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The Great Race


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#1 THOR

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:59 PM

Corsair 28 R, 3 crew

a big Thanks is in order to Ian to have designed the almost perfect boat. The
Boat saved my sorry ass again this last weekend.

Last Race of the year, all the big guns are there and some folks have paid pros
on board ... I am not kidding !! Phrf must be something real important ..lol

I had green crew ..One guy never raced ( ever )but was on my boat once before, the
other raced before but his first time on the boat.
Its a long distance race, if you can call that on our smallish lake.

Wind was 8 to 11 and the usual silly Puffs, you guys around the coast have no
idea about.

I am racing the Sporty class with Vipers and Melges... ( some of them really
really good ...)

Downwind start with Spinnaker is always a treat ...
especially with green crew ...
But I have to say the guys did very well, it was the old fart in the back of
the bus who made all the mistakes.... Like hoisting the spinnaker when the wind
shifted 30 degrees 5 minutes later and the apparent wind moved so much forward
that whenever the boat started to plane, I needed to push the bow down...

after we run over our own lines, I said :
Regroup, get that Spinnaker down and use screacher...
Usually that is done to hoist screacher than take down the spi, but in this case
it was overload on the crew, so I said take it down, take ur time and than we
resume racing.... so much so good.

The screacher worked like GOLD we were actually catching some Melges again and
Life was good....

The next legs was a spinnaker less leg for the Melges and we could keep flying our
Screacher.. ... meaning we caught up, passed most of them and had a great
time....

( Now passing them aint enough. We race with 21 phrf and they have something in
the 90's Thats 70 seconds a mile ? I never understand that... but something like
that anyhow. )

Around the bottom of the lake mark and we had to fight one more of those pesky
Melges off at the mark rounding ( No Overlap NO ROOM ) and he was bitching that
he now had to sail around that HUGE MULTIHULL....
I told him no trouble I will be out of his way in just a second...

The last leg was again 7 to 12 not quite beam reach but not quite hard on the
wind either.... I LOVE this course as the boat just wants to eat miles .... we
were moving and the Melges was fast getting smaller and smaller .... We were
passing other fleets which started 30 minutes before us and people were yelling
and cheering on ...

than the mother of all puffs ..... 28 knots 30 degrees further back ...
I had the crew instructed to ease the sheets on my command .. when the float
went under i told them :
loose.... they release 1 inch ...
loose.... another 1 inch ....
LOOSE ... another two ...
The main was traveller all out and now the lines in my 12 to 1 mainsheet were
singing as they unwound themselves in a big hurry ...

LOOSE .. ALL THE WAY LOOSE ... LET GO ...
(I dont scream or raise my voice on the boat ..but this time it was necessary ... )
I thought if I ever wet my pants, this would be the moment ... ( not enough time ...)

The leeward float meanwhile completely under water the main hull out of the
water.... the ruddder was light .. very light .... no rudder.... darn what the
heck ...

here goes the rest of the screacher ( FINALLY it seemed like minutes passed by )
.... and the boat just made an umpf.... got the nose up and took off like a bat
with mildly flogging sails ....
slowly pulling in the sails and back in
and in no time to 16 to 18 knots of boatspeed again ...

the guys huddling together on the windward tramp and giving eachother high
fives....

I am thinking ..now would be the time to wet my pants ...
but to busy pulling in all that line from the mainsheet ...


the boat again saved my sorry ass....

Thanks Ian


... we got line honors ... for a one hour 38 minutes race we beat the Melges by
about 10 minutes .... 2 of them Phrefed over us at the end and we got third with
40 seconds on 2nd and 70 seconds on the first boat.... ..

If we would have left the spin in the bag and used the screacher we would have
killed them, really bad...
(3rd aint so bad and this will make sure they let us race with them next year... if we would have won by a huge margin we would have gotten trouble...lol )

It was a great Race

pretty sure I wont sell my 28R until I find a SUPER deal on something much
bigger ....I love this boat...

Thor

#2 SeaGul

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 03:28 PM

Boat saved your ass ??



.... it was the boat that started nosediving in just a 28 puff ? - a proper designed boat would have done 24 knots with no nosediving....

#3 DaveK

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 03:40 PM

Who is Ian?

#4 THOR

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 03:58 PM

Boat saved your ass ??



.... it was the boat that started nosediving in just a 28 puff ? - a proper designed boat would have done 24 knots with no nosediving....


you are certainly full of it.
Screacher and full main, sheeted in and a 28/30 puff 30 degress lower, will make your boat go 24 knots ..without any nosediving....
SURE ....


