628 replies to this topic

[Steam Flyer]

.... ...
... I'm trying to take the high road on this one, but lets just say that there were U20's and Vipers out in the same regatta...... I can tell you that over 25kn, I'd go 5.70, then U20, and I donno if I'd leave the dock on a Vipe. I like wild rides, but I prefer to keep the bulb in the water most of the time.

??

"taking the high road" seems to consist of spouting the same spiteful nonsense as Lude Sped and that guy that's trying to claim he's sold, like, -way- more Open 5.70s than there are Vipers.

I do disagree that the Viper is a dinghy with a keel.......but why dont we leave that for another day.

It really is a modern Thistle with a bulb. Name another keelboat that will easily turtle.

Yeah the 2-inch wide gun'l is a dead give away.





FB- Doug

[lowcamaro]

.... ...
... I'm trying to take the high road on this one, but lets just say that there were U20's and Vipers out in the same regatta...... I can tell you that over 25kn, I'd go 5.70, then U20, and I donno if I'd leave the dock on a Vipe. I like wild rides, but I prefer to keep the bulb in the water most of the time.

??

"taking the high road" seems to consist of spouting the same spiteful nonsense as Lude Sped and that guy that's trying to claim he's sold, like, -way- more Open 5.70s than there are Vipers.

I do disagree that the Viper is a dinghy with a keel.......but why dont we leave that for another day.

It really is a modern Thistle with a bulb. Name another keelboat that will easily turtle.

Yeah the 2-inch wide gun'l is a dead give away.





FB- Doug

so how does a thread about the up coming J70 end up like just about every other threat on SBA, about fucking Vipers? There are other Sport Boats in the world.

[O25 dude]

The new J whatever it might be is what it is - a Vapor Boat till they start selling them. To say its the greatest thing ever before it even exists just shows how J-brain washed you are and how little sailing you do.

You completely missed my point....if you look at my initial comment you'll see that your last sentence above is exactly what I was getting at - the boat doesn't exist and all the hyperventilating over it, positive or negative, is bullshit. Should've known the shields would go up when I made the comparison to the U20. Oh well. BTW, I'm not J booster or J hater. I formerly owned a J30 (a rare dry one), which I liked well enough, but hardly left me brainwashed. Not sure how you figured out how much sailing I do based on two posts on this thread, but with those psychic powers you should be playing powerball - you'll be a fucking billionaire in no time.

[yoyoboy]

I've heard they used to turtle occasionally back when they still had the aluminum masts and smaller bulbs. We had one turtle last year during Bacardi Cup when the squall came through. They're not a lot of fun in 45 knots, especially if you are the one on the bow keeping the jib from rising up and filling.

[jrpytlak]

Have you ever been on a viper jrpytlak? Stop being a dip-shit. The damn things are near impossible to turtle trust me, i've tried numerous times.

Damn things are too stable for my inner dingy sailor - this Nov i tossed a CB in one and raced in a mixed fleet. It blew 25, no problem. The thistle in our fleet broached, swamped and barely made it back to the dock.

troll

I do disagree that the Viper is a dinghy with a keel.......but why dont we leave that for another day.

It really is a modern Thistle with a bulb. Name another keelboat that will easily turtle.

Well..... Last time I was on a 570 in the same race as a Vipe, the Vipe turtled, broke about a 1/4 of it's rig on Alcatraz, and when they finally got it keel side down it took off on a reach for the SF city front with no one on it. This was all done by guys I know are very good. This was the same race that we took 13th out of over 150 boats on the 570. Stop being the dip shit that thinks the Vipe is the best boat on the planet.

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[jrpytlak]

so how does a thread about the up coming J70 end up like just about every other threat on SBA, about fucking Vipers? There are other Sport Boats in the world.

DITTO!

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
so how does a thread about the up coming J70 end up like just about every other threat on SBA, about fucking Vipers? There are other Sport Boats in the world.

So far the only part of this thread that is about Vipers is the guys saying how great the J-70 is

(which makes me think they need remedial English.... "might be, once it actually exists" would be the correct conjugation of that verb)

and then the same guys feel the need to talk about how much Vipers suck, U20s sink, etc etc.

FB- Doug

[Alternative]

Back on track. Some credit here for the work done by Hudson with tooling/moulds likely in transit over the holidays. Sounds promising.

(Newport, RI)- Like its "big brother" the J/111, the new J/70 speedster is beginning to take shape in the CCF Composites production facility in Bristol, Rhode Island. Hull and deck tooling look gorgeous thanks to primary tooling work created with extremely precise multi-axis CNC milling machines and later hand-polished to mirror-like perfection by the Hudson Yachts Team in Xiamen.

The production is on schedule with "the twins", the first two production boats, to be hatched and sailing in March and with full production scheduled for roll-out in April.

Major sailmakers are on-board to help in preliminary sail development on "the twins" as they start to carve up the waters of Narragansett Bay this spring off Newport, RI.

Order books on the J/70 are filling very fast, so be sure to contact your J/Dealer ASAP to get your hull reservation slot today! Start a fleet in your area and get the kids involved! It just couldn't be any easier to get a truck-load of four boats on trailers with sails under $45,000 each on your local lake or harbor!

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[hotair]

The Viper carries a lot of sail area, which makes it great in light air.
If you sail in heavy air, you can always use smaller sails for an easily controlled ride.
SF Bay and Fremantle, owners are exploring this approach and other heavy air mods.
With minor changes a J/22 main fits a Viper and makes a good practice/heavy air sail.
Put a reef point in it and go. The boat can handle anything you can.

[teener]

Hey everybody, let's join the douchebags and talk about Vipers!

[dolphinmaster]

Hey everybody, let's join the douchebags and talk about Vipers!

Aw ite,

One of the largest displays of extremely venomous VIPERS on the planet is right here in liddle oltown Wilmington, NC. The largest caged grouping of Bushmasters, Mambas, Cobras etc just about anywhere.

http://www.capefearserpentarium.com/

[Mambo Kings]

Of all the small 20ft sport boats currently built the U20 still is the most seaworthy of any of them.

Although I do respect your opinion, I have seen personally where the Open5.70 was/is the most seaworthy of the 20 footers. I'm trying to take the high road on this one, but lets just say that there were U20's and Vipers out in the same regatta...... I can tell you that over 25kn, I'd go 5.70, then U20, and I donno if I'd leave the dock on a Vipe. I like wild rides, but I prefer to keep the bulb in the water most of the time.

For those who say...the Vipers have hijacked a J70 thread - Be reasonable! The Viper owners were contributing in constructive ways about what they knew of the J70. Then some Non- Viper owners raised some comparisons to the Viper (jrpytalk doesnt own a Viper and raised the subject). Surely its useful to respond.

I think y'all know I try to be supportive of sportsboat as a whole and pretty objective. But I acknowledge I am biased towards the Viper which, for me, is the sport boat I revel in. Having said that I have sailed in all these sportboats in over 25 knots and here is my opinion:-

The Viper is a beauty in big breeze and remarkably easy to sail in 25+. I think this is primarily because it has such a flexible rig for its size and depowers more than a traditional keel boat. The loads stay incredibly light as well. In a 2010 regatta in Marblehead when a front was sat on the race course, the Etchells, Sonars, J24s Rhodes 19s all decided it was too much and went in. The breeze was 23 with gusts to 28 all recorded at CYC. The Vipers , with a pretty amateur fleet were racing not just surviving. The only other fleet which chose to complete the day was a hard core fleet of very expereinced 5-0-5 sailors.

Frankly I think the 5-0-5 is also able to depower very effectively as well. A couple of 5-0-5 sailors went swimming, but it was no sweat for them, thats waht they do. There were a couple of Viper broaches downwind but no swimmers and certainly nothing close to a turtle.

Upwind the Viper works really well in the big stuff. We crank on vang to depower and then the rig absorbs the puffs accompanied by relatively small eases on the main. Downiwnd, its an incredibly wide stable platform roaring down. I think its akin to an aircraft carrier at full throttle.....all the loads are light and its small steering adjsutments largely done by the helm using his weight. Most noticeably - it does not go bow down and submarine.

I was in the MEGA puff at Miami. That was an amazing ride. I will point out that I wouldn't choose to be out in 45 knots and an Etchell lost its rig in that puff. I stopped thinking about racing and was in "preserve " mode but I felt suprisingly safe in my Viper.

A Viper will not swamp. Even if you go right over with spreaders in the drink. When the boat comes up, and it comes up, it will be dry because of the double floor and the water just drains out the back.

This is true of a lot of the modern sport boats.

BY way of comparison with others that I have sailed in the really big stuff:-

Open 5.70. Pros : Tough little beast. Plenty of ballast recovers from broach. Rotating rig seems very sturdy downwind..
Cons:- Its gets very loaded up and heavy. Especially the forward sails are a lot more brute strength to handle than some of the other SBs. Downwind, its gets more nose down than the Viper and is a little less forgiving in puffs. It liked the breeze, but Vipers certainly can handle any breeze that the Open 5.7 is out in- no sweat.

SB3 :- Well behaved in big breeze. Lightens up nicely downwind. Pretty good groove downwind. Obviously not as fast as a Viper, but its all relative. Upwind, the backstay is a powerful way to depower and makes it more effective than you would expect with a tin rig in breeze. Combination of being a bit heavy and slow to accelerate + tendency to go bow down, means going downwind thru waves needs a good hand.

M20 :- In my experince this is really hard work upwind in big breeze especially if its puffy. Downwind she gets up and goes. Crew has to move weight back aggresively. Class has an upper wind limit for racing. I understand that they have gotten better at tuning for upwind in breeze, so I will go again.

K6 :- Very effective at depowering in puffs upwind and down. Flexible rig and lots of control. More than any of the other US sportsboats, this one is sorted to sail in 25+ as a matter of course. Easily the quickest at rebounding from a broach with no sweat. But, for me, it is dinghy hiking upwind and if you are not fit you will get very tired in a big breeze day. The Viper is significantly less athletic. But again, provided you are fit, this is really well designed for big breeze. You will feel totally in control in this boat long after you have abandoned ship in some of the other sub 23' sportboats. Wet ? yes . Out of control? No

Ultimate 20: I have sailed the U20 but never in big breeze. Looking fwd to an opportunity. The deck mounted tin rig used to fall down but that has been sorted.

J70? I agree we just dont know. But its going to be interesting with carbon rig and a backstay. That has potential on paper for being able to handle a wide wind range.

Just one persons experience.

[lowcamaro]

Of all the small 20ft sport boats currently built the U20 still is the most seaworthy of any of them.

