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#1 lar015

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:25 PM

I'm tryting to decide on a new mainsail for my FT10. I have been sailing with the original OEM Neil Pryde main and now have decided that I can finally afford to replace it. The choices seem to be Ullman, North, Quantum, and Neil Pryde. Most of the folks I know are using North, but the cost is a little more for the their aramid 3DL. I believe the pricing comes to about $4,100 with tax. For this kind of money is the price differential between dacron and aramid worth it? The cheapest pricing seems to be Neil Pryde although I am unfamiliar with other brands. Comments aprreciated.

#2 akaGP

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:13 PM

I'm tryting to decide on a new mainsail for my FT10. I have been sailing with the original OEM Neil Pryde main and now have decided that I can finally afford to replace it. The choices seem to be Ullman, North, Quantum, and Neil Pryde. Most of the folks I know are using North, but the cost is a little more for the their aramid 3DL. I believe the pricing comes to about $4,100 with tax. For this kind of money is the price differential between dacron and aramid worth it? The cheapest pricing seems to be Neil Pryde although I am unfamiliar with other brands. Comments aprreciated.


Larry,

First realize that regardless of brand name (except North) most of the sails are made by the China Sail Factory Ltd.

For biggest bang per buck, its a no brainer; go with Neil Pryde. Their newest aramid string sail design is sweet. I have purchased a number of sails for FT10 and other boats from Neil Pryde's Bob Pattison and have never been disappointed. Bob is in Startford, CT, and can be reached at 203-375-2626

The other sail makers that you listed are all capable of providing an excellent product but at substantially higher price. If price is of no concern I would chose Ullman. I purchased another FT10 with an extensive quiver of top of the line Ullman sails and was impressed. However their FT10 sails' longevity has not been significantly greater. Contact Keith Magnussen at the Newport Beach loft; he is a good guy, so is Erik Shampain.

In my opinion if the sail shape, material, and construction are close, I'd rather buy a less expensive product in order replace my major regatta sails more often. Mind you, this opinion is from someone who manages his sail inventory wisely. There is nothing like a well cut brand new sail to maximize boat speed and VMG.

PM me if you have any questions.

#3 kelly

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:13 PM


I'm tryting to decide on a new mainsail for my FT10. I have been sailing with the original OEM Neil Pryde main and now have decided that I can finally afford to replace it. The choices seem to be Ullman, North, Quantum, and Neil Pryde. Most of the folks I know are using North, but the cost is a little more for the their aramid 3DL. I believe the pricing comes to about $4,100 with tax. For this kind of money is the price differential between dacron and aramid worth it? The cheapest pricing seems to be Neil Pryde although I am unfamiliar with other brands. Comments aprreciated.


Larry,

First realize that regardless of brand name (except North) most of the sails are made by the China Sail Factory Ltd.

For biggest bang per buck, its a no brainer; go with Neil Pryde. Their newest aramid string sail design is sweet. I have purchased a number of sails for FT10 and other boats from Neil Pryde's Bob Pattison and have never been disappointed. Bob is in Startford, CT, and can be reached at 203-375-2626

The other sail makers that you listed are all capable of providing an excellent product but at substantially higher price. If price is of no concern I would chose Ullman. I purchased another FT10 with an extensive quiver of top of the line Ullman sails and was impressed. However their FT10 sails' longevity has not been significantly greater. Contact Keith Magnussen at the Newport Beach loft; he is a good guy, so is Erik Shampain.

In my opinion if the sail shape, material, and construction are close, I'd rather buy a less expensive product in order replace my major regatta sails more often. Mind you, this opinion is from someone who manages his sail inventory wisely. There is nothing like a well cut brand new sail to maximize boat speed and VMG.

PM me if you have any questions.


Could not agree more, there is very little between any of these suggested offerings on the track, the best crew will win irrespective of which sails you have on the boat, finding a good person for Strategy will get you better performance in a FT10 One Design Race. Bob Patterson will let you down, his designs are sound , quality first class, we just purchased a replacment AP Kite and were definetly not dissapointed.

#4 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 02:55 AM

Kelly:
If you like Bob's sails why do you say, "Bob Patterson will let you down". Did you leave out a word, like "not"?

#5 Kmag

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 02:59 PM

There is a noticeable difference between Dacron and Aramid sails on the Tiger with the Aramid def performing better. We (Ullman) are still highly active and have continued to make progress within the fleet.


If you want to chat in detail about the sails or the boat shoot me an email. kmagnussen@ullmansails.com.

#6 kelly

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 09:56 PM

Kelly:
If you like Bob's sails why do you say, "Bob Patterson will let you down". Did you leave out a word, like "not"?


What's a knot between friends.... Yep.. Bob Patterson will NOT let you down! great price and performance.
Bye the way a Tiger won a Sydney Super 30 passage race this weekend ( first across the line ) with its 4 year old NP Delivery Sails , still looked good ( not great ) but plenty of shape ( read sag ) for the light conditions.
Fast Fun and Very Affordable.

