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#201 Scarecrow

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:51 PM

Its not necessary. But then the Oracle designers are human like the rest of us which means that when they make a decision that is different to someone else's they tend to cling to what they have decided, often until it is too late. Also remember that originally they were planning on racing AC72 in the world series which would have given them much more development time.

#202 Mariner

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

Anybody who thinks there isn't an advantage to time on the water with a complex wing needs to stop taking whatever drugs they are on. Simulation will get you only so far. Artemis have managed to get one up on the others. And it is not something the others can respond to very easily because it isn't just a matter of modifying a suitable boat. Design and build schedules will have been programmed a long time ago. You cannot simply say you now want to finish the design and build of the first wing, say, 4 months early. It would throw the whole program into caos. The Artemis program will have been developed around this, others won't have been.

I think this one move by Artemis is a bit of a game changer. Before, OR must have been pretty confident that given the same amount of time for development and time on the water as prescribed by the protocol, their wing knowledge would make it hard for other teams to catch up. Now Artemis will have had more big wing experience than OR by the time OR get their first AC72 wing on the water.



This is why I am perplexed that no one has acquired A5 !!! It could probably be gotten cheap and what a test platform it would be right? Wrong?

#203 Tony-F18

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:12 PM

A5 is absolutely huge, a 40m wing would look like an optimist sail on a VOR70.

#204 GauchoGreg

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:31 PM


Anybody who thinks there isn't an advantage to time on the water with a complex wing needs to stop taking whatever drugs they are on. Simulation will get you only so far. Artemis have managed to get one up on the others. And it is not something the others can respond to very easily because it isn't just a matter of modifying a suitable boat. Design and build schedules will have been programmed a long time ago. You cannot simply say you now want to finish the design and build of the first wing, say, 4 months early. It would throw the whole program into caos. The Artemis program will have been developed around this, others won't have been.

I think this one move by Artemis is a bit of a game changer. Before, OR must have been pretty confident that given the same amount of time for development and time on the water as prescribed by the protocol, their wing knowledge would make it hard for other teams to catch up. Now Artemis will have had more big wing experience than OR by the time OR get their first AC72 wing on the water.



This is why I am perplexed that no one has acquired A5 !!! It could probably be gotten cheap and what a test platform it would be right? Wrong?


It is a catamaran, however, and would therefore classify as a surrogate.

#205 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:32 PM

TF18 ^ I figure A5 was 33 to 34m on the ama line, so yes..

Seems on-topic:
http://www.bymnews.c...s.php?id=100036

#206 SimonN

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:48 PM

If it was necessary to go the route of Artemis Oracle would have done it . Its obvious they don't think so as they have had plenty of time and resources to do so . Its not like the tri appeared out of thin air yesterday :)

I have triued to explain it once but here goes again! By the time the tri appeared, development and build programs were already signed, sealed and delivered. As has been mentioned on other threads, even materials need to be ordered months in advance. So by the time Artemis had shown the world what they were up to, it was just about impossible for others to change their programs. I bet the tri didn't appear until the first wing was aready designed and after it had started being built. For other teams to make it work, they would have needed to source, modify and test a tri, which based on DZ you have to think would take a couple of months and then you would need to shorten the design and build phase of the first wing, probably by cutting the amount of remaining time by half. Anything else would mean it wasn't worth doing and even then, I think it would have been hard to step a wing before mid May. Then you need to consider that in doing this, other things in the program would have to be changed as well. While money might be infinite, people, factilities and materials have limitations - if your workforce is already doing other things and the factory is full of other build work, what do you do? Yes, youi can aquire more, but that also takes time. Bottom line is, Artemis goit one over everybody else and good on them.

What will be interesting to see is if others now get a tri for 2 reasons. first, there are no sail periods after the first AC72 is launched and this gets around them. Second, I am pretty sure that a team could have 2 tris with wings and be able to sail against each other. I would not be surprised if by about September, we didn't see some teams with 2 tris. And this was meant to be a cost saving AC! lol.

#207 SW Sailor

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:51 PM

Anybody who thinks there isn't an advantage to time on the water with a complex wing needs to stop taking whatever drugs they are on. Simulation will get you only so far. Artemis have managed to get one up on the others. And it is not something the others can respond to very easily because it isn't just a matter of modifying a suitable boat. Design and build schedules will have been programmed a long time ago. You cannot simply say you now want to finish the design and build of the first wing, say, 4 months early. It would throw the whole program into caos. The Artemis program will have been developed around this, others won't have been.

I think this one move by Artemis is a bit of a game changer. Before, OR must have been pretty confident that given the same amount of time for development and time on the water as prescribed by the protocol, their wing knowledge would make it hard for other teams to catch up. Now Artemis will have had more big wing experience than OR by the time OR get their first AC72 wing on the water.

Agreed, good post.

You can run simulations till the computers smoke, but nothing gets validated without on the water testing, especially with a new platform. Given this wing is similar to an AC 72 wing, it will give them valuable working experience on the water.

RC is recently quoted as saying you won't see dramatic design differences that will have an impact on performance, but it will be about how the wings are used and controlled that will have a greater impact on performance. Artemis could most likely be on their second generation of refinements when others first wing hits the water.

