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So is Redress supposed to work like this?


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#101 JohnMB

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 02:13 PM




Case 96, Case 111 and most of all Case 65.

Come on guys. There is no question her only option is to retire and seek redress.

Fuck, i haven't even got a casebook handy, but im pretty sure one of them says....you don't argue a bfd.

No, No and No.

Case 65 has to do with knowing you were OCS/BFD, continuing to race anyway for the specific reason of screwing another competitor.
Both 96 and 111 have to do with ZFPs and BFDs sticking after a general recall.

There has been no mention of a general recall in this instance.

Unless it's written in the sailing instructions that BFDs will be removed from the course, they have every right to continue sailing (unless it's a restart after a general recall or abandonment) and finish. 99% of the time, they won't even know they got a BFD until they see the scores posted.


Hobie,

Like i said, im on the move right now, and going from my head and memory.

JS posted the preamble to 96. Unleashed there is more in there, its pretty much a i remembered.

Maybe you can explain.

Thanks.

DW


Having had a quick look, Cases 96 and 111 both deal with with recalls/re-starts. They do not address the question whether a boat called OCS/BFD should retire from a race in progress.



CASE 65

When a boat knows that she has broken the Black Flag rule, she is obliged to retire promptly. When she does not do so and then deliberately hinders another boat in the race, she commits a gross breach of sportsmanship and of rule 2, and her helmsman commits a gross breach of sportsmanship.


I know the case overall discusses gross bad sportsmanship, but the first statement certainly indicates that a boat identified by the RC has being OCS under a black flag should retire, if they do not they risk a R2 case and DNE if they interfere in any way with any boat on the course. I dont know any good class where you can win a national competition without interfering with any boat on the course.

#102 Dog Watch

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 02:44 PM

CASE 65

When a boat knows that she has broken the Black Flag rule, she is obliged to retire promptly. When she does not do so and then deliberately hinders another boat in the race, she commits a gross breach of sportsmanship and of rule 2, and her helmsman commits a gross breach of sportsmanship.


I know the case overall discusses gross bad sportsmanship, but the first statement certainly indicates that a boat identified by the RC has being OCS under a black flag should retire, if they do not they risk a R2 case and DNE if they interfere in any way with any boat on the course. I dont know any good class where you can win a national competition without interfering with any boat on the course.


JB,

My earlier replies were without documents, I couldn't compete in the discussion. I guess, this is similar to what I was thinking. However....

The counter argument will be that the boat knew she was tagged under 30.3, but was adament she was not over.

This would not necessarily be a rule 2 issue if she refused to clear the course, and then fought her DSQ after the race. At most she would have a DSQ after having argued that she did not think she was over.

Or should she simply go on the RO's word and retire, and seek redress, and possibly gain a wost result than she believed she could get in the race, due to some redress decision.

Difficult.

DW

#103 I'moutahere

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:13 PM

Attached File  mrMR nats race 3.PNG   9.95K   51 downloads

From Yachts & Yachting website....

There is NO WAY that a boat (Davis) beaten in every race of a 6 race series by another boat (Carveth) should be able to beat that boat (Carveth) in the series.

Why the boat that received redress was given average points when they crossed the finish line (in first place) is impossible to justify. They HAVE to appeal that redress decision.


Attached File  MR results.PNG   24.27K   49 downloads

#104 The Advocate

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:23 PM

Nice find JS, makes it all the more bizarre.

#105 I'moutahere

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:39 PM

From the Merlin Rocket forums

Attached File  rrs 2 mr.PNG   18.2K   51 downloads
Attached File  MR FORUM.PNG   3.67K   43 downloads

#106 The Advocate

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:47 PM

Boat B did nothing wrong.

I am thinking that the only error made in this whole situation was the redress given.

#107 I'moutahere

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 09:08 PM

It would seem that Carveth was wrongly ID'd as OCS and given redress - not the position he finished in but average points.

Tried to find protest/redress info/facts found etc on Hayling Is SC & Merlin Rocket websites with no luck.

#108 l4k

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:57 AM

Race report is here - link - with a few more facts.

It appears that in the relevant race a. the boat wasn't pulled off the course following the BFD decision, b. the boat sailed the course and finished in 3rd place, c. the protest committee decided to award average points rather than points based on finish position (no indication as to why).

#109 Dog Watch

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:17 AM

With all that information it would seem obvious just to reinstate her position.

Makes me feel there's more to it than meets the eye.

Or the pc simply thought rrs A10 was a prescription.

DW

#110 ojfd

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:32 AM

Race report is here - link - with a few more facts.

It appears that in the relevant race a. the boat wasn't pulled off the course following the BFD decision, b. the boat sailed the course and finished in 3rd place, c. the protest committee decided to award average points rather than points based on finish position (no indication as to why).

Bingo!
Based on the facts.., err, no, reports so far it looks like improper action of RC (BFD) leading to improper action by the PC (incorrect redress given).
Anyone?

#111 Dog Watch

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:38 PM


Race report is here - link - with a few more facts.

It appears that in the relevant race a. the boat wasn't pulled off the course following the BFD decision, b. the boat sailed the course and finished in 3rd place, c. the protest committee decided to award average points rather than points based on finish position (no indication as to why).

Bingo!
Based on the facts.., err, no, reports so far it looks like improper action of RC (BFD) leading to improper action by the PC (incorrect redress given).
Anyone?


Yes and no.

I hear what you are saying, but be careful. The only requirement is that redress be 'the fairest to ALL boats'. One method of redress may seem totally obvious on the surface, but there may be underlaying reasons which we are not privy to.

There is no single 'redress' which is correct. And indeed, not having talked to the parties to the hearing (all the racers), we can't know what was actually 'fairest to ALL boats'.

To all of us, it seems odd that the RC did not simply 'reinstate' the boat with her finish position. Why didn't they? Either they made a mistake, or they had other reasons.

So before writing off the PC decision, I think we have to presume first, that they made a decision which was fairest to ALL boats for reasons we don't know yet.

Maybe:

-Other boats were also scored BFD, but retired. Thus making a multi boat redress.
-The score of 3rd was actually found to be incorrect. A problem with time keeping not related to the BFD.
-etc..etc..

If there is no good reason for not just reinstating the boat, then I agree, it would look like an improper action, since it is clearly 'fairer' to the redressed boat that she get her third place, and not the average.

Let's not jump to conclusions.

DW

#112 ojfd

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 01:51 PM



Race report is here - link - with a few more facts.

It appears that in the relevant race a. the boat wasn't pulled off the course following the BFD decision, b. the boat sailed the course and finished in 3rd place, c. the protest committee decided to award average points rather than points based on finish position (no indication as to why).