#7 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 02:19 PM

Kelly:
Thanks for that news. Congrats to the crew!

#8 TigerinCT

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 12:15 AM

There is a noticeable difference between Dacron and Aramid sails on the Tiger with the Aramid def performing better. We (Ullman) are still highly active and have continued to make progress within the fleet.


If you want to chat in detail about the sails or the boat shoot me an email. kmagnussen@ullmansails.com.


Piling on with Kmag... the difference between aramid and Dacron can't be understated. If you have survived 3 years with Dacron spend the money on aramid from anyone, you will be sailing a whole new boat.

#9 River Sailor

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 02:08 PM

Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!

#10 Kmag

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:41 PM

Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!




Really sorry to hear that you are not happy with your main. A few things I can hopefully help you with:

Yes we do have a floating tack that should be connected to the mast with velcro strap, same as your clew. This allows you to adjust the tack (pull forward in chop to simulate more Luff curve and back in flatter water). This is standard and works very well on all the boats here on the West Coast.

Floating tack in the picture you will notice the proper way to attach the tack, pulling it tight to the mast will change sail shape dramatically. (Notice there is no cunningham hooked up as we were doing some spinnaker testing only that day and were not concerned with upwind)

Draft


Upwind Tiger's

I agree with the Cleveland loft about the inconsistency of the build on the Tiger and we have made adjustments with the bolt rope to sort this out.

The sail shape problem sounds like it is a rig tuning factor as the sails have the same cut and we are having great success here on the west coast with the same main (1st at Pacific Coast Championships recently). Please log on to our newley created One Design Page for updated tuning guide FT-10 one Design


Hope this helps. If any more questions or problems should arise please feel free to contact me as we want everyone with Ullman Sails to be happy and have the performance they desire and i know is achievable with our sails.




#11 SailRacer

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:32 PM

Why did the owner above get that information before delivery or with the sails? No rep came out to test the bolt rope issue prior to having it built?

Strange but possibly true.
Sail Safe!

#12 Bulbhunter

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:44 PM

Sail durability all related to materials used vs cost is your answer. Sail "A" may cost more than Sail "B" but you might see a season or two more of good performance with "A" over "B" simply due to the type of material and the design. The cost of the more advanced materials these days is generally not enough to off set the advantage they offer in extended durability and good performance over less advanced cheaper materials.

Many older classes are starting to face the class membership rumblings about moving to these more durable longer lasting materials over say the old Dacron One design rules etc. The groups that sail year around and more often that not in heavier air generally lead the interest in moving to longer lasting materials and designs given they might replace a set of sails every year vs a one design fellow racer who races in much lower wind locations and even possibly fewer months out of the year. This disparity in use and experience regarding sail life and cost creates a unique challenge to the OD classes.

A class with a large portion of its member ship sailing in lower wind range locations and possibly even fewer months out of the year is going to struggle with the concept or the need that their fellow OD sailors are dealing with in higher wind locations that may sail year around. How a OD class handles that challenge shows greatly just how rounded and experienced the OD class members are when it comes to understanding the value of newer materials or designs etc.

#13 Kmag

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:51 PM

Why did the owner above get that information before delivery or with the sails? No rep came out to test the bolt rope issue prior to having it built?

Strange but possibly true.
Sail Safe!


Assume you meant why Didn't he. There seems to be some inconsistencies with the track and on some boats when the mast bends the throat on the track seems to widen. Can not comment on the details of this particular case as this is the first time I am learning of it. Since this is a "one design" boat all the tracks should be the same and when the sails were first developed we did all the measuring. One would assume that the same bolt rope would work on all boats. Unfortunate but they did give the option of changing the bolt rope accordingly. I am sure it was as surprising to the Cleveland loft as it was to us when this first occurred.

#14 SailRacer

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:53 PM

Never Assume.

#15 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 06:11 PM

This is my experience - I have no connection to Ullman other than they have some of my money.
We have an Ullman main and we think it is great. The bolt rope on the main is a slightly smaller diameter than the OEM NP bolt rope. We have never had any problem with the bolt rope coming out of the track and the summers get quite windy in San Francisco. However, the bolt rope easily comes out of the pre-feeder which requires the person at the mast to take extra care feeding the bolt rope into the track as the main is raised - which is not much of a sacrafice, especially since I an not the one doing it.
Our main did not come with any spreader patches which in our experience are necessary - those plastic spreader tips are sharp (even when taped)and causes point loading on the sail when it is windy.
It is hard for me to imagine that your Dacron main could be better than an Ullman main. Our OEM main shape looked good until the wind came up and then really streched out of shape.
If you are not getting a good response from your local Ullman rep you should take up KMag on his offer. You may also want to hit up some of the other Ullman/Tiger owners for their input.
I think you can get great performance from the Ullman sail but to achieve that you need to follow the Ullman tuning guide - and better yet get input from Ullman how to get the best shape from the sail for the conditions you are sailing in.
Good luck.

#16 akaGP

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 06:57 PM


Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!




