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#1 Jedrek

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 12:49 PM

Somebody repair damage like this or is nonsense do this?

#2 amro

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 02:44 PM

nonsense. sheer and utter nonsense.

missing the pic of the damage?

#3 Jedrek

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 06:52 AM

Here are the images
Attached File  017.1.jpg   256.88K   82 downloadsAttached File  014.1.jpg   286.29K   68 downloadsAttached File  003.1.jpg   257.86K   49 downloads

Somebody repair damage like this or is nonsense do this?



#4 jaymac

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 02:02 PM

I tried to fix several like that,
The first one, I put a couple of rings of laser cut 6mm stainless around it and bogged it all in, it was strong enough, but so ugly it put New Tiger Sales back a couple of years.
The second one I cut out all the old broken cloth and chopped strand, dug out the soggy filler around the pin and reglassed it with about 15 layers of woven roving, feathered right out to the back. I have fixed lots of broken fibre glass in my time, so I thought I knew how to do this one.
The repaired cassette lasted just three days on the water....Give up, buy a Betts rudder.

#5 Jedrek

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:26 PM

Thanks jaymac !
Betts is nice,but .../over $ 3 K/
Because rudder fin is O'K,my goal is support /extra fiberglass/ top section/~16"/ and install new HD rudder gudgeons /SS 316/.

#6 akaGP

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 01:21 AM

Thanks jaymac !
Betts is nice,but .../over $ 3 K/
Because rudder fin is O'K,my goal is support /extra fiberglass/ top section/~16"/ and install new HD rudder gudgeons /SS 316/.


Betts replacement rudder cost is closer to $4,000 when tiller, painting, and shipping is added.

Besides, it turns out that even though initially hyped to be significantly stiffer (0" vs ~4" deflection) and significantly lighter (~65 #), Betts carbon fiber rudder does not enhance performance according to all those who purchased one but did not want to equalize weight for OD racing and did not want to take a penalty for racing with a modified rudder in PHRF.

LOL !

#7 Jedrek

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 03:18 AM


Thanks jaymac !
Betts is nice,but .../over $ 3 K/
Because rudder fin is O'K,my goal is support /extra fiberglass/ top section/~16"/ and install new HD rudder gudgeons /SS 316/.


Betts replacement rudder cost is closer to $4,000 when tiller, painting, and shipping is added.

Besides, it turns out that even though initially hyped to be significantly stiffer (0" vs ~4" deflection) and significantly lighter (~65 #), Betts carbon fiber rudder does not enhance performance according to all those who purchased one but did not want to equalize weight for OD racing and did not want to take a penalty for racing with a modified rudder in PHRF.

LOL !


Everything is compromise !
If I do not find good idea,I not do this" rudder gudgeons". note;good idea=strong,look nice,and fair for Tiger class.
I prefer APS product idea.
My intention is fix the problem.Not broken FT class rules!
I do not accept original "poor engineering idea" !/I see 3 completely difference cassettes and 2 or 3 one pcs. solid rudders.
By the way George,how dose your "custom made" aluminium cassette work ? For FT10m class rules is O'K ? Who check?
Your Lol !

#8 akaGP

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 06:39 AM



Thanks jaymac !
Betts is nice,but .../over $ 3 K/
Because rudder fin is O'K,my goal is support /extra fiberglass/ top section/~16"/ and install new HD rudder gudgeons /SS 316/.


Betts replacement rudder cost is closer to $4,000 when tiller, painting, and shipping is added.

Besides, it turns out that even though initially hyped to be significantly stiffer (0" vs ~4" deflection) and significantly lighter (~65 #), Betts carbon fiber rudder does not enhance performance according to all those who purchased one but did not want to equalize weight for OD racing and did not want to take a penalty for racing with a modified rudder in PHRF.

LOL !


Everything is compromise !
If I do not find good idea,I not do this" rudder gudgeons". note;good idea=strong,look nice,and fair for Tiger class.
I prefer APS product idea.
My intention is fix the problem.Not broken FT class rules!
I do not accept original "poor engineering idea" !/I see 3 completely difference cassettes and 2 or 3 one pcs. solid rudders.
By the way George,how dose your "custom made" aluminium cassette work ? For FT10m class rules is O'K ? Who check?
Your Lol !

Since it appears that you were always too far behind to see our cassette while racing, contact me and I'll arrange a private close-up viewing now that the boat is out of the water.

