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2016 Olympic Multihull


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#1 jalani

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 10:06 PM

ISAF have published the specification for the 2016 Olympic Multihull:

ISAF request

Hobie 16 with spin anyone?

Discuss......................

#2 Presuming Ed

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 10:28 PM

Handy timing....

Posted Image


#3 Tcatman

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:59 PM

er.... Fail..

Needs a two part mast so that it fits into a 20 foot container... (oh and saves the owners from electrocuting themselves)


Hobie 16 with USA comptip and a spin! is the ONLY boat in production today that fits their criteria....

#4 cabsav

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:06 AM

Just out of interest does anybody genuinely know if a 2-part mast is feasible?

i know it has become popular in single handed monos, but does it work with the higher loads and wing shaped sections?

#5 Tcatman

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:14 AM

Just out of interest does anybody genuinely know if a 2-part mast is feasible?

i know it has become popular in single handed monos, but does it work with the higher loads and wing shaped sections?

I think Riba made two part masts for the Bim 18HT's that made it to the USA... That is from memory though... so I could be wrong... It was thought of as a good stiff mast.

#6 Hatin' life

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:25 AM

Hobie 16 with USA comptip and a spin! is the ONLY boat in production today that fits their criteria....


I'm going to fucking die of dehydration from vomiting if the H16 is chosen.

#7 samc99us

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:28 AM

Anything can be built that is stiff enough and light enough if you are willing to pay the engineers to design it and the manufacturer to build it!

The H16 is a great boat, no denying that, but it isn't a modern spin boat. I'd much rather see a F16/F18/F20 derivative than a retrofitted H16. Even the H16 doesn't really meet this criteria, the comptip doesn't easily come off and is a performance killer anyway. Really I think a one-design F16 or F18 w/ curved foils (not an existing production boat) makes a lot of sense. Don't use an existing production boat that kills the class, but design something that is similar enough to those boats that training in the main F16/F18 fleet will directly correlate to the Olympic platform. Just my 2 cents.

#8 SimonN

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:35 AM

It won't be an H16. It fails on too many scores and when it lines up against any modern cat of the same size, I cannot see how any sailor would vote for it. The only thing it has going for it is the numbers and ISAF is used to backing new classes so that won't be an issue.

I suspect it will be a one design F16. I am sure that all the big players will be able to produce a 2 piece mast without any problems. However, i suspect that requirement is the one least likely to influence the class chosen. My money would be on the C2, becaus ethere are enough around to "seed" the growth and because of who will be promoting it, assuming that Bundy can get some time off from Oracle Racing. And, of course, because it is well proven and succesful already.

#9 O30_OldSchool

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:36 AM

"it is desired that the sailors combined weight will be within the 120-140 kg range"

I guess that counts me out. 280 pounds for a combined crew weight? Does not really sound like a mixed gender boat to me.

#10 Foghorn77

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:42 AM

It won't be an H16. It fails on too many scores and when it lines up against any modern cat of the same size, I cannot see how any sailor would vote for it. The only thing it has going for it is the numbers and ISAF is used to backing new classes so that won't be an issue.

I suspect it will be a one design F16. I am sure that all the big players will be able to produce a 2 piece mast without any problems. However, i suspect that requirement is the one least likely to influence the class chosen. My money would be on the C2, becaus ethere are enough around to "seed" the growth and because of who will be promoting it, assuming that Bundy can get some time off from Oracle Racing. And, of course, because it is well proven and succesful already.


C-2 is F-18, the Viper is their (AHPC) F-16 offering.

#11 samc99us

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:47 AM

The insulated mast requirement is pretty stupid. Outside of that, a carbon masted Viper or Nacra F16 would be a good candidate. Crew weight limit is pretty low but there are some <140 lb male skippers out there.

#12 SimonN

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 02:49 AM


It won't be an H16. It fails on too many scores and when it lines up against any modern cat of the same size, I cannot see how any sailor would vote for it. The only thing it has going for it is the numbers and ISAF is used to backing new classes so that won't be an issue.

I suspect it will be a one design F16. I am sure that all the big players will be able to produce a 2 piece mast without any problems. However, i suspect that requirement is the one least likely to influence the class chosen. My money would be on the C2, becaus ethere are enough around to "seed" the growth and because of who will be promoting it, assuming that Bundy can get some time off from Oracle Racing. And, of course, because it is well proven and succesful already.


C-2 is F-18, the Viper is their (AHPC) F-16 offering.

Woops! Sorry. Good spot. So it will be the viper :D

#13 Gav Parker

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 07:52 AM

The insulated mast requirement is pretty stupid. Outside of that, a carbon masted Viper or Nacra F16 would be a good candidate. Crew weight limit is pretty low but there are some <140 lb male skippers out there.


mmmmm Carbon Mast....... They make an awesome sound when they go pop, especially the two piece ones. Just ask a windsurfer. Awesome quick though. I'd love to have one on my C2.

F18 Front Runners:
Phantom (with curved boards)
Cirrus R
C2
Nacra
Wildcat
Windrush Edge
Shockwave

F16 Front Runners
Viper
Nacra

Sleeper
Marstrom

Any of these guys could put together a variation of their Formula boats - curved boards, carbon beams, carbon mast etc to take it outside the formula class. In some of the instances they'll make them stronger and more durable. Good things for the cat class. We'll see some good innovation from this that will feed to the production boats....I hope!

#14 DSYHS

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:43 AM

two piece aluminium masts are bolt-rope and battenpocket eaters. that's a stupid prerequisite.
why demand it to be shippable in a 20 ft container? price difference between 20 and 40ft isn't worth the hassle of a two piece mast.

#15 SimonN

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:09 AM

F18 Front Runners:
Phantom (with curved boards)
Cirrus R
C2
Nacra
Wildcat
Windrush Edge
Shockwave

Do you really think they will go for an F18? Doesn't it really need more weight than their target? They won't want a boat that everybody sails close to the max intended range.

#16 macca

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:28 PM

As I have said before: each time a class gains Olympic status the target weights for that class drop by around 7-8kg per athlete. So if you are competitive in a class currently at 120kg you will be too heavy after a season at Olympic level.

Better skills mean less weight required.

So an f18 sized boat would be fine at Olympic level with those target weights. We have seen teams competitive at 140kg in the fleet right now, so subtract the "Olympic weight" and you are bang on target.

Remember, this is the Olympics, and the boat should be challenging at this level.

#17 Tcatman

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:26 PM

My read of the ISAF tea leaves is that they want a boat with a similar market as the laser and windsurfer. I think the America Cup has changed the world. They want a focus on the sailors and countries from around the world... I think they go low end... not high tech. The competition is already weird... with Mixed Multihull. This event will be interesting every 4 years and simply blend into the background during the interim.. This class won't lead the technology innovation as the Tornado once did.

I am curious what language or inside info that you point to which leads to a cool high tech boat as the choice.

#18 Gav Parker

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 02:36 PM


F18 Front Runners:
Phantom (with curved boards)
Cirrus R
C2
Nacra
Wildcat
Windrush Edge
Shockwave

Do you really think they will go for an F18? Doesn't it really need more weight than their target? They won't want a boat that everybody sails close to the max intended range.


If the weight is at the 120-140kg range then an F18 "style" boat will fit. An F16 will be too small. We sailed a combined regatta with F16's and F18's in Western Australia last year. Guys that were top five in the Tornado worlds (Brett and Ryan) were on an F18 and the Hill girls (current Hobie 16 womens world champs) were on a Viper. In the light stuff they were incredibly quick and would have been even quicker on an F18. Anyone thinking that an F18 without enough weight won't be fast is kidding themselves. They'll just keep depowering to keep rolling, you can't do that if you're too heavy. Weight is king.

It will be interesting to see if they'll have a designated minimum weight for crews. A preferred weight range is specified in this document.... doesn't mean it will be enforced for the olympics.

Lets see what they do.

#19 Lost in Translation

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:54 PM

The women's skiff request was published too and looks similar with the exception of the requirement for a two part mast. Seems the committee believes the cat can have a two part mast more easily than the women's skiff. Ironically the 49er has a two part mast, but I don't think it can be easily separated once the external track is installed (at least the old masts had a glued on track).

#20 ojfd

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:18 PM

My read of the ISAF tea leaves is that they want a boat with a similar market as the laser and windsurfer.
<snip>

Yes, unfortunately it looks very much so :-(
Also, read carefully these few lines from ISAF paper:

"Past performance and capability of the Manufacturer/Supplier Team –
The manufacturer/suppliers of proposed equipment will be required to show that they have the experience and expertise and the means to
distribute the equipment globally. Factors in this category include builders and distributors in place for global distribution without delay."

Does that mean that they (ISAF) will choose product from ONE single manufacturer? The one that will be able to supply boats 3-5 times a year to bigger ISAF events, like Worlds?

Dart 16 X anyone?

I see no place for Tornado here...
Sad...

#21 david r

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 12:15 AM

Hi, just sitting here recuperating and typing in some thoughts.
Some of the requirements that seemed relevant to me. (mostly pasted in from the pdf):
7 months to invent the new cat or re-design an old one with a different mast which may cause use of a smaller genaker.

be equipment that avoids unnecessary or excessive costs.

the equipment should not cause a measurement burden on an event organizer.

Durability of the hull and of the various parts (longevity)

Access for maintenance and repair procedures

builders and distributors in place for global distribution without delay.

Consistency of manufacture

FRP construction of hulls. meaning fiber reinforced polymer, or fibre re-inforced plastic?

Isolation of Mast from Power Lines – The proposed equipment is to provide a measure of safety from inadvertent strikes of the mast to the overhead power lines.

my thoughts:
They want the boat to be affordable, repairable, and accessible to many people worldwide. that means there won't be much carbon in it. Can you repair injection molded boats? Does FRP even include injection molding?