Really sorry to hear that you are not happy with your main. A few things I can hopefully help you with:

Yes we do have a floating tack that should be connected to the mast with velcro strap, same as your clew. This allows you to adjust the tack (pull forward in chop to simulate more Luff curve and back in flatter water). This is standard and works very well on all the boats here on the West Coast.

Floating tack in the picture you will notice the proper way to attach the tack, pulling it tight to the mast will change sail shape dramatically. (Notice there is no cunningham hooked up as we were doing some spinnaker testing only that day and were not concerned with upwind)

Draft


Upwind Tiger's

I agree with the Cleveland loft about the inconsistency of the build on the Tiger and we have made adjustments with the bolt rope to sort this out.

The sail shape problem sounds like it is a rig tuning factor as the sails have the same cut and we are having great success here on the west coast with the same main (1st at Pacific Coast Championships recently). Please log on to our newley created One Design Page for updated tuning guide FT-10 one Design


Hope this helps. If any more questions or problems should arise please feel free to contact me as we want everyone with Ullman Sails to be happy and have the performance they desire and i know is achievable with our sails.




Keith,

Presuming that the luff shape of the main sail is consistent from head board to tack (without cut back for the goose neck attachment) and that >97% of the main sail luff is permanenrly attached to the mast track, how does moving <3% of the luff an inch or two fore and aft "dramatically" change luff curve anywhere but at the very bottom?

I can see the advantage of having a floating tack that can be adjusted vertically; horizontally, not so much.


P.S. Not everyone is enamored with Facebook; those of us who are not, can't see all those wonderful photos that you posted.

#17 Kmag

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:36 PM



Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!




Really sorry to hear that you are not happy with your main. A few things I can hopefully help you with:

Yes we do have a floating tack that should be connected to the mast with velcro strap, same as your clew. This allows you to adjust the tack (pull forward in chop to simulate more Luff curve and back in flatter water). This is standard and works very well on all the boats here on the West Coast.

Floating tack in the picture you will notice the proper way to attach the tack, pulling it tight to the mast will change sail shape dramatically. (Notice there is no cunningham hooked up as we were doing some spinnaker testing only that day and were not concerned with upwind)

Draft


Upwind Tiger's

I agree with the Cleveland loft about the inconsistency of the build on the Tiger and we have made adjustments with the bolt rope to sort this out.

The sail shape problem sounds like it is a rig tuning factor as the sails have the same cut and we are having great success here on the west coast with the same main (1st at Pacific Coast Championships recently). Please log on to our newley created One Design Page for updated tuning guide FT-10 one Design


Hope this helps. If any more questions or problems should arise please feel free to contact me as we want everyone with Ullman Sails to be happy and have the performance they desire and i know is achievable with our sails.




Keith,

Presuming that the luff shape of the main sail is consistent from head board to tack (without cut back for the goose neck attachment) and that >97% of the main sail luff is permanenrly attached to the mast track, how does moving <3% of the luff an inch or two fore and aft "dramatically" change luff curve anywhere but at the very bottom?

I can see the advantage of having a floating tack that can be adjusted vertically; horizontally, not so much.


P.S. Not everyone is enamored with Facebook; those of us who are not, can't see all those wonderful photos that you posted.




I understand your point. In my experience from sailing these boats I can share with you that we see noticeable change when moving the tack offset via the velcro strap. For example, when we ease the velcro strap an inch we can see the max draft move slightly aft and the sail itself get slightly flatter, mainly in the bottom third. The trained eye can see it transfer nearly 2/3 up the sail. When we move it forward 1 inch, it transfers max draft noticeably forward and seems to transfer much higher into the sail, all the way to the top batten in most cases. As you point out we are not changing the luff curve so much as "tricking" the sail into thinking there is more luff curve.

Will try to re-post the pictures....



#18 Kmag

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:42 PM

Tigers Upwind



Tack


Draft

#19 River Sailor

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:57 PM

Never has been any problem w/ NP main bolt rope, old & new sails.

Never got the strap to hold the sail to the mast, used sail tie as makeshift.

The tuning guide recommends 0.3' (4"), we are typically less than that at base.

After all the time, effort and expense to be ready for and travel to the nationals, it was a real blow to get a DNS out of the gates!
Tough to be the ginney pig at a major event.

And worse no communication.

#20 Kmag

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:17 PM

once again I am sorry to hear about your troubles. I would make sure you are close to 4" of pre-bend at the dock. If you are less than that then the sail will be much fuller and when you get to the recommended settings for more wind it will be wrong. I know it is never fun to have a bad experience at any regatta let alone a major event and I hope that you find some answers you are looking for.

We stand behind our product and our customers have been very successful with our sails (obviously not including this incident) and can assure anyone in the market that communication and support from myself and Newport Beach loft is a high priority as is the performance of our product.

#21 akaGP

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:38 PM




Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!




Really sorry to hear that you are not happy with your main. A few things I can hopefully help you with:

Yes we do have a floating tack that should be connected to the mast with velcro strap, same as your clew. This allows you to adjust the tack (pull forward in chop to simulate more Luff curve and back in flatter water). This is standard and works very well on all the boats here on the West Coast.

