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#601 GauchoGreg

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:18 PM



Cool... AC coming to Alameda! link


So while the Swedes invade SF Bay, the SF Bay based team bail out and invade Northland, NZ.

At least you Bay folks will get to see one team training early next year even if it isn't your own team.


So true. Maybe Artemis is the real Team USA.



Which team has an American running the program and an American skipper?

#602 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:38 PM

Uh-Oh!
from an email, and probably posted elsewhere:
--

TEAM STATEMENT
25 May 2012

AC72 wing damaged during training

Artemis Racing is the first Competitor for the 34th America’s Cup to have launched and sailed with a full size AC72 wing using a modified trimaran.

While training off Valencia today, Artemis Racing’s AC72 wing suffered significant damage. No one was injured.

The team has been sailing with the AC72 wing since 15 March and has gained valuable knowledge about the performance, structure and handling of an AC72 wing.

The wing and boat are back at the Artemis Racing compound where the team is assessing the damage.

“The America’s Cup is about technology and pushing the boundaries. Artemis Racing was the first team to build and sail with an AC72 wing, so it's logical that we were the first to experience a setback. I am confident that we will be stronger for this,” said Paul Cayard, CEO of Artemis Racing.

--

#603 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:40 PM

At Artemis FB

Artemis is the first AC team to build and sail with an AC72 wing, but unfortunately the wing was severely damaged this afternoon during training in Valencia



#604 valenciasailing

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:44 PM

I hope to get photos tomorrow (Saturday) morning. It's 9pm now in Valencia. It's funny that I went by the Artemis base on Thursday afternoon but there was nothing to report... I thought they were taking a break before Newport....

#605 valenciasailing

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:10 PM

Conditions were quite benign today in Valencia, at least off the Malvarosa beach. Lots of sunshine, lots of people on the beach, hardly any waves and light breezes. They must have gone further north and offshore

#606 ~Stingray~

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

'significant', 'severely damaged' - thank God 'No one was injured.'

That wing is frikkin' huge.. wonder if it actually came down??

#607 Monster Mash

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:29 PM

Structural failure or pitchpole?

#608 nav

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:51 PM

Structural failure or pitchpole?


A dockside handling error is also always a possibility - though it doesn't sound like it in this case.

I reckon the whole crew fell through!Posted Image

Posted Image



or this...
Posted Image

Bummer!

#609 Dyneema_forever

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:04 PM

Dyneema wings?

#610 Scarecrow

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:02 AM

This is what makes the Tri such a good idea. They can sort out wing issues without eating into their AC72 allowed testing time.

#611 Xlot

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:16 AM

Why am I not surprised?

#612 eric e

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:25 AM

they may have parked the boat to eat lunch

and got blown over backwards

like in aucklandPosted Image

#613 SW Sailor

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:35 AM

Why am I not surprised?


Probably as surprised as those that criticized him before he started cleaning up in match racing Posted Image

#614 eric e

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:57 AM

this much bigger than a ac45 wing

Attached Files



#615 maxmini

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 05:55 AM


Why am I not surprised?


Probably as surprised as those that criticized him before he started cleaning up in match racing Posted Image


He stops screaming at his crew like a little bitch and see how well he does ? Now let's see how long he can mind his manners :lol:

#616 SW Sailor

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 07:01 AM



Why am I not surprised?


Probably as surprised as those that criticized him before he started cleaning up in match racing Posted Image


He stops screaming at his crew like a little bitch and see how well he does ? Now let's see how long he can mind his manners :lol:

While we're at it do you want him to tie one hand behind his back and serve sushi to the crew while racing too ?

He's winning match racing, give him a frigging break instead of being a buthead. Maybe more skippers should adopt his style.





#617 maxmini

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 07:15 AM




Why am I not surprised?


Probably as surprised as those that criticized him before he started cleaning up in match racing Posted Image


He stops screaming at his crew like a little bitch and see how well he does ? Now let's see how long he can mind his manners :lol:

While we're at it do you want him to tie one hand behind his back and serve sushi to the crew while racing too ?

He's winning match racing, give him a frigging break instead of being a buthead. Maybe more skippers should adopt his style.


