Jump to content


J-70, NEXT GREAT SPORTY?


  • Please log in to reply
628 replies to this topic

#301 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:24 PM


Give me a few more days and I should be finished with my 'Sailing World' on the water review of the J70.

Will this be an on the water test or a review of line drawings like Robert Perry does?


I am guessing, on the water. But we will see.

It surprises me that the magazine would be agreeable to a draft being put out on the Web prior to publication?

#302 schoonerman

schoonerman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,273 posts
  • Location:San Francisco
  • Interests:sailing, sex and success...not necessarily in order

Posted 03 February 2012 - 05:08 PM

The J70 legitimizes this whole market segment...the family Sportboat.

It will be a a very good thing for sailing. The U20, the Dart maybe event the Antrim 25 will reap the rewards of J's marekting efforts.

I think J will sell quite a few boats. I also think that many of those who buy J's will find it is too middle of the road for them. Their family doesn't sail as much with them as they'd hoped, etc....they'll either move up to a bigger boat or down to a more performance Sportboat that will give them and their friends (crew) the thrills and competition they we looking for with the purchase of the J.

#303 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:13 PM



Give me a few more days and I should be finished with my 'Sailing World' on the water review of the J70.

Will this be an on the water test or a review of line drawings like Robert Perry does?


I am guessing, on the water. But we will see.

It surprises me that the magazine would be agreeable to a draft being put out on the Web prior to publication?


No surprise to anyone who knows Essex.

#304 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:40 PM

HA! so true.

I just want to know what type of woman she is.. kiss and tell essex




Give me a few more days and I should be finished with my 'Sailing World' on the water review of the J70.

Will this be an on the water test or a review of line drawings like Robert Perry does?


I am guessing, on the water. But we will see.

It surprises me that the magazine would be agreeable to a draft being put out on the Web prior to publication?


No surprise to anyone who knows Essex.



#305 Essex

Essex

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,602 posts
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:46 AM

uh oh, have some big edits to make.
Got a bit mixed up after a few glasses of cab and accidentally wrote the copy for the 'why we selected J70 as 2012 overall BOTY'.
Need to put that beauty back on the shelf for another 9 months yet.

#306 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 February 2012 - 01:01 AM

Why is it we never have a really good contest. Melges 20, vx one and j70 all introduced the same year... Now that would have been interesting

#307 Speedskater

Speedskater

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 277 posts
  • Location:Lakewood, Ohio EWYC
  • Interests:J/24 USA 3936
    29er USA 193
    E-Scow I-14
    Fireball US 8462

Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:53 PM

Why is it we never have a really good contest. Melges 20, vx one and j70 all introduced the same year... Now that would have been interesting

There are never enough different boats in a single year. They should have a boat of the decade award.

#308 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 04 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

Or, at least piss off the advertisers by, after giving say the Boat of the Year 2011 award, adding that say BOTY's 2009, 2008, and 2006 all still kick its ass. :)

But that's not going to happen.

#309 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:14 AM

Why is it we never have a really good contest. Melges 20, vx one and j70 all introduced the same year... Now that would have been interesting



The following boats have all won the SW BOTY award:-
Viper 640
Open 5.70
Laser SB3
Melges 20
VX Multi Design

If you line up the articles side by side, you will see that Essex (or his ghost writer) is a lazy bastard, he changes a few words and re-orders the paragraphs but not much else.

#310 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:20 AM

Has a NON major sponsor ever win BOTY?

#311 junta

junta

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 347 posts

Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:17 AM


Why is it we never have a really good contest. Melges 20, vx one and j70 all introduced the same year... Now that would have been interesting



The following boats have all won the SW BOTY award:-
Viper 640
Open 5.70
Laser SB3
Melges 20
VX Multi Design

If you line up the articles side by side, you will see that Essex (or his ghost writer) is a lazy bastard, he changes a few words and re-orders the paragraphs but not much else.


You can add the U20 as well.

#312 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:20 PM



Why is it we never have a really good contest. Melges 20, vx one and j70 all introduced the same year... Now that would have been interesting



The following boats have all won the SW BOTY award:-
Viper 640
Open 5.70
Laser SB3
Melges 20
VX Multi Design

If you line up the articles side by side, you will see that Essex (or his ghost writer) is a lazy bastard, he changes a few words and re-orders the paragraphs but not much else.


You can add the U20 as well.


Didn't know that. Nice!

Being serious for a moment, this is a good thing right? The people at Sailing World like small sport boats.

#313 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:23 PM

Comparing between the different years, what about the "wallet test".

Which of these sportboats, all winners of BOTY, do the SW judges go out and buy with their own money?
Bit of a leading question, because I know the answer. :rolleyes:

#314 RockHead

RockHead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,851 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:26 PM

Dave Reed, editor of SW was in the shop last week. Something like that may be in the works. It would be a hoot, I hope it happens. If it does, we (Rondar) will be there with at least two weapons (3-person Viper 640 & 2-person K6), maybe 3rd -a single-hander... Posted Image

#315 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:34 PM

Has a NON major sponsor ever win BOTY?

What is the chance that Brian Bennett spends nearly as much money with the magazine as does say J Boats or Beneslow?

#316 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:18 PM

Are you kidding?

@ Mambo - i dont recall the VX "All design" winning... i thought it was the VX One-design?

The viper is a shadow of what it was when it won in 199?, maybe they should re-run against the 70 in 2013. That would be interesting

Jboat's leaking any more pictures? I'd think they would be building hulls by now.


Has a NON major sponsor ever win BOTY?

What is the chance that Brian Bennett spends nearly as much money with the magazine as does say J Boats or Beneslow?



#317 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:26 PM

maybe they should run the Viper against the VX in 2013

just to see how far ahead of the VX it really is

------------------------------

if the 70 is running three bods inside hiking restraints it won't be 'racing' the Viper

#318 jh26

jh26

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:58 PM

The viper is a shadow of what it was when it won in 199?, maybe they should re-run against the 70 in 2013. That would be interesting


The revised Viper really deserves another bite at the apple - put the all-new Rondar North American Viper up for 2013...

#319 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:03 PM


The viper is a shadow of what it was when it won in 199?, maybe they should re-run against the 70 in 2013. That would be interesting


The revised Viper really deserves another bite at the apple - put the all-new Rondar North American Viper up for 2013...


Naw that wouldn't be fair. They already had to delay the launch of the J70 for a year so it didn't go up vs the VX m##ti one design. Can you imagine them having to delay another year so they didn't go against the updated Viper. J boats would probably pull all their advertizing.

They have picked a nice quiet year in terms of new boat launches. As long as they are up against the updated sport boat version of the Nonsuch 36 and 5 other new J Boat models , fingers crossed, then I think this could be their year in the performance category. ;)

Just kidding J guys....humor?



All kidding aside. Whatever we think of the lines , and weight guestimates, this is going to be a big launch. This is the sport boat concept going mainstream. Its all very well for Rondar and Melges producing sport boats for the cognescenti . With J boats entering the fray, the market is saying sport boats are for the masses.

Its a sign of the times. This is a good thing. My bet is that with J Boats promoting the sport boat concept, you will see more Vipers sold, more Opens, more shaws, more VXs, more K6s and more M20s ..... and yes, a lot of J70s.

It is more than a coincidence that the sales of Vipers increased after the launch of the Melges 20. The best ever year for Viper sales was last year as more and more people look at the sport boat niche, partly prompted by the paths being carved by both the Viper and the Melges 20.