Bingo!
Based on the facts.., err, no, reports so far it looks like improper action of RC (BFD) leading to improper action by the PC (incorrect redress given).
Anyone?


Yes and no.

I hear what you are saying, but be careful.
<snip>


DW,

Please, be careful how you're interpreting my post :-)

By " incorrect redress given" I didn't say that Boat 1 should be reinstated in her finishing position. What I ment is , that there (apparently) was enough evidence to decide what redress, if any, should be granted to Boat 1 after Race 3. She didn't retired, she sailed the course and finished.

The outcome of Race No.3 for Boat 1 could have been:
1. She is reinstated in her finishing position.
2. She gets DNE for sailing after being black flagged in case requirements of RRS 62.1 are not fulfilled.
3. Any other average / best for all / whatever PC decides result, but only based on Races 1-3

I see no need to grant redress the way it was granted.

#113 ojfd

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:11 PM

Very interesting end of the story...
Quote from the Merlin Rocket forum:

The RYA appeal committee upheld the appeal to the extent that the award of Average Points was incorrect and that reinstatement of the place achieved in the race was the correct action. They also stated that they could not resolve this without the protest committe finding as a fact that 3652 was not OCS. The appeal was returned to the original protest committee chairman for him to support his own decision that 3652 should be awarded APs, by finding this fact.
The protest committee chairman refused to find this fact and so the original BFD was imposed.

http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
Does anyone know more details?

#114 Ryley

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:28 PM

A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS
If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

  • points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;
  • points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or
  • points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.


God, this whole fiasco could have been avoided if they'd used option 2 available in the Guidance. What a fustercluck.

#115 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:44 PM

Very interesting end of the story...
Quote from the Merlin Rocket forum:


The RYA appeal committee upheld the appeal to the extent that the award of Average Points was incorrect and that reinstatement of the place achieved in the race was the correct action. They also stated that they could not resolve this without the protest committe finding as a fact that 3652 was not OCS. The appeal was returned to the original protest committee chairman for him to support his own decision that 3652 should be awarded APs, by finding this fact.
The protest committee chairman refused to find this fact and so the original BFD was imposed.

http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
Does anyone know more details?


OK, hypothetically, is it possible for a boat, at a black flag start, to be OCS but not BFD?

#116 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

Very interesting end of the story...Quote from the Merlin Rocket forum:


The RYA appeal committee upheld the appeal to the extent that the award of Average Points was incorrect and that reinstatement of the place achieved in the race was the correct action. They also stated that they could not resolve this without the protest committe finding as a fact that 3652 was not OCS. The appeal was returned to the original protest committee chairman for him to support his own decision that 3652 should be awarded APs, by finding this fact.
The protest committee chairman refused to find this fact and so the original BFD was imposed.

http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
Does anyone know more details?


Odd, no relevant RYA Appeal here

http://www.rya.org.u...yacasebook.aspx

#117 FOOKINWAVE

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

did boat 1 and boat 2 lodge a valid protest for the infraction at the start ? step 1 here the protest Step 2 assign blame, score, through out and low score wins

#118 Gone Drinking

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:10 PM

Very interesting end of the story...
Quote from the Merlin Rocket forum:


The RYA appeal committee upheld the appeal to the extent that the award of Average Points was incorrect and that reinstatement of the place achieved in the race was the correct action. They also stated that they could not resolve this without the protest committe finding as a fact that 3652 was not OCS. The appeal was returned to the original protest committee chairman for him to support his own decision that 3652 should be awarded APs, by finding this fact.
The protest committee chairman refused to find this fact and so the original BFD was imposed.

http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
Does anyone know more details?


OK, hypothetically, is it possible for a boat, at a black flag start, to be OCS but not BFD?


No it is not possible to be OCS at a black flag start and not be scored BFD. However it is possible to not be OCS at the start and still be scored BFD. Black Flag goes into effect at the 1 minute mark.

#119 Presuming Ed

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:15 PM

Odd, no relevant RYA Appeal here

http://www.rya.org.u...yacasebook.aspx

What's odd? It's the 09-12 RYA casebook, and this incident was last summer, so it's not surprising that it isn't there. Plenty of cases referring to redress, but this situation is new (never heard of anything similar myself), so nothing similar in the book.

#120 JohnMB

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 03:48 PM

Very interesting end of the story...
Quote from the Merlin Rocket forum:


The RYA appeal committee upheld the appeal to the extent that the award of Average Points was incorrect and that reinstatement of the place achieved in the race was the correct action. They also stated that they could not resolve this without the protest committe finding as a fact that 3652 was not OCS. The appeal was returned to the original protest committee chairman for him to support his own decision that 3652 should be awarded APs, by finding this fact.
The protest committee chairman refused to find this fact and so the original BFD was imposed.

http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
Does anyone know more details?


OK, hypothetically, is it possible for a boat, at a black flag start, to be OCS but not BFD?


without the facts its hard to understand


here is what we know.... (from based on the limited evidence presented)
Fact 1. the boat was OCS at the start (according to the PC)
Fact 2. the boat was entitled to redress (according to the PC and the RYA appeals committee)

so according to the PC something in R62 applied: (possibly an omission by the RC?)


so from the original PC point of view... 1. the boat was OCS and therefore BFD, but was OCS due to one of the circumstances described in R62 and therefore entitled to redress for that fact that one of those factors caused them to be OCS. Being BFD worsened their score. :)

the PC chair is clearly adamant that the boat was OCS, (otherwise why not change the fact found as requested by the RYA)


the RYA may have concluded that the average points decision was incorrect, and that either the boat was not OCS and therefore entitled to their correct finish or was OCS and therefore only entitled to a BFD.

It will be interesting to read the final decision.

In principle its certainly possible for a boat to be pushed over the line by a boat breaking R2 during a black flag start. (imagine a boat deliberately ramming another from clear astern until they are over the line), in which case it would be entirely reasonable for that boat to get redress, and it would also be the correct to expect that boat to retire from the race course once she knew she was black flag DSQ'd.

#121 Brucito

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:10 PM

The PCs I have been on always try to give average points for the races already completed. Not to avoid this problem but so that everyone knows how many points everyone has going into the last race or last day.

#122 Mambo Kings

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:08 PM

Very interesting end of the story...
Quote from the Merlin Rocket forum:


The RYA appeal committee upheld the appeal to the extent that the award of Average Points was incorrect and that reinstatement of the place achieved in the race was the correct action. They also stated that they could not resolve this without the protest committe finding as a fact that 3652 was not OCS. The appeal was returned to the original protest committee chairman for him to support his own decision that 3652 should be awarded APs, by finding this fact.
The protest committee chairman refused to find this fact and so the original BFD was imposed.

http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
Does anyone know more details?