The cassette was designed and machined by Andy Rolph for his FT10 Burrrr, and I believe that the photographs have been posted on this forum. It works great.

When you purchase material for your rudder repair, can you also order a dose of humor; it sure seems that you could use some of it. Either that or get a Swedish girl to tickle you during the massage.

#9 GRUMPY

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 10:22 AM

It's not the rudder holding the FT class back in Chicago...

I wouldn't even try to fix that. Straight to the class approved upgrade rudder, fack the expense.

#10 killerwhale

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 01:00 PM




Thanks jaymac !
Betts is nice,but .../over $ 3 K/
Because rudder fin is O'K,my goal is support /extra fiberglass/ top section/~16"/ and install new HD rudder gudgeons /SS 316/.


Betts replacement rudder cost is closer to $4,000 when tiller, painting, and shipping is added.

Besides, it turns out that even though initially hyped to be significantly stiffer (0" vs ~4" deflection) and significantly lighter (~65 #), Betts carbon fiber rudder does not enhance performance according to all those who purchased one but did not want to equalize weight for OD racing and did not want to take a penalty for racing with a modified rudder in PHRF.

LOL !


Everything is compromise !
If I do not find good idea,I not do this" rudder gudgeons". note;good idea=strong,look nice,and fair for Tiger class.
I prefer APS product idea.
My intention is fix the problem.Not broken FT class rules!
I do not accept original "poor engineering idea" !/I see 3 completely difference cassettes and 2 or 3 one pcs. solid rudders.
By the way George,how dose your "custom made" aluminium cassette work ? For FT10m class rules is O'K ? Who check?
Your Lol !

Since it appears that you were always too far behind to see our cassette while racing, contact me and I'll arrange a private close-up viewing now that the boat is out of the water.

The cassette was designed and machined by Andy Rolph for his FT10 Burrrr, and I believe that the photographs have been posted on this forum. It works great.

When you purchase material for your rudder repair, can you also order a dose of humor; it sure seems that you could use some of it. Either that or get a Swedish girl to tickle you during the massage.


Thank God George is back from probation (why doesn't Scot permanently banish him?). Maybe he can keep the class down for another year?

#11 lar015

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:46 AM

I still don't understand what is causing the cassett to degrade this way. Is it the salt water, the pressure from the rudder, an inappropriate design? How do I know if I have this kind of damage? Will all of the cassett's degrade this way? How do check for this kind of damage?

Hull #78

#12 akaGP

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:11 AM

I still don't understand what is causing the cassett to degrade this way. Is it the salt water, the pressure from the rudder, an inappropriate design? How do I know if I have this kind of damage? Will all of the cassett's degrade this way? How do check for this kind of damage?

Hull #78

On the few originally built OEM rudders the failure was caused by factory non compliance with the layup schedule. My original cassette aboard hull #7 was the very first one to fail.

On subsequent rudders that were improved both in terms of layup schedule and built but nevertheless failed, it could have been crew error.

One can not have the cassette pin disengage causing the cassette to rotate only on ~50% of the designed bushing area and expect no damage.

#13 Clewless

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:06 AM

I still don't understand what is causing the cassett to degrade this way. Is it the salt water, the pressure from the rudder, an inappropriate design? How do I know if I have this kind of damage? Will all of the cassett's degrade this way? How do check for this kind of damage?

Hull #78

Lars,
We on 008 have probably gone through more cassettes than any other boat out there (4 in total).

The early issues were partly due to design (too marginal) and manufacturing (incorrect layup of fibers). These were improved in the last two units we had but we still saw the cassettes deteriorate over time. My opinion is the amount of flex offered by the glass fiber lamination design is simply too high and this causes the gel coat to crumble exposing the embedded metal parts to corrosion and further decline. This can probably be solved by going to a carbon fiber layup but the factory was not setup to do carbon.

The poor fit between the cassette and the top part of the foil also help create point loads which most likely overwhelmed the part as designed.


Clew

#14 altered ego

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:20 PM


I still don't understand what is causing the cassett to degrade this way. Is it the salt water, the pressure from the rudder, an inappropriate design? How do I know if I have this kind of damage? Will all of the cassett's degrade this way? How do check for this kind of damage?

Hull #78

On the few originally built OEM rudders the failure was caused by factory non compliance with the layup schedule. My original cassette aboard hull #7 was the very first one to fail.

