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J-70, NEXT GREAT SPORTY?


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#1 not growing up

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:16 PM

Interested in info and opinions on the soon -to- sail J-70. Anyone seen one? How 'bout some specs? ( SA, rig plan, beam, disp etc ) Website has only "teaser " info. Next great sporty or just another entrant in an overcrowded field? UNLEASH THE HOUNDS!

#2 Mike in CT

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:24 PM

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=122448

#3 ultraracer613um

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:30 PM

Think it's going to be a nice little boat.... probably have a lot of J80 sailors jumping down into something they can tow around.

here's the kicker for me made in china ... absolute deal killer. WTF J-boats. Their building J80's over there too...

#4 Jambalaya

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:36 PM

Think it's going to be a nice little boat.... probably have a lot of J80 sailors jumping down into something they can tow around.

here's the kicker for me made in china ... absolute deal killer. WTF J-boats. Their building J80's over there too...

You need to look around your house and workplace for all the stuff made in China, if you took it away there would be lots of gaps.

McConnaghy make some very nice yachts in China, I don't hear too many negative comments about the all carbon Mach-2 Foiling Moth. Melges decided to make their 20 in Cina but the volumes sold weren't high enough so production came back to Zenda where they do indeed make very very nice boats.

There are threads in Sportsboats and J-Anarchy

#5 Jerryd

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 02:23 PM

Interested in info and opinions on the soon -to- sail J-70. Anyone seen one? How 'bout some specs? ( SA, rig plan, beam, disp etc ) Website has only "teaser " info. Next great sporty or just another entrant in an overcrowded field? UNLEASH THE HOUNDS!


Thread on this subject is on the second page of the Sport Boat Anarchy.

#6 couchsurfer

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:09 PM

Interested in info and opinions on the soon -to- sail J-70. Anyone seen one? How 'bout some specs? ( SA, rig plan, beam, disp etc ) Website has only "teaser " info. Next great sporty or just another entrant in an overcrowded field? UNLEASH THE HOUNDS!

..sorry 'NGU',,you're going t'have t'wear the hat-of-shame for one day
,,,use search next time <_<

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#7 Jambalaya

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 04:29 PM

Sometimes you need an erudite argument to make a point. Other times a turd-hat does nicely.

not growing up so you've now read the J-Anarchy thread linked to above and the one here in Sportsboats, what do you think of the boat ?

#8 Sailabout

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 04:59 PM


Think it's going to be a nice little boat.... probably have a lot of J80 sailors jumping down into something they can tow around.

here's the kicker for me made in china ... absolute deal killer. WTF J-boats. Their building J80's over there too...

You need to look around your house and workplace for all the stuff made in China, if you took it away there would be lots of gaps.

McConnaghy make some very nice yachts in China, I don't hear too many negative comments about the all carbon Mach-2 Foiling Moth. Melges decided to make their 20 in Cina but the volumes sold weren't high enough so production came back to Zenda where they do indeed make very very nice boats.

There are threads in Sportsboats and J-Anarchy


There is a difference to a foreign factory making boats in china and chinese boats ( although saying that Hudson ( who is Tiawanese) is quite comitted to doing a world class job)

#9 not growing up

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:28 PM

Sometimes you need an erudite argument to make a point. Other times a turd-hat does nicely.

not growing up so you've now read the J-Anarchy thread linked to above and the one here in Sportsboats, what do you think of the boat ?

I obviously didn't search enough to " see " that there is a whole category devoted to J- boats. My Bad! Past that, my sense is that the J-70 MAY be just the ticket when it comes to the general concept in sailing now that less really can be more. I just want more details and the opinion of others.

#10 ultraracer613um

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:45 PM

Quality does not concern me.. throw enough .25/hr workers at something, have the government subsidize your NET loss and anythings possible. It's just too bad that in our free society businesses are penalized for manufacturing product. But shame on Jboat's for not building these things state-side or at least in a country that doesn't hate us. Hard to not buy bits and pieces large corporations buy en mass from the people's republic.... but that's going to have to change or we're in for a real shock. enough i guess. Buy your chinese Jboat, Hu Jinto needs some more missiles.



Think it's going to be a nice little boat.... probably have a lot of J80 sailors jumping down into something they can tow around.

here's the kicker for me made in china ... absolute deal killer. WTF J-boats. Their building J80's over there too...

You need to look around your house and workplace for all the stuff made in China, if you took it away there would be lots of gaps.

McConnaghy make some very nice yachts in China, I don't hear too many negative comments about the all carbon Mach-2 Foiling Moth. Melges decided to make their 20 in Cina but the volumes sold weren't high enough so production came back to Zenda where they do indeed make very very nice boats.

There are threads in Sportsboats and J-Anarchy


There is a difference to a foreign factory making boats in china and chinese boats ( although saying that Hudson ( who is Tiawanese) is quite comitted to doing a world class job)



#11 Jambalaya

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:41 PM


Sometimes you need an erudite argument to make a point. Other times a turd-hat does nicely.

not growing up so you've now read the J-Anarchy thread linked to above and the one here in Sportsboats, what do you think of the boat ?

I obviously didn't search enough to " see " that there is a whole category devoted to J- boats. My Bad! Past that, my sense is that the J-70 MAY be just the ticket when it comes to the general concept in sailing now that less really can be more. I just want more details and the opinion of others.

The main thread on the J/70 was started by ultra racer right here

#12 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:53 PM

LOL!


Interested in info and opinions on the soon -to- sail J-70. Anyone seen one? How 'bout some specs? ( SA, rig plan, beam, disp etc ) Website has only "teaser " info. Next great sporty or just another entrant in an overcrowded field? UNLEASH THE HOUNDS!

..sorry 'NGU',,you're going t'have t'wear the hat-of-shame for one day
,,,use search next time <_<

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...maybe this'll help you grow-up :)



#13 Jambalaya

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:58 PM

DoRag.jpg - excellent

#14 akaGP

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:19 PM

Quality does not concern me.. throw enough .25/hr workers at something, have the government subsidize your NET loss and anythings possible. It's just too bad that in our free society businesses are penalized for manufacturing product. But shame on Jboat's for not building these things state-side or at least in a country that doesn't hate us.

How does one inanimate object "hate" another? Has there been a SCOUS ruling redefining countries as entities legally capable of "hate"?

Hard to not buy bits and pieces large corporations buy en mass from the people's republic.... but that's going to have to change or we're in for a real shock. enough i guess. Buy your chinese Jboat, Hu Jinto needs some more missiles.

Get a clue ! After decades of being far behind in defense spending PRC, has increased its defense budget. However, in comparison to the U.S. defense budget increase of ~19.6 billion dollars the total increase for the rest of the world was ~1 billion dollars, or only 0.1%.
Posted Image





Think it's going to be a nice little boat.... probably have a lot of J80 sailors jumping down into something they can tow around.

here's the kicker for me made in china ... absolute deal killer. WTF J-boats. Their They are building J80's over there too...

You need to look around your house and workplace for all the stuff made in China, if you took it away there would be lots of gaps.

McConnaghy make some very nice yachts in China, I don't hear too many negative comments about the all carbon Mach-2 Foiling Moth. Melges decided to make their 20 in Cina but the volumes sold weren't high enough so production came back to Zenda where they do indeed make very very nice boats.

There are threads in Sportsboats and J-Anarchy


There is a difference to a foreign factory making boats in china and chinese boats ( although saying that Hudson ( who is Tiawanese Taiwanese) is quite comitted committed to doing a world class job)



#15 frayedsheet

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:54 PM

Quality does not concern me.. throw enough .25/hr workers at something, have the government subsidize your NET loss and anythings possible. It's just too bad that in our free society businesses are penalized for manufacturing product. But shame on Jboat's for not building these things state-side or at least in a country that doesn't hate us. Hard to not buy bits and pieces large corporations buy en mass from the people's republic.... but that's going to have to change or we're in for a real shock. enough i guess. Buy your chinese Jboat, Hu Jinto needs some more missiles.




Think it's going to be a nice little boat.... probably have a lot of J80 sailors jumping down into something they can tow around.

here's the kicker for me made in china ... absolute deal killer. WTF J-boats. Their building J80's over there too...

You need to look around your house and workplace for all the stuff made in China, if you took it away there would be lots of gaps.

McConnaghy make some very nice yachts in China, I don't hear too many negative comments about the all carbon Mach-2 Foiling Moth. Melges decided to make their 20 in Cina but the volumes sold weren't high enough so production came back to Zenda where they do indeed make very very nice boats.

There are threads in Sportsboats and J-Anarchy


There is a difference to a foreign factory making boats in china and chinese boats ( although saying that Hudson ( who is Tiawanese) is quite comitted to doing a world class job)


bahahaha!!!

leave your politics and weird texan views out of sailboat reviewing. You really are perpetuating the texan stereotype... watch the latest Southpark to see what the rest of the US and the world thinks of your narrow-mindedness.

#16 Conny71

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 01:39 AM

Why increase spending when our government gives it to them for free?