#208 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:56 PM

^ It's not 'similar to' - it IS an AC72 wing. Mast is almost twice the length of those hulls, it has to be.

Nope, they're not effing around in Valencia, it's all-on. Good point above somewhere too, about how this platform is good for even past July.

Those outer hulls could even be AC72 experimental.

#209 Mariner

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:01 PM


If it was necessary to go the route of Artemis Oracle would have done it . Its obvious they don't think so as they have had plenty of time and resources to do so . Its not like the tri appeared out of thin air yesterday :)

I have triued to explain it once but here goes again! By the time the tri appeared, development and build programs were already signed, sealed and delivered. As has been mentioned on other threads, even materials need to be ordered months in advance. So by the time Artemis had shown the world what they were up to, it was just about impossible for others to change their programs. I bet the tri didn't appear until the first wing was aready designed and after it had started being built. For other teams to make it work, they would have needed to source, modify and test a tri, which based on DZ you have to think would take a couple of months and then you would need to shorten the design and build phase of the first wing, probably by cutting the amount of remaining time by half. Anything else would mean it wasn't worth doing and even then, I think it would have been hard to step a wing before mid May. Then you need to consider that in doing this, other things in the program would have to be changed as well. While money might be infinite, people, factilities and materials have limitations - if your workforce is already doing other things and the factory is full of other build work, what do you do? Yes, youi can aquire more, but that also takes time. Bottom line is, Artemis goit one over everybody else and good on them.

What will be interesting to see is if others now get a tri for 2 reasons. first, there are no sail periods after the first AC72 is launched and this gets around them. Second, I am pretty sure that a team could have 2 tris with wings and be able to sail against each other. I would not be surprised if by about September, we didn't see some teams with 2 tris. And this was meant to be a cost saving AC! lol.


So are you saying that AC 72's COULD be what we all know as Trimarans even though the AC 72 rule states that they are cats? or are you saying teams might build or acquire a tri only for testing? That I just don't get. if 72's must have only two hulls, why ever build a boat with 3 hulls? or, is the AC 72 rule broader and the definition of catamaran much greyer? (lots of questions today, learning a lot)

#210 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:02 PM

^ To cheat, of course! :)

#211 SimonN

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:19 PM

So are you saying that AC 72's COULD be what we all know as Trimarans even though the AC 72 rule states that they are cats? or are you saying teams might build or acquire a tri only for testing? That I just don't get. if 72's must have only two hulls, why ever build a boat with 3 hulls? or, is the AC 72 rule broader and the definition of catamaran much greyer? (lots of questions today, learning a lot)

Wow, this is hard! I am not saying that AC72's could be tris. Of course the tris are only for testing. The beauty of the tri is that sailing on a tri is unlimited, while sailing the AC72's is closely controlled.

There are many who believe that the differences in hull design won't be a lot and that isn't really a route to competitive advantage. Most accept that the biggest performance differences will be in the rig. Therefore, any extra time on teh water with the rig is gaining advantage. The rig doesn't know if it is on a cat or a tri and the differnces between the 2 platforms isn't so much as to lose the benefit. The sailors are going to be able to gain experience of using the wing, how to trim it etc while the design team will get all sorts of data. Forget what the actual platform is, what Artemis has done is found a way to over double the amount of on water experience they will have with an AC72 wing. I suspect they have also found a way of 2 boat testing wings. It really doesn't matter that it is a tri.

#212 Rohanoz

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:00 AM

Here's my MS Paint submission for the test 'non-surrogate' platform for the teams...

Attached File  AC Test Platform.jpg   89.62K   68 downloads

#213 Estar

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:01 AM

By the time the tri appeared, development and build programs were already signed, sealed and delivered. As has been mentioned on other threads, even materials need to be ordered months in advance. So by the time Artemis had shown the world what they were up to, it was just about impossible for others to change their programs. I bet the tri didn't appear until the first wing was aready designed and after it had started being built.

Simnon, we all saw photos of the boat on May 23 2011, already converted to 72'. And we all discussed when the protocol first came out (Sept 2010) the tri 'loophole' (designed to allow OR to keep USA17). So, the competitors had plenty of time to acquire and modify a tri if they had thought it was important, time even to hire a new group of designers/builders if necessary. At least then, they obviously did not think so.

So, I don't buy the 'they were taken by surprise and did not have time to react' argument. They all saw the tri opportunity, and had time to do it, and two teams decided not to.

In a complex development project there are always a million things you could pursue. The losing strategy is to try to do all or even many of them. Management attention is the limited resource in projects like this. You have to focus and not be distracted. Diverting management attention even partially to designing and building a non-racing platform seems marginal unless there are good reasons.

I agree that both the reasons you mention are interesting:

(a) 2-boat testing in big tri's (with essentially AC72 hulls as amas) would have been interesting. Even sailing on one amas, with AC72 amas, the boat would be different because of the weight and aero drag of the central hull. Someone more expert on 2-boating, like NCS, would have to comment on how valuable that would be. But it does not sounds like anyone (not even AR) is going down that path - and that says something about how they think about its potential. AR could 2-boat the tri against the gen 1 AC72 - again I don't know how much valuable data that would generate. The platforms are so very different - just look at the rudders they have on the tri!

