1923 replies to this topic

[Hatin' life]

Is there a deadline for a boat to be picked?

[TornadoSail2016]

Agree with your argument, however I had different T from different manufacturers and hulls are not the same, but it is still a Tornado.
The Tornado was conceived at the beginning to be built with plywood in a garage and provides flexibility within the one design rule.

I have owned 2 tornados that I built, both different, a Reg White, a Boyer, an older Marstrom and a Yankee Laminates boat. All of the hull shapes were slightly different due to the designers interpretation of what is fast. Until the mid 2000's you had a 10mm tolerance to most of the templates. I believe that the new tolerance is 5mm on even the diagonals. But there was enough of a difference to have different performing platforms.

[TornadoSail2016]

Is there a deadline for a boat to be picked?

It is supposed to be a topic at the May ISAF meeting. Whether it will be decided by then, who knows.

[Tornado-Cat]

What we need to know in order to have a clear process are:
- the criteria
- the weigh of each criteria
- the score of each boat in each criteria
- the global weighted score of each boat.

Figoroa said on tape he was looking for a boat for 20 years, low cost/affordable, and exciting to sail for the mixed teams.

Nothing new here!

As I said.... the key factor is how effective the test pilots are in explaining the boats to the committee and what they put down on paper.

I doubt there is a clear cut winner on the water... The management stuff will be very important to the recommendation going forward. ISAF reps will read the rec, the proposals, and the sailor surveys and comments. What's on paper will be key.... as they try to do their job and pick a boat for the world.

Thanks. I agree with you, up to now the process seems to be going very smoothly.

I am happy to see different boats which will make the selection more interesting. I would have appreciated an M20 and a F20c, but requirements for lower costs prevented it.

I hope the organizers will provide a clear evaluation sheet, and scores, which is the normal process for any serious bid. Otherwise the conclusions will most probalbly be contested, whatever the choice of the boat.

Time for transparency, for the best of Isaf and all of us.

[Tcatman]

What we need to know in order to have a clear process are:
- the criteria
- the weigh of each criteria
- the score of each boat in each criteria
- the global weighted score of each boat.

Figoroa said on tape he was looking for a boat for 20 years, low cost/affordable, and exciting to sail for the mixed teams.

Nothing new here!

As I said.... the key factor is how effective the test pilots are in explaining the boats to the committee and what they put down on paper.

I doubt there is a clear cut winner on the water... The management stuff will be very important to the recommendation going forward. ISAF reps will read the rec, the proposals, and the sailor surveys and comments. What's on paper will be key.... as they try to do their job and pick a boat for the world.

Thanks. I agree with you, up to now the process seems to be going very smoothly.

I am happy to see different boats which will make the selection more interesting. I would have appreciated an M20 and a F20c, but requirements for lower costs prevented it.

I hope the organizers will provide a clear evaluation sheet, and scores, which is the normal process for any serious bid. Otherwise the conclusions will most probalbly be contested, whatever the choice of the boat.

Time for transparency, for the best of Isaf and all of us.

HOLY SHIT.... WE AGREE.... completely and with out any quibbles.

ISAF would do well to put out LOTS of the Data they collect. I used that post a comment form to ask for a copy of the questionaire that the test pilots fill out.

Very interested in what information they want to collect.

[Scarecrow]

Hopefully something else that can be agreed on.....

I have yet to see a decent photo of the H16 at the trials, it just doesn't look comfortable in that environment with the other boats.

[Hobie]

Hopefully something else that can be agreed on.....

I have yet to see a decent photo of the H16 at the trials, it just doesn't look comfortable in that environment with the other boats.

The Hobie 16 is a different kind of boat for a different purpose. It's a great boat and a great class but it's the wrong boat for the Olympics. I think it's there as a reference point more than anything, same as the Tornado at the other end of the spectrum.

[Horse]

I have yet to see a decent photo of the H16 at the trials,

Do you think that maybe deleberate by ISAF? They are taking the photos and they are deciding what is published.

[Scarecrow]

No I'm pretty sure its because it is a hobie 16

[HobieAnarchy]

Hopefully something else that can be agreed on.....

I have yet to see a decent photo of the H16 at the trials, it just doesn't look comfortable in that environment with the other boats.

The Hobie 16 is a different kind of boat for a different purpose. It's a great boat and a great class but it's the wrong boat for the Olympics. I think it's there as a reference point more than anything, same as the Tornado at the other end of the spectrum.

I agree. A lot of people say, "The Hobie 16 is like the Laser - SMOD, lots of them around the world, relatively inexpensive." But they're wrong.

The Hobie 16 is the Snipe of catamarans. The classes even have the same (family) culture. A Snipe with a spinnaker? Heresy! Same with the Hobie 16, despite what Hobie Europe's tried to ram down the class' throat the last ten years - including putting it in the Olympic Evaluation Trials with a spinnaker. It's an abomination.

So, if the Hobie 16 is the Snipe, that makes the Tornado the . . . Flying Dutchman? Tiger is like the 505 (old, but still has legs). They others entrants are more like the skiffs - and more likely to be chosen as the next Olympic class.

[HobieAnarchy]

I have yet to see a decent photo of the H16 at the trials,

Do you think that maybe deleberate by ISAF? They are taking the photos and they are deciding what is published.

A Hobie 16's not really happy under 15 kts. - and they haven't really had those conditions yet (except the first day, and there seem to be no pictures of the carnage that ensued).

[catsailordude]

The Nacra 17 looks pretty cool, be intresting to see how different boats stack up against each other if they do some racing, be nice to see how the Nacra 17 compares to the Tornado and f18.

Tornado-Cat, heres some food for thought, so if you all of a sudden change the hulls of the tornado dosen't that make the idea of lots of second hand boats a waste of time as now the hulls are different, and if you change the hulls the the rig might not be perfect anymore, what is the point, the rig is already dated when compared to newer sail plans, shapes and materials? And you can't call it a Tornado because the only thing making it anything like the Tornado that Rodney March designed is it's size. Quit the crap!

And you higlighting it being the fastest boat, well off course it will, it's 2 foot longer than the next boat and with more sail area! Pretty simple maths! Oh and it won't be good quality if you start changing the hulls.

I'm not knocking the Tornado, because it's a lush boat, but the crap that is coming out some people is stupid and ruining a good class!

Rant over.

Apparently the Nacra 17 beat the Tornado by 1.5 minutes in the first sail-off of all the cats in 15+ knots. Having seen first hand how much faster an F20c is than a Tornado, I am not surprised that the Nacra 17 (basically a scaled down F20c) is the fastest boat at these trials. I suspect the difference would be even greater in lighter wind where the Tornado's stubby centreboards are a bigger liability.

The fact is that there is one boat that is clearly better than all of the others at these trials...the one with curved boards.

[mitchellsailor]

if you saw the facebook updates on the ahpc (VIPER) page you would see that the boats winning aren't necessarily the fastest and there is some very average boat handling happening with mismatched crews on different boats.. As an Australian I see the Nacra as a cool boat but one of the hardest to get started here

[Tornado-Cat]

Time for transparency, for the best of Isaf and all of us.

HOLY SHIT.... WE AGREE.... completely and with out any quibbles.
ISAF would do well to put out LOTS of the Data they collect. I used that post a comment form to ask for a copy of the questionaire that the test pilots fill out.
Very interested in what information they want to collect.

Not only I do agree with you but I think the transparency of the process is even more important than the winner.

Obviously my personnal preferences are with the best on the water, whether the Tornado or the Nacra 17.

I think all basic requirements are met by the players: cost, reliability and production capacity, so.................. let 's decide it on the water, and that is transparent.

The best on the water should win.

[Scarecrow]

The best should definitely win but the best at what?

Are we looking for the fastest boat?
A boat that will be exciting to watch in a range of wind strengths?
A boat that can be sailed by most to 98% of its potential so tactics win out?
A boat that can carry a range of crew weights with no noticeable speed effect.
A boat that is really hard to sail fast so the most skilled win.

Yes we definitely need to pick the best boat.

[Tornado-Cat]

The best should definitely win but the best at what?

Are we looking for the fastest boat?
Yes

A boat that will be exciting to watch in a range of wind strengths?
Yes if faster in wind above 7 knots. Trial should determine it.