He yells and screams and he crashes his boat . He treats his crew with respect , stops screaming and he wins . Someone got in his ear big time , I heard him say please :D

If more skippers adopt his " style " less people with sail !

#618 Xlot

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 07:36 AM

Nothing to do with Terry this time around, it's the wretched boat Rule ..

#619 thetruth

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:34 AM

Nothing to do with Terry? The guy is a fucking lemon. None of these new guys are faster? And Terry had such a great match racing career didn't he? Why does anyone think this guy is good?





Nothing to do with Terry this time around, it's the wretched boat Rule ..



#620 thetruth

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:36 AM

Will one of his fans please list some of his achievements other than the De Vos bullshit

#621 thetruth

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:04 AM

And be a boring wanker? Why not get Ainslie, Outteridge, Murdoch, Burling? Oh thats right SW you do not know who these people are. And Hutchy boy has such a HUGE background in match racing dosen't he?






Why am I not surprised?


Probably as surprised as those that criticized him before he started cleaning up in match racing Posted Image


He stops screaming at his crew like a little bitch and see how well he does ? Now let's see how long he can mind his manners :lol:

While we're at it do you want him to tie one hand behind his back and serve sushi to the crew while racing too ?

He's winning match racing, give him a frigging break instead of being a buthead. Maybe more skippers should adopt his style.






#622 J-BIRD

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 04:20 PM

'significant', 'severely damaged' - thank God 'No one was injured.'

That wing is frikkin' huge.. wonder if it actually came down??




Yes, It buckled while sailing, not a lot of breeze. Landed on the beam in 3-4 pieces all of which were recovered.
I doubt it will be repaired.

#623 ~HHN92~

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 04:28 PM


'significant', 'severely damaged' - thank God 'No one was injured.'

That wing is frikkin' huge.. wonder if it actually came down??




Yes, It buckled while sailing, not a lot of breeze. Landed on the beam in 3-4 pieces all of which were recovered.
I doubt it will be repaired.


Wow, quite a setback, but maybe a lesson or two that will pay dividends later.

#624 ~Stingray~

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 04:44 PM

^ Thank you

#625 dogwatch

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 04:45 PM

Two interesting remarks in Seahorse.

Cayard (before the incident above) remarks on the fragility of the wings, that they spend more time being fixed than being sailed and "I doubt these wings will ever be capable of sailing every day in the harsh conditions of SF Bay".

I'm no fan at all of the reaching start. Hutchison describes it as "somewhat random" and uses the word "randomness" twice in the paragraphs that follow. Something that will be no surprise at all to those here who have experience of helming starts in competitive fleets.

#626 Grant_The_D Dalton

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:11 PM

Not good for an indifferent challenge. They are launching AC72 in July so I assume they have another wing to use with it, otherwise PC better get thinking!

#627 SimonN

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:21 PM

IMO, Artemis cannot be too unhappy They got their wing early, did a reasonable amount of testing and have now found the breaking point. All the other teams must now have pretty serious concerns - have they got their engineering right? The best bit is that they had the failure well away from their AC72 while the others must all be wondering what will happen if their wing comes down on their AC72 and does serious damage. The only down side for Srtemis would be if they don't have another wing ready in time to launch their AC72

#628 ~Stingray~

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

Does the fact it got destroyed mean these two sections do not count against the six you are allowed to build? Or, are they still limited to building a max of four more sections?

Iirc this wing took them six months and 35,000 hours. Must be quite the setback unless, as suggested above, they already have another wing well under way.

#629 SimonN

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:29 PM

My take is that it is part of the "6". Despite reports above, I would bet they find a way to use the broken parts so that they don't lose any of the 6. I cannot be bothered tyo look it up but I wonder what constitutes a repair vs a new section.

#630 maxmini

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:35 PM

IMO, Artemis cannot be too unhappy They got their wing early, did a reasonable amount of testing and have now found the breaking point. All the other teams must now have pretty serious concerns - have they got their engineering right? The best bit is that they had the failure well away from their AC72 while the others must all be wondering what will happen if their wing comes down on their AC72 and does serious damage. The only down side for Srtemis would be if they don't have another wing ready in time to launch their AC72


I think they might be surprised that the breaking point on their particular design came so low on the stress table . From the reports things went bad in less than 1/3 of what they will most likely average in SF. Back to the drawing board in a big way .