Although I do respect your opinion, I have seen personally where the Open5.70 was/is the most seaworthy of the 20 footers. I'm trying to take the high road on this one, but lets just say that there were U20's and Vipers out in the same regatta...... I can tell you that over 25kn, I'd go 5.70, then U20, and I donno if I'd leave the dock on a Vipe. I like wild rides, but I prefer to keep the bulb in the water most of the time.

For those who say...the Vipers have hijacked a J70 thread - Be reasonable! The Viper owners were contributing in constructive ways about what they knew of the J70. Then some Non- Viper owners raised some comparisons to the Viper (jrpytalk doesnt own a Viper and raised the subject). Surely its useful to respond.

I think y'all know I try to be supportive of sportsboat as a whole and pretty objective. But I acknowledge I am biased towards the Viper which, for me, is the sport boat I revel in. Having said that I have sailed in all these sportboats in over 25 knots and here is my opinion:-

The Viper is a beauty in big breeze and remarkably easy to sail in 25+. I think this is primarily because it has such a flexible rig for its size and depowers more than a traditional keel boat. The loads stay incredibly light as well. In a 2010 regatta in Marblehead when a front was sat on the race course, the Etchells, Sonars, J24s Rhodes 19s all decided it was too much and went in. The breeze was 23 with gusts to 28 all recorded at CYC. The Vipers , with a pretty amateur fleet were racing not just surviving. The only other fleet which chose to complete the day was a hard core fleet of very expereinced 5-0-5 sailors.

Frankly I think the 5-0-5 is also able to depower very effectively as well. A couple of 5-0-5 sailors went swimming, but it was no sweat for them, thats waht they do. There were a couple of Viper broaches downwind but no swimmers and certainly nothing close to a turtle.

Upwind the Viper works really well in the big stuff. We crank on vang to depower and then the rig absorbs the puffs accompanied by relatively small eases on the main. Downiwnd, its an incredibly wide stable platform roaring down. I think its akin to an aircraft carrier at full throttle.....all the loads are light and its small steering adjsutments largely done by the helm using his weight. Most noticeably - it does not go bow down and submarine.

I was in the MEGA puff at Miami. That was an amazing ride. I will point out that I wouldn't choose to be out in 45 knots and an Etchell lost its rig in that puff. I stopped thinking about racing and was in "preserve " mode but I felt suprisingly safe in my Viper.

A Viper will not swamp. Even if you go right over with spreaders in the drink. When the boat comes up, and it comes up, it will be dry because of the double floor and the water just drains out the back.

This is true of a lot of the modern sport boats.

BY way of comparison with others that I have sailed in the really big stuff:-

Open 5.70. Pros : Tough little beast. Plenty of ballast recovers from broach. Rotating rig seems very sturdy downwind..
Cons:- Its gets very loaded up and heavy. Especially the forward sails are a lot more brute strength to handle than some of the other SBs. Downwind, its gets more nose down than the Viper and is a little less forgiving in puffs. It liked the breeze, but Vipers certainly can handle any breeze that the Open 5.7 is out in- no sweat.

SB3 :- Well behaved in big breeze. Lightens up nicely downwind. Pretty good groove downwind. Obviously not as fast as a Viper, but its all relative. Upwind, the backstay is a powerful way to depower and makes it more effective than you would expect with a tin rig in breeze. Combination of being a bit heavy and slow to accelerate + tendency to go bow down, means going downwind thru waves needs a good hand.

M20 :- In my experince this is really hard work upwind in big breeze especially if its puffy. Downwind she gets up and goes. Crew has to move weight back aggresively. Class has an upper wind limit for racing. I understand that they have gotten better at tuning for upwind in breeze, so I will go again.

K6 :- Very effective at depowering in puffs upwind and down. Flexible rig and lots of control. More than any of the other US sportsboats, this one is sorted to sail in 25+ as a matter of course. Easily the quickest at rebounding from a broach with no sweat. But, for me, it is dinghy hiking upwind and if you are not fit you will get very tired in a big breeze day. The Viper is significantly less athletic. But again, provided you are fit, this is really well designed for big breeze. You will feel totally in control in this boat long after you have abandoned ship in some of the other sub 23' sportboats. Wet ? yes . Out of control? No

Ultimate 20: I have sailed the U20 but never in big breeze. Looking fwd to an opportunity. The deck mounted tin rig used to fall down but that has been sorted.

J70? I agree we just dont know. But its going to be interesting with carbon rig and a backstay. That has potential on paper for being able to handle a wide wind range.

Just one persons experience.

Not sure I like the idea of a J70 back stay, just installed and sailed a square top mail on the Rocket 22, sailed in 19 knot breeze worked very well, able to depower easly in the puffs and power up in the lighter conditions.

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[Mambo Kings]

Not sure I like the idea of a J70 back stay, just installed and sailed a square top mail on the Rocket 22, sailed in 19 knot breeze worked very well, able to depower easly in the puffs and power up in the lighter conditions.

Im sorry. Didnt mean to omit the Rocket. I haven't sailed the Rocket in breeze, although I did sail against one in a breezy American YC fall series.

That mainsail looks drop dead gorgeous.

That could be a very good way to adjust to a wide range of wind conditions. As everyone has pointed out, we wont know how the J70 does until we get a chance to try one on the water.
Clearly they have taken a different path than the Melges 20.

[GybeSet®]

even some progressive leadbellies have dropped the backstay

in A/NZ sporties this size have never had backstays, and with rigs WAY larger than we are talking about here

if it's not obvious that the rigs are cueing off skiff technology yet then ... well ??? backstays are like putting crossply tires on ur ride

a backstay will lock the stick up, pre-stress it and the mast loses it's dynamism, a feature so enhanced with the introduction of carbon

[Mambo Kings]

even some progressive leadbellies have dropped the backstay

in A/NZ sporties this size have never had backstays, and with rigs WAY larger than we are talking about here

if it's not obvious that the rigs are cueing off skiff technology yet then ... well ??? backstays are like putting crossply tires on ur ride

a backstay will lock the stick up, pre-stress it and the mast loses it's dynamism, a feature so enhanced with the introduction of carbon

Dont get me wrong Jibeset, I like the dynamic rig approach to sailing performance boats. Credit where credit is due. We first started seeing this when aussie dinghy sailors arrived in the Northen hemisphere and going as fast as bejesus in big air with soft rigs. It caught on pretty fast.


In the US sportboat and keelboat scene though it hasnt taken root yet. The typical approach is a relatively stiff carbon rig and then as many shrouds and jumper stays as possible to hold the rig even more tightly in column and then complain that sportboats are hard to sail in breeze. Not sure why you bother with carbon if you make it as stiff as an aluminum rig.
The exception is the K6 which has a very flexible rig and continually adjustable rig tension and variable length headstay. As the breeze cranks up, the top guys add a little rake, wind on vang and carry on as if its another walk in the park. You would feel right at home with a K6 rig.

Viper is sort of a middle path. More flexible and dynamic than the most other US classes but a bit more basic than what I think skiff and a/NZ sportboat sailors wopuld call state of the art. Its a learning curve. Give us a bit more time.

If the safety net of a backstay or cross ply tires encourages a more flexible rig, then J might be pursuing a path for US sailors. But again. wait and see.

[jrpytlak]

even some progressive leadbellies have dropped the backstay

in A/NZ sporties this size have never had backstays, and with rigs WAY larger than we are talking about here

if it's not obvious that the rigs are cueing off skiff technology yet then ... well ??? backstays are like putting crossply tires on ur ride

a backstay will lock the stick up, pre-stress it and the mast loses it's dynamism, a feature so enhanced with the introduction of carbon

Dont get me wrong Jibeset, I like the dynamic rig approach to sailing performance boats. Credit where credit is due. We first started seeing this when aussie dinghy sailors arrived in the Northen hemisphere and going as fast as bejesus in big air with soft rigs. It caught on pretty fast.


In the US sportboat and keelboat scene though it hasnt taken root yet. The typical approach is a relatively stiff carbon rig and then as many shrouds and jumper stays as possible to hold the rig even more tightly in column and then complain that sportboats are hard to sail in breeze. Not sure why you bother with carbon if you make it as stiff as an aluminum rig.
The exception is the K6 which has a very flexible rig and continually adjustable rig tension and variable length headstay. As the breeze cranks up, the top guys add a little rake, wind on vang and carry on as if its another walk in the park. You would feel right at home with a K6 rig.

Viper is sort of a middle path. More flexible and dynamic than the most other US classes but a bit more basic than what I think skiff and a/NZ sportboat sailors wopuld call state of the art. Its a learning curve. Give us a bit more time.

If the safety net of a backstay or cross ply tires encourages a more flexible rig, then J might be pursuing a path for US sailors. But again. wait and see.

Dude, have you not ever seen an Antrim27/24 or U20? I can tell you, that A27's have been sailing in BIG breeze since the early 90's with carbon rig/adj forestay/no backstays.... One has even done very well to HI several times. I have done the offshore series in SF for 3 years now on one and we haven't been beat yet. I was also part of a double handed crew that won the overall series on a U24. I don't quite know what you're getting at with US guys not knowing what to do with sport boat tuning...

[ultraracer613um]

Dude, you're just a straight-up bad-ass sailor. I'm sure you could race a brick and be in the silver.

I think Mambo was talking average american like he or myself. Wait, he ain't no 'merican.. so ya, what JP said mambo!

Back to it;

Dont you think a back-stay will really tame a no-hiking boat? I'm no expert so i'm asking - seems like it would give you the ability to tune for the lulls and offer a button to push to handle the puffs. Maybe run that control up to one of the crew who could yank on it when their heels' start to hurt?

even some progressive leadbellies have dropped the backstay

in A/NZ sporties this size have never had backstays, and with rigs WAY larger than we are talking about here

if it's not obvious that the rigs are cueing off skiff technology yet then ... well ??? backstays are like putting crossply tires on ur ride

a backstay will lock the stick up, pre-stress it and the mast loses it's dynamism, a feature so enhanced with the introduction of carbon

Dont get me wrong Jibeset, I like the dynamic rig approach to sailing performance boats. Credit where credit is due. We first started seeing this when aussie dinghy sailors arrived in the Northen hemisphere and going as fast as bejesus in big air with soft rigs. It caught on pretty fast.


In the US sportboat and keelboat scene though it hasnt taken root yet. The typical approach is a relatively stiff carbon rig and then as many shrouds and jumper stays as possible to hold the rig even more tightly in column and then complain that sportboats are hard to sail in breeze. Not sure why you bother with carbon if you make it as stiff as an aluminum rig.
The exception is the K6 which has a very flexible rig and continually adjustable rig tension and variable length headstay. As the breeze cranks up, the top guys add a little rake, wind on vang and carry on as if its another walk in the park. You would feel right at home with a K6 rig.

