628 replies to this topic

[GybeSet®]

hardly a sportsboat and definately not a sportsboat race

hang on it's not even a race

meh

[not growing up]

Still no pics or specs? Sup?

[André]

Still no pics or specs? Sup?

Got confirmation of 1600 lbs today.

[GybeSet®]

jesus

fingers crossed they can get >650 of that in low hanging lead ~~ i'm assuming its still proposed to be a 3-up boat


you can't go light on both live and dead ballast

at the same time keeping a decent sized sailplan ...

[Ryley]

I know my Elliott is heavy at 25' and 2800 lbs, but really - 3' shorter and 1200 lbs lighter? and yet is supposed to rate 120 like a J/80 (according to the J forum). Something's... not adding up. it's either a gift rating or this thing's woefully underpowered. a Tiger 7.5 rates in the high 90s... It's time for this thing to stop being vaporware.

[Mambo Kings]

Or, looked at another way. Only 1 foot longer but twice the weight.

[Ryley]

MK, like I said, I know my boat is overbuilt for its size. However, even at its design weight of 2400 lbs, the J/70 is supposedly that much lighter. To Gybeset's point, you can't do that with the stated ballast without giving up something somewhere.

[trenace]

I know my Elliott is heavy at 25' and 2800 lbs, but really - 3' shorter and 1200 lbs lighter? and yet is supposed to rate 120 like a J/80 (according to the J forum). Something's... not adding up. it's either a gift rating or this thing's woefully underpowered. a Tiger 7.5 rates in the high 90s... It's time for this thing to stop being vaporware.

It's hard to go much if any faster for same LWL while keeping comparable "friendliness" for the target market, except where comparison is to a boat that's more difficult than it should be for its speed, which is hardly the case here.

They may indeed have kept sail area modest.

Why would they necessarily feel a need for it to be much if any faster than the J/80? That's a bigger and more expensive (presumably) boat.

I don't know whether it is or is not much if any faster. Maybe the marketing angle is similar speed and handling to J/80 in a smaller, easier-to-launch package and lower price.

J Boats is not calling this one a sport boat. Other people are.

("Speedster" is meaningless.)

[crash]

I know my Elliott is heavy at 25' and 2800 lbs, but really - 3' shorter and 1200 lbs lighter? and yet is supposed to rate 120 like a J/80 (according to the J forum). Something's... not adding up. it's either a gift rating or this thing's woefully underpowered. a Tiger 7.5 rates in the high 90s... It's time for this thing to stop being vaporware.

It's hard to go much if any faster for same LWL while keeping comparable "friendliness" for the target market, except where comparison is to a boat that's more difficult than it should be for its speed, which is hardly the case here.

They may indeed have kept sail area modest.

Why would they necessarily feel a need for it to be much if any faster than the J/80? That's a bigger and more expensive (presumably) boat.

I don't know whether it is or is not much if any faster. Maybe the marketing angle is similar speed and handling to J/80 in a smaller, easier-to-launch package and lower price.

J Boats is not calling this one a sport boat. Other people are.

("Speedster" is meaningless.)

Exactly!

[ultraracer613um]

Jboats refers to the J80 as a sportboat (worlds largest or something sportboat fleet on that Janarchy banner). I'd assume they'd call the J70 a sportboat which, in my opinion it is.

Be curious to see how it goes relative to the 20. Reckon it'll be a lot quick uphill and a bit slower down?

I know my Elliott is heavy at 25' and 2800 lbs, but really - 3' shorter and 1200 lbs lighter? and yet is supposed to rate 120 like a J/80 (according to the J forum). Something's... not adding up. it's either a gift rating or this thing's woefully underpowered. a Tiger 7.5 rates in the high 90s... It's time for this thing to stop being vaporware.

It's hard to go much if any faster for same LWL while keeping comparable "friendliness" for the target market, except where comparison is to a boat that's more difficult than it should be for its speed, which is hardly the case here.

They may indeed have kept sail area modest.

Why would they necessarily feel a need for it to be much if any faster than the J/80? That's a bigger and more expensive (presumably) boat.

I don't know whether it is or is not much if any faster. Maybe the marketing angle is similar speed and handling to J/80 in a smaller, easier-to-launch package and lower price.

J Boats is not calling this one a sport boat. Other people are.

("Speedster" is meaningless.)

[trenace]

Jboats refers to the J80 as a sportboat (worlds largest or something sportboat fleet on that Janarchy banner). I'd assume they'd call the J70 a sportboat which, in my opinion it is.

Assumptions can be dangerous... thus far J Boats has not called it a sport boat.

Hypothetically they might someday, but so far they've chosen not to.

As they haven't provided sail area or even a drawing showing the rig -- this seems very unusual to me, even boats that are total vaporware usually show the sailplan as part of the initial information released -- you and I have no way to know whether it has high, moderately high, or just plain moderate SA/D. Beyond the name "Speedster" anyway, which to me could allow any of those.

Well actually, reportedly one of the Johnstones said that it will rate similarly to the J/80, in which case sail area is probably just plain moderate.

However different people use words differently and if in your opinion the J/70 is a sportboat then okay.

[Alternative]

Sounds good from J-News. Is this the new (more expensive) SB3.... ? Cute little cozy holiday socks, who writes this.

Pics anyone?

STOP PRESS!  J/70 Speedster Excitement Growing!
(Newport, RI)- In the next few weeks, several announcements will be forthcoming that will simply knock those cute little cozy holiday socks off your collective feet!  The J/70 train is starting to build up steam, in fact with so much pressure building up, it's a possibility the J/70 may eclipse any known sales records for the introduction of a new "J" class in history.  

Watch this space next week.  The first announcement coming within a fortnight will have an enormous impact on American J/70 fleet development and with a commensurate impact on European J/70 class development, too.   For more J/70 sailboat information

[GybeSet®]

so its not just a possibility it will eclipse sales records

not that it may eclipse sales records

but both, a possibility that it may

viral marketing bullshit

meanwhile a long viral lead-up till the actual boat appears appears

oh the pressure of j/loyal buyers lining up to buy something that is a total unknown in sailing specification

[trenace]

Okay let's try to escape unfounded speculation and focus on what J-boats actually -- besides stuff about holiday socks -- is claiming for the J/70.

The items I see that have any relevance to performance and overall positioning are:

... designed to fulfill the growing need for an easy-to-own, high performance one-design that is exciting to sail, stable enough sailboat for the family, and built to last.