#631 Grant_The_D Dalton

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:50 PM

Im thinking the San Fran winds and chop will pose a serious threat to everyone's (But Oracle) wing's... Artemis were smart to get sailing with the wing first but if the had no contingency for a broken wing to launch 72 with thats a bit amateurish. I assume they still have the mould and can repair/rebuild (rules??) elements as necessary if they have the man-power, and will prb delay wing 2 if so, heard the wing brok in two and they are luck no one was hurt and they could retrieve it from the water or whatever.
Worst case... 72 platform ready in July and have to wait for wing 2, dont know how long that is or the implications but not good in any case...
As said before though THutch is cleaning up in match racing etc and they have 2 45's and have sailed the ORMA for a few months, so would the sailing they had with the 1st wing compensate the delay for the sailing in an actual 72?

#632 nav

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:18 PM

Im thinking the San Fran winds and chop will pose a serious threat to everyone's (But Oracle) wing's... Artemis were smart to get sailing with the wing first but if the had no contingency for a broken wing to launch 72 with thats a bit amateurish. I assume they still have the mould and can repair/rebuild (rules??) elements as necessary if they have the man-power, and will prb delay wing 2 if so, heard the wing brok in two and they are luck no one was hurt and they could retrieve it from the water or whatever.
Worst case... 72 platform ready in July and have to wait for wing 2, dont know how long that is or the implications but not good in any case...
As said before though THutch is cleaning up in match racing etc and they have 2 45's and have sailed the ORMA for a few months, so would the sailing they had with the 1st wing compensate the delay for the sailing in an actual 72?


There is an 'earliest launch' date but no penalty for launching later. That, plus the sailing-days-limit, means a delay in stepping a wing is not necessarily a disadvantage.

Back to the drawing board boys.....
Posted Image

(...although material or construction issues could also be factors)

#633 Monster Mash

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:20 PM

Anyone know if the Artemis wing was hard or soft skinned?

#634 nav

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:24 PM

Anyone know if the Artemis wing was hard or soft skinned?


What do you reckon?
Posted Image

Posted Image




#635 kiwi_jon

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:39 PM

So is this the result of another Future Fibre rigging failure?

#636 Grant_The_D Dalton

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:05 PM

Who knows!


But for sure its a unwanted delay in sailing a 'proper' 72, I guess they will scrap the wing and wait for the second wing, that's what's been planned and material labour etc. sorted out.
Cant wait to see the boats, should be a nice mix in designs / philosophies!

#637 J-BIRD

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:36 PM

So is this the result of another Future Fibre rigging failure?


No

#638 ~Stingray~

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:09 PM

J, Is it too early to know the sequence? Hopefully it is on film for them? Sensors?

#639 GauchoGreg

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:28 PM

Cayard (before the incident above) remarks on the fragility of the wings, that they spend more time being fixed than being sailed and "I doubt these wings will ever be capable of sailing every day in the harsh conditions of SF Bay".



OK, this is interesting. This is also how you could see a team like Energy do well. If these teams go the route of ultimate performance and screw up with a design/construction that is not stable/durable, and a team like Energy goes another route, of more stability and durability, and field a crew that is damned good (as they are showing in the ACWS), I can see the situation where they do well.

Now, back to Artemis, if they know they are going to be sailing in SFO, why do they have to design a wing that is not more robust, less extreme, etc.? I forget the details of the rule, but does the wing have to be a minimum size? Seems that the fragility in this case may have been optional, right?

#640 eric e

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 12:33 AM

presumably

like alinghi's failures

we won't be getting any pics of this clusterfuck

confetti raining down on the deck after a light wind failure!

the only they are going to learn from that

is they know next to nothing

wonder if there will now be a rush to buy the oracle basic wing design

they obviously need to look closer at that

#641 KiwiJoker

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:18 AM

PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out

#642 Basiliscus

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:36 AM

...I forget the details of the rule, but does the wing have to be a minimum size? ...