E Glass is designed to insulate for electrical purposes. That is why Hobie has a fiberglass mast tip. Carbon fiber conducts electricity, but maybe some carbon could be used on the inside of the mast tip using the glass to insulate it from power lines. Maybe a mast could be made a little more wing like, and use sandwich construction instead of just thick layers of glass to gain extra stiffness. The Hobie tip is so flexible and the joint with the aluminum is junk that there is room for better engineering there.
Hobie didn't incorporate the mast track into the mold, so i guess there is extra production costs with molding the mast and track together in one continuous piece. i would like to see how that problem is solved just for my own information.
Alternatively someone could design a 2 piece wing that is affordable and durable when it capsizes, but not much heavier than a normal 16/18 rig. ha ha

There are only a handful of boat manufacturers that can do global distribution without delay, and It seems like they want a factory supplied boat that doesn't need measuring in.

Might end up with a injection molded cat with a real bendy mast and a small gennaker that is already in production, or maybe a sandwich construction boat with a bendy mast and small genaker.
i wonder if a H16 is affordable enough and has a good enough genaker system to be an option for the committee? A Dart is also a possibility if affordable. Does the 16x have a spi and glass fibre mast tip?

#22 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:12 AM


The insulated mast requirement is pretty stupid. Outside of that, a carbon masted Viper or Nacra F16 would be a good candidate. Crew weight limit is pretty low but there are some <140 lb male skippers out there.


mmmmm Carbon Mast....... They make an awesome sound when they go pop, especially the two piece ones. Just ask a windsurfer. Awesome quick though. I'd love to have one on my C2.

F18 Front Runners:
Phantom (with curved boards)
Cirrus R
C2
Nacra
Wildcat
Windrush Edge
Shockwave

F16 Front Runners
Viper
Nacra

Sleeper
Marstrom

Any of these guys could put together a variation of their Formula boats - curved boards, carbon beams, carbon mast etc to take it outside the formula class. In some of the instances they'll make them stronger and more durable. Good things for the cat class. We'll see some good innovation from this that will feed to the production boats....I hope!


Not choosing a 20 ft is a pity. I wish it was a F18. However very reliable sources told me in July that they had already chosen a 16ft.
Could the selection trial change the game ? I hope so, but that was planned too.
Basically the boats will be be for kids or very light weight, which eliminates a lot of players, not speaking of most of actual racers....
Mad old blue blazers.

#23 multimulti

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 02:31 AM

From reading Roland Gaebler's response to this proposal from the front page of SA it would seem that some elements of ISAF are doing their level best to screw the Olympic multihull. Perhaps they see the high profile Extreme Sailing series, F18, A Class and the AC45 circuit as a threat to their mono franchises and want to nip this trend in the bud.

Unless the specification is seriously changed we are going to get a small boat with a very light crew - not really likely to appeal to the broader beach cat racing community and unlikely to get the high profile this event deserves.

Bo

#24 Sailabout

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 02:51 AM

Maybe
But it will appeal to Asian sailors

#25 aslongastheyreallthesame

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 03:25 AM

Maybe they just wanted to toss the old design and against the winds of a strong establishment/history they had to resort to other means to do that.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with excluding an older design just due to age. i.e. "Must be designed within the last 10 years and rerigging doesn't count."

Hey, it's the olympics. (was I supposed to capitalize that?)

Let's make sure it's the pinnacle of the sport in question. (Yeah, I know my avatar disputes this. I have already been given grief for that.)

(Oh, hi multi folks. I am rarely one of you. I had to come all the way here just dispute that whiner on the front page.)

#26 blackensign

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 10:38 AM

WETA

#27 furling

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 10:59 AM

I wonder if Roland could specify further his comment on SA regarding ISAF committees and their commercial interests, whose product do they represent

#28 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 12:04 PM

Waah, waah, waah, waah! You didn't choose my class! I'm going to stamp around like a spoiled brat until I get my way!


What a wanker.

I wonder if Roland could specify further his comment on SA regarding ISAF committees and their commercial interests, whose product do they represent

He may be referring to David Brookes, who is on the Equipment Committee - he's the Executive Director of the International Hobie Class Association. However, there are 20 people on that committee - including Carolijn Brouwer.

#29 MattZ

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:51 PM

This decision takes care of the last shred of interest I had in the olympics. RIP, they're dead to me.

#30 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 03:00 PM


F18 Front Runners:
Phantom (with curved boards)
Cirrus R
C2
Nacra
Wildcat
Windrush Edge
Shockwave

Do you really think they will go for an F18? Doesn't it really need more weight than their target? They won't want a boat that everybody sails close to the max intended range.


SimonN, you claimed you participated to the ban of the T because you did not like its representative. Happy of your job today ?

#31 FishAintBiting

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 03:32 PM

This decision takes care of the last shred of interest I had in the olympics. RIP, they're dead to me.


To make it, that is any sailing, an event of interest there would have to be a significant investment in the media. This would include multiple helicopters, commentators that knew the subject and could convey this to the public, chase boats, and rules that meant there was no protesting (all disputes resolved whilst the race was running). I can't see the Olympic committee feeling like this is a wise investment.

Let's go sail and enjoy ourselves.

fish

#32 Xlot

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 04:06 PM

Just asking: would a carbon spar be a must if the boat is to be easily righted by (a lightweight) crew alone?

#33 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 05:27 PM

Just asking: would a carbon spar be a must if the boat is to be easily righted by (a lightweight) crew alone?

No. For example, a Hobie 16 (aluminum mast w/heavier fiberglass tip) is easily righted by a minimum weight (285 lb) crew - if there's some wind and a bit of a sea state to help pop the mast free of the water.

Righting is as much technique as it is brute force. Look as how fast ET righted the last day in Plymouth. That was all technique.

#34 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 07:45 PM

Unless the specification is seriously changed we are going to get a small boat with a very light crew - not really likely to appeal to the broader beach cat racing community and unlikely to get the high profile this event deserves.

Bo


BO, you as with most are missing the big picture as (probably) ISAF sees it.

Sailing is a sport where both sexes can compete against each other given the correct boat.

With Sailing on the Olympic Chopping Block, because of the lack of TV interest, ISAF is looking to the future where they can have coed teams and eliminate quite a few other classes. This will help keep Sailing in the Olympics for the foreseeable future.

Boats that accommodate the smaller frame of women and the average male, yes believe it or not, there are far more smaller men in the world than your knuckle dragging ass B) (don't take it personally). I'm just looking at the sailing world from a different POV.

I have no doubt that the IOC and ISAF have had talks to this effect.

If you are looking for an athletic boat for you big boys, get in a finn or laser. I am sure they will introduce some class specs in the future for big guys. One step at a time.


PS: As a side note

I have experienced first hand what the Oly/Paralympic social engineering of classes can do. I am refering to the SKUD class where the Driver must be a 2 or less rated disability and one of the team must be a woman. My rating is a 3 so I cannot drive and there are no 2 level women out west here in the US who are good enough to drive. So I was excluded from being the crew for Nick Scandone, who lived just an hour away, because I was not a woman. I am too light to be a decent crew on the Sonar and a 3 rating does not fit well to add up to a team total. So that only leaves the 2.4mR for me and that means too much very expensive traveling to the east coast for racing.

So, all I can say is get over it and get in a new class or get out. I've had to do just that for 2 reasons. 1. My injury and 2. ISAF and IFDS have changed the rules that hit me (and west coast disabled racing) pretty hard. oh yea, USS has been fully complicit with all the rule changes too.



Sorry if I was too brutally honest.

#35 I'moutahere

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 08:00 PM


Unless the specification is seriously changed we are going to get a small boat with a very light crew - not really likely to appeal to the broader beach cat racing community and unlikely to get the high profile this event deserves.

Bo


BO, you as with most are missing the big picture as (probably) ISAF sees it.

Sailing is a sport where both sexes can compete against each other given the correct boat.

With Sailing on the Olympic Chopping Block, because of the lack of TV interest, ISAF is looking to the future where they can have coed teams and eliminate quite a few other classes. This will help keep Sailing in the Olympics for the foreseeable future.

Boats that accommodate the smaller frame of women and the average male, yes believe it or not, there are far more smaller men in the world than your knuckle dragging ass B) (don't take it personally). I'm just looking at the sailing world from a different POV.

I have no doubt that the IOC and ISAF have had talks to this effect.

If you are looking for an athletic boat for you big boys, get in a finn or laser. I am sure they will introduce some class specs in the future for big guys. One step at a time.





Sorry if I was too brutally honest.


Well written Dawg. Hit the nail on the head.

Olympic sailing is not about "crash & burn" extreme sailing. The Laser is hardly a spectacular boat to watch racing (apologies to Laser sailors) but it is there in numbers & relatively inexpensive & accessable to people all over the world. That is the type of multihull ISAF are looking for. A type where the athlete is the difference, not "if the athlete will survive". If you want that type of sailing - go AC.

(safe bet that not ANY of the whingers here will ever compete in either AC or Olympics)

edit.... I will add that Olympic selection is in most cases the kiss of death for a class.

#36 SimonN

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 10:24 PM

SimonN, you claimed you participated to the ban of the T because you did not like its representative. Happy of your job today ?

You really are a mindless fuckwit! I campaigned FOR the Tornado (or to be more precise for at least 1 multihull), not against it. However, as is well documented, the whole thing was blown apart by the behavior of one person, the then class chair. I guess going around threatening everybody with legal action wasn't the best way of winning friends and influencing people!

This whole thing over the size of the crew and the spec of the boat is totally misguided. The size range seem to me to be pretty spot on for a mixed crew. The first thing to note is that this isn't a limit for the class rules. it is a proposed range of competitive weights. Based on the average weight of women participating in top level sailing and men, this range is pretty well spot on. Don't just think WASP sizes. You need to include others, such as Asians. FWIW, this is the weight range that both Bundy and Carolijn have been racing mixed crew events. This weight range is totally in line with other trials - for instance, the women's skiff is targetted at 110-130kgs so they have added an extra 10 kgs for a woman. Compare that to the mens skiff where the average weight has been abou 150kg. Take 10kgs off for a woman and what do you get.

I also have a reasonable amount of faith in those on the committee, and in particular in Carolijn. I also know that anybody who thinks the Tornado is an ideal mixed gender boat is out of touch with reality. Over the course of last summer (Australia) I spoke to Carolijn at length about what the spec would be like and I certainly don't see anything in that spec that differs from what she believes is right. The biggest problem is the amount of self interest out there and the bullshit about the T on the fp is exactly that. The T is one of the great cats, but is totally unsuited to what is now needed.

