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#701 Mariner

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 06:27 PM

LOVE IT...


Alameda leading race to host America's Cup teams
Carolyn Jones

San Francisco Chronicle June 5, 2012 04:00 AM Tuesday, June 5, 2012

Posted ImagePosted ImageLance Iversen / The Chronicle

Kame Richards (left) of the Alameda America's Cup committee visits with Guillaume Canivet of Canivet Construction inside the former naval plane hangar that will be home to Artemis Racing.

Waterfront cities around the East Bay are busy trying to lure America's Cup teams, but so far Alameda has the most wind in its sails.The island city landed one of the biggest America's Cup teams, Artemis Racing from the Royal Swedish Yacht Club, and is mobilizing to attract more.

"If you ask how many America's Cup teams do we want, the answer is, we want them all," said Kame Richards, owner of Pineapple Sails in Alameda. "San Francisco is a perfectly wonderful city, but ... Alameda is a perfect fit for this."

In late May, Artemis signed a one-year, $20,000-per-month lease, effective immediately, for a former airplane hangar at the old Naval Air Station. The hangar is spacious enough to house the monstrous 72-foot catamarans used in the race and is adjacent to Seaplane Lagoon, an easy 2.7-mile sail from San Francisco's Ferry Building.

Along with the boats, Artemis is bringing 70 families who will decamp to Alameda as well as fans and tourists for America's Cup World Series events leading up to the main race in September 2013.

No one's sure what the exact windfall will be for Alameda, but regionally the America's Cup is expected to bring in more than $1 billion, according to the Bay Area Council and America's Cup organizers.

That figure doesn't include the international exposure, which officials throughout the Bay Area hope will entice millions of future tourists.

Alameda is not done with its America's Cup. The city has room at the defunct Navy base for at least three other teams, and has one of the state's largest sailing communities lobbying in its favor.

The city has eight marinas and 3,400 sailboat slips, the second-largest conglomeration of sailboats in the state behind Marina Del Rey (Los Angeles County). It's also home to countless boatyards, maritime suppliers, sailmakers, engine shops, two ferry terminals and other nautical-related businesses.

Some of the city's most avid sailors and business owners sit on the city's America's Cup committee.

"We're even getting the landlubbers involved," said Christopher Seiwald, committee chair.

But Alameda has some competition. Richmond and Oakland are also vying for America's Cup teams and related businesses.


Deepwater access
Like Alameda, both cities have large vacant warehouses - at their respective commercial ports - and easy waterfront access. They also both have active sailing communities.

"We have a lot of space and good deepwater access to the bay," said Richmond City Councilman Tom Butt, adding that rents in Richmond are likely to be cheaper than those in Alameda or San Francisco.

America's Cup facilities would be at the Port of Richmond's Terminal One, which is currently vacant and adjacent to the Richmond Yacht Club, heart of the city's sailing community.

Another bonus is its proximity to affordable family housing at the nearby Marina Bay development, said Mark Howe, chair of the city's America's Cup committee.

"We're not San Francisco, but we have a great location and a tremendous sailing community," he said.

In Oakland, officials are trying to lure a team to a warehouse near Jack London Square, which is on the waterfront and likely has better freeway, airport and public transit access than any other potential America's Cup site in the Bay Area.

"San Francisco can't handle it all. It's going to take the entire region to host an event of this magnitude, and we are excited to be a part of it," said Samee Roberts, Oakland's marketing director.

In addition, Oakland is considering waterfront festivals along the estuary and Lake Merritt, viewing parties and promotion of its restaurant, hotel and cultural scene, which is among the most popular in the Bay Area.


Lively waterfront
Oakland also has a lively waterfront entertainment district at Jack London Square, with a slew of restaurants, parks, theaters and hotels as well as marinas.

But Alameda, with its vast, mostly vacant former base property and plethora of harbors, might be tough to beat.

"The America's Cup is one of the biggest sporting events in the world, and we are at ground zero," said Alameda Mayor Marie Gilmore. "Or at least 2.7 miles from it."

#702 Xlot

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 06:50 PM

I think they may have been hoping for some sort of rigging failure as that would have most likely been a little easier to figure out. Sounds like it is still not solved at this time.



An educated (??) guess is this was a construction QA/QC mistake rather than a design issue, because:

- with composites, that is the case 95% of the time

- chief structural designer Andrea Avaldi is nearly as good as his ETNZ counterpart Giovanni Belgrano

- openly declaring that outside consultants have been called in is only admissible if the problem's deemed to be external to the design team

So, I believe the reason for the failure has already been determined, and it's not something that should overly concern the competition. Rather, I'm surprised at the huge setback in terms of delay: it's like the defect affects the entire spar and they are constrained by the 30% weight replacement rule and cannot simply include new parts.

