25 replies to this topic

[Feral]

Checking the ASBA site and see there is a Longtze measured at .941. Are they that quick? At 40 grand AUD for a front running boat ramp up the adds.

[GybeSet®]

I would say a re-measure and checks to ensure the aussie/o'seas measuring is the same

they are not rating speed remember, just physical values

imo a this boat should not rate any more than a T-7, which would have a bigger kite just for starters

it should/ or could not with our measurers
I believe it could be optimised down to match the t7 ratings if one were here.
Show me any numbers that says it should rate higher

the full squaretop main would make a little difference but not that much

[Turkey Slapper]

Yeah saw that a while ago, over there id say they dont have the guys in the know from the asba ect keeping an eye out for stray numbers that would send the rating out there a little, or in this case a lot!

eg like the numbers that were pulled a few weeks ago to be fixed!

If the number is right, shit they must be a quick cheap boat! The info on them should have them as gs said around the T7, typo error i would hope!

[steveromagnino]

They've been raced up here in Asia; the guys who have raced me and raced against the Longtze say the performance is pretty comparable to a Shaw 650 give or take a little.

I do recall Gingerbread saying that the kites and the mains on these boats are pretty massive though. So probably would give TS a run for his money in the lighter stuff ;-)

It's a design evolved from the T650/680, with a normal sort of a construction and slick rig; however its only 'average' winged sporty type dimensions in width and draft and so on; I am not sure you can make a 6.8m boat suddenly by far the quickest boat of its size just by putting a massive grunty square top main on it.

We've always hoped they would come to race with us some time - there's one for sale that maybe i can convince someone locally to buy; but based on what the Singaporeans and Phuket guys said about the boat who have raced against it/on it; seems like a quick little machine, but it's not (IMHO) 0.941 quick; the SMS rating system normally works so not sure why it would be out so far this time around unless there is something wrong in the application - maybe they don't know what the weight is supposed to include, or the rig dimensions are wrong, or something.

[HTFU]

Should be .832 - typo on the web site. Will be corrected in coming days. About right for the boat. For sale on the ASBA web site.

[AnchorSteam]

I am considering moving into a sport boat in the Sydney area. Why would I buy a Longtze over a T7, a Shaw 650, or Magic 25. The T7 already has some local boats and the chance for the some one-design racing (Magic too?) and the Shaw 650 seems to have much more momentum. If they are similar speeds and it seems price, why?

[frayedsheet]

I am considering moving into a sport boat in the Sydney area. Why would I buy a Longtze over a T7, a Shaw 650, or Magic 25. The T7 already has some local boats and the chance for the some one-design racing (Magic too?) and the Shaw 650 seems to have much more momentum. If they are similar speeds and it seems price, why?

My $0.02... Sydney Harbour is a 10-15, sometimes 18 knot, (only occasionally more), lumpy washing machine venue... the only SB racing is within the SASC Super 30 fleet... so with that in mind...

T7 @ $30K & SMS 0.810-830: is just about spot on, but the Longtze is a slightly more modern updated version. Lighter, a bit less ballast, but nothing very extreme.

Magic 25 @ $15K & SMS 0.781 (super optimised) - 830: is a heavy, rather outdated machine; its nearly 1000kg... though it is great value. Bang vs Buck is tough to beat.

Shaw 650 @ $25K (45K new) & SMS 0.815: now you're talking - very cool. But i am not quite convinced its a Sydney Harbour boat. It gets into its stride only at 15+ and then there is the washing machine chop.

The Longtze @ $33K & SMS 0.832 (and only 6 months old) has the light-ish weight to take advantage of the lightish air venue, yet still has a bit of weight to handle the chop. It also has maybe just enough waterline. Plus plenty of SA, when compared to the weight, to allow it to still perform when it can't get up and plane proper.

A T8 / T-8 / T8r @ $60K & SMS 0.880?... thats enjoyable too.

[GybeSet®]

don't forget the Magic is as fast

and don't forget the 'other' series, the driftfest CYC Winters

still the same story tho

Winter must haves: mucho sail area & rig height, waterline, displacement sailer, and momentum to keep moving thru the big boat shadows and ferry wash

T-boat, Magic

[Feral]

.941 to .832 Strange typo. But looks more logical. Seems all the HK boats have changed. Must be in the translation or maybe the exchange rate. Any of these in Aus yet.