#37 pacice

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 01:36 AM

2 piece mast and 120kg weight guideline.
My Weta is the prefect choice.

Also it's a mono with trainer wheels - so another vote for it!! :P :lol: :lol: :lol:

#38 Tcatman

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 01:53 AM


SimonN,


I also have a reasonable amount of faith in those on the committee, and in particular in Carolijn. I also know that anybody who thinks the Tornado is an ideal mixed gender boat is out of touch with reality. Over the course of last summer (Australia) I spoke to Carolijn at length about what the spec would be like and I certainly don't see anything in that spec that differs from what she believes is right. The biggest problem is the amount of self interest out there and the bullshit about the T on the fp is exactly that. The T is one of the great cats, but is totally unsuited to what is now needed.


Simon... What exactly do they want?

Current Olympic level sailors will accept a stiff powered up ... high tech boat.... even at 16 feet. Isaf will want tight controls on this boat so that NO development ... other then sails is allowed. This will be an Olympic class with little support from the rank and file. But, how many new countries will start olympic multihull sailing with this boat.... is not clear. I call this the Ultimate mini might choice.

ISAF (to me) looks like they want a boat that is affordable. not that high tech... very reliable and gets lots of small countries out to play.... The boat is affordable AND you don't have a huge competitive mountain of existing elite sailors on the boat to climb. A modern hobie 16. ... a laser equivalent. A boat that is good enough... Not the best in the world at any price or even a premium price.. Current Olympic sailors won't be impressed or happy... but the goal is to grow participation at the Olympic level and this equipment will do well enough. They don't expect this new class to become popular with the rank and file... just viewed as a reasonable step up... from what is now actively sailed and raced.

The ISAF grade I events will be the core racing schedule plus a worlds and many pre regattas. .... just as it was for the Tornado and other Olympic classes. Development will be crushed immediately... Perhaps boats will be provided at the games.... bring your sails.

We are forced to read these tea leaves because the ISAF point of view is unknown. What is your hunch?

Personally, the Tornado was the biggest, baddest cat on the block... Those days are over.... the competition is not Open... it is mixed.. The world now looks at the AC 45's, Extreme 40's... and the big AC boats as the biggest and baddest cats. No one cares what beach cat is the biggest and baddest boat..

I would go for a cheap available cat ONLY IF... I had an outstanding idea of how to grow the sport with these other countries.... You need to provide an anwser for Figi... I have some good sailors who sail Hobie 16's.... Do I see that these sailors would have a shot on this new boat... and my rank an file sailors would support them in the slightly different Olympic class?

Very keen to hear any insights you have.

#39 GRUMPY

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 02:40 AM

Other than crew weight Hobie miracle 20 fits (135kg not 120kg) We sail mine at 115 - 120kg in mostly light, equatorial conditions. No issues if it pipes up a bit

#40 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 03:24 AM


SimonN, you claimed you participated to the ban of the T because you did not like its representative. Happy of your job today ?

You really are a mindless fuckwit! I campaigned FOR the Tornado (or to be more precise for at least 1 multihull), not against it. However, as is well documented, the whole thing was blown apart by the behavior of one person, the then class chair. I guess going around threatening everybody with legal action wasn't the best way of winning friends and influencing people!

This whole thing over the size of the crew and the spec of the boat is totally misguided. The size range seem to me to be pretty spot on for a mixed crew. The first thing to note is that this isn't a limit for the class rules. it is a proposed range of competitive weights. Based on the average weight of women participating in top level sailing and men, this range is pretty well spot on. Don't just think WASP sizes. You need to include others, such as Asians. FWIW, this is the weight range that both Bundy and Carolijn have been racing mixed crew events. This weight range is totally in line with other trials - for instance, the women's skiff is targetted at 110-130kgs so they have added an extra 10 kgs for a woman. Compare that to the mens skiff where the average weight has been abou 150kg. Take 10kgs off for a woman and what do you get.

I also have a reasonable amount of faith in those on the committee, and in particular in Carolijn. I also know that anybody who thinks the Tornado is an ideal mixed gender boat is out of touch with reality. Over the course of last summer (Australia) I spoke to Carolijn at length about what the spec would be like and I certainly don't see anything in that spec that differs from what she believes is right. The biggest problem is the amount of self interest out there and the bullshit about the T on the fp is exactly that. The T is one of the great cats, but is totally unsuited to what is now needed.

I did not find the quote where you boasted that but you allways had 2 discourses here, pretending to defend the Tornado and the cats while attacking the cat sailors, even if you are part of them. Basically the only thing you did was defending the ISAF. Here is a little example of you quotes during the last years:
the way many in the cat community have behaved over the last few months doesn't reflect well on it. The abuse that has been heaped on people - officials and jounalists alike - has been nothing short of a disgrace

I will try to explain why so many of the cat sailors have got this wrong and are likely to do more harm than good.

However, the cat sailors are all saying that the decision is anti cat. It isn't. Look at the other things that have happened. It is also anti high performance sailing.

they look like spoilt children who have had their toys taken away.

I really do think that if the cat comminity want to get anywhere with this, they need to take a long hard look at who they attack and make sure they aren't biting the hand that feeds them.

I have been on the receiving end of abuse for what is mistakenly seen as an anti cat stand, which is rediculous as I have been involved with cats and am a big fan.

It was possible to get selected without the US vote, if others could be convinced.

I believe that it is unhelpful to uncouplke cats from the rest of high performance sailing. After all, it wasn't just the Cats who were rejected. There are as many monohull sailors up in arms about this as there are cat sailors. Everywhere I go I here the same thing - ISAF got it wrong on all counts.

To use that as an arguement for reviewing the events will go knowhere and will only "harm" the cause, because it gives an easy get out, allowing ISAF to say "see, they don't understand the issues".


Your ego makes of you real a dickhead and you know it.

As far as the present choice of a cat less than 140 kg bans most of the present competitors sailors.

ISAF present choice has nothing to do with competition and everything to do with commercial purposes, and you know it too. :)

#41 multimulti

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 04:24 AM


Unless the specification is seriously changed we are going to get a small boat with a very light crew - not really likely to appeal to the broader beach cat racing community and unlikely to get the high profile this event deserves.

Bo


BO, you as with most are missing the big picture as (probably) ISAF sees it.

Sailing is a sport where both sexes can compete against each other given the correct boat.


@Dawg unless I am completely mistaken Olympic sport is supposed to be athletes competing at the highest level, not just about crash and burn. Competing at this level you have to be a full time professional, train constantly and the equipment used should reflect this. Somehow I don't see an F16 style boat as representing that level in our sport today and that is where ISAF IMHO have gone wrong. Can you imagine what value the gold medal will have in this Olympic class when all the top teams are competing elsewhere?

#42 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:00 AM

Multimini,
I discussed with one of the best known cat designer and builder this summer. He told me that all his F18 production was a mere fraction of what all the 16ft he was selling to schools.
Competition cats represent a lot of investment in research and team expenses while sales are small.
On the other hand they sell hundred of small cats to schools.
Stangely ISAF is willing to promote 16ft cat, do you guess why?

The sheer stupidity of the scheme is that, when kids stop sailing those cats, and begin racing, they choose a F18 and sometimes a 20 ft.
The second obligation of having a mix crew is just making a joke of ISAF.

Let us fuck themselves and SimonN defend them.:P

#43 this and that

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:23 AM



Seems to me that you all are missing the point of I see as a coach is a smart decision.


My son and his crew (mixed) fit into this envelop easily and so do lots people sailing with them, that being mixed and same sex.


The challenge is to sail a performance boat, regardless of class, fast .... not pick the biggest boat with the biggest crews and sail fast. It is supposed to be an event that is the absolute pinnacle of a sport.


My bet, a variant of one of the F16 boats, maybe a Viper would be nice.


As for the Hobie16, too old, too slow and a rig design that does not fit the envelope of "modern".


Sometimes as critics we need to be careful about what we wish for, it has a habit of biting us on the arse and then sailing looses out.


The Tornado is too powerful for most crews of their chosen weights, too big etc etc .... and of a old design (albeit re-vamped a few times)


My main concern would be the 2 piece mast, but then sometimes rules get changed after selection due to "excessive breakages" etc etc .... and a carbon or any other mast is all "do-able" it is just engineering.


Now we wait and see.

#44 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 06:01 AM

A 40 foot container fits hulls, riggs and a coach boat nicely. That said, most Olympic aspirants will have a boat in Europe anyway. Savings in shipping a 20' container over a 40 will be minimal, particularly if you have enough people sharing a container. A 2 piece mast will be more expensive to produce and development will need to be done in it.

Spoke with Greg Goodall today, he said they have already built a few 2 piece masts for the Viper. Looks like they are very serious with their Olympic push.

#45 macca

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:38 AM


SimonN, you claimed you participated to the ban of the T because you did not like its representative. Happy of your job today ?

You really are a mindless fuckwit! I campaigned FOR the Tornado (or to be more precise for at least 1 multihull), not against it. However, as is well documented, the whole thing was blown apart by the behavior of one person, the then class chair. I guess going around threatening everybody with legal action wasn't the best way of winning friends and influencing people!

This whole thing over the size of the crew and the spec of the boat is totally misguided. The size range seem to me to be pretty spot on for a mixed crew. The first thing to note is that this isn't a limit for the class rules. it is a proposed range of competitive weights. Based on the average weight of women participating in top level sailing and men, this range is pretty well spot on. Don't just think WASP sizes. You need to include others, such as Asians. FWIW, this is the weight range that both Bundy and Carolijn have been racing mixed crew events. This weight range is totally in line with other trials - for instance, the women's skiff is targetted at 110-130kgs so they have added an extra 10 kgs for a woman. Compare that to the mens skiff where the average weight has been abou 150kg. Take 10kgs off for a woman and what do you get.

I also have a reasonable amount of faith in those on the committee, and in particular in Carolijn. I also know that anybody who thinks the Tornado is an ideal mixed gender boat is out of touch with reality. Over the course of last summer (Australia) I spoke to Carolijn at length about what the spec would be like and I certainly don't see anything in that spec that differs from what she believes is right. The biggest problem is the amount of self interest out there and the bullshit about the T on the fp is exactly that. The T is one of the great cats, but is totally unsuited to what is now needed.