Unbelievable!
The PC cancels BFD . This means they have to believe on the evidence presented to them that boat was not OCS.
Then later, when asked to state this as a finding of fact, the PC chair declines to do so.

RYA is very competent and knows that a Finding of Fact cannot be appealed so there must have been something really wrong with the way the hearing and redress was written up.

Interesting case. Opens the door for appeals cttee to refer questionable finding of fact back to the PC.



I note that Carveth/Williamson sportingly ask the class to congratulate the winners and move on.

Time to move on, and confirm Taxi and Tom as Champs with
congratulations.

GGGGG


That earns respect in my book and perhaps we should respect their wishes..

#123 JohnMB

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:21 PM

Unbelievable!
The PC cancels BFD . This means they have to believe on the evidence presented to them that boat was not OCS.
Then later, when asked to state this as a finding of fact, the PC chair declines to do so.


i dont think this is necessarily true

the PC can give redress for a BFD that occurred due to an error by the RC for example....

For example, if the Prep flag was dropped (and the sound signal made) 2-3 seconds early, and the start was on time, then a boat could be OCS having reset their timer at 1 minute and then hit the line at speed based on the wrong timing. she would still be OCS and therefore BFD, BUT would also be entitled to redress since she was over early due to the RC's incorrect timing at the 1 minute gun.

#124 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:26 PM



Unbelievable!
The PC cancels BFD . This means they have to believe on the evidence presented to them that boat was not OCS.
Then later, when asked to state this as a finding of fact, the PC chair declines to do so.


i dont think this is necessarily true

the PC can give redress for a BFD that occurred due to an error by the RC for example....

For example, if the Prep flag was dropped (and the sound signal made) 2-3 seconds early, and the start was on time, then a boat could be OCS having reset their timer at 1 minute and then hit the line at speed based on the wrong timing. she would still be OCS and therefore BFD, BUT would also be entitled to redress since she was over early due to the RC's incorrect timing at the 1 minute gun.


.... or a start signal that is 1.5 seconds late.

#125 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:32 PM

Odd, no relevant RYA Appeal here

http://www.rya.org.u...yacasebook.aspx

What's odd? It's the 09-12 RYA casebook, and this incident was last summer, so it's not surprising that it isn't there. Plenty of cases referring to redress, but this situation is new (never heard of anything similar myself), so nothing similar in the book.

Current Appeals, not yet published in the Appeal Book are shown in the panel at bottom right of the screen.

#126 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:46 PM

Very interesting end of the story...
Quote from the Merlin Rocket forum:


The RYA appeal committee upheld the appeal to the extent that the award of Average Points was incorrect and that reinstatement of the place achieved in the race was the correct action. They also stated that they could not resolve this without the protest committe finding as a fact that 3652 was not OCS. The appeal was returned to the original protest committee chairman for him to support his own decision that 3652 should be awarded APs, by finding this fact.
The protest committee chairman refused to find this fact and so the original BFD was imposed.

http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
http://www.merlinroc...order=1&search=
Does anyone know more details?

OK, hypothetically, is it possible for a boat, at a black flag start, to be OCS but not BFD?


without the facts its hard to understand
...
the boat was OCS and therefore BFD

I was posing the question hypothetically and generally, NOT based on the facts (or lack of facts known to us) in the Merlin Rocket case.

Would you care to reconsider: are you sure that, with a Black Flag flying a boat On the Course Side is necessarily to be disqualified under rule 30.3?

#127 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:59 PM

In principle its certainly possible for a boat to be pushed over the line by a boat breaking R2 during a black flag start. (imagine a boat deliberately ramming another from clear astern until they are over the line), in which case it would be entirely reasonable for that boat to get redress, and it would also be the correct to expect that boat to retire from the race course once she knew she was black flag DSQ'd.

Good take on a possible grounds for a boat to be given redress.

Although, interestingly, such a boat might not be eligible for redress under a P or I flag start (Case 28 and Q&A 2009-010).

The expectation is that the boat, no matter how unfairly forced over, will return and start correctly, and may then be given redress for her time lost.

A boat BFD is under NO obligation to remove herself from the course (and, indeed has no means of knowing that she is BFD) unless there is a specific SI requiring her to.

A boat (not forced to do so by injury or damage) that retires from a race and does not achieve a finishing place has worsened her score by that action, and is not entitled to redress.

#128 JohnMB

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:10 PM


In principle its certainly possible for a boat to be pushed over the line by a boat breaking R2 during a black flag start. (imagine a boat deliberately ramming another from clear astern until they are over the line), in which case it would be entirely reasonable for that boat to get redress, and it would also be the correct to expect that boat to retire from the race course once she knew she was black flag DSQ'd.

Good take on a possible grounds for a boat to be given redress.

Although, interestingly, such a boat might not be eligible for redress under a P or I flag start (Case 28 and Q&A 2009-010).

The expectation is that the boat, no matter how unfairly forced over, will return and start correctly, and may then be given redress for her time lost.

A boat BFD is under NO obligation to remove herself from the course (and, indeed has no means of knowing that she is BFD) unless there is a specific SI requiring her to.

A boat (not forced to do so by injury or damage) that retires from a race and does not achieve a finishing place has worsened her score by that action, and is not entitled to redress.


if there is a black flag start, the PC signals an individual recall, and hails the boats number, then she knows she was ocs on a black flag.
case 65 indicates that

When a boat knows that she has broken the Black Flag rule, she is obliged to retire promptly.


and by analagy with P or I flag starts, if she is OCS she is OCS and has to deal with that. (even if she was OCS for some reason she will later legitimately expect redress for)... she should therefore retire promptly.

based on case 65 a boat who becomes OCS for some reason specified in R62 should retire, and should still be entitled to redress. (and would definitely be allowed to quote that part of case 65 to anyone who suggested that she should not have retired if she wanted redress.)

#129 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:19 PM



In principle its certainly possible for a boat to be pushed over the line by a boat breaking R2 during a black flag start. (imagine a boat deliberately ramming another from clear astern until they are over the line), in which case it would be entirely reasonable for that boat to get redress, and it would also be the correct to expect that boat to retire from the race course once she knew she was black flag DSQ'd.

Good take on a possible grounds for a boat to be given redress.

Although, interestingly, such a boat might not be eligible for redress under a P or I flag start (Case 28 and Q&A 2009-010).

