. If you comare the sail area and weight of the Mumm or Melges to the others you'll see they are much faster but those boats aren't ocean racers nor are they suitable for short handed racing.

I've raced against the SunnFast 3200 quite a bit in the J105, they are very good at their job and sail well against their IRC rating. They are attractively priced, £100k new on the water, have good accommodation and a smart layout for short handed racing wrt deck gear. They have won lots of short handed events inc round Britain and Ireland the TransQuadra transatlantic race. I did consider buying one but they are pretty dull outright performance wise.

I believe the polars for the Class 950, they look reasonable given the boat's design and sailplan. I've attended a few presentations from designers and I looked over a boat in France (Akilaria I think) but it didn't make sense to buy one. What events would I race it in ? As I noted before the bulk of the 2-handed events in UK and France are run under IRC and there are insufficient Class 950's sailing to justify class events. I have never raced against one despite doing lots of 2-handed events in the UK and France (ie where are the boats?). A new Class 950 would be close to an old Class 40 price wise, I do appreciate running costs would be far higher but it shows how tough it is to develop a box rule fleet at this size. If you want class racing in offshore short handed you can go Mini racing or do some of the lower key Figaro-2 events.

[ColinG]

I know they are for different purposes, but the question was only about getting relative performance, to get a feel for where they sit in the overall scheme of things.

Also, it may seem unbelievable to those based in Europe but there are some parts of the world where there are no minis or figaros and where short handle racing is done in a variety of different craft, so apples vs oranges is a fair question.

[Jambalaya]

Understood Colin. In speed order I'd see it like this

Melges32
Mumm 30 / Classe 950
J105/J109/Archie 35
Grand Surprise
Sunfast

The interesting thing is that a Sunfast 3200 may well get round the track 2-handed faster than a Grand Surprise or indeed a Mumm 30.

All the 2-handed racing I do is in very mixed fleets of IRC boats - have a look at the following, especially the RORC and French stuff

RORC Offshore here
Transquadra hereand here
Duo Atlantiue here EDIT: Results here Class 1 and Class 2
Royal Southampton 2-Handed here

[GybeSet®]

so Colin pony up for a Bull 9000 and you'll have the best of all worlds including IRC

mumm speed and IRC

agree the fat dishes won't be as quick upwind or till developed in a competitive environment

[ColinG]

so Colin pony up for a Bull 9000 and you'll have the best of all worlds including IRC

If one came up at the right price, maybe I would.

[Fastrak]

I know this post died out some time back but you may be interested to know we have some Class 950's being built in the UK to a Simon Rogers design. The project has literally just started and 3 boats are on order at the moment. Here's the URL for the Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.../RogersClass950

[ColinG]

Good to see - keep posting updates here!

[Dibley]

We have just sold the plans for one of our Classe 950's to a UK client so looks like there is some traction in the Classe.
This version is having a lifting keel. Below is the fixed keel version which sold to an Italian home build.
http://www.dibleymar.../dibley950.html

[Fastrak]

Lifting keel!! That's novel. I really do believe this Class deserves a future and fills a growing niche. Maybe the time is better now for us to grow the interest out there. Hope to see your boat on the water sometime when they have built it.

[ColinG]

Well, northern hemisphere summer is in full swing now and I am wondering if there has yet been an event where the Classe 950s have faced off against each other? I have not as yet been able to find any results of any such racing, but that may be because I cannot read French?
Would be interesting to see how the various designs to date have fared, both against each other and also comparative to other boats.

[Presuming Ed]

https://www.facebook.../RogersClass950

 469379_388561294530991_1544247461_o.jpg   56.82K   8 downloads

[GybeSet®]

these designs were before their time

now that fucking ugly is now 'IN' ( ie first 30) its obvious they were pitched too early

[huey 2]

Well, northern hemisphere summer is in full swing now and I am wondering if there has yet been an event where the Classe 950s have faced off against each other? I have not as yet been able to find any results of any such racing, but that may be because I cannot read French?
Would be interesting to see how the various designs to date have fared, both against each other and also comparative to other boats.

colin the french magazine Bateaux did a comparison of three 950 s after la grand motte, a ply TIP TOP manuard,CINQ SENS; a mangen L'ATOMIUN ?{which is for sale} BLACKBIRD ; and a lombard AKILARA called JASON. it was around june 2010 . also the french site SEASAILSURF has a 950 page which covers six or seven designs that have been built. some light but engaging reviews cheers