The J/70 introduces a new dimension of fun, fast sailing in a stable, easy to own boat.. provides spirited performance and stability that feels like a much larger boat.... the J/70 has that legendary "J" feel - light, controllable with a wide-groove to sail consistently fast.... the J/70 pops up on a plane and takes off in a moderate breeze.

(I have to interject here that I have no confidence that the ad-copy meanings of "plane" and/or "moderate" are anything but loose.)

SAILOR FRIENDLY

J/70 is all about making sailing inclusive, not exclusive... Sailing is about friends, it's the joy of sharing the experience with others. When your family and friends can enjoy sailing in all weather, the return on investment will be high.

That's it folks. That's how they've chosen to describe where it sits in terms of performance and general nature.

So other than the word "Speedster" why is anyone assuming it to be particularly fast? Sounds to me like a boat aimed to not scare the wife, relatives, or friends and probably not slower than the J/80, but not necessarily substantially faster, either.

[6924]

The J/70 will be successful in that a fair number of boats will be shoved onto dealers. There will be much noise given over to the 2-3 'fleets' and a transparent attempt to create a sense of cool.
But face it - the J/70 will soon be rocognized as a slightly slower more expensive version of the U20.
But the J/70 isn't going to have a single fleet from NYC to Maine - Mambo Kings and his posse have locked up that region.
very clearly having ,major teething problems with the initial build - about 6 months late. Contrast this with Brian Bennent's execution of his VX which has been completed in less time with barely any resources.
The J/70 will be a failure just like the J/111. The J/111 had 60 boats shoved down the dealer 's ....... They dealers dutifully pushed the J/111 onto the customers - and that is that. The J/111 is a complete bust, how many boats have been sold after the initial hype ? It has been more tha. 12 months and zilch.
The J dealer network is a fanatical cadre who love to bad mouth any and all other boats - and have common talking points when addressing signiificant quality and design issues that the industry recognizes about the products. TPI/Pearson had millions upon millions of warranty claims for its shoddy workmanship.
The problem with J boats is that they are unable to see beyond their successful model of 25 years ago. Mambo Kings and his little gang of guerillas simply walked over their core market. J boats thinks buying some slick full page ads and drivi g their dealers is the answer .
Top down Marketing is. O V E R

[trenace]

I see no way to attribute to the Viper more than small fraction of whatever core market sales troubles J Boats has?

The number of Viper sales, while to be applauded, just isn't enough compared to J Boat's core market for that to be a main cause.

[DAK]

The J/70 will be successful in that a fair number of boats will be shoved onto dealers. There will be much noise given over to the 2-3 'fleets' and a transparent attempt to create a sense of cool.
But face it - the J/70 will soon be rocognized as a slightly slower more expensive version of the U20.
But the J/70 isn't going to have a single fleet from NYC to Maine - Mambo Kings and his posse have locked up that region.
very clearly having ,major teething problems with the initial build - about 6 months late. Contrast this with Brian Bennent's execution of his VX which has been completed in less time with barely any resources.
The J/70 will be a failure just like the J/111. The J/111 had 60 boats shoved down the dealer 's ....... They dealers dutifully pushed the J/111 onto the customers - and that is that. The J/111 is a complete bust, how many boats have been sold after the initial hype ? It has been more tha. 12 months and zilch.
The J dealer network is a fanatical cadre who love to bad mouth any and all other boats - and have common talking points when addressing signiificant quality and design issues that the industry recognizes about the products. TPI/Pearson had millions upon millions of warranty claims for its shoddy workmanship.
The problem with J boats is that they are unable to see beyond their successful model of 25 years ago. Mambo Kings and his little gang of guerillas simply walked over their core market. J boats thinks buying some slick full page ads and drivi g their dealers is the answer .
Top down Marketing is. O V E R

Maybe I'm mistaken but to call the J/111 a failure seems a little ridiculous. Name another $350000 boat that has sold 60 units in the last 10 years. Other manufacturers would kill for those kind of numbers.

[craigiri]

The J/70 will be successful in that a fair number of boats will be shoved onto dealers.
J boats thinks buying some slick full page ads and driving their dealers is the answer .
Top down Marketing is. O V E R

So Facebook and Twitter will sell the boats of the future?
C'mon - the J-111 is a rich mans toy. How many folks spend that kind of cash?

This is a trailer sailor.

There is a bit of difference here - comparisons are not in order!
It's a heck of a lot harder for said dealer to unload the J111 than to sell the young family dude on the J70.

I suppose, all in all, the economy will have a lot to do with the success of many new boat designs. Folks who are underwater in their mortgages and who can't get a easy boat loan are not going to buy even a 30 or 40K new boat.

Personally, I'd love to see a new golden age of sailboats...selling...especially those under 50 or 60K.

[Jambalaya]

The J/70 will be successful in that a fair number of boats will be shoved onto dealers. There will be much noise given over to the 2-3 'fleets' and a transparent attempt to create a sense of cool.
But face it - the J/70 will soon be rocognized as a slightly slower more expensive version of the U20.
But the J/70 isn't going to have a single fleet from NYC to Maine - Mambo Kings and his posse have locked up that region.
very clearly having ,major teething problems with the initial build - about 6 months late. Contrast this with Brian Bennent's execution of his VX which has been completed in less time with barely any resources.
The J/70 will be a failure just like the J/111. The J/111 had 60 boats shoved down the dealer 's ....... They dealers dutifully pushed the J/111 onto the customers - and that is that. The J/111 is a complete bust, how many boats have been sold after the initial hype ? It has been more tha. 12 months and zilch.
The J dealer network is a fanatical cadre who love to bad mouth any and all other boats - and have common talking points when addressing signiificant quality and design issues that the industry recognizes about the products. TPI/Pearson had millions upon millions of warranty claims for its shoddy workmanship.
The problem with J boats is that they are unable to see beyond their successful model of 25 years ago. Mambo Kings and his little gang of guerillas simply walked over their core market. J boats thinks buying some slick full page ads and drivi g their dealers is the answer .
Top down Marketing is. O V E R

Troll alert - really mate you've no idea what you are talking about

J-boats have provided minimal information about the J/70 and yet there en,dess threads here on the boat, one can take that as a loose indicator of the interest there is in the boat/concept. I was given a heads up at the start of 2010 - a few of the key features like size, lift keel, in board no hiking, carbon rig - the dealer knew that was enough to have me interested and as the launch isn't till 2012 that's enought.

You are totally wrong about the J111 - that boat has also sold itself - it's the sort of modern fast mid size keel boat with usable accommodation that people want. I personally know 3 of the owners in Europe and they were all excited about the boat. If I had the money I'd be an owner too. I've never seen or asked for a brochure on the boat, the sum total of my conversation with the dealer has been a comment at the 2011 show that for me it needed more interior finish (done now for European build boats) and a brief conversation as the dealers boat (now sold) pulled away from dock for a demo sail, hardly aggressive marketing.