The expectation is that the boat, no matter how unfairly forced over, will return and start correctly, and may then be given redress for her time lost.

A boat BFD is under NO obligation to remove herself from the course (and, indeed has no means of knowing that she is BFD) unless there is a specific SI requiring her to.

A boat (not forced to do so by injury or damage) that retires from a race and does not achieve a finishing place has worsened her score by that action, and is not entitled to redress.


if there is a black flag start, the PC signals an individual recall, and hails the boats number, then she knows she was ocs on a black flag.
case 65 indicates that

When a boat knows that she has broken the Black Flag rule, she is obliged to retire promptly.


and by analagy with P or I flag starts, if she is OCS she is OCS and has to deal with that. (even if she was OCS for some reason she will later legitimately expect redress for)... she should therefore retire promptly.

based on case 65 a boat who becomes OCS for some reason specified in R62 should retire, and should still be entitled to redress. (and would definitely be allowed to quote that part of case 65 to anyone who suggested that she should not have retired if she wanted redress.)

There are NO individual recalls on a black flag start. Only general recalls.

It must be written in the SIs that a boat may be informed and must leave the course. Or if there is a general recall .......

Attached File  30.3.PNG   81.85K   10 downloads

#130 JohnMB

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:45 PM

There are NO individual recalls on a black flag start. Only general recalls.

It must be written in the SIs that a boat may be informed and must leave the course. Or if there is a general recall .......

Attached File  30.3.PNG   81.85K   10 downloads


sry my bad... i took a look but did not realize that that mean individual recalls are not done for black flags.( Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early)

even so.... if the boat retires and says they though they were over... due to an error then they should still be bale to use case 65 to say that retiring was their proper course of action and that they are entitle dto redress.


to be honest this was why I assumed that the average points was given, because the PC concluded that had they known they were over they should have retired and therefore their actual finish was immaterial.

#131 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:07 PM


There are NO individual recalls on a black flag start. Only general recalls.

It must be written in the SIs that a boat may be informed and must leave the course. Or if there is a general recall .......

Attached File  30.3.PNG   81.85K   10 downloads


sry my bad... i took a look but did not realize that that mean individual recalls are not done for black flags.( Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early)even so.... if the boat retires and says they though they were over... due to an error then they should still be bale to use case 65 to say that retiring was their proper course of action and that they are entitle dto redress.


to be honest this was why I assumed that the average points was given, because the PC concluded that had they known they were over they should have retired and therefore their actual finish was immaterial.


" Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early" .... I'm inclined to agree, except that boats that were not over could think they were. Could be written in the SIs.


"if the boat retires and says they though they were over... " no case for redress. Not a RC error that a boat mistakenly thinks they are over.

#132 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:13 PM


I did not realize that that individual recalls are not done for black flags.( Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early)


I'm inclined to agree, except that boats that were not over could think they were. Could be written in the SIs.


Rule 29.1 specifically says you can't signal Individual recall under a black flag (or does it?).

If rule 30.3 applies this rule does not



#133 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:19 PM



I did not realize that that individual recalls are not done for black flags.( Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early)


I'm inclined to agree, except that boats that were not over could think they were. Could be written in the SIs.


Rule 29.1 specifically says you can't signal Individual recall under a black flag (or does it?).

If rule 30.3 applies this rule does not


When I agreed with MB's comment "Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early) .. I meant some method to inform boats that are penalised under a black flag - not to recall them.

#134 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:30 PM




I did not realize that that individual recalls are not done for black flags.( Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early)


I'm inclined to agree, except that boats that were not over could think they were. Could be written in the SIs.


Rule 29.1 specifically says you can't signal Individual recall under a black flag (or does it?).

If rule 30.3 applies this rule does not


When I agreed with MB's comment "Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early) .. I meant some method to inform boats that are penalised under a black flag - not to recall them.

The method is 'Look at the results sheet at the finish of the race'.

Given that a boat that is BFD can't return and restart correctly, the idea is that there's no point in individual recalls.

Yes, you can use the 'Whiteboard at the top mark and sail off the course' SI if you wish, but by doing this, there will be no finishing position at all, so if there is a RC mistake at any of the numerous stages (identifying over, recording over, transmitting to windward mark, writing on whiteboard) a boat improperly signalled off will not get any finishing place upon which a redress calculation could be based.

If you're going to use the 'signalling off' SI, you'd better make sure that your RC and mark-boats are top-notch and actually practiced in doing it.

#135 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:36 PM





I did not realize that that individual recalls are not done for black flags.( Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early)


I'm inclined to agree, except that boats that were not over could think they were. Could be written in the SIs.


Rule 29.1 specifically says you can't signal Individual recall under a black flag (or does it?).



When I agreed with MB's comment "Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early) .. I meant some method to inform boats that are penalised under a black flag - not to recall them.

The method is 'Look at the results sheet at the finish of the race'.

Given that a boat that is BFD can't return and restart correctly, the idea is that there's no point in individual recalls.

Yes, you can use the 'Whiteboard at the top mark and sail off the course' SI if you wish, but by doing this, there will be no finishing position at all, so if there is a RC mistake at any of the numerous stages (identifying over, recording over, transmitting to windward mark, writing on whiteboard) a boat improperly signalled off will not get any finishing place upon which a redress calculation could be based.

If you're going to use the 'signalling off' SI, you'd better make sure that your RC and mark-boats are top-notch and actually practiced in doing it.


And if there is a general recall, or the race is abandonded after the start and BFD boats are sent off and have no finish place, " a boat improperly signalled off will not get any finishing place upon which a redress calculation could be based" ..... how is that any different?

#136 Brass

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:46 PM



When I agreed with MB's comment "Its still not totally clear to me that some form or recall is not required to indicate that one or more boats where over early) .. I meant some method to inform boats that are penalised under a black flag - not to recall them.

The method is 'Look at the results sheet at the finish of the race'.

Given that a boat that is BFD can't return and restart correctly, the idea is that there's no point in individual recalls.

Yes, you can use the 'Whiteboard at the top mark and sail off the course' SI if you wish, but by doing this, there will be no finishing position at all, so if there is a RC mistake at any of the numerous stages (identifying over, recording over, transmitting to windward mark, writing on whiteboard) a boat improperly signalled off will not get any finishing place upon which a redress calculation could be based.

If you're going to use the 'signalling off' SI, you'd better make sure that your RC and mark-boats are top-notch and actually practiced in doing it.


And if there is a general recall, or the race is abandonded after the start and BFD boats are sent off and have no finish place, " a boat improperly signalled off will not get any finishing place upon which a redress calculation could be based" ..... how is that any different?