I sympathize with the argument that we have to be careful not to slice and dice the sportboat category into too many different classes. But I think overall, racing keel boats is reaching an inflection point with the most important shift in terms of class growth since the intro of grp.





.

#320 jh26

jh26

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:51 PM

But I think overall, racing keel boats is reaching an inflection point with the most important shift in terms of class growth since the intro of grp.


Did you really just say the J/70 is the most important boat since the invention of fiberglass???????

#321 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:56 PM


Why is it we never have a really good contest. Melges 20, vx one and j70 all introduced the same year... Now that would have been interesting



The following boats have all won the SW BOTY award:-
Viper 640
Open 5.70
Laser SB3
Melges 20
VX Multi Design

If you line up the articles side by side, you will see that Essex (or his ghost writer) is a lazy bastard, he changes a few words and re-orders the paragraphs but not much else.


Just to add U20 and U24 by the way And I think The Antrim 27 did also. Thats three for three for Jim

#322 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:58 PM

U20 was Boat of the year in 95 I recall and I think the Antrim 27 was boat of the year in 97 possibly and the U24 was I think 2002 or 2003.

#323 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:03 AM


But I think overall, racing keel boats is reaching an inflection point with the most important shift in terms of class growth since the intro of grp.


Did you really just say the J/70 is the most important boat since the invention of fiberglass???????



Oh crap. I think I'm going to take Ultra's advice and put on the anti-keyboard mittens and stay away from SA for a week.

#324 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:47 AM

Wow, mambo said vx "one design".... That musta hurt a little?






The viper is a shadow of what it was when it won in 199?, maybe they should re-run against the 70 in 2013. That would be interesting


The revised Viper really deserves another bite at the apple - put the all-new Rondar North American Viper up for 2013...


Naw that wouldn't be fair. They already had to delay the launch of the J70 for a year so it didn't go up vs the VX m##ti one design. Can you imagine them having to delay another year so they didn't go against the updated Viper. J boats would probably pull all their advertizing.

They have picked a nice quiet year in terms of new boat launches. As long as they are up against the updated sport boat version of the Nonsuch 36 and 5 other new J Boat models , fingers crossed, then I think this could be their year in the performance category. ;)

Just kidding J guys....humor?



All kidding aside. Whatever we think of the lines , and weight guestimates, this is going to be a big launch. This is the sport boat concept going mainstream. Its all very well for Rondar and Melges producing sport boats for the cognescenti . With J boats entering the fray, the market is saying sport boats are for the masses.

Its a sign of the times. This is a good thing. My bet is that with J Boats promoting the sport boat concept, you will see more Vipers sold, more Opens, more shaws, more VXs, more K6s and more M20s ..... and yes, a lot of J70s.

It is more than a coincidence that the sales of Vipers increased after the launch of the Melges 20. The best ever year for Viper sales was last year as more and more people look at the sport boat niche, partly prompted by the paths being carved by both the Viper and the Melges 20.

I sympathize with the argument that we have to be careful not to slice and dice the sportboat category into too many different classes. But I think overall, racing keel boats is reaching an inflection point with the most important shift in terms of class growth since the intro of grp.





.



#325 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:12 AM

Wow, mambo said vx "one design".... That musta hurt a little?



Cricket cricket. I'm wearing the mittens.

#326 dolphinmaster

dolphinmaster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 992 posts
  • Location:Wilmington, NC

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:54 PM


Wow, mambo said vx "one design".... That musta hurt a little?



Cricket cricket. I'm wearing the mittens.


Be careful then of the psychic bluetooth capability of your keyboard. Did the salesman not tell you?

#327 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 549 posts

Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:35 AM

Are you kidding?

@ Mambo - i dont recall the VX "All design" winning... i thought it was the VX One-design?

The viper is a shadow of what it was when it won in 199?, maybe they should re-run against the 70 in 2013. That would be interesting

Jboat's leaking any more pictures? I'd think they would be building hulls by now.



Has a NON major sponsor ever win BOTY?

What is the chance that Brian Bennett spends nearly as much money with the magazine as does say J Boats or Beneslow?

Pictures of hull at jboats.com.

#328 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:41 PM

And on the front page, whatever the hell that is...

#329 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:45 PM

... and, if all goes according to plan, we'll meet our objective of selling out production for 2012-- 100+ boats in the USA and Europe.



Isn't it ALWAYS true that if all goes according to plan, one's objective is met?



#330 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:14 PM

... and, if all goes according to plan, we'll meet our objective of selling out production for 2012-- 100+ boats in the USA and Europe.



Isn't it ALWAYS true that if all goes according to plan, one's objective is met?


The bugger is whether or not one's plan is realistic or overly optimistic. Hope is a plan too...just not a good one. I think in this case they got a better than aveage shot at meeting their objective...but reserve total judgement until I've sailed one...

#331 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 549 posts

Posted 12 February 2012 - 03:12 AM

Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?

#332 Jerryd

Jerryd

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 627 posts

Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:02 PM

Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?


We will have one here in NC racing in April. Then it goes down to CRW.

#333 Soley

Soley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,842 posts
  • Location:This side of the Atlantic
  • Interests:Take a guess. It ain't too hard.....

Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:54 PM

... and, if all goes according to plan, we'll meet our objective of selling out production for 2012-- 100+ boats in the USA and Europe.



Isn't it ALWAYS true that if all goes according to plan, one's objective is met?



Does that include the ones that the NYYC is using?

#334 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

This april? Like - in two months?

Charleston Race Week - PHRF fleet? Long motor outside on a 20' anything.


Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?


We will have one here in NC racing in April. Then it goes down to CRW.



#335 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:06 PM

Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?



Which PNW dealer has ordered 4 ?

#336 J24Soup

J24Soup

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,187 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR

Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:20 PM


Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?



Which PNW dealer has ordered 4 ?


Can't imagine it would be anyone other than Sail Northwest

#337 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:29 PM



Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?



Which PNW dealer has ordered 4 ?


Can't imagine it would be anyone other than Sail Northwest



Makes sense, was hoping it was Sail America down here in the bay area.

#338 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 549 posts

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:33 AM



Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?



Which PNW dealer has ordered 4 ?


Can't imagine it would be anyone other than Sail Northwest

bingo

#339 Viper55

Viper55

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Location:Newport NC

Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:14 PM

This april? Like - in two months?

Charleston Race Week - PHRF fleet? Long motor outside on a 20' anything.



Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?


We will have one here in NC racing in April. Then it goes down to CRW.


He's not racing in the Regatta. Don told me it would be on display at the party and available for Demo's Friday and Saturday. It will be living out on Lake Norman. Hoping a couple end up on the Coast of NC...

#340 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:23 PM

if they are the 1800 pound model will the extra be all in the bulb

or is it 'yacht-like' in the laminate and excess structure

#341 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:03 PM

Melges did the same at KWRW 20?? - they had a 20 sitting in the middle of the tent area. You couldn't help but lean on it at some point. 300 boats at charleston this year - j70 in the middle of the party, good move.




This april? Like - in two months?

Charleston Race Week - PHRF fleet? Long motor outside on a 20' anything.



Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?


We will have one here in NC racing in April. Then it goes down to CRW.


He's not racing in the Regatta. Don told me it would be on display at the party and available for Demo's Friday and Saturday. It will be living out on Lake Norman. Hoping a couple end up on the Coast of NC...