Floating tack in the picture you will notice the proper way to attach the tack, pulling it tight to the mast will change sail shape dramatically. (Notice there is no cunningham hooked up as we were doing some spinnaker testing only that day and were not concerned with upwind)

Draft


Upwind Tiger's

I agree with the Cleveland loft about the inconsistency of the build on the Tiger and we have made adjustments with the bolt rope to sort this out.

The sail shape problem sounds like it is a rig tuning factor as the sails have the same cut and we are having great success here on the west coast with the same main (1st at Pacific Coast Championships recently). Please log on to our newley created One Design Page for updated tuning guide FT-10 one Design


Hope this helps. If any more questions or problems should arise please feel free to contact me as we want everyone with Ullman Sails to be happy and have the performance they desire and i know is achievable with our sails.




Keith,

Presuming that the luff shape of the main sail is consistent from head board to tack (without cut back for the goose neck attachment) and that >97% of the main sail luff is permanenrly attached to the mast track, how does moving <3% of the luff an inch or two fore and aft "dramatically" change luff curve anywhere but at the very bottom?

I can see the advantage of having a floating tack that can be adjusted vertically; horizontally, not so much.


P.S. Not everyone is enamored with Facebook; those of us who are not, can't see all those wonderful photos that you posted.


I understand your point. In my experience from sailing these boats I can share with you that we see noticeable change when moving the tack offset via the velcro strap. For example, when we ease the velcro strap an inch we can see the max draft move slightly aft and the sail itself get slightly flatter, mainly in the bottom third. The trained eye can see it transfer nearly 2/3 up the sail. When we move it forward 1 inch, it transfers max draft noticeably forward and seems to transfer much higher into the sail, all the way to the top batten in most cases. As you point out we are not changing the luff curve so much as "tricking" the sail into thinking there is more luff curve.

Will try to re-post the pictures....


Thanks for your observations, Keith.

I hope never to get too old to learn something new; lol.

As you know, hull #80 has a D4 Ullman main sail made in Australia. I will try the floating tack fore and aft adjustment and will report on the results. Since the boat is being laid up for the winter, the loose tack experiment may have to wait till next year.

Best Regards,

GP

#22 port tack

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:39 PM

once again I am sorry to hear about your troubles. I would make sure you are close to 4" of pre-bend at the dock. If you are less than that then the sail will be much fuller and when you get to the recommended settings for more wind it will be wrong. I know it is never fun to have a bad experience at any regatta let alone a major event and I hope that you find some answers you are looking for.

We stand behind our product and our customers have been very successful with our sails (obviously not including this incident) and can assure anyone in the market that communication and support from myself and Newport Beach loft is a high priority as is the performance of our product.



This has been said in more than a few threads on SA, but in my opinion knowing the loft and the people who run it is more important than the sticker on the sail. It just so happens that my local loft is an Ullman loft owned by Dave and Julie Bolyard. They are a great resource to have. While I owned my Tiger we had Ullmans and did have a bolt rope problem on the main. It never pulled out of the track but it never worked in the pre feeder, but the sail looked great. Anyway my point is develope a relationship and spend your money with people who are willing to spend time with you and help you develope as a sailor. That doesn't mean racing with you once in a blue moon either. My .02 cents.

#23 akaGP

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:39 PM




Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!




Really sorry to hear that you are not happy with your main. A few things I can hopefully help you with:

Yes we do have a floating tack that should be connected to the mast with velcro strap, same as your clew. This allows you to adjust the tack (pull forward in chop to simulate more Luff curve and back in flatter water). This is standard and works very well on all the boats here on the West Coast.

Floating tack in the picture you will notice the proper way to attach the tack, pulling it tight to the mast will change sail shape dramatically. (Notice there is no cunningham hooked up as we were doing some spinnaker testing only that day and were not concerned with upwind)

Draft


Upwind Tiger's

I agree with the Cleveland loft about the inconsistency of the build on the Tiger and we have made adjustments with the bolt rope to sort this out.

The sail shape problem sounds like it is a rig tuning factor as the sails have the same cut and we are having great success here on the west coast with the same main (1st at Pacific Coast Championships recently). Please log on to our newley created One Design Page for updated tuning guide FT-10 one Design


Hope this helps. If any more questions or problems should arise please feel free to contact me as we want everyone with Ullman Sails to be happy and have the performance they desire and i know is achievable with our sails.




Keith,

Presuming that the luff shape of the main sail is consistent from head board to tack (without cut back for the goose neck attachment) and that >97% of the main sail luff is permanenrly attached to the mast track, how does moving <3% of the luff an inch or two fore and aft "dramatically" change luff curve anywhere but at the very bottom?

I can see the advantage of having a floating tack that can be adjusted vertically; horizontally, not so much.


P.S. Not everyone is enamored with Facebook; those of us who are not, can't see all those wonderful photos that you posted.