It's not. The same problem of a boat, mistakenly warned off by the race committee not having any finishing place to assist in calculating redress arises.

Rigid enforcement of exclusion after a Black Flag General Recall is an essential part of the 'fleet reduction' strategy of the Black Flag.

What I'm saying is that the 'Whitboard at windward mark' SI significantly increases the risk of a RC mistake, and shouldn't be used just because somebody read about it on the internet and thought it was clever.

#137 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:51 PM

It's not. The same problem of a boat, mistakenly warned off by the race committee not having any finishing place to assist in calculating redress arises.

Rigid enforcement of exclusion after a Black Flag General Recall is an essential part of the 'fleet reduction' strategy of the Black Flag.

What I'm saying is that the 'Whitboard at windward mark' SI significantly increases the risk of a RC mistake, and shouldn't be used just because somebody read about it on the internet and thought it was clever.


I don't have an old rule book with me but back in '99, that (I think) was in the RRS. I used it in a WC. Blackboard on the RC boat at each end when GR. Blackboard at WM if no GR. Only error was the assistant RO (from NSW) misread a sail number on a GR. That's another story.

#138 JohnMB

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:52 PM


"if the boat retires and says they though they were over... " no case for redress. Not a RC error that a boat mistakenly thinks they are over.


sorry out of context

Boat A is OCS due to a race comittee error of some kind,
there is a black flag

Boat A knows that they where OCS

Brass's view

A boat BFD is under NO obligation to remove herself from the course (and, indeed has no means of knowing that she is BFD) unless there is a specific SI requiring her to.

A boat (not forced to do so by injury or damage) that retires from a race and does not achieve a finishing place has worsened her score by that action, and is not entitled to redress.


My view
based on case 65 if the boat is aware that they where OCS under a black flag they should retire... even if they later plan to file for redress, (because that is what case 65 says)
i misworded it, because I was trying to indicate that a boat who retires under this circumstance can bring case 65 up as the reason they where 'obliged' to retire as soon as possible and not contiune.
obviously if they continue and finish this should be because they where not sure or not aware that they where over early.

#139 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:00 PM





"if the boat retires and says they though they were over... " no case for redress. Not a RC error that a boat mistakenly thinks they are over.


sorry out of context

Boat A is OCS due to a race comittee error of some kind,
there is a black flag

Boat A knows that they where OCS

Brass's view

A boat BFD is under NO obligation to remove herself from the course (and, indeed has no means of knowing that she is BFD) unless there is a specific SI requiring her to.

A boat (not forced to do so by injury or damage) that retires from a race and does not achieve a finishing place has worsened her score by that action, and is not entitled to redress.


My view
based on case 65 if the boat is aware that they where OCS under a black flag they should retire... even if they later plan to file for redress, (because that is what case 65 says)
i misworded it, because I was trying to indicate that a boat who retires under this circumstance can bring case 65 up as the reason they where 'obliged' to retire as soon as possible and not contiune.
obviously if they continue and finish this should be because they where not sure or not aware that they where over early.

Case 65 is more about RRS 2, Fair Sailing. 30.1 is just the reason RRS2 comes into play.

#140 Presuming Ed

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:48 PM

Odd, no relevant RYA Appeal here

http://www.rya.org.u...yacasebook.aspx

What's odd? It's the 09-12 RYA casebook, and this incident was last summer, so it's not surprising that it isn't there. Plenty of cases referring to redress, but this situation is new (never heard of anything similar myself), so nothing similar in the book.

Current Appeals, not yet published in the Appeal Book are shown in the panel at bottom right of the screen.


Those aren't current appeals, those are appeals have been approved for inclusion in the next RYA casebook.

#141 Brass

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:42 AM


Odd, no relevant RYA Appeal here

http://www.rya.org.u...yacasebook.aspx

What's odd? It's the 09-12 RYA casebook, and this incident was last summer, so it's not surprising that it isn't there. Plenty of cases referring to redress, but this situation is new (never heard of anything similar myself), so nothing similar in the book.

Current Appeals, not yet published in the Appeal Book are shown in the panel at bottom right of the screen.


Those aren't current appeals, those are appeals have been approved for inclusion in the next RYA casebook.


I know that words like that are used, but do you know for sure whether, in that place RYA shows ONLY appeals approved for the future Appeals book or whether it actually shows all appeals decided?

#142 JohnMB

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:16 AM




"if the boat retires and says they though they were over... " no case for redress. Not a RC error that a boat mistakenly thinks they are over.


sorry out of context

Boat A is OCS due to a race comittee error of some kind,
there is a black flag

Boat A knows that they where OCS

Brass's view

A boat BFD is under NO obligation to remove herself from the course (and, indeed has no means of knowing that she is BFD) unless there is a specific SI requiring her to.

A boat (not forced to do so by injury or damage) that retires from a race and does not achieve a finishing place has worsened her score by that action, and is not entitled to redress.


My view
based on case 65 if the boat is aware that they where OCS under a black flag they should retire... even if they later plan to file for redress, (because that is what case 65 says)
i misworded it, because I was trying to indicate that a boat who retires under this circumstance can bring case 65 up as the reason they where 'obliged' to retire as soon as possible and not contiune.
obviously if they continue and finish this should be because they where not sure or not aware that they where over early.

Case 65 is more about RRS 2, Fair Sailing. 30.1 is just the reason RRS2 comes into play.


I agree with that but the headline statement is

When a boat knows that she has broken the Black Flag rule, she is obliged to retire promptly. When she does not do so and then deliberately hinders another boat in the race, she commits a gross breach of sportsmanship and of rule 2, and her helmsman commits a gross breach of sportsmanship.


two parts to this
1. a boat knows that she has broken the black flag rule in which case she is obliged to retire
2. if she doesn't and then deliberately hinders another boat she breaks rule 2

if a boat is ocs under a black flag and knows it, but feels she is entitled to redress then, she has every reason to retire and apply for redress... case 65 STATES clearly that if she know she is OCS she should retire.

#143 ColinG

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:37 AM

Why do we have a discard anyway these days? In days of yaw I'd guess that damage was more frequent and just plain down to luck. Not much excuse these days.


How is that different from the days of "pitch"?

Or were you more thinking of the "days of yore"? :D

#144 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:23 AM





"if the boat retires and says they though they were over... " no case for redress. Not a RC error that a boat mistakenly thinks they are over.


sorry out of context

Boat A is OCS due to a race comittee error of some kind,
there is a black flag

Boat A knows that they where OCS



My view
based on case 65 if the boat is aware that they where OCS under a black flag they should retire... even if they later plan to file for redress, (because that is what case 65 says)
i misworded it, because I was trying to indicate that a boat who retires under this circumstance can bring case 65 up as the reason they where 'obliged' to retire as soon as possible and not contiune.
obviously if they continue and finish this should be because they where not sure or not aware that they where over early.