#342 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:14 PM

Melges and RS did this at last year's CRW.

Melges had an M20 sitting at corner of hotel right at top of entry to dock so you had to stroke it as you went past.

RS had a 100 in center of party so you had to stroke it on the way to the bar.



Worked out well for Melges. For RS? - not so well unless they are selling the 100 like hot cakes somewhere else that I haven't seen. Its all in the follow up.





Melges did the same at KWRW 20?? - they had a 20 sitting in the middle of the tent area. You couldn't help but lean on it at some point. 300 boats at charleston this year - j70 in the middle of the party, good move.





This april? Like - in two months?

Charleston Race Week - PHRF fleet? Long motor outside on a 20' anything.



Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?


We will have one here in NC racing in April. Then it goes down to CRW.


He's not racing in the Regatta. Don told me it would be on display at the party and available for Demo's Friday and Saturday. It will be living out on Lake Norman. Hoping a couple end up on the Coast of NC...



#343 lowcamaro

lowcamaro

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:in a place colder than a witchs tit

Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:52 PM

Rumor has it, 4 70's coming to the pnw in June, 2 sold, 2 being considered. How many will be at race week?

lets get them SMS rated for the Super 20 Sportie class at WIRW, that was a lot of fun last year and now we are implementing the Aussie SMS rating system, it should make for a close race!

#344 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:10 PM

As SMS seems like it has matched up pretty closely with actual performance (no formula will be perfect of course) it will be interesting to see how the J70 rates.

#345 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:35 PM

it will rate fairly well on SMS ( as it has no extremes in a few (3) specific areas )

you must look at the E-7 ratings for a likeness.

if it is the rumoured 1800^ model it will rate even better

#346 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:39 PM

Am I alone in this when I say 1800lbs for a 20footer sounds WAY heavy?
Christ my 1995 U20 with all required class gear on it was 1300lbs on Craigs scale at Columbia yachts when we were messing around weighing boats.

#347 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:43 PM

well the subject of the discussion is 23'

it's a J/boat, look to the 22 for a better comparison maybe ?

#348 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:48 PM

Ok fine 23ft

Is it ocean rated?

Any guess what this boat is?
Still sounds heavy for being a day sailor. 1800 just sounds really heavy to me
LOA 24'5"
LWL 21'2"
Beam 8'6"
Draft (Board up/down) 2'11"/5'6"
Displacement 2,040 lbs.
Ballast 750 lbs.
Sail Area (main and jib) 390 sq. ft.

#349 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:51 PM

same weight as a j22

more predictions if that is true;

it will PHRF out around 130
it will sail to a PHRF of 150

j boats will still sell a ton of them

used j80's with a current value of 40Kish will see that drop to something in the 20's immediatly

#350 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:58 PM

same weight as a j22

more predictions if that is true;

it will PHRF out around 130
it will sail to a PHRF of 150

j boats will still sell a ton of them

used j80's with a current value of 40Kish will see that drop to something in the 20's immediatly


True the J80 will get wiped out by this new ride unless the price is off the charts. Though I suspect the 80 might be built on a different scale regarding ocean rating vs bay and coastal rating on the new 70. So the 80 may still have a special place with a certain group of sailors.

#351 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:00 PM

Am I alone in this when I say 1800lbs for a 20footer sounds WAY heavy?
Christ my 1995 U20 with all required class gear on it was 1300lbs on Craigs scale at Columbia yachts when we were messing around weighing boats.



Trouble with facts again.
Try closer to 23 feet.

#352 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:06 PM


Am I alone in this when I say 1800lbs for a 20footer sounds WAY heavy?
Christ my 1995 U20 with all required class gear on it was 1300lbs on Craigs scale at Columbia yachts when we were messing around weighing boats.



Trouble with facts again.
Try closer to 23 feet.


Monster you ever measure a boat? A 23footer can be measured in many ways. Shoot my U20 can be measured to 22ft depending on how you measure it. Who the fuck cares - the material and build process between a 20ft boat and a 23ft boat and a 24ft boat doesn't change much other than a 20footer built to inland water ways standards will be lighter than a 24footer built to ocean specs.

#353 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:15 PM

Makes no sense why a new boat the same size as an old mid 80's boat weighs the same when huge strides have been made in the build process and materials for boats today. So yes unless they are really adding lots more lead to the keel it seems heavy especially if built based on inland waterway standards.

#354 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:21 PM

Where do we know for a fact what the weight is?

#355 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:31 PM

Where do we know for a fact what the weight is?


Not only is the question do we know the true designed weight yet - but what was the build standard inland water ways - or ocean? Something that no one can answer yet based on how little is known.

#356 jokerx9

jokerx9

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 97 posts
  • Location:NY

Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:02 PM

Who cares if its 1800lbs? What does that mean? Do we know the sail plan? Look at the melges 24. 17 something lbs and the thing is fast as hell.

#357 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:41 PM

Joker one thing that a J-boat is not is a Melges. LOL

#358 ekolnskungen

ekolnskungen

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 41 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Interests:Water...

Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:44 PM

Who cares if its 1800lbs? What does that mean? Do we know the sail plan? Look at the melges 24. 17 something lbs and the thing is fast as hell.


17 something plus all the pigs on the rail.

#359 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:57 AM

Am I alone in this when I say 1800lbs for a 20footer sounds WAY heavy?
Christ my 1995 U20 with all required class gear on it was 1300lbs on Craigs scale at Columbia yachts when we were messing around weighing boats.



My 21 ft Viper 640 with all required class gear and Dan Myers on it was 1300 lbs.





Note to Ultra: Please send bigger mittens.

#360 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 549 posts

Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:56 AM


same weight as a j22

more predictions if that is true;

it will PHRF out around 130
it will sail to a PHRF of 150

j boats will still sell a ton of them

used j80's with a current value of 40Kish will see that drop to something in the 20's immediatly


True the J80 will get wiped out by this new ride unless the price is off the charts. Though I suspect the 80 might be built on a different scale regarding ocean rating vs bay and coastal rating on the new 70. So the 80 may still have a special place with a certain group of sailors.

Doubt if the 80 will be wiped out, especially in Europe, but cannibalized yes. The owner of the 80 I sail on is on the verge of committing to the 70. Maybe next week. If I still had my 80, I'd do it. They seem to be addressing many of the issues I had with the 80 (heavy mast, pain to ramp launch, won't fit in my barn). The 22 is one of my favorite j-boats and the 70 seems like an updated 22 that incorporates many of the features that made the 80 popular, and it fixes the things that made the 80 a pita.

#361 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:15 PM

Who cares if its 1800lbs? What does that mean? Do we know the sail plan? Look at the melges 24. 17 something lbs and the thing is fast as hell.



the melges would not be fast if it had less crew weight NOT on the rail

ie contained inside the lifelines, it would however be on its ear

who cares ? obviously not the BS 100 buyers worrying about the BS displacement

the displacement of 1600 will be a straight out LIE designed to dupe the market that they could produce a technical boat, as opposed to the usual lowtech profit maker (includes sb3)

this alleged 200^ will need to be in the bulb else it will sail like shit in any windy venue



#362 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 17 February 2012 - 08:36 PM

You've obviously weighed one and therefore know its a lie right? 'Cause otherwise you spewing as much as any supporter is. Fact is until anyone gets a production boat in their hands a weighs it, we just don't know do we?