J Boats is the most successful keel boat race brand in the world - period. There are manufacturers that make better models or are strong in niches but there isn't anyone even close on a global basis overall. The danger in this economy is a lot of other brands are over, which would be a pity as diversity is our friend

[BIAM]

The J/70 will be successful in that a fair number of boats will be shoved onto dealers. There will be much noise given over to the 2-3 'fleets' and a transparent attempt to create a sense of cool.
But face it - the J/70 will soon be rocognized as a slightly slower more expensive version of the U20.
But the J/70 isn't going to have a single fleet from NYC to Maine - Mambo Kings and his posse have locked up that region.
very clearly having ,major teething problems with the initial build - about 6 months late. Contrast this with Brian Bennent's execution of his VX which has been completed in less time with barely any resources.
The J/70 will be a failure just like the J/111. The J/111 had 60 boats shoved down the dealer 's ....... They dealers dutifully pushed the J/111 onto the customers - and that is that. The J/111 is a complete bust, how many boats have been sold after the initial hype ? It has been more tha. 12 months and zilch.
The J dealer network is a fanatical cadre who love to bad mouth any and all other boats - and have common talking points when addressing signiificant quality and design issues that the industry recognizes about the products. TPI/Pearson had millions upon millions of warranty claims for its shoddy workmanship.
The problem with J boats is that they are unable to see beyond their successful model of 25 years ago. Mambo Kings and his little gang of guerillas simply walked over their core market. J boats thinks buying some slick full page ads and drivi g their dealers is the answer .
Top down Marketing is. O V E R

J111 a bust?....I only wish I could fail like that...

Dealers pushing $300K boats on unsuspecting buyers?? yeah, happens all the time...

you sir, are a MORON.

[GybeSet®]

so BIAM is from j/boats

the evidence is building

[BIAM]

so BIAM is from j/boats

the evidence is building

jesus, you are a fool....

[GybeSet®]

he also loves sailing j/boats when he used to sail

how ironic they're from china like the boats he hates

[BIAM]

your obsession with me is a bit unusual...but, amusing..

[Mambo Kings]

I see no way to attribute to the Viper more than small fraction of whatever core market sales troubles J Boats has?

The number of Viper sales, while to be applauded, just isn't enough compared to J Boat's core market for that to be a main cause.

I agree that with trenace that the Viper is not the boat to take over the J Boat core market. My take is that the Viper is a modern, lighter, easier answer to the 3 person legs in keel boat/centerboarder. Think Slonar, R19, Etchell, Shields, Lightening, Thistle, etc. However, yes 6924, in the North East, Texas, some spots on the West Coast the Viper racing circuit has got strong traction such that at the margin J22 and ex J24 sailors have joined the class.

FWIW I am a previous J22 (loved the boat) and J24 (hate/love/hate relationship) owner. But I had stopped sailing the J boat for several years. I'm a typical Viper owner. Someone who used to sail a lot,had taken a break, and then came back into the sport because the Viper seemed fun.

Interestingly, in the North East, the J80 is having something of a rennaisance. It was looking a little moribund a few years back and we thought that some of the J80 sailors might migrate towards the Viper. Quite the opposite, the buzz of the Viper helped create a general excitement for sportboats and the like. The J80 suited folks very well who wanted something a bit more yacht-like and the J80 class sparkplugs did a great job and have established a couple of nice fleets in Marion etc. They have a nice well thought out East coast circuit and the J80 worlds in Newport was huge for them. Good for them.

[DaveK]

Interestingly, in the North East, the J80 is having something of a rennaisance. It was looking a little moribund a few years back and we thought that some of the J80 sailors might migrate towards the Viper. Quite the opposite, the buzz of the Viper helped create a general excitement for sportboats and the like. The J80 suited folks very well who wanted something a bit more yacht-like and the J80 class sparkplugs did a great job and have established a couple of nice fleets in Marion etc. They have a nice well thought out East coast circuit and the J80 worlds in Newport was huge for them. Good for them.

The local J80 fleet to Austin has had a huge resurgence of growth. At least 10 boats now and larger than the Viper fleet. However, the Viper is probably growing faster state wide.

[Tejano]

I see no way to attribute to the Viper more than small fraction of whatever core market sales troubles J Boats has?

The number of Viper sales, while to be applauded, just isn't enough compared to J Boat's core market for that to be a main cause.

I agree that with trenace that the Viper is not the boat to take over the J Boat core market. My take is that the Viper is a modern, lighter, easier answer to the 3 person legs in keel boat/centerboarder. Think Slonar, R19, Etchell, Shields, Lightening, Thistle, etc. However, yes 6924, in the North East, Texas, some spots on the West Coast the Viper racing circuit has got strong traction such that at the margin J22 and ex J24 sailors have joined the class.

FWIW I am a previous J22 (loved the boat) and J24 (hate/love/hate relationship) owner. But I had stopped sailing the J boat for several years. I'm a typical Viper owner. Someone who used to sail a lot,had taken a break, and then came back into the sport because the Viper seemed fun.

Interestingly, in the North East, the J80 is having something of a rennaisance. It was looking a little moribund a few years back and we thought that some of the J80 sailors might migrate towards the Viper. Quite the opposite, the buzz of the Viper helped create a general excitement for sportboats and the like. The J80 suited folks very well who wanted something a bit more yacht-like and the J80 class sparkplugs did a great job and have established a couple of nice fleets in Marion etc. They have a nice well thought out East coast circuit and the J80 worlds in Newport was huge for them. Good for them.

Spot on. Describes most Viper owner to a T.

[GybeSet®]

I agree that with trenace that the Viper is not the boat to take over the J Boat core market.

incredible , who would suggest such a thing ?

would the pickup-truck market be taken over by Lotus ?

[aslongastheyreallthesame]

STOP PRESS!  J/70 Speedster Excitement Growing!
(Newport, RI)- In the next few weeks, several announcements will be forthcoming that will simply knock those cute little cozy holiday socks off your collective feet!  The J/70 train is starting to build up steam, in fact with so much pressure building up, it's a possibility the J/70 may eclipse any known sales records for the introduction of a new "J" class in history.  

Watch this space next week.  The first announcement coming within a fortnight will have an enormous impact on American J/70 fleet development and with a commensurate impact on European J/70 class development, too.   For more J/70 sailboat information

Strong words from the J-team.