On subsequent rudders that were improved both in terms of layup schedule and built but nevertheless failed, it could have been crew driver error.

One can not have the cassette pin disengage causing the cassette to rotate only on ~50% of the designed bushing area and expect no damage.


fixed it for ya

#15 akaGP

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:47 PM



I still don't understand what is causing the cassett to degrade this way. Is it the salt water, the pressure from the rudder, an inappropriate design? How do I know if I have this kind of damage? Will all of the cassett's degrade this way? How do check for this kind of damage?

Hull #78

On the few originally built OEM rudders the failure was caused by factory non compliance with the layup schedule. My original cassette aboard hull #7 was the very first one to fail.

On subsequent rudders that were improved both in terms of layup schedule and built but nevertheless failed, it could have been crew driver error.

One can not have the cassette pin disengage causing the cassette to rotate only on ~50% of the designed bushing area and expect no damage.


fixed it for ya

Correct; I meant to say operator error.

That is exactly why since the very first sail I have not experienced any cassette failure.

#16 Jedrek

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:15 AM

I need your opinion!
If I use this idea, I need reinforcing /extra fiberglass/ rudder blade above water line, where do i install this hardware?

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#17 akasideshow

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 09:31 AM

I need your opinion!
If I use this idea, I need reinforcing /extra fiberglass/ rudder blade above water line, where do i install this hardware?


while I like the plan you really should consider replacing the current blade with something stiffer, lighter and smaller (unless you are)
before gong to too much other trouble,

there will be less load to deal with and the better control will make you happy when its blowing

#18 ChrisK

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:00 PM

I need your opinion!
If I use this idea, I need reinforcing /extra fiberglass/ rudder blade above water line, where do i install this hardware?

Why not to convert OEM rudder-cassette to the permanent rudder (not lifting similar to Betts configuration). It can be done by adding the fittings/gudgeons (perhaps stronger but similar like on M24, J24, etc).
Small recess on the OEM rudder, a hole for the tiller attachment and to install the gudgeon(s) will be cheap, not taking much time, work the same or better than OEM lifting rudder arrangement.
ChrisK

#19 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

I agree with Chris. If you don't really need to rudder to lift why bother with a casette?

#20 Tiger 20

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:37 PM

I agree with Chris. If you don't really need to rudder to lift why bother with a casette?

If anyone has a cassette they want to part out with PM me, as i need one.

#21 FT-10 #9

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:22 AM


I agree with Chris. If you don't really need to rudder to lift why bother with a casette?

If anyone has a cassette they want to part out with PM me, as i need one.




WHERE ARE YOU?
I have rudder, cassett, phils tiller the works.
#9

#22 Tiger 20

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 01:34 AM



I agree with Chris. If you don't really need to rudder to lift why bother with a casette?

If anyone has a cassette they want to part out with PM me, as i need one.




WHERE ARE YOU?
I have rudder, cassett, phils tiller the works.
#9


I am in Florida. I just need the cassette

#23 Jedrek

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 04:20 AM

I agree with Chris. If you don't really need to rudder to lift why bother with a casette?

from picture
This yellow part is existing rudder blade .
Black "hardware"-fittings /gudgeons.
question-this existing rudder blade be enough strong around new gudgeons?

#24 akaGP

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 06:39 AM


I agree with Chris. If you don't really need to rudder to lift why bother with a casette?

from picture
This yellow part is existing rudder blade .
Black "hardware"-fittings /gudgeons.
question-this existing rudder blade be enough strong around new gudgeons?

One of the variables to consider would be the surface area between the OME cassette and the rudder vs the surface area between your "hardware" and the rudder, which appears to be <20% of the original.

#25 facthunt

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:45 AM

I need your opinion!
If I use this idea, I need reinforcing /extra fiberglass/ rudder blade above water line, where do i install this hardware?



is your drawing a sliding cassette or is it an assembly you are going to fasten to the blade?
if its a cassette i think it will fail/crack where the yokes meet that vertical connector arft.
the blade will not keep the yokes alligned unless they are fastened to it.
i have tryed somthing similar to your design,because it seemed like a practicle solution but after examining the failure
i realised theres more to it.

#26 Jedrek

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:19 AM

color;Citrine/green-yellow/.................existing rudder blade
black......................................... suggestion new hardware/gudgeons/
if finally be like this;blade need to be reinforce around this area .