#17 jim lee

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:10 AM

So NGU, what is exactly you are seeing on this new J70 that is so alluring to you? What is it that makes this article unique?

-jim lee

#18 not growing up

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 01:07 PM

So NGU, what is exactly you are seeing on this new J70 that is so alluring to you? What is it that makes this article unique?

-jim lee

Jim Lee, What I THINK I see is the best blend, so far , of the features that many sailors want. Will it be the fastest? No. Will it plane in 10 kts? No. It seems to have the good qualities of the J80 ( mostly the huge cockpit ) but everything else is less, which is really more. Less cost, less effort to launch/travel, less effort on handling the sailplan, less of the never-ending crew problem. It is probably big enough,fast enough and cool enough but MUCH easier to enjoy. Notice how many builders/designers are scaling DOWN rather than up? They see the trend going that way. Bigger is not always better - look at the Melges 32. Some of my 24 friends went that way and came back. It was just too much of everything. I also hope that this design will catch on bigtime for racing as sailors of older bigger boats will downsize. I think it will do what the Melges 20 tried to do, so far with little success. I've been wrong before!

#19 André

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 01:13 PM

So NGU, what is exactly you are seeing on this new J70 that is so alluring to you? What is it that makes this article unique?

-jim lee


1) Price tag of 45k including sails and trailer 2) draft less than 5 ft.

#20 Mambo Kings

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:03 PM


So NGU, what is exactly you are seeing on this new J70 that is so alluring to you? What is it that makes this article unique?

-jim lee

Jim Lee, What I THINK I see is the best blend, so far , of the features that many sailors want. Will it be the fastest? No. Will it plane in 10 kts? No. It seems to have the good qualities of the J80 ( mostly the huge cockpit ) but everything else is less, which is really more. Less cost, less effort to launch/travel, less effort on handling the sailplan, less of the never-ending crew problem. It is probably big enough,fast enough and cool enough but MUCH easier to enjoy. Notice how many builders/designers are scaling DOWN rather than up? They see the trend going that way. Bigger is not always better - look at the Melges 32. Some of my 24 friends went that way and came back. It was just too much of everything. I also hope that this design will catch on bigtime for racing as sailors of older bigger boats will downsize. I think it will do what the Melges 20 tried to do, so far with little success. I've been wrong before!


Whhoooa, wait a minute. I thought you didn't know anything about this boat. A few posts up, you are asking if anyone has any information on this boat.

Do you work for a J Boat dealer?

Then to say "What the Melges 20 has tried to do, so far with little success". I'm a Viper addict and I will acknowledge that the Melges 20 fleet has been growing steadily, putting together some nice regattas and owns the ltd-hiking niche in North America.

If you're going to pimp the J70, do it in a positive upfront way. It looks an interesting concept. Its priced right. Let's see how it sails.
Dont tarnish it with trolling.

I'm thinking it time for another multi boat demo of the sporty 20s.

#21 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:19 PM

I'll tell you what is so compelling about the J/70:

Despite all the new sporties, the Melges 24 is still the world's best all-around one-design sportboat for reasons that don't need to be reiterated here.
Melges is busy spending their marketing dollars and time pimping M32s and M20s.
Melges 24 style hiking is something that few folks want to have to do outside the fleet.
New Melges 24s are really freakin' expensive - like 60k+ with zero options.


J/Boats is being SMART. The J/70 is more of a copy of a M24 than anything else on the market. Look at the spec and you'll see, and remember that 7 meters is 22.96 feet, and that 45k is a lot cheaper than 60+.

And then there's J/boats marketing abilities, which are just damned good.

#22 couchsurfer

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:44 PM

I'll tell you what is so compelling about the J/70:
.....blah blah.........
.....And then there's J/boats marketing abilities, which are just damned good.


...looks unmatcheable with yew and NQR on th'payroll <_< :rolleyes:

#23 Jambalaya

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:50 PM

I'll tell you what is so compelling about the J/70:

Despite all the new sporties, the Melges 24 is still the world's best all-around one-design sportboat for reasons that don't need to be reiterated here.
Melges is busy spending their marketing dollars and time pimping M32s and M20s.
Melges 24 style hiking is something that few folks want to have to do outside the fleet.
New Melges 24s are really freakin' expensive - like 60k+ with zero options.


J/Boats is being SMART. The J/70 is more of a copy of a M24 than anything else on the market. Look at the spec and you'll see, and remember that 7 meters is 22.96 feet, and that 45k is a lot cheaper than 60+.

And then there's J/boats marketing abilities, which are just damned good.

A new Melges 20 is $80,000 delivered to Italy with sails and trailer taxes paid. I daren't ask about a 24. Fortunately there are plenty used available. Melges make a very nice product but selling any new boat in 2011/12 takes a special effort.

There is a lot of bitching about inward facing no-hike but it's increasingly popular

#24 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:50 PM

A new Melges 20 is $80,000 delivered to Italy with sails and trailer taxes paid. I daren't ask about a 24. Fortunately there are plenty used available. Melges make a very nice product but selling any new boat in 2011/12 takes a special effort.

There is a lot of bitching about inward facing no-hike but it's increasingly popular


Holy fuck! even more amazing that they have 30-40 boats at all the big Euro regattas. M20 is significantly cheaper here but there doesn't seem to be quite the traction as in southern EU.

Problem in the states for the M24 is that there are just so damned few used M24s available because fucking Euros have been taking advantage of the dollar's weakness to steal them all and ship them over to the EU and eastern Europe!

#25 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:51 PM


I'll tell you what is so compelling about the J/70:
.....blah blah.........
.....And then there's J/boats marketing abilities, which are just damned good.


...looks unmatcheable with yew and NQR on th'payroll <_< :rolleyes:


I wish! You think that comes with health insurance?

#26 not growing up

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:09 PM



So NGU, what is exactly you are seeing on this new J70 that is so alluring to you? What is it that makes this article unique?

-jim lee

Jim Lee, What I THINK I see is the best blend, so far , of the features that many sailors want. Will it be the fastest? No. Will it plane in 10 kts? No. It seems to have the good qualities of the J80 ( mostly the huge cockpit ) but everything else is less, which is really more. Less cost, less effort to launch/travel, less effort on handling the sailplan, less of the never-ending crew problem. It is probably big enough,fast enough and cool enough but MUCH easier to enjoy. Notice how many builders/designers are scaling DOWN rather than up? They see the trend going that way. Bigger is not always better - look at the Melges 32. Some of my 24 friends went that way and came back. It was just too much of everything. I also hope that this design will catch on bigtime for racing as sailors of older bigger boats will downsize. I think it will do what the Melges 20 tried to do, so far with little success. I've been wrong before!


Whhoooa, wait a minute. I thought you didn't know anything about this boat. A few posts up, you are asking if anyone has any information on this boat.

Do you work for a J Boat dealer?

Then to say "What the Melges 20 has tried to do, so far with little success". I'm a Viper addict and I will acknowledge that the Melges 20 fleet has been growing steadily, putting together some nice regattas and owns the ltd-hiking niche in North America.

If you're going to pimp the J70, do it in a positive upfront way. It looks an interesting concept. Its priced right. Let's see how it sails.
Dont tarnish it with trolling.

I'm thinking it time for another multi boat demo of the sporty 20s.

Yo Mambo, I only know what I read, which isn't enough. If I worked for J Boats, I wouldn't have to ask on-line. I would know.

#27 Mambo Kings

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:11 PM

I'll tell you what is so compelling about the J/70:

Despite all the new sporties, the Melges 24 is still the world's best all-around one-design sportboat for reasons that don't need to be reiterated here.
Melges is busy spending their marketing dollars and time pimping M32s and M20s.
Melges 24 style hiking is something that few folks want to have to do outside the fleet.
New Melges 24s are really freakin' expensive - like 60k+ with zero options.


J/Boats is being SMART. The J/70 is more of a copy of a M24 than anything else on the market. Look at the spec and you'll see, and remember that 7 meters is 22.96 feet, and that 45k is a lot cheaper than 60+.

And then there's J/boats marketing abilities, which are just damned good.


J Boats is being smart.

But I dont think the Melges 24 has anything to worry about. Someone thinking about buying a M24 is not going to be influenced by $15,000

"Hmmm let me think,one choice has 500 + boats out there, sail against some of the best sportboat talent in the world right now, worlds in San Francisco will be hollerin, jump in to arse kickin racing right away.......or I could just save myself $15k and wait to see if this new fleet could grow" Nah. The new J70 owners will not be coming from prospective Melges 24 owners.

But the J80 fleet is probably wondering what J Boats is up to. The J80 got a positive kick from the amazing worlds in Newport. Several of its local fleets are in growth phase. J80 Class organization making all the right moves (Charleston Race Week etc) But I wonder if they see the J70 and remember J Boats tendency to eat its own young when the sales slow down.

J boats sees the M20 snagging some of its J80 offspring and wants to keep some of it in the family.