A boat that can be sailed by most to 98% of its potential so tactics win out?
Olympic sailors will

A boat that can carry a range of crew weights with no noticeable speed effect.
Bigger boats are better for that = Tornado and Nacra 17

A boat that is really hard to sail fast so the most skilled win.
Olympic sailors are good

Yes we definitely need to pick the best boat.
It seems that we all agree on that, I hope ISAF will reflect that.

[Scarecrow]

Ok now put the above list in your order of priority.

For the record I have no horse in this show. But I expect the result to be Nacra 17 or Viper.

There is no good reason to go the Nacra F16 over the Viper as the Viper already has proven boats out there.
H16 will almost certainly be rated lowest by every team there.
Tornado and Tiger may be percieved as too type casting on crew. Female driving, male sheeting, yes I know it can be done the other way around but we are talking about perception here. A worthwile test would be for each team to do two laps of a course (one each driving) on each boat and see if a pattern clearly develops as two which crew layout is faster. If there is a pattern in my head it would count against the class.

[Tornado-Cat]

1, 2, 6, rest after.

[Scarecrow]

thats cheating full list and 6 isn't an option as depending on definition each my be called the "best".

[Tcatman]

Ok now put the above list in your order of priority.

For the record I have no horse in this show. But I expect the result to be Nacra 17 or Viper.

There is no good reason to go the Nacra F16 over the Viper as the Viper already has proven boats out there.
H16 will almost certainly be rated lowest by every team there.
Tornado and Tiger may be percieved as too type casting on crew. Female driving, male sheeting, yes I know it can be done the other way around but we are talking about perception here. A worthwile test would be for each team to do two laps of a course (one each driving) on each boat and see if a pattern clearly develops as two which crew layout is faster. If there is a pattern in my head it would count against the class.

how about the sated ISAF factors?
Cost?
Gender equity.... crew, helm, class management?
Grow the Olympic movement?

[Scarecrow]

ok then the H16 will be in the next olympics.

[Tony-F18]

Maybe its just me but I feel like the T class is sending out a very confusing message with one boat costing €15k and another €25k.
I think that the Exploder guys make pretty decent boats, but its hard to judge since so far none of their models have had any decent sales.

[SimonN]

The best should definitely win but the best at what?

Are we looking for the fastest boat?
YesNo! Speed is really quite a minor consideration. The fastest boat doesn't mean the best racing and the differences we are talking about don't make for more spectator/TV. Most of the contenders are fast enough

A boat that will be exciting to watch in a range of wind strengths?
Yes if faster in wind above 7 knots. Trial should determine it.Of course it has to be as exciting to watch as possible, but close racing is as important to make it exciting as speed

A boat that can be sailed by most to 98% of its potential so tactics win out?
Olympic sailors willIt only has to be sailed by Olympic sailors and they will work out how to make tactics and boat handling be the deciding factor in any class

A boat that can carry a range of crew weights with no noticeable speed effect.
Bigger boats are better for that = Tornado and Nacra 17A range is important, but it has to be within the specified range or else they will miss the mark of trying to involve emerging countries that tend to have smaller sailors. Although some from western backgrounds (larger sailors) disagree, this is really important. We cannot continue to choose classes that are so clearly suited to western sailors

Yes we definitely need to pick the best boat.
It seems that we all agree on that, I hope ISAF will reflect that.I am sure they will pick the best boat for the job as they see it. the real problem is that there is a very vocal minority who believe that ISAF have it wrong as to what the spec should be, mainly because the spec chosen by ISAF doesn't suit the Tornado

[BeachbumII]

my 3c's:

A boat that can carry a range of crew weights with no noticeable speed effect
A boat that is really hard to sail fast so the most skilled win.
A boat that can be sailed so that the tactics win out
The fastest boat
A boat that will be exciting to watch in a range of wind strengths

[Tornado-Cat]

The best should definitely win but the best at what?

Are we looking for the fastest boat?
YesNo! Speed is really quite a minor consideration. The fastest boat doesn't mean the best racing and the differences we are talking about don't make for more spectator/TV. Most of the contenders are fast enough
Nonsense. If speed is a minor consideration, why don't you take optimist? Difference between slow cats and best ones are between 20 to 30 % which is significative.


A boat that will be exciting to watch in a range of wind strengths?
Yes if faster in wind above 7 knots. Trial should determine it.Of course it has to be as exciting to watch as possible, but close racing is as important to make it exciting as speed
New nonsense, you know very well that the AC is extending AC45 wings in order to make it faster and more watchable during light wind races. Coming from you it's clueless or trollish.

A boat that can be sailed by most to 98% of its potential so tactics win out?
Olympic sailors willIt only has to be sailed by Olympic sailors and they will work out how to make tactics and boat handling be the deciding factor in any class
So What ?

A boat that can carry a range of crew weights with no noticeable speed effect.
Bigger boats are better for that = Tornado and Nacra 17A range is important, but it has to be within the specified range or else they will miss the mark of trying to involve emerging countries that tend to have smaller sailors. Although some from western backgrounds (larger sailors) disagree, this is really important. We cannot continue to choose classes that are so clearly suited to western sailors
You come back with your fantasy. Western sailors constitute most of the racers, do you want to eliminate them in order to attract vaporware ? more you assumption ridicule, chinese are great basket players, Japonese great Judokas and they could not fit in the limits you propose. Another nonsense.


Yes we definitely need to pick the best boat.
It seems that we all agree on that, I hope ISAF will reflect that.I am sure they will pick the best boat for the job as they see it. the real problem is that there is a very vocal minority who believe that ISAF have it wrong as to what the spec should be, mainly because the spec chosen by ISAF doesn't suit the Tornado
I think you are mainly willing to promote a F16 more than having a rational conversation

[Tony-F18]

TC: The Tornado class needs more people like you.

[Scarecrow]

TC: The Tornado class needs more people like you.

Passion is great, however when it is blind that is just sad. Having spent time on Tornados I lovethem, but unfortunely the sun has set on the class's Olympic period. Possibly they'll get another shot for 2020 as the men's catamaran.

[Tornado-Cat]

TC: The Tornado class needs more people like you.

Passion is great, however when it is blind that is just sad. Having spent time on Tornados I lovethem, but unfortunely the sun has set on the class's Olympic period. Possibly they'll get another shot for 2020 as the men's catamaran.

Scarecrow,

First : I am for the best boat on the water, whatever the Tornado, the Nacra 17 or whatever. The criteria should be based on the races with different conditions.

Second and more important: Isaf has to have a clear and transparent procedure with criteria and open score, unless they want to send shit all over again.

The beginning is encouraging but not be a convenient umbrella.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

I suspect ISAF can (and will) do as they please. In any case, if they are concerned about getting the largest number of entrants home build would be the way to go.

There will never be a home build class in the olympics. It is an absolute guarantee that there will be both cheating and stupidly high development costs.

There was (Tornado) but may not see again.

[Scarecrow]

Didn't Chris Timms and Rex Sellers (hope that's spelt right) build at least one of their medal winning tornados? Of course Timms was no home builder.

[Tony-F18]

From ISAF's FB page:
ISAF Connect to Sailing
"With the spotlight on the 2016 Equipment Evaluations here in Santander we thought we’d take you back
to 1967 and the Isle of Sheppy, Kent, Great Britain where the IYRU A & B Catamaran trials took place.
View some of the footage below."


My favorite part is at 1:40 where the guy gets stuck on one of the marks

[SimonN]

It seems that we all agree on that, I hope ISAF will reflect that.I am sure they will pick the best boat for the job as they see it. the real problem is that there is a very vocal minority who believe that ISAF have it wrong as to what the spec should be, mainly because the spec chosen by ISAF doesn't suit the Tornado
I think you are mainly willing to promote a F16 more than having a rational conversation

This is exactly the sort if twisted logic you keep trying to use. I have no interest in promoting the F16 at all. Why would I and how could you ever get that impression. If you think that my support of the weight bands that ISAF has specified is anything to do with one particular candidate, it is further evidence that it is you who is not interested in proper debate but simplt premoting the Tornado. It is time you got usewd to the idea that the Tornado is the boat that least fits the requirements and that with the exception of the H16, all the other contenders are more suitable. As far as i am concerned, i don't actually have a view as to which boat is the right one because I haven't sailed most of the boats involved. I do know that, by way of example, the Viper is a far better boat than you believe it to be, both in terms of its speed and the excitement sailing it. I think the Nacra 17 looks very interesting as well and on paper, might be the most suitable boat. I would probably choose the Viper over the F18's because it is as fast, probably a bit livelier and it suits the weight range better.