The wing area has to be between 250 and 255 sq m, so the size is constrained and the shape is constrained by the shaded area of the template on the right:
Posted Image
(The smaller wing on the left has been eliminated from the design rule.)

There is also a minimum weight of 1325 kg and a minimum height of the center of gravity of 17 m above the base. These restrictions help keep the wing from being built ridiculously light. Still, it's not trivial to build a wing to the minimum weight.

#643 SimonN

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:29 AM

While I believe that this gives Artemis an advantage compared with other challengers, it does highlight what a big advantage Oracle has. To start with, they have the data and construction information from Dz and then they have the same from the AC45's. It is simply so much easier to get a wing right when you have structural and load data from sized bigger and smaller, than starting from scratch. While we don't know what caused the failure, we do know that the wing guys and builders at Artemis aren't totally stupid! You have to thyink that Dalts will be saying a few prayers that his guys have got it right.

The other thing that we are likely to see now is teams working their wings up really slowly. You wouldn't want to take it out in SF conditions on day 1! I think this will have reprecussions for all teams as they will need to allow time in their schedule and contingency for problems. This won't help teams late to the game who might only get one shot at getting it right. Surely everybody else must feel a bit behind the curve now. And wiyh the increased perception of the risk of a 1300kgs wing falling down and damaging your nice new AC72, I think there will be a number of people in every team having sleepless nights for a while. And some of us sail to relax!!!

#644 maxmini

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:56 AM

Is it possible that this wing was designed as a light air test piece with no thoughts to SF conditions ? I can't think of any other reason why they would be so far off if it dropped that easily .

#645 dogwatch

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 04:32 AM


Cayard (before the incident above) remarks on the fragility of the wings, that they spend more time being fixed than being sailed and "I doubt these wings will ever be capable of sailing every day in the harsh conditions of SF Bay".



OK, this is interesting. This is also how you could see a team like Energy do well. If these teams go the route of ultimate performance and screw up with a design/construction that is not stable/durable, and a team like Energy goes another route, of more stability and durability, and field a crew that is damned good (as they are showing in the ACWS), I can see the situation where they do well.


But another way to view it is that the "commando raid" approach gives no time to work up a wing and learn its limitations. ET might have multi-hull gurus. It doesn't have particular expertise in wings.

#646 ~Stingray~

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 04:40 AM

Has there been any suggestion that it was wind conditions-related? What Pierre/VS remarked about calm conditions on the day certainly did not suggest it.

Could have been about anything, best we can tell so far.

#647 SimonN

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:53 AM

To go with all the speculation, I will throw in one other thought. What the conditions were might not be relevent. The real damage might have been done on a previous day but the failure only happened later.

#648 nav

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:06 PM

PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out


Nope, not allowed, AFAIK

Has there been any suggestion that it was wind conditions-related? What Pierre/VS remarked about calm conditions on the day certainly did not suggest it.

Could have been about anything, best we can tell so far.


Well it seems a little bird ^^# 637 that knows, says that it wasn't rigging failure - that's one possibility eliminated at least.

#649 Rennmaus

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:11 PM


PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out


Nope, not allowed, AFAIK
(...)

Why not allowed? It wasn't in competition. Are there also training/testing restrictions in place?

#650 SW Sailor

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:18 PM



PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out


Nope, not allowed, AFAIK
(...)

Why not allowed? It wasn't in competition. Are there also training/testing restrictions in place?

I don't think so. They can do as they please on the tri.

#651 nav

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:07 PM




PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out


Nope, not allowed, AFAIK
(...)

Why not allowed? It wasn't in competition. Are there also training/testing restrictions in place?

I don't think so. They can do as they please on the tri.


Ok you are right, they can do what they want on the Tri. BUT a computer controlled Tri doesn't make much of a trial horse for a manual control Cat now does it?

#652 Rennmaus

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:08 PM

^
True.

#653 ~HHN92~

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:36 PM

But it may tell you some things you would like to know...................................

#654 maxmini

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:01 AM

But it may tell you some things you would like to know...................................


When to duck ?