Viper is sort of a middle path. More flexible and dynamic than the most other US classes but a bit more basic than what I think skiff and a/NZ sportboat sailors wopuld call state of the art. Its a learning curve. Give us a bit more time.

If the safety net of a backstay or cross ply tires encourages a more flexible rig, then J might be pursuing a path for US sailors. But again. wait and see.

Dude, have you not ever seen an Antrim27/24 or U20? I can tell you, that A27's have been sailing in BIG breeze since the early 90's with carbon rig/adj forestay/no backstays.... One has even done very well to HI several times. I have done the offshore series in SF for 3 years now on one and we haven't been beat yet. I was also part of a double handed crew that won the overall series on a U24. I don't quite know what you're getting at with US guys not knowing what to do with sport boat tuning...

[Mambo Kings]

even some progressive leadbellies have dropped the backstay

in A/NZ sporties this size have never had backstays, and with rigs WAY larger than we are talking about here

if it's not obvious that the rigs are cueing off skiff technology yet then ... well ??? backstays are like putting crossply tires on ur ride

a backstay will lock the stick up, pre-stress it and the mast loses it's dynamism, a feature so enhanced with the introduction of carbon

Dont get me wrong Jibeset, I like the dynamic rig approach to sailing performance boats. Credit where credit is due. We first started seeing this when aussie dinghy sailors arrived in the Northen hemisphere and going as fast as bejesus in big air with soft rigs. It caught on pretty fast.


In the US sportboat and keelboat scene though it hasnt taken root yet. The typical approach is a relatively stiff carbon rig and then as many shrouds and jumper stays as possible to hold the rig even more tightly in column and then complain that sportboats are hard to sail in breeze. Not sure why you bother with carbon if you make it as stiff as an aluminum rig.
The exception is the K6 which has a very flexible rig and continually adjustable rig tension and variable length headstay. As the breeze cranks up, the top guys add a little rake, wind on vang and carry on as if its another walk in the park. You would feel right at home with a K6 rig.

Viper is sort of a middle path. More flexible and dynamic than the most other US classes but a bit more basic than what I think skiff and a/NZ sportboat sailors wopuld call state of the art. Its a learning curve. Give us a bit more time.

If the safety net of a backstay or cross ply tires encourages a more flexible rig, then J might be pursuing a path for US sailors. But again. wait and see.

Dude, have you not ever seen an Antrim27/24 or U20? I can tell you, that A27's have been sailing in BIG breeze since the early 90's with carbon rig/adj forestay/no backstays.... One has even done very well to HI several times. I have done the offshore series in SF for 3 years now on one and we haven't been beat yet. I was also part of a double handed crew that won the overall series on a U24. I don't quite know what you're getting at with US guys not knowing what to do with sport boat tuning...

I am in awe of many big breeze talents in the US. But there are different ways of setting up a rig for big breeze.


I was remarking to Gybeset, that in the US, very few classes switch to a dynamic rig set up in big breeze in the US. I haven't seen Antrims in action, and they sound like great boats from a great designer. How do you tune for big breeze? I have seen U20s in big breeze and I have seen the tuning guides from the top sailmakers and they all recommend tight rigs. Looking at the boat and rig plan, I think that is the best way to sail the boat.

On the East coast , at least, pretty much the only class (which has no lowers to the spreaders) which thrives in big breeze by allowing the mast to take full advantage of dynamic movement upwind is the K6.

Hence our remark about backstays not killing dynamic rig set up.

The Viper is a mid course where some teams ease our lowers in big breeze.....but as I remarked earlier its not a full out dynamic rig tune. We cannot ease our rig tension too much because the headstay gets too soft.

[Frank]

even some progressive leadbellies have dropped the backstay

in A/NZ sporties this size have never had backstays, and with rigs WAY larger than we are talking about here

if it's not obvious that the rigs are cueing off skiff technology yet then ... well ??? backstays are like putting crossply tires on ur ride

a backstay will lock the stick up, pre-stress it and the mast loses it's dynamism, a feature so enhanced with the introduction of carbon

What boats exactly are you talking about? I can't think of one 7m boat designed in the last 10 years that doesn't have either a single or duel backstays.
The Thompson 7 doesn't but that is far from I would call a skiff style rig. More a power pole holding sails up. The shaw 650 doesn't but it is a pretty small boat and rig compared to this J70.
I think the days of dynamic masts have past. The new sportsboats such as "Kiss" have massive mast section in the tips that are really stiff to hold up the big heads and then duel backstays. all the stealths are similar aswell, even all 3, 7m's have duel backstays.

[trenace]

How can you say that the Shaw rig is small, big, or anything compared to the J/70?

When did J Boats put out sail area or mast height?

[Mambo Kings]

Back on topic.


The NYYC have announced that the J70 will be used for the NYYC invitational qualifying series :- http://invitationalc...alifying-series

This is a very shrewd marketing move. We can say what we like about what little we know about the boat, but the Johnstones know something about how to promote a boat.


Newport, R.I., USA (January 18, 2012) – The New York Yacht Club (NYYC) announced today that the new J/70 (image above) will be featured at the 2012 NYYC Invitational Cup U.S. Qualifying Series (USQS). The J/70 will join the NYYC's fleet of Sonars when 24 of the nation's most competitive yacht clubs compete in the NYYC Invitational Cup USQS off Newport, RI from September 4 to 8, 2012. The top three finishers will earn the right to compete in the 2013 NYYC Invitational Cup presented by Rolex.The USQS will continue the successful format from 2010 in which teams compete in two fleets of one-design keelboats. By utilizing the J/70, a modern high-performance planing keelboat 22.7' in length with an asymmetrical spinnaker – along with the 23' Sonar with its symmetrical spinnaker -- the NYYC is raising the bar for competitors by testing their versatility across different boat designs as well as allowing the final decision to be made in a boat closer in philosophy to the NYYC Swan 42 -- the yacht used in the international event.

The J/70 is J Boats' ramp launch-able keelboat, making its world debut this spring in Newport, RI. It is designed as an easy-to-own, high-performance one-design that is stable enough for the family and built to last. Notable features include a high-aspect carbon rig, vertical-lifting keel, manageable three-sail inventory (fat-head main, roller-furling jib and masthead-asymmetric spinnaker) and large cockpit to accommodate a racing crew of three or four. "We're excited to have the J/70 involved in this prestigious event," said Jeff Johnstone, president of J Boats. "The teams will find the boats well-balanced upwind and down and a blast to sail." The J/70 is being built in the USA, by CCF Composites of Bristol, RI, builder of the J/95 and J/111.

Both the Invitational Cup and the USQS are for Corinthian (amateur) sailors who represent their yacht clubs. "The 2012 USQS will provide teams with some of the most challenging sailing possible by continuing the dual-fleet format and testing sailors in both traditional one-designs (Sonars) and modern high-performance keelboats (J/70)," said Will Crump, event co-chair, who added, "We expect to announce the invited clubs soon."

In the inaugural NYYC Invitational Cup presented by Rolex in 2009, 19 yacht club teams from 14 countries, from four continents competed. The winner was the team from the host NYYC. In the 2010 USQS, 24 yacht club teams from the U.S. competed. Eastern Yacht Club won the USQS followed by Annapolis Yacht Club and Newport Harbor Yacht Club (Calif.). The second biennial Invitational Cup presented by Rolex in 2011 saw 22 yacht club teams from 16 nations from six continents compete. The winner was the team from the Royal Canadian Yacht Club.

[hotair]

Perhaps I missed it, but does anyone have diminsional info on the J70?
Beam - Will it fit through an 8ft garage door ?
P,E,J, I
Mast weight
Distance from cockpit floor to boom (working headroom) ?
Keel depth & hoist system?
Rudder - Drop-in, cassette or swing up?

[trenace]

Beam: "The J/70 hull plug looks simply spectacular. The hull form was initially cut with a 5-axis robotic milling machine, and then faired and long-boarded to match hull fairing templates."

P,E,J, I, and mast weight: "The J/70 sports an impressive carbon rigging package from Southern Spars."

Distance from cockpit floor to boom: "EVERYONE CAN RELAX AND ENJOY. Creature comforts come in many forms on the J/70. The 11' long cockpit and moderate height boom allow easy crew movement across the cockpit while tacking and jibing."

Keel depth and hoist system: "Launch at the local boat ramp, raise the lightweight all carbon rig, lower the lifting bulb keel, hoist the sails and off you go on a sailing adventure in less than 30 minutes. The only limitations are how far you want to drive and willingness to camp in the great outdoors. Trailerable behind a family minivan or SUV, you can go anywhere."

Rudder: "Off the wind, J/70 will simply light-up the crew with a smile! Set the masthead asymmetrical spinnaker off the retractable carbon bowsprit, point the J/70 where you want with its deep, high-aspect rudder and the J/70 pops up on a plane and takes off in a moderate breeze. J/70 is all about making sailing inclusive, not exclusive. "

[ultraracer613um]

So far, so good. I like the concept, a lot.

Beam: "The J/70 hull plug looks simply spectacular. The hull form was initially cut with a 5-axis robotic milling machine, and then faired and long-boarded to match hull fairing templates."

P,E,J, I, and mast weight: "The J/70 sports an impressive carbon rigging package from Southern Spars."

Distance from cockpit floor to boom: "EVERYONE CAN RELAX AND ENJOY. Creature comforts come in many forms on the J/70. The 11' long cockpit and moderate height boom allow easy crew movement across the cockpit while tacking and jibing."

Keel depth and hoist system: "Launch at the local boat ramp, raise the lightweight all carbon rig, lower the lifting bulb keel, hoist the sails and off you go on a sailing adventure in less than 30 minutes. The only limitations are how far you want to drive and willingness to camp in the great outdoors. Trailerable behind a family minivan or SUV, you can go anywhere."

Rudder: "Off the wind, J/70 will simply light-up the crew with a smile! Set the masthead asymmetrical spinnaker off the retractable carbon bowsprit, point the J/70 where you want with its deep, high-aspect rudder and the J/70 pops up on a plane and takes off in a moderate breeze. J/70 is all about making sailing inclusive, not exclusive. "

[trenace]

Well, actually I meant it as, J Boats is providing only ad-speak, not facts. Those were the closest to facts that I could find on the quite-pertinent questions that hotair had.

Why J Boats isn't supplying even basics such as beam and sail area, etc, I don't know, except perhaps that there is a marketing theory that facts will often be found unsuitable by some people, and the more facts given, the more people may find the product unsuitable; but good ad copy can appeal to nearly everyone.