I got that bridge for sale for people like you ....

let us know what boat u are talkin about ....

thor

#5 joey g

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:56 PM

Sounds like a fun ride. Racing and correcting against lead draggers is what it is. Here in S. FL we deal with the same thing; if we correct out too far ahead we get a lot of flack.

Joe

#6 ians

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 10:10 PM

Are you thanking me? lol.
Anyways, I was at said Great Race. Who were the paid pro's?

#7 THOR

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 02:25 AM

Are you thanking me? lol.
Anyways, I was at said Great Race. Who were the paid pro's?

well not real pros ... you know what I mean

many many people who are sailing so much better than I and I think of them as pros....
I guess paying for hotel/expenses and such is a pro in my book ... lol

besides we wouldnt want to get anybody in trouble, right? ... its phrf after all

thor

#8 SeaGul

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 04:53 AM


Boat saved your ass ??



.... it was the boat that started nosediving in just a 28 puff ? - a proper designed boat would have done 24 knots with no nosediving....


you are certainly full of it.
Screacher and full main, sheeted in and a 28/30 puff 30 degress lower, will make your boat go 24 knots ..without any nosediving....
SURE ....


I got that bridge for sale for people like you ....

let us know what boat u are talkin about ....

thor


Well the design is narrow and heavy -due to the fold option - without that it could be lighter and wider - and faster - better stability and easier in the water - speed not nosediving.
Seems it was the let go of the sheets that saves you ass.


#9 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 05:17 AM

Last Race of the year, all the big guns are there and some folks have paid pros
on board ... I am not kidding !! Phrf must be something real important ..lol



Who were the paid pro's?

well not real pros ... you know what I mean

many many people who are sailing so much better than I and I think of them as pros....
I guess paying for hotel/expenses and such is a pro in my book ... lol
thor


Congratulations, you have now officially achieved a ZERO credibility rating!!!

First you say: "...some folks have PAID PROS on board ... I am not kidding!!"

Then, when someone calls you out you backpedal and say: "well not real pros".

Then we have the....."I put up the wrong sail, had to lower the spinnaker and sail bald headed while we hoisted and unfruled the screacher, almost capsized the boat, and still took line honors by a bunch" story. Then you whine about two boats correcting out ahaed of you.

>( Now passing them aint enough. We race with 21 phrf and they have something
>in the 90's Thats 70 seconds a mile ? I never understand that... but something like
>that anyhow. ).

And you think that this "PHRF result" somehow proves that you sailed a better race than the keel boats that corrected out behind you???

Give me a F'ing break!!!
This is the type of b.s. that is so often spewed by typical PHRF whiners.


pretty sure I wont sell my 28R until I find a SUPER deal on something much
bigger ....I love this boat...


Good, we all look forward to the end the constant "bumping" of your Corsair 28R for sale thread.

Regards,

**R.T.**

#10 ians

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:01 PM

Congratulations, you have now officially achieved a ZERO credibility rating!!!



Meh. Most of it sounds right. On the melges, I was fighting to keep the bow on the mark for the first leg with the chute up. The next two were a mix between close hauled and reaching. There were moments on the last leg where we seriously considered the chute, but others proved it wasn't helpful.

I can't attest to the bow diving, but thor did get line honors, passing the melges fleet around the last mark.

#11 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:04 PM

well

at least

you've stopped whining about f24 owners modifying their boatsPosted Image


Hi Eric,

Point taken, but I want to be very clear here......

My "whining" was not about owners modifying their boats. It was about the way the class "officers" went about changing the rules for their own benefit, all the while claiming to be keen on keeping the boat O.D..

**R.T.**

#12 THOR

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 02:53 AM

get a life RT will ya
what is this fixation about me anyhow....
scary really

you are blasting me all over the place. stupid posts all over the Fboat list as well
I wonder what I have done to you

anyhow
thor

#13 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 03:59 AM

you are blasting me all over the place. stupid posts all over the Fboat list as well

thor



Thor,

Nice try, but you're going to have to better than that..........because I have never posted to the F-boats list. Based on the post below, I suspect that you have me confused with Jim Thompson, who I believe is an F-Boat owner in the PNW. Sorry, wrong coast!!!


>On Jul 29, 2011, at 10:23 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>
>Del >
>Hopefully most people have been like me and that just thought that Thor is a fruitcake from his posts. >
>Jim


So, as you can see.......it is not just me!!! The amount of insults, incorrect information, and distorted truths that you continually post has shown everybody exactly here what type of person you are.