#28 jim lee

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 06:06 AM

So NGU, what is exactly you are seeing on this new J70 that is so alluring to you? What is it that makes this article unique?-jim lee

Jim Lee, What I THINK I see is the best blend, so far , of the features that many sailors want. Will it be the fastest? No. Will it plane in 10 kts? No. It seems to have the good qualities of the J80 ( mostly the huge cockpit ) but everything else is less, which is really more. Less cost, less effort to launch/travel, less effort on handling the sailplan, less of the never-ending crew problem. It is probably big enough,fast enough and cool enough but MUCH easier to enjoy. Notice how many builders/designers are scaling DOWN rather than up? They see the trend going that way. Bigger is not always better - look at the Melges 32. Some of my 24 friends went that way and came back. It was just too much of everything. I also hope that this design will catch on bigtime for racing as sailors of older bigger boats will downsize. I think it will do what the Melges 20 tried to do, so far with little success. I've been wrong before!


Ok..

not the fastest - Fine..
has big cockpit - Don't all the sporties have big cockpits?
less expensive - Do we really know this for sure?
less effort to launch/travel - Less than what? What is the launch/travel baseline you are using?
less effort to handle sailplan - Seriously, I didn't know this was an issue. Again, what is your baseline for difficult sailplans?
less crew problem - How is this boat going to change crew problems?
MUCH easier to enjoy - Again what unenjoyable boat are you comparing this to?

I donno'. I look at the current crop of sport boats and I just don't see these issues. As far as I can tell, they are pretty much all fun and easy to handle. Sure some are pretty pricey, but there's always used ones available of all the favorite flavors.

The line about J boats "eating their young" cracked me up! Exactly what happened to the J/35. Great boat that. I was given a J boat coffee table book. J/24 to modern day, all the history, pix bla bla bla. The J/35 was almost not mentioned at all. Like they were hiding its existence. Weird.

-jim lee

-jim lee

#29 Kent H

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 09:24 AM

If the production turns out a lower cost to J Boats that opens up a few opportunites to low ball in some areas if the exchange rate does not change. However my take is that they do sell some boats in North America initially but that the J70's main sales happen in the Asian, Middle East and Australian markets where exchange rates, combined with lower costs make fleet sales extremely easy.


Sorry but I just don't hear or read where US / Canadian sailors are screaming with their wallets open for a new 23 foot sport boat that looks like this one. Does anyone think they could get five people at their club or race organization to buy this boat in this economy? I just do not see North America as buying a lot of these boats.

#30 GybeSet®

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:51 AM

.
Kent won't happen in AUS

the tiny sails would make you look kinda conspicuous like sailing around with a reef tucked in, the Sabot kids would laugh & pull funny faces at you

seriously though

our 'new' boat market is not firing and on the pre-loved lot a bunch of faster T's, E's and even M's at about 1/2 the coin





#31 junta

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 03:06 PM

big cockpit, cabin, easy to handle sailplan, no droop hiking, it's called the Ultimate 20.

#32 Mambo Kings

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 04:49 PM

not the fastest - Fine..
has big cockpit - Don't all the sporties have big cockpits?
less expensive - Do we really know this for sure?
less effort to launch/travel - Less than what? What is the launch/travel baseline you are using?
less effort to handle sailplan - Seriously, I didn't know this was an issue. Again, what is your baseline for difficult sailplans?
less crew problem - How is this boat going to change crew problems?
MUCH easier to enjoy - Again what unenjoyable boat are you comparing this to?

I donno'. I look at the current crop of sport boats and I just don't see these issues. As far as I can tell, they are pretty much all fun and easy to handle. Sure some are pretty pricey, but there's always used ones available of all the favorite flavors.

The line about J boats "eating their young" cracked me up! Exactly what happened to the J/35. Great boat that. I was given a J boat coffee table book. J/24 to modern day, all the history, pix bla bla bla. The J/35 was almost not mentioned at all. Like they were hiding its existence. Weird.

-jim lee

-jim lee


Jim,

The benchmark might be the J80, not other sporties.

J Boats probably doesnt want to see its audience migrate to other manufacturers.

MK

#33 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 05:34 PM

But I dont think the Melges 24 has anything to worry about. Someone thinking about buying a M24 is not going to be influenced by $15,000


You're wrong there. Initial cost outlay is a big deal, especially now that the US M24 class has embraced a more low-cost, less Grand Prix approach to its racing. Only the top 5% of the fleet is buying new sails for big events these days, if that. Very, very few boats have paid pros aboard. They do have plenty of Cat 3s, but that tends to be because the pros like racing M24s more than almost anything because of the quality of the racing and the level of the fleet.

But what is more important is the fact that a sporty like the M24 is no longer 'extreme' like it once was, so that opens the door to the J/105, J/80, J/120 owners that want to race "modern" one-designs without being spat out the back like they would be for the first few years in the M24 fleet, and without making their families/friends blow their nerves out hiking M24 style.

#34 GybeSet®

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 07:31 PM

Clean can you confirm that the J/ upwind sails are smaller than a u20 or sb3, can it be so ?

can you 'say' the real price of a m24, trailer with all the options necessary for racing

or will this be a 'secret' SW and Scuttlebutt style

quoting misleading sticker prices is BS, man up

#35 EYESAILOR

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 04:54 PM

Frankly, we are potential audience for the J70 and I am very interested to see what they bring to the table.

We were never potential buyers for the M24. I agree with what Clean says, and it is interesting to see some M24s being raced by families at some of the clubs in the North East. But at the end of the day there is this sense that it is too much of a program for us.

The SB3 caught our fancy. We demoed it. But it never got any traction.
The M20 was a bit of a disappointment after the hype.It also seems to require a program to do well.
The Viper has got a lot of traction where we live. We like the people.They do a lot for sailing in our corner of the world. But it's not the boat for us (Uh Oh....here they come!)
The J70 seems like an easier,smaller, faster, modern take on what J Boats does well. It could fit the bill.

Unlike the crazies who sign up to buy boats before they have sailed them, the EYE will be waiting until we have had a chance to sail it before we form a judgment.

The two question marks in my eye are:-

1) Is it arriving too late? Have most people like us jumped off the fence into one of the new classes. Can it compete with the rebirth of the M24 as a reasonably priced used boat sailed by average people? Bottom line, will it get traction?
2) How many will it take to sail? Our personal ideal is 3 or max of 4.

#36 gdavid

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 06:32 PM

Why is this boat being mentioned and compared to the 20 footers? An additional 3' on a boat this small is a big difference. It also has higher sides and a cabin. I think this boat is aimed at the less extreme/agressive/athletic crowd that likes the idea of a small fun but easy to manage boat but sees the 20's too much like dinghies. This audience isn't ready to get rid of a cabin completely, it just seems doesn't seem right to them for some reason. There are some older sailers out in the melges and vipers that are having a great time but I think they are kind of the exception and not the rule. J boats have established their products as forgiving and managable. Why is J boats going after a less agressive, conservative racer? well because they tend to have more money and buy new boats. Baby boomers are coming into retirement with free time and looking for something fun to sail on without wrecking their budget. They are also very established which creates buyer confidence and high resale value vs smaller companies. In my opinion if Jboats was selling the dart as the J81 you would see a crapload of them on the water by now.

#37 jmart

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 06:33 PM

As an outsider looking in, is this really tagetted more to the J-22/J-24 owner, and represents the evolution of that style boat, or is J really targeting the M-24?

It doen't seem to traget the Viper or the M-20, at least from what I see. This looks to me like J closing the chapters on the 70's-80's era 22/24 models and evolving into the 21st century sportboat market. They are looking at introducing something a little smaller, easier on the wallet,. maybe something easier to race at the club level and something a little more family friendly than an all-out sport boat, all the while being easier to tow/operate/maintain than the J-80, but introduce a smaller offering at the 20-footer end of the market with a current gen sport boat.

#38 EYESAILOR

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 06:59 PM

Why is this boat being mentioned and compared to the 20 footers? An additional 3' on a boat this small is a big difference. It also has higher sides and a cabin. I think this boat is aimed at the less extreme/agressive/athletic crowd that likes the idea of a small fun but easy to manage boat but sees the 20's too much like dinghies. This audience isn't ready to get rid of a cabin completely, it just seems doesn't seem right to them for some reason. There are some older sailers out in the melges and vipers that are having a great time but I think they are kind of the exception and not the rule. J boats have established their products as forgiving and managable. Why is J boats going after a less agressive, conservative racer? well because they tend to have more money and buy new boats. Baby boomers are coming into retirement with free time and looking for something fun to sail on without wrecking their budget. They are also very established which creates buyer confidence and high resale value vs smaller companies. In my opinion if Jboats was selling the dart as the J81 you would see a crapload of them on the water by now.


Apart from the bit about "more money", that's me in a nutshell.

Us baby boomers have become very money conscious. House is worth less. 401K is worth less. We want to retire at some stage. So a smaller boat program starts to seem very attractive. Two working professionals, so we can afford to do it right, but there are other priories as well.