#655 eric e

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:01 AM

like heavy hydraulics

on thin carbon webs

might cause catastrophic failure?

true

#656 ~HHN92~

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:13 AM


But it may tell you some things you would like to know...................................


When to duck ?


Well..........that's one possibility

I am listnening to The Who's 'Who's Next'. Maybe appropriate?

Too much relaxation at this time of the day, steaks off the grill waiting on the wife to finish the final preparations. Too much idle time..........................................

#657 ~HHN92~

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:16 AM

Blazing Saddles:

"Today we'll be reading from the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and....................................Duck!

Bang.

I'm sorry, too many at this hour...............................

#658 maxmini

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:19 AM

Blazing Saddles:

"Today we'll be reading from the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and....................................Duck!

Bang.

I'm sorry, too many at this hour...............................


Great movie . I think a classic line from Animal House may fit as well :

" Holy Shit a "

Bluto Bultarski RIP

#659 ~HHN92~

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:23 AM


Blazing Saddles:

"Today we'll be reading from the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and....................................Duck!

Bang.

I'm sorry, too many at this hour...............................


Great movie . I think a classic line from Animal House may fit as well :

" Holy Shit a "

Bluto Bultarski RIP


Touche'

What this forum needs more of...............................

#660 KiwiJoker

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:48 AM


PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out


Nope, not allowed, AFAIK


Thanks for the correction. Went back and read the AC72 rule and all public interpretations. Control of the wing, soft sails, rudders, etc is manual.

So how does that square with PC's comments to SAIL magazine about a CAN-bus to actuate hydraulic valves"

"the current Artemis wing design, where 38 embedded hydraulic cylinders are activated electronically via a controlled area network (CAN) bus, which saves the weight of running hydraulic piping to each cylinder, or double wires to each electrovalve. This means push-button control for the trimmers"

#661 SW Sailor

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:59 AM





PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out


Nope, not allowed, AFAIK
(...)

Why not allowed? It wasn't in competition. Are there also training/testing restrictions in place?

I don't think so. They can do as they please on the tri.


Ok you are right, they can do what they want on the Tri. BUT a computer controlled Tri doesn't make much of a trial horse for a manual control Cat now does it?


I was only answering the question as to if they could. Whether it makes sense or not is another matter. I have no idea as to if it was computer or manually controlled, but would think they'd want something close to what they will use on the 72.

#662 dumper

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:03 AM

Anyone know if the Artemis wing was hard or soft skinned?


hard i reckon

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#663 eric e

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:24 PM

well the black bit anyway as his reflection looks to have no shrink-wrap distortion

but i'd think the grey lines running back are carbon ribs as seen through the white film

#664 nav

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:29 PM



PC is pretty good a writing about his successes and failures. Once they've had an opportunity to review what went wrong and document a path going forward I'm sure we'll hear something.

I haven't followed the Artemis wing all that closely. Didn't PC talk about hydraulic controls, powered by continuous grinding and actuated electromechanicallly? Gave me the shivers thinking about the possibilities. Anyway, could have been simple handling error, materials failure or the computer took over. Can't wait to find out


Nope, not allowed, AFAIK


Thanks for the correction. Went back and read the AC72 rule and all public interpretations. Control of the wing, soft sails, rudders, etc is manual.

So how does that square with PC's comments to SAIL magazine about a CAN-bus to actuate hydraulic valves"

"the current Artemis wing design, where 38 embedded hydraulic cylinders are activated electronically via a controlled area network (CAN) bus, which saves the weight of running hydraulic piping to each cylinder, or double wires to each electrovalve. This means push-button control for the trimmers"



Well i haven't read the rule line by line recently but it looks to me as if you have answered your own question. I.e. Even if gizmos replace string, the trimmer has to be the smartest thing in the circuit!

#665 nav

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:14 PM


Anyone know if the Artemis wing was hard or soft skinned?


hard i reckon


50/50 in that shot ^^^ - the white is all fabric, the black is the spar, which is usually pretty 'rigid' - though maybe not in this casePosted Image

Posted Image??