Having said all of that, I remain confident of 3 things. First, the right boat will be chosen. Second, it will not be the Tornado and third, the Tornado brigade will continue to scream like pathetic little school kids who have had their favorite toy taken away from them.

[Emmessee]

Some great footage there for the time.

Excellent.

From ISAF's FB page:
ISAF Connect to Sailing
"With the spotlight on the 2016 Equipment Evaluations here in Santander we thought we'd take you back
to 1967 and the Isle of Sheppy, Kent, Great Britain where the IYRU A & B Catamaran trials took place.
View some of the footage below."


My favorite part is at 1:40 where the guy gets stuck on one of the marks

[Boatworks]

Didn't Chris Timms and Rex Sellers (hope that's spelt right) build at least one of their medal winning tornados? Of course Timms was no home builder.

No, IIRC Timmsy built a boat in time for Pusan but it wasn't used in the regatta itself. From memory they used a Reg White boat in the Games. It was a hell of a windy and rough event. The home built boat was burnt in a factory fire later along with a couple of others - maybe also the actual Pusan boat too.

[TornadoCAN99]

Does anyone have the skinny on the Exploder build T? Were they not the company working on a different type of beam-folding system?

[Tornado-Cat]

Haters gonna hate...

[Tornado-Cat]

Does anyone have the skinny on the Exploder build T? Were they not the company working on a different type of beam-folding system?

Roland Gaebler about the two Tornado : "One is Marstrom (Sweden) with Nomex Core in prepreg/epoxi in Autoclave, the highest standard of boatbuilding in the World. The blue boat we present is 11 years old!!! The Exploder (Poland) is made like the AHPC and Nacra in Epoxi with Airex Core. Also the Exploder has a simple snuffer with a bag and the Marstrom a carbon tube.... also we have no dealer inside the game.... the benefit goes direct to the sailors!"

[Hobie]

From ISAF's FB page:
ISAF Connect to Sailing
"With the spotlight on the 2016 Equipment Evaluations here in Santander we thought we’d take you back
to 1967 and the Isle of Sheppy, Kent, Great Britain where the IYRU A & B Catamaran trials took place.
View some of the footage below."


My favorite part is at 1:40 where the guy gets stuck on one of the marks

That's Front Page worthy!

[pacice]

Didn't Chris Timms and Rex Sellers (hope that's spelt right) build at least one of their medal winning tornados? Of course Timms was no home builder.

Chris Timms built several of his Tornadoes, but most were lost in a factory fire at his business, thus ending his Olympic bid.
One of the last remaining Timm's built Tornado is now sailing at the Tauranga Yacht Club in New Zealand, The Tauranga Yacht Club is also currently the home of Rex Sellers and Chris Timms 1984 Gold Medal winning Tornado.

[pitchpoledave]

Does anyone have the skinny on the Exploder build T? Were they not the company working on a different type of beam-folding system?

Roland Gaebler about the two Tornado : "One is Marstrom (Sweden) with Nomex Core in prepreg/epoxi in Autoclave, the highest standard of boatbuilding in the World. The blue boat we present is 11 years old!!! The Exploder (Poland) is made like the AHPC and Nacra in Epoxi with Airex Core. Also the Exploder has a simple snuffer with a bag and the Marstrom a carbon tube.... also we have no dealer inside the game.... the benefit goes direct to the sailors!"

No dealers? so no support in other words.. good plan.

[Tornado-Cat]

Does anyone have the skinny on the Exploder build T? Were they not the company working on a different type of beam-folding system?

Roland Gaebler about the two Tornado : "One is Marstrom (Sweden) with Nomex Core in prepreg/epoxi in Autoclave, the highest standard of boatbuilding in the World. The blue boat we present is 11 years old!!! The Exploder (Poland) is made like the AHPC and Nacra in Epoxi with Airex Core. Also the Exploder has a simple snuffer with a bag and the Marstrom a carbon tube.... also we have no dealer inside the game.... the benefit goes direct to the sailors!"

No dealers? so no support in other words.. good plan.

Jeeeeeeeeeezz, are you serious ?
How many times did you need a dealer in your life ? when I need something I give a call or send a mail to Marstrom and receive the piece within a few days.
For the sails you have sailmakers.

[Tornado-Cat]

Santander. Nahid, Roland, Goran, Sarah

[SimonN]

What I find unbelievable about the Tornado crowd is how they contyradict everything they say and propose. They are so desparate to get back into the olympics they are trying to be all things and offer every option.

They now say they are a strict one design. They say there is lots of supply of boats because second hand boats last so long, yet many of those second hand boats would either need serious money spending on them to make them comply with the new o/d or else they are too different to comply. The party line is that T's are cheap because they last so long (which they do) but in case you think they are too expensive, we can make a cheaper boat which would be to a different spec to the existing boats and won't last anywhere near as long. In making the cheaper boat, all existing boats will be useless as a supply of boats as they won't comply and the overall costs of campaigning a T will rise as you will need to replace the boats more often.

Go figure

[Scarecrow]

Scary isn't it. Shot gun marketing; tell people what they want to hear for every question regardless of whether in conflicts with the last answer or not. In most cases it usually backfires because people don't like being treated like idiots.

[macca]

I think its pretty simple to understand, The T class is giving ISAF two options:-

1. If they want a low cost of entry then ISAF can pick the foam epoxy boat and off they go.

2. If ISAF want the better quality/longer lasting then there is the Nomex/prepreg boat.

And as a bonus the both fit the current Tornado class rules, so that gives instant access to boats around the world (except for taiwan and India but they have nothing else from the trails apart from the H16 either..)

it could also be a solution that the current class boats are accepted for the next 2-3 years and then for Olympic events it becomes one of those options only. its a pretty nice solution really.

[narecet]

I think it would be hard to question that BOTH the pro-Tornado and anti-Tornado groups are reaching at times, and will say anything.

The objection to ISAF being presented with these options to me falls into the "will say anything" category.

[SimonN]

I think its pretty simple to understand, The T class is giving ISAF two options:-

1. If they want a low cost of entry then ISAF can pick the foam epoxy boat and off they go.

2. If ISAF want the better quality/longer lasting then there is the Nomex/prepreg boat.

And as a bonus the both fit the current Tornado class rules, so that gives instant access to boats around the world (except for taiwan and India but they have nothing else from the trails apart from the H16 either..)

it could also be a solution that the current class boats are accepted for the next 2-3 years and then for Olympic events it becomes one of those options only. its a pretty nice solution really.

Sorry Macca, but that really doesn't stack up.

First, if you allow "open" Tornados for the first 2-3 years, that means that any team that is trying to get to the games has to buy an up to date, all the latest gear, state of the art boat which could well be of no use after that 2-3 year period. They also have to buy at least one of whatever the O/D boat is because they will need to train and tune that as well.

Second, if they choose the low cost of entry boat, their whole campaign that says T's are cheap because they last goes out the window. However, by even offering the cheap alternative, the T's are admitting that the high cost of a top boat is an issue.

This isn't meant to be an attack on the boats but the people who are running the campaign seem to have missed basic marketing school. Each offering seems to contradict the other and highlights the weaknesses of each approach. I believe that the reason for this is that the T is not the right boat for the slot they are trying to fill and therefore, some people involved in the class are doing all they can to make it seem like a square peg can fit in a round hole. If this was a mens cat trial, there is no doubt in my mind that the current Tornado o/d, built by Marstrom, would be the right answer. It might even still be the right answer in another 4 years time when we all hope there will be mens and womens cat classes- in fact, if it isn't, it shouldn't even be considered now!

[macca]

I think the reason for the multiple options offered by the Tornado class is simply that ISAF have been very ambiguous with the requirements. So the T class simply gives them both options and lets ISAF decide what they want, which as we all know is like asking an Alzheimer's patient what they had for breakfast!

Oh, by the way I have heard feedback from several independent sources (not class or manufacturer related) that the sailor reports have been consistent in claiming the 16ft boats are too small and not challenging enough.

[narecet]

So, I really don't know how you are reasoning this, but as guesswork: For example, do you think it unreasonable, impractical, or something else that many sailors might choose to train on a cheaper boat? Even if -- if, which isn't decided -- actual Olympic competition would be in the more expensive boat?

Are you of the opinion that skills couldn't be properly built on the Exploder up to say a year out if even that long from the Olympics, if the Marstrom were to be the actual competition boat? That would seem a peculiar theory to me.