Case 65 is more about RRS 2, Fair Sailing. 30.1 is just the reason RRS2 comes into play.


I agree with that but the headline statement is

When a boat knows that she has broken the Black Flag rule, she is obliged to retire promptly. When she does not do so and then deliberately hinders another boat in the race, she commits a gross breach of sportsmanship and of rule 2, and her helmsman commits a gross breach of sportsmanship.


two parts to this
1. a boat knows that she has broken the black flag rule in which case she is obliged to retire
2. if she doesn't and then deliberately hinders another boat she breaks rule 2

if a boat is ocs under a black flag and knows it, but feels she is entitled to redress then, she has every reason to retire and apply for redress... case 65 STATES clearly that if she know she is OCS she should retire.


Case 65. The offending boat was deliberately several boat lengths over the line.

Case 65 is about rule 2 in that the boat deliberately broke rule 30.1 and "then deliberately hindered another boat"

Case 65 is not about boats that may be a little over and may not be sure they are over.

Most boats that are scored OCS don't think they are over. Similarly, there are plenty of boats that do return on an X flag that were never over early.

#145 Brass

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:44 AM

sorry out of context
Boat A is OCS due to a race comittee error of some kind,
there is a black flag
Boat A knows that they where OCS
My view
based on case 65 if the boat is aware that they where OCS under a black flag they should retire... even if they later plan to file for redress, (because that is what case 65 says)
i misworded it, because I was trying to indicate that a boat who retires under this circumstance can bring case 65 up as the reason they where 'obliged' to retire as soon as possible and not contiune.
obviously if they continue and finish this should be because they where not sure or not aware that they where over early.

Case 65 is more about RRS 2, Fair Sailing. 30.1 is just the reason RRS2 comes into play.


I agree with that but the headline statement is

When a boat knows that she has broken the Black Flag rule, she is obliged to retire promptly. When she does not do so and then deliberately hinders another boat in the race, she commits a gross breach of sportsmanship and of rule 2, and her helmsman commits a gross breach of sportsmanship.


two parts to this
1. a boat knows that she has broken the black flag rule in which case she is obliged to retire
2. if she doesn't and then deliberately hinders another boat she breaks rule 2

if a boat is ocs under a black flag and knows it, but feels she is entitled to redress then, she has every reason to retire and apply for redress... case 65 STATES clearly that if she know she is OCS she should retire.


Case 65. The offending boat was deliberately several boat lengths over the line.

Case 65 is about rule 2 in that the boat deliberately broke rule 30.1 and "then deliberately hindered another boat"

Case 65 is not about boats that may be a little over and may not be sure they are over.

Most boats that are scored OCS don't think they are over. Similarly, there are plenty of boats that do return on an X flag that were never over early.


First, as any first year law student knows 'Never rely on a headnote'. I agree with Johnny that Case 65 involving gross breach of sportsmanship is distinguishable from, for example, the case where a boat gets shunted over the line by another boat's breach of sportsmahship.

But I don't think it matters.

You will recall that what I was really concerned about was the value of a boat achieving a finishing place to assist the protest committee in deciding how much redress to grant.

I've figured it out.

There are two different situations.

Situation 1: the boat requesting redress is clearly over at the start. In this case
  • the boat has the 'jump' on the rest of the fleet and any finish place she gets will not fairly and accurately represent her merit or 'the place/score she should be given'.
  • It is of no use to the protest committee wheteher she sails the course or not.
  • I understand the fact that Case 65 can be interpreted as obliging her to sail off the course if she 'knows' she is over, and would be prepared to give her redress if she did sail off.

Situation 2: the boat requesting redress is disputing whether or not she actually was over. In this case:
  • normally it will be a close run thing, it can not be said that she 'knows' she is over
  • that being the case her finishing position will be useful to the protest committee in deciding how much redress she should be given
  • If she says she sailed off the course and did not finish because of Case 65, then she is admitting she 'knew' she was over therefore redress should not be given.


#146 JohnMB

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:01 AM

There are two different situations.

Situation 1: the boat requesting redress is clearly over at the start. In this case

  • the boat has the 'jump' on the rest of the fleet and any finish place she gets will not fairly and accurately represent her merit or 'the place/score she should be given'.
  • It is of no use to the protest committee wheteher she sails the course or not.
  • I understand the fact that Case 65 can be interpreted as obliging her to sail off the course if she 'knows' she is over, and would be prepared to give her redress if she did sail off.

Situation 2: the boat requesting redress is disputing whether or not she actually was over. In this case:
  • normally it will be a close run thing, it can not be said that she 'knows' she is over
  • that being the case her finishing position will be useful to the protest committee in deciding how much redress she should be given
  • If she says she sailed off the course and did not finish because of Case 65, then she is admitting she 'knew' she was over therefore redress should not be given.



sounds about right to me

ultimately situation 2 has two possible outcomes:
1 PC agrees that she was not over... and reinstates her finish
2. PC does not agree and finds her OCS and therefore BFD
anything she looses beyond her actual finish is totally her own fault :)

#147 Brass

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:41 AM

There are two different situations.

Situation 1: the boat requesting redress is clearly over at the start. In this case

  • the boat has the 'jump' on the rest of the fleet and any finish place she gets will not fairly and accurately represent her merit or 'the place/score she should be given'.
  • It is of no use to the protest committee wheteher she sails the course or not.
  • I understand the fact that Case 65 can be interpreted as obliging her to sail off the course if she 'knows' she is over, and would be prepared to give her redress if she did sail off.
Situation 2: the boat requesting redress is disputing whether or not she actually was over. In this case:
  • normally it will be a close run thing, it can not be said that she 'knows' she is over
  • that being the case her finishing position will be useful to the protest committee in deciding how much redress she should be given
  • If she says she sailed off the course and did not finish because of Case 65, then she is admitting she 'knew' she was over therefore redress should not be given.


sounds about right to me

ultimately situation 2 has two possible outcomes:
1 PC agrees that she was not over... and reinstates her finish
2. PC does not agree and finds her OCS and therefore BFD
anything she looses beyond her actual finish is totally her own fault :)

OK, so back to my question: Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?



#148 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:36 AM

There are two different situations.