Right now the J/70 is all things to all people: it's simultaneously high performance to those hoping for that, and family-friendly in all weather and "inclusive" for those wanting that.

Those that guess it has a rig as big as or bigger than a Shaw are free to think that; and those that guess it has a rig perhaps more like 200 ft2 are free to think that. The boat can be to you whatever you want it to be! That way everyone will keep reading the promotional material, and perhaps the wife will be sold on it or whatever during that time period, and bingo.

When facts finally are provided, it won't be possible to be all things to all people anymore.

The boat will fit a particular niche.

The best information we have on where that niche is seems to be from the Johnstone claim that it will rate like a J/80, and as a personal guess I'd bet that the family friendly in all weather, "inclusive" part is true too.

[BIAM]

This is a very shrewd marketing move. We can say what we like about what little we know about the boat, but the Johnstones know something about how to promote a boat.

I believe we can all agree on that...although the Viper crowd seems to be pretty able marketers in the internet world...

its all good if it gets people into these boats...

in the end, a little extra performance one way or the other isn't going to win the day, its all about class/fleet development, and managing relatively deep pocketed consumers...

[hotair]

For quick comparison
PHRF range

Viper 640 ( 96-108)
J/80 (114-123)

Please correct or add to the list.

[White Wing]

Well, actually I meant it as, J Boats is providing only ad-speak, not facts. Those were the closest to facts that I could find on the quite-pertinent questions that hotair had.

Why J Boats isn't supplying even basics such as beam and sail area, etc, I don't know, except perhaps that there is a marketing theory that facts will often be found unsuitable by some people, and the more facts given, the more people may find the product unsuitable; but good ad copy can appeal to nearly everyone.

Right now the J/70 is all things to all people: it's simultaneously high performance to those hoping for that, and family-friendly in all weather and "inclusive" for those wanting that.

Those that guess it has a rig as big as or bigger than a Shaw are free to think that; and those that guess it has a rig perhaps more like 200 ft2 are free to think that. The boat can be to you whatever you want it to be! That way everyone will keep reading the promotional material, and perhaps the wife will be sold on it or whatever during that time period, and bingo.

When facts finally are provided, it won't be possible to be all things to all people anymore.

The boat will fit a particular niche.

The best information we have on where that niche is seems to be from the Johnstone claim that it will rate like a J/80, and as a personal guess I'd bet that the family friendly in all weather, "inclusive" part is true too.

I believe that J/Boats isn't identifying key dimensions because they aren't set yet --- when Melges built the first 2 Melges 20's, they brought them to SF and tried out different rigs and bulbs. I sailed the two on that weekend, and the boats behaved differently as you would expect. After testing in SF and elsewhere, the Zenda team made their final decisions. At the time, Melges had already put out some specs, and the final boats ended up close to those, but not exactly. Maybe J/boats is looking at it the same way --- build a couple and test out some options, then decide which rig/bulb/SA combo fits their potential customers the best.

WWing

[trenace]

With regard to sail area, that could well be.

With regard to beam and most of the questions hotair had, I would think they'd be determined already.

It is unusual that there isn't even a drawing of the rig. It seems that even vaporware boats always have that, and manufacturers of boats actually reaching production don't seem to have felt stopped by concerns that the final product might differ a bit from the drawings.

J Boats seems to be avoiding allowing even a general idea of the sail area, other than what one might estimate from rating reportedly expected to be similar to a J/80 (which would mean considerably less sail area, as it will almost undoubtedly be considerably lighter.)

[hermetic]

Back on topic.


Notable features include a high-aspect carbon rig, vertical-lifting keel, manageable three-sail inventory (fat-head main, roller-furling jib and masthead-asymmetric spinnaker)

This could be the answer to the whining about backstay(s) or "dynamic" mast tuning.

[Steam Flyer]

Beam: "The J/70 hull plug looks simply spectacular. The hull form was initially cut with a 5-axis... ..."

P,E,J, I, and mast weight: "The J/70 sports an impressive carbon rigging package from Southern Spars."

Distance from cockpit floor to boom: "EVERYONE CAN RELAX AND ENJOY. Creature comforts come in many... ..."

Keel depth and hoist system: "Launch at the local boat ramp, raise the lightweight all carbon... ..."

Rudder: "Off the wind, J/70 will simply light-up ... ... "

Nice

It's clear that the J-70 is a uniter, not a divider


FB- DOug

[EYESAILOR]

For quick comparison
PHRF range

Viper 640 ( 96-108)
J/80 (114-123)

Please correct or add to the list.

J 70 (96-123)

[crash]

Well, actually I meant it as, J Boats is providing only ad-speak, not facts. Those were the closest to facts that I could find on the quite-pertinent questions that hotair had.

Why J Boats isn't supplying even basics such as beam and sail area, etc, I don't know, except perhaps that there is a marketing theory that facts will often be found unsuitable by some people, and the more facts given, the more people may find the product unsuitable; but good ad copy can appeal to nearly everyone.

Right now the J/70 is all things to all people: it's simultaneously high performance to those hoping for that, and family-friendly in all weather and "inclusive" for those wanting that.

Those that guess it has a rig as big as or bigger than a Shaw are free to think that; and those that guess it has a rig perhaps more like 200 ft2 are free to think that. The boat can be to you whatever you want it to be! That way everyone will keep reading the promotional material, and perhaps the wife will be sold on it or whatever during that time period, and bingo.

When facts finally are provided, it won't be possible to be all things to all people anymore.

The boat will fit a particular niche.

The best information we have on where that niche is seems to be from the Johnstone claim that it will rate like a J/80, and as a personal guess I'd bet that the family friendly in all weather, "inclusive" part is true too.

As has been pointed out repeatedly by both detractors and supporters, there is no boat yet. First 2 boats start testing in March. Why open themselves up to "analysis" and pre-judgement from the world of the internet if you haven't nailed it all down yet? Especially as most of those folks that will do that analysis and pre-judgement are not likely serious customers anyway? Any one that has expressed a valid interest in the boat with an actual J-Boats dealer has likely received more details, but until production is locked down, why should they release more info? Where is the business case that says it will lead to more sales?

[TOTALXS]

It seems to me that the marketing strategy of the J70 is working perfectly. At this point in time, it makes no difference if the posts made about the boat are positive or negative. Just that it is being posted about. And it seems everybody, from Viper addicts to armchair experts, are indeed talking about it. Exactly what they want and need at this point.

Of course, to have it all worthwhile in the end, the boats had better wow us all when they do sail.

[dolphinmaster]

For quick comparison
PHRF range

Viper 640 ( 96-108)
J/80 (114-123)

Please correct or add to the list.

J 70 (96-123)

hope they don't pop out another Blusail 24. Those things just seem to be slow and have gotten no traction.

[GybeSet®]

For quick comparison
PHRF range

Viper 640 ( 96-108)
J/80 (114-123)

Please correct or add to the list.

J 70 (96-123)

with no hiking RM ?

(123-123)

[Viper55]

It seems to me that the marketing strategy of the J70 is working perfectly. At this point in time, it makes no difference if the posts made about the boat are positive or negative. Just that it is being posted about. And it seems everybody, from Viper addicts to armchair experts, are indeed talking about it. Exactly what they want and need at this point.

Of course, to have it all worthwhile in the end, the boats had better wow us all when they do sail.

I think they know that there are customers out there thinking of going to a retractable keel, whether Viper, VX, U20, Melges, whatever....and J boats wanted to let them know that they will have a model coming in 2012, so don't pull the trigger yet. Especially the existing loyal J boat owners who may be looking. As a Viper owner, I have been paying attention to their press releases and plan on going to Newport and checking the boat out. I hope it's a big success for them.

[akasideshow]

This is a very shrewd marketing move. We can say what we like about what little we know about the boat, but the Johnstones know something about how to promote a boat.

I believe we can all agree on that...although the Viper crowd seems to be pretty able marketers in the internet world...

its all good if it gets people into these boats...

in the end, a little extra performance one way or the other isn't going to win the day, its all about class/fleet development, and managing relatively deep pocketed consumers...

so you work for j boats then,
I remember how you did your best to kill the ft10 development
continually crapping on about how they were cheap chinese shit and would fall apart
well 5+ years on you couldn't be wronger, still stiff strong fast and handing it to much pricier boats
and here you are singing the praises of a boat that doesn't exist yet and when it does will be little more than a step into the new century for a lot of J24 owners
you my friend are a turdstain

by the way you never did answer my question from a couple of years ago - What do you sail on?

[BIAM]

you my friend are a turdstain

by the way you never did answer my question from a couple of years ago - What do you sail on?

now you've gone and hurt my feelings..

but your precious FT turned into quite a fleet Is George now in charge of recruiting new owners? Talk about a marketing disaster...could they have done anything more to shoot themselves in the foot?

[EYESAILOR]

Surely the J70 is competing with the FT 7.5 , not the FT 10.0.

How is the FT 7.5 fleet growth?

Why do boat builders and designers have this overwhelming urge to carve up our one design fleets into ever smaller segments? Well, I know they each want a piece of the pie, no matter how small. But why do we let them do this to us?

[BIAM]

Surely the J70 is competing with the FT 7.5

thanks, i needed a good laugh...

[trenace]

Why do boat builders and designers have this overwhelming urge to carve up our one design fleets into ever smaller segments? Well, I know they each want a piece of the pie, no matter how small. But why do we let them do this to us?

Indeed, why do we let people buy the boats they want instead of the ones you want them to?

[jokerx9]

Casue sailors are assholes. Im not ashamed to admit it, but we are. Nobody cares about getting someone into sailing, they just care about getting them into THEIR fleet because THEIR fleet and boat is SO much better than the other guys. Its easy to understand why our sport is such a niche market and why its been on the decline for years.

[lowcamaro]

Well, actually I meant it as, J Boats is providing only ad-speak, not facts. Those were the closest to facts that I could find on the quite-pertinent questions that hotair had.

Why J Boats isn't supplying even basics such as beam and sail area, etc, I don't know, except perhaps that there is a marketing theory that facts will often be found unsuitable by some people, and the more facts given, the more people may find the product unsuitable; but good ad copy can appeal to nearly everyone.

Right now the J/70 is all things to all people: it's simultaneously high performance to those hoping for that, and family-friendly in all weather and "inclusive" for those wanting that.

Those that guess it has a rig as big as or bigger than a Shaw are free to think that; and those that guess it has a rig perhaps more like 200 ft2 are free to think that. The boat can be to you whatever you want it to be! That way everyone will keep reading the promotional material, and perhaps the wife will be sold on it or whatever during that time period, and bingo.