Hey Simon, why do you think Carolijn believes the Spec that has been published is so suitable?? I can give you hint if you like.. starts with "M" and ends with "Y"

And the Average weight for top level teams is 136.5kg across the Tornado and all womens classes from the last 2 games, so the average of top level mixed teams is considerably higher than the proposed middle ground from ISAF. And remember we are counting the 470 in that figure, a class that has a clear preference of super light helms.

#46 SimonN

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:52 AM

Hey Simon, why do you think Carolijn believes the Spec that has been published is so suitable?? I can give you hint if you like.. starts with "M" and ends with "Y"

Sorry, I don't get it. Are you suggesting that Carolijn is acting in self interest?

And the Average weight for top level teams is 136.5kg across the Tornado and all womens classes from the last 2 games, so the average of top level mixed teams is considerably higher than the proposed middle ground from ISAF. And remember we are counting the 470 in that figure, a class that has a clear preference of super light helms.

Again, i am not sure what the point you are trying to make is. Surely the weight range is based on the people they are targeting, not the past. There is a real desire to get more Asian countries involved in more classes. However, to target a class with an top end crew weight of 140kgs gives you, say, a 75kgs man and a 65 kg woman or, more likely, something like a 60kg woman and a 70-75kg man. It seems totally reasonable to me. As for the T or any other larger boat, I regret I cannot see a role for them in this target market. If it were an open class I would certainly support the T, although I would also want to see how it stacked up against a modern 20 footer.

I really don't understand this fixation some people seem to have with only focusing on the weight of the standard white anglo saxon. The sport has to be inclusive. I have no issue at all with the weight band they have selected and personally feel that the only reason to object to it is if you have an agenda.

#47 SimonN

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:59 AM

I did not find the quote where you boasted that but you allways had 2 discourses here, pretending to defend the Tornado and the cats while attacking the cat sailors, even if you are part of them. Basically the only thing you did was defending the ISAF. Here is a little example of you quotes during the last years:
the way many in the cat community have behaved over the last few months doesn't reflect well on it. The abuse that has been heaped on people - officials and jounalists alike - has been nothing short of a disgrace

I will try to explain why so many of the cat sailors have got this wrong and are likely to do more harm than good.

However, the cat sailors are all saying that the decision is anti cat. It isn't. Look at the other things that have happened. It is also anti high performance sailing.

they look like spoilt children who have had their toys taken away.

I really do think that if the cat comminity want to get anywhere with this, they need to take a long hard look at who they attack and make sure they aren't biting the hand that feeds them.

I have been on the receiving end of abuse for what is mistakenly seen as an anti cat stand, which is rediculous as I have been involved with cats and am a big fan.

It was possible to get selected without the US vote, if others could be convinced.

I believe that it is unhelpful to uncouplke cats from the rest of high performance sailing. After all, it wasn't just the Cats who were rejected. There are as many monohull sailors up in arms about this as there are cat sailors. Everywhere I go I here the same thing - ISAF got it wrong on all counts.

To use that as an arguement for reviewing the events will go knowhere and will only "harm" the cause, because it gives an easy get out, allowing ISAF to say "see, they don't understand the issues".

First off, you will never find a quote from me to suggest anything other than my total support for cats in the Olympics. Unlike you, I went to all but one of the ISAF conferences at the time and know exactly what happened. At every step of the way I supported cats And as for what you have posted above, not only do I satnd by that but would suggest that the approach i advocated is exactly what the likes of Bundy and Carolijn did which is why cats are back in. The hot heads who reacted by saying the multihull world should break frm ISAF have been proven wrong. It has only been through working within the organisation that cats have got back in which is what I aways supported. In fact, some of the posts you highlight above say as much.

#48 Tony-F18

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:42 AM

I really don't understand this fixation some people seem to have with only focusing on the weight of the standard white anglo saxon. The sport has to be inclusive. I have no issue at all with the weight band they have selected and personally feel that the only reason to object to it is if you have an agenda.

You know what is really funny?
The only Asian pro-catsailor that I know is 2m tall and weights around 100KGs! :lol: :lol:

Ma Jian:
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#49 macca

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:51 AM

Yep, As Simon says: the Sport has to be inclusive... :)

#50 BobBill

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 11:17 AM

Tornado...++++++++


But I like so many others, i am done with Olympic sailing. People are too political and have ruined that venue. They do not care, as they have a swollen population which has no clue either.

#51 shanghaisailor

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 01:19 PM

I am not a multihull sailor - sorry - but have sailed Trnado and Unicorn in the past, even a Shearwater a couple of times but is is obvious to me that this is not a mixed class specification but a girly's boat. 140kg max? come on ISAF you have just provided further proof of your distance from your consituency - healthy sailors. My daughter and I (and we are not fatties) could not sail together in this class. My wife and she could though.

Apart from anything else I believe sailing in the Olympics is doomed if it doesn't get itself higher up the viewers table. It is exensive to stage and sponsors are all about ROI (Return on Investment).

If it doesn't attract the producers eye, it gets less coverage so the sponsor's ROI on that event drops. Qingdao cost USD1m per competitor and one of the best sights was the tornados making their way out to their course on the occaisional big wind day.

I was at Qingdao for 2006 and 2007 test events and the Olympics themselves and EVERYONE had big containers. Perhaps none of teh technical committee were at the events? and as for the business about 2 part masts, with the loads cats develop they are going to have to be heavy or fat or both and you try and seal a 2 part mast. And of course the joint - like any joint will eventually work loose, no matter how you engineer it.

What is wrong with the status quo, the Tornado is/was Olympic Sailing's great white hope in terms of looking exciting.

And lets not forget that there is no greater audience for advertising our sport, so lets make it less extreme, less attractive to potential new sailors, never mind the TV producers.

Let's look at some facts - Sailing's presence in the Olympics is not guaranteed,ISAF receives a large percentage of its funding from the IOC. No Olympic Sailing, and probably less member authorities as well - so even less funding. I for one would not jeapardise my primary income stream if I was running a business.

But what do I know - I am only a sailor, not important to ISAF. I have only contacted them twice, once to enquire about individual membership to be told "we don't do that" and once to ask for clarification on a rules issue to be told "We don't do that" - then what the hell do they do?

SS

#52 Sailabout

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 02:26 PM

does this rule include the (x) gender or in betweens?
Was this rule made specially for Australia ( and most of Asia)?

#53 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 02:34 PM

The challenge is to sail a performance boat, regardless of class, fast ....

As for the Hobie16, too old, too slow and a rig design that does not fit the envelope of "modern".


Did you not just contradict yourself? Time to post some pics! This thread is much too serious.

#54 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 02:45 PM

Waah, waah, waah, waah! You didn't choose my class! I'm going to stamp around like a spoiled brat until I get my way!


What a wanker.

I wonder if Roland could specify further his comment on SA regarding ISAF committees and their commercial interests, whose product do they represent

He may be referring to David Brookes, who is on the Equipment Committee - he's the Executive Director of the International Hobie Class Association. However, there are 20 people on that committee - including Carolijn Brouwer.



Or was he referring to:

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Darren Bundock and Carolijn Brouwer

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Tel: +31 (0)70 8919400
Mobile: +31624634776
E-mail: info@2bsailing.eu
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#55 Luke Piewalker

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 03:25 PM

Surely isolation of the mast can be between deck and ground?
As to the two part mast business, if you were popping lovely wing sections out of a beatifully machined and polished female mould would you rather be told about a two piece mast requirement before or after...

#56 Catnewbie

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 03:38 PM

The actual ISAF motivation: just an assumption?

According to the container requirements, If ISAF would have seek to promote boats with a removable stern (AC45 style) their new rules are perfect

The same remark for the rig, I don't know if wing sail are prohibited?
if not, may be ISAF consider that it is probably structurally easier to have a split mast structure for a wing than for a teardrop mast while achieving good bending specs under load, and mini reliability.

In other words ISAF would pave the road for a scaled down AC45 catamaran solution??

It is just a guess, I have not a buck in this fight, Tornado is a great boat with 40 years of development, but very demanding physically,
of course it is for Olympics, not for fat daddies! But like most of the "benchwarmers" I would love to have access to an olympic boat
"affordable" for me.

Cheers

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#57 trenace

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 03:40 PM

As personal opinion, a huge factor in this and in a very large number of things in the Olympics is that there is the attitude, "We are the Olympics and our brand is so great that we can do absolutely whatever we want of any kind and there you have it."

They really don't see a need to compete to meet the desires of people, whether spectators or the athletes.

When that is the case, one will see decisions like this. Or like the previous elimination of multihulls and the previous attempted elimination of the 49er.

#58 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 04:35 PM



Unless the specification is seriously changed we are going to get a small boat with a very light crew - not really likely to appeal to the broader beach cat racing community and unlikely to get the high profile this event deserves.

Bo


BO, you as with most are missing the big picture as (probably) ISAF sees it.

Sailing is a sport where both sexes can compete against each other given the correct boat.


@Dawg unless I am completely mistaken Olympic sport is supposed to be athletes competing at the highest level, not just about crash and burn. Competing at this level you have to be a full time professional, train constantly and the equipment used should reflect this. Somehow I don't see an F16 style boat as representing that level in our sport today and that is where ISAF IMHO have gone wrong. Can you imagine what value the gold medal will have in this Olympic class when all the top teams are competing elsewhere?


You are missing the point. You don't have to be a big hulking guy to compete at the highest levels, "Given the right boat"

Look at what the tiny little Ellen Macarthur did and the exposure she got for sailing. Are you saying she was not competing at the highest level?? You don't have balls big enough to say that to here face.

I for one am sick and tired of you big guys thinking you are the only ones who compete at the highest level.

Recently Alan Libiel won several big regattas in the 2.4mR. He is at least 190lbs and about 6ft. He beat 120lb sailors in light. medium and heavy air. He has also been beaten by the same 120lb sailors.