Regards,

**R.T.**

#14 THOR

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 01:29 PM

coming from you its almost a compliment

#15 Ian Farrier

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:20 PM

Well the design is narrow and heavy -due to the fold option - without that it could be lighter and wider - and faster - better stability and easier in the water - speed not nosediving.


Somehow I doubt if the above claim is based on any factual analysis of the actual weight change when the Farrier Folding Systemô is incorporated. Otherwise it would have become obvious that it's not just a matter of adding on the weight of the folding system. This is because the braced beam configuration (as used in my system) creates a very efficient beam structure, with no need for a cross beam to go right across the main hull. A considerable amount of weight can then be saved, plus of course there's all that extra room inside.

Attached File  F-22Bow.jpg   57.21K   22 downloads

Better still, the strength of the four individual beams can taper off inboard of the brace (lower folding strut), whereas fixed beams have to be strongest in that area. Thus a lot less carbon/material is required compared to fixed beams, as the unsupported cantilevered part of the beam is much shorter. The net result overall is a wash, or about the same weight, except one gets a nifty folding system which eliminates hours of assembly.

Wire braced short beams could be a little lighter again, but require assembly, plus wire can be unreliable, and sure do not work well if reversed loaded while upside down. Lose the mast and there is very little to stop the beams breaking in rough seas.

I have also always believed that excessive beam is not necessarily a good thing, as the then longer beams have to be stronger, which means heavier, plus they increase windage, and windward ability suffers. To compensate, the rig size is then usually also increased, adding even more windage, weight and expense. Stability goes up sideways, but it stays the same fore and aft, so the boat is much more prone to pitch pole.

In fact we were racing such a beamy over rigged racer a few years back, and it pitch poled right in front of us, to where we had to take avoiding action. It was only blowing around 20 knots, and we were completely comfortable (on an F-31) - could not believe how easily he went in.

Longer beams also mean a much higher trailering height when folded, which is not user friendly, plus they generate surprisingly more windage when towing. Hence I have worked hard for many years to lower the trailering height, which is an important feature of my latest designs.

Attached File  F-22trailer.jpg   110.5K   22 downloads
Low profile beams are much more preferable when trailering

The best overall beam is all a matter of balance, and bigger does not always mean better.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work..

#16 SeaGul

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 06:23 AM

Well one can not state that Ian Farrier dont take net fora serious. Thats a better answer than my semi-funny post really deserves.

I have admired Farriers boats for years - and know that he has a philosophy that goes right through his designs -but could not resist the chance to comment on the tread starters angle on this one.

The option - if the boat dont need to be folded is wider and longer - not only wider - and I have sometimes wonder why Farrier design dont have a little more volume in the amas.


#17 eric e

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 08:52 AM

i think you will find farrier float volume has slowly been increasing over the years

but it's clear they don't have as much volume and length as the race boats that can fly 2 hulls

we all know that boy racers watch the car racing on sunday and then add huge "wings" to their cars on monday

to no, or ill effect

as ian would say

higher volume floats would mean increased cost, weight and windage for what reason?

when the helm of a farrier, weta or other <100% buoyancy float trimaran, sees that the leeward float is completely submerged they know to back-off, spill air, reef the sail, head downwind, whatever

if, without any other modification

a pair of long, 150% floats were grafted onto a farrier or corsair the submerged float warning wouldn't be there and people would try and fly the main hull

the folding beams are not designed to support the whole weight of touring boat with adequate safety margins

the whole boat is not designed for that, think of the cost and complexity of paired rudders on folding floats...

and as well, the boat may very well go slower

you'd probably need to heel about 20degrees to fly the mainhull and that would dump a LOT of pressure from the rig

boats like bmwo-usa17-dogzilla 

often have canting rigs to keep that pressure in the rig

floats as long as the centerhull

and skinny center hulls with no cooking or pots and pans to weigh them down

you may want to make your mobile home look a racing car

but to drive it like a racing car will mean rolling it when you come to the first negative camber corner


#18 SeaGul

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 09:14 AM

Well you dont have to take it as fare as the AC-tri .... A Seacart 30 - or the new 26 is a good example - not to wide or big boats - but with significant more volume-
and seems like they are sailed much harder.

But all the considerations about flying 2 hulls I understand - its a security matter - most Farriers are not as race oriented as the Seacart.