I understand your point. In my experience from sailing these boats I can share with you that we see noticeable change when moving the tack offset via the velcro strap. For example, when we ease the velcro strap an inch we can see the max draft move slightly aft and the sail itself get slightly flatter, mainly in the bottom third. The trained eye can see it transfer nearly 2/3 up the sail. When we move it forward 1 inch, it transfers max draft noticeably forward and seems to transfer much higher into the sail, all the way to the top batten in most cases. As you point out we are not changing the luff curve so much as "tricking" the sail into thinking there is more luff curve.

Will try to re-post the pictures....


Thanks for your observations, Keith.

I hope never to get too old to learn something new; lol.

As you know, hull #80 has a D4 Ullman main sail made in Australia. I will try the floating tack fore/aft location adjustment and will report on the results. Since the boat is being laid up for the winter, the loose tack experiment may have to wait till next year.

Best Regards,

GP

#24 owlslick

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 09:18 PM

floating tacks... are in again ?

they were in, then out, nothing new here, except to mess with the newbies as they struggle to learn their rig

floating tacks can be good as it allows for more fine tuning to find a couple of new "gears", especially nice on the carbon rig that the FT 10 has

#25 ejf3

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:46 PM

It seems that Ullman has been taking it on chin, so I would like to mention the crap I went through with Quntaum. I ordered a new set of sails, and the rep was contacting me and discussing the sails. When I received them, the bolt rope was too big. We were able to crank the sail up, but had to have two to three guys hanging on the sail to get it down. Called and had to ship it back. Now the bolt rope was too small. Started to come out. We too were in Pcola and had to enlist the help of the local sailmaker in order to make the thing work. He showed me the rope used and it was crap. I sent a sample of the and a copy of the bill. Quntaum basically said tough luck. When I received the main, it came with a "bag" which did not fit the sail. They said they would repalce it, but it took several phone calls and emails to get it. Bassically, the customer service was terrible.

#26 Kmag

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:54 PM





Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!




Really sorry to hear that you are not happy with your main. A few things I can hopefully help you with:

Yes we do have a floating tack that should be connected to the mast with velcro strap, same as your clew. This allows you to adjust the tack (pull forward in chop to simulate more Luff curve and back in flatter water). This is standard and works very well on all the boats here on the West Coast.

Floating tack in the picture you will notice the proper way to attach the tack, pulling it tight to the mast will change sail shape dramatically. (Notice there is no cunningham hooked up as we were doing some spinnaker testing only that day and were not concerned with upwind)

Draft


Upwind Tiger's

I agree with the Cleveland loft about the inconsistency of the build on the Tiger and we have made adjustments with the bolt rope to sort this out.

The sail shape problem sounds like it is a rig tuning factor as the sails have the same cut and we are having great success here on the west coast with the same main (1st at Pacific Coast Championships recently). Please log on to our newley created One Design Page for updated tuning guide FT-10 one Design


Hope this helps. If any more questions or problems should arise please feel free to contact me as we want everyone with Ullman Sails to be happy and have the performance they desire and i know is achievable with our sails.




Keith,

Presuming that the luff shape of the main sail is consistent from head board to tack (without cut back for the goose neck attachment) and that >97% of the main sail luff is permanenrly attached to the mast track, how does moving <3% of the luff an inch or two fore and aft "dramatically" change luff curve anywhere but at the very bottom?

I can see the advantage of having a floating tack that can be adjusted vertically; horizontally, not so much.


P.S. Not everyone is enamored with Facebook; those of us who are not, can't see all those wonderful photos that you posted.


I understand your point. In my experience from sailing these boats I can share with you that we see noticeable change when moving the tack offset via the velcro strap. For example, when we ease the velcro strap an inch we can see the max draft move slightly aft and the sail itself get slightly flatter, mainly in the bottom third. The trained eye can see it transfer nearly 2/3 up the sail. When we move it forward 1 inch, it transfers max draft noticeably forward and seems to transfer much higher into the sail, all the way to the top batten in most cases. As you point out we are not changing the luff curve so much as "tricking" the sail into thinking there is more luff curve.

Will try to re-post the pictures....


Thanks for your observations, Keith.

I hope never to get too old to learn something new; lol.

As you know, hull #80 has a D4 Ullman main sail made in Australia. I will try the floating tack fore/aft location adjustment and will report on the results. Since the boat is being laid up for the winter, the loose tack experiment may have to wait till next year.

Best Regards,

GP




no problem. Your main was actually designed and constructed here in Newport beach. We bought the D4 laminated sections from Australia and then did all the broad-seaming etc. here.



#27 PHM

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:13 AM

I can say with certainty there is nothing wrong with Ullman mains. I've been very happy with mine in everything from light air to 25+ and with the service from the Ullman guys. Chuck Skewes, Erik Shampain, Kmag, Snapper and Dave Ullman himself have all put a lot of time and effort into developing sails for FT10s and to helping us weekend warriors learn how to get the most out of them. Importantly, they take the time to sail FT10s in order to understand what is needed. Locally, Q and North have also been quite active in FT10s. Everyone has their favorite loft and as someone else said above, it's important to find a loft where you can build a good relationship with your sail maker.