( b ) getting around the sailing days limitations is timely because the rules did change in the middle of this process, re the AC72's in the ACWS, and the old rules would have given about twice the early AC72 sailing time. (I might note that there may be another loophole in the AC72 sailing days limitation, the "bona fide regatta" loophole, that might allow teams to get back to the originally planned sailing days) They can sail this boat as much as they want. If it handles like an AC72 (again it may not because the central hull is in fact there, and the rudders are quite different at least so far) and the deck layout is like an AC72, I agree, everything else being equal, that would seem to be valuable, especially for a team with very little big wing experience. But my original comment was about whether it made sense for other teams to start a tri NOW, and I think it would be more of a distraction and disruption than the benefits merit.

A further speculative reason for AR, might be if JK is really designing a 'rule beater' tri, a la the D35 shape, then training on a 'real' tri would be a much closer simulation of the real thing - and the handling and deck layout could be much closer.

And this was meant to be a cost saving AC! lol.



#214 ~HHN92~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:10 AM

^ To cheat, of course! :)



You sound like DC talking about why anyone would build a fiberglass 12m.

#215 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:15 AM


^ To cheat, of course! :)



You sound like DC talking about why anyone would build a fiberglass 12m.

Very good! Had that Plastic Fantastic DC quote in mind too.

Saw a Jobson article earlier today at sailingworld.com, it had some fun AC lines from old-times, think that one was included; lost the link.

#216 ~HHN92~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:20 AM


Anybody who thinks there isn't an advantage to time on the water with a complex wing needs to stop taking whatever drugs they are on. Simulation will get you only so far. Artemis have managed to get one up on the others. And it is not something the others can respond to very easily because it isn't just a matter of modifying a suitable boat. Design and build schedules will have been programmed a long time ago. You cannot simply say you now want to finish the design and build of the first wing, say, 4 months early. It would throw the whole program into caos. The Artemis program will have been developed around this, others won't have been.

I think this one move by Artemis is a bit of a game changer. Before, OR must have been pretty confident that given the same amount of time for development and time on the water as prescribed by the protocol, their wing knowledge would make it hard for other teams to catch up. Now Artemis will have had more big wing experience than OR by the time OR get their first AC72 wing on the water.

Agreed, good post.

You can run simulations till the computers smoke, but nothing gets validated without on the water testing, especially with a new platform. Given this wing is similar to an AC 72 wing, it will give them valuable working experience on the water.

RC is recently quoted as saying you won't see dramatic design differences that will have an impact on performance, but it will be about how the wings are used and controlled that will have a greater impact on performance. Artemis could most likely be on their second generation of refinements when others first wing hits the water.


How many times have we seen the 'greatest thing since sliced bread' turn out to be crap on the water. Modeling in the various forms just cannot replace real world testing. Integrating the two is obviously the best way. Model it, test it. Refine, model it, test it.......................

#217 Xlot

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:26 AM

The 70' tris seem a good platform for unlimited wing testing.
....
There is a MOD70 without sponsors (ex-Veolia)...


Intriguing ... but offshore tris have a lot of dihedral (that's why they cant rigs): with an ultra-tall wing I suppose you'd have to lower amas or risk stability.

#218 rule69

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:49 AM

Naively I suppose it still seems to me like a flat tri would be a great test platform. You might even be able to use three cat hulls and you could fool around with beam location and rig location as well as do all the crew training.



#219 Estar

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:59 AM

Naively I suppose it still seems to me like a flat tri would be a great test platform. You might even be able to use three cat hulls and you could fool around with beam location and rig location as well as do all the crew training.


It is interesting that neither TNZ nor AR has thought it worthwhile to buy extra AC45's to modify as 'real world' testing/training platforms - as was clearly expected by the protocol. Only OR has done that. I head that RC judged the 45 was the most "efficient scale" test bed. TNZ did the SL33's and AR has done the tri. Interesting differences in approaches.

#220 RMK

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:00 AM

true and per the pics Artemis' tri's amas are both close to or kissing the water at rest


The 70' tris seem a good platform for unlimited wing testing.
....
There is a MOD70 without sponsors (ex-Veolia)...


Intriguing ... but offshore tris have a lot of dihedral (that's why they cant rigs): with an ultra-tall wing I suppose you'd have to lower amas or risk stability.



#221 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:04 AM


Naively I suppose it still seems to me like a flat tri would be a great test platform. You might even be able to use three cat hulls and you could fool around with beam location and rig location as well as do all the crew training.


It is interesting that neither TNZ nor AR has thought it worthwhile to buy extra AC45's to modify as 'real world' testing/training platforms - as was clearly expected by the protocol. Only OR has done that. I head that RC judged the 45 was the most "efficient scale" test bed. TNZ did the SL33's and AR has done the tri. Interesting differences in approaches.

How do you know AR, or LR for that matter will not be testing with their two AC45's ?

#222 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:06 AM

^ We haven't seen good recent photos of the AR Tri's hulls, or of the boards. Planing hulls? L Foils? T rudders?

There could be a lot in the works, with even this config being V1.0.