#363 jokerx9

jokerx9

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 97 posts
  • Location:NY

Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:21 PM

HAHA I agree about the BS 100 buyers. Does anyone on here find it strange that people are ready to buy the 70 tomorrow, sight unseen? The F---ing thing isnt even in the water yet and people are blowing there loads. Got to love it! People calm down!

#364 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:37 PM

HAHA I agree about the BS 100 buyers. Does anyone on here find it strange that people are ready to buy the 70 tomorrow, sight unseen? The F---ing thing isnt even in the water yet and people are blowing there loads. Got to love it! People calm down!



As far back as I can recall J-Freaks are known for this. Has always baffled me given I've never seen J-boats to be anything special. Perhaps thats due to me growing up and sailing boats that came out of Santa Cruz which even today are competitive and well respected boats. For sure the J-Freak thing is a East Coast thing.

#365 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:08 PM


HAHA I agree about the BS 100 buyers. Does anyone on here find it strange that people are ready to buy the 70 tomorrow, sight unseen? The F---ing thing isnt even in the water yet and people are blowing there loads. Got to love it! People calm down!



As far back as I can recall J-Freaks are known for this. Has always baffled me given I've never seen J-boats to be anything special. Perhaps thats due to me growing up and sailing boats that came out of Santa Cruz which even today are competitive and well respected boats. For sure the J-Freak thing is a East Coast thing.



Just to stir the pot, there seems to be a whole lot more J/Boats on the west coast then there are west coast boats on the East Coast....

Not sayin' there aren't a bunch of great west coast boats...there are. But teh J/Boat thing is not just the east coast....

#366 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:34 PM

Have to agree with that. Had an 80 for about three years, it was a total PITA to deal with. Had a 22 for 10 - great boat before i discovered sailing sporties.

I'm lowering my used J80 value predition to 25K (assuming the 70's not a total dog).

It'd be good to see all the J80 owners down here who are currently stuck on a pond because their such an ordeal to travel with get into 70's and travel. Hmmm, maybe even a J70 fleet at MGRW 2013? The more the merrier.



same weight as a j22

more predictions if that is true;

it will PHRF out around 130
it will sail to a PHRF of 150

j boats will still sell a ton of them

used j80's with a current value of 40Kish will see that drop to something in the 20's immediatly


True the J80 will get wiped out by this new ride unless the price is off the charts. Though I suspect the 80 might be built on a different scale regarding ocean rating vs bay and coastal rating on the new 70. So the 80 may still have a special place with a certain group of sailors.

Doubt if the 80 will be wiped out, especially in Europe, but cannibalized yes. The owner of the 80 I sail on is on the verge of committing to the 70. Maybe next week. If I still had my 80, I'd do it. They seem to be addressing many of the issues I had with the 80 (heavy mast, pain to ramp launch, won't fit in my barn). The 22 is one of my favorite j-boats and the 70 seems like an updated 22 that incorporates many of the features that made the 80 popular, and it fixes the things that made the 80 a pita.



#367 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:39 PM

20+ Express 27's racing last week on the Bay - Not a single j/80 or 27 even active at all on the Bay. Only active J boats in SF are J/24's and 105's. Nothing compared to the Moores - E27's U20's Antrim 27's etc etc etc.

Socal is much the same way. So no there are not that many J's on the West coast.

#368 PurpleOnion

PurpleOnion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:58 PM


HAHA I agree about the BS 100 buyers. Does anyone on here find it strange that people are ready to buy the 70 tomorrow, sight unseen? The F---ing thing isnt even in the water yet and people are blowing there loads. Got to love it! People calm down!



As far back as I can recall J-Freaks are known for this. Has always baffled me given I've never seen J-boats to be anything special. Perhaps thats due to me growing up and sailing boats that came out of Santa Cruz which even today are competitive and well respected boats. For sure the J-Freak thing is a East Coast thing.


People are sheep. Look at all the Apple-freaks who for years bought inferior overpriced products because they were slicker. To appeal to the masses you need to be just slightly better/smarter/more innovative. If you're too far ahead and don't have massive marketing $ (Antrim 27 and others mentioned above) you have problems. If technical merits sold, the world would be a different place.

#369 PurpleOnion

PurpleOnion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:01 AM

Just to stir the pot, there seems to be a whole lot more J/Boats on the west coast then there are west coast boats on the East Coast....

Not sayin' there aren't a bunch of great west coast boats...there are. But teh J/Boat thing is not just the east coast....


To stir that pot further, do you think that is due to technical merits of the boats, marketing dollars, business acumen, or something else?

#370 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:25 PM

For a rough look at where this fits performance-wise compared to the Viper, we do have enough to look at basics.

Let's assume (I'm guessing it's not true, but it's best case) that the J/Boats figure of 1600 lb is ready-to-sail as opposed to stripped. Let's give the J/70 and Viper crew weights of 250 kg (550 lb) each. In this case, 2150 lb total for J/70, 1272 for Viper.

Righting moment when flat? If we put crew weight on maximum beam (simplification), 2030 ft lb for J/70, 2256 for Viper. This gives it only about 53% the power to weight, when flat. Since this is not really that accurate, let's just say about half.

When heeled? Well J Boats has not blessed us with a ballast figure so there is no way to give particular numbers, but there's no way that the above is going to turn around at any modest angle of heel such as say 20 degrees.

A lot less powerful boat (no surprise whatsoever, of course) despite very similar SA/D. Most likely the average buyer will see the comparable SA/D and think it is equally "sporty" and "speedster" though.

The situation is even less favorable for the J/70 if that displacement figure is stripper.

Yeah, I was bored. Apologies for anyone else being bored as a result :)

Anyway, looks like it fits in right where I think most of us guessed for the "family friendly," "inclusive" goal of the boat. Tamed down, no fangs, nothing like, no surprise.

#371 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:31 PM

For a rough look at where this fits performance-wise compared to the Viper, we do have enough to look at basics.

Let's assume (I'm guessing it's not true, but it's best case) that the J/Boats figure of 1600 lb is ready-to-sail as opposed to stripped. Let's give the J/70 and Viper crew weights of 250 kg (550 lb) each. In this case, 2150 lb total for J/70, 1272 for Viper.

Righting moment when flat? If we put crew weight on maximum beam (simplification), 2030 ft lb for J/70, 2256 for Viper. This gives it only about 53% the power to weight, when flat. Since this is not really that accurate, let's just say about half.

When heeled? Well J Boats has not blessed us with a ballast figure so there is no way to give particular numbers, but there's no way that the above is going to turn around at any modest angle of heel such as say 20 degrees.

A lot less powerful boat (no surprise whatsoever, of course) despite very similar SA/D. Most likely the average buyer will see the comparable SA/D and think it is equally "sporty" and "speedster" though.

The situation is even less favorable for the J/70 if that displacement figure is stripper.

Yeah, I was bored. Apologies for anyone else being bored as a result :)

Anyway, looks like it fits in right where I think most of us guessed for the "family friendly," "inclusive" goal of the boat. Tamed down, no fangs, nothing like, no surprise.



Don't disagree with your overall premise, but can you be more detailed about how you determined "power to weight" differences? Is it rm to sail area? sa to total displacement (boat and crew) or some other combination?
Thanks...

#372 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:21 PM

Righting moment to weight... on the simplified estimate of putting the crew weight onto maximum beam and neglecting possible differences in distance between CE of the sails and the CLR.