[bang the left corner]

Well that may not be a typo in the actual handicap but it may be a typo error in say the length, sail area etc etc. I had a SMS number a few years back that had a mid girth on my mainsail as being 800mm bigger than the actual sail (Typo in the data entry). It did take about a year for us to check and we got a huge correction in our SMS handicap. My guess is that is was a typo in the data entry and this resulted in a SMS handicap that was way off the charts. As far as the best boat in Sydney conditions I would go for a T boat, a little heavier, plenty of sail area and the bonus of several other boats that are almost One Design.

BTLC

[oregami]

Anchor Steam,
Frayedsheet mentioned some great boats in his comparison. Sailing any one of them, you will have a good time.
The great thing about sports boats is that you can come in after an afternoon's sailing and you've had a few great rides, a few spills and you can have a beer and don't really care who wins.


One more boat to think about for Sydney Harbour is the Viper 640. The Viper 640 @ $36K (including trailer, sails and covers) & SMS 0.755 is a good buy.

The Viper has a really sweet shape for upwind work under (and over) 15ks in a chop.
Here in WA we beat the T7's over the line and only finish a few minutes behind the 750's and so beat them on SMS.
Of the 2 shaw 650's in the state, we beat them regularly on SMS.

Upwind, the Viper 640 seems to match the Shaw 650 and a be a bit better in slop. The Shaw is pretty flat and square, forward, and in a chop we seem to outdo them upwind.
Downwind we seem to be able to run deeper in the light winds and reach higher in the heavy winds.

Given a bit of breeze and an easy leg the Shaw will beat us and most other boats.

We have six Viper 640's racing in WA. We have been saying we have to get over east and show the boats in a major regatta for the last few years. We are still trying to get one boat to Geelong Race Week this year.

Unfortunately for our Australian promotion efforts, the lure of the the North American Championships in Marblehead with 50+ boats and the "Fun Regattas" , the Barcardi Race Week, the Mardi Gras Race Week in New Orleans and the Charleston Race Week means we will look at two or three (West) Australian crews travelling to the US in our winter, 2012.

Great to see Aussie crews participating in International Sports Boat Regattas, though. I'm sure they will do us proud on the course, and partying too!!

[AnchorSteam]

Viper 640 is certainly an option, but 1) 0.765 SMS puts it on the slow end and 2) it has not caught on in Sydney (purely west coast in AU). Another option with possible 1 design cred is an Elliot 7, which rates faster than the Viper and similar to the Magic 25. Otherwise, you can go one-off like Resin Dog or one of the other boats listed on the ASBA site with a slightly higher SMS rating. Of course, over 2 hours the difference between 0.78 and 0.82 is ~5 minutes so sailing skill and decisions are more important.

It would be great to sail one-design which is my preference, but that just does not exist in Sydney for sport boats. So adopting the fast is fun motto seems like the way to go, which results in a sport boat or a trapeze dinghy. Agree on the have fun and enjoy beers afterwards, which is why I sail with mates on my boat and not necessarily the best guys or on other people's boats.

My basic criteria are: primary 1) fast is fun, 2) crew with 3-4, 3) hard stand not trailer (know there is only one place in Sydney), and 4) <$25K AUD (could go higher); and secondary 1) potential for one-design, 2) ability to sell later on, and 3) fun/twilights with the kids. Based on that, the T7 and Shaw are front runners, but the Magic could be best bang for $$.

[frayedsheet]

Anchor Steam,
Frayedsheet mentioned some great boats in his comparison. Sailing any one of them, you will have a good time.
The great thing about sports boats is that you can come in after an afternoon's sailing and you've had a few great rides, a few spills and you can have a beer and don't really care who wins.


One more boat to think about for Sydney Harbour is the Viper 640. The Viper 640 @ $36K (including trailer, sails and covers) & SMS 0.755 is a good buy.

The Viper has a really sweet shape for upwind work under (and over) 15ks in a chop.
Here in WA we beat the T7's over the line and only finish a few minutes behind the 750's and so beat them on SMS.
Of the 2 shaw 650's in the state, we beat them regularly on SMS.