Can't wait to see closeups, and hear explanations, very cool new development.

#223 Estar

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:26 AM


It is interesting that neither TNZ nor AR has thought it worthwhile to buy extra AC45's to modify as 'real world' testing/training platforms - as was clearly expected by the protocol. Only OR has done that. I head that RC judged the 45 was the most "efficient scale" test bed. TNZ did the SL33's and AR has done the tri. Interesting differences in approaches.

How do you know AR, or LR for that matter will not be testing with their two AC45's ?


My comment was specific to buying 'extra' ac45's to modify out of one-design configuration. As OR has done, with their 3rd and 4th.

Both AR and LR bought their 2nd AC45's quite late in their AC72 design process and seem so far to be leaving them in one-design configuration. They certainly have not rushed off to make them test beds as OR has done and as TNZ has done with the SL33's.

#224 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:32 AM

^ Maybe because LR bought into the TNZ program, and because AR has the much bigger-boat one, so neither one needs extra 45's.

OR's ability to do with 45's what T/lL are doing w 33's strikes me as an advantage; as does being on the Bay.

AR may have leaped everyone, that's a Big project in the works. I expect to see the ART on the Bay soon.

#225 Estar

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:39 AM

^ Maybe because LR bought into the TNZ program, and because AR has the much bigger-boat one?

Agreed

OR's ability to do with 45's what T/lL are doing w 33's strikes me as an advantage; as does being on the Bay.

Agreed

AR may have leaped everyone, that's a Big project in the works.

Perhaps - everyone else here seems convinced of this, and most of you know more about race boat testing than I do. I certaintly agree it's an interesting way to get extra sailing time - the two things I question are (1) how much of a management distraction it has been to get to this point,, and (2) how close it is in sailing to an AC72.



#226 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:40 AM



It is interesting that neither TNZ nor AR has thought it worthwhile to buy extra AC45's to modify as 'real world' testing/training platforms - as was clearly expected by the protocol. Only OR has done that. I head that RC judged the 45 was the most "efficient scale" test bed. TNZ did the SL33's and AR has done the tri. Interesting differences in approaches.

How do you know AR, or LR for that matter will not be testing with their two AC45's ?


My comment was specific to buying 'extra' ac45's to modify out of one-design configuration. As OR has done, with their 3rd and 4th.

Both AR and LR bought their 2nd AC45's quite late in their AC72 design process and seem so far to be leaving them in one-design configuration. They certainly have not rushed off to make them test beds as OR has done and as TNZ has done with the SL33's.

Nothing is stopping either AR or LR from experimenting with them, be it foils, rudders, etc. and I haven't seen anything that says they aren't going to, have you ?

#227 Estar

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:58 AM

Nothing is stopping either AR or LR from experimenting with them, be it foils, rudders, etc. ?


#1 Its getting late in the design loop, and they will have real AC72's to play with soon. Most of the value in 'small' modifications is already past.

#2 Many of the interesting foil modifications require the hulls to be modified (eg foil and rudder boxes) out of one-design configuration - which they could only do with one of their AC45's and would defeat their use for identical 2-boating.

#3 I believe AR and LR have both said (in different ways) that the extra AC45 is primarily for extra crew time (which AR felt they were missing in their ACWS performance, and where LR are obviously behind the experience curve), and did not mention design testing.

#4, so far it's a plain fact they have not - really that was my point.

#228 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:00 AM

(1) how much of a management distraction it has been to get to this point

Maybe it has been management's primary focus. What better?

JK is kicking ass in the VOR, do you really suspect he put the chip on the wrong color this time?

#229 SimonN

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:27 AM

the two things I question are (1) how much of a management distraction it has been to get to this point,, and (2) how close it is in sailing to an AC72.[/color]

None, and close enough!

I cannot see how it can be a distraction at all. Is modifying the AC45's to test things a distraction for OR? I don't think so! As to how close it is to sailing an AC72, the more I think about it, the cleverer it seems to be. At a guess, the beam will be pretty similar, so righting power will be about the same. The tri has a bit more platform windage, but this isn't about that. This is about being able to use the wing and in that respect, it is absolutely fine. In terms of understanding how the wing performs, there is little more that would be learnt from having the wing on an AC72 compared with the tri. When everybody else is stepping their first wing and sailing with it for the first time, Artemis will have had over 3 months experience and data gathering that they can feed back into future generations of wing. The crew will have 3 months more sailing time with an AC72 wing than the other teams. These wings have a whole new level of suphistication over the AC45 wings, with many more variables let alone very different control systems.

IMO, this gives Artemis a huge advantage over the other challengers and goes some way to addressing the lead that OR had. If I were in the Artemis camp, I would feel pretty happy at the moment. I think they have outwitted the opposition. The question now is whether their actual designs will be good enough and whether they can use the extra time/data/experience to advantage. At least they will know that they have stolen a lead over the others and that breeds confidence, which in turn breeds success.

#230 Rohanoz

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:36 AM

So will Artemis build 4 hulls of their first AC72, and put a 'slug' in the middle to make one of them a tri? Why not - popping two at once out of a mould is a smart thing to do. Then, two boat testing that no-one else can do bar ETNZ/LR - except in AR case they can share real time data and logging.
Now if they would just test in a decent SF-like location, then my money would be definitely shifting courts.