Have you ever sailed a singlehand boat where your weight is irrelevant?? Makes you think twice about opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I doubt you got the balls to get in a boat like the 2.4 where "size matters not". In fact I have no doubt that many of you guys think the 2.4 is a silly boat for disabled people.

Sailing Ability, not hiking ability or your body mass as movable ballast, is what sailing is about.

Grow up. The Times they are a Changing"

#59 trenace

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 04:47 PM

So is it meaningless if ISAF has specified that the boats should be designed for crew weights from 120-140 kg, or any particular value?

I had thought that if a designer optimized a boat for a given weight, then a crew around that weight -- instead of say 30-40 kg different -- tended to have an advantage on average. No?

Or is it that you have a resentment against "you big guys," something against "big hulking guy[s]" and therefore think it's better for the boats to be designed towards smaller-than-average mixed crew weights? Did someone kick sand in your face, did you dry up and blow away? Really from your post it seems you have a feeling about others being bigger.

But other than personal bias if that exists, why would it make sense for ISAF to specify designing to below-average mixed crew weights? (Even after taking into account "Olympic average" which is smaller.)

Wait a sec, if the boats were optimized for average weight and you're below it that would be bad, but optimizing it for below-average weight, making the guys that are above average weight even further off design optimum, is okay?

Why not split the middle and then people at either end are similarly far off design intent either way.

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#60 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:31 PM

So is it meaningless if ISAF has specified that the boats should be designed for crew weights from 120-140 kg, or any particular value?

I had thought that if a designer optimized a boat for a given weight, then a crew around that weight -- instead of say 30-40 kg different -- tended to have an advantage on average. No?

Or is it that you have a resentment against "you big guys," something against "big hulking guy[s]" and therefore think it's better for the boats to be designed towards smaller-than-average mixed crew weights? Did someone kick sand in your face, did you dry up and blow away? Really from your post it seems you have a feeling about others being bigger.

But other than personal bias if that exists, why would it make sense for ISAF to specify designing to below-average mixed crew weights? (Even after taking into account "Olympic average" which is smaller.)

Wait a sec, if the boats were optimized for average weight and you're below it that would be bad, but optimizing it for below-average weight, making the guys that are above average weight even further off design optimum, is okay?

Why not split the middle and then people at either end are similarly far off design intent either way.


No resentment. I just keep hearing from big guys that just because they are big and muscling old designs around the course that they are at the pinnacle of Olympic sailing and athleticism (The Macho Neanderthal attitude) and the light weight guys and boats are not. Go sail a Finn if you want to keep thinking like that. Maybe the powers to be want to go in a different direction. Big people had their time now move over or go lift weights.

And there is a big difference when an organizing body gives specs and a designer designs.

All the current (I think) and past Olympic boats were designs that were chosen and now ISAF is issuing specs to designers and it is causing an bit of a snit, would you say?

#61 trenace

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:34 PM

Well, do you have a reason for why it's a better idea for the specification to be below average mixed crew weight than at average?

If not, then why disagree with objection to it?

So far as interpreting other posters as claiming that Neanderthal brutes are what athleticism is about, I didn't see it.

#62 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:45 PM

In my first post I stated that this is the start of the Social engineering of Olympic Sailing. By 2020 I bet they will be specifying that some teams be coed. Just like they did in the Paralympic Skud Class. One member must be a female.

They want to eliminate the medal count in sailing so the can expand other sports that are more Tele friendly ot try and make sailing more Tele friendly.

One step at at time. First see if the boats work, then make the team specifications.



It really don't matter to me cause my options are so limited anyway.

Like the Aussie guys said [aussie accent] "HTFU Mate" [/aussie accent]

#63 macca

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:53 PM

Dawg, I find it very hard to follow your argument that crew weight is not a factor in Olympic sailing, It simply is, always has been and always will be.

Same as it is a factor in all top level of sailing where you can move your body around the boat. The only way around it is to all sail Skuds and 2.4's etc. And nobody wants that for the Olympics.

#64 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 06:11 PM

Heaven forbid you had to sail with woman on board or rely solely on your ability and not your weight.

You guys just seem to refuse to see the writing on the wall.

#65 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:01 PM

Heaven forbid you had to sail with woman on board or rely solely on your ability and your your weight.

You guys just seem to refuse to see the writing on the wall.


Dawg, after reading your previous posts I think you has false assumptions. I have never seen disdain for light sailors, excepted for the Finn they are even in demand now.
Same for the small Martin, we have 10 at the club and I wish I can sail one when possible.

#66 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:03 PM

The T is one of the great cats, but is totally unsuited to what is now needed.


Contrarily to what some may think I don't think the T should be back.
But could you explain what kind of boat is suited now ? ;)

#67 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:18 PM

Catamarans represent about 80% of the boats on the beaches in the world and, lately they were not represented at the Olympics, now they want a cat for kids. How many over 18 are between 60kg and 70kg ?
At the same time they still have outdated shitty boats just because of some lobbies

The cats should have a 2 boats and no obligation of wathever for the crew.

1. An A cat, my favorite would be the DNA

2. A 18ft or a 20 ft.

- The 18ft is what most sailors race now. My favorite is the Cirrus R

- The 20 ft is the Rolls of the cats, the high performance and, IMO, should be at the Olympics. The Tornado has been the fastest, the safest, the strongest, for half a century. Now the M20 and the Nacra F20 are doing better.

My favorite would have been the F20. However I would have loved to see a competition between the M20, the F20 and the Tornado, all equipped with curved foils. The T revamped itself with the Spi, maybe it could still be the best with new curved foils.

All the above boats are top notch and high performance cats for the Olympics. Can you name me one 16ft ?

#68 FishAintBiting

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:53 PM




Unless the specification is seriously changed we are going to get a small boat with a very light crew - not really likely to appeal to the broader beach cat racing community and unlikely to get the high profile this event deserves.

Bo


BO, you as with most are missing the big picture as (probably) ISAF sees it.

Sailing is a sport where both sexes can compete against each other given the correct boat.


@Dawg unless I am completely mistaken Olympic sport is supposed to be athletes competing at the highest level, not just about crash and burn. Competing at this level you have to be a full time professional, train constantly and the equipment used should reflect this. Somehow I don't see an F16 style boat as representing that level in our sport today and that is where ISAF IMHO have gone wrong. Can you imagine what value the gold medal will have in this Olympic class when all the top teams are competing elsewhere?


You are missing the point. You don't have to be a big hulking guy to compete at the highest levels, "Given the right boat"

Look at what the tiny little Ellen Macarthur did and the exposure she got for sailing. Are you saying she was not competing at the highest level?? You don't have balls big enough to say that to here face.

I for one am sick and tired of you big guys thinking you are the only ones who compete at the highest level.

Recently Alan Libiel won several big regattas in the 2.4mR. He is at least 190lbs and about 6ft. He beat 120lb sailors in light. medium and heavy air. He has also been beaten by the same 120lb sailors.

Have you ever sailed a singlehand boat where your weight is irrelevant?? Makes you think twice about opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I doubt you got the balls to get in a boat like the 2.4 where "size matters not". In fact I have no doubt that many of you guys think the 2.4 is a silly boat for disabled people.

Sailing Ability, not hiking ability or your body mass as movable ballast, is what sailing is about.

Grow up. The Times they are a Changing"


If you take many other sports, say light-weight rowing for example, these athletes need to focus on their sport, as do most olympians. So when a light-weight rowing female needs to be roughly 1.70m tall and weigh below 57kg then she needs to watch how she trains and what she eats.

I suspect that the elite level of sailing, ie. the Olympics, requires similar dedication.

But then why are we, that is the people of Sailing Anarchy, getting upset at what those blazer-wearers at the ISAF are doing? I will never go to the Olympics and compete in sailing and I suspect that 98% of you lot have never done and never will either. I won't watch the sailing at the Olympics either because it is as boring as bat-shit. It is one event run every four years and to get to it you need to sail every day of the year. Sailing is a passion but then so is skiing, running, riding, drinking, hiking, eating ... for me.

Enjoy your passion for the reasons you first took it up, and keep this anger and aggression off the water.

Happy sailing,

Fish

#69 rule69

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:20 PM

I am not a multihull sailor - sorry - but have sailed Trnado and Unicorn in the past, even a Shearwater a couple of times but is is obvious to me that this is not a mixed class specification but a girly's boat. 140kg max? come on ISAF you have just provided further proof of your distance from your consituency - healthy sailors. My daughter and I (and we are not fatties) could not sail together in this class. My wife and she could though.


A few minutes on The Google (hey, google knows everything right? ;)) suggests to me that a mixed crew of average height for the developed world and median healthy BMI would fit exactly in the middle of the proposed weight range. Seems to me the target is healthy weight average height sailors. I doubt that's what they'll get on race day but at the Olympic level most sports run to type forming anyway. Long distance runners have way different builds than Shot putters and so on because of the equipment or designs of the contests. At 5'9", and as a former 470 sailor, I don't see anything wrong with a new class that favors the under severed (from my less than lofty point of view) left side of the population distribution.

#70 Sailabout

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:09 AM

Catamarans represent about 80% of the boats on the beaches in the world and, lately they were not represented at the Olympics, now they want a cat for kids. How many over 18 are between 60kg and 70kg ?
At the same time they still have outdated shitty boats just because of some lobbies

The cats should have a 2 boats and no obligation of wathever for the crew.

1. An A cat, my favorite would be the DNA

2. A 18ft or a 20 ft.

- The 18ft is what most sailors race now. My favorite is the Cirrus R

- The 20 ft is the Rolls of the cats, the high performance and, IMO, should be at the Olympics. The Tornado has been the fastest, the safest, the strongest, for half a century. Now the M20 and the Nacra F20 are doing better.

My favorite would have been the F20. However I would have loved to see a competition between the M20, the F20 and the Tornado, all equipped with curved foils. The T revamped itself with the Spi, maybe it could still be the best with new curved foils.

All the above boats are top notch and high performance cats for the Olympics. Can you name me one 16ft ?


Is sounds like all you have said is the biggest beach cats are the best so if that creeps up to 23-25 foot and you need 2 Finn sailors that is excluding even more people yet your argument would say yes these are top notch high performace olympic boats.