Don't underestimate the potential appeal of the M20 and the SB3. The cabin is more or less irrelevant except as a place to keep clothes dry. The SB3 did not get traction in North America but it checked a lot of the boxes. The M20 was a lot more expensive but (for me) not much better. It seems to have gone down the grand prix program route which was not to our taste and, at the end of the day, its a matter of personal choice. I sailed it twice and just did not dig it. Lots do like it (especially Italians) and that's great.

Also the right boat does have to be fast and exciting. If we wanted a Sonar or a J22, we would get one. Fast, exciting. Forgiving, manageable. Bring it on.

#39 GybeSet®

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 07:24 PM

Why is this boat being mentioned and compared to the 20 footers? An additional 3' on a boat this small is a big difference. It also has higher sides and a cabin.

you got it !

they always are confused in here which is fairly frustrating, even more 'ludicrous' is comparing say a Dart or t8 sized boat with the V,SB3, m20, which happens here also

I guess in OZ we are quite aware of this because ours is a mixed fleet!
you may have the odd buyer that might consider either a no-cab 20-ish and a cabbed 23 but generally NOT , they know whether they want a sans-cab dinghy Upsize .. or a superlight yacht Downsize
(apparent yacht that is, will still perform like the lightweights)

we would loosely have 3 size groups the <20-21s> ; <the 23s>* ; & <26s> // split again into two types: Cab/No-cab

The 23s because the market offered e7s, T7s, bs23s etc, the m24 would fall in this group

The 26s because going back 7.80m was the old trailer yacht maximum LOA in NZ at least as far back as the 80s, again the market offered E780s, Y780s, Ross780s, this is now 8m or a tad over 26',

again cannot compare the two larger groups although the magic25 kinda fits 'tween ,
The j/70 would fall into the middle group

#40 jrpytlak

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 08:14 PM

I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

#41 Jambalaya

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:13 PM

I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80

#42 gdavid

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:56 PM


I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


I'd rather have a deck mounted pole or at least some other sealing mechanism than the 80's for offshore. Offshore is possible in an 80 but not my idea of fun.

#43 GybeSet®

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:47 AM

I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

with the bulb at a VERY healthy 1287 lbs, 6 feet down and full width (chine) form stability, the Tiger 7.5 would outdo both the Antrim and j/80 for offshore stability !

" Draft is 6 feet and the keel fin is GRP and carbon fiber over foam with a steel box beam supporting a 1,287 pound flattened elliptical bulb"
this is far more (50% odd) than the u24

the j/80 has a little more ballast than the Tiger but
  • it's swung at a shallow draft so LESS righting moment,
  • the form stability is arguably much LESS and the
  • mast is alloy resulting again in LESS stability whilst heeled or whilst spreaders are wet

the Tiger is the oft-overlooked boat in the Stable Sportboat category for sure, more RM than MORC or 1/4 tonners of yore i'd suggest

Tiger easy

------------------------------------------

note ALSO the leftcoast Dart has more bulb swung lower that the U24

.

#44 crash

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 02:49 PM


So NGU, what is exactly you are seeing on this new J70 that is so alluring to you? What is it that makes this article unique?-jim lee

Jim Lee, What I THINK I see is the best blend, so far , of the features that many sailors want. Will it be the fastest? No. Will it plane in 10 kts? No. It seems to have the good qualities of the J80 ( mostly the huge cockpit ) but everything else is less, which is really more. Less cost, less effort to launch/travel, less effort on handling the sailplan, less of the never-ending crew problem. It is probably big enough,fast enough and cool enough but MUCH easier to enjoy. Notice how many builders/designers are scaling DOWN rather than up? They see the trend going that way. Bigger is not always better - look at the Melges 32. Some of my 24 friends went that way and came back. It was just too much of everything. I also hope that this design will catch on bigtime for racing as sailors of older bigger boats will downsize. I think it will do what the Melges 20 tried to do, so far with little success. I've been wrong before!


Ok..

not the fastest - Fine..
has big cockpit - Don't all the sporties have big cockpits?
less expensive - Do we really know this for sure?
less effort to launch/travel - Less than what? What is the launch/travel baseline you are using?
less effort to handle sailplan - Seriously, I didn't know this was an issue. Again, what is your baseline for difficult sailplans?
less crew problem - How is this boat going to change crew problems?
MUCH easier to enjoy - Again what unenjoyable boat are you comparing this to?

I donno'. I look at the current crop of sport boats and I just don't see these issues. As far as I can tell, they are pretty much all fun and easy to handle. Sure some are pretty pricey, but there's always used ones available of all the favorite flavors.

The line about J boats "eating their young" cracked me up! Exactly what happened to the J/35. Great boat that. I was given a J boat coffee table book. J/24 to modern day, all the history, pix bla bla bla. The J/35 was almost not mentioned at all. Like they were hiding its existence. Weird.

-jim lee

-jim lee


JIm,
A couple of thoughts...

I don't think the J/70 is baselined against the current crop of sportboats. That's not really the niche they are aiming at. I htink they ar aiming at two groups. One is a guy like me that that is tired of trying to round up 8 guys to race his 30 ft PHRF leadmine. I don't planing is not a priority item for me. I think it'll be fun when the boat gets on a plane, but I'm happy from a speed standpoint with my S2 9.1. I'm just tired of the crew hassle. I also want to be able to start going to events like KWRW, or CRW, and the effort to get a 30 footer like the S-2 there, and crew, etc is too much. So we don't go. A ramp launchable, easily trailered boat makes doing events like that much executable....Sail-handling. Again, my benchmark is the 9.1. I really only need 5 or 6 to crew it...but PHRF allows 8, and if I don't stack the rail I suffer once the wind is up over say 12+. The small jib/sprit combo is hard to beat from a sail-handling standpoint, esp, with less experienced or junior crew. Yes many sporties have this...but by their nature they are somewhat more athletic/aggressive...traits I'm not necessarily after. Finally, J has credibility. I've owned 2, and liked them. Not perfect boats, but there is no such thing. But they've been good boats, held their values well, were fun to sail, etc. So there is a track record. Your boat looks like a neat idea. But no track record (yet), no credibility (yet), etc. No boat at the Annapolis Sailboat Show. Don't get me wrong, I admire what you've done and what you're doing. You've picked a hard tough road to travel. J Boats has a ton of advantages over you. That doesn't mean their product is automatically better then yours...but they do get the benefit of the doubt over how good theirs will be based on past performance, and you don't, because so far you don't have much in the way of past performance. Again, not being critical of your effort, but you've only got a couple hulls and a couple years, and they have thousands of hulls and 30+ years. Lastly, I don't think J Boats or any other builder should keep building a boat that isn't selling well, just to avoid "eating their young." They are in business to sell boats. That is the only real criterion at the end of the day. If sales of the J-35 have slowed to a trickle, and you're not making money on them anymore, then it time to build something else. Owners who like their boats tend to get overly emotional about this...But its just a fact of life. J (or any other builder) would be out of business if it tried to not "eat its young" and never replace a boat once its sales start to dwindle....

#45 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:16 PM

Clean can you confirm that the J/ upwind sails are smaller than a u20 or sb3, can it be so ?

can you 'say' the real price of a m24, trailer with all the options necessary for racing

or will this be a 'secret' SW and Scuttlebutt style

quoting misleading sticker prices is BS, man up


Cost to go racing a M24 is somewhere around 60-65k USD. MUCH HIGHER in Europe. Not sure about Oz.

Stu J told us "45k including trailer" for the J/70. J/Boats is pretty accurate with their numbers; haven't seen the same amount of 'price creep' from them over the years as I have with others. However, we will of course publish the actual price as soon as we have it.

#46 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:21 PM


Why is this boat being mentioned and compared to the 20 footers? An additional 3' on a boat this small is a big difference. It also has higher sides and a cabin.

you got it !

they always are confused in here which is fairly frustrating, even more 'ludicrous' is comparing say a Dart or t8 sized boat with the V,SB3, m20, which happens here also

I guess in OZ we are quite aware of this because ours is a mixed fleet!
you may have the odd buyer that might consider either a no-cab 20-ish and a cabbed 23 but generally NOT , they know whether they want a sans-cab dinghy Upsize .. or a superlight yacht Downsize
(apparent yacht that is, will still perform like the lightweights)

we would loosely have 3 size groups the <20-21s> ; <the 23s>* ; & <26s> // split again into two types: Cab/No-cab

The 23s because the market offered e7s, T7s, bs23s etc, the m24 would fall in this group

The 26s because going back 7.80m was the old trailer yacht maximum LOA in NZ at least as far back as the 80s, again the market offered E780s, Y780s, Ross780s, this is now 8m or a tad over 26',

again cannot compare the two larger groups although the magic25 kinda fits 'tween ,
The j/70 would fall into the middle group


And at a foot shorter and a couple hundred pounds lighter (1850 vs 1625 but that number is just a swag), the J/70 has a similar D/L ratio of the M24. I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb. Hopefully the 18 years since the M24 was designed has taught them enough to be able to do so well, resulting in a more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat with the same performance. I hope they don't pick an underpowered sail plan.