So for Viper, 550 lb times 4.1 feet (half beam) gives 2256 ft lb. Dividing by all-up weight of 1272 gives 1.77 ft lb of righting moment per lb of weight when sailed flat.

For the J/70, the same 550 lb gets an arm of only 3.69 feet, for 2030 ft lb. Dividing by all-up weight of 2150 lb (this may be too low) gives 0.94 ft lb of righting moment per lb when flat, and not greatly more when heel is moderate.


Where breeze is light enough that righting moment isn't limiting then sail area is a good measure of power. But once there's enough breeze for righting moment to be limiting, then that's all the power that can actually be put to use.

If the J/70 has an actually-relatively-heavy bulb then when at quite a bit of heel, but let's say not a probably-slow angle like 45 degrees (cuts sail efficiency way down), there will be substantially more righting moment than this, I really can't estimate, but still I can't see it getting close to the Viper for righting moment to weight.

#373 craigiri

craigiri

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,340 posts
  • Location:Home of US Sailing
  • Interests:Sailing, Innovation, Web Development, Writing, etc.

Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:35 PM

People are sheep. Look at all the Apple-freaks who for years bought inferior overpriced products because they were slicker. To appeal to the masses you need to be just slightly better/smarter/more innovative. If you're too far ahead and don't have massive marketing $ (Antrim 27 and others mentioned above) you have problems. If technical merits sold, the world would be a different place.



That's pretty funny. I had IBM PCs from day one - but knew a superior product when I saw one, so switched to Mac.
Meantime, I was able to succeed in various businesses - including on the net - due to having a more advanced machine that didn't need full time maintaining. Not a single one of my friends with PCs (except the accountants) really succeeded in the creative arts with their machines.

Oh, yeah, I bought some of their stock too!

And now...I am so regretting it......NOT.

Actually, your idea of being slightly better is wrong. In fact, we often say that a product has to be vastly better in order to make a mark. Being a little better is not good enough.

By definition your apple example is wrong - since, if you claim most people are sheep, that would mean that the PC buyers from way back were the MASS OF PEOPLE = Sheep.

You are correct, though, about technical merits. But this is often due to the risk averse nature of modern corporations. They would rather sell something that they know...which is inferior...than to take chances. I've found that out the hard way.

I'm ready for a new boat and would buy a (Farrier) F-22 if they were available. Why? Resale as much as anything. I'd consider this J-70 if I decided to go mono - because of cost and resale. That's not being a sheep - that's being plain practical. I'll probably take a trial on the J70 since I live nearby.
(not a racer - so could care less about whether it's 1500 or 1800 lbs).

The odds are that a new purchaser of a J70 will get a decent percentage of their money out of it in 5-7 years...that is, if the new boats are 55 to 60K at that time, a well maintained older one might fetch 35+.

I guess I'm too practical - and not TOO cheap (just cheap enough, but not as far as to want an old boat)...

I think the bigger question is why some people spend their time denigrating other brands, boats and people? Is that a deep seated insecurity - or are you getting paid to it? Got to be one or the other....

#374 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:42 PM


People are sheep. Look at all the Apple-freaks who for years bought inferior overpriced products because they were slicker. To appeal to the masses you need to be just slightly better/smarter/more innovative. If you're too far ahead and don't have massive marketing $ (Antrim 27 and others mentioned above) you have problems. If technical merits sold, the world would be a different place.



That's pretty funny. I had IBM PCs from day one - but knew a superior product when I saw one, so switched to Mac.
Meantime, I was able to succeed in various businesses - including on the net - due to having a more advanced machine that didn't need full time maintaining. Not a single one of my friends with PCs (except the accountants) really succeeded in the creative arts with their machines.

Oh, yeah, I bought some of their stock too!

And now...I am so regretting it......NOT.

Actually, your idea of being slightly better is wrong. In fact, we often say that a product has to be vastly better in order to make a mark. Being a little better is not good enough.

By definition your apple example is wrong - since, if you claim most people are sheep, that would mean that the PC buyers from way back were the MASS OF PEOPLE = Sheep.

You are correct, though, about technical merits. But this is often due to the risk averse nature of modern corporations. They would rather sell something that they know...which is inferior...than to take chances. I've found that out the hard way.

I'm ready for a new boat and would buy a (Farrier) F-22 if they were available. Why? Resale as much as anything. I'd consider this J-70 if I decided to go mono - because of cost and resale. That's not being a sheep - that's being plain practical. I'll probably take a trial on the J70 since I live nearby.
(not a racer - so could care less about whether it's 1500 or 1800 lbs).

The odds are that a new purchaser of a J70 will get a decent percentage of their money out of it in 5-7 years...that is, if the new boats are 55 to 60K at that time, a well maintained older one might fetch 35+.

I guess I'm too practical - and not TOO cheap (just cheap enough, but not as far as to want an old boat)...

I think the bigger question is why some people spend their time denigrating other brands, boats and people? Is that a deep seated insecurity - or are you getting paid to it? Got to be one or the other....



I'm into loosing little to zero money on my boats with long term ownership. So far the best boats I've seen for this are my U20 which actually sold for more than what I paid for it and covered some very large upgrades after 10yrs of owning it. J/70 will never EVER compete with that. The Express 27's have always been a near zero cost boat between purchase price and sales price for as long as I can recall. Same goes for the Moore 24 - sails - upgrades - fixes - new bottoms are all use costs. The difference between purchase price and used boat value is simply a loss, gain or break even. Something that NO JBOAT HAS EVER HAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just Saying

#375 Animal Kingdom

Animal Kingdom

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 608 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:38 PM



People are sheep. Look at all the Apple-freaks who for years bought inferior overpriced products because they were slicker. To appeal to the masses you need to be just slightly better/smarter/more innovative. If you're too far ahead and don't have massive marketing $ (Antrim 27 and others mentioned above) you have problems. If technical merits sold, the world would be a different place.



That's pretty funny. I had IBM PCs from day one - but knew a superior product when I saw one, so switched to Mac.
Meantime, I was able to succeed in various businesses - including on the net - due to having a more advanced machine that didn't need full time maintaining. Not a single one of my friends with PCs (except the accountants) really succeeded in the creative arts with their machines.

Oh, yeah, I bought some of their stock too!

And now...I am so regretting it......NOT.

Actually, your idea of being slightly better is wrong. In fact, we often say that a product has to be vastly better in order to make a mark. Being a little better is not good enough.

By definition your apple example is wrong - since, if you claim most people are sheep, that would mean that the PC buyers from way back were the MASS OF PEOPLE = Sheep.

You are correct, though, about technical merits. But this is often due to the risk averse nature of modern corporations. They would rather sell something that they know...which is inferior...than to take chances. I've found that out the hard way.

I'm ready for a new boat and would buy a (Farrier) F-22 if they were available. Why? Resale as much as anything. I'd consider this J-70 if I decided to go mono - because of cost and resale. That's not being a sheep - that's being plain practical. I'll probably take a trial on the J70 since I live nearby.
(not a racer - so could care less about whether it's 1500 or 1800 lbs).

The odds are that a new purchaser of a J70 will get a decent percentage of their money out of it in 5-7 years...that is, if the new boats are 55 to 60K at that time, a well maintained older one might fetch 35+.

I guess I'm too practical - and not TOO cheap (just cheap enough, but not as far as to want an old boat)...