I would think an announcement like this must be backed up by something strong.
Big pricing move or fleet program?
Fleet management program?
Leasing? Company-owned fleet program?
New/multiple locations of manufacture? (Europe mentioned.)
Designation as match-race or other multi-country series boat?

Thoughts?

[GybeSet®]

that WAS a strong announcement given that NOTHING is happening

there is no boat yet, only a hull and deck - no spec

btw the Kool-Aid is o'er here by the gallon forums.sailinganarchy J/Anarchy

[PurpleOnion]

OK, so I just received this tid-bit from J-boats:

"Made In America"
The J/70 speedster tooling has arrived in America. The J/70 will be made in America for the North American marketplace. 2012 production begins early 2012 with two sets of molds to meet the unprecedented demand for the new "baby J". The J/70 "twins" will be hatched in early Spring on Narragansett Bay off Newport. Contact your J/Dealer for all the details.

Interesting, considering all the China commentary we've seen on these boards.

[GybeSet®]

unprecedented demand for the new "baby J"?







time for a show of hands
whose deposited for a boat with unknown ballast & rig size ?

[StayinStrewn]

I was thinking the same thing....not sure where they made the tooling, but it looks like they'll at least build some boats here amongst other locations??

OK, so I just received this tid-bit from J-boats:

"Made In America"
The J/70 speedster tooling has arrived in America. The J/70 will be made in America for the North American marketplace. 2012 production begins early 2012 with two sets of molds to meet the unprecedented demand for the new "baby J". The J/70 "twins" will be hatched in early Spring on Narragansett Bay off Newport. Contact your J/Dealer for all the details.

Interesting, considering all the China commentary we've seen on these boards.

oh, and in France...missed that part!!

[Obsessed]

What makes anyone think that it is anything other than salesman talk. See the same thing when trying to sell houses, unprecedented demand but in reality nothing sold. They are just trying to build hype, but as you all say without even seeing anything of substance it's pretty transparent bull shit

[crash]

Not sure you got that right. Story I heard was issue with the J/111 was lack of production capacity to meet demand...resulting in long waits for a hull, and probably some lost sales...I suspect this is an attempt to mitigate that. Adding a US production facility would seem to fit into that line of reasoning...I'd bet that after all these years the Johnstones have gotten pretty good at measuring likely response and interest and turning that into how many hulls likely to need to build. Yep, sometimes they get it wrong...think only 1 J/108 has been built. No US interest in J/97 and only 1 hull sold here. But they've done ok with the 109, 95 and so I'm not thinking its merely salesmanship. I watched how many folks came up to talk to them at Annapolis and talk multi-hull purchases for clubs. I know they got people to put down money at Annapolis Raceweek this year to "reserve a hull number".

There is always an aspect of salesmanship...there has to be, if you are going to be successful selling boats. But I'd bet its more then pure hype. YMMV.

[6924]

1) rumour in the backrooms is Hudson and J had a serious falling out which left J scrambling for a contract manufacturer. The original schedule would have debuted the J/70 at Annapolis this past October. This SNAFU will set back production at least 6 months. Expect first boats for civilian customers to be commissioned no earlier than June

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

3) Because if the production SNAFU, one can reasonable predict no real OD fleets established before 2013 season. By that time the VX, Viper, and U20 will be dominant in all the key markets.

4) One has to give the J bots credit. They are fanatically loyal to the brand (perhaps because J dealers & salesmen make fat margins) and come up with brilliant responses to any and all criticism.

[hotair]

One would think that after all these years, J-boats would have their own factory.
Perhaps there isn't enough money in actually building boats, just marketing.
BTW, Rhode Island is consistently the most business unfriendly state in the USA.

[BIAM]

1) rumour in the backrooms is Hudson and J had a serious falling out which left J scrambling for a contract manufacturer. The original schedule would have debuted the J/70 at Annapolis this past October. This SNAFU will set back production at least 6 months. Expect first boats for civilian customers to be commissioned no earlier than June

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

3) Because if the production SNAFU, one can reasonable predict no real OD fleets established before 2013 season. By that time the VX, Viper, and U20 will be dominant in all the key markets.

4) One has to give the J bots credit. They are fanatically loyal to the brand (perhaps because J dealers & salesmen make fat margins) and come up with brilliant responses to any and all criticism.

If true, that could explain the slow trickle of news of late....

[Jerryd]

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

$10K didn't seem like a small deposit to me?

[6924]

One would think that after all these years, J-boats would have their own factory.
Perhaps there isn't enough money in actually building boats, just marketing.
BTW, Rhode Island is consistently the most business unfriendly state in the USA.

There is a 160,000 sqft boat building facility going to be up for grabs on Jan 1st - in Bristol RI. Wonder if J will finally step up to the plate to finally become a boat builder ?

BTW - 21 J/111s sold in the USA in 2 years -

http://lejouet.eu/ListingHull.htm

[André]

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

$10K didn't seem like a small deposit to me?

Try 1k...

[ultraracer613um]

Good for Jboat's - bringing production of US J70's boat's to the states.

Looks like a cool boat. The sportboat age has arrived.

It may take a year but there will be a fleet of these things in most regions - with owners jazzed to travel and get out on the water more. Think about jumping from a J80 to a J70. More exciting, affordable (relative) and most importantly - easy. Owners will travel more, sail more and because these will be a lot more "crew friendly", turn more people onto the sport of sailing (hopefully)

Looking forward to seeing them on the course.

[Jambalaya]

1) rumour in the backrooms is Hudson and J had a serious falling out which left J scrambling for a contract manufacturer. The original schedule would have debuted the J/70 at Annapolis this past October. This SNAFU will set back production at least 6 months. Expect first boats for civilian customers to be commissioned no earlier than June

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

3) Because if the production SNAFU, one can reasonable predict no real OD fleets established before 2013 season. By that time the VX, Viper, and U20 will be dominant in all the key markets.

4) One has to give the J bots credit. They are fanatically loyal to the brand (perhaps because J dealers & salesmen make fat margins) and come up with brilliant responses to any and all criticism.

Interesting rumour, could be production schedule is beng delayed due to impending potential world wide double dip recession ?

J Boats has built a very loyal customer base, that's why the brand has value

On J being a builder, there are so many reasons not to do that, a builder requires big capital investment, ongoing high fixed costs - big risk. Being the designer and licence holder makes much more sense - its like a retail franchise.

Viper is a different boat, lighter with hiking. U20 possibly most similar but doesnt have J branding or worldwide appeal

[6924]

Interesting rumour, could be production schedule is beng delayed due to impending potential world wide double dip recession ?