When facts finally are provided, it won't be possible to be all things to all people anymore.

The boat will fit a particular niche.

The best information we have on where that niche is seems to be from the Johnstone claim that it will rate like a J/80, and as a personal guess I'd bet that the family friendly in all weather, "inclusive" part is true too.

As has been pointed out repeatedly by both detractors and supporters, there is no boat yet. First 2 boats start testing in March. Why open themselves up to "analysis" and pre-judgement from the world of the internet if you haven't nailed it all down yet? Especially as most of those folks that will do that analysis and pre-judgement are not likely serious customers anyway? Any one that has expressed a valid interest in the boat with an actual J-Boats dealer has likely received more details, but until production is locked down, why should they release more info? Where is the business case that says it will lead to more sales?

yep, as Joe Strummer said, "the future is unwriten"

[GybeSet®]

http://www.northpoin...cifications.pdf

note draft(low) , this is a M24 knock-off in the sense that it's treading on safe-ground of an early 90s design

what is not clear is how they are going to prevent 'tenderness' given it hasn't the hiking facility of the M

----------------------------------

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf

a few more clues here, you could reverse calculate the SA from the SA/Dspl ratio for instance

what is NOT here is the vital spec that will tell us straight up how far "on its ear" upwind this boat will be , the bulb weight

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

[crash]

http://www.northpoin...cifications.pdf

note draft(low) , this is a M24 knock-off in the sense that it's treading on safe-ground of an early 90s design

what is not clear is how they are going to prevent 'tenderness' given it hasn't the hiking facility of the M

----------------------------------

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf

a few more clues here, you could reverse calculate the SA from the SA/Dspl ratio for instance

what is NOT here is the vital spec that will tell us straight up how far "on its ear" upwind this boat will be , the bulb weight

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

Not that strange, in general, skinny boats go upwind better than fat boats...the 111's beam is .7ft less than the 109's, and the 109 isn't the beamiest boat around either....but 'tis speculation till we know bulb weight and get to sail on a real boat....

[EYESAILOR]

http://www.northpoin...cifications.pdf

note draft(low) , this is a M24 knock-off in the sense that it's treading on safe-ground of an early 90s design

what is not clear is how they are going to prevent 'tenderness' given it hasn't the hiking facility of the M

----------------------------------

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf

a few more clues here, you could reverse calculate the SA from the SA/Dspl ratio for instance

what is NOT here is the vital spec that will tell us straight up how far "on its ear" upwind this boat will be , the bulb weight

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

Does look kinda dated.

Nevertheless we have signed up for a demo sail, and we probably fit under the category of "seriously interested". But we are not vaporware types who plunk down deposits sight unseen on boats they haven't sailed.

[EYESAILOR]

http://www.northpoin...cifications.pdf

note draft(low) , this is a M24 knock-off in the sense that it's treading on safe-ground of an early 90s design

what is not clear is how they are going to prevent 'tenderness' given it hasn't the hiking facility of the M

----------------------------------

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf

a few more clues here, you could reverse calculate the SA from the SA/Dspl ratio for instance

what is NOT here is the vital spec that will tell us straight up how far "on its ear" upwind this boat will be , the bulb weight

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

Not that strange, in general, skinny boats go upwind better than fat boats...the 111's beam is .7ft less than the 109's, and the 109 isn't the beamiest boat around either....but 'tis speculation till we know bulb weight and get to sail on a real boat....

8' 2" beam would require special permits on some US roads and would not fit in a standard container. 7.4'? I agree seems a bit skinny.

[GybeSet®]

8' 2" beam would require special permits on some US roads and would not fit in a standard container. 7.4'? I agree seems a bit skinny.

Melges24 is 8'2" and they go everywhere, again what comparable trailables are not >8' ?

10' wide boats go into containers, but i think you may be onto something, maybe this beam allows three into a container instead of two, or sumpin like that

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

Not that strange, in general, skinny boats go upwind better than fat boats...the 111's beam is .7ft less than the 109's, and the 109 isn't the beamiest boat around either....but 'tis speculation till we know bulb weight and get to sail on a real boat....

yes strange for a trailable, VERY
you are talking about yachts that are ballasted by heaps of LEAD, you cannot bring yacht specs over to mean anything here

these boats are sat down by crew weight & hull form stability, both of which rely on beam

show me any other 23-26 foot trailables narrower than 8'
the Magic 25 was but it had 3/4 trapezes

[akasideshow]

http://www.northpoin...cifications.pdf

note draft(low) , this is a M24 knock-off in the sense that it's treading on safe-ground of an early 90s design

what is not clear is how they are going to prevent 'tenderness' given it hasn't the hiking facility of the M

----------------------------------

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf

a few more clues here, you could reverse calculate the SA from the SA/Dspl ratio for instance

what is NOT here is the vital spec that will tell us straight up how far "on its ear" upwind this boat will be , the bulb weight

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

so
if it looks like a dog
and sounds like a dog........


is it just me or does anyone else think a balsa core is possibly out-dated ?
well FWIW the only benefit this boat brings to sailing is that J24 owners who transfer to the J70 will have marginally less people laughing at them in the pub
it's like they got all the modern stuff that makes sailing easier and depowered it.
retractable sprit?

I'm not a fan but I'm far from surprised

[GybeSet®]

thers a large industry in the US digging wet balsa out of locally built boats, incl Js

yeah seems things are locked in at about the early 90s

i think it looks quite OK but cannot see how it will go upwind in any kind of pressure

this US non-hiking SB thing is stupid, how else can you lighten up in the bulb dept if the crew doesn't sit it down, and this one is only a 3-hander and not out to width as well ???????????

you know the E-7s (same displ.) here can go to 5 crew if it's blowing, and they are hiking !

[DAK]

So... we want 5 crew? No dog in this fight, just looks like a boat that is going to sell if they keep the price right. I'd give up 5% speed in exchange for not having to look to 2 more crew.

[Ryley]

Balsa is still a fine material for core, and as long as your builders know what they are doing, it lasts a long, long time. Also, it's about 1/3 - 1/2 the price of foam core, and they *are* trying to bring these boats in at under $50k, so material cost is a consideration.

[crash]

Balsa is still a fine material for core, and as long as your builders know what they are doing, it lasts a long, long time. Also, it's about 1/3 - 1/2 the price of foam core, and they *are* trying to bring these boats in at under $50k, so material cost is a consideration.

+1. Not to mention foam gets wet too. Granted it doesn't rot like balsa can, but a wet foam core can still lead to delams and cracks in the deck when it freezes, etc. Not to mention that particularly from a cost standpoint balsa's weight and shear strength are hard to beat. Nothing wrong with foam..its just not the be all and end all some people make it out to be. And yes, I have a balsa cored boat and just finished spending the best part of a year digging it out all the wet rotten parts...its time consuming to do yourself, but it sure ain't rocket science, and the boats 25years old. So not too much to complain about....

[crash]

thers a large industry in the US digging wet balsa out of locally built boats, incl Js

yeah seems things are locked in at about the early 90s

i think it looks quite OK but cannot see how it will go upwind in any kind of pressure

this US non-hiking SB thing is stupid, how else can you lighten up in the bulb dept if the crew doesn't sit it down, and this one is only a 3-hander and not out to width as well ???????????

you know the E-7s (same displ.) here can go to 5 crew if it's blowing, and they are hiking !

I don't think they are really trying to lighten up in the bulb dept. They are trying to build a small "yachtie" to use your words, that can, in moderate conditions, plane off the wind. They are not trying to build a "sportie" a la a Shaw or a Viper. Why should they? If that's what someone wants, there are already plenty of good alternatives out there.

[hermetic]

http://www.northpoin...cifications.pdf

note draft(low) , this is a M24 knock-off in the sense that it's treading on safe-ground of an early 90s design

what is not clear is how they are going to prevent 'tenderness' given it hasn't the hiking facility of the M

----------------------------------

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf

a few more clues here, you could reverse calculate the SA from the SA/Dspl ratio for instance

what is NOT here is the vital spec that will tell us straight up how far "on its ear" upwind this boat will be , the bulb weight

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

Whahappened to the fathead yelled out in the NYYC blurb?

[hotair]

I just measured the scaled drawing and came up with a beam of 8.05 feet, based on a L.O.A. of 22.75 feet.

[hotair]

Additional measurements from drawings (approx)
P 25.75
E 9.658
I 25.75
J 7.51

[slap]

I just measured the scaled drawing and came up with a beam of 8.05 feet, based on a L.O.A. of 22.75 feet.

The specs on the drawing state a 2.25 meter beam, but just in case I measured the drawing, and came up with...... 2.25m beam (7.38 feet).

[crash]

http://www.northpoin...cifications.pdf

note draft(low) , this is a M24 knock-off in the sense that it's treading on safe-ground of an early 90s design

what is not clear is how they are going to prevent 'tenderness' given it hasn't the hiking facility of the M

----------------------------------

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf

a few more clues here, you could reverse calculate the SA from the SA/Dspl ratio for instance

what is NOT here is the vital spec that will tell us straight up how far "on its ear" upwind this boat will be , the bulb weight

the other strange figure is the "sub trailering" beam width of 7.38 feet, this is odd because 99% of trailer yachts go to the international 8'2" 2.5m to give RM a fighting chance

Whahappened to the fathead yelled out in the NYYC blurb?

Too much fatter and you'd have a flat top and need to ditch the backstay, which they obviously are intentionally keeping.

[hotair]

Ah yes, the aspect ratio on my screen is not correct (circles are not round) , my bad.
Never mind

[GybeSet®]

I don't think they are really trying to lighten up in the bulb dept. They are trying to build a small "yachtie" to use your words, that can, in moderate conditions, plane off the wind. They are not trying to build a "sportie" a la a Shaw or a Viper. Why should they? If that's what someone wants, there are already plenty of good alternatives out there.