I think the bigger question is why some people spend their time denigrating other brands, boats and people? Is that a deep seated insecurity - or are you getting paid to it? Got to be one or the other....



I'm into loosing little to zero money on my boats with long term ownership. So far the best boats I've seen for this are my U20 which actually sold for more than what I paid for it and covered some very large upgrades after 10yrs of owning it. J/70 will never EVER compete with that. The Express 27's have always been a near zero cost boat between purchase price and sales price for as long as I can recall. Same goes for the Moore 24 - sails - upgrades - fixes - new bottoms are all use costs. The difference between purchase price and used boat value is simply a loss, gain or break even. Something that NO JBOAT HAS EVER HAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just Saying


I sold my J30 last summer after 4 years of ownership and got more than I paid for it. No real upgrades to speak of in that time.

#376 BarePoles

BarePoles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,259 posts
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA
  • Interests:sailing, surfing, architecture, Texas Forever

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:01 PM

20+ Express 27's racing last week on the Bay - Not a single j/80 or 27 even active at all on the Bay. Only active J boats in SF are J/24's and 105's. Nothing compared to the Moores - E27's U20's Antrim 27's etc etc etc.

Socal is much the same way. So no there are not that many J's on the West coast.


San Diego has enough J's for the whole west coast combined.

#377 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:15 PM

True dat - sadly most of the J's are far far more fun in the winds you see in Nor Cal HA HA

#378 Snapper

Snapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,595 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 25 February 2012 - 06:51 AM

I am so looking forward to squaring up with a J-70...

#379 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 549 posts

Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:22 AM

@wirw

#380 Snapper

Snapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,595 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:28 AM

@wirw


we will be racing OD. I doubt a J70 will even show up. Unlikely they will either be built or show up. If one does, we will happily pace with it.

#381 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:24 PM

you will flog it

i'm fairly confinnced from the J bullshit and lack of information that this boat won't be 1600 and 'plus' 660 in the bulb

#382 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:54 PM

I am so looking forward to squaring up with a J-70...


Why? you should easily sail away from it. No one would (should) try to say otherwise. Hell, even I might (or maybe not) be able to out pace a J/70 on a Viper. Doesn't mean the J/70 is a bad boat. Just not as fast as the Viper. Different targets.

#383 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:12 PM

on its ear upwind = PITFA

show otherwise

#384 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:41 PM

on its ear upwind = PITFA

show otherwise



As even you've said, No one has seen the specs for the ballast/bulb weight, and no hull has been built yet, so you really have no more an idea then I do. We are both speaking out our asses. Secondly there are, I dunno, about a half dozen ways to keep if off its ear upwind..all windspeed dependent. Including that old keel boat trick of reefing. But as most J/Boats I know like a good breeze, I'm willing to bet this one will do ok on that account to. If I'm wrong and it turns out to be a tender bitch, I'll be the first to say I'm wrong.

But its hard to convince someone who has his mind made up. The difference between you and I, is that I'm willing to concede you might be right. You appear to be convinced you're right, and nothing short of sailing the boat (and maybe not even that) appears will get you to open your mind.

#385 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:41 PM

my conviction is that we sail 'mixed' sportsboats (NON-od) in aus, it's a development class and we've been 'developing' for decades and can pick it easy
i've been in for a long while and sailed a plethora of similar designs,
even the same ( & similar) hulls with
  • different weight keels
  • different deck beam (winged),
  • different # of crew hiking
I can tell based on the above, any of us here can, what order they will finish a breezy race in before the start gun
As easy as knowing say, a i14 with the skippers trapeze wire broken will get dusted
you CANNOT ignore RM in a sportsboat, or the RM vs SA equation, crucial

I think J are undecided about the bulb weight, on water testing will tell, then they'll be able to publish ballast weights, the only logical option imo

e.g. the m20 changed the initial rig down after being on the water, the sailmakers are still working on de-powering

I think the j/70 should go to 1800, 1900 or whatever it takes to stiffen it up

thing is they can't use the extra for a lazy or cheaper build, it must go in the bulb

re RM, the m24 owners ( or a decent %age of 'em) would not even consider backing off on the hell hiking because they knew it would hurt performance, without a big or extra crew the boat would skew up in big gusts to the point of backing the jib if not helmed well, going uphill would be a chore & not pleasant

In saying that, if a 'light bulbed(say 550lbs) J/70, replica, type or clone, turned up here in 'sportsboat' in the last two decades it would be OK because under our rules we would simply line the gunnels with bodies & hike it,
just as an E7 does (550lb bulb)

google up some pics of a Longzte, or T7 to see where the 4 (four) crew must be positioned

but as you are not doing this, 3 crew trapped inboard by rules and grandaddy hiking restraints, boat narrower than all the 8'2" baseline, you are in a design corner that doesn't give you a lot of options other than a heavier bulb, or a light weather only boat




#386 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 549 posts

Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:46 PM

Dealer here said legs out hiking, just like all the other Js.

#387 knuckles

knuckles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 963 posts

Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:44 AM

Dealer here said legs out hiking, just like all the other Js.


Hmm...from the JBoats website:

For sitting and hiking comfort, mid-height padded backrests/lifelines run cockpit length, making J/70 one of the most comfortable boats to helm without having to rely on hiking straps to keep you in the boat.


I never considered a legs out J/70, but why not?

#388 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:49 AM

my conviction is that we sail 'mixed' sportsboats (NON-od) in aus, it's a development class and we've been 'developing' for decades and can pick it easy
i've been in for a long while and sailed a plethora of similar designs,
even the same ( & similar) hulls with

  • different weight keels
  • different deck beam (winged),
  • different # of crew hiking
I can tell based on the above, any of us here can, what order they will finish a breezy race in before the start gun
As easy as knowing say, a i14 with the skippers trapeze wire broken will get dusted
you CANNOT ignore RM in a sportsboat, or the RM vs SA equation, crucial

I think J are undecided about the bulb weight, on water testing will tell, then they'll be able to publish ballast weights, the only logical option imo

e.g. the m20 changed the initial rig down after being on the water, the sailmakers are still working on de-powering

I think the j/70 should go to 1800, 1900 or whatever it takes to stiffen it up

thing is they can't use the extra for a lazy or cheaper build, it must go in the bulb

re RM, the m24 owners ( or a decent %age of 'em) would not even consider backing off on the hell hiking because they knew it would hurt performance, without a big or extra crew the boat would skew up in big gusts to the point of backing the jib if not helmed well, going uphill would be a chore & not pleasant

In saying that, if a 'light bulbed(say 550lbs) J/70, replica, type or clone, turned up here in 'sportsboat' in the last two decades it would be OK because under our rules we would simply line the gunnels with bodies & hike it,
just as an E7 does (550lb bulb)

google up some pics of a Longzte, or T7 to see where the 4 (four) crew must be positioned

but as you are not doing this, 3 crew trapped inboard by rules and grandaddy hiking restraints, boat narrower than all the 8'2" baseline, you are in a design corner that doesn't give you a lot of options other than a heavier bulb, or a light weather only boat




Gybe,

that was particularly well written and thoughtful....