Having a 35 feet very light tri myself I am stunned with its ability to carry sail even in 10-14 m/sek wind - the reason is the speed potensial
that makes it follow the wind closely and taking less strain.

And then we are back to my original comment about the nosediving - they just sailed the boat too hard and had to release the sheets - that saved them.

#19 eric e

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:12 AM

the seacarts should beat equivalent length farrier-corsair boats

after all they are not lugging around the kitchen sink etc. and we know weight reduction is win win for multis

but it wouldn't surprise me to see a well sailed f boat beat a poorly sailed seacart...

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#20 THOR

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 05:26 PM

yup Eric
nice pic .... thats how far we went over I think more or less .... :-)
need to take the pots and pans ( and what else is crammed into it as well ..lol ) out of the boat. Dont know if I would host a pic like that if I would be Corsair, ( I think I saw it from them somewhere... ) but thats another story alltogether.

Seagul
those 10-14 sec a click is rougly 24 knots for us metric handicapped folks

at that time we were pushing it too hard, no doubt. But we are not blessed with steady winds like our friends on the coasts ... when its 8 to 10 with about 40 degrees apparent winddirection the screacher was the right choice.... only the darn puffs in the lower twenties AND 30 degrees back, made us ( almost anyhow ) wet our pants ...

sure the release of the sheets saved our sorry asses ....
but I stand to it... Ians design gave us those 20 seconds delay time, and consegently saved us from a very expensive weekend ( or even worse )

it was a great race though, loads of fun ... By the way that race like most others on our lake are multifriendly , would be cool to see a couple more ....

thor

#21 Ian Farrier

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:44 AM

The option - if the boat dont need to be folded is wider and longer - not only wider - and I have sometimes wonder why Farrier design dont have a little more volume in the amas.


As I said in my earlier posting it is all a matter of balance. Making the floats larger means more weight and expense, and the extra volume has to go somewhere when folded, so it would also mean less accommodation.

There is also a point where more float volume is just not going to make the boat faster to any significant degree, while less room will mean the boat becomes too hard to sell. My priorities also do not include flying the main hull, even though it would be easy to do - just put on a bigger rig. Problem is it also adds complexity and cost (float rudders required) plus most sailors do not have the skills or even wish to be sailing such a boat, and insurance rates would sky rocket, or become unobtainable.

F-boats have crossed oceans, and have maintained 18 knot + averages at times, so are certainly seaworthy and fast enough for most as they are. Does the average sailor really want to cross oceans regularly or go faster again? Most usually want more room and comfort, so again it is all a matter of getting the balance right.

A big attraction has always been the effortless speed with no drama, as on the F-24 shown in:



It was hitting 19 knots at times while passing the Mumm 30 - would going any faster be worth it when it would mean less room and being more on the edge?

The F-22 shown in:



was being sailed even harder and conditions were 25 to 30 knots, with Sknot using its masthead kite, which is pushing it a bit.

A masthead spinnaker in those conditions would not have been my recommendation, but it seemed to be handling it well. The F-22's bigger floats and extra buoyancy up front were doing a good job, plus the crew were also using the right technique of being aft in the cockpit.

Should I reduce the F-22 interior room by making the floats even larger? I think not, as it would not sell so well, and it is probably fast enough for most as it is. Sure, there will be faster racing boats, but more on the edge, and I think most F-22 owners will prefer more room, and more relaxed fun sailing.

It is all a matter of balance.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work

#22 SeaGul

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 05:13 AM

Well given the succes the Farrier designs have - seems like the balance is right.
A comparasion to the Seacart again - they make a raceboat with just a touring possibility in the 30footer.


2010 I followed this trip closely - made in an Corsair 31;
http://www.ousland.n...n-passage-2010/



#23 msouth

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 06:52 PM

" The almost perfect boat !"

There are a lot of them out there...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=CF_wWzbFv_0

#24 Woxbox

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 02:45 AM

I've got to agree the balance is just right. My F27 is the only boat I've ever been on that actually feels bigger inside than it appears to be from the outside. I still haven't figured out how you did that, Ian. It could be one of the boats in that factory photo above, too, being hull #22 -- and it's still going strong.

The thing with speed anywhere -- whether it's a boat or a car or a plane or a bicycle -- is that there's always something that can be done to get a little more performance. But the cost goes up a big step and you give up any number of other desirable things. Dedicated racers don't seem to mind spending endless money on upgrades or entirely new boats -- but there's absolutely no end to that game. Most of us are fine with a comfortable and practical boat that has a really good turn of speed when we want it.




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