I'm not working on 'perceptions' on what it should be called or it's niche
PURE figures is all, decades of trailable mixed design racing (not OD) has made the figures very obvious to us 'down here'

you won't get the 'inboard crew' option of a yacht ( or cruising j/80) without a considerable amount of weight in the keel

your missing the critical figures, mainly the disp and potential keel and crew weights, and just as importantly ( if your'e short on crew weight and/or hullform stab., or Bmax) where the crew is positioned

at 1600^ it is not going to be '23' yacht' weight, it's 'trailerable", or sporty weight

the others get their RM from somewhere
FT7.5 from a 1000lb keel
M-24 from hiking enhancements & 4 crew
Rocket from a 10' beam and massive hullform stability
U-24 750lb keel
Longtze Premier 660lb keel
Thompson 7 >750lb keel
a 100 aus/nz designs Ts, Es, Ys from stacking crew

forget the 'ballasted skiff' types, this is of the larger 'cab type'

From what we already know on similarly specced boats you will need 650^ in the bulb, but thats in wider boats with min. 4 crew hiking and the bulb swung lower
The closest in specs, an E-7 gets away with 550lb bulb but can move onto 5 crew in breeze, but again thats with an 8' wide quite high stability hull form, and 4/5 hiking, and the bulb swung lower

we'll have to see here

J should move their final testing to SF Bay NOW, before releasing this boat, and keep adding bulb until this design is sailable, even if it means re-issuing the overall weight figures, or allowing hiking and an appropriate # of crew

btw how do they know this before the mould was finished ? ?
" stability that feels like a much larger boat. Knifing through the water upwind with confidence and ease, the J/70 has that legendary "J" feel - light, controllable with a wide-groove to sail consistently fast "

It won't be doing anything like the above without the required RM

[crash]

I don't think they are really trying to lighten up in the bulb dept. They are trying to build a small "yachtie" to use your words, that can, in moderate conditions, plane off the wind. They are not trying to build a "sportie" a la a Shaw or a Viper. Why should they? If that's what someone wants, there are already plenty of good alternatives out there.

I'm not working on 'perceptions' on what it should be called or it's niche
PURE figures is all, decades of trailable mixed design racing (not OD) has made the figures very obvious to us 'down here'

you won't get the 'inboard crew' option of a yacht ( or cruising j/80) without a considerable amount of weight in the keel

your missing the critical figures, mainly the disp and potential keel and crew weights, and just as importantly ( if your'e short on crew weight and/or hullform stab., or Bmax) where the crew is positioned

at 1600^ it is not going to be '23' yacht' weight, it's 'trailerable", or sporty weight

the others get their RM from somewhere
FT7.5 from a 1000lb keel
U-24 750lb keel
M-24 from hiking enhancements & 4 crew
Rocket from a 10' beam and hullform stability
a 100 aus/nz designs Ts, Es, Ys from stacking crew

forget the 'ballasted skiff' types, this is of the larger 'cab type'

From what we already know on similarly specced boats you will need 650^ in the bulb, but thats in wider boats with min. 4 crew hiking and the bulb swung lower
an E-7 gets away with 550lb bulb but can move onto 5 crew in breeze, but again thats with an 8' wide quite high stability hull form, and 4/5 hiking, and the bulb swung lower

we'll have to see here

J should move their final testing to SF Bay NOW, before releasing this boat, and keep adding bulb until this design is sailable, even if it means re-issuing the overall weight figures, or allowing hiking and an appropriate # of crew

btw how do they know this before the mould was finished ? ?
" stability that feels like a much larger boat. Knifing through the water upwind with confidence and ease, the J/70 has that legendary "J" feel - light, controllable with a wide-groove to sail consistently fast "

It won't be doing the above with the required RM

So a J-22 displaces 1790 lbs with a 700 lb "Petersonesque" fin keel and a 4ft draft. Given the J/70 displacement of 1600lbs, lets say the hulls weigh the same. So the hull is 1090, leaving 510 for a bulbed keel that is .75 feet deeper. Not sure it will be as tender as you think. J/111 has a length/beam ratio of 3.3 and J-27 was 3.2. J/70s is 3.0 so its proportionally beamer then either of those two boats. But I'm not a Naval Arch, so will leave this discussion to those who are. I think J has got a pretty good track record for making "sailable" designs, so I'll bet they get this one right to. I might be wrong...

[GybeSet®]

appreciate the reverse engineering of the 22 mate, correct scale ( but not the 111 unless you bring over the bulb comparison too, you can't do 'yacht' spec comparisons)

So a J-22 displaces 1790 lbs with a 700 lb "Petersonesque" fin keel and a 4ft draft.

this boat too will need 700, believe it

question is will it get it

you might note that the 22 is the full 'standard' beam necessary ... 8'

[EYESAILOR]

UGH Balsa Core. UGH UGH UGH.

Sorry I have bad memories from a boat with balsa core. I'm not looking forward to that again. How much extra would a foam core cost for a boat this size?

Fancy carbon boom but balsa core.

This is still my #1 interest but J Boats, if you are reading this, please reconsider the balsa core.

[crash]

appreciate the reverse engineering of the 22 mate, correct scale ( but not the 111 unless you bring over the bulb comparison too, you can't do 'yacht' spec comparisons)

So a J-22 displaces 1790 lbs with a 700 lb "Petersonesque" fin keel and a 4ft draft.

this boat too will need 700, believe it

question is will it get it

you might note that the 22 is the full 'standard' beam necessary ... 8'

YOu might be right...as I said, I'm not a Naval Arch. But having said that, the J/111 has a disp of 9500lbs and a ballast of 3450lbs for a ballast to disp ratio of .363. J/70 would need 580lbs ballast to achieve the same ballast to disp ratio. Has same upwind SA/Disp ratio as J/111. Its beamer then the J/111. I'd bet on a Bulb weight between 550 and 600 if I were a betting man. Which I'm not...

[crash]

UGH Balsa Core. UGH UGH UGH.

Sorry I have bad memories from a boat with balsa core. I'm not looking forward to that again. How much extra would a foam core cost for a boat this size?

Fancy carbon boom but balsa core.

This is still my #1 interest but J Boats, if you are reading this, please reconsider the balsa core.

J - and most other builders that are still in business from the late 70/8s0 that built cored boats have learned to isolate the core anywhere there is going to be a thru-hull or thru-deck fitting. Not saying it will never get water into it, but iif my non-isolated core S2 9.1 lasted 25 years before it repairs were an absolute requirement, I'd bet you'd have long sold your J/70 before you ever saw any core issues. My humble opinion. YMMV...

[us7070]

UGH Balsa Core. UGH UGH UGH.

Sorry I have bad memories from a boat with balsa core. I'm not looking forward to that again. How much extra would a foam core cost for a boat this size?

Fancy carbon boom but balsa core.

This is still my #1 interest but J Boats, if you are reading this, please reconsider the balsa core.

J - and most other builders that are still in business from the late 70/8s0 that built cored boats have learned to isolate the core anywhere there is going to be a thru-hull or thru-deck fitting. Not saying it will never get water into it, but iif my non-isolated core S2 9.1 lasted 25 years before it repairs were an absolute requirement, I'd bet you'd have long sold your J/70 before you ever saw any core issues. My humble opinion. YMMV...

oh great!

someone else will end up with the problem.

it may be true that foam cored boats have just as many problems as balsa core boats, but i don't see it...

i regularly see balsa cored boats with moderate to serious issues, that can be quite expensive to fix.

last year i was looking at aerodyne 38's and it seemed that every boat had a problem.

[trenace]

YOu might be right...as I said, I'm not a Naval Arch. But having said that, the J/111 has a disp of 9500lbs and a ballast of 3450lbs for a ballast to disp ratio of .363. J/70 would need 580lbs ballast to achieve the same ballast to disp ratio. Has same upwind SA/Disp ratio as J/111. Its beamer then the J/111. I'd bet on a Bulb weight between 550 and 600 if I were a betting man. Which I'm not...

Taking J/111 figures and scaling down directly will result in overestimating the J/70's stiffness contributed from the ballast.

Going for same ballast to displacement ratio doesn't mean same result when SA/D is different and on top of this length is different too.

The link recently posted gave SA/D of 33 for the J/70 and the J Boats site gives 27 for the J/111.

It maybe is easiest to show by example why this does not scale. Let's say Boat 1 and Boat 2 have same DLR, same SA/D, and same ballast to displacement ratio. The bigger boat is 40 feet long, has 1200 sq feet of sail area, and has a 4000 lb bulb at a depth of 9 feet.

The smaller boat is 20 feet long, has 300 sq feet of sail area -- with the center of effort half as high as the bigger boat -- and has a 500 lb bulb at a depth of 4.5 feet.

Do the boats get equal or comparable stiffness from the bulb?

Nope. The smaller boat has 1/8th the heeling force from the sails (1/4 the area, at half the height) but has only 1/16th the righting moment from the bulb (1/8th the weight at half the depth.)

You will find the same situation if you plug in J/111 numbers for the J/70... one can't scale down this way and get an equal result. The lighter boat needs a relatively heavier bulb to have comparable contribution to stiffness from the bulb.

[trenace]

While I am not saying that this method will be truly valid either, if you want to do this kind of thing for a wild-ass guess, then looking at ballast/SA would be a better guide as this does scale. J/111 has 4.59 lb/ft2 which incidentally is a pretty typical and good value. J/70 to match that: 1295 lb.

I think we can say right now that it's not gonna have that. Relative to heeling force from the sails, it will not get as much stability from its bulb as the J/111. Not near, even.

Perhaps this will help show why performance in this size range is achieved mostly with crew weight times lever arm to get righting moment, and why it's peculiar that the J/70 is not giving a full 8 feet to perch on.

[akaGP]

This is a very shrewd marketing move. We can say what we like about what little we know about the boat, but the Johnstones know something about how to promote a boat.

I believe we can all agree on that...although the Viper crowd seems to be pretty able marketers in the internet world...

its all good if it gets people into these boats...

in the end, a little extra performance one way or the other isn't going to win the day, its all about class/fleet development, and managing relatively deep pocketed consumers...

so you work for j boats then,
I remember how you did your best to kill the ft10 development
continually crapping on about how they were cheap chinese shit and would fall apart
well 5+ years on you couldn't be wronger, still stiff strong fast and handing it to much pricier boats
and here you are singing the praises of a boat that doesn't exist yet and when it does will be little more than a step into the new century for a lot of J24 owners
you my friend are a turdstain

by the way you never did answer my question from a couple of years ago - What do you sail on?

now you've gone and hurt my feelings..

but your precious FT turned into quite a fleet Is George now in charge of recruiting new owners? Talk about a marketing disaster...could they have done anything more to shoot themselves in the foot?

Bill DAMAN and Brian Stevens, the owners of Flying Tiger Boats, ignored BIAM like a dog with diarrhea at the Annapolis Boat Show. BIAM never got over it; LOL.

Bob Perry, the designer of Flying Tiger boats, met the whiny bitch in person and did not think much of him.

And I wouldn't piss on that pathetic POS if he was on fire.

P.S. Comparing 33' boats; ~20 more FT10s were completed in the first year of production than all the J-33s ever built.