#666 maxmini

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:26 PM

So going on five days now since the wing came tumbling down and not a photo, video , email,tweet ,hologram or anything at all. I thought this was the face book gen ? The quieter it is the bigger the issue .

#667 nav

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:35 PM

So going on five days now since the wing came tumbling down and not a photo, video , email,tweet ,hologram or anything at all. I thought this was the face book gen ? The quieter it is the bigger the issue .


Well there's this from the 25th, I guess there was a tweet to go with it.

http://www.americasc...12/5/AC72-wing/

it's been quoted here already AFAIK.

I guess you mean something newer than that? There have been a few pretty authoritative sounding posts by J-Bird, like this...


'significant', 'severely damaged' - thank God 'No one was injured.'

That wing is frikkin' huge.. wonder if it actually came down??




Yes, It buckled while sailing, not a lot of breeze. Landed on the beam in 3-4 pieces all of which were recovered.
I doubt it will be repaired.


For the full 'AIR ACCIDENT REPORT' - you'll have to be wait a little longer

#668 Xlot

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:41 PM

^^

Good idea! Why don't you come over to Sagunto and claim to be the NTSB inspector, I'll be your colleague from Brussels ..

#669 nav

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:59 PM

^^

Good idea! Why don't you come over to Sagunto and claim to be the NTSB inspector, I'll be your colleague from Brussels ..


'Guten Tag. Vee arr ear to inspekt zee ving!'

#670 Tony-F18

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:13 PM

Yeah now they know what those leftover nuts and bolts where for!
Told em not to hire those guys those from IKEA...

#671 maxmini

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:54 PM

The j-bird post was the most revealing so far but nothing " official " as yet . Time will tell , or not .

#672 Xlot

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 07:43 PM

Two interesting remarks in Seahorse.

Cayard (before the incident above) remarks on the fragility of the wings ...


Must be the "July" issue - oddly enough, haven't yet received the email notification.

But < OT alert > the June issue carries an informative, 3-page piece on weight being the most important factor by far in multihull drag. Written by Alex Kozloff of Aquarius C-cats fame, and towing tests were done quite literally via an instrumented truck running the length of the Cabrillo Beach half-mile pier.
Had the great pleasure of meeting Alex during my fact-finding trip before we embarked on our Miss Lancia LAC challenge, and was a guest in his Orange County home, exotic water bed included. Barely avoided my customary gaffe when I realized the pretty girl was not his daughter. A few months later when we met again in the LIS she was down with epoxy allergy as a consequence of building Carbon Copy (the last of the Aquariuses): needless to say, that's something I've never managed to emulate in my dealings with the female species ..

#673 ~Stingray~

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:43 PM

^ Sorry about the quality of these pics and the further drift.

Can anyone tell what model Hobie this is?
http://twitpic.com/9qqnpy/full
http://twitpic.com/9qqo4b
http://twitpic.com/9qqque

In a 'stormy' 10 knots or so of wind it drags around very slowly with four teens on board; a guy finally solo'd it but it's still no speed demon despite sailing conditions appearing near-perfect.

May have to go steal the dang thing..

#674 eric e

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:51 PM

getaway

16' rotomolded plastic hulls with built in coolers

furling jib and bench seats

no race machine but loads up well with 4 adults for a slow evening beer cruise

or 6 kids

#675 ~Stingray~

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:28 PM

^ Thanx. Does it even have a boom?

#676 eric e

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:34 PM

boomless

and here's an old pic of the artemis wing

i reckon from the way the light falls on that flap with the control arms

that it's also solid skinned

or was...

Attached File  Artemis_Orma_close.jpg   144.45K   125 downloads




#677 ~Stingray~

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:38 PM

boomless

thnx again, Johnny Depp owns the place and so probably the boat; he must be proud of it ;) think I'll pass

#678 ~HHN92~

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:16 AM

boomless

and here's an old pic of the artemis wing

i reckon from the way the light falls on that flap with the control arms

that it's also solid skinned

or was...

Attached File  Artemis_Orma_close.jpg   144.45K   125 downloads




Maybe the skin is structural, with less framing inside?

#679 eric e

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:38 AM


and here's an old pic of the artemis wing

i reckon from the way the light falls on that flap with the control arms

that it's also solid skinned

or was...