Situation 1: the boat requesting redress is clearly over at the start. In this case

  • the boat has the 'jump' on the rest of the fleet and any finish place she gets will not fairly and accurately represent her merit or 'the place/score she should be given'.
  • It is of no use to the protest committee wheteher she sails the course or not.
  • I understand the fact that Case 65 can be interpreted as obliging her to sail off the course if she 'knows' she is over, and would be prepared to give her redress if she did sail off.
Situation 2: the boat requesting redress is disputing whether or not she actually was over. In this case:
  • normally it will be a close run thing, it can not be said that she 'knows' she is over
  • that being the case her finishing position will be useful to the protest committee in deciding how much redress she should be given
  • If she says she sailed off the course and did not finish because of Case 65, then she is admitting she 'knew' she was over therefore redress should not be given.


sounds about right to me

ultimately situation 2 has two possible outcomes:
1 PC agrees that she was not over... and reinstates her finish
2. PC does not agree and finds her OCS and therefore BFD
anything she looses beyond her actual finish is totally her own fault :)

OK, so back to my question: Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?



Under a black flag start, can a boat be scored OCS and not be BFD?

If that is what you mean then the answer is No.


But if you mean "Under a black flag start, can a boat be on the course side of the line and not be scored BFD?" - Then yes, if they receive redress for some reason.

#149 TD Floater

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:47 AM


You beat me to it. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that is why I keep asking about what happened in Race 3 (or what the assumptions for the discussion are) - otherwise we are missing relevant facts.

The assumption for the discussion is that they were correctly awarded redress. I have no great interest in the rights and wrongs of one particular redress decision (nor do I know *any* of the details), which as far as I am concerned is utterly irrelevant to the point in hand. What I am concerned about is that sailing someone down the fleet to lower their average points *as well* as give them a bad result appears to me to be a perversion of the redress principle, which I thought was intended, as closely as possible, to put the competitor in the position they would be in if the third party error hadn't happened.


How did Boat 1 go from 1's to a 4th, with boat 2 a 5th place in race 5?

Did boat 1 sail 2 down? Making 2 decide to do a better job in race 6?

#150 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:51 AM

OK, so back to my question: Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?

Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.

Attached File  Z and Black Flag Triangle.gif   37.05K   57 downloads

If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be scored OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.

#151 trt

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:55 AM

What I'm saying is that the 'Whitboard at windward mark' SI significantly increases the risk of a RC mistake, and shouldn't be used just because somebody read about it on the internet and thought it was clever.


This was the procedure at the recent Etchells Worlds in Sydney. In one race three boats were identified as BFD and their numbers displayed at the top mark. All boats left the course and sailed home from the top mark. Subsequently two of the boats requested redress and were granted redress because the RC had mis-identified both boats. The redress given was average points up to that race. The only problem was the two boats were 2nd and 3rd at the top mark and the redress was a number of points higher than those scores. I am not if favour of pulling boats off the course as it screws up the redress score when the RC stuffs up.

#152 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 05:10 AM

What I'm saying is that the 'Whitboard at windward mark' SI significantly increases the risk of a RC mistake, and shouldn't be used just because somebody read about it on the internet and thought it was clever.


This was the procedure at the recent Etchells Worlds in Sydney. In one race three boats were identified as BFD and their numbers displayed at the top mark. All boats left the course and sailed home from the top mark. Subsequently two of the boats requested redress and were granted redress because the RC had mis-identified both boats. The redress given was average points up to that race. The only problem was the two boats were 2nd and 3rd at the top mark and the redress was a number of points higher than those scores. I am not if favour of pulling boats off the course as it screws up the redress score when the RC stuffs up.

So were they misidentified on one of the committee boats or were the numbers written wrongly at the windward mark?

#153 trt

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:36 AM

So were they misidentified on one of the committee boats or were the numbers written wrongly at the windward mark?


Misidentified on one of the committee boats.

#154 Brass

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:28 AM

I don't have an old rule book with me but back in '99, that (I think) was in the RRS. I used it in a WC. Blackboard on the RC boat at each end when GR. Blackboard at WM if no GR. Only error was the assistant RO (from NSW) misread a sail number on a GR. That's another story.


Pre 1995 (Old) rules didn't have any Black Flag start.

1997 rules (New) have 30.1 I Flag, 30.2 Z Flag, 30.3 Black Flag, much as they are now. No mention of display or withdraw at the windward mark. I would think it was in the SI, as we would do it now.

#155 Presuming Ed

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:40 AM


Why do we have a discard anyway these days? In days of yaw I'd guess that damage was more frequent and just plain down to luck. Not much excuse these days.


How is that different from the days of "pitch"?

Or were you more thinking of the "days of yore"? :D


Days of serge? Posted Image

#156 JohnMB

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:43 PM

OK, so back to my question: Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?

Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.

Attached File  Z and Black Flag Triangle.gif   37.05K   57 downloads

If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be scored OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.


cool... hadn't though of that...

we are dragging the smelly corners of the rules here :)

#157 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:22 PM

I don't have an old rule book with me but back in '99, that (I think) was in the RRS. I used it in a WC. Blackboard on the RC boat at each end when GR. Blackboard at WM if no GR. Only error was the assistant RO (from NSW) misread a sail number on a GR. That's another story.


Pre 1995 (Old) rules didn't have any Black Flag start.

1997 rules (New) have 30.1 I Flag, 30.2 Z Flag, 30.3 Black Flag, much as they are now. No mention of display or withdraw at the windward mark. I would think it was in the SI, as we would do it now.

Probably right. I can remember one start when I used Z - for the first & only time, ever, and I could hear the competitors asking each other (and the RC boat) "WTF is that flag?"

#158 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:08 PM


OK, so back to my question: Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?

Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.

Attached File  Z and Black Flag Triangle.gif   37.05K   57 downloads

If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be scored OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.


cool... hadn't though of that...

we are dragging the smelly corners of the rules here :)


That is ridiculous. If the boat does as descrbed and does not "start properly" (which I presume means did not sail completely to the prestart side of the line), then that boat has not started according to the definition and should be scored DNS.

Trying to interpret that as scored OCS is just another stupid example of the bullshit interpretations that are pissing off the competitors.

#159 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

That is ridiculous. If the boat does as descrbed and does not "start properly" (which I presume means did not sail completely to the prestart side of the line), then that boat has not started according to the definition and should be scored DNS.

Trying to interpret that as scored OCS is just another stupid example of the bullshit interpretations that are pissing off the competitors.

Just because you think it's ridiculous doesn't make it so. That's the way the rules are written.

Definition of DNS:

DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)

Therefore, the application of DNS in this case is incorrect.