[crash]

YOu might be right...as I said, I'm not a Naval Arch. But having said that, the J/111 has a disp of 9500lbs and a ballast of 3450lbs for a ballast to disp ratio of .363. J/70 would need 580lbs ballast to achieve the same ballast to disp ratio. Has same upwind SA/Disp ratio as J/111. Its beamer then the J/111. I'd bet on a Bulb weight between 550 and 600 if I were a betting man. Which I'm not...

Taking J/111 figures and scaling down directly will result in overestimating the J/70's stiffness contributed from the ballast.

Going for same ballast to displacement ratio doesn't mean same result when SA/D is different and on top of this length is different too.

The link recently posted gave SA/D of 33 for the J/70 and the J Boats site gives 27 for the J/111.

It maybe is easiest to show by example why this does not scale. Let's say Boat 1 and Boat 2 have same DLR, same SA/D, and same ballast to displacement ratio. The bigger boat is 40 feet long, has 1200 sq feet of sail area, and has a 4000 lb bulb at a depth of 9 feet.

The smaller boat is 20 feet long, has 300 sq feet of sail area -- with the center of effort half as high as the bigger boat -- and has a 500 lb bulb at a depth of 4.5 feet.

Do the boats get equal or comparable stiffness from the bulb?

Nope. The smaller boat has 1/8th the heeling force from the sails (1/4 the area, at half the height) but has only 1/16th the righting moment from the bulb (1/8th the weight at half the depth.)

You will find the same situation if you plug in J/111 numbers for the J/70... one can't scale down this way and get an equal result. The lighter boat needs a relatively heavier bulb to have comparable contribution to stiffness from the bulb.

Trenace,

You are right both about scaling ( I should have remembered my physics better) and about sa/disp of J/70 being listed as 33 now. So my previous post is inaccurate/wrong. Thanks for pointing that out.

Having acknowledged that, the other difference that has to be taking into account that also doesn't scale equally is the effect of crew weight on displacement/righting moment. 8 165 lb crew on a J/111 only represent 14% of its displacement. 3 crew of the same weight on a J/70 represent 31% of its displacement. So crew weight contributes a significantly larger RM on a small boat then a large one. 3 crew sitting 3.7 ft out from centerline on a J/70 contribute 1831 ftlbs of righting moment. The max RM of the keel (assuming all 500lbs at the deepest part) is only 2385ftlbs heeled at 90. So crew weight RM at its max (boat not heeled at all) is 76% of ballast max righting moment (90 degree heel). On your 40 footer with a crew of 10 and a 13.3 ft beam contribute a max righting moment of 11137ftlbs vs its ballast max RM of 36000ftlbs or 31%.


I think....



So the smaller boat needs a higher SA/Disp than the bigger boat due to the larger impact of crew wt, and less ballast/disp for the same reason...Again, I think.

[trenace]

Without checking the particular values of the numbers, the gist of what you're saying I agree with completely. The J/70 is in a size and weight range where the crew should and ordinarily does have more effect on righting than the bulb can.

But still, for any given amount of weight, the more that is in the bulb the better (as a "duh" statement, admittedly.)

[BIAM]

Bill DAMAN and Brian Stevens, the owners of Flying Tiger Boats, ignored BIAM like a dog with diarrhea at the Annapolis Boat Show. BIAM never got over it; LOL.

Bob Perry, the designer of Flying Tiger boats, met the whiny bitch in person and did not think much of him.

And I wouldn't piss on that pathetic POS if he was on fire.

Hi George...

never been to nappy boat show, never met Mr. Perry (but would enjoy the opportunity).....and happy to hear you wouldn't piss on me...

[crash]

UGH Balsa Core. UGH UGH UGH.

Sorry I have bad memories from a boat with balsa core. I'm not looking forward to that again. How much extra would a foam core cost for a boat this size?

Fancy carbon boom but balsa core.

This is still my #1 interest but J Boats, if you are reading this, please reconsider the balsa core.

J - and most other builders that are still in business from the late 70/8s0 that built cored boats have learned to isolate the core anywhere there is going to be a thru-hull or thru-deck fitting. Not saying it will never get water into it, but iif my non-isolated core S2 9.1 lasted 25 years before it repairs were an absolute requirement, I'd bet you'd have long sold your J/70 before you ever saw any core issues. My humble opinion. YMMV...

oh great!

someone else will end up with the problem.

it may be true that foam cored boats have just as many problems as balsa core boats, but i don't see it...

i regularly see balsa cored boats with moderate to serious issues, that can be quite expensive to fix.

last year i was looking at aerodyne 38's and it seemed that every boat had a problem.

I don't known about the aerodynes and their build, but wouldn't they have the same issues with core if it was foam? Why does foam mean no water in the core in your mind? I'm just curious. Again, based on mid 80s boats like J/boats, or my S2, getting 24 years of service out of something without any maintenance (like rebedding fittings every 5 years or so) is no different then not replacing your roofing singles after 25 years, or never washing or waxing your car for 25 years and then being surprised the paint peeled off and the body rusted. Why do we feel sailboats should be essentially maintenance free when maintaining hull and deck?

[Cheesy]

It kind of looks like someone tried to copy an E7 10 years too late and did a bad job of it

http://www.elliott-m...eedforspeed.pdf

[akasideshow]

Without checking the particular values of the numbers, the gist of what you're saying I agree with completely. The J/70 is in a size and weight range where the crew should and ordinarily does have more effect on righting than the bulb can.

But still, for any given amount of weight, the more that is in the bulb the better (as a "duh" statement, admittedly.)

while you're on the physics guys don't forget that due to the direction of G, RM from a bulb only comes into effect after a boat is heeled, and has a diminishing effect as the boat gets flatter
crew weight is the reverse
Flat is fast = Crew weight wins

So who's up for a wager? SB3 vs J-70?

[crash]

Without checking the particular values of the numbers, the gist of what you're saying I agree with completely. The J/70 is in a size and weight range where the crew should and ordinarily does have more effect on righting than the bulb can.

But still, for any given amount of weight, the more that is in the bulb the better (as a "duh" statement, admittedly.)

while you're on the physics guys don't forget that due to the direction of G, RM from a bulb only comes into effect after a boat is heeled, and has a diminishing effect as the boat gets flatter
crew weight is the reverse
Flat is fast = Crew weight wins

So who's up for a wager? SB3 vs J-70?

True this. RM from bulb increases with heel, while RM from crew decreases with heel. Of course heeling moment from the sails decreases as heel increases as well....meter boats go upwind quite nicely, and do it at a noticable amount of heel. Complicating the discussion is wetted surface area. On many boats, esp beamier ones, flat is fast as that equals the least amount of wetted surface. Skinny boats don't increase wetted surface as much when they heel, so don't need to be as flat. But yes in general on modern boats, esp strut/bulb types, flat is fast.

[GybeSet®]

hmm hmm
back from the generic yacht lesson

how will this boat get enough RM to sail in 15 knts ? or SF, KW, CChristi

will they be able to ease 660-700lbs from the displ. of 1600 .... into the bulb

[akaGP]

Bill DAMAN and Brian Stevens, the owners of Flying Tiger Boats, ignored BIAM like a dog with diarrhea at the Annapolis Boat Show. BIAM never got over it; LOL.

Bob Perry, the designer of Flying Tiger boats, met the whiny bitch in person and did not think much of him.

And I wouldn't piss on that pathetic POS if he was on fire.

Hi George...

never been to nappy boat show, never met Mr. Perry (but would enjoy the opportunity).....and happy to hear you wouldn't piss on me...

What, no denial of the fact that you purposely did not address?

P.S. Comparing 33' boats; ~20 more FT10s were completed in the first year of production than all the J-33s ever built.

[lowcamaro]

watched a tv show on Rod Johnstone last night, at the end it claimed that the J70 was a whole new way of thinking about sailing and would take over the sailing world just like the J24 did!

[U20guy2]

watched a tv show on Rod Johnstone last night, at the end it claimed that the J70 was a whole new way of thinking about sailing and would take over the sailing world just like the J24 did!

Foiling 20footer the family can sail? LOL

[Ryley]

watched a tv show on Rod Johnstone last night, at the end it claimed that the J70 was a whole new way of thinking about sailing and would take over the sailing world just like the J24 did!

Yeah, and Dean Kamen's Segway revolutionized transportation, too!

[GybeSet®]

"whole new" world ?

is that why it has the 'safe design' of the early nineties M-24 ? ? ?

backstay etc etc

[Steam Flyer]

watched a tv show on Rod Johnstone last night, at the end it claimed that the J70 was a whole new way of thinking about sailing and would take over the sailing world just like the J24 did!

Foiling 20footer the family can sail? LOL

Revolutionary, yeah baby!

The main reason why the J24 got to be popular was that it was a nicer alternative to the increasingly heinous Quarter Tonners of the day, and all the production boats that imitated the hot racers. Follow up with a well organized one-design class.

Looks to me like the J70 is a generation behind sportboat development outside the US, or even inside counting the Melgii. It might be a nice enough boat but it's not dropping into a vacuum the way the J24 did.

The main improvement in a boat for recrational sailing would be to reduce the TIME it burns up in caretaking. Boats are a PITA and that's why so many people sort of taper off sailing after starting hot IMHO. Maybe there are as-yet-unknown features of the J70 to address this, but I'm betting not. The main advantage it seems to have is J-boat's marketing machine and the fact that your crew probably won't be giving themselves abdominal ruptures on the "hiking assist system" (formerly known as lifelines).

I'm looking forward to seeing it, but not holding my breath.


FB- Doug

[crash]

watched a tv show on Rod Johnstone last night, at the end it claimed that the J70 was a whole new way of thinking about sailing and would take over the sailing world just like the J24 did!

Foiling 20footer the family can sail? LOL

Revolutionary, yeah baby!

The main reason why the J24 got to be popular was that it was a nicer alternative to the increasingly heinous Quarter Tonners of the day, and all the production boats that imitated the hot racers. Follow up with a well organized one-design class.

Looks to me like the J70 is a generation behind sportboat development outside the US, or even inside counting the Melgii. It might be a nice enough boat but it's not dropping into a vacuum the way the J24 did.

The main improvement in a boat for recrational sailing would be to reduce the TIME it burns up in caretaking. Boats are a PITA and that's why so many people sort of taper off sailing after starting hot IMHO. Maybe there are as-yet-unknown features of the J70 to address this, but I'm betting not. The main advantage it seems to have is J-boat's marketing machine and the fact that your crew probably won't be giving themselves abdominal ruptures on the "hiking assist system" (formerly known as lifelines).

I'm looking forward to seeing it, but not holding my breath.