#47 Ryley

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:31 PM

And at a foot shorter and a couple hundred pounds lighter (1850 vs 1625 but that number is just a swag), the J/70 has a similar D/L ratio of the M24. I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb. Hopefully the 18 years since the M24 was designed has taught them enough to be able to do so well, resulting in a more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat with the same performance. I hope they don't pick an underpowered sail plan.


Why would you assume that J has learned anything from Melges? What recent J/boat has shown that kind of forethought? maybe the J/111 - I don't know, I've never seen one up close and personal, But the J/95? 105? 109? 100? They've had ample opportunity to make these kinds of changes but in general J turns out conservative boats. It's what the people who can afford them want, or at least what J thinks they want. The last time J tried to do something truly sporty, the J/90, they sold what, 8? 12? Maybe it was less than that. I wish them luck, but I think they're going to need it if they can't easily define the market share they're after.

At least they're showing some hull plug pictures now, sort of.

#48 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:50 PM

Why would you assume that J has learned anything from Melges?


The boat's weight and length is almost identical to the 24.

Assuming a 'no-hiking' boat, they have to get righting moment from somewhere.

They also have to get cost savings from somewhere, and will use more refined manufacturing to make the boat cheaper (easier) to build and to get more weight into the bulb than on the M24. If they come in at the same weight as the 24 and can't keep the cost down, they won't sell.

#49 Ryley

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:05 PM



Why would you assume that J has learned anything from Melges?


The boat's weight and length is almost identical to the 24.

Assuming a 'no-hiking' boat, they have to get righting moment from somewhere.

They also have to get cost savings from somewhere, and will use more refined manufacturing to make the boat cheaper (easier) to build and to get more weight into the bulb than on the M24. If they come in at the same weight as the 24 and can't keep the cost down, they won't sell.


Except that even the official site has 0 dimensions listed, except for its length, no specs except for a southern spars rig, so your guess is as good as mine, I'd wager. :)

#50 Steam Flyer

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:36 PM



Why would you assume that J has learned anything from Melges?


The boat's weight and length is almost identical to the 24.

Assuming a 'no-hiking' boat, they have to get righting moment from somewhere.

They also have to get cost savings from somewhere, and will use more refined manufacturing to make the boat cheaper (easier) to build and to get more weight into the bulb than on the M24. If they come in at the same weight as the 24 and can't keep the cost down, they won't sell.


Consider the Flying Tiger 7.5 which is 1' longer and 500lbs heavier... 400lbs of that is in the ballast, and it has 100 sq ft more upwind SA. They are cheaper and I assume they're not selling all that many of 'em; will taking the other engineering tack and making it lighter with smaller sails be that huge a of a difference?

No!
IMHO the biggest difference will be the brand name
Engineering-wise, one way to make it lighter and cheaper would be to make it smaller, which can only be done to a limited extent or the customers will feel cheated. Refined manufacturing can also make it lighter and reduce the per-unit marginal cost but at the cost of higher investment (and I think we could safely assume higher labor costs too)... a slippery slope there.

It might be a GREAT boat, but then again it may not (figure the odds). Basing an opinion on hearsay and a picture of the hull mold doesn't add up.

FB- Doug

#51 GybeSet®

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:59 AM

And at a foot shorter and a couple hundred pounds lighter (1850 vs 1625 but that number is just a swag), the J/70 has a similar D/L ratio of the M24. I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb. Hopefully the 18 years since the M24 was designed has taught them enough to be able to do so well, resulting in a more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat with the same performance. I hope they don't pick an underpowered sail plan.

'I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb.'

that would mean a leapord changing its spots, J has no history of this, also it would mean a technical build and slash profit margins
-----------------------------------

'similar D/L ratio of the M24'

similar anything to the m24 could mean similar RM technicalities, and they certainly won't be hell-hiking with xtra crew

this leaves them with only two avenues, small sails or plenty weight

you can't have something (i.e. RM in this case) for nothing, laws of physics
---------------------------------

'more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat'

it's not adding up, its small sails ... or a technical expensive build to squeeze the poundage into the bulb, low tech profit based manuf. don't do the latter ( eg sb3)

so they have nowhere to go but small sails, smaller than any self-repecting sportsboat carries i might add

There was/are already some specs indicating small sail area.They are going to this corner of the design box IMO,
sacrificing light/mod weather performance to get the other charactistics they are punting for ( easy crewing, manageable sails etc )

so long as there are not Rockets, FT7.5s & Longztes around to highlight that why not?

The ruse may work given the brand loyalty (sheeples) and marketing


#52 crash

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 01:48 PM

And at a foot shorter and a couple hundred pounds lighter (1850 vs 1625 but that number is just a swag), the J/70 has a similar D/L ratio of the M24. I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb. Hopefully the 18 years since the M24 was designed has taught them enough to be able to do so well, resulting in a more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat with the same performance. I hope they don't pick an underpowered sail plan.

'I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb.'

that would mean a leapord changing its spots, J has no history of this, also it would mean a technical build and slash profit margins
-----------------------------------

'similar D/L ratio of the M24'

similar anything to the m24 could mean similar RM technicalities, and they certainly won't be hell-hiking with xtra crew

this leaves them with only two avenues, small sails or plenty weight

you can't have something (i.e. RM in this case) for nothing, laws of physics
---------------------------------

'more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat'

it's not adding up, its small sails ... or a technical expensive build to squeeze the poundage into the bulb, low tech profit based manuf. don't do the latter ( eg sb3)

so they have nowhere to go but small sails, smaller than any self-repecting sportsboat carries i might add

There was/are already some specs indicating small sail area.They are going to this corner of the design box IMO,
sacrificing light/mod weather performance to get the other charactistics they are punting for ( easy crewing, manageable sails etc )

so long as there are not Rockets, FT7.5s & Longztes around to highlight that why not?

The ruse may work given the brand loyalty (sheeples) and marketing


GybeSet,
Why is this a ruse, and why do you assume it's sheepless to want such a boat? From a sport boat perspective, I agree they are going towards the bottom left corner of the potential performance envelope...but so what? They are not trying to build the highest performing sport boat around. They are building the Mazda Miata of 2-seat sports cars, not a Lotus Elise or Exige, or a Porsche Cayman R.

And if what I want is a Miata, why is that bad?

No one is telling you that you should buy a J/70. No one is claiming it's performance will be brilliant. Its almost as if you are either afraid sales of the boats you like will be canabalized. I realize that is probably not the case, but I'm curious as to why the J/70 being on the tame side bothers you so.
Crash

#53 miahmouse

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:28 PM

you just compared the J70 to a Miata... from now on when I think of a J70 it'll always seem just a little gay...

:ph34r:

#54 Ryley

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:29 PM

crash, I think you're missing gybeset's point. Maybe I am too, but I think that the point is that Clean's wild speculation on what J is going to build is just that - wild speculation. This thing will sell a bazillion, I'm sure, and gybeset didn't say "sheepLESS," he said "sheeples" (sheep + people), the kind of J loyalists who are going to (or already do) just ooze about this boat, WANT this mythical boat despite the real dearth of hard information. (much in the same way Viperers have been known to ooze about theirs, or FT owners about theirs, or E770 owners about theirs... :rolleyes: ) but the point is that one of the biggest production performance boat builders in the world has an opportunity to offer something that is as exciting as a say, Shaw 650, or M 24, or Viper 830, and they are aiming low. Way low. At least, they seem to be - jury's out since there are no hard numbers. But even the speculation makes it an interesting conversation - I think Gybeset and I agree that making a truly sporty 7m is kind of far out of J's comfort zone, regardless of the general industry advances in technology.

#55 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:08 PM

crash, I think you're missing gybeset's point. Maybe I am too, but I think that the point is that Clean's wild speculation on what J is going to build is just that - wild speculation. This thing will sell a bazillion, I'm sure, and gybeset didn't say "sheepLESS," he said "sheeples" (sheep + people), the kind of J loyalists who are going to (or already do) just ooze about this boat, WANT this mythical boat despite the real dearth of hard information. (much in the same way Viperers have been known to ooze about theirs, or FT owners about theirs, or E770 owners about theirs... :rolleyes: ) but the point is that one of the biggest production performance boat builders in the world has an opportunity to offer something that is as exciting as a say, Shaw 650, or M 24, or Viper 830, and they are aiming low. Way low. At least, they seem to be - jury's out since there are no hard numbers. But even the speculation makes it an interesting conversation - I think Gybeset and I agree that making a truly sporty 7m is kind of far out of J's comfort zone, regardless of the general industry advances in technology.


There's nothing wild about my speculation. There's just a big difference between what I am allowed to write and what I know.