There was all this talk about how 3rd World Countries have the entry barrier of needing to buy fleets: suddenly this is irrelevant? Or a fleet of Exploders couldn't get the job done if -- if -- the Marstrom were picked to be the model of Tornado used in the Olympics?

seems to me like you're arguing against ANYTHING you think you can argue against, on this one rather than this being a legit objection.

[sail7seas]

Oh, by the way I have heard feedback from several independent sources (not class or manufacturer related) that the sailor reports
have been consistent in claiming the 16ft boats are too small and not challenging enough.

I find a 8'6 beam cat more challenging to sail than a 10' beam Tornado in winds over 25.
The 10' beam is simply more seaworthy in a blow, and easier/safer to sail, simply a Ferrari vs Chevy.
And iin a sea state, say 3m (10') waves the Tornado is much easier to fly a hull over the crest, then a 8'6 beam
Then again, they usually cancel the race when the wind and sea state gets that high.

[Gav Parker]

IOh, by the way I have heard feedback from several independent sources (not class or manufacturer related) that the sailor reports have been consistent in claiming the 16ft boats are too small and not challenging enough.

.....maybe someone should have put in an up to date 18 footer that could have fitted both olympic criteria with a carbon mast and F18 criteria with an ali mast...

[samc99us]

So, I really don't know how you are reasoning this, but as guesswork: For example, do you think it unreasonable, impractical, or something else that many sailors might choose to train on a cheaper boat? Even if -- if, which isn't decided -- actual Olympic competition would be in the more expensive boat?

Are you of the opinion that skills couldn't be properly built on the Exploder up to say a year out if even that long from the Olympics, if the Marstrom were to be the actual competition boat? That would seem a peculiar theory to me.

There was all this talk about how 3rd World Countries have the entry barrier of needing to buy fleets: suddenly this is irrelevant? Or a fleet of Exploders couldn't get the job done if -- if -- the Marstrom were picked to be the model of Tornado used in the Olympics?

seems to me like you're arguing against ANYTHING you think you can argue against, on this one rather than this being a legit objection.

A year away from the Olympics you aren't building up skills, you are competing for the opportunity to sail in the Olympics...

[cms]

Too small and not challenging enough??? Lucky not many Laser or Moth sailors read this forum? What is not challenging enough about making your boat go faster round the course than the others? All the boats are exciting and whilst personally I feel the Hobie 16 is too far behind the times, even it has its support.

Those who are against the mixed crew will probably and naturally want F18 power at least, but hey, mixed is what we have for now, and the weight range and target crew physique suggests to me that the 16 and 17 footers can do the job?

[Tcatman]

IOh, by the way I have heard feedback from several independent sources (not class or manufacturer related) that the sailor reports have been consistent in claiming the 16ft boats are too small and not challenging enough.

.....maybe someone should have put in an up to date 18 footer that could have fitted both olympic criteria with a carbon mast and F18 criteria with an ali mast...

Well... when you get the majority of sailors from Europe and North America and Australia... sailing Olympic (tornado) or F18 Pro Am.... do you think they are going to like a smaller boat??? When you take teams of sailors who fit a 340 lbs optimal crew for F18's... do you think they are going to like the smaller boats?

Why do you think Hobie corp.. spent the money to put the Hobie 16 with spin into the trial.... Do you truly believe they thought it would win a popularity contest for best boat on the water? That the sailors were going to discover new joys in sailing the Hobie 16.... I don't think they are stupid... so...

[Gav Parker]

IOh, by the way I have heard feedback from several independent sources (not class or manufacturer related) that the sailor reports have been consistent in claiming the 16ft boats are too small and not challenging enough.

.....maybe someone should have put in an up to date 18 footer that could have fitted both olympic criteria with a carbon mast and F18 criteria with an ali mast...

Well... when you get the majority of sailors from Europe and North America and Australia... sailing Olympic (tornado) or F18 Pro Am.... do you think they are going to like a smaller boat??? When you take teams of sailors who fit a 340 lbs optimal crew for F18's... do you think they are going to like the smaller boats?

Why do you think Hobie corp.. spent the money to put the Hobie 16 with spin into the trial.... Do you truly believe they thought it would win a popularity contest for best boat on the water? That the sailors were going to discover new joys in sailing the Hobie 16.... I don't think they are stupid... so...

If you're implying the Tiger's going to get the guernsey then I think they've been trumped by the Nacra 17C. Tiger isn't looking good at any level - either performance or universality so should miss out. I've owned one and it's a beast to sail well - which I guess is a good thing for world class sailors. But then world class sailors are going to sail the easiest or the hardest boats to trim better than anyone else so it doesn't matter what type of boat it is.

Still, if I was an olympic sailor it would be cool to be able to sail in a massive fleet (F18) with a very similar boat to the olympic class. It could be very lonely out there in olympic cat land if the Nacra F17C is chosen I think.

So I've just contradicted myself - I think it's part of TC's master plan for world domination....

[narecet]

So, I really don't know how you are reasoning this, but as guesswork: For example, do you think it unreasonable, impractical, or something else that many sailors might choose to train on a cheaper boat? Even if -- if, which isn't decided -- actual Olympic competition would be in the more expensive boat?

Are you of the opinion that skills couldn't be properly built on the Exploder up to say a year out if even that long from the Olympics, if the Marstrom were to be the actual competition boat? That would seem a peculiar theory to me.

There was all this talk about how 3rd World Countries have the entry barrier of needing to buy fleets: suddenly this is irrelevant? Or a fleet of Exploders couldn't get the job done if -- if -- the Marstrom were picked to be the model of Tornado used in the Olympics?

seems to me like you're arguing against ANYTHING you think you can argue against, on this one rather than this being a legit objection.

A year away from the Olympics you aren't building up skills, you are competing for the opportunity to sail in the Olympics...

Well of course I didn't think there was a real building skills issue here... but also do we really think that the speed difference between a new Exploder and the Marstrom is going to be enough to at all likely to lose out competition to get into the Olympics either? And if the Marstrom is accepted, after all anyone who is worried about that slight possible difference (probably much less than difference between sailors, yes?) can buy the Marstrom, so where is the problem with having a choice?

Somehow it's a disadvantage or no advantage whatsoever to have a cheaper boat also available for training, competitions before the Olympics if desired, and fleets?

I think not, and it seems to me anyone who is attacking that option being presented is just out to attack. Personal opinion. It also sure doesn't go with the "fleet cost for developing nations" argument that at least a person or two -- I don't recall if you did, and I'm not worried about it -- was previously claiming as being critically important.

Lastly: Supposedly it's always bad business and bad marketing, when it's not clear exactly what the other party wants, to have choices at different price points? Where could this generalization, this supposed truth have come from?

Or is not truth, but just being in attack-by-any-means mode.

[samc99us]

I really don't care what boat gets selected for the Olympics. If I have the time and crew/skipper, I will sail whatever, yes even the Hobie 16. I think offering 2 boats at different price points has some viability, but likely won't make much difference to fleet building or not. Anyone who looks at a new boat price and says "ah, that is all I need to fork over to play the game", clearly hasn't played the game at any sort of high level. Competitive people will always try to find any advantage in the equipment they are using-Olympians go to the level of testing masts at the factory to verify bend qualities, and hand-selecting the stiffest hulls out of a production batch of boats. In this case, the Marstrom holds better value than the Exploder as you can use the same boat for multiple Olympics and not be concerned that the structural stiffness of your platform. Will a new Exploder compete against a new Marstrom, most likely, but 1 year down the line who knows how the Exploder has held up, whilest the Marstrom is a Marstrom.

[F-18 5150]

Day 7: From Brett's Twitter -
"After 3 wins in big seas and 18knots it finally took a couple of racing team men to beat the mixed VIPER...only by 4 second though"

They had their presentation to give at 5:00 pm today, so expect a more complete report on Day 7 after that.

[Presuming Ed]

[pacice]

The price of the boat is a small part of the campaign.
Craig Monk of New Zealand is spending over $1 Million on his star campaign.

[pitchpoledave]

Does anyone have the skinny on the Exploder build T? Were they not the company working on a different type of beam-folding system?