J Boats has built a very loyal customer base, that's why the brand has value

On J being a builder, there are so many reasons not to do that, a builder requires big capital investment, ongoing high fixed costs - big risk. Being the designer and licence holder makes much more sense - its like a retail franchise.

Viper is a different boat, lighter with hiking. U20 possibly most similar but doesnt have J branding or worldwide appeal


Agreed - J has done a fantastic job of using its 1980s marketing model consistently to build loyalty among its customers. However, bottom up marketing has changed the dynamic forever. Look what a 5 dudes & 1 babe with keyboards and handheld video camera have done to revitalize a once morbid boat - the Viper.


Builder vs. Marketeer I - Agreed, makes more sense for a thinly capitalized start-up to utilize contract manufacturing. However, controlling quality in low volume capital goods (ie Boats) really requires the enterprise to eventually have in-house manufacturing capability. At some point the risk-reward equation favors in-house manufacturing. Also, note in contract manufacturing - some of the business risks are dumped onto the boat owners - who get to deal with a 3 ring circus ( Dealer vs Marketeer vs Contract Manufacturer) to resolve their design/warranty/commissioning issues. Exhibit 1 - the TPI/Pearson quality fiascos. Exhibit 2 - the dramatic change from using Hudson to an as-yet unnamed Contract Manufacturer.


Builder vs. Marketeer II - One should also note that the Marketeer-Contract Manufacturer-Dealer model is staggeringly expensive. It requires additional Mark Ups at every stage of the process. It requires redundant layers of coordinators to manage the supply chain. Finally, this model does not really encourage a deep Kaizen culture - which improves the product and reduces costs for the Boat Owner.


Different Boat ? - Industry insiders tend to get hung up on engineering performance minutia. The broad sailing public only wants to have fun with a big group. The network effects are significant. It will be interesting how the U20 fleets (in Middle Europe and USA) will respond to the delays in J/70 production. There are 220+ U20s sailing in Europe and North America. The U20 is a ISAF class, with a solid organization.

[craigiri]

One would think that after all these years, J-boats would have their own factory.
Perhaps there isn't enough money in actually building boats, just marketing.
BTW, Rhode Island is consistently the most business unfriendly state in the USA.

RI is probably the most business friendly state to buy and sell boats - no tax!

You are correct, though, that there is probably much less money in the actual building (or bigger losses) than there is in the rest of the story. Think about many boat companies have come and go since J has been in business......seems like a lot.

[hotair]

So, contract builders would likely build J boats at cost , just to help cover overhead
and hope to make actual profits on other products.
If J squeezed them on pricing, the builder would squeeze back on quality
You would get what they paid for, but less than what you paid for.

I had a J/29 (TPI) when they first came out and feel no loyalty to buy another J product.
My Viper is just right, not too big, not too small and a thrill a minute when the breeze is up.

[Viper55]

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

$10K didn't seem like a small deposit to me?

Pocket change for someone in Oriental! Looking forward to seeing one on the Neuse.

Dave

[Steam Flyer]

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

$10K didn't seem like a small deposit to me?

Pocket change for someone in Oriental! Looking forward to seeing one on the Neuse.

Dave

I wonder if they would take 7 San Juans instead of cash


FB- Doug

[Jerryd]

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

$10K didn't seem like a small deposit to me?

Pocket change for someone in Oriental! Looking forward to seeing one on the Neuse.

Dave

You first

[Mambo Kings]

3) Because if the production SNAFU, one can reasonable predict no real OD fleets established before 2013 season. By that time the VX, Viper, and U20 will be dominant in all the key markets.

While the Vipers appreciate the compliment, Im afraid its an unlikely scenario.

Nobody will be dominant by 2013. Some classes will have traction. Some will not. Some will grow and some will fade.

[TBone]

Some classes will have traction. Some will not. Some will grow and some will fade.

Same as it ever was...

[dogwatch]

There are 220+ U20s sailing in Europe and North America.

Really? http://www.u20class....OOwnersMap.html

[Monster Mash]

I counted 36 in Europe
so that leaves 184 for North America. Reasonable no?

[dogwatch]

^

Where did you find those figures? I'm curious as apart from a German-language website which seems more or less moribund, I don't see signs of much U20 activity in Europe. Am I wrong?

[quasi-expert]

^

Where did you find those figures? I'm curious as apart from a German-language website which seems more or less moribund, I don't see signs of much U20 activity in Europe. Am I wrong?

The german website counts 69 U20s in europe. There is also some new content online so there is a high chance of these numbers being accurate.

[junta]

^

Where did you find those figures? I'm curious as apart from a German-language website which seems more or less moribund, I don't see signs of much U20 activity in Europe. Am I wrong?

Staller Marine is the European builder of the U20. Since the boat is ISAF certified they can sail One Design in Europe. I know there is one U20 in Plymouth in the UK. He is turboing it with a squaretop main. Hope this gets some of the j24 owners into something more modern.

[dogwatch]

^

OK, interesting. I hope we are due for a new sportsboat class to take off in the UK as and when the economy revives. It will be something OD, simple and relatively cheap, because that's what gets traction here.

[Viper55]

2) The 'boats sold' represent small refundable customer deposits reserving production slots. Clever (and legitimate) technique to build momentum around a very high risk project.

$10K didn't seem like a small deposit to me?

Pocket change for someone in Oriental! Looking forward to seeing one on the Neuse.

Dave

You first

I think King Henry should get one first, if that happened I might consider trading the Viper in to start our OD fleet.

[Monster Mash]

^

Where did you find those figures? I'm curious as apart from a German-language website which seems more or less moribund, I don't see signs of much U20 activity in Europe. Am I wrong?

I followed your link to the map and counted the hull numbers shown when clicking on each location.

[SA Lurker]

New news?

McM: "We are pleased to confirm that J/70 development, launching and production will take place in Rhode Island under the watchful eyes of the J/Boat team. The first hulls will mold this month and sea trials are scheduled for Newport in early Spring. Plans are underway for a Fleet Package price of $44,900 that includes the boat with sails and a trailer."

[6924]

1) No mention of the contract manufacturer - why ?

2) Fleet Purchase price of XXX - brilliant marketing technique, generates enough buzz to delay retail purchase of competitor's boats.

[hyerstay]

1) No mention of the contract manufacturer - why ?

2) Fleet Purchase price of XXX - brilliant marketing technique, generates enough buzz to delay retail purchase of competitor's boats.

AFAIK, the builder will be CCF Composites, who build the J/111 and J/95 for North America.

Cheers,

jason

[Mambo Kings]

New news?