Upwind, the Viper 640 seems to match the Shaw 650 and a be a bit better in slop. The Shaw is pretty flat and square, forward, and in a chop we seem to outdo them upwind.
Downwind we seem to be able to run deeper in the light winds and reach higher in the heavy winds.

Given a bit of breeze and an easy leg the Shaw will beat us and most other boats.

We have six Viper 640's racing in WA. We have been saying we have to get over east and show the boats in a major regatta for the last few years. We are still trying to get one boat to Geelong Race Week this year.

Unfortunately for our Australian promotion efforts, the lure of the the North American Championships in Marblehead with 50+ boats and the "Fun Regattas" , the Barcardi Race Week, the Mardi Gras Race Week in New Orleans and the Charleston Race Week means we will look at two or three (West) Australian crews travelling to the US in our winter, 2012.

Great to see Aussie crews participating in International Sports Boat Regattas, though. I'm sure they will do us proud on the course, and partying too!!

One thing I forgot... Sydney Harbour is a great place for a day sail. Head down to the Fish Market, Up to Manly for a swim, or just a cruise past the Opera House.

Id much rather do that on a boat of the T persuasion... ie 300ish+ kg in the bulb.

That does leave the E7 in the running, but I'm one of those anti-symm people.

If your budget was stretched, and OD not on the list the E780 "Game Over" would make a great SH boat too... seems its a very different ship to most every other 780.

On that basis a T7 would be your SH winner; there will be plenty of other T7's to race against for years to come, they're pretty cheap, tough, hold their value, and are able to show the way to the Sports Yachts that you will be racing against week in week out.

[Obsessed]

Brand new set of rags and a 1 or 2 year old carbon rig on Game Over

[oregami]

Gotta agree Frayed Sheet.
The T7 or Elliots are more of a multi function boat compared to the Viper or Shaw. I can't see my wife sitting sedately on the side of the viper with champagne and canapes while doing 19 knots downwind.

Anchor Steam, don't be deceived by a low rating of .765 for the Viper. While the SMS rating might suggest a boat is slower or faster, it doesn't always work out that way.
I can't remember the last time the Elliots here beat us across the line and definitely not on SMS.. The T7 should consistently beat us over the line given a rating of around .815 - but they don't..

[Mambo Kings]

Gotta agree Frayed Sheet.
The T7 or Elliots are more of a multi function boat compared to the Viper or Shaw. I can't see my wife sitting sedately on the side of the viper with champagne and canapes while doing 19 knots downwind.

Anchor Steam, don't be deceived by a low rating of .765 for the Viper. While the SMS rating might suggest a boat is slower or faster, it doesn't always work out that way.
I can't remember the last time the Elliots here beat us across the line and definitely not on SMS.. The T7 should consistently beat us over the line given a rating of around .815 - but they don't..

Must be the sheer raw talent of the WA Viper crews !

Should we be worried , awaiting your arrival for the Marblehead NAs? In the meantime we'll try and post some pictures of cocktails and canapes downwind - "salt or no salt on those margaritas?"

[oregami]

Shaken..... not Stirred

[Timbo]

Here is a vid of a Viper doing 19+ down the track... cocktails would be in order.. what's a canape??

[GybeSet®]

Should we be worried

yep

[tur102]

I am considering moving into a sport boat in the Sydney area. Why would I buy a Longtze over a T7, a Shaw 650, or Magic 25. The T7 already has some local boats and the chance for the some one-design racing (Magic too?) and the Shaw 650 seems to have much more momentum. If they are similar speeds and it seems price, why?

My $0.02... Sydney Harbour is a 10-15, sometimes 18 knot, (only occasionally more), lumpy washing machine venue... the only SB racing is within the SASC Super 30 fleet... so with that in mind...

T7 @ $30K & SMS 0.810-830: is just about spot on, but the Longtze is a slightly more modern updated version. Lighter, a bit less ballast, but nothing very extreme.

Magic 25 @ $15K & SMS 0.781 (super optimised) - 830: is a heavy, rather outdated machine; its nearly 1000kg... though it is great value. Bang vs Buck is tough to beat.