What I do know leads me to believe that this will be a reduced HP Melges 24 rather than anything in the 'roaring 20s' category. It'll look good, perform well, and provide a product for all those folks that are a little scared by the high HP sporties but are ready to get out of their J/24 or J/105 or Beneteau 36.7 or whatever. Personally, I enjoy the more edgy rides, but neither I nor Gybe-Set is where this thing is targeted.

To me, having a mainstream production builder of J/Boats' size and conservatism FINALLY produce something that can be legitimately called a 'sportboat' can be only positive. Few marketing foibles have bugged me like the constant shrieking about the "world's best selling sportboat" on the J/80 website, and I've told the Johnstones as much. Finally, they're fixing the problem, and the more people in planing designs, the better - even if they're not the fastest around.

Now, if J/Boats would only start selling cats, life would get really interesting!

#56 Jerryd

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:20 PM

crash, I think you're missing gybeset's point. Maybe I am too, but I think that the point is that Clean's wild speculation on what J is going to build is just that - wild speculation. This thing will sell a bazillion, I'm sure, and gybeset didn't say "sheepLESS," he said "sheeples" (sheep + people), the kind of J loyalists who are going to (or already do) just ooze about this boat, WANT this mythical boat despite the real dearth of hard information. (much in the same way Viperers have been known to ooze about theirs, or FT owners about theirs, or E770 owners about theirs... :rolleyes: ) but the point is that one of the biggest production performance boat builders in the world has an opportunity to offer something that is as exciting as a say, Shaw 650, or M 24, or Viper 830, and they are aiming low. Way low. At least, they seem to be - jury's out since there are no hard numbers. But even the speculation makes it an interesting conversation - I think Gybeset and I agree that making a truly sporty 7m is kind of far out of J's comfort zone, regardless of the general industry advances in technology.


I don't know anymore about this boat then anyone else here. But I don't think they are aiming low. I think they are aiming exactly where they want to be. They are capable of building/designing whatever they want. Personally I feel they are adressing what the market really wants and what will sell the most. I mean, they are a business, right?

I'm interested.

#57 crash

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:24 PM

you just compared the J70 to a Miata... from now on when I think of a J70 it'll always seem just a little gay...

:ph34r:


I know, but I don't need to drive a Corvette (or wear a bunch of gold chains around my neck) to be secure in my manlinessB)

#58 Ryley

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:34 PM

crash,
I don't see any difference between them aiming "low" (a relative term) and "where they want to be" (also a relative term). If where they want to be is the k-car of sportsboats (reliable, pedestrian, safe) then more power to them. To me, that's low. For me personally it makes no sense - I'm not going to go smaller when I'm already marginal for Off Soundings, Beringer, Greenport, and the like, but I'm glad somebody out there wants to buy it. I'm still waiting to go head to head with an FT 7.5, and I'll be very interested to see how we do once the J/70s start showing up.

#59 crash

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:53 PM

crash, I think you're missing gybeset's point. Maybe I am too, but I think that the point is that Clean's wild speculation on what J is going to build is just that - wild speculation. This thing will sell a bazillion, I'm sure, and gybeset didn't say "sheepLESS," he said "sheeples" (sheep + people), the kind of J loyalists who are going to (or already do) just ooze about this boat, WANT this mythical boat despite the real dearth of hard information. (much in the same way Viperers have been known to ooze about theirs, or FT owners about theirs, or E770 owners about theirs... :rolleyes: ) but the point is that one of the biggest production performance boat builders in the world has an opportunity to offer something that is as exciting as a say, Shaw 650, or M 24, or Viper 830, and they are aiming low. Way low. At least, they seem to be - jury's out since there are no hard numbers. But even the speculation makes it an interesting conversation - I think Gybeset and I agree that making a truly sporty 7m is kind of far out of J's comfort zone, regardless of the general industry advances in technology.


Hey, I learned a new word today! On the other hand I don't think I missed GybeSet's or your point. I just disagree with your premise that "exciting" equals a Shaw 650 or Viper 830, etc for most of the amateur sailing/racing world. Most of the people racing keelboats are racing 25 and 30 year old displacement boats...J-24's 29s etc, Merit 25s, S2 7.9s and 9.1s, etc, etc. Its those club racers and their clubs that J is aiming for (cause that's where the money is?). To go back to my car analogy, "slow" cars are the most fun to drive on a daily basis. If you drive an MGB, or a first generation Rx-7, or a Miata, you can drive the hell out of that car on most public roads (traffic and wx, etc permitting) and not put anyone at undue risk. You can heel and toe, and slide the back end out and shift at the redline, and steer with the throttle in any of those cars. If your in a modern corvette, or a Cayman, Elise, etc, you can't get anywhere near the cars limits on a public road without seriously endangering yourself and others. For that you need a racetrack. So where is the fun in that? I'd be willing to be spec Miata racing is a ball too. So I think the J/70 will be plenty exciting for alot of people. Will it excite a Viper guy or a foiling Moth guy? No way. Will it excite a guy whose last ride was a Pearson Flyer? Yeah probably....

So I agree they are aiming low. And I agree that a sporty 7m is far out of J's comfort zone...but I think they know that and are intentionally aiming there. I think Clean's points are relative to other J/Boat like products. I think (based on my conversations with Jeff and Rod at the Annapolis show) that they are trying to for example keep weight down/out of the deck, etc...and be able to put it in the bulb...etc. But not to go overboard, not to try to go out of their market, etc.... After all, they are in this to make money, not to make the highest performing 7m boat they can.

#60 crash

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:58 PM

crash,
I don't see any difference between them aiming "low" (a relative term) and "where they want to be" (also a relative term). If where they want to be is the k-car of sportsboats (reliable, pedestrian, safe) then more power to them. To me, that's low. For me personally it makes no sense - I'm not going to go smaller when I'm already marginal for Off Soundings, Beringer, Greenport, and the like, but I'm glad somebody out there wants to buy it. I'm still waiting to go head to head with an FT 7.5, and I'll be very interested to see how we do once the J/70s start showing up.


OBTW, I'm good with the idea that for you it personally makes no sense, and that for you it's too low. I too am concerned that it may be too small, but have the advantage of planning on keeping the 9.1 to do events like Down the Bay, etc...and using a boat like the J/70 for local around the cans racing, and for travelling to events like KWRW or CRW (hoping and assuming they have a OD class)

#61 doghouse

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:59 PM

For Pete's sake, leave the Miata talk out of it. Nothing good can ever be proved with a Miata. You have lowered the RX-7''s self esteem by just mentioning them in the same sentence.

#62 timber

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:32 PM

For Pete's sake, leave the Miata talk out of it. Nothing good can ever be proved with a Miata. You have lowered the RX-7''s self esteem by just mentioning them in the same sentence.



You have lowered the RX-7''s

I don't think you can lower an RX7 that much.

#63 crash

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:01 PM

For Pete's sake, leave the Miata talk out of it. Nothing good can ever be proved with a Miata. You have lowered the RX-7''s self esteem by just mentioning them in the same sentence.


I owned three of them (Rx-7s) 2 first gens and a 2nd gen. If the Miata doesn't come closest to providing the same balanced level of affordable performance and handling, name something that does it better? It's been on Car and Driver's 10 best list 12 times since 1990...

#64 doghouse

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:03 PM

It's been on Car and Driver's 10 best list 12 times since 1990...


I rest my case.

#65 GybeSet®

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:26 PM


And at a foot shorter and a couple hundred pounds lighter (1850 vs 1625 but that number is just a swag), the J/70 has a similar D/L ratio of the M24. I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb. Hopefully the 18 years since the M24 was designed has taught them enough to be able to do so well, resulting in a more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat with the same performance. I hope they don't pick an underpowered sail plan.

'I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb.'

that would mean a leapord changing its spots, J has no history of this, also it would mean a technical build and slash profit margins
-----------------------------------

'similar D/L ratio of the M24'

similar anything to the m24 could mean similar RM technicalities, and they certainly won't be hell-hiking with xtra crew

this leaves them with only two avenues, small sails or plenty weight

you can't have something (i.e. RM in this case) for nothing, laws of physics
---------------------------------

'more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat'

it's not adding up, its small sails ... or a technical expensive build to squeeze the poundage into the bulb, low tech profit based manuf. don't do the latter ( eg sb3)

so they have nowhere to go but small sails, smaller than any self-repecting sportsboat carries i might add

There was/are already some specs indicating small sail area.They are going to this corner of the design box IMO,
sacrificing light/mod weather performance to get the other charactistics they are punting for ( easy crewing, manageable sails etc )

so long as there are not Rockets, FT7.5s & Longztes around to highlight that why not?

The ruse may work given the brand loyalty (sheeples) and marketing


GybeSet,
Why is this a ruse, and why do you assume it's sheepless to want such a boat? From a sport boat perspective, I agree they are going towards the bottom left corner of the potential performance envelope...but so what? They are not trying to build the highest performing sport boat around. They are building the Mazda Miata of 2-seat sports cars, not a Lotus Elise or Exige, or a Porsche Cayman R.

And if what I want is a Miata, why is that bad?