#231 rule69

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:44 AM

SimonN, yes. It seems that way to me also. But, Artemis telegraphed this a long time ago. This isn't at all unexpected. I'm still kind of skeptical that OR at least didn't have plenty of time and money to put a similar platform together if they had wanted to. My guess is either they didn't see a need or they have one in a shed waiting for a wing. Anyway, fun to finally see something happening on the water.

#232 kiwi_jon

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:46 AM

So will Artemis build 4 hulls of their first AC72, and put a 'slug' in the middle to make one of them a tri? Why not - popping two at once out of a mould is a smart thing to do. Then, two boat testing that no-one else can do bar ETNZ/LR - except in AR case they can share real time data and logging.
Now if they would just test in a decent SF-like location, then my money would be definitely shifting courts.


Do you not think that this Protocol rule would preclude that?

29.3. The acquiring or obtaining of a yacht capable of being measured as an AC72 Yacht without
significant modification shall be deemed to be the acquisition of an AC72 Yacht;



#233 trenace

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:49 AM

Wouldn't Sawzall'ing out a center hull be a major modification?

#234 CrushDigital

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:56 AM

SimonN, yes. It seems that way to me also. But, Artemis telegraphed this a long time ago. This isn't at all unexpected. I'm still kind of skeptical that OR at least didn't have plenty of time and money to put a similar platform together if they had wanted to. My guess is either they didn't see a need or they have one in a shed waiting for a wing. Anyway, fun to finally see something happening on the water.


So a repeat of the wing coming out of the tent in SD for the first time in the run up to AC33.

#235 maxmini

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:07 AM

SimonN, yes. It seems that way to me also. But, Artemis telegraphed this a long time ago. This isn't at all unexpected. I'm still kind of skeptical that OR at least didn't have plenty of time and money to put a similar platform together if they had wanted to. My guess is either they didn't see a need or they have one in a shed waiting for a wing. Anyway, fun to finally see something happening on the water.


Exactly +1

#236 KingMonkey

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:10 PM

Whether this will give them huge amounts of data relevant to the AC72, I do not know, however, it will give them a chance to check out their wing in terms of slowly climbing up the curve of giving it more and more load,so that when the AC72 comes out they hit the ground running.

Anything above that would be an added bonus in my book.

#237 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

'First look'
http://www.cupexperi...t-an-ac72-wing/

#238 Tony-F18

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:17 PM

Pierre rushed to the Artemis base this morning to get some pics of it sailing but he just missed them.
Hopefully he will catch them on the way back in.

#239 maxmini

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:18 PM

Shirley Robertson did a really nice piece on Artemis today. Showing the team base, wing and transport of first 72 hull etc.

#240 Monster Mash

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:24 PM

Whether this will give them huge amounts of data relevant to the AC72, I do not know, however, it will give them a chance to check out their wing in terms of slowly climbing up the curve of giving it more and more load,so that when the AC72 comes out they hit the ground running.

Anything above that would be an added bonus in my book.



+1
Gotta learn to walk befoe you can run.

#241 kitemare

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:28 PM

New photos of the boat & wing out on the water

http://www.americasc...ale-AC72-wing-/

#242 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:32 PM

JK is kicking ass in the VOR, do you really suspect he put the chip on the wrong color this time?


You might want to take a look at JuanK's record in non-VOR boats before saying this.

#243 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:39 PM



JK is kicking ass in the VOR, do you really suspect he put the chip on the wrong color this time?


You might want to take a look at JuanK's record in non-VOR boats before saying this.

Maybe, but this wing looks fantastic

Posted Image

http://www.vsail.info/2012/03/15/artemis-racing-debuts-full-scale-ac72/

#244 Monster Mash

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:44 PM

New photos of the boat & wing out on the water

http://www.americasc...ale-AC72-wing-/



I'm not seeing 3 elements as reported earlier by others.

#245 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:46 PM

I love wings, but history would say anyone betting on JuanK for this one is likely on a flier to a corner that only he thinks will work.

#246 JWR

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:02 PM


New photos of the boat & wing out on the water

http://www.americasc...ale-AC72-wing-/



I'm not seeing 3 elements as reported earlier by others.


Pretty clearly (in Pierre's picture) there were 3 elements on the lower sections and two on the upper section.

In this photo the forward element is the clear/whitish, the second element is the darkest grey, and the third element is the light grey.

#247 Xlot

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:06 PM

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Having a hard time reconciling slots/hinges

#248 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:16 PM

Photos from our old friend Sander (a fucking great racer BTW). Sander van der Borch / Artemis Racing.

Attached Files



#249 JWR

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM

From front to back :
Black leading edge + clear, first element. unknown if there's any leading edge twist control in it


then SLOT (visible in the second pic at the dock from the left side)

Dark Grey/Black second element

SLOT (stops at very top element, where it's just a two-section AC45 wing with the first slot, visible in both pictures)

Lighter grey third element



#250 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:19 PM

You will all notice that the only clear photos are dumbed way down to keep them from serious study. I'm hoping Pierre has the big glass when he shoots so we can play with zoom more.