FB- Doug

Revolutionary minus all the marketing hyperbole equals careful evolution. Its more the combination of desirable features then anything revolutionary. Concur that it lags sportboat development, but as I've said before, I'm pretty sure J/boats is not trying to target that market with the J/70, so that's a kind of moot point.

[O25 dude]

One other point - Johnstone didn't say it was revolutionary, the idiot narrator did. He also said it has a fixed keel.

[PurpleOnion]

One other point - Johnstone didn't say it was revolutionary, the idiot narrator did. He also said it has a fixed keel.

Don't let the facts get in the way of the ravenous dogs that battle marketing hyperbole with conjecture and hearsay.

[GybeSet®]

chicken /egg

the initial absence of FACTS, that is conjecture and truth-stretching lies with the marketing 'hyperbole'

bye the bye

maybe you can explain this to me ?
" stability that feels like a much larger boat. Knifing through the water upwind with confidence and ease, the J/70 has that legendary "J" feel - light, controllable with a wide-groove to sail consistently fast "

given that the boat was yet to be built, can you get that from figures and renderings like Do ug Lo rd ?

-----------------------------

100 buyers ? ? ?

----------------------------

Don't let the facts get in the way of the 'marketing hyperbole' that battles ravenous dogs with conjecture and hearsay viral myths

[PurpleOnion]

chicken /egg

the initial absence of FACTS, that is conjecture and truth-stretching lies with the marketing 'hyperbole'

bye the bye

maybe you can explain this to me ?
" stability that feels like a much larger boat. Knifing through the water upwind with confidence and ease, the J/70 has that legendary "J" feel - light, controllable with a wide-groove to sail consistently fast "

given that the boat was yet to be built, can you get that from figures and renderings like Do ug Lo rd ?

-----------------------------

100 buyers ? ? ?

----------------------------

Don't let the facts get in the way of the 'marketing hyperbole' that battles ravenous dogs with conjecture and hearsay viral myths

If you'll be kind enough to read the post I was responding to, you'll realize that I was not referring to all the seemingly prescient claims made about the boat by its designer/marketer, but the fact that everybody presumed that Mr. Johnstone made the ridiculous statements about the boat being revolutionary. You can say what you want about J-boats, but I'm fairly certain that they know the difference between and lifting keel and a fixed keel.

Most people on SA are not the primary market for the J-70 (or any J-boat), just as the engineering-minded folks were not the target market for the iPod when it was released. The nerd set mostly found it overpriced, restricted in functionality, inflexible, and feature poor. Apple seems to have done fairly well not pleasing that group and J-boats will do fairly well not pleasing the hard core folks here.

That said, the value of this site remains the fact that folks like yourself cut through the marketing hyperbole and sycophantic reporting thrust on the world by other media outlets.

[trenace]

There's a tremendous tendency of media people to use what they're given... while it's conceivable that the TV people added the word "revolutionary" themselves to spice things up, it's much more typical that they would have grabbed it off of the materials they were given and what they were told.

And it's not as if that claim would have been out-of-character for J Boats.

[BIAM]

Bill DAMAN and Brian Stevens, the owners of Flying Tiger Boats, ignored BIAM like a dog with diarrhea at the Annapolis Boat Show. BIAM never got over it; LOL.

Bob Perry, the designer of Flying Tiger boats, met the whiny bitch in person and did not think much of him.

And I wouldn't piss on that pathetic POS if he was on fire.

Hi George...

never been to nappy boat show, never met Mr. Perry (but would enjoy the opportunity).....and happy to hear you wouldn't piss on me...

What, no denial of the fact that you purposely did not address?

P.S. Comparing 33' boats; ~20 more FT10s were completed in the first year of production than all the J-33s ever built.

george, i'm reading this stupidity you dish out, and just shaking my head wondering what it could possibly have to do with new J-70??

and then it hit me.....competitive sailing if full of assholes...seems to attract it like flies on shit..

in your case, you almost single-handedly destroyed the FT10 fleet...which I have taken much amusement in watching (and perhaps even had a hand in egging you on)

well, here is the connection to the J-70 thread...luckily J boats are strong enough marketers and class builders that they can somehow overcome the huge ego/assholes like you who are so fucking pig-headed that they could destroy a promising one design fleet....that is a significant advantage in the world of building fleets and selling boats...

[U20guy2]

Bill DAMAN and Brian Stevens, the owners of Flying Tiger Boats, ignored BIAM like a dog with diarrhea at the Annapolis Boat Show. BIAM never got over it; LOL.

Bob Perry, the designer of Flying Tiger boats, met the whiny bitch in person and did not think much of him.

And I wouldn't piss on that pathetic POS if he was on fire.

Hi George...

never been to nappy boat show, never met Mr. Perry (but would enjoy the opportunity).....and happy to hear you wouldn't piss on me...

What, no denial of the fact that you purposely did not address?

P.S. Comparing 33' boats; ~20 more FT10s were completed in the first year of production than all the J-33s ever built.

george, i'm reading this stupidity you dish out, and just shaking my head wondering what it could possibly have to do with new J-70??

and then it hit me.....competitive sailing if full of assholes...seems to attract it like flies on shit..

in your case, you almost single-handedly destroyed the FT10 fleet...which I have taken much amusement in watching (and perhaps even had a hand in egging you on)

well, here is the connection to the J-70 thread...luckily J boats are strong enough marketers and class builders that they can somehow overcome the huge ego/assholes like you who are so fucking pig-headed that they could destroy a promising one design fleet....that is a significant advantage in the world of building fleets and selling boats...

No doubt!
Only issue I have with new boats is the Bullshit hype that some folks spin in this case before boats even exist. LOL - If no one questioned the BS we would see claims and posts that are borderline insane - our new boat will actually Hover and fly in 8-10 knots and you could have it for $20K!

Jboats consist of mid range performance boats with a massive marketing machine pushing them. Thats all Jboats is - mid range performance for the widest possible audience with a massive marketing engine selling them. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing Jboats EVER makes will be a Viper given the level of performance and potential audience is too far to the left of what Jboats targets. Melgi boats are higher performance focused than Jboats always have been and are expected to be.

So till the final product is sitting at boat shows it makes zero sense to post that its the greatest thing ever to hit the water given Jboats smartly plays the middle road with just enough quality and peformance to be above the huge mass produced builders and the higher end performance rigs which play to a smaller audience attracted to higher performance and power etc. Thats it nothing special about Jboats other than being a well greased and smart marketing machine that is very careful about the boats they ultimately produce.

[trenace]

And I'm sure they don't forget their own experience.

When they've tried -- and apparently done a good job -- at going higher performance with the J/90 and J/125, what was their reward?

Sales that were a sharp stick in the eye, pretty much, compared to responses to their mainstream boats.

I don't see them again going well if any past the J/111 performance/comfort/ease-of-sailing level any time soon, as personal opinion. Why should they?

[U20guy2]

And I'm sure they don't forget their own experience.

When they've tried -- and apparently done a good job -- at going higher performance with the J/90 and J/125, what was their reward?

Sales that were a sharp stick in the eye, pretty much, compared to responses to their mainstream boats.

I don't see them again going well if any past the J/111 performance/comfort/ease-of-sailing level any time soon, as personal opinion. Why should they?

# of J/90's vs 105's? pretty sure there are FAR more 105's than J/90's and the J/90 is nicer to drive and sail than the 105. There are far more B36.5's sold than J/125's and you bet Jboats looks that and charges a very premium price to justify the limited production of a 125.

One thing is for sure a 20ft anything can NEVER be built at the level of a j/90 or 125 and a smart company like Jboats knows that given every boat and price tag is only done if a profit can be seen. Hence why some of the Jboats have price tags off the charts! Very small production numbers expected by Jboats and to make it worth their time and marketing expense you have a big price tag!

[crash]

And I'm sure they don't forget their own experience.

When they've tried -- and apparently done a good job -- at going higher performance with the J/90 and J/125, what was their reward?

Sales that were a sharp stick in the eye, pretty much, compared to responses to their mainstream boats.

I don't see them again going well if any past the J/111 performance/comfort/ease-of-sailing level any time soon, as personal opinion. Why should they?

# of J/90's vs 105's? pretty sure there are FAR more 105's than J/90's and the J/90 is nicer to drive and sail than the 105. There are far more B36.5's sold than J/125's and you bet Jboats looks that and charges a very premium price to justify the limited production of a 125.

One thing is for sure a 20ft anything can NEVER be built at the level of a j/90 or 125 and a smart company like Jboats knows that given every boat and price tag is only done if a profit can be seen. Hence why some of the Jboats have price tags off the charts! Very small production numbers expected by Jboats and to make it worth their time and marketing expense you have a big price tag!

U20Guy,
Nicer to drive and sail is a pretty subjective metric. I know what you are trying to say ( I think), but based on market and sales of high performance boats in the 105's size/price range and the 105, the market has favored the 105. In part thats because of skill level and commitment. Most of us are not good enough sailors, nor are we willing to (or can't afford to) invest the time and effort necessary to become so. So is a boat that gives us 85% of the performance, with a wider groove, that is more tolerant of mis-tuning, etc, etc ultimately more usable by us real amateurs? (OBTW, I'm not a 105 guy and never have been, don't even own a J right now).

J, in general, does a great job marketing their products. Isn't that what every company should be doing?

The FT-10 being a noteable exception, I don't find too many high performance boats that are significantly cheaper than their J/Boat competition. Melges boats are not inexpensive. Ultimates and Anterims were not cheap either. Jim Lee's Dart is not any cheaper than a J/80 is. Yea, if you compare a J/109 to a Bene 36.7 the J is more expensive...but that is as much a volume issue as a "branding" issue.
Crash

PS. I'm happy to be wrong here...

[Essex]

Give me a few more days and I should be finished with my 'Sailing World' on the water review of the J70.
Happy to post here first & get some constructive criticism before I send it in.
Sneak preview to get you all ready:
'Clean entry'
'Well thought out'
'Generous Sail-plan'

[akasideshow]

Give me a few more days and I should be finished with my 'Sailing World' on the water review of the J70.
Happy to post here first & get some constructive criticism before I send it in.
Sneak preview to get you all ready:
'Clean entry'
'Well thought out'
'Generous Sail-plan'

Is it faster than an SB3?
inquiring minds want to know

[Monster Mash]

Give me a few more days and I should be finished with my 'Sailing World' on the water review of the J70.
Happy to post here first & get some constructive criticism before I send it in.
Sneak preview to get you all ready:
'Clean entry'
'Well thought out'
'Generous Sail-plan'

Will this be an on the water test or a review of line drawings like Robert Perry does?