Roland Gaebler about the two Tornado : "One is Marstrom (Sweden) with Nomex Core in prepreg/epoxi in Autoclave, the highest standard of boatbuilding in the World. The blue boat we present is 11 years old!!! The Exploder (Poland) is made like the AHPC and Nacra in Epoxi with Airex Core. Also the Exploder has a simple snuffer with a bag and the Marstrom a carbon tube.... also we have no dealer inside the game.... the benefit goes direct to the sailors!"

No dealers? so no support in other words.. good plan.

Jeeeeeeeeeezz, are you serious ?
How many times did you need a dealer in your life ? when I need something I give a call or send a mail to Marstrom and receive the piece within a few days.
For the sails you have sailmakers.

Yes quite serious. Try shipping a mast around the world on short notice and see what it costs you. It is better to have a global dealer network that stocks parts so you can get them quick and without a lot of shipping hassle.

[macca]

Most Olympic campaigns will have spare masts and major components on or in their trailer, the situation exists for the 470's, Finn, Star and Elliot 6M and they go perfectly fine without a dealer network.

[narecet]

I really don't care what boat gets selected for the Olympics. If I have the time and crew/skipper, I will sail whatever, yes even the Hobie 16. I think offering 2 boats at different price points has some viability, but likely won't make much difference to fleet building or not. Anyone who looks at a new boat price and says "ah, that is all I need to fork over to play the game", clearly hasn't played the game at any sort of high level.

I really don't care what boat gets selected for the Olympics. If I have the time and crew/skipper, I will sail whatever, yes even the Hobie 16. I think offering 2 boats at different price points has some viability, but likely won't make much difference to fleet building or not. Anyone who looks at a new boat price and says "ah, that is all I need to fork over to play the game", clearly hasn't played the game at any sort of high level. Competitive people will always try to find any advantage in the equipment they are using-Olympians go to the level of testing masts at the factory to verify bend qualities, and hand-selecting the stiffest hulls out of a production batch of boats. In this case, the Marstrom holds better value than the Exploder as you can use the same boat for multiple Olympics and not be concerned that the structural stiffness of your platform. Will a new Exploder compete against a new Marstrom, most likely, but 1 year down the line who knows how the Exploder has held up, whilest the Marstrom is a Marstrom.

Agreed and agreed, but some pages back, some were going on and on about how critical low price was and therefore the Tornado was out because developing nations couldn't buy fleets, and they had it that lesser durability of cheaper boats wasn't a real issue. Now that there's an inexpensive Tornado option, suddenly that's all by the wayside...

[F-18 5150]

From one point of view


Very interesting DAY 7.

Let us set the scene………..
Today the wind conditions were ~15 knots with some stronger gusts. The seas were quite lumpy. These conditions were the type of conditions that suit a little extra crew weight …. The “Hang on and enjoy the ride” conditions….

The Manufacturers were asked to put their own crews on one of the boats, and the test sailors were placed on the other boat. ISAF also asked the Manufacturers to provide crews within the weight range (120 -140 kgs).

We had Carolijn & Jason Waterhouse – They are probably around 135 kgs – and they literally blitzed the fleet…. They had a series of short, 2 lap races and Carolijn and Jason finished 1st or 2nd in EVERY RACE…. The other Viper with the inexperience crew was never far behind them.

Some of the manufacturers found it difficult to crew their boats within the weight range. Most manufacturers did not include a female representative in their team.

NACRA could not crew their boats within the weight range. They put Gunnar & a F18 crew on board their NACRA 17 (probably ~150kgs +). This was the only boat that beat the mighty VIPER in a couple of the races.

The Tornado with the lighter crew weight struggled...

At the end of the day it was ALL VIPER!!!!!!!!

After the racing, Roland Gaebler (Tornado) called all the manufacturers and the Evaluation committee together and voiced his objection to the weight range.



From another




ISAF Trials..... offshore sailing again.... real waves.... absolute great sailing.... but they not allowed me to sail. Also Fernando Leon (Gold Medal 1996 for Spain) and a Girl...... because we were all to heavy! Watch what will happen in the next days..... its time to present the real facts.

[samc99us]

Day 7: From Brett's Twitter -
"After 3 wins in big seas and 18knots it finally took a couple of racing team men to beat the mixed VIPER...only by 4 second though"

They had their presentation to give at 5:00 pm today, so expect a more complete report on Day 7 after that.

I find it tough to believe the F17 wasn't a bigger threat?

[Hatin' life]

New boat? Not quite dialed in?

[Tornado-Cat]

Yesterday, from RG: "ISAF Trials.... great racing offshore in 8-10knot seabreeze today....we did 5 practice races (2 laps each) and the Tornado won them all......far ahead. Today we had the F16 Worldchampion Ceeline Van Dooren and the F18 Worldchampion Thijs Visser on Gorans "Blue Metallica" Tornado and they sailed very well with it...."

Today they organize a very small race and prevent regular skippers to sail. Is it customized to make one boat win ?

Seems that, up to now, the Tornado and the Nacra 17 have been winning everything,...when they can race with their crew.

[NacramanUK]

From one point of view


Very interesting DAY 7.

Let us set the scene………..
Today the wind conditions were ~15 knots with some stronger gusts. The seas were quite lumpy. These conditions were the type of conditions that suit a little extra crew weight …. The "Hang on and enjoy the ride" conditions….

The Manufacturers were asked to put their own crews on one of the boats, and the test sailors were placed on the other boat. ISAF also asked the Manufacturers to provide crews within the weight range (120 -140 kgs).

We had Carolijn & Jason Waterhouse – They are probably around 135 kgs – and they literally blitzed the fleet…. They had a series of short, 2 lap races and Carolijn and Jason finished 1st or 2nd in EVERY RACE…. The other Viper with the inexperience crew was never far behind them.

Some of the manufacturers found it difficult to crew their boats within the weight range. Most manufacturers did not include a female representative in their team.

NACRA could not crew their boats within the weight range. They put Gunnar & a F18 crew on board their NACRA 17 (probably ~150kgs +). This was the only boat that beat the mighty VIPER in a couple of the races.

The Tornado with the lighter crew weight struggled...

At the end of the day it was ALL VIPER!!!!!!!!

After the racing, Roland Gaebler (Tornado) called all the manufacturers and the Evaluation committee together and voiced his objection to the weight range.



From another




ISAF Trials..... offshore sailing again.... real waves.... absolute great sailing.... but they not allowed me to sail. Also Fernando Leon (Gold Medal 1996 for Spain) and a Girl...... because we were all to heavy! Watch what will happen in the next days..... its time to present the real facts.

I think if you check the facts Nacra didn't have the crew options to put a "Nacra team" out there at 120kg to 140 kg weight range as they weren't aware of this as being part of the evaluation trials and for no other reason...

[NacramanUK]

From one point of view


Very interesting DAY 7.

Let us set the scene………..
Today the wind conditions were ~15 knots with some stronger gusts. The seas were quite lumpy. These conditions were the type of conditions that suit a little extra crew weight …. The "Hang on and enjoy the ride" conditions….

The Manufacturers were asked to put their own crews on one of the boats, and the test sailors were placed on the other boat. ISAF also asked the Manufacturers to provide crews within the weight range (120 -140 kgs).

We had Carolijn & Jason Waterhouse – They are probably around 135 kgs – and they literally blitzed the fleet…. They had a series of short, 2 lap races and Carolijn and Jason finished 1st or 2nd in EVERY RACE…. The other Viper with the inexperience crew was never far behind them.

Some of the manufacturers found it difficult to crew their boats within the weight range. Most manufacturers did not include a female representative in their team.

NACRA could not crew their boats within the weight range. They put Gunnar & a F18 crew on board their NACRA 17 (probably ~150kgs +). This was the only boat that beat the mighty VIPER in a couple of the races.

The Tornado with the lighter crew weight struggled...

At the end of the day it was ALL VIPER!!!!!!!!

After the racing, Roland Gaebler (Tornado) called all the manufacturers and the Evaluation committee together and voiced his objection to the weight range.



From another




ISAF Trials..... offshore sailing again.... real waves.... absolute great sailing.... but they not allowed me to sail. Also Fernando Leon (Gold Medal 1996 for Spain) and a Girl...... because we were all to heavy! Watch what will happen in the next days..... its time to present the real facts.

Also 1st OR 2nd from an Olympic quality team doesn't equate as blitzing the fleet.....

Or being all Viper...

[F-18 5150]

NacraMan Uk

I'm just passing on what I get posted and put it in one place. Haven't seen anything from Nacra yet. I have no skin in this game, and only looking to see what is selected. If you have news from Nacra please post it here.