#71 shanghaisailor

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:15 AM




Unless the specification is seriously changed we are going to get a small boat with a very light crew - not really likely to appeal to the broader beach cat racing community and unlikely to get the high profile this event deserves.

Bo


BO, you as with most are missing the big picture as (probably) ISAF sees it.

Sailing is a sport where both sexes can compete against each other given the correct boat.


@Dawg unless I am completely mistaken Olympic sport is supposed to be athletes competing at the highest level, not just about crash and burn. Competing at this level you have to be a full time professional, train constantly and the equipment used should reflect this. Somehow I don't see an F16 style boat as representing that level in our sport today and that is where ISAF IMHO have gone wrong. Can you imagine what value the gold medal will have in this Olympic class when all the top teams are competing elsewhere?


You are missing the point. You don't have to be a big hulking guy to compete at the highest levels, "Given the right boat"

Look at what the tiny little Ellen Macarthur did and the exposure she got for sailing. Are you saying she was not competing at the highest level?? You don't have balls big enough to say that to here face.

I for one am sick and tired of you big guys thinking you are the only ones who compete at the highest level.

Recently Alan Libiel won several big regattas in the 2.4mR. He is at least 190lbs and about 6ft. He beat 120lb sailors in light. medium and heavy air. He has also been beaten by the same 120lb sailors.

Have you ever sailed a singlehand boat where your weight is irrelevant?? Makes you think twice about opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I doubt you got the balls to get in a boat like the 2.4 where "size matters not". In fact I have no doubt that many of you guys think the 2.4 is a silly boat for disabled people.

Sailing Ability, not hiking ability or your body mass as movable ballast, is what sailing is about.

Grow up. The Times they are a Changing"


Dawg, you like me are probably too old to go racing a boat where weight is an influence.

Sure Ellen is the tops, but none of her famous successess had anythng to do with weight, but all about physical - and more importantly - mental strength. The 2.4m being a keelboat - albeit a small one is also less weight dependant.

My daughter recently did bow onthe SB3 Worlds runner up and more than once in the lead up to the evnet I felt I had to caution her abou tthe amount of weight she was having to shed to help bring the crew weight under the overall limit.

I do agree that you don't have to be big to be a top rate sailor - my daughter proves it BUT when the average weight of a male and a female is more than the max for a particular class you either a) disqualify a large percentage of capable sailors or B) you force on them what could be regimes that are dangerous to overall health.

In any case ISAF is not trying to create "Sailing is a sport where both sexes can compete against each other given the correct boat." with the brief of mixed crews this is not the case - they clearly want one of each making this an unique Olympic event - or do you know of any other sport that stipulates teams of 1 x male, 1 x female?

ladies in mixed events in Olympic Sailing are not new, Cathy Foster helmed a 470 for GBR in Los Angeles I think it was.

But back to your first comment "given the right boat". A right boat where weight of crew isn't an influence would have to be a super wide multi or a super stable leadmine wouldn't it?

Careful now - don't give ISAF any ideas.

Cheers Dawg

See ya on the water

Shanghai Sailor

#72 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:29 AM


Catamarans represent about 80% of the boats on the beaches in the world and, lately they were not represented at the Olympics, now they want a cat for kids. How many over 18 are between 60kg and 70kg ?
At the same time they still have outdated shitty boats just because of some lobbies

The cats should have a 2 boats and no obligation of wathever for the crew.

1. An A cat, my favorite would be the DNA

2. A 18ft or a 20 ft.

- The 18ft is what most sailors race now. My favorite is the Cirrus R

- The 20 ft is the Rolls of the cats, the high performance and, IMO, should be at the Olympics. The Tornado has been the fastest, the safest, the strongest, for half a century. Now the M20 and the Nacra F20 are doing better.

My favorite would have been the F20. However I would have loved to see a competition between the M20, the F20 and the Tornado, all equipped with curved foils. The T revamped itself with the Spi, maybe it could still be the best with new curved foils.

All the above boats are top notch and high performance cats for the Olympics. Can you name me one 16ft ?


Is sounds like all you have said is the biggest beach cats are the best so if that creeps up to 23-25 foot and you need 2 Finn sailors that is excluding even more people yet your argument would say yes these are top notch high performace olympic boats.


Where did I say more than 20 ft ? and why would 20 ft exlude light weight ? A Tornado is athletic bust does not require heavy weight . And why would not it be possible to reef the sails if necessary.

#73 FishAintBiting

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 04:24 AM

ladies in mixed events in Olympic Sailing are not new, Cathy Foster helmed a 470 for GBR in Los Angeles I think it was.



If memory serves me correctly Paul Elvestrom sailed a tornado at two Olympics with his daughter.

It can be done :blink:

#74 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:27 PM

Crybabies...

Lose some weight...

#75 trenace

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:54 PM

I tend to suspect that not that many Olympic athletes are competing fat.

If anyone were being a crybaby, it would be those whining that they don't want to hit the weights and gain strength and the modest amount of added size they might need if the boats weren't being catered to the smaller-than-average.

#76 rule69

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:10 PM

... are probably too old to go racing a boat where weight is an influence.


What's age got to do with weight for elite athletes?

... BUT when the average weight of a male and a female is more than the max for a particular class you either a) disqualify a large percentage of capable sailors or B) you force on them what could be regimes that are dangerous to overall health.


Maybe, but that doesn't appear to be the case in the proposal.

A 5'10" male with a 23 BMI is 160 lbs.
A 5'4.5" female with a 22 BMI is 130 lbs.

I believe those are average heights in the US 20 to 25 year olds and centered "healthy" BMIs and their weight is right in the middle of the proposed range.

So, assuming I didn't cock up the maths (please check 'em) I don't see what your argument is. Are you suggesting that they ought to propose an Olympic boat for overweight people because the general population is overweight?

#77 I'moutahere

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:23 PM


... are probably too old to go racing a boat where weight is an influence.


What's age got to do with weight for elite athletes?

... BUT when the average weight of a male and a female is more than the max for a particular class you either a) disqualify a large percentage of capable sailors or B) you force on them what could be regimes that are dangerous to overall health.


Maybe, but that doesn't appear to be the case in the proposal.

A 5'10" male with a 23 BMI is 160 lbs.
A 5'4.5" female with a 22 BMI is 130 lbs.

I believe those are average heights in the US 20 to 25 year olds and centered "healthy" BMIs and their weight is right in the middle of the proposed range.

So, assuming I didn't cock up the maths (please check 'em) I don't see what your argument is. Are you suggesting that they ought to propose an Olympic boat for overweight people because the general population is overweight?


Most of the whingers are probably on a couple of Big Macs & a six pack for lunch every day.

#78 GBR1

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 09:55 PM

I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

#79 david r

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 10:56 PM

the facts don't support the accusations.


Threads like this are a mix of people spewing their emotions and some keen observations. i have no dog in this race. My chance to race the Tornado in the Olympics is long gone. i do like design though.
i thought the tone of the document in question was that they would like a cat that can be heavily mas-produced for a reasonable cost, that won't kill people if they hit a powerline, and has other various sailing requirements. There was a design competition aspect to it, i thought, as well.
There is a mention that the guidelines could be changed. That could mean if a reliable manufacturer comes up with a cat that they can build mass quantities well, but maybe doesn't meet all the guidelines, it could still be chosen. On the other hand the document did feel like they were trying to create a new class that would be safe from powerline hits, for younger sailors, that didn't require measuring in, and would, in the future, have numbers like the laser class around the world simply because it is the olympic cat. They used to pick a different windsurf board every 4 years, so it is a capitalist opportunity for manufacturers. Hopefully the cat version of this picture will end up being a good racing class for years to come though.

So possibly in the future, colleges and sailing clubs would have fleets of these new cats instead of lasers, leading to a majority of cat sailors in the sailing world. i'd be down with that.

using a conductive mast but isolating it from the shrouds and mast base as someone suggested is a good idea, but in need of some electrical-engineering.
a 2 piece wing- awesome, and tough to make light/cheap enough.


#80 rule69

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 12:05 AM

Isolation of Mast from Power Lines – The proposed equipment is to provide a measure of safety from inadvertent strikes of the mast to the overhead power lines.


Could this be as simple as using an anodized AL mast with non-conductive rigging (eg. spectra)? Or if using a carbon mast would a glass laminate on top be a sufficient measure of safety?

#81 ursus

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 12:08 AM

May I observe that the 49er mast is two piece?
This is not a new idea or very exotic.

And yes, it does have pluses and minuses.

#82 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 12:17 AM

I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

So now Isaf decides how much a competitor should weight ? and they are consistant to say it should be less than 70 kg, excepted for the Finn ?
As for the the commercial aspect, every cat builder knows that the big market for the youth is the 16ft now, they sell it by thousand to schools. But kids will grow and race on f18 and f20. Obviously it is a commercial decision and don't tell me there are no lobby in for the selection, you know it very well.
If isaf goes for a f16 they will look like idiots again.

#83 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 12:54 AM



ladies in mixed events in Olympic Sailing are not new, Cathy Foster helmed a 470 for GBR in Los Angeles I think it was.



If memory serves me correctly Paul Elvestrom sailed a tornado at two Olympics with his daughter.

It can be done :blink:

But it is not mandated.......Yet.

It's coming and you guys better start planning ahead and training the hot booties............ B)

#84 I'moutahere

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 01:04 AM


I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

So now Isaf decides how much a competitor should weight ? and they are consistant to say it should be less than 70 kg, excepted for the Finn ?
As for the the commercial aspect, every cat builder knows that the big market for the youth is the 16ft now, they sell it by thousand to schools. But kids will grow and race on f18 and f20. Obviously it is a commercial decision and don't tell me there are no lobby in for the selection, you know it very well.
If isaf goes for a f16 they will look like idiots again.


Is the weight mentioned mandated? Do crews have to weigh exactly what ISAF prescribe? No!. It is just a guide for the designers to work around. They (the designers) would be wasting their time designing for 2 x 100kg guys.

I think that you would still whinge whatever guidelines ISAF should lay down.