McM: "We are pleased to confirm that J/70 development, launching and production will take place in Rhode Island under the watchful eyes of the J/Boat team. The first hulls will mold this month and sea trials are scheduled for Newport in early Spring. Plans are underway for a Fleet Package price of $44,900 that includes the boat with sails and a trailer."

Undeniably a competitive price for a boat that size including sails and tariler.

[jrpytlak]

New news?

McM: "We are pleased to confirm that J/70 development, launching and production will take place in Rhode Island under the watchful eyes of the J/Boat team. The first hulls will mold this month and sea trials are scheduled for Newport in early Spring. Plans are underway for a Fleet Package price of $44,900 that includes the boat with sails and a trailer."

Undeniably a competitive price for a boat that size including sails and tariler.

Obviously everyone buys boats for different reasons, but for only 10k more than a Vipe or a 570, I think you'll get a lotta boat in the 70.... You'll also get promotion that only Melges can some close to. The 70 is the kind of boat I'd love to have on the mooring at my parents camp on Lake Champlain. I could picture that same thing happening all over the place. Quickish boat that is really easy to handle. Also a good day boat that can race with minimal crew. J might have hit a good one here. We'll see, by KW 13.

[Timbo]

Quickish boat that is really easy to handle.

Really??? Based on what exactly??

[trenace]

I would say:

1) "Ish" is a qualifier broad enough to make only spectacular failure not qualify

2) On being really easy to handle, this could be reasonable guesswork based on J Boats track record.

So it is in the realm of being presented as reasonable personal expectation. It would seem unlikely that it was intended as proven fact given that no boats have sailed.

[jrpytlak]

Quickish boat that is really easy to handle.

Really??? Based on what exactly??

Being that it's spose to PHRF around the same as an 80, that is quickISH. And seeing that you're a viper guy, you think that any boat in the world is shit besides Vipes. I'm pretty sure almost everyone around here is sick of that retarded shit.

[Timbo]

Not at all, I have a few boats other than the Viper, everything from a Etchells to a Tornado... I just get tired of all the vaporware from SEVERAL builders. All sailing is good, I guess my heritage is from Missouri... Show Me..

[dogwatch]

I followed your link to the map and counted the hull numbers shown when clicking on each location.

Hah! I never thought of scrolling right. Well done for your lateral thinking.

[Presuming Ed]

1) No mention of the contract manufacturer - why ?

Why would they? Do Apple make a thing out of the builders of the iPad/Phone/Pod?

[TOTALXS]

1) No mention of the contract manufacturer - why ?

Why would they? Do Apple make a thing out of the builders of the iPad/Phone/Pod?

This from the newsletter - seems like the builder to me:

As a result, J/Sailors can arrange factory tours with J/Dealers at our building facility at CCF Composites in Bristol, Rhode Island and also go for demo sails off Newport in beautiful Narragansett Bay.

[jrpytlak]

Not at all, I have a few boats other than the Viper, everything from a Etchells to a Tornado... I just get tired of all the vaporware from SEVERAL builders. All sailing is good, I guess my heritage is from Missouri... Show Me..

Roger that. Sorry for the snap.

John

[GybeSet®]

2) On being really easy to handle, this could be reasonable guesswork based on J Boats track record.

So it is in the realm of being presented as reasonable personal expectation. It would seem unlikely that it was intended as proven fact given that no boats have sailed.

2) is flawed and total conjecture

they have no 'good' track record with boats this light whatsoever, if they don't do a techy build and squeeze a good percentage of the proposed weight into the bulb it may be tender and a bitch to handle,
remember they are not utilizing crew weight to any degree like a Melges24

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

[trenace]

True, that would be conjecture. I saw it only as reasonable personal conjecture on jrpytlak's part, with that being a possible line of thinking.

Track record was poorly stated: better would have been "apparent company priorities as seen by most boats they've produced, and their talk of it being comfortable sailing for any of your family and for each of your friends because that's what sailing enjoyment is all about." (Paraphrase of J-Boat-speak.)

Myself, I don't assume anything on it. I'm sure I've posted not one positive word on the J/70: all I've posted is doubt at claims of it being particularly fast.

The lack of positive word is not because I assume it will be awful, but because there's not a single fact saying anything really, besides the claim of expected rating, which is nothing stellar.

[ultraracer613um]

I predict it will be quicker around the track than the M20, which has a similar purpose. Boat's going to be heavier but most notably the backstay is going to make dealing with puffy conditions much more manageable.

It's going to be a popular boat.

45K with sails and trailer, very well priced.

[O25 dude]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

[junta]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The U20 never sank. It just swamped. The boat is back sailing. Not a good comparison.

[jh26]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The U20 never sank. It just swamped. The boat is back sailing. Not a good comparison.

Likewise, plenty of Vipers have turtled. None have sunk.

[6924]

It appears that the J-70 will be similar to the U20 but cost $15k-$20k more

[Steel Panther]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FL7yD-0pqZg

Someone should make a similar video -> Customer: " i want to buy a J70" Salesman "we dont have any J70's yet, but we do have some U20's".

It appears that the J-70 will be similar to the U20 but cost $15k-$20k more

[Ryley]

I was hoping Rod might bring a J70 to Spring Offsoundings, like he did with the J95 a few years ago. Then I remembered the J70 can't qualify for Offsoundings (too short). Oh well, maybe we'll see one at new englands or something. $45K with sails and trailer is pretty sweet.

[teener]

It appears that the J-70 will be similar to the U20 but cost $15k-$20k more

Similar, just 50% more, if we follow the cube rule.

[crash]

2) On being really easy to handle, this could be reasonable guesswork based on J Boats track record.

So it is in the realm of being presented as reasonable personal expectation. It would seem unlikely that it was intended as proven fact given that no boats have sailed.

2) is flawed and total conjecture

they have no 'good' track record with boats this light whatsoever, if they don't do a techy build and squeeze a good percentage of the proposed weight into the bulb it may be tender and a bitch to handle,
remember they are not utilizing crew weight to any degree like a Melges24

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

I think if you look back at previous boats, there is indeed a track record. For example, J-35 displaced 10,400lbs with 4400lbs of ballast leaving a hull weight of 6100lbs. J-111 displaces 9300lbs with a 3500lbs ballast for a hull weight of 5800lbs.

Now J-22 displaces 1790 with 700lbs of ballast and a hull weight of 1090. Even with fairly low tech build, J70 hull weight of 1090 seems doable...leaving 500lbs for ballast, now in a bulbed keel instead of a "peterson" style fin. Seems entirely reasonable to me....230sqft of SA would give you an SA/Disp of 27...thats only 7 sqft more than a J-22, but same SA/Disp as the J-111. Again, seems pretty reasonable to me...