And why would it piss off the competitors? The numeric score for OCS and DNS is the same. Might make them scratch their heads a bit, but pissed off?
Who knows? They might actually learn and appreciate a quirk in the rules, unlike a grumpy old NRO from the Whitsundays.

#160 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:43 PM

That is ridiculous. If the boat does as descrbed and does not "start properly" (which I presume means did not sail completely to the prestart side of the line), then that boat has not started according to the definition and should be scored DNS.

Trying to interpret that as scored OCS is just another stupid example of the bullshit interpretations that are pissing off the competitors.

Just because you think it's ridiculous doesn't make it so. That's the way the rules are written.

Definition of DNS:

DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)

Therefore, the application of DNS in this case is incorrect.

And why would it piss off the competitors? The numeric score for OCS and DNS is the same. Might make them scratch their heads a bit, but pissed off?
Who knows? They might actually learn and appreciate a quirk in the rules, unlike a grumpy old NRO from the Whitsundays.

If a boat does not comply with the definition of start, it is scored DNS.

In your description the boat has not complied with that definition. The idea that a boat doing what you describe and being scored OCS on a black flag is plain ridiculous.

Maybe you should listen occasionaly to the people who do race. Plenty of people here complain of how stupid the rules have become.

#161 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

If a boat does not comply with the definition of start, it is scored DNS.

No, you need to re-read the definition of DNS. If a boat is OCS and doesn't start properly, they are scored OCS, not DNS - it doesn't matter what the prep flag is.
Definition of DNS:

DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)


Maybe you should listen occasionaly to the people who do race. Plenty of people here complain of how stupid the rules have become.

You're presuming I don't race? Or that I don't listen? Both would be incorrect assumptions. This is such an arcane corner of the rules it's highly unlikely to ever materialize in anything but a race management / rules quiz. But I certainly have enjoyed winding you up over it.

#162 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:36 PM



If a boat does not comply with the definition of start, it is scored DNS.

No, you need to re-read the definition of DNS. If a boat is OCS and doesn't start properly, they are scored OCS, not DNS - it doesn't matter what the prep flag is.
Definition of DNS:

DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)


Maybe you should listen occasionaly to the people who do race. Plenty of people here complain of how stupid the rules have become.

You're presuming I don't race? Or that I don't listen? Both would be incorrect assumptions. This is such an arcane corner of the rules it's highly unlikely to ever materialize in anything but a race management / rules quiz. But I certainly have enjoyed winding you up over it.


I have to wonder how much you actually know of the rules, as opposed to how much you THINK you know of the rules.

Where in the RRS is "start properly"?

#163 Brass

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:06 PM


If a boat does not comply with the definition of start, it is scored DNS.

No, you need to re-read the definition of DNS. If a boat is OCS and doesn't start properly, they are scored OCS, not DNS - it doesn't matter what the prep flag is.
Definition of DNS:

DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)


I have to wonder how much you actually know of the rules, as opposed to how much you THINK you know of the rules.
Where in the RRS is "start properly"?


OK, Johnny, instead of 'start properly' let's say

"on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal and failed to start"

Recognise that one: criterion for OCS in rule A11

And just a reminder: Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, ... any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line in the direction of the first mark.

In Hobie's diagram looking at either of the boats illustrated, supposing it is a snapshot at the instant of the starting signal:

Is she on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal: YES

IF she returns so as to be entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line after the starting signal, and then crosses the starting line in the direction of the first mark, she has started and should scored according to her finishing place under rule A4.1 and rule A5 (DNS, DNF etc) does not apply.

ELSE she does not return so as to be entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line, and sails off up the course, she has 'failed to start'. The conditions for OCS under rule A11 are met. She should be scored OCS.

As Hobie has said, competitors are unlikely to even notice the difference.

OK, Next question for the class. In Hobie's diagrams, under a black flag start, how does the early over boat know she is over, and how will she know if she has returned entirely to the pre-start side of the line?

#164 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:16 PM

ELSE she does not return so as to be entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line, and sails off up the course, she has 'failed to start'. The conditions for OCS under rule A11 are met. She should be scored OCS.



'failed to start'.. You said it. DID NOT START

This is the kind of crap that has led me to give the RM game away. Fed up with the nit picking rules lawyers, and I'm not on my own I can tell you.

#165 JohnMB

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:25 PM


ELSE she does not return so as to be entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line, and sails off up the course, she has 'failed to start'. The conditions for OCS under rule A11 are met. She should be scored OCS.



'failed to start'.. You said it. DID NOT START

This is the kind of crap that has led me to give the RM game away. Fed up with the nit picking rules lawyers, and I'm not on my own I can tell you.


JS

lighten up

Brass asked if there was a loophole, Hobie found one
We all acknowledge (at least I certainly do) that this is a purely intellectual game of nit picking the rules and has no consequence in real life.

I don't believe that any one of use would be willing to leave an interesting conversation, or a half full glass to try and make sure a RC posted OCS rather than DNS, and I'm sure my reaction to anyone who cared enough to try and make someone change this would be total exasperation.

#166 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:35 PM



ELSE she does not return so as to be entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line, and sails off up the course, she has 'failed to start'. The conditions for OCS under rule A11 are met. She should be scored OCS.



'failed to start'.. You said it. DID NOT START

This is the kind of crap that has led me to give the RM game away. Fed up with the nit picking rules lawyers, and I'm not on my own I can tell you.


JS

lighten up

Brass asked if there was a loophole, Hobie found one
We all acknowledge (at least I certainly do) that this is a purely intellectual game of nit picking the rules and has no consequence in real life.

I don't believe that any one of use would be willing to leave an interesting conversation, or a half full glass to try and make sure a RC posted OCS rather than DNS, and I'm sure my reaction to anyone who cared enough to try and make someone change this would be total exasperation.


Exactly.

I've been thru this kind of shit before with some high ranking people. I got involved in RM to give something back to the sport I have been part of for more than 50 years. I did not get involved to kowtow to peoples egos. I've got 1 more event to do then I'll leave it to the egotists.

#167 soling2003

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 05:49 AM

Ok, so we spent 7 pages and haven't answered the OP's question. We found out kind of what happened on the race coarse, but the question is, should you include the discarded finish position in the redress's average score, or not? Pretty simple question really. Ignore the rest.

#168 Dog Watch

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:39 AM

Ok, so we spent 7 pages and haven't answered the OP's question. We found out kind of what happened on the race coarse, but the question is, should you include the discarded finish position in the redress's average score, or not? Pretty simple question really. Ignore the rest.


Think we worked this out in Post #26Posted Image

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=126132&view=findpost&p=3390551







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