#85 Tcatman

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:35 AM



I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

So now Isaf decides how much a competitor should weight ? and they are consistant to say it should be less than 70 kg, excepted for the Finn ?
As for the the commercial aspect, every cat builder knows that the big market for the youth is the 16ft now, they sell it by thousand to schools. But kids will grow and race on f18 and f20. Obviously it is a commercial decision and don't tell me there are no lobby in for the selection, you know it very well.
If isaf goes for a f16 they will look like idiots again.


Is the weight mentioned mandated? Do crews have to weigh exactly what ISAF prescribe? No!. It is just a guide for the designers to work around. They (the designers) would be wasting their time designing for 2 x 100kg guys.

I think that you would still whinge whatever guidelines ISAF should lay down.


The Olympic Cat is for a tiny subset called MIXED.... the rest of the world is racing OPEN. (except for a few special events which are Mens and Woman's championships)

Hobie 16, F16, F18, A class and the open 20's cover the performance market place quite nicely for the Open teams.
So, the last thing the cat sailing world needs is another OD only class. These classes promote good turnouts at regattas... ISAF, please Don't screw this up!

We can only hope that the Olympic boat is some dead end boat which is only used in the Olympics and the ISAF grade I qualifying events for the handful of mixed teams who want the Olympic slot. The days of the Olympic catamaran as the biggest, baddest fastest cat are over.... (this is mixed after all) The public will look at the AC cup boats and sailors as the best of our niche of the sport.

Best idea that I have heard is an outdated F18 hull design with a Carbon insulated stick to fit the RFP and a smaller sailplan OD and provided boats at the Olympics. Nobody would choose this boat over the F18 class of boats. The F16 class can continue their growth without being influenced by the pro sailors aiming for the Olympics. The two ISAF 16 foot classes can be sold as the easy step ups to the Olympic boat! The design target crew weights should almost be the same. Finally, you can always put the standard F18 rig back on the platform and go race F18's as a mixed team..

#86 Windy6327

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:57 AM

er.... Fail..

Needs a two part mast so that it fits into a 20 foot container... (oh and saves the owners from electrocuting themselves)


Hobie 16 with USA comptip and a spin! is the ONLY boat in production today that fits their criteria....


It's too wide for a 20ft container (mine went in on a 25degree angle in a 40ft from Aus to Germany) and given that the trick to make a H16 platform stiff is to glue the beams into the mounts, you can't pull them apart...

#87 I'moutahere

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:19 AM




I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

So now Isaf decides how much a competitor should weight ? and they are consistant to say it should be less than 70 kg, excepted for the Finn ?
As for the the commercial aspect, every cat builder knows that the big market for the youth is the 16ft now, they sell it by thousand to schools. But kids will grow and race on f18 and f20. Obviously it is a commercial decision and don't tell me there are no lobby in for the selection, you know it very well.
If isaf goes for a f16 they will look like idiots again.


Is the weight mentioned mandated? Do crews have to weigh exactly what ISAF prescribe? No!. It is just a guide for the designers to work around. They (the designers) would be wasting their time designing for 2 x 100kg guys.

I think that you would still whinge whatever guidelines ISAF should lay down.


The Olympic Cat is for a tiny subset called MIXED.... the rest of the world is racing OPEN. (except for a few special events which are Mens and Woman's championships)

Hobie 16, F16, F18, A class and the open 20's cover the performance market place quite nicely for the Open teams.
So, the last thing the cat sailing world needs is another OD only class. These classes promote good turnouts at regattas... ISAF, please Don't screw this up!

We can only hope that the Olympic boat is some dead end boat which is only used in the Olympics and the ISAF grade I qualifying events for the handful of mixed teams who want the Olympic slot. The days of the Olympic catamaran as the biggest, baddest fastest cat are over.... (this is mixed after all) The public will look at the AC cup boats and sailors as the best of our niche of the sport.

Best idea that I have heard is an outdated F18 hull design with a Carbon insulated stick to fit the RFP and a smaller sailplan OD and provided boats at the Olympics. Nobody would choose this boat over the F18 class of boats. The F16 class can continue their growth without being influenced by the pro sailors aiming for the Olympics. The two ISAF 16 foot classes can be sold as the easy step ups to the Olympic boat! The design target crew weights should almost be the same. Finally, you can always put the standard F18 rig back on the platform and go race F18's as a mixed team..


You write as if ISAF was going to ban all other types and people will only be able to sail the proposed new class, if indeed the selected boat is a new design.

If the proposed new design proves popular - what the hell is wrong with that? History tells us that Olympic selection is often the kiss of death for a class.

#88 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:19 AM



I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

So now Isaf decides how much a competitor should weight ? and they are consistant to say it should be less than 70 kg, excepted for the Finn ?
As for the the commercial aspect, every cat builder knows that the big market for the youth is the 16ft now, they sell it by thousand to schools. But kids will grow and race on f18 and f20. Obviously it is a commercial decision and don't tell me there are no lobby in for the selection, you know it very well.
If isaf goes for a f16 they will look like idiots again.


Is the weight mentioned mandated? Do crews have to weigh exactly what ISAF prescribe? No!. It is just a guide for the designers to work around. They (the designers) would be wasting their time designing for 2 x 100kg guys.

I think that you would still whinge whatever guidelines ISAF should lay down.


And some hf you look to be representing isaf here and not VAST MAJORITY of cat sailors who want to insult them.

If they choose a good F18 with curved foils and enough volume, it could be a versatile cat, however it does not exist now..

The Olympic cat should be the best, the fastest, the most advanced. That is what made the T famous for half a century.

If the choose an 16ft they will make an ass of themselves and the joke of all serious cat sailors.

Tell me, have just sailed on a cat or are you a fat ass ? what serious cat sailor will be sailing a ridicule 16ft ?

#89 I'moutahere

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:32 AM




I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

So now Isaf decides how much a competitor should weight ? and they are consistant to say it should be less than 70 kg, excepted for the Finn ?
As for the the commercial aspect, every cat builder knows that the big market for the youth is the 16ft now, they sell it by thousand to schools. But kids will grow and race on f18 and f20. Obviously it is a commercial decision and don't tell me there are no lobby in for the selection, you know it very well.
If isaf goes for a f16 they will look like idiots again.


Is the weight mentioned mandated? Do crews have to weigh exactly what ISAF prescribe? No!. It is just a guide for the designers to work around. They (the designers) would be wasting their time designing for 2 x 100kg guys.

I think that you would still whinge whatever guidelines ISAF should lay down.


And some hf you look to be representing isaf here and not VAST MAJORITY of cat sailors who want to insult them.

If they choose a good F18 with curved foils and enough volume, it could be a versatile cat, however it does not exist now..

The Olympic cat should be the best, the fastest, the most advanced. That is what made the T famous for half a century.

If the choose an 16ft they will make an ass of themselves and the joke of all serious cat sailors.

Tell me, have just sailed on a cat or are you a fat ass ? what serious cat sailor will be sailing a ridicule 16ft ?


WTF? Are you trying to get ISAF to drop cats alltogether?

#90 Tcatman

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:08 AM

, if indeed the selected boat is a new design.

If the proposed new design proves popular - what the hell is wrong with that? History tells us that Olympic selection is often the kiss of death for a class.


If it's a new design... ergo it's a new class.... Initially populated by the mixed multihull teams... will the average joe's want to get involved???

What is wrong with popular... Nothing in a vacuum... I just don't see the need to carve up the existing racing fleets for a godforsaken Mixed competition. Hopefully the boat is very different then F18s or F16's.

History?.... Hopefully the Olympic carrot will take all of the fun out of the new class and it will remain the province of the Olympic teams. Nothing wrong with being a quirky Olympic niche...

ISAF could be clear on what they want from this boat... Grow the sport by being available to Asian and South American countries by being an easy step up/down from existing equipment (add a new rig to existing platform)... or a a boat as affordable and as simple as a laser but a multihull. or... The other extreme... The fastest XX sized boat that could be made?

I think the winning move is the first.. and an old F18 design with a small carbon rig would do the job...
Does anyone think the other two moves would grow the sport???

#91 GBR1

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:17 AM




I find that the accusations made that certain people might have tried to influence the weight range or the boat spec for personal gain to be pretty distasteful, particularly knowing a few of them. In addition, the facts don't support the accusations. There seems to me to be a total consistancy between the weight target of the womans skiff, the mixed cat and, say, existing classes such as the 49er. In addition, people should pay attention to the data posted by Rule 69 above. All told, the weight ranges suggested seem to come more from ISAF being consistant across their high performance boat range than from any commercial considerations.

So now Isaf decides how much a competitor should weight ? and they are consistant to say it should be less than 70 kg, excepted for the Finn ?
As for the the commercial aspect, every cat builder knows that the big market for the youth is the 16ft now, they sell it by thousand to schools. But kids will grow and race on f18 and f20. Obviously it is a commercial decision and don't tell me there are no lobby in for the selection, you know it very well.
If isaf goes for a f16 they will look like idiots again.


Is the weight mentioned mandated? Do crews have to weigh exactly what ISAF prescribe? No!. It is just a guide for the designers to work around. They (the designers) would be wasting their time designing for 2 x 100kg guys.

I think that you would still whinge whatever guidelines ISAF should lay down.


And some hf you look to be representing isaf here and not VAST MAJORITY of cat sailors who want to insult them.

If they choose a good F18 with curved foils and enough volume, it could be a versatile cat, however it does not exist now..

The Olympic cat should be the best, the fastest, the most advanced. That is what made the T famous for half a century.

If the choose an 16ft they will make an ass of themselves and the joke of all serious cat sailors.

Tell me, have just sailed on a cat or are you a fat ass ? what serious cat sailor will be sailing a ridicule 16ft ?

Why should the Olympic cat fit your definition? Is the Laser the best, fastest, most advanced? Yet anybody who thinks that the Laser shouldn't be in the Olympics fails to understand what drives the choice of classes. You show a real lack of understanding about what the IOC wants out of sailing and it isn't just the fastest etc. etc. Yes, they want some of that but they also use words like "accessable", "inclusive" plus they want equipment that is cheap, readily available mass produced and the same as everybody else uses outside of teh olympics. The worrying thing is that if it were left to the IOC, I think we would end up with the H16. It would suit them 100%. Hopefully, ISAF will ensure that doesn't happen.