No one is telling you that you should buy a J/70. No one is claiming it's performance will be brilliant. Its almost as if you are either afraid sales of the boats you like will be canabalized. I realize that is probably not the case, but I'm curious as to why the J/70 being on the tame side bothers you so.
Crash

I'm OK with the boat, even like the look

but after the steamboat 3 and it's profit-maxxing LOW tech (1974 laser dinghy) I object to heavy or low-powered boats 'dumbing down' the term Sportsboat

there are hundreds of trailable designs in AUS/NZ, mostly legacy that qualify to race in the 'trailable yacht' association events, they don't make the cut to be measured or sail SB

If its got l'il sails or flops onto its side in 20knts due to no RM ( @KWR e.g.) , and you lot don't call it a Sportsboat then we'll agree famously


Car Co's test heavily and this & the m20 should have done a month in SF Bay before they commit to final specs
I'm over the J/ co telling the world what a sportsboat is, you lot swallah it hook line and sinker

#66 hotair

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:48 PM

My limited time on my new Viper tells me it has quite a bit of horsepower in the sailplan.
But I can easily power down with smaller sails.
For instance, a slightly modified J22 main will fit nicely.
Much more difficult to add sail area.
If the J70 is short on mast height the only option is a Hobie Cat style or square top main to power it up.

Brian Bennett may be on to something with the VX.
An owner could buy three different factory designed mains to cover almost all wind conditions,
even though that is not his intent.

#67 crash

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:43 PM



And at a foot shorter and a couple hundred pounds lighter (1850 vs 1625 but that number is just a swag), the J/70 has a similar D/L ratio of the M24. I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb. Hopefully the 18 years since the M24 was designed has taught them enough to be able to do so well, resulting in a more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat with the same performance. I hope they don't pick an underpowered sail plan.

'I assume J will be pretty aggressive with getting the weight out of the deck, hull, and rig and into the bulb.'

that would mean a leapord changing its spots, J has no history of this, also it would mean a technical build and slash profit margins
-----------------------------------

'similar D/L ratio of the M24'

similar anything to the m24 could mean similar RM technicalities, and they certainly won't be hell-hiking with xtra crew

this leaves them with only two avenues, small sails or plenty weight

you can't have something (i.e. RM in this case) for nothing, laws of physics
---------------------------------

'more stable, less crew-weight dependent boat'

it's not adding up, its small sails ... or a technical expensive build to squeeze the poundage into the bulb, low tech profit based manuf. don't do the latter ( eg sb3)

so they have nowhere to go but small sails, smaller than any self-repecting sportsboat carries i might add

There was/are already some specs indicating small sail area.They are going to this corner of the design box IMO,
sacrificing light/mod weather performance to get the other charactistics they are punting for ( easy crewing, manageable sails etc )

so long as there are not Rockets, FT7.5s & Longztes around to highlight that why not?

The ruse may work given the brand loyalty (sheeples) and marketing


GybeSet,
Why is this a ruse, and why do you assume it's sheepless to want such a boat? From a sport boat perspective, I agree they are going towards the bottom left corner of the potential performance envelope...but so what? They are not trying to build the highest performing sport boat around. They are building the Mazda Miata of 2-seat sports cars, not a Lotus Elise or Exige, or a Porsche Cayman R.

And if what I want is a Miata, why is that bad?

No one is telling you that you should buy a J/70. No one is claiming it's performance will be brilliant. Its almost as if you are either afraid sales of the boats you like will be canabalized. I realize that is probably not the case, but I'm curious as to why the J/70 being on the tame side bothers you so.
Crash

I'm OK with the boat, even like the look

but after the steamboat 3 and it's profit-maxxing LOW tech (1974 laser dinghy) I object to heavy or low-powered boats 'dumbing down' the term Sportsboat

there are hundreds of trailable designs in AUS/NZ, mostly legacy that qualify to race in the 'trailable yacht' association events, they don't make the cut to be measured or sail SB

If its got l'il sails or flops onto its side in 20knts due to no RM ( @KWR e.g.) , and you lot don't call it a Sportsboat then we'll agree famously


Car Co's test heavily and this & the m20 should have done a month in SF Bay before they commit to final specs
I'm over the J/ co telling the world what a sportsboat is, you lot swallah it hook line and sinker


GybeSet, I with you. I'm not trying to call it a sportboat. This thread is misnamed. So I guess we agree famously. In fact if you go look at the J Boats site on the J/70, you'll notice that J Boats never calls it a sport boat. they call it "...a new dimension of fun, fast sailing in a stable, easy to own boat. A natural evolution of its J pedigree, the J/70's 22-foot long waterline with high aspect, all carbon rig and deep, lifting bulb keel provides spirited performance and stability that feels like a much larger boat."


They may have said it (sportboat) about the J/80, but seem to be scrupulously (sp?) avoiding it now on the J/70...

#68 GybeSet®

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:21 AM

rather they say 'speedster' , and why not





particularly if standing next to a j/22 ! a quantum leap




#69 Jambalaya

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:19 AM

They may have said it (sportboat) about the J/80, but seem to be scrupulously (sp?) avoiding it now on the J/70...


Perhaps they think the title sportsboat will reduce it's appeal ?

#70 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:05 PM

you lot swallah it hook line and sinker


Who's "you lot"?

#71 crash

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:45 PM


They may have said it (sportboat) about the J/80, but seem to be scrupulously (sp?) avoiding it now on the J/70...


Perhaps they think the title sportsboat will reduce it's appeal ?


I suspect you are likely right...

#72 Jerryd

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 04:04 PM

Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:

#73 Damaged Goods

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 04:07 PM

Posted Image

10,000+ and counting....

#74 crash

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 04:34 PM

Posted Image

10,000+ and counting....



Whats your point? Boat fits its intended market perfectly.
Catalina is not trying to say its the highest performance 22 footer on the planet....or the highest quality 22 footer on the planet.

#75 jrpytlak

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:11 PM


I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


J80 Never does well here....

#76 GybeSet®

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:58 PM


you lot swallah it hook line and sinker


Who's "you lot"?

it varies
comes in three approx sizes: 6mt - 7mt - 8mt

and two sub species" cabbed and no-cab

easier to pick by the red or green K'aid dribbling down the chin though :lol:

#77 ultraracer613um

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 08:13 PM

J70's going to be a cool boat. But.. China! Fark!

Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:



#78 Jambalaya

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:22 PM



I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


J80 Never does well here....


Worlds back to Europe for next two seasons so back up to 100 boat events. Sorry it didn't catch on so much there.


J70's going to be a cool boat. But.. China! Fark!


Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:


This must be the 3rd or 4th multiple page thread on the boat and from a forum with it's fair amount of J-boat haters. That's telling you something.

J-Boats from China, like the iPad. Converse trainers from Vietnam. etc etc etc. Each to their own but I wouldn't buy a car built in the US, a boat maybe (Melges), maybe not (J's rumoured to be better from Europe than US)

#79 Viper55

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:07 AM

J70's going to be a cool boat. But.. China! Fark!


Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:


I like the look of a J70 and might buy one, but I wish they were made in the USA. I'm glad Brian Bennett is making the VX here. I know all kinds of crap comes from China but I dont' support that move by J boats. I do think Jboats made a good choice by going to a retractable keel. The J80 is a very good boat but we all don't have easy access to hoist and cranes.

#80 Jerryd

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:22 AM


J70's going to be a cool boat. But.. China! Fark!


Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:


I like the look of a J70 and might buy one, but I wish they were made in the USA. I'm glad Brian Bennett is making the VX here. I know all kinds of crap comes from China but I dont' support that move by J boats. I do think Jboats made a good choice by going to a retractable keel. The J80 is a very good boat but we all don't have easy access to hoist and cranes.


I agree Dave about China. But, I'm thinking about one if I can sell the Martin.

#81 Steam Flyer

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:28 AM



I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


J80 Never does well here....


Offshore?!?

They don't fare all that well in the upper Chesapeake; would it even be possible to outfit one to go offshore?
:o

FB- Doug

#82 Viper55

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:31 AM



J70's going to be a cool boat. But.. China! Fark!


Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:


I like the look of a J70 and might buy one, but I wish they were made in the USA. I'm glad Brian Bennett is making the VX here. I know all kinds of crap comes from China but I dont' support that move by J boats. I do think Jboats made a good choice by going to a retractable keel. The J80 is a very good boat but we all don't have easy access to hoist and cranes.


I agree Dave about China. But, I'm thinking about one if I can sell the Martin.


that would be awesome Jerry...it would be a good boat for the Neuse.

#83 crash

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 02:52 AM


J70's going to be a cool boat. But.. China! Fark!


Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:


I like the look of a J70 and might buy one, but I wish they were made in the USA. I'm glad Brian Bennett is making the VX here. I know all kinds of crap comes from China but I dont' support that move by J boats. I do think Jboats made a good choice by going to a retractable keel. The J80 is a very good boat but we all don't have easy access to hoist and cranes.