Attached File  Artemis_Orma_close.jpg   144.45K   125 downloads


Maybe the skin is structural, with less framing inside?


i'm trying to think of how a light wind failure could cause the wing to fall in 4 large pieces

we're kind of talking folding in the middle due to attachement issues between upper and lower sections and then flaps splitting off...

or maybe just a busted windward lower side-stay causing the wing tyo break in the middle

and then all the other stays pulling the wing apart as it came down

what if this let go?

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#680 eric e

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:12 AM

the nz orma, vodofone / geant

dropped and broke it's carbon mast a couple of years ago when a near new sidestay let go at the swage ..

or maybe the bonding to the hull let go as the rig was too much?

didn't DZ drop the M3 mast when a stay went go and forced their hand to go for the wing?

#681 nav

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 06:23 PM

........
........
what if this let go?


Ok I have no idea who he is, but this J-Bird dude sounds like he has the scoop and he says...


So is this the result of another Future Fibre rigging failure?


No


He hasn't made many posts but sounds like he might be a rigger or builder??
I wonder if he wants to say how he knows what's going on and/or give us some more info on the failure?

#682 maxmini

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:02 PM

Well its been over a week since we heard about the wing falling and no details at all , perhaps it didn't really happen ?

#683 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:11 PM

Interview with David Brooke, Artemis - nothing about the damage

http://www.americasc...T-DAVID-BROOKE/

#684 maxmini

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:31 PM

Interview with David Brooke, Artemis - nothing about the damage

http://www.americascup.com/en/Teams/Artemis-Racing/Latest/Features/2012/MEET-DAVID-BROOKE/


And after such a hard grilling by the journalist I think we can all concur " it never happened ". :P

#685 dogwatch

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:48 PM

Interview with David Brooke, Artemis - nothing about the damage


Never mind, we get to know his favourite food.

#686 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:44 PM

It's possible there's been mention of the broken wing in the RC44 material from Austria (was it?) last week. Artemis won the regatta, TT and possibly PC sailed in it. Just a guess, in case anyone wants to go on a treasure hunt.

Yes, this would have been a good interview for that question..

#687 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 06:18 PM

^ Google-searched RC44.com for wing and for AC72 but it produced no recent text results.

#688 SW Sailor

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:11 AM

Waterfront cities around the East Bay are busy trying to lure America's Cup teams, but so far Alameda has the most wind in its sails.

The island city landed one of the biggest America's Cup teams, Artemis Racing from the Royal Swedish Yacht Club, and is mobilizing to attract more.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.co...L#ixzz1wtP9LYuS

#689 Xlot

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:59 AM

At long last, PC's version at VS. Onya, Pierre :)

#690 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:02 PM

+1

Paul Cayard talks to VSail.info about the AC72 wing incident and the Artemis Racing campaign
Posted on 05 June 2012 by Valencia Sailing

We caught up with the CEO of Artemis Racing before a full day of AC45 training in Valencia and talked about the unfortunate incident with the AC72 wing and the impact it will have on the Swedish team’s America’s Cup campaign.

http://www.vsail.inf...acing-campaign/

#691 seis

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:02 PM

http://www.vsail.inf...acing-campaign/

...

VSail.info: I heard from one source that the wing broke in three-four pieces. Is that correct?

Paul Cayard: That's not accurate, the wing is broken in one place. It's not broken in three-four pieces. We salvaged 100% of it and as I said, it was quite fortunate, the wing didn't even go on the water, it landed all on the boat. So, we just hooked up the bow tow and towed back to the dock.

VSail.info: What were the boat and crew doing in the precise moment of the incident? Were they maneuvering when the wing came crashing down?

Paul Cayard: No, they were just reaching along, steady state, it was not in the middle of a tack or gybe.

VSail.info: I suppose you are currently investigating what caused the failure and the breakage.