#251 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:22 PM

This one might give you a better view of the slots/gaps.

From Sander van der Borch / Artemis Racing.

Attached Files



#252 Monster Mash

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:27 PM

^^^
Looks like 3.



#253 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:49 PM

From front to back :
Black leading edge + clear, first element. unknown if there's any leading edge twist control in it


then SLOT (visible in the second pic at the dock from the left side)

Dark Grey/Black second element

SLOT (stops at very top element, where it's just a two-section AC45 wing with the first slot, visible in both pictures)

Lighter grey third element



Well I'm not so sure about the top flap being a simple single piece. In Clean's second shot (post #248), I think you will see that it is a two piece flap like the five below.

Posted Image


I realise that clashes with this as well http://www.cupexperi...garrows-BIG.jpg - but I gotta go with my lie'n eyesPosted Image

#254 the loose cannon

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:58 PM

I am actually a little surprised at the chord of the first element, the flaps are pretty far back as a % of total chord.

If it is that long chorded, it must be pretty 'fat' Naca 12-ish? The initial image looked like 2 element up top, but I might be on board with Nav here...

#255 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:03 PM

Hard to find slots in the images we have so far.

#256 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:09 PM


So will Artemis build 4 hulls of their first AC72, and put a 'slug' in the middle to make one of them a tri? Why not - popping two at once out of a mould is a smart thing to do. Then, two boat testing that no-one else can do bar ETNZ/LR - except in AR case they can share real time data and logging.
Now if they would just test in a decent SF-like location, then my money would be definitely shifting courts.


Do you not think that this Protocol rule would preclude that?

29.3. The acquiring or obtaining of a yacht capable of being measured as an AC72 Yacht without
significant modification shall be deemed to be the acquisition of an AC72 Yacht
;


Presumably this is to stop the silly 'oar in the water', 'temporary centre hull' workarounds that we were discussing a few days ago rather than being directed at a bona fide trimaran.

This door seems to have been left wide open for Artemis and others to exploit

#257 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:30 PM

Hard to find slots in the images we have so far.


First shot post #248, (sorry too dumb to be able to repost it) firstly a great shot of the AC45X and 72 alongside each other and secondly it very clearly show the three elements* and the two slots of the new wing.

Or in Clean's shot above, though the slots are not as clear.



* from right to left:

- the black white black is the main wing spar. It's made in two pieces and joins ˝ way up - where you see the white(er) panel

- slot #1

- first flap element, incorporating flap control arms, 6 of these (some see 5)

- slot #2

- 2nd flap element, 6 of these.




Hopefully someone will tell us the proper aero names for all these 'bits'.

#258 Xlot

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:43 PM

This one might give you a better view of the slots/gaps.


It does, thanks.

The spar is square (like US17) with a nose fairing and cutouts for top shrouds and backstays. The doubt now is if the second "piece" is a plain flap - but then the gap should be faired over like in ETNZ's SL33. It would seem flaps are solid skinned, wonder where the 38 hydraulic cylinders are.

#259 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:02 PM


This one might give you a better view of the slots/gaps.


It does, thanks.

The spar is square (like US17) with a nose fairing and cutouts for top shrouds and backstays. The doubt now is if the second "piece" is a plain flap - but then the gap should be faired over like in ETNZ's SL33. It would seem flaps are solid skinned, wonder where the 38 hydraulic cylinders are.


So they are!

Re the hydraulics, does the presence or absence of a 'manta board' indicate anything here?

#260 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:04 PM

Is everything that is not white, solid skin??

phone screen..

#261 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:07 PM

Is everything that is not white, solid skin? phone screen..


Yeah it looks that way - all very fair and smooth, (except for that flapping white panel needed to access the join in the wing spar and nose fairing)

#262 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:15 PM

^ Thanks, can't wait to get a good look at the one Clean posted with the guy pointing up, just now saw it there.

Lots of pieces, wow..

#263 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

^ Thanks, can't wait to get a good look at the one Clean posted with the guy pointing up, just now saw it there.

Lots of pieces, wow..


Why wait?

Posted Image

#264 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:41 PM

^ another good pic! :)

Agreed with X, am too wondering if #1 behind the spar has a plain flap.

#265 JackGriffin

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:44 PM

Pierre rushed to the Artemis base this morning to get some pics of it sailing but he just missed them.
Hopefully he will catch them on the way back in.


No such luck. It was very hazy near Sagunto today, so he just drove home. Unfortunately he had bad info - he thought dock out was 1 hr later than it actually was... :(

#266 Xlot

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:48 PM

- first flap element, incorporating flap control arms, 6 of these (some see 5)


I think control arms serve the rear (main) flap. Their position matches main flap hinge.

No lead element twist, BTW

#267 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:02 PM

^ Probably it is there where the only slot is? oops, slots are? if you can call them separate..