#27 kelly

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 12:47 AM

You know , I have not seen too much said about the new rudder's performance so I might just fly some ideas that I have been thinking since our NSW ( Australia ) State Titles this past weekend.

I am part owner of a Tiger which has not updated to a new rudder and we have traditionally raced very closely with two other Tigers in our State and National Titles. Not a lot in it , we normally have to work very hard to match them. This past weekend in our State Titles I noted that we seemed to be measurably higher and faster than these two Tigers which both carried New Rudders. On the down side, when running down wind we seemed to be giving away distance to these New Rudder guys.
This may have nothing to do with the Rudder, there are lots of other variables, Different Kites for instance, both the new rudder guys also have North's Kites, we have the original Neil Pryde ( well a new one ) kite. Our crews have not changed much but rig set ups may have also made a difference, although one of the new rudder guys thought his rig was over tight for the light conditions, so work that one out.

In any event has anyone else noted these speed differences and are you prepared to say the Rudder has an influence one way or another. Note we had light conditions and did not get into any real shy run fights , so can not really say if the new rudder guys were able to hang on longer which may be an advantage. There must be some advantage for th $4K , I think at this time I would rather spend the money on Foils above the deck rather than below.

#28 Strobe

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 04:44 AM

You know , I have not seen too much said about the new rudder's performance so I might just fly some ideas that I have been thinking since our NSW ( Australia ) State Titles this past weekend.

I am part owner of a Tiger which has not updated to a new rudder and we have traditionally raced very closely with two other Tigers in our State and National Titles. Not a lot in it , we normally have to work very hard to match them. This past weekend in our State Titles I noted that we seemed to be measurably higher and faster than these two Tigers which both carried New Rudders. On the down side, when running down wind we seemed to be giving away distance to these New Rudder guys.
This may have nothing to do with the Rudder, there are lots of other variables, Different Kites for instance, both the new rudder guys also have North's Kites, we have the original Neil Pryde ( well a new one ) kite. Our crews have not changed much but rig set ups may have also made a difference, although one of the new rudder guys thought his rig was over tight for the light conditions, so work that one out.

In any event has anyone else noted these speed differences and are you prepared to say the Rudder has an influence one way or another. Note we had light conditions and did not get into any real shy run fights , so can not really say if the new rudder guys were able to hang on longer which may be an advantage. There must be some advantage for th $4K , I think at this time I would rather spend the money on Foils above the deck rather than below.


Kelly
I am a big fan of the Betts rudder. The differance up wind may be because you can stand up the mast staighter with the new rudder. Remember when we first keep raking the mast to try and get some feel. I think I stood it up 2 holes. This may account for your extra height upwind and your loss down?
I also have ad A2 runner and race agaist a tiger with a new NP kite. There is a big differance in depth and speed. Its worth the extra money.
Just my 2 cents worth.

#29 owlslick

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:24 PM

You know , I have not seen too much said about the new rudder's performance so I might just fly some ideas that I have been thinking since our NSW ( Australia ) State Titles this past weekend.

I am part owner of a Tiger which has not updated to a new rudder and we have traditionally raced very closely with two other Tigers in our State and National Titles. Not a lot in it , we normally have to work very hard to match them. This past weekend in our State Titles I noted that we seemed to be measurably higher and faster than these two Tigers which both carried New Rudders. On the down side, when running down wind we seemed to be giving away distance to these New Rudder guys.
This may have nothing to do with the Rudder, there are lots of other variables, Different Kites for instance, both the new rudder guys also have North's Kites, we have the original Neil Pryde ( well a new one ) kite. Our crews have not changed much but rig set ups may have also made a difference, although one of the new rudder guys thought his rig was over tight for the light conditions, so work that one out.

In any event has anyone else noted these speed differences and are you prepared to say the Rudder has an influence one way or another. Note we had light conditions and did not get into any real shy run fights , so can not really say if the new rudder guys were able to hang on longer which may be an advantage. There must be some advantage for th $4K , I think at this time I would rather spend the money on Foils above the deck rather than below.


I find it difficult to spend $4K to replace a rudder that apparantly is not holding the boat back, top 2 boats last year at east coast champs used OEM rudders, in boat for boat match ups there is not an advantage that stands out... on paper the ~70 pound weight diffferential and stiffness of CF should contribute to better performance... the cassette
rudder has been good for those of us that travel and trailer launch allowing for launch and transitioning out of thin water. The OEM rudder currently is the better choice and serving well... maybe knowing the need to sail harder we are able to overcome any disadvantages.