#92 trenace

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:13 AM

Anyone wanting it to make sense, in ordinary people's terms, is I think hoping too much.

On the one hand you have the hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of viewers, who would probably find F20C's more exciting.

And then you have Olympic arguments about "accessibility" and affordability to Third World Countries, when in fact the cost of campaigning makes the cost difference between say an F20C and a Hobie 16 pretty irrelevant.

But oh, they get to feel good about themselves how "inclusive" they are being. And maybe they've acted according to personal conficts of interest and biases that may have been involved too (who'da thunk?)

Guess which weighs bigger.

#93 I'moutahere

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:19 AM

Anyone wanting it to make sense, in ordinary people's terms, is I think hoping too much.

On the one hand you have the hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of viewers, who would probably find F20C's more exciting.

And then you have Olympic arguments about "accessibility" and affordability to Third World Countries, when in fact the cost of campaigning makes the cost difference between say an F20C and a Hobie 16 pretty irrelevant.

But oh, they get to feel good about themselves how "inclusive" they are being. And maybe they've acted according to personal conficts of interest and biases that may have been involved too (who'da thunk?)

Guess which weighs bigger.


Your kidding yourself if you think any number of viewers will know the difference between a Hobie 14 and a Tornado, All they see is little white triangles in the distance. All that counts to Joe Public is medals.

#94 pontoon

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:22 AM

I found it very strange to have a 2 piece mast as a requirement, this would be the same as driving the Indy cars 500 against high tech cars with a chevy from 1970 or doing the Tour the France with a bike you can fould together.
It also would mean that if a F18 or F16 is the choise they are DOWN grading the choosen model.

No interest anymore in the whole Olympic multihull thing anymore .

Hans

#95 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 08:31 AM

Ideal Tornado crew weight is around the 140 to 150kg for 2 men, yes I know it was open but predominantly sailed by 2 x males. So, for a mixed crew, 120 to 140 for a male and a female sounds about right. We are talking lean, cut athletes, not sailors with muffin tops or beer guts,

I am a big fan of the T. The sweetest, most refined sloop cat I have ever sailed. If it was a male discipline, I would be all in favour for the big T. For mixed crew, a boat like the Viper would be a great choice. And if you think this 'little' 16 footer is not high performance, then you have not seen them go toe to toe with the F18s. You can really send them hard around the race course and challenge the most experienced sailor.

As a side note, if a Viper was chosen, then the countries who own boats could utilise them for both Olympics and Youth events by changing to a smaller rig for the Youth.

I think the guys making the decision actually have more of a realistic view on the weight range than most people here. And as mentioned above, this is a weight range to design around. If you want to be 150kg as a mixed crew, than you can be.

I think the real issue with the proposal is not with the designed weight range, but the 2 piece mast. As I think we all agree, it is a ridiculous proposal which will in reality, service few but cost all more than the savings using a 20 foot container.

#96 furling

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 08:58 AM

My 2 cents... The laser is done! it will be dropped or the ISAF will loose yet another event, who sais so, the viewing public sais so! Its viewing numbers are dropping rapidly as is the other events, the T`s wasnt! Now we have AC45`s and 72`s to compare, a hobie 16 or any 16 footer wont get enough viewer numbers to stand up against other olympic events, its a foolish choise..With the new viewer technology we can now see a huge difference between multihulls up close as the AC45 show has proven, and will continue to develop. Multihull sailers in general do not want a mixed event nor do they want a small cat, the focus will be on F18 and up for 2 up sailing, club cat sailers on F18 or larger cats will still have a Im better than you attitude like they have now and will be a far more capable sailer on a larger more complex cat like the T and the F20C, this will also put the mixed small cat ISAF event choise under threat, as there is only 1 gold medal... Would it not be better to have no cat event, over their current event that will fail ultimately. I for one will thoroughly enjoy bitch slapping a wannabe sailer in a H16 or simular in a shitty old I17... 1 or 2 up open or mixed...
I have no interest in the Olympic Multi thing any more also...

#97 GBR1

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 09:11 AM

And then you have Olympic arguments about "accessibility" and affordability to Third World Countries, when in fact the cost of campaigning makes the cost difference between say an F20C and a Hobie 16 pretty irrelevant.

Another misunderstanding. It isn't the cost of running a 1 boat campaign. Many of the new emerging sailing countries want classes that they can afford to go out and buy 10 or 20 boats. Then the cost of the boat becomes very relevent. this is why it is so hard to get rid of boats like the 470 as to "reseed" a country with a new class is very expensive and in many of these countries, money from their Olympic associations is only there if there are a minimum number of boats sailing in the country.

There seems to be a belief that what the IOC wants is the fastest, badest, most televisual classes possible. That is not so. Sure, they do want some of those but they also want classes that have big numbers in as many countries as possible, which is why the Laser will be almost impossible to get rid of from the Olympics. I suspect we will see it in for longer than the Star!

#98 Just Sail

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:38 AM

[/quote]Another misunderstanding. It isn't the cost of running a 1 boat campaign. Many of the new emerging sailing countries want classes that they can afford to go out and buy 10 or 20 boats. Then the cost of the boat becomes very relevent. this is why it is so hard to get rid of boats like the 470 as to "reseed" a country with a new class is very expensive and in many of these countries, money from their Olympic associations is only there if there are a minimum number of boats sailing in the country.

Using this argument it is difficult not to come to the conclusion that the Tornado should be the logical boat of choice.

#99 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:44 AM

My 2 cents... The laser is done! it will be dropped or the ISAF will loose yet another event, who sais so, the viewing public sais so! Its viewing numbers are dropping rapidly as is the other events, the T`s wasnt! Now we have AC45`s and 72`s to compare, a hobie 16 or any 16 footer wont get enough viewer numbers to stand up against other olympic events, its a foolish choise..With the new viewer technology we can now see a huge difference between multihulls up close as the AC45 show has proven, and will continue to develop. Multihull sailers in general do not want a mixed event nor do they want a small cat, the focus will be on F18 and up for 2 up sailing, club cat sailers on F18 or larger cats will still have a Im better than you attitude like they have now and will be a far more capable sailer on a larger more complex cat like the T and the F20C, this will also put the mixed small cat ISAF event choise under threat, as there is only 1 gold medal... Would it not be better to have no cat event, over their current event that will fail ultimately. I for one will thoroughly enjoy bitch slapping a wannabe sailer in a H16 or simular in a shitty old I17... 1 or 2 up open or mixed...
I have no interest in the Olympic Multi thing any more also...


Wow……

Firstly, viewing audience will be mostly sailors and could very likely be internet based. Your average Joe will very unlikely tune in.
Secondly, the Lasers are going nowhere. Some sailors actually like watching them race. They are not all crash and burn fanatics wanting only fast cats and skiffs. And obviously Laser sailing holds more relevance to the current sailing scene than Multies or Skiffs ever will.

As for a 16 foot high performance boat…. I have raced them and watch them race. Even a hard core sailor will get just as much enjoyment seeing these things sending it hard around a course as they would an 18 or 20 footer. Visually, there is not much difference to a seasoned HP cat racer let alone your average racer. On the race track, a Viper is very close in performance and handling to an F18. If you know your modern spinnaker sloops, you will know this.

The focus will not be on F18 + sailing. It will be focused on where the hottest competition will be. The F18s have hot competition, any Olympic class will also. There is more focus on Hobie 16 racing than there is on Nacra’s New F20.

F18 and larger cat sailors will not have an “I am better than you” attitude. Any cat sailor worth their salt recognises competitive classes / racing regardless of size. Those with the above attitude are just wanna be’s who probably race mixed class on faster cats because it is the only way they will beat someone.

“club cat sailers on F18….. Will be a far more capable sailer on a larger more complex cat like the T and the F20C” Ok, I have nothing to add to this comment. Obviously really lost touch with reality here. I am currently racing a 16’ Taipan 4.9 after many years jumping between F18s and Tornadoes. I will tell you this, the 4.9 is a LOT more flighty and a LOT more responsive. It punishes you more for your mistakes. If you have raced a T, you will know they have very good manners and are an armchair ride to sail. To squeeze the last couple of % out of them is very hard especially against an Olympic standard fleet.

As a cat sailor, do I want mixed…. It is better than nothing. I would probably agree it is better than open also. Ideally, separate male and female disciplines would be the ideal scenario, but we have not got that option. Work hard and we may for the next Olympic cycle. Mixed does have a marketing edge to it though could assist with ratings, sponsorship campaigns and would be great to get more females involved in cat sailing. Perhaps crossing over from other classes at an elite through to a novice level.

#100 furling

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:55 AM


And then you have Olympic arguments about "accessibility" and affordability to Third World Countries, when in fact the cost of campaigning makes the cost difference between say an F20C and a Hobie 16 pretty irrelevant.

Another misunderstanding. It isn't the cost of running a 1 boat campaign. Many of the new emerging sailing countries want classes that they can afford to go out and buy 10 or 20 boats. Then the cost of the boat becomes very relevent. this is why it is so hard to get rid of boats like the 470 as to "reseed" a country with a new class is very expensive and in many of these countries, money from their Olympic associations is only there if there are a minimum number of boats sailing in the country.

There seems to be a belief that what the IOC wants is the fastest, badest, most televisual classes possible. That is not so. Sure, they do want some of those but they also want classes that have big numbers in as many countries as possible, which is why the Laser will be almost impossible to get rid of from the Olympics. I suspect we will see it in for longer than the Star!


The fact that the Laser is sailed in big numbers does not mean that it will get the required viewer numbers to remain as an olympic event, a boat that may be popular with sailers may not be popular with viewers such is the case with the Laser and more so with the Star. The IOC must act within these guide lines reguardless and pass this information onto the ISAF which they have done so in the form of a Warning! If the ISAF chooses to ignore this, as they have done so for years then it is the ISAF that shall relinquish more of their events to other olympic events which is what has just happened...DOH! The IOC does NOT put forward an event, it does not say if the Laser is to remain, that decision lies with the general viewer popularity whom the vast majority arent even sailers..The ISAF needs to read what is needed to appease their audience and supply an event that suits this. I surely doubt a mixed 16fter will achieve this..In fact it wont even come close..




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