[Horse]

I think if you check the facts Nacra didn't have the crew options to put a Nacra team out there at 120kg to 140 kg weight range as they weren't aware of this as being part of the evaluation trials and for no other reason...

It is interesting that only one presenter had a team that included a world class sailor/Olympian that could make the weight limit and mixed team criteria. Either the presenters didn't read what ISAF was going to allow them to do. Or one team knew and interestingly that one team has a person who is on the ISAF Equipment and Events Committee.

If ISAF did indeed did make this unknown to the presenters and asked only at the trials for the mixed team at the 120-140 weight range and only one team could produce this team then ISAF should not have gone ahead with this exercise. If it was known before the trails that they were going to have to put a mixed team at 120-140 and they didn't bring the people that is their dumb fault.

[NacramanUK]

NacraMan Uk

I'm just passing on what I get posted and put it in one place. Haven't seen anything from Nacra yet. I have no skin in this game, and only looking to see what is selected. If you have news from Nacra please post it here.

Hi F-18 5150, apologies if it sounds like I'm having a go at you as that was not intended. It was a complex day on the water today and from my understanding, having briefly spoken to the Nacra team, the AHPC report doesn't really tell the full story. I will endeavour to get a full report from the Nacra team in the morning and post here in due course.

[NacramanUK]

I think if you check the facts Nacra didn't have the crew options to put a Nacra team out there at 120kg to 140 kg weight range as they weren't aware of this as being part of the evaluation trials and for no other reason...

It is interesting that only one presenter had a team that included a world class sailor/Olympian that could make the weight limit and mixed team criteria. Either the presenters didn't read what ISAF was going to allow them to do. Or one team knew and interestingly that one team has a person who is on the ISAF Equipment and Events Committee.

If ISAF did indeed did make this unknown to the presenters and asked only at the trials for the mixed team at the 120-140 weight range and only one team could produce this team then ISAF should not have gone ahead with this exercise. If it was known before the trails that they were going to have to put a mixed team at 120-140 and they didn't bring the people that is their dumb fault.

From my understanding Nacra where not informed of this requirement from there team.....

[Horse]

I think if you check the facts Nacra didn't have the crew options to put a Nacra team out there at 120kg to 140 kg weight range as they weren't aware of this as being part of the evaluation trials and for no other reason...

It is interesting that only one presenter had a team that included a world class sailor/Olympian that could make the weight limit and mixed team criteria. Either the presenters didn't read what ISAF was going to allow them to do. Or one team knew and interestingly that one team has a person who is on the ISAF Equipment and Events Committee.

If ISAF did indeed did make this unknown to the presenters and asked only at the trials for the mixed team at the 120-140 weight range and only one team could produce this team then ISAF should not have gone ahead with this exercise. If it was known before the trails that they were going to have to put a mixed team at 120-140 and they didn't bring the people that is their dumb fault.

From my understanding Nacra where not informed of this requirement from there team.....

Interesting then if it was not made clear then you would have to ask how fair are the evaluation trials or is ISAF trying to justify just one boat?

[Helen]

NacramanUK & Horse

Firstly, one of the criteria for this Olympic Boat is that the weight range IS between 120 - 140 kgs. You may not agree with it, but that has been long specified.

Another of the other criteria is MIXED..... Again, you may not agree with it but that

Each boat was allowed to bring a 4 person team (Two from the manufacturing & two sailors)....

You do not have to be a genius to realise that the boats would probably be tested taking these two criteria into consideration.... So wouldn't you send the appropriate team!!

AHPC were NEVER informed of the requirements for testing..... We just used our commonsense!!!

Also, NACRA have 2 boats at the trials. This means that they could send 8 representatives. What was NACRA thinking when they decided to send two all male teams (ie 8 men!)?? ...

[Horse]

NacramanUK & Horse

Firstly, one of the criteria for this Olympic Boat is that the weight range IS between 120 - 140 kgs. You may not agree with it, but that has been long specified.

Another of the other criteria is MIXED..... Again, you may not agree with it but that

Each boat was allowed to bring a 4 person team (Two from the manufacturing & two sailors)....

You do not have to be a genius to realise that the boats would probably be tested taking these two criteria into consideration.... So wouldn't you send the appropriate team!!

AHPC were NEVER informed of the requirements for testing..... We just used our commonsense!!!

Also, NACRA have 2 boats at the trials. This means that they could send 8 representatives. What was NACRA thinking when they decided to send two all male teams (ie 8 men!)?? ...

I am not arguing with the criteria just where did it say that the presenters would be sailing and racing their own boats in the trials??? From the paperwork out there it seemed that MNA were sending teams to sail and evaluate the boats.

If it didn't say that presenters are going race the boats then of course they are not going to send a team.

[TornadoCAN99]

The Tornado with the lighter crew weight struggled...

Something doesn't sound right here. The T should be easily out pacing the other boats in 15+ knots if the team is dialed in. I've seen extreme-lightweight crews (two Asian-Americans) on the T up against the top ranked fleet members (last pre-olympic Miami OCR) that did quite well in moderate to high wind conditions.

Realize that focussing on boat performance in these "races" is kinda bogus. You've got highly skilled talent in some teams and much lesser-experienced junior talent on others.

[NacramanUK]

NacramanUK & Horse

Firstly, one of the criteria for this Olympic Boat is that the weight range IS between 120 - 140 kgs. You may not agree with it, but that has been long specified.

Another of the other criteria is MIXED..... Again, you may not agree with it but that

Each boat was allowed to bring a 4 person team (Two from the manufacturing & two sailors)....

You do not have to be a genius to realise that the boats would probably be tested taking these two criteria into consideration.... So wouldn't you send the appropriate team!!

AHPC were NEVER informed of the requirements for testing..... We just used our commonsense!!!

Also, NACRA have 2 boats at the trials. This means that they could send 8 representatives. What was NACRA thinking when they decided to send two all male teams (ie 8 men!)?? ...

Firstly can I say on a personal point of view I am fully in favour of the mixed team format (although I will probably get a pile of abuse for that statement!!) and although the weight designation is testing for many sailing nations that is how it is...

All I was trying to get across that the AHPC report perhaps didn't fully portray the reality of what actually happened on the water in terms of the teams who sailed the boats in terms of there experience sailing together and there combined weight (Clearly AHPC had all bases covered in that respect, and well done for having this unscheduled part of the trials covered).

No offence was intended just the opportunity to discuss the facts of what occurred today...

[Tornado-Cat]

NacramanUK & Horse

Firstly, one of the criteria for this Olympic Boat is that the weight range IS between 120 - 140 kgs. You may not agree with it, but that has been long specified.

AHPC were NEVER informed of the requirements for testing..... We just used our commonsense!!!

First, I think that today is a clear demonstration of what we said for a long time, 120-140 kg is going to eliminate most present high level sailors.
Second, I simply don't believe you, for APHC not being informed.
Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

[F-18 5150]

The Tornado with the lighter crew weight struggled...

Something doesn't sound right here. The T should be easily out pacing the other boats in 15+ knots if the team is dialed in. I've seen extreme-lightweight crews (two Asian-Americans) on the T up against the top ranked fleet members (last pre-olympic Miami OCR) that did quite well in moderate to high wind conditions.

Realize that focussing on boat performance in these "races" is kinda bogus. You've got highly skilled talent in some teams and much lesser-experienced junior talent on others.

Everything I'm posting is from a manufacturer represented at the trials. I am not there just getting updates from a few different places and sharing it here with everyone.

[Horse]

Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

The point I am trying to make is that all the presenters had top quality sailors
Tornado, Roland Gabler 2000 Olympic Bronze Medalist
Hobie, Fernando Leon 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
Spitfire, Yves Loday 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist
Naca, their Nacra sailors
Viper, Carolijn Bouwer, Olympic sailor

Yet only one team, Viper bought a mixed team of 120-140 KG. So either they knew they were sailing and racing or they others didn’t read the documents sent to them by ISAF.

If the presenters didn’t read and bring the sailors as requested by the documents they are dumb. If it was thrown at them at the trials then this evaluation is giving false readings. Also perhaps somebody inside viper knew they were sailing.

[Tornado-Cat]

Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

The point I am trying to make is that all the presenters had top quality sailors
Tornado, Roland Gabler 2000 Olympic Bronze Medalist
Hobie, Fernando Leon 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
Spitfire, Yves Loday 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist
Naca, their Nacra sailors
Viper, Carolijn Bouwer, Olympic sailor

Yet only one team, Viper bought a mixed team of 120-140 KG. So either they knew they were sailing and racing or they others didn't read the documents sent to them by ISAF.