Crash

#389 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,221 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:19 PM

however I was under the impression that it was a 'legs in' from earlier posts

legs out will help

small # of crew still seems on the light side, but who knows if thats a restriction, maybe not

The boat look good in the renders

#390 Animal Kingdom

Animal Kingdom

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 608 posts

Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:43 AM


my conviction is that we sail 'mixed' sportsboats (NON-od) in aus, it's a development class and we've been 'developing' for decades and can pick it easy
i've been in for a long while and sailed a plethora of similar designs,
even the same ( & similar) hulls with

  • different weight keels
  • different deck beam (winged),
  • different # of crew hiking
I can tell based on the above, any of us here can, what order they will finish a breezy race in before the start gun
As easy as knowing say, a i14 with the skippers trapeze wire broken will get dusted
you CANNOT ignore RM in a sportsboat, or the RM vs SA equation, crucial

I think J are undecided about the bulb weight, on water testing will tell, then they'll be able to publish ballast weights, the only logical option imo

e.g. the m20 changed the initial rig down after being on the water, the sailmakers are still working on de-powering

I think the j/70 should go to 1800, 1900 or whatever it takes to stiffen it up

thing is they can't use the extra for a lazy or cheaper build, it must go in the bulb

re RM, the m24 owners ( or a decent %age of 'em) would not even consider backing off on the hell hiking because they knew it would hurt performance, without a big or extra crew the boat would skew up in big gusts to the point of backing the jib if not helmed well, going uphill would be a chore & not pleasant

In saying that, if a 'light bulbed(say 550lbs) J/70, replica, type or clone, turned up here in 'sportsboat' in the last two decades it would be OK because under our rules we would simply line the gunnels with bodies & hike it,
just as an E7 does (550lb bulb)

google up some pics of a Longzte, or T7 to see where the 4 (four) crew must be positioned

but as you are not doing this, 3 crew trapped inboard by rules and grandaddy hiking restraints, boat narrower than all the 8'2" baseline, you are in a design corner that doesn't give you a lot of options other than a heavier bulb, or a light weather only boat




Gybe,

that was particularly well written and thoughtful....

Crash


Agree...I actually learned something. Who woulda thunk it?

#391 knuckles

knuckles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 963 posts

Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:13 AM

Quantum J70 sails

http://www.quantumsa....aspx?class=224

#392 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 549 posts

Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:15 AM

Good find. Fleet price includes choice of North or Quantum, but I sure like what Klingler did for the j80. Wonder who the first NA champ will be?

Quantum J70 sails

http://www.quantumsails.com/classes/class_detail.aspx?class=224



#393 jsailannapolis

jsailannapolis

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 46 posts

Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:04 PM

Good find. Fleet price includes choice of North or Quantum, but I sure like what Klingler did for the j80. Wonder who the first NA champ will be?


Quantum J70 sails

http://www.quantumsails.com/classes/class_detail.aspx?class=224


While we are at it...
http://www.onedesign.com/tabid/31344/Default.aspx

#394 knuckles

knuckles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 963 posts

Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:39 PM


Good find. Fleet price includes choice of North or Quantum, but I sure like what Klingler did for the j80. Wonder who the first NA champ will be?


Quantum J70 sails

http://www.quantumsails.com/classes/class_detail.aspx?class=224


While we are at it...
http://www.onedesign.com/tabid/31344/Default.aspx


Cool! Class propaganda machine is ready to go 100%!

I expected an aramid jib either paneled or molded.

#395 jsailannapolis

jsailannapolis

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 46 posts

Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:58 PM



Good find. Fleet price includes choice of North or Quantum, but I sure like what Klingler did for the j80. Wonder who the first NA champ will be?


Quantum J70 sails

http://www.quantumsails.com/classes/class_detail.aspx?class=224


While we are at it...
http://www.onedesign.com/tabid/31344/Default.aspx


Cool! Class propaganda machine is ready to go 100%!

I expected an aramid jib either paneled or molded.


I think we will see that in the future. Nothing to base this off of but my guess is the dacron sail plan was implemented to help keep initial fleet cost down and once a strong 1D fleet has formed we will see string sails in a year or two.

#396 EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 413 posts
  • Interests:Myth busting.
    Bordeaux.
    Block Island Race Week

Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:44 PM

Both sailmakers prices within range of $5,600 - $5,750.
I am hoping the class will have a limit on number of sails per year to keep the running costs under control.

I hear what you say Gybeset and we will not be parting with our deposit until we have been for a couple of thoro test sails. But there is a market over here for a boat "3 crew trapped inboard by rules and hiking restraints". I grew up racing dinghies. My husband grew up racing heavy keel boats and even likes to steer from the leeward rail looking up the slot. The ideal compromise for us is a sport boat. He has agreed to sit on the windward rail but I have agreed that the Viper, K6, VX is a step too far.

The Melges 20 doesn't work for us. The SB3 didn't get any traction in the US. So we are left hoping that the J70 lives up to some of its hype. I am as skeptical as anyone about pre-launch hype but if the boat sails well then it is supported by a well established and well funded builder that has a track record in promoting big classes in the US.

If it sails like shit, then I will be the first to say so. But I'm not expecting level of a Viper thrill. I am expecting something more thrilling than the lead bellies that are currently on offer for one design sailing around here.

#397 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:52 PM

Both sailmakers prices within range of $5,600 - $5,750.
I am hoping the class will have a limit on number of sails per year to keep the running costs under control.

I hear what you say Gybeset and we will not be parting with our deposit until we have been for a couple of thoro test sails. But there is a market over here for a boat "3 crew trapped inboard by rules and hiking restraints". I grew up racing dinghies. My husband grew up racing heavy keel boats and even likes to steer from the leeward rail looking up the slot. The ideal compromise for us is a sport boat. He has agreed to sit on the windward rail but I have agreed that the Viper, K6, VX is a step too far.

The Melges 20 doesn't work for us. The SB3 didn't get any traction in the US. So we are left hoping that the J70 lives up to some of its hype. I am as skeptical as anyone about pre-launch hype but if the boat sails well then it is supported by a well established and well funded builder that has a track record in promoting big classes in the US.

If it sails like shit, then I will be the first to say so. But I'm not expecting level of a Viper thrill. I am expecting something more thrilling than the lead bellies that are currently on offer for one design sailing around here.


You sail the U20 yet sounds like exactly what your looking for and isn't vapor boat has been around and proven for a long time. LOL Just saying if your going to go buy a boat why not sail all the options? And if you were interested in One Design the J/70 would be the farthest boat from your interest given there ARE NONE ie ZERO fleets and will not have fleets for a long time.

So I sense a conflict in your wants list. A fleet of OD boats but apparently the local od's are lead bellies which would indicate to me that your local OD people probably will not have the cash or interest in spending $45+k on a Day sailing Jboat. Just pointing out the obvious.

#398 EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 413 posts
  • Interests:Myth busting.
    Bordeaux.
    Block Island Race Week

Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:38 PM


Both sailmakers prices within range of $5,600 - $5,750.
I am hoping the class will have a limit on number of sails per year to keep the running costs under control.

I hear what you say Gybeset and we will not be parting with our deposit until we have been for a couple of thoro test sails. But there is a market over here for a boat "3 crew trapped inboard by rules and hiking restraints". I grew up racing dinghies. My husband grew up racing heavy keel boats and even likes to steer from the leeward rail looking up the slot. The ideal compromise for us is a sport boat. He has agreed to sit on the windward rail but I have agreed that the Viper, K6, VX is a step too far.

The Melges 20 doesn't work for us. The SB3 didn't get any traction in the US. So we are left hoping that the J70 lives up to some of its hype. I am as skeptical as anyone about pre-launch hype but if the boat sails well then it is supported by a well established and well funded builder that has a track record in promoting big classes in the US.