#28 akasideshow

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:25 AM

FWIW we had some bolt rope issues on tigger (Sydney) with our UK Halsey sail
sent it back two or three times and working with john we got it sorted. It seemed there was a couple of issues, one was the track on our mast was misaligned at the joins and this caused some grabbing when using a polyprop bolt rope, making us think we needed a smaller dia. then the smaller dia would pull out and cause issues at the top luff cover
the solution was using a solid cylindrical bead, works great ever since
must give big props tp JP from UK. He's always got time to talk. And its great to work with some one on what we're going to do next time, And he's always happy to take stuff back and get it dropped off for the next race

#29 Bulga Naba

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:29 PM

To All

I thought it was time that I chimed in. As an early adopter of Ullman for our Tiger - Mile High Klub - I couldn't be happier with our selection of sailmaker and the quality of our sails. At some level, we all recognize that all of the major players can produce a decent shape and quality main and it is typically the service side and committment to class development that sets one loft apart from another. As the first to order Ullmans for the Tiger, we started with great customer service and continue to get it at every point in the proceess. Dave, Erik, Keith, Snapper have all spent numerous hours on our boat making sure that every nuance of the design and the rig tune works for us. Much of the initial Tuning Guide and revisions come from work the Ullman team put on our boat, along with others like Nuihi, Ruckus, Occams, among others. The mains and jibs have all been flawless right out of the box. We struggled a little with Kite shape and speed in light air and chop (reads as outside in San Diego) but the entire team worked diligently to overcome it and now we are pleased with our downwind speed across the board. The Ullman team is so committed that if you are having issues with your local loft you can feel free to call Dave directly and he will help you resolve the issues and make it right. Ic oudln't imagine those issues occuring in eather Seattle, Newport or San Diego given the parties involved; but if you have local issues any of these gents will step up and help you, as Keith is obviously trying to do with his input on this forum.

A few rules to follow:

1. Spend the money on the best Aramid sails you can find. Don't kid yourself that Dacron is "just as good." It is no where close
2. Follow the tuning guide as a starting point to set your rig to the intended design of the sail. You will note a dramatic difference. 3" is not 4". A 33% increase in pre-bend is a lot of shape impact that should not be ignored
3. If your local sailmaker is not right there holding your hand as you adapt your sails to the boat (and your driving style) then you need to discuss your expectations with them
4. Once comfortable with your basic set-up, don't be afraid to experiment with adjustments to fine tune the rig/draft/headstay tension to suit your driving style and level of helm feel you want. What Paysor or myself is comfortable with may not be the same as for yourself so sharing our current tune number may or may not be appropriate for you - although all of us are willing to do so.
5. Change rig tune to meet the conditions (seems obvious, but when I am struggling to re-tune in chop between races, I rarely see others doing so)
6. Never leave your main flaked on the boom; even "just" overnight during a regatta. Roll iot, bag it, store it below. Baby it and it will sderve you well
7. Keep a dehumidifier running on your Tiger at all time when not sailing. It is worth a little extra effort to have a bone dry boat, sails and gear. I believe it contributes that extra % point to sail longevity
8. If you are not getting the service you need, have a serious direct conversation with your local team about service expectations. If not satified, elevate to Dave himself

BTW - we used our original Ullman main for four full seasons before ordering a new one and we were still winning with the old one that held its designed shape beautifully for those years in everything from 0 - 35 knots. Then, of course the new one fit like a glove. We willcontinue to use the 5 year old main next season in anything not one Design. And still really piss off those J-boats with envious eyes.

If you want to email or phone me to discuss, I am more than happy to make myself available to you - pinfelise@cresapartners.com or 303-619-9585

Bulga Naba out

#30 CazzaRanda

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:21 PM

the solution was using a solid cylindrical bead, works great ever since


what is a 'solid cylindrical bead'?

Thanks.

#31 solosailor

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:50 PM

First realize that regardless of brand name (except North) most of the sails are made by the China Sail Factory Ltd.

True for some lofts..... especially for Dacron but for string sails that is not true. Our local (NorCal) Doyle loft still stitches the Dacron sails right on the floor.

#32 akasideshow

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 07:38 AM


the solution was using a solid cylindrical bead, works great ever since


what is a 'solid cylindrical bead'?

Thanks.


solid plastic cord?
I'm sure there are other names for it

A circular extrusion?
Plastic dowell?
bendy plastic stick?

#33 Windward Mark

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:15 AM



the solution was using a solid cylindrical bead, works great ever since


what is a 'solid cylindrical bead'?

Thanks.


solid plastic cord?
I'm sure there are other names for it

A circular extrusion?
Plastic dowell?
bendy plastic stick?


A solid piece of garden hose. May work well for getting the sail up and down but will do nothing for performance of the sail. Don't underestimate the advantage of a quality spun dacron/polyester bolt rope on a sails ability to perform.