Paul Cayard: Yes, we are doing our investigation to learn from this, to learn why it broke. Our investigation is both internal and external. We had two external consultants come and do various tests, basically a forensic study of what happened. Obviously, whenever you have something like that happen there was a series of minor failures and then a large failure. It wasn't a rigging failure or anything like that, the structure itself failed.
We are investigating so that we can learn. We are right at the outset of building our second wing right now, which is about to get going. Fortunately, we hadn't started that and we will be able to incorporate what we are learning now, not only from that incident but we have been sailing since March 15th with the wing. We have been fortunate to learn a lot of things about the wing which we will incorporate into our second wing.

VSail.info: Is the second wing, similarly to the first one, being built at Future Fibres?

Paul Cayard: I can't comment on that. I can't tell you what is going on exactly with that. As I said, we are learning from the first wing and, of course, we have to repair it to get sailing again. It is fair to say it is a major damage and we will not be sailing our AC72, as planned, on July 1st, unfortunately. We were all set to do that and this is a bit of a setback but, hopefully, in September or October we will be able to get sailing with our AC72 yacht.

VSail.info: So, if I understand well, your initial assessment, at least right now, is that you will be able to repair the broken wing.

Paul Cayard: Yes, we absolutely have to. We are only allowed to have three wings, so we have to repair it and keep it as part of our inventory. We are right now deciding exactly what the methodology is going to be but are going to repair it as fast as we can. I'm pretty sure the AC72 will first sail with Wing 1 because it will take longer to build Wing 2. We hope to sail maybe around October with the AC72.
...

#692 Xlot

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:45 PM

This reminds me of innumerable "shortcuts" in plant construction lore, with similar disastrous consequences. A static load test on the bare spar would have been very easy to set up and would have taken up little time, for the life of me I cannot understand why they skipped it.

Posted Image

#693 eric e

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 01:50 PM

dynamic testing

is so much more fun





#694 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 01:55 PM

Perhaps they did static test it? The wing sailed for 3 months. My flat-out guess would be a very small air pocket or other deficiency in the fiber layup that over a lot of cycles just stretched enough to eventually cause failure. That they also had outside consultants brought in suggests it was non-obvious, so perhaps material-internal.

Whatever the cause, PC makes good sense in suggesting it's a lesson better learned earlier than later. The two big items here are the fact it can and will be repaired; and the impact to the AR72 launch date.

#695 eric e

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 01:57 PM

he says they HAVE TO repair it....

#696 maxmini

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 04:42 PM

he says they HAVE TO repair it....


Yes as it is one of the three allowed. I think they may have been hoping for some sort of rigging failure as that would have most likely been a little easier to figure out. Sounds like it is still not solved at this time.

#697 Monster Mash

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 04:53 PM


he says they HAVE TO repair it....


Yes as it is one of the three allowed. I think they may have been hoping for some sort of rigging failure as that would have most likely been a little easier to figure out. Sounds like it is still not solved at this time.


My always accurate source tells me that a team can only build 3 wings for thier AC72 but can build and test as many wings as they want if not specificly designed for an AC72.

#698 dogwatch

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 04:56 PM

Paul Cayard: The only thing I can tell you is that we filed an application. [Note: It is our understanding that according to a new rule, teams are not allowed to talk about cases and issues that are still under consideration by the jury. We weren't aware of the existence of such a rule and we, therefore, asked the question. It's obvious that if Artemis files for a clarification of the jury's decisions they must not feel comfortable wit them.]

Comments in italics by VS. Assuming this is true, ain't it remarkable how practically anything that might generate some controversy - and interest, passion and discussion - is being squashed? AC34 is strictly for shiny, happy people, apparently.

#699 maxmini

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:39 PM



he says they HAVE TO repair it....


Yes as it is one of the three allowed. I think they may have been hoping for some sort of rigging failure as that would have most likely been a little easier to figure out. Sounds like it is still not solved at this time.


My always accurate source tells me that a team can only build 3 wings for thier AC72 but can build and test as many wings as they want if not specificly designed for an AC72.


Well according to PC it is their first AC 72 wing and do to the current situation will delay their 72 launch .

#700 Monster Mash

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 06:00 PM

^
Read that also.

I'm stopping by ANAS today to try and pin down the location of Artemes's new base. Its one of two locations, the Bay Ship hanger or Hanger 41

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