Obviously, there is no boat yet, so even my "analysis" is nothing more than pure WAG....

[Mambo Kings]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The U20 never sank. It just swamped. The boat is back sailing. Not a good comparison.

Likewise, plenty of Vipers have turtled. None have sunk.

For the sake of factual accuracy. Very few Vipers have turtled. One has sunk (It hit a reef, going fast).

Its all good.

Everyone knows that I am a Viper addict (damn I love my boat!). But I sail and support plenty of other classes. I am first to say that $45k for a 7 meter sports boat built by CCF Composites in Bristol (first class builder) incl trailer and sails is a hell of a good price. If they can hold that price, that is very affordable for folks looking in that niche.

[6924]

1325996495[/url]' post='3537310']

1325982841[/url]' post='3537068']
the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The issue with the J/24 isn't the loss rate ( Although a 4/1000 catastrophic failure rate is shockingly high ) .
The issue people have is that J/Boats didn't correct the problem immediately with a simple real fix. Instead, the J marketing machine went into high gear essentially blaming the victims. This has been consistent practice for many years within the J/Boat community. J had same attitude with the J/30 balsa core failures, the J/80 keel failures, and now an apparent rash of sprit failures. Denial is a said to be a river in Eqypt....

[Ryley]

1325996495[/url]' post='3537310']

1325982841[/url]' post='3537068']
the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The issue with the J/24 isn't the loss rate ( Although a 4/1000 catastrophic failure rate is shockingly high ) .
The issue people have is that J/Boats didn't correct the problem immediately with a simple real fix. Instead, the J marketing machine went into high gear essentially blaming the victims. This has been consistent practice for many years within the J/Boat community. J had same attitude with the J/30 balsa core failures, the J/80 keel failures, and now an apparent rash of sprit failures. Denial is a said to be a river in Eqypt....

On the other hand, J/boats fixed every J/109 keel proactively. you paint with a pretty wide brush.

[6924]

What did they do on the 109 ?

http://www.j109.org/...html?1290869886

[U20guy2]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

So far there is only 1 U20 that has actually sunk. It was caught on a mooring on a lee shore during a wicked storm and holed. So keep working on your research there bud.

[U20guy2]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The U20 never sank. It just swamped. The boat is back sailing. Not a good comparison.

Not to mention that case involved a storm that eventually killed a sailor and wiped out a 38ft sailboat. LOL

[Ryley]

What did they do on the 109 ?

http://www.j109.org/discus/messages/5/327.html?1290869886

J/boats got reports of the keel/hull joint flexing and cracking, so they engineered new stringers and reinforcements in the keel sump. The original work I was aware of was all done in the 2007/2008 time frame, before PC went tits up. The 109 owners I spoke to back then were all reimbursed very quickly and the work was top-notch. the bigger point is that this is an issue on which J stepped up to work with PC and the owners to make sure a serious issue was handled transparently.

[6924]

anyone can read the link to the J/109 users group and decide for themselves. that J/109 numerous owners would disagree.

[Ryley]

you're right, 6924. As I said, I only talked with owners in 2007/2008 when the problem and the solution was first engineered. I talked with 5 owners who were satisfied with the work that was done, and 0 owners who weren't. But that isn't indicative of the 334 owners in existence at the time worldwide. I did see that in that thread, the major issues with reimbursement didn't occur until 2008.

Don't put a lot of stock in what I said, but don't read too much into complaints on the internet either - you're generally only going to hear from the complainers.

[O25 dude]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The U20 never sank. It just swamped. The boat is back sailing. Not a good comparison.

Not to mention that case involved a storm that eventually killed a sailor and wiped out a 38ft sailboat. LOL

I'm no U20 expert, and I've never sunk one of my keelboats so I'm not a sinkologist, but the post by Greg Henning on SA (below) seemed pretty clear. Maybe we have different definitions of "sunk."

"Fire/Rescue was working to find a way to get close enough to us when the boat finally quit and went almost vertical, bow down. We left at that time and swam approx 10 yards, and were helped into the rescue boat at approx 1130. We did not tether to the boat at any time as we were worried that it was unstable and might cause us to get pinned or tangle.

Marinette Sheriff arrived shortly after that. Fire/Rescue wanted to get us to shore, so Sheriff stood by the boat until USCG Station Sturgeon Bay arrived and tethered a bouy to the stern rail. At some point during the night the boat sank the rest of the way. Someone on the M&M YC RC gave us their hotel room for the night as they had overnight finish line duty, and then provided us with anything else needed.

The boat was recovered mid-day. It had sunk to approximately 60 ft, which turned out to be fantastic because the bottom is at 100 and it simply hung in suspension."

That sounds "sunk" to me, but again, I have no direct experience.

WRT the V640, the one I saw had turtled and would not have come back up without outside assistance. So, all you can say with certainty is that they sink more slowly than J24s.

As I said, I think both are great boats and I'm considering each as I look for my next boat (sold my ride last summer). Maybe I shouldn't have used them as examples - could just have easily used any number of popular keel boats. The point was only that 1) any mass produced boat will eventually experience losses, and statistically J24 losses are similar to many other designs, and 2) the armchair NAs slamming J Boats, and the J70, generally don't have a leg to stand on. Why are so many folks hyperventilating about a boat that doesn't exist? Get a grip. The funny thing is that this thread is helping to keep the J70 front and center on one of the planet's most visited sailing forums....J must love it.

[O25 dude]

Oops, read the rest of the story and see the owners report was inaccurate. Mea culpa. But, she was swamped and not coming back so, like the V640, we can say she sinks more slowly than a J24. Fundamental points remain the same....

[U20guy2]

the other track record they have is with the flipping and sinking 24 footer

until the rig & ballast specs are published, jury is OUT

That track record is pretty good with over 5300 of those boats sold. And the BS about the huge numbers that have turned turtle and/or sunk is just that. Do the math. Suppose 15 have sunk (guessing)...that's a loss rate of .004%. I know of one U20 that has sunk (may be more), yielding an identical loss rate. I personally saw a Viper turtle and have to be righted by another boat, giving the same rate (if that were the only one to flip, which it wasn't). Where's all the hate for them? (Before the U20 and V640 guys get their panties in a bunch, I think they're both awesome boats.)

I do agree with your last statement....no shit the jury is OUT -- the boat hasn't even touched water.

The U20 never sank. It just swamped. The boat is back sailing. Not a good comparison.