#34 Windward Mark

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:20 AM




Toy Tiger #58 bought a new full set of Ullmans for the Nationals in Pensacola this year, the spinnaker and headsail were fine the main is a different story.

We took delivery of the sails the month before the Nationals, thank goodnes, to make sure all was well with the sails.
The main was made with a "floating" tack, as in no grommet or any method to attach the tack to the gooseneck, boom or mast.
Apparantly no one at Ullman knew the track didn't go all the way to the gooseneck!
After the first day of sailing a local sailmaker added a small grommet to the tack and we had to tie, with a sail tie, the tack to the mast in able to use the outhaul. Really looked good, right!
Shapeof the main sucked. the draft was so far forward it looked like a 155 genoa on a displacement boat and all of a sudden there was lee helm. Never had lee helm on the Tiger since we owned it.
We finished sailing the weekend in light to moderate winds. No comment from the Ullman rep.

The next month at the Nationals, wind was 20-25 gusting 30. Before the first race, main went up and before the halyard could be tensioned the bolt rope came all the way out of the track, oops,too small!

DNS.

Back to the yacht club, pulled out the Neil Pride main, then back to the course. Our regatta chances shattered at the outset.

The Cleveland loft is blaming the Chinese lack of quality for the track being inconsistant and says the bolt rope supplied was correct, but was willing to replace it. The loft is also claiming the rig is the problem with the shape of the sail not the cut or design.

Customer service with the loft has been horrendous, made 10 calls to the loft in a month period to get some resolution with no return calls.

Bottom line is, no way would I put another Ullman sail on my boat!




Really sorry to hear that you are not happy with your main. A few things I can hopefully help you with:

Yes we do have a floating tack that should be connected to the mast with velcro strap, same as your clew. This allows you to adjust the tack (pull forward in chop to simulate more Luff curve and back in flatter water). This is standard and works very well on all the boats here on the West Coast.

Floating tack in the picture you will notice the proper way to attach the tack, pulling it tight to the mast will change sail shape dramatically. (Notice there is no cunningham hooked up as we were doing some spinnaker testing only that day and were not concerned with upwind)

Draft


Upwind Tiger's

I agree with the Cleveland loft about the inconsistency of the build on the Tiger and we have made adjustments with the bolt rope to sort this out.

The sail shape problem sounds like it is a rig tuning factor as the sails have the same cut and we are having great success here on the west coast with the same main (1st at Pacific Coast Championships recently). Please log on to our newley created One Design Page for updated tuning guide FT-10 one Design


Hope this helps. If any more questions or problems should arise please feel free to contact me as we want everyone with Ullman Sails to be happy and have the performance they desire and i know is achievable with our sails.




Keith,

Presuming that the luff shape of the main sail is consistent from head board to tack (without cut back for the goose neck attachment) and that >97% of the main sail luff is permanenrly attached to the mast track, how does moving <3% of the luff an inch or two fore and aft "dramatically" change luff curve anywhere but at the very bottom?

I can see the advantage of having a floating tack that can be adjusted vertically; horizontally, not so much.


P.S. Not everyone is enamored with Facebook; those of us who are not, can't see all those wonderful photos that you posted.




I understand your point. In my experience from sailing these boats I can share with you that we see noticeable change when moving the tack offset via the velcro strap. For example, when we ease the velcro strap an inch we can see the max draft move slightly aft and the sail itself get slightly flatter, mainly in the bottom third. The trained eye can see it transfer nearly 2/3 up the sail. When we move it forward 1 inch, it transfers max draft noticeably forward and seems to transfer much higher into the sail, all the way to the top batten in most cases. As you point out we are not changing the luff curve so much as "tricking" the sail into thinking there is more luff curve.

Will try to re-post the pictures....


Adjustable tacks do have their benefits but also their downfalls. Get it right, sweet, but the chance that most guys get it right more often than not is slim. 1" forward at the tack will roughly equate to 3/4" extra luff curve at the 1/4 heigh 1/2" more at the 1/2 height etc etc.... If you can't notice that than give it away.

#35 Windward Mark

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:33 AM

And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........

#36 owlslick

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 05:25 PM

And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........


...so you are saying that coaching is better than a new set of sails
...that sails from a premium loft are superior to a lesser known label
...that sailmakers shouldn't use sales people
...that every sailmaker get his own CAD plotters, cutters and "stringing" machinery before he can be classed as a loft

OK... if you say so :(

#37 owlslick

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 05:46 PM

And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........



phunny Kia, BMW et al are not vertically integrated, use a distribution and independent dealer system to sell their products, by your metric, one should buy only from the premises of a vertically integrated factory B)

#38 Windward Mark

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:21 PM


And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........


...so you are saying that coaching is better than a new set of sails
...that sails from a premium loft are superior to a lesser known label
...that sailmakers shouldn't use sales people
...that every sailmaker get his own CAD plotters, cutters and "stringing" machinery before he can be classed as a loft

OK... if you say so :(


I have no idea how you got all of that out of my post. It must be past your bed time.