If it sails like shit, then I will be the first to say so. But I'm not expecting level of a Viper thrill. I am expecting something more thrilling than the lead bellies that are currently on offer for one design sailing around here.


You sail the U20 yet sounds like exactly what your looking for and isn't vapor boat has been around and proven for a long time. LOL Just saying if your going to go buy a boat why not sail all the options? And if you were interested in One Design the J/70 would be the farthest boat from your interest given there ARE NONE ie ZERO fleets and will not have fleets for a long time.

So I sense a conflict in your wants list. A fleet of OD boats but apparently the local od's are lead bellies which would indicate to me that your local OD people probably will not have the cash or interest in spending $45+k on a Day sailing Jboat. Just pointing out the obvious.


There is money around here. Lead bellies are not cheap. Try pricing out an Etchell or even a Sonar.

There are no U 20s to speak of around her. I have sailed on an U20. It was nice but by today's standard it wasn't great so I would be surprised if the U 20 got a new growth spurt and came to the North East. If we lived in a region where there was a U20 fleet we might sail it. It seems like a nice crowd who own them. But both the J70 and the U20 would be starting from ground zero here. My money would be on the J70 (but I'm making no bets until I've sailed it).

The Vipers have proved that Sport boats can start growth in modern one design fleets. There are no other keel boat classes in the North East which come close to matching their momentum. The question is, can we piggy back off their success and spread the love to a non-hiking class?

#399 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,345 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:45 PM



Both sailmakers prices within range of $5,600 - $5,750.
I am hoping the class will have a limit on number of sails per year to keep the running costs under control.

I hear what you say Gybeset and we will not be parting with our deposit until we have been for a couple of thoro test sails. But there is a market over here for a boat "3 crew trapped inboard by rules and hiking restraints". I grew up racing dinghies. My husband grew up racing heavy keel boats and even likes to steer from the leeward rail looking up the slot. The ideal compromise for us is a sport boat. He has agreed to sit on the windward rail but I have agreed that the Viper, K6, VX is a step too far.

The Melges 20 doesn't work for us. The SB3 didn't get any traction in the US. So we are left hoping that the J70 lives up to some of its hype. I am as skeptical as anyone about pre-launch hype but if the boat sails well then it is supported by a well established and well funded builder that has a track record in promoting big classes in the US.

If it sails like shit, then I will be the first to say so. But I'm not expecting level of a Viper thrill. I am expecting something more thrilling than the lead bellies that are currently on offer for one design sailing around here.


You sail the U20 yet sounds like exactly what your looking for and isn't vapor boat has been around and proven for a long time. LOL Just saying if your going to go buy a boat why not sail all the options? And if you were interested in One Design the J/70 would be the farthest boat from your interest given there ARE NONE ie ZERO fleets and will not have fleets for a long time.

So I sense a conflict in your wants list. A fleet of OD boats but apparently the local od's are lead bellies which would indicate to me that your local OD people probably will not have the cash or interest in spending $45+k on a Day sailing Jboat. Just pointing out the obvious.


There is money around here. Lead bellies are not cheap. Try pricing out an Etchell or even a Sonar.

There are no U 20s to speak of around her. I have sailed on an U20. It was nice but by today's standard it wasn't great so I would be surprised if the U 20 got a new growth spurt and came to the North East. If we lived in a region where there was a U20 fleet we might sail it. It seems like a nice crowd who own them. But both the J70 and the U20 would be starting from ground zero here. My money would be on the J70 (but I'm making no bets until I've sailed it).

The Vipers have proved that Sport boats can start growth in modern one design fleets. There are no other keel boat classes in the North East which come close to matching their momentum. The question is, can we piggy back off their success and spread the love to a non-hiking class?


The Viper growth is any indication then cost vs performance is clearly a big value for your sailors in your area. Which case an expensive J that leaves something to be desired regarding performance is probably not going to be all that popular. The viper offers a very hard value to pass up regarding cost and performance and the new J won't be able to touch it with a 20ft carbon pole on price or performance thats just the reality you face with the J.

#400 EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 413 posts
  • Interests:Myth busting.
    Bordeaux.
    Block Island Race Week

Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:11 PM




Both sailmakers prices within range of $5,600 - $5,750.
I am hoping the class will have a limit on number of sails per year to keep the running costs under control.

I hear what you say Gybeset and we will not be parting with our deposit until we have been for a couple of thoro test sails. But there is a market over here for a boat "3 crew trapped inboard by rules and hiking restraints". I grew up racing dinghies. My husband grew up racing heavy keel boats and even likes to steer from the leeward rail looking up the slot. The ideal compromise for us is a sport boat. He has agreed to sit on the windward rail but I have agreed that the Viper, K6, VX is a step too far.

The Melges 20 doesn't work for us. The SB3 didn't get any traction in the US. So we are left hoping that the J70 lives up to some of its hype. I am as skeptical as anyone about pre-launch hype but if the boat sails well then it is supported by a well established and well funded builder that has a track record in promoting big classes in the US.

If it sails like shit, then I will be the first to say so. But I'm not expecting level of a Viper thrill. I am expecting something more thrilling than the lead bellies that are currently on offer for one design sailing around here.


You sail the U20 yet sounds like exactly what your looking for and isn't vapor boat has been around and proven for a long time. LOL Just saying if your going to go buy a boat why not sail all the options? And if you were interested in One Design the J/70 would be the farthest boat from your interest given there ARE NONE ie ZERO fleets and will not have fleets for a long time.

So I sense a conflict in your wants list. A fleet of OD boats but apparently the local od's are lead bellies which would indicate to me that your local OD people probably will not have the cash or interest in spending $45+k on a Day sailing Jboat. Just pointing out the obvious.


There is money around here. Lead bellies are not cheap. Try pricing out an Etchell or even a Sonar.

There are no U 20s to speak of around her. I have sailed on an U20. It was nice but by today's standard it wasn't great so I would be surprised if the U 20 got a new growth spurt and came to the North East. If we lived in a region where there was a U20 fleet we might sail it. It seems like a nice crowd who own them. But both the J70 and the U20 would be starting from ground zero here. My money would be on the J70 (but I'm making no bets until I've sailed it).

The Vipers have proved that Sport boats can start growth in modern one design fleets. There are no other keel boat classes in the North East which come close to matching their momentum. The question is, can we piggy back off their success and spread the love to a non-hiking class?


The Viper growth is any indication then cost vs performance is clearly a big value for your sailors in your area. Which case an expensive J that leaves something to be desired regarding performance is probably not going to be all that popular. The viper offers a very hard value to pass up regarding cost and performance and the new J won't be able to touch it with a 20ft carbon pole on price or performance thats just the reality you face with the J.


U20,

Let's wait to see how the J70 performs before we get too advanced in any discussion.

I don't disagree with you.But do not overestimate the "value" component of the Viper's success. It's more than that. Trust me, I've taken a dowsing from the full firehose of kool aid from the local Viper enthusiasts. That class has unbelievable energy. When local Swan 42 owners are buying Vipers, they are not shopping on price alone.

Value matters, but I think underneath all this, there are people who want to sail more modern boats the whole way up the price spectrum.

In many ways the U20 was a ground breaking boat. It represented making sport boats accesible to families not just hulking great male sailors and I support that. I hope the J70 can do the same.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users