Not to mention that case involved a storm that eventually killed a sailor and wiped out a 38ft sailboat. LOL

I'm no U20 expert, and I've never sunk one of my keelboats so I'm not a sinkologist, but the post by Greg Henning on SA (below) seemed pretty clear. Maybe we have different definitions of "sunk."

"Fire/Rescue was working to find a way to get close enough to us when the boat finally quit and went almost vertical, bow down. We left at that time and swam approx 10 yards, and were helped into the rescue boat at approx 1130. We did not tether to the boat at any time as we were worried that it was unstable and might cause us to get pinned or tangle.

Marinette Sheriff arrived shortly after that. Fire/Rescue wanted to get us to shore, so Sheriff stood by the boat until USCG Station Sturgeon Bay arrived and tethered a bouy to the stern rail. At some point during the night the boat sank the rest of the way. Someone on the M&M YC RC gave us their hotel room for the night as they had overnight finish line duty, and then provided us with anything else needed.

The boat was recovered mid-day. It had sunk to approximately 60 ft, which turned out to be fantastic because the bottom is at 100 and it simply hung in suspension."

That sounds "sunk" to me, but again, I have no direct experience.

WRT the V640, the one I saw had turtled and would not have come back up without outside assistance. So, all you can say with certainty is that they sink more slowly than J24s.

As I said, I think both are great boats and I'm considering each as I look for my next boat (sold my ride last summer). Maybe I shouldn't have used them as examples - could just have easily used any number of popular keel boats. The point was only that 1) any mass produced boat will eventually experience losses, and statistically J24 losses are similar to many other designs, and 2) the armchair NAs slamming J Boats, and the J70, generally don't have a leg to stand on. Why are so many folks hyperventilating about a boat that doesn't exist? Get a grip. The funny thing is that this thread is helping to keep the J70 front and center on one of the planet's most visited sailing forums....J must love it.

I happen to know Greg very well shared a U20 class role with him and the conditions 50+ knots of wind generated by a severe thunder storm- Gregg and his crew experienced, rolled the boat three times and due the boat design never sank. The same storm wiped out a 38ft boat and killed a sailor. Having sailed on a J/24 for years in SF and nearly sank it more than once in FAR FAR less severe conditions would say no your example of a sunk U20 is poor and in accurate at best.

Of all the small 20ft sport boats currently built the U20 still is the most seaworthy of any of them. The viper is an awesome boat but its a dinghy with a light keel not the same as the U20 - M20 by any stretch regarding actual keel weight and righting moment nor was it ever intended to be such. The Viper is excellent for exactly what it was intended for. Inland/protected waters day racing high performance sailing machine.

The new J whatever it might be is what it is - a Vapor Boat till they start selling them. To say its the greatest thing ever before it even exists just shows how J-brain washed you are and how little sailing you do.

[Mambo Kings]

Oops, read the rest of the story and see the owners report was inaccurate. Mea culpa. But, she was swamped and not coming back so, like the V640, we can say she sinks more slowly than a J24. Fundamental points remain the same....

You have to rip a 6 foot long by 3 foot wide gash in the hull of a Viper to even begin to sink a Viper and even then, you are right a Viper's foam core hull takes an interminably long time to sink. You certainly cannot sink a vIper by a capsize.

Our resident expert is Rockhead who put a J24 to the bottom of Lake Winnipesaukee in 30 seconds or less, and despite his damnest efforts hasnt managed to sink a Viper yet.

I owned and raced J24, "True Brit" and had many great big breeze days with death rolls and the like, but we knew to close the weatherboards and hatch except when dowsing the spinnaker. Provided you do that the J24 is extremely unlikely to sink. If you do death roll with the hatch open, there is serious glug glug risk. I agree with O25...the J24's submarine adventures are overstated and it was invariably operator error.

I will say that my Viper is easier to sail and control in big weather than my J24. I expect the J70 will also, because light displacement boats with carbon rigs have a much higher wind range where they can still be racing than a heavy displacement tin rig small boat. I suspect the J70 will be a nice boat

[Mambo Kings]

I happen to know Greg very well shared a U20 class role with him and the conditions 50+ knots of wind generated by a severe thunder storm- Gregg and his crew experienced, rolled the boat three times and due the boat design never sank. The same storm wiped out a 38ft boat and killed a sailor. Having sailed on a J/24 for years in SF and nearly sank it more than once in FAR FAR less severe conditions would say no your example of a sunk U20 is poor and in accurate at best.

Of all the small 20ft sport boats currently built the U20 still is the most seaworthy of any of them. The viper is an awesome boat but its a dinghy with a light keel not the same as the U20 - M20 by any stretch regarding actual keel weight and righting moment nor was it ever intended to be such. The Viper is excellent for exactly what it was intended for. Inland/protected waters day racing high performance sailing machine.

I think I can say on beahlf of most people on the sport boat forum that Greg is a friend even of those who haven't met him. What I took away from the thread on the U20 in the storm is:-

A) Gregg and his crew displayed real mature seamanship.
B The U20 is a sturdy little ship
C Gregg and his crew shared the lessons they learnt from that incident in a very blunt and honest fashion, So that the rest of us could take something away from it. There was no spin or class varnish . It was some sailors who went through a very tough spot, sharing what happened. Kudos! and Im glad to hear the Goombay Smash is back on her feet.


I do disagree that the Viper is a dinghy with a keel.......but why dont we leave that for another day.

[jrpytlak]

Of all the small 20ft sport boats currently built the U20 still is the most seaworthy of any of them.

Although I do respect your opinion, I have seen personally where the Open5.70 was/is the most seaworthy of the 20 footers. I'm trying to take the high road on this one, but lets just say that there were U20's and Vipers out in the same regatta...... I can tell you that over 25kn, I'd go 5.70, then U20, and I donno if I'd leave the dock on a Vipe. I like wild rides, but I prefer to keep the bulb in the water most of the time.

[jrpytlak]

I do disagree that the Viper is a dinghy with a keel.......but why dont we leave that for another day.

It really is a modern Thistle with a bulb. Name another keelboat that will easily turtle.

[ultraracer613um]

Have you ever been on a viper jrpytlak? Stop being a dip-shit. The damn things are near impossible to turtle trust me, i've tried numerous times.

Damn things are too stable for my inner dingy sailor - this Nov i tossed a CB in one and raced in a mixed fleet. It blew 25, no problem. The thistle in our fleet broached, swamped and barely made it back to the dock.

troll

I do disagree that the Viper is a dinghy with a keel.......but why dont we leave that for another day.

It really is a modern Thistle with a bulb. Name another keelboat that will easily turtle.