Lots of things today get built in lots of places. It is of course okay to want the boat built in the US...but just because a boat is built in China, or Taiwan, or France, or Mexico doesn't mean its automatically going to be crapp ...or great. There are lots of other variables.

#84 Jerryd

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 10:37 AM

that would be awesome Jerry...it would be a good boat for the Neuse.


I think it would be a good start to a new OD fleet here. We better get going though. They already have 17 on order in Annapolis!

#85 Viper55

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:31 AM



J70's going to be a cool boat. But.. China! Fark!


Its too bad J Boats just can't get it right. I mean only 1300 or so J-80's sold and 1500 J-22's. Maybe someday they will figure out what the market really wants :rolleyes:


I like the look of a J70 and might buy one, but I wish they were made in the USA. I'm glad Brian Bennett is making the VX here. I know all kinds of crap comes from China but I dont' support that move by J boats. I do think Jboats made a good choice by going to a retractable keel. The J80 is a very good boat but we all don't have easy access to hoist and cranes.


Lots of things today get built in lots of places. It is of course okay to want the boat built in the US...but just because a boat is built in China, or Taiwan, or France, or Mexico doesn't mean its automatically going to be crapp ...or great. There are lots of other variables.


I didn't mean to say it would be crap or great coming from somewhere else, just don't want to support China. That's all.

#86 Viper55

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:44 AM


that would be awesome Jerry...it would be a good boat for the Neuse.


I think it would be a good start to a new OD fleet here. We better get going though. They already have 17 on order in Annapolis!


Is Henry interested in one? That would certainly help get things going.

#87 Jerryd

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 01:59 PM



that would be awesome Jerry...it would be a good boat for the Neuse.


I think it would be a good start to a new OD fleet here. We better get going though. They already have 17 on order in Annapolis!


Is Henry interested in one? That would certainly help get things going.


I've talked to him about it. I think he wanted to wait. I'll see if I can push him.

#88 trenace

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 03:38 PM


I like the look of a J70 and might buy one, but I wish they were made in the USA. I'm glad Brian Bennett is making the VX here. I know all kinds of crap comes from China but I dont' support that move by J boats.


Lots of things today get built in lots of places. It is of course okay to want the boat built in the US...but just because a boat is built in China, or Taiwan, or France, or Mexico doesn't mean its automatically going to be crapp ...or great. There are lots of other variables.

It actually is fairly simple, but in a way not simple, to have things done very well in China.

You have to know the right people. And not just know them but have a very solid connection with them.

In my line of work, there is no option anymore but having manufacturing done in China. One of our principals is from China, having moved here a number of years ago, but still knows the right people and has had strong and very good business relations with them for very many years.

She specifies what she requires, she gets it.

When dealing with companies where that kind of connection doesn't exist, there is indeed a huge tendency for shortcuts (or worse) to be taken that adversely affect your product.

I don't rule out that J Boats, through the right intermediaries or through bringing the right people into the company, may have gotten the right connections with the right people and may produce a boat that is absolutely fine "despite" being made in China.

#89 dogwatch

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:07 AM

Melges 24 style hiking is something that few folks want to have to do outside the fleet.


That's amusing. A year or two ago I said exactly the same and you ranted at me for "disrespecting" M24 sailors.

#90 Mambo Kings

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 05:46 PM


Melges 24 style hiking is something that few folks want to have to do outside the fleet.


That's amusing. A year or two ago I said exactly the same and you ranted at me for "disrespecting" M24 sailors.



and that leaves you with three choices:-

1. Melges 24 Style hiking
2. Limited Hiking or No Hiking classes like the SB3 and Melges 20....or
3. Comfortable Hiking aka Viper 640.

The J70 is another addition to the second category. Quite a crowded category, with some well heeled marketing dollars to spend. I realize, they all have some distinguishing features. In an era of less sailors spread over more classes, do we have too many choices to make? Just posing the question and not criticizing the J70 concept.

#91 ultraracer613um

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 07:15 PM

Formula for success of the 70; a) quality build B) reasonable performance c) Organized class association that holds regular elections, AGM meetings and dosent have a small ground of members in one region that control things d) class and / builder who is responsive if owners have problems with their boats (ie - melges)

If that happens, expect to see a lot of traction in Texas, even among folks who might be looking at vipers.

RIP melges 20 and J80 for sure. I think this is going to be a great boat. (but did i mention i hate that their building them in frackin china!) ... fyi, one of my best friends is a Jboat dealer.. love giving him crap about it.



Melges 24 style hiking is something that few folks want to have to do outside the fleet.


That's amusing. A year or two ago I said exactly the same and you ranted at me for "disrespecting" M24 sailors.



and that leaves you with three choices:-

1. Melges 24 Style hiking
2. Limited Hiking or No Hiking classes like the SB3 and Melges 20....or
3. Comfortable Hiking aka Viper 640.

The J70 is another addition to the second category. Quite a crowded category, with some well heeled marketing dollars to spend. I realize, they all have some distinguishing features. In an era of less sailors spread over more classes, do we have too many choices to make? Just posing the question and not criticizing the J70 concept.



#92 jolly

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 05:27 AM



I like the look of a J70 and might buy one, but I wish they were made in the USA. I'm glad Brian Bennett is making the VX here. I know all kinds of crap comes from China but I dont' support that move by J boats.


Lots of things today get built in lots of places. It is of course okay to want the boat built in the US...but just because a boat is built in China, or Taiwan, or France, or Mexico doesn't mean its automatically going to be crapp ...or great. There are lots of other variables.

It actually is fairly simple, but in a way not simple, to have things done very well in China.

You have to know the right people. And not just know them but have a very solid connection with them.

In my line of work, there is no option anymore but having manufacturing done in China. One of our principals is from China, having moved here a number of years ago, but still knows the right people and has had strong and very good business relations with them for very many years.

She specifies what she requires, she gets it.

When dealing with companies where that kind of connection doesn't exist, there is indeed a huge tendency for shortcuts (or worse) to be taken that adversely affect your product.

I don't rule out that J Boats, through the right intermediaries or through bringing the right people into the company, may have gotten the right connections with the right people and may produce a boat that is absolutely fine "despite" being made in China.


Agreed on all you say about China....a very misunderstood place.

Jim Johnstone has spent alot of time in Xiamen in the last 2 years setting up the factory there. Around 28 Xiamen-built J80's are now sailing in Hong Kong, and none have fallen apart or sunk yet to my knowledge.

as a brand they also have dealers in lots of places, and they answer your queries and solve your problems.

flip side? not the most cutting edge kit out there granted, but when you're spending some reasonable coin, it's good to know there is some support.

#93 not growing up

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:39 PM

Enough about China already! Does ANYONE have any new info about the J-70? Details please.

#94 jkdubs808

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:08 PM

Pics? Anyone? Of the build? I know we must have some insiders in China.

#95 Animal Kingdom

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 04:16 PM




I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


J80 Never does well here....


Offshore?!?

They don't fare all that well in the upper Chesapeake; would it even be possible to outfit one to go offshore?
:o

FB- Doug


A J80 went transtlantic.

http://adventure.roxen.com/

#96 BarePoles

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:19 PM





I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


J80 Never does well here....


Offshore?!?

They don't fare all that well in the upper Chesapeake; would it even be possible to outfit one to go offshore?
:o

FB- Doug


A J80 went transtlantic.

http://adventure.roxen.com/


Ahh. Thank you, I spent about an hour on the web last week trying to locate that page...I knew I had seen that somewhere.

#97 windseekeryachts

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:22 PM



I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


J80 Never does well here....


Gp26's are offshore capable and fast.

#98 Damaged Goods

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 07:21 PM




I know it's not going to happen, but something slightly offshore capable would be cool. Right now, the only fastish offshore 24ish footer that I know of its the Ultimate24....

J80


J80 Never does well here....


Gp26's are offshore capable and fast.


GP26's are a tender bitch with no pretense of venturing much past the breakwater and looking sexy on the trailer.




#99 GybeSet®

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 07:39 PM

that statement might cut it in leadbelly anarchy

compared to most lead-bellys it might be tender, now as for 25-26 footers:
tender compared to an obese Corby (at DOUBLE the weight of a good 1/4 tonner, and more than a M-32 / Mumm30)

at least as stiff as a j/80 ( engineer or N/A Perry could calculate that), LOADS stiffer than a j/70

and plenty stiffer than a 25-26' sportsboat, this being a sportsboat forum

which GP have you sailed or sailed against to say that ?

#100 Steam Flyer

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 02:43 PM


{ J80 doing well }

Offshore?!?

They don't fare all that well in the upper Chesapeake; would it even be possible to outfit one to go offshore?
:o

FB- Doug


A J80 went transtlantic.

http://adventure.roxen.com/


Following (or probably leading most of the boats) in the ARC rally? Good idea, lotta care & planning evident there... did they put positive flotation in the boat or do J80s already have it? That would be the best feature IMHO for a small (or even a not-so-small) boat offshore.

My hats off to these guys.
B)

FB- Doug




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