Shaw 650 @ $25K (45K new) & SMS 0.815: now you're talking - very cool. But i am not quite convinced its a Sydney Harbour boat. It gets into its stride only at 15+ and then there is the washing machine chop.

The Longtze @ $33K & SMS 0.832 (and only 6 months old) has the light-ish weight to take advantage of the lightish air venue, yet still has a bit of weight to handle the chop. It also has maybe just enough waterline. Plus plenty of SA, when compared to the weight, to allow it to still perform when it can't get up and plane proper.

A T8 / T-8 / T8r @ $60K & SMS 0.880?... thats enjoyable too.

Farr 25 OD 60K SMS rating 0.832

[Obsessed]

I am considering moving into a sport boat in the Sydney area. Why would I buy a Longtze over a T7, a Shaw 650, or Magic 25. The T7 already has some local boats and the chance for the some one-design racing (Magic too?) and the Shaw 650 seems to have much more momentum. If they are similar speeds and it seems price, why?

My $0.02... Sydney Harbour is a 10-15, sometimes 18 knot, (only occasionally more), lumpy washing machine venue... the only SB racing is within the SASC Super 30 fleet... so with that in mind...

T7 @ $30K & SMS 0.810-830: is just about spot on, but the Longtze is a slightly more modern updated version. Lighter, a bit less ballast, but nothing very extreme.

Magic 25 @ $15K & SMS 0.781 (super optimised) - 830: is a heavy, rather outdated machine; its nearly 1000kg... though it is great value. Bang vs Buck is tough to beat.

Shaw 650 @ $25K (45K new) & SMS 0.815: now you're talking - very cool. But i am not quite convinced its a Sydney Harbour boat. It gets into its stride only at 15+ and then there is the washing machine chop.

The Longtze @ $33K & SMS 0.832 (and only 6 months old) has the light-ish weight to take advantage of the lightish air venue, yet still has a bit of weight to handle the chop. It also has maybe just enough waterline. Plus plenty of SA, when compared to the weight, to allow it to still perform when it can't get up and plane proper.

A T8 / T-8 / T8r @ $60K & SMS 0.880?... thats enjoyable too.

Farr 25 OD 60K SMS rating 0.832

Why suggest a boat that is 60k and goes as fast as a 30k boat (T7)?? Do people really want to spend extra money for no apparent benefit?

[ludo56]

If it is performing well in light wind, the Longtze is an incredibly exciting boat in strong wind and waves.
here is a small video of a run at 18 knots


And a surf during the last European event.
 XDL_5278.jpg   245.96K   21 downloads

The Longtze marketing concept is direct distribution.
All deck and hull equipments are made in Europe and US, they are shipped to Qingdao where the sandwich hull and keel/bulb are made.
The boat is shipped whereever the happy future owner is... or more exactly the 3 future owners are because the boats are shipped by set of 3 in a single 40' maritime container.
Longtze is shipping independantly the carbon mast and rigging (from UK) and the carbon rudder (from France).
Sail design and makers are open (subject to Class Rule).
Longtze standard sails are quite good.
Around 60 boats in Europe
 XDL_4807.jpg   270.15K   19 downloads

So the key for developing the fleet in Sydney is to group 3 owners...
Prices are there in euro... just need the currency conversion + ask a rebate to Longtze for first AUS boats...

[Pewit]

The other boat to consider is the Flying Tiger 10M which has the largest sportboat fleet in Sydney Harbour with 12 boats and seems to be ideal for the conditions - light enough for the 10-15 Knot winds but you can load up the crew for the occasional blow.

They have an annual one-design regatta and their own fleet in the Sydney Harbour Regatta but they also do well in the handicap races.

There are a couple fully kitted out for sale at an advertised price around AU$70K

[GybeSet®]

that would be great news if you weren't in a Longtze or SMS thread mate

this ain't the gd classifieds mate, and yeah a 7 mtr SB is a slightly different market

[Flatbag]

that would be great news if you weren't in a Longtze or SMS thread mate

this ain't the gd classifieds mate, and yeah a 7 mtr SB is a slightly different market

And apart from that,Feral, the originator of this thread, has alreeady been down the FT10 path and long since moved on from there.

[Feral]

Fun times