#268 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

AP wire, all over
--
Swedish challenger 1st to use AC72 wing sail

By BERNIE WILSON AP Sports Writer
Posted:   03/15/2012 03:02:07 PM PDT

SAN DIEGO—A Swedish challenger for the America's Cup is the first syndicate to test a radical wing sail that will be used in next year's competition on San Francisco Bay.
Artemis Challenge says it sailed a trimaran with an AC72 wing Thursday in Valencia, Spain. The 131-foot (40-meter) wing is as tall as a 13-story building. Made predominantly of carbon fiber and looking like an airplane wing, it weighs just more than one ton.
The wing sail will be the primary feature of the 72-foot catamarans that will be used in the Louis Vuitton Cup for challengers and the America's Cup match in 2013. In the buildup to 2013, teams are competing in the America's Cup World Series in 45-foot cats.
--

#269 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:10 PM


- first flap element, incorporating flap control arms, 6 of these (some see 5)


I think control arms serve the rear (main) flap. Their position matches main flap hinge.

No lead element twist, BTW



Yeah that is a detail I want to see.

Here you see the control arms cranked forward on the port side and lots of camber in the #2 (main) flap elements. Just how the relationship with the #1 flap element works and is adjusted and exactly where the control arms are attached and hinged would be nice to know. This is probably old hat on C-class or some such right?

Posted Image
Sander van der Borch / Artemis Racing.

#270 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:37 PM

Snicker :)

Sometimes, size really does matter!

#271 the loose cannon

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:41 PM

Anyone got the skinny on who built this work of art (Marstrom?) If anyone can find this kind of thing out - it is this hardy gang of thieves....

#272 Xlot

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:47 PM

Posted Image

(bow is to the right)

This is the classic arrangement with a plain flap, standard on C-cats from I believe PL VI (1985) onwards. Said flap is slaved to the main one via tuning forks or cords, to keep optimal slot width. But you see the lead element / plain flap hinge is carefully faired over, no visible air space.

@tlc: made by Future Fibres over Persico mold

#273 nav

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:49 PM

Anyone got the skinny on who built this work of art (Marstrom?) If anyone can find this kind of thing out - it is this hardy gang of thieves....


The wing construction plant was covered here months ago, photos and all - but which thread??

#274 Estar

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:12 AM

It would seem flaps are solid skinned.


I wondered how long it would take someone to note that - what sort of very thin carbon do you suppose that is? :) :)

#275 KarlMarx

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:12 AM


It would seem flaps are solid skinned.



I wondered how long it would take someone to note that - what sort of very thin carbon do you suppose that is? :) :)




I would presume it is the readily commercially available "Spread Tow" Technology - used more and more in Aerospace composites. Nothing exclusive about it.

http://shop.r-g.de/e...-80-g/m-HT.html

CM



#276 misconseption2348

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:23 AM

Or TPT

#277 us772

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:31 AM

The middle flaps may be free floating with angle limitations so the slots mesh's well with the Trailing edge of the main element and the leading edge of the last element. Hard to tell from the pics though.

#278 Monster Mash

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:21 AM

The middle flaps may be free floating with angle limitations so the slots mesh's well with the Trailing edge of the main element and the leading edge of the last element. Hard to tell from the pics though.



Not so sure you'd want all three elements in trail

#279 CrushDigital

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:26 AM

Or TPT


I've been hearing a lot of buzz from a lot of places on the idea of TPT for the wing skins. One things for certain, with a solid skin, falling through the wing gets a bit more dicey.

#280 Xlot

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:13 AM

CNN videos on FV

#281 us772

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:13 PM


The middle flaps may be free floating with angle limitations so the slots mesh's well with the Trailing edge of the main element and the leading edge of the last element. Hard to tell from the pics though.



Not so sure you'd want all three elements in trail


They aren't in trail as long as the last element is angled. The free floating middle element has its pivot points well forward on the element. That makes it pivot and open up the slots via wind pressure. That allows the middle element to be self tacking. A buddy of mine did the same thing in the photo below. It was a very powerful wing.

#282 us772

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

In this version he made it so the flap elements angles doubled . So If you angled the last element at 20 degrees the middle one would be angle at 10 degrees.

Attached Files



#283 ~Stingray~

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:37 PM

CNN videos on FV


Good link. The CNN videos are worth a thread instead of being buried so deep here... any takers?

edit: all or part of the three episodes is on YT at here



#284 Xlot

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

^^

30,000 man-hrs for the wing huh? GD's not much of a whiner then ..

@us772: yes, but in both cases the intermediate flap has a visibly rounded, "airfoil" shape - whereas here it looks flat, just like the trailing edge of the lead element would.

#285 GauchoGreg

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:12 PM

^^

30,000 man-hrs for the wing huh? GD's not much of a whiner then ..


And yet, they COULD have used the stock North option. Not saying that it would have been, necessarily equivalent, but Grant's whining was that they HAD to spend what they did because of the boats, rather than the competition. If ETNZ believes they have to keep up, at least reasonably close, to the spending of Oracle & Artemis to win, then they would have had to piss absurd amounts of money away on much smaller, simpler boats, too, as Oracle and Artemis would still be doing so.

#286 Mariner

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:03 PM


CNN videos on FV


Good link. The CNN videos are worth a thread instead of being buried so deep here... any takers?

edit: all or part of the three episodes is on YT at here




What a frigging dud that TH is... boy and a happy sounding wife too eh? jeeez. PC must have some incredible faith in his sailing to keep him on the team cuz it sure aint his personality.