If the presenters didn't read and bring the sailors as requested by the documents they are dumb. If it was thrown at them at the trials then this evaluation is giving false readings. Also perhaps somebody inside viper knew they were sailing.

Horse, I completely agree with you.
But it is not only about the weigth and the sailors, why a very short race, to test the boats ? or to eliminate the fast ones ?also, everybody know that flat hulls tack faster than V shape, and I don't know about the curved foils, are they penalized when tacking ?

I miss the 1967 trial that was much more genuine.

[I'moutahere]

Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

The point I am trying to make is that all the presenters had top quality sailors
Tornado, Roland Gabler 2000 Olympic Bronze Medalist
Hobie, Fernando Leon 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
Spitfire, Yves Loday 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist
Naca, their Nacra sailors
Viper, Carolijn Bouwer, Olympic sailor

Yet only one team, Viper bought a mixed team of 120-140 KG. So either they knew they were sailing and racing or they others didn’t read the documents sent to them by ISAF.

If the presenters didn’t read and bring the sailors as requested by the documents they are dumb. If it was thrown at them at the trials then this evaluation is giving false readings. Also perhaps somebody inside viper knew they were sailing.

I have been following this thread because I'm interested in a minor way in what will be chosen for the next Olympic cat.

Are you sure that only the Viper crew meet the standards required by ISAF? A male/female crew of 120-140kg?

If no other teams bothered to meet the ISAF specs, they must be just plain crazy...... EDIT.... unless they deliberately DON'T want their boat chosen. It's been done before.

[SimonN]

First, I think that today is a clear demonstration of what we said for a long time, 120-140 kg is going to eliminate most present high level sailors.

Look at who is there. It is almost all people from western countries that are predominently larger than people from emerging countries. Why is this? Because these countries can afford to send sailors to selection trials, where most emerging countries cannot.

Roland can cry as much as he likes, but what yesterday showed isn't that the weight limit is wrong, but that certain boats aren't suitable and in particular, T's are too big and too powerful for the target sailors. This should not come as any surprise to anybody who spent time around the olympic Tornado fleet. Unlike a class like the 470, the men sailing T's were "normal" sizes. the only competitive woman was Carolijn, who is well above the average size for a woman, and she needed to sail with a Finn sailor to be competitive! This whole notion that at olympic level that the T will give you a wide range of crew weights for a mixed class is crazy.

Second, I simply don't believe you, for APHC not being informed.

I cannot believe you think anybody needs to be informed.

Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. What isn't fair and transparent about this? As i said, the more the T is shown to be the wrong boat, the more the T sailors wil sound off. Is it any wonder that ISAF and others get so fed up of cat sailors. No sooner does one group do some good, but then the "old guard" come along and screw it all up.

[Horse]

I have been following this thread because I'm interested in a minor way in what will be chosen for the next Olympic cat.

Are you sure that only the Viper crew meet the standards required by ISAF? A male/female crew of 120-140kg?

If no other teams bothered to meet the ISAF specs, they must be just plain crazy...... EDIT.... unless they deliberately DON'T want their boat chosen. It's been done before.

Well if you had been following the thread you will see that Nacra, and Tornado didn't have the crew. If you read other sites it is clear Hobie and Spitfire didn't have the crews. So, yes confident in what is being stated.

I think the teams didn't bring the sailing team as they were either not told or didn't read the document. Strange only one team managed to have an Olympic sailor and top crew that were mixed and right weight. Maybe they are the only ones to read, but the question needs to be asked.

To say anybody would spend the amount of time and money to attend a trail and not want to be selected is stupid. I seriously doubt Nacra would have gone to the trouble of developing a n17 and then not want it selected.

[Red Dolphin]

1332544266[/url]' post='3641243']

1332542843[/url]' post='3641202']
NacramanUK & Horse

Firstly, one of the criteria for this Olympic Boat is that the weight range IS between 120 - 140 kgs. You may not agree with it, but that has been long specified.

AHPC were NEVER informed of the requirements for testing..... We just used our commonsense!!!

First, I think that today is a clear demonstration of what we said for a long time, 120-140 kg is going to eliminate most present high level sailors.
Second, I simply don't believe you, for APHC not being informed.
Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

No tornado at you moron.
First, the criteria is locked in, so like it or not that 120 -140 is the weight range. And it also has to be a mixed crew. Second, your the only person here that lacks credibility, so be careful who you attack.Last, the tornado has turned out to be not really that fast in comparison to the modern 16 and 17 footers. You constantly bleat on about the untouchable speed of the the T. And it turns out you don't know what your talking about.

[I'moutahere]

I have been following this thread because I'm interested in a minor way in what will be chosen for the next Olympic cat.

Are you sure that only the Viper crew meet the standards required by ISAF? A male/female crew of 120-140kg?

If no other teams bothered to meet the ISAF specs, they must be just plain crazy...... EDIT.... unless they deliberately DON'T want their boat chosen. It's been done before.

Well if you had been following the thread you will see that Nacra, and Tornado didn't have the crew. If you read other sites it is clear Hobie and Spitfire didn't have the crews. So, yes confident in what is being stated.

I think the teams didn't bring the sailing team as they were either not told or didn't read the document. Strange only one team managed to have an Olympic sailor and top crew that were mixed and right weight. Maybe they are the only ones to read, but the question needs to be asked.

To say anybody would spend the amount of time and money to attend a trail and not want to be selected is stupid. I seriously doubt Nacra would have gone to the trouble of developing a n17 and then not want it selected.

NOT STUPID. As i wrote - it HAS been done before. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Try selection trials for the Mens high performance that resulted in the 49er's selection. I14's did NOT want the class chosen for the Olympics.

So why do you think the various other boats would ignore the ISAF specs? Surely they are not so stupid as to not read the specs?

[Tcatman]

I think if you check the facts Nacra didn't have the crew options to put a Nacra team out there at 120kg to 140 kg weight range as they weren't aware of this as being part of the evaluation trials and for no other reason...

It is interesting that only one presenter had a team that included a world class sailor/Olympian that could make the weight limit and mixed team criteria. Either the presenters didn't read what ISAF was going to allow them to do. Or one team knew and interestingly that one team has a person who is on the ISAF Equipment and Events Committee.

If ISAF did indeed did make this unknown to the presenters and asked only at the trials for the mixed team at the 120-140 weight range and only one team could produce this team then ISAF should not have gone ahead with this exercise. If it was known before the trails that they were going to have to put a mixed team at 120-140 and they didn't bring the people that is their dumb fault.

What part of gender equity is confusing to these people... helm and sheet manged by male and female pilots in the weight range in standard conditions. Plus Class management... If you bring two dudes.... I think you are missing something important about the term MIXED! and or gender equity.

[Horse]

Second, I simply don't believe you, for APHC not being informed.

I cannot believe you think anybody needs to be informed.

Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. What isn't fair and transparent about this? As i said, the more the T is shown to be the wrong boat, the more the T sailors wil sound off. Is it any wonder that ISAF and others get so fed up of cat sailors. No sooner does one group do some good, but then the "old guard" come along and screw it all up.

Of course people have to know that they had to supply teams to race. This is not an argument (well not from me) about the criteria, whether I agree or disagree is immaterial. What is important is the trials must seem to fair and open. If only one team had a mixed team with the right weight, the questions is 'why was there only one team?' 'Did the other teams not read the requirements? Or did one team 'guess' they had to supply a team? Or were they given information not available to others? To say they don't need to be informed is totally wrong.

[Gav Parker]

Second, I simply don't believe you, for APHC not being informed.

I cannot believe you think anybody needs to be informed.

Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. What isn't fair and transparent about this? As i said, the more the T is shown to be the wrong boat, the more the T sailors wil sound off. Is it any wonder that ISAF and others get so fed up of cat sailors. No sooner does one group do some good, but then the "old guard" come along and screw it all up.

Of course people have to know that they had to supply teams to race. This is not an argument (well not from me) about the criteria, whether I agree or disagree is immaterial. What is important is the trials must seem to fair and open. If only one team had a mixed team with the right weight, the questions is 'why was there only one team?' 'Did the other teams not read the requirements? Or did one team 'guess' they had to supply a team? Or were they given information not available to others? To say they don't need to be informed is totally wrong.