#39 Windward Mark

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:25 PM


And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........



phunny Kia, BMW et al are not vertically integrated, use a distribution and independent dealer system to sell their products, by your metric, one should buy only from the premises of a vertically integrated factory B)


That makes no sense to me.

Why is a BMW 3 or more times the cost of a Kia? Better quality? Better engineers? Better designers? Bottom line, better car. Are you going to argue that a Kia is a better engineered and fitted car? That the drive quality is higher?

Nothing agaisnt Kia, for some it is all they can afford, and that is fine. But if you can afford a BMW would you buy a Kia? Maybe, to drive to the supermarket or for thekids to trash, where performance doesn't matter. We were talking performance sails were we not?

#40 TD Floater

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:57 AM


And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........


...so you are saying that coaching is better than a new set of sails
...that sails from a premium loft are superior to a lesser known label
...that sailmakers shouldn't use sales people
...that every sailmaker get his own CAD plotters, cutters and "stringing" machinery before he can be classed as a loft

OK... if you say so :(


Oops shouldn't have come over , but....

Sounds about right. We had a top coach in town for the weekend (Traks Gordon) and I got way more than what a new set of sails could do for me. It wasn't even class specific for us, but I gained way more, no I did not use it as effectively and I sailed crap, but a little bit of coaching and a fraction of a fraction of the cost of a set of sails is streets ahead. This for a 14ft dinghy too!

Of course a decent set of sails should be in the wardrobe and I would only buy from the bloke that I can pick the phone up and talk to, but hey I'm a punter with no money, but I aint buying a Kia (or a BMW).

#41 port tack

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 01:37 PM



And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........



phunny Kia, BMW et al are not vertically integrated, use a distribution and independent dealer system to sell their products, by your metric, one should buy only from the premises of a vertically integrated factory B)


That makes no sense to me.

Why is a BMW 3 or more times the cost of a Kia? Better quality? Better engineers? Better designers? Bottom line, better car. Are you going to argue that a Kia is a better engineered and fitted car? That the drive quality is higher?

Nothing agaisnt Kia, for some it is all they can afford, and that is fine. But if you can afford a BMW would you buy a Kia? Maybe, to drive to the supermarket or for thekids to trash, where performance doesn't matter. We were talking performance sails were we not?



Personally I did get what you were trying to explain, but I do agree with Owl that it is a bad analogy. You perceive BMW as a better car, better in what? Price, quality. ride, fuel economy? Here is a quote for Comsumer reports 2011 Coming in at number six and seven on the list are the Volkswagen Jetta and BMW's 3 Series sedans despite the latest news from Consumer Reports. Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, Mini, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz and Jaguar all rank lower than their American and Asian counterparts on the reliability list.

In addition to Japanese brands, Korean automakers Hyundai and Kia as well as America's Jeep and Lincoln exceed the reliability of their European brethren


And BMW was just hit with a very large recall. Anyway peace out.

#42 Windward Mark

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:03 AM




And as for the original post. If you have to ask, save your dough and get some coaching, you will get more out of it.

General rule of thumb is the less you pay the less you get, be it in product, service or quality of the guys designing and making the sails. Think of a Kia vs a BMW.

Comments that most sailmakers get their sails from CSF or another low cost production facility is wide of the mark. Yes, there are more and more people simply selling sails and not operating a full loft, but in AUS at least, they are mostly not actual sailmakers, just sailors who think they will make a quick $. The reality will set in, it may take a year or two or just the A$ shitting itself but the numbers of these "people selling sails" (not sailmakers) will decline.

All I can say is go to a reputable loft, one where the guys at the loft have some runs on the board as sailors in the own right. Most reputable lofts should be able to offer a quality product, and everyone will have their own horror story with a loft as well........



phunny Kia, BMW et al are not vertically integrated, use a distribution and independent dealer system to sell their products, by your metric, one should buy only from the premises of a vertically integrated factory B)


That makes no sense to me.

Why is a BMW 3 or more times the cost of a Kia? Better quality? Better engineers? Better designers? Bottom line, better car. Are you going to argue that a Kia is a better engineered and fitted car? That the drive quality is higher?

Nothing agaisnt Kia, for some it is all they can afford, and that is fine. But if you can afford a BMW would you buy a Kia? Maybe, to drive to the supermarket or for thekids to trash, where performance doesn't matter. We were talking performance sails were we not?



Personally I did get what you were trying to explain, but I do agree with Owl that it is a bad analogy. You perceive BMW as a better car, better in what? Price, quality. ride, fuel economy? Here is a quote for Comsumer reports 2011 Coming in at number six and seven on the list are the Volkswagen Jetta and BMW's 3 Series sedans despite the latest news from Consumer Reports. Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, Mini, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz and Jaguar all rank lower than their American and Asian counterparts on the reliability list.

In addition to Japanese brands, Korean automakers Hyundai and Kia as well as America's Jeep and Lincoln exceed the reliability of their European brethren


And BMW was just hit with a very large recall. Anyway peace out.


Thanks!! I can only laugh..... :lol:




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