#287 SW Sailor

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:08 PM

What a frigging dud that TH is... boy and a happy sounding wife too eh? jeeez. PC must have some incredible faith in his sailing to keep him on the team cuz it sure aint his personality.


He's a pretty accomplished sailor, not a talk show host.

Now that they have two boat racing I'd think they'll be stronger in Naples.

#288 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:24 PM

TH seems as nice at home as on his boat...

#289 us772

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:35 PM

^^

30,000 man-hrs for the wing huh? GD's not much of a whiner then ..

@us772: yes, but in both cases the intermediate flap has a visibly rounded, "airfoil" shape - whereas here it looks flat, just like the trailing edge of the lead element would.



after looking at the last pic on post #248 I think you are right. I'm surprised they used such a small flap %. Maybe with the bay winds not much is needed?

#290 maxmini

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:41 PM

TH seems as nice at home as on his boat...


Can you imagine what a joy he is to be around when he comes home from getting his butt kicked in a regatta? I can see the headlines now down the road about ten years . " retired sailor missing , family suspected , news at 11 ".

#291 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:56 PM


TH seems as nice at home as on his boat...


Can you imagine what a joy he is to be around when he comes home from getting his butt kicked in a regatta? I can see the headlines now down the road about ten years . " retired sailor missing , family suspected , news at 11 ".

His wife must be kneeling in front of the TV set at each race, praying that he does not loose.
I would not embark him as a crew, speak of crewing for this happy face.

#292 maxmini

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:02 PM



TH seems as nice at home as on his boat...


Can you imagine what a joy he is to be around when he comes home from getting his butt kicked in a regatta? I can see the headlines now down the road about ten years . " retired sailor missing , family suspected , news at 11 ".

His wife must be kneeling in front of the TV set at each race, praying that he does not loose.
I would not embark him as a crew, speak of crewing for this happy face.


I will not sail for a screamer no matter how good he is. A loud boat is rarely a winning boat. I would venture to say he will never do a Volvo Race. At the conclusion of the first legg when the boat pulls into port without TH on board and the crew is asked what happened the group answer would be, " I don't know I guess he must have fallen in ". Remember the hissy fit he threw in Plymouth ? What a little bitch.

#293 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:15 PM

In fact I would enjoy to see him crewing for Olivier de Kersauzon, pretty much the same character and.... violent.
Some describe him, when he was young in the Pacific,breaking wooden sticks on his crew. He was behind me in a restaurant a few months ago, well, not the kind of guy you want to interrupt during dinner.

#294 johnmoon

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:57 PM

In the new CNN Mainsail video, Cayard sure did have a lot of confidence in Juan and Terry. I think they are accomplished in respective niche (keelboats) but a in multichull AC, they are a huge risk.
TT seems to have bought into PC's BS as well.
Juan sure looked stressed in the video. Probably hitting the ganj more thtn usual. I agree with Mr. Clean, Artemis is on a flyer to the corner. Launching the big wing is a good move but compared to ETNZ, which is actually testing wings side by side on cats, it's will have limited benefit. The major benefit is to keep TH from crapping his pants when they put it on the 72. They have one multihull guy out of the whole bunch - Santiago Lange....
On the show, the way PC defined Juan K was that he was a "genius" and that Terry "hated to lose more than anybody." Is that how you pick the key players for an AC campaign?
I rate them a very distant third behind OR and ETNZ. And it didn't have to be - TT has the money....

Artemis = Arrogance




#295 cantp1

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:15 PM

Can you imagine what a joy he is to be around when he comes home from getting his butt kicked in a regatta? I can see the headlines now down the road about ten years . " retired sailor missing , family suspected , news at 11 ".


+1

#296 Xlot

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:02 PM



It would seem flaps are solid skinned.



I wondered how long it would take someone to note that - what sort of very thin carbon do you suppose that is? :) :)




I would presume it is the readily commercially available "Spread Tow" Technology - used more and more in Aerospace composites. Nothing exclusive about it.

http://shop.r-g.de/e...-80-g/m-HT.html

CM


I wasn't aware of "generic" alternatives to TPT being available - although at least the link product not being prepreg would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? But mainly I do not see how for this application one can escape sandwich construction at muh higher unit weight. To say nothing of mold and repair cost ..

#297 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:05 PM

They have one multihull guy out of the whole bunch - Santiago Lange....

IMO, he is their best asset, excellent T sailor.

#298 sunseeker

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:47 PM


They have one multihull guy out of the whole bunch - Santiago Lange....

IMO, he is their best asset, excellent T sailor.


Uh, no, the best asset of Artemis is Tornquist's unlimited checkbook and Cayard's proven ability to pry a couple of hundred million from billionaires.

#299 ~Stingray~

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:47 PM

The three part series posted at AC.com, FV and elsewhere is good in part for some views of the wing base.

#300 SW Sailor

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 05:29 AM



They have one multihull guy out of the whole bunch - Santiago Lange....

IMO, he is their best asset, excellent T sailor.


Uh, no, the best asset of Artemis is Tornquist's unlimited checkbook and Cayard's proven ability to pry a couple of hundred million from billionaires.

You make it sound like it's an AC campaign.




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