There's no conspiracy here as much as you want to look for it. It's pretty simple - Brett Goodall is a shit hot crew who helps run AHPC. Caroljin sells AHPC boats in Europe so of course they're both going to be at the selection trials.

This partnership came together well before the Viper was considered for the Olympics, so it's just dumb luck.

In saying that - the manufacturers that didn't arrange for appropriate teams to be at the trials are just dumb.

[F-18 5150]

Send 2 boats and 2 teams. The boat will be sailed by a mixed male/female crew in the 120 to 140 kilo range. Now if I was sending 2 teams I would have sent a team that fit that criteria.

Sorry if your upset you couldn't play today because you didn't meet the required selection criteria then maybe next time you will read the criteria. Come on if you didn't see that coming what exactly were you looking at?

[Horse]

Send 2 boats and 2 teams. The boat will be sailed by a mixed male/female crew in the 120 to 140 kilo range. Now if I was sending 2 teams I would have sent a team that fit that criteria.

Sorry if your upset you couldn't play today because you didn't meet the required selection criteria then maybe next time you will read the criteria. Come on if you didn't see that coming what exactly were you looking at?

Sorry you are missing the point. It is not the selection criteria that is a problem. Where does it say that the PRESENTERS WIILL BRING A TEAM AND THAT TEAM WILL RACE THE BOAT AT THE EVALUATION TRAIL? Forget the criteria that was set and posted months ago and nothing can be done to change that. I am sure if it was clearer in the evaluation trial criteria then all presenters would have bought a top international team to race their boat. Or maybe it was not written just added on the day.

[F-18 5150]

So you think sending 2 men to demonstrate how a man and woman can sail the boat is right?
You think sending a 160 kg team to demonstrate how a max 140 kg team is right?

Are you trying to say that you thought the teams sent to present the boats wouldn't be asked to sail the boats?

Why not just send 2 boat techs and 2 engineers who don't sail.
Why send a sailing team if you didn't want to send one that fit the selection criteria?

[TornadoSail2016]

No tornado at you moron.
First, the criteria is locked in, so like it or not that 120 -140 is the weight range. And it also has to be a mixed crew. Second, your the only person here that lacks credibility, so be careful who you attack.Last, the tornado has turned out to be not really that fast in comparison to the modern 16 and 17 footers. You constantly bleat on about the untouchable speed of the the T. And it turns out you don't know what your talking about.

The only thing to say to this post is that a Tornado can easily be sailed within this weight range. It though is a boat that is difficult to handle if you have never sailed on one before and if you have never sailed it in this weight range. I have had a mixed crew for years and we sail at 136-140kg and have no issues in any conditions that you are allowed to race in. We do struggle a little above 22knts. but the Olympics do not start races in over 18knts and I believe cancel above 22knts. i do not have a dog in this fight and only really believe that the Hobie 16 is the wrong boat. I do think that it will come down to a choice between the Nacra 17, the Viper or the Nacra 16. I like the Spitfire as well, but have not heard anything about it during the trials. To say that the tornado is out beacuse it cannot be sailed within the weight range is wrong. There may be other factors that would rule it out or at least favor other platforms, but weight should not be an issue. If the Tornado were to be chosen as the platform, every Olympic class mixed team would quickly learn how to sail it within weight range and they would begin to tell you what a great boat it is. this will happen regardless of what boat is chosen.

[rule69]

To say that the tornado is out beacuse it cannot be sailed within the weight range is wrong.

I don't have any irons in this fire either. But, AFIK, the weight range is a design goal not a competition requirement. So, the question isn't can the T be sailed by a crew in the desired range so much as is it faster with that crew weight than it would be with some other crew weight?

[SimonN]

.........but the Olympics do not start races in over 18knts and I believe cancel above 22knts.

I would love to know where you got this little gem from. I think you will fond you ate mistaken

[Tornado-Cat]

First, I think that today is a clear demonstration of what we said for a long time, 120-140 kg is going to eliminate most present high level sailors.

Look at who is there. It is almost all people from western countries that are predominently larger than people from emerging countries. Why is this? Because these countries can afford to send sailors to selection trials, where most emerging countries cannot.

Roland can cry as much as he likes, but what yesterday showed isn't that the weight limit is wrong, but that certain boats aren't suitable and in particular, T's are too big and too powerful for the target sailors. This should not come as any surprise to anybody who spent time around the olympic Tornado fleet. Unlike a class like the 470, the men sailing T's were "normal" sizes. the only competitive woman was Carolijn, who is well above the average size for a woman, and she needed to sail with a Finn sailor to be competitive! This whole notion that at olympic level that the T will give you a wide range of crew weights for a mixed class is crazy.

Second, I simply don't believe you, for APHC not being informed.

I cannot believe you think anybody needs to be informed.

Last, I was hoping that Isaf would change and have a fair and transparent process, today is not very encouraging.

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. What isn't fair and transparent about this? As i said, the more the T is shown to be the wrong boat, the more the T sailors wil sound off. Is it any wonder that ISAF and others get so fed up of cat sailors. No sooner does one group do some good, but then the "old guard" come along and screw it all up.

Today, Isaf proved that:

- most present high level sailors will not be able to train for the Olympics. The replacement by asiatic countries is vaporware, and does not fit with emerging countries from africa and south america

- emerging countries will be even more handicapped than present teams by lack of high level women sailors, this is a kind of discrimination, not speaking of muslim countries.

- The Nacra 17 and the T were not handicapped by the target weight but by the lack of crew fitting the limits enforced by Isaf

- today was not a fair trial

- it is up to Isaf to organize a fair trial, not to the teams, and the minimum is a clear communication, mainly when we know that one same person was at Isaf , works for a manufacturer, and is part of the sailing crew.

You are wrong about the old guard, Nacra is a young guard and I love this boat. I don't know why, you always sided with Isaf wrong decisions, and spend your time blaming the sailors.

[TornadoSail2016]

.........but the Olympics do not start races in over 18knts and I believe cancel above 22knts.

I would love to know where you got this little gem from. I think you will fond you ate mistaken

SImonN,
I might be wrong, but the last OCR that I sailed in, those were the limits. I have not sailed in an OCR in quite a while, so it may have changed since then, but my recolation was that it was getting more stringent on the safety level then it used to be. I sailed an OCR in Marblehead in 1992 where they sent us out in 35-40 knt. winds. We had 80+ Tornados and the damage through both the Tornado fleet and the Star fleet was massive. SInce then they had put upper wind limits in place. I cannot believe that that have back-tracked since then. TTS

[HobieAnarchy]

.........but the Olympics do not start races in over 18knts and I believe cancel above 22knts.

I would love to know where you got this little gem from. I think you will fond you ate mistaken

SImonN,
I might be wrong, but the last OCR that I sailed in, those were the limits. I have not sailed in an OCR in quite a while, so it may have changed since then, but my recolation was that it was getting more stringent on the safety level then it used to be. I sailed an OCR in Marblehead in 1992 where they sent us out in 35-40 knt. winds. We had 80+ Tornados and the damage through both the Tornado fleet and the Star fleet was massive. SInce then they had put upper wind limits in place. I cannot believe that that have back-tracked since then. TTS

Those are Tornado class rules (Appendix C) and have nothing to do with the Olympics. At least for now.

[SimonN]

.........but the Olympics do not start races in over 18knts and I believe cancel above 22knts.

I would love to know where you got this little gem from. I think you will fond you ate mistaken

SImonN,
I might be wrong, but the last OCR that I sailed in, those were the limits. I have not sailed in an OCR in quite a while, so it may have changed since then, but my recolation was that it was getting more stringent on the safety level then it used to be. I sailed an OCR in Marblehead in 1992 where they sent us out in 35-40 knt. winds. We had 80+ Tornados and the damage through both the Tornado fleet and the Star fleet was massive. SInce then they had put upper wind limits in place. I cannot believe that that have back-tracked since then. TTS

Those are Tornado class rules (Appendix C) and have nothing to do with the Olympics. At least for now.

And the T rules have never said anything like that. The rule is that no race shall begin in less than 6 knots or more than 25 knots. There is a lower limit at which a started race is abandoned but, surprisingly, there is nothing about a top end limit once the race has started.

As for Olympic rules on when races can and cannot be held, there is no such thing. Some of the classes have limits in their rules which are stuck to at the olympics but most don't.