There are noticable differences between the original OEM spinnaker and newer generation spinnakers. Most of the newer spinnakers carry more area and are able to tack better ( due to broader shoulders ) which goes to gains in performance. Off wind performance most likely has nothng to do with which rudder is being used.

As often is the case, sailing harder and smarter, outweighs the advantage gained by the equipment... for now I have 4k reasons to keep using the OEM rudder

#30 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:43 PM

You know , I have not seen too much said about the new rudder's performance so I might just fly some ideas that I have been thinking since our NSW ( Australia ) State Titles this past weekend.

I am part owner of a Tiger which has not updated to a new rudder and we have traditionally raced very closely with two other Tigers in our State and National Titles. Not a lot in it , we normally have to work very hard to match them. This past weekend in our State Titles I noted that we seemed to be measurably higher and faster than these two Tigers which both carried New Rudders. On the down side, when running down wind we seemed to be giving away distance to these New Rudder guys.
This may have nothing to do with the Rudder, there are lots of other variables, Different Kites for instance, both the new rudder guys also have North's Kites, we have the original Neil Pryde ( well a new one ) kite. Our crews have not changed much but rig set ups may have also made a difference, although one of the new rudder guys thought his rig was over tight for the light conditions, so work that one out.

In any event has anyone else noted these speed differences and are you prepared to say the Rudder has an influence one way or another. Note we had light conditions and did not get into any real shy run fights , so can not really say if the new rudder guys were able to hang on longer which may be an advantage. There must be some advantage for th $4K , I think at this time I would rather spend the money on Foils above the deck rather than below.


There are obviously variables that have a greater impact than just the rudder.

#31 Snapper

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:10 PM

This may have nothing to do with the Rudder, there are lots of other variables, Different Kites for instance, both the new rudder guys also have North's Kites, we have the original Neil Pryde ( well a new one ) kite.


I think you answered your own question.

#32 Ten8ious

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

Interesting thoughts on the rudder. We spent a bit of time over the weekend closely watching its performance over the weekend. In light smooth conditions the rudder works like it should carving a clean laminar path through the water, what we saw however was as the water got lumpier and the boat powered up the fairing at the top of the rudder becomes a horrible source of drag. It is worst when the boat is flat (under kite) but even on the wind you can visibly see it.

I guess in light conditions the boats stance is bow down, stern up so the upper part of the rudder that seems to be draggy is clear of the water. As the bow comes down it starts to drag.

Reality is though the rudder played no part in the weekends results - Balmain Tiger found another gear upwind in all conditions. Well done guys. The class in Aus owes you heaps and the win is well earnt. Fit the boat out with a Quantum AP kite and it will be game over.

#33 Snapper

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:00 AM

Interesting thoughts on the rudder. We spent a bit of time over the weekend closely watching its performance over the weekend. In light smooth conditions the rudder works like it should carving a clean laminar path through the water, what we saw however was as the water got lumpier and the boat powered up the fairing at the top of the rudder becomes a horrible source of drag. It is worst when the boat is flat (under kite) but even on the wind you can visibly see it.

I guess in light conditions the boats stance is bow down, stern up so the upper part of the rudder that seems to be draggy is clear of the water. As the bow comes down it starts to drag.

Reality is though the rudder played no part in the weekends results - Balmain Tiger found another gear upwind in all conditions. Well done guys. The class in Aus owes you heaps and the win is well earnt. Fit the boat out with a Quantum AP kite and it will be game over.


Without that fairing/reinforcing, the rudder would be too weak. This is mostly because the boat is not as well balanced as some other of it's ilk and has severe loading. Think of the fairing as a strake and you will feel better about it. Compared to the urination fountain of the OEM set up, it's an improvement, no? Not to mention the same or worse drag from a cassette that doesn't taper up. The problem is in the exit from the transom, not the rudder.
The new rudder has more bite and more control. It's the best solution for not an optimal initial presentation.I had a great time racing FT's last weekend. Fun boats all round.

#34 DA-WOODY

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    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:04 AM


I agree with Chris. If you don't really need to rudder to lift why bother with a casette?

If anyone has a cassette they want to part out with PM me, as i need one.


I have an extra cassette !

if you have something to play it on it's all yours










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