#703 Xlot

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:49 PM

The Fish's take now, for S-W

Now we can take some satisfaction from the data we have collected in the 12 days of sailing we have had, said Cayard.


The break has been across the main spar, around which the wing elements pivot
.....
No one has ever built one of these wings before, or exploited the possibilities their complexity affords. The C-class guys are using twist, and there is no doubt that twist is a speed-contributing factor of the wing rig. We will be among those who will have twist in our equation, maybe others won’t.


is PC talking about lead element twist??

#704 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:57 PM

^ A better read in many ways

#705 eric e

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:14 PM

What actually happened was that the wing snapped in two and the whole structure fell on to the boat – 'nothing got wet,

so it must have broken about the middle, which would be the classic break of an over-loaded, weak spar....if it's not design then poor assembly?

just above the green arrows there looks to be a join in the main spar, about the right place for a 2 part split where nothing gets wet
wrong bolts? loose nuts? forgot to beef up the carbon around the bolt heads and they simply worked their way through the laminate???

Attached File  Artemis_Orma_close.jpg   146.33K   54 downloads

Attached File  Artemis_Orma_sailing.jpg   78.93K   47 downloads

The set-back will probably be of four months duration

ouch!, from 1 july launch to 1 november....no summer sailing

'We had planned to launch our boat – the platform is ready here in Valencia – on July 1st, and we will be beaten to that punch


so their ac72 is finished and sitting in a shed
how frustrating, all the 72s will be launched and sailing, showing their design tricks
and artemis can't capitalize on being the last in the water
as their boat was first finished and gathering dust

No one has ever built one of these wings before, or exploited the possibilities their complexity affords.

oracle built a bigger wing for DZ and the C class guys have complex smaller wings
so i guess he means the most complex big wing...

Maybe we would have designed the wing differently if we had intended to race with it

what does this mean, no twist?
didn't they always intend to race with it?
otherwise why do they HAVE TO rebuild it
the fact it failed in only medium winds and light sea state could mean they don't learn much from it's failure at all...

#706 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:24 PM

X, my read on that is a 'Yes' - it has lead element twist. Can't see why else he would bring up the complexity.

I wonder how the rumor started that it broke into 4 pieces. Intentional, as a jab at Artemis? Or just rumor run amok? Curious. Fisher:
--

The amazing factor of America’s Cup stories is how exaggeration immerses them. The breaking of the AC-72 wing of Artemis that was being trialled on an ORMA 60 hull platform for example was retold to a degree that defied belief. No sooner had the wing folded than it was in four pieces and with that the rumour mill built so that everything that Artemis Racing had achieved was in the trash-can.

#707 maxmini

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:28 PM

X, my read on that is a 'Yes' - it has lead element twist. Can't see why else he would bring up the complexity.

I wonder how the rumor started that it broke into 4 pieces. Intentional, as a jab at Artemis? Or just rumor run amok? Curious.


Until we see photos the rumor could actually be it only broke in one spot.

#708 Monster Mash

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:32 PM

Here's Artemis's new home in Alameda. They are building what appears to be a sail loft floor in these pictures. approx 100'X250'

Attached Files



#709 Monster Mash

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:38 PM

More pics

Attached Files



#710 eric e

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:44 PM

J-bird, our mysterious euro based, native english speaking, pro-sailor, said it broke in 4

like had seen it or had received a first hand account before the censors kicked in

"Yes, It buckled while sailing, not a lot of breeze. Landed on the beam in 3-4 pieces all of which were recovered.
I doubt it will be repaired. "

said he doubted it would be repaired and later that it wasn't a rigging failure...

#711 eric e

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:47 PM


'significant', 'severely damaged' - thank God 'No one was injured.'

That wing is frikkin' huge.. wonder if it actually came down??




Yes, It buckled while sailing, not a lot of breeze. Landed on the beam in 3-4 pieces all of which were recovered.
I doubt it will be repaired.


here

#712 eric e

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:48 PM


So is this the result of another Future Fibre rigging failure?


No


here

#713 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:14 PM

Wouldn't surprise me if a flap or two came unhinged and got counted as pieces by someone's definition.

I complimented Fisher's perspective, it deserves it. But hats off to Pierre for getting the goods for us, and to PC for agreeing and for being so forthright. He doesn't mince words there in his answers - good interview by both.

#714 ~HHN92~

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 12:12 AM

Here's Artemis's new home in Alameda. They are building what appears to be a sail loft floor in these pictures. approx 100'X250'


I see they are using manufactured I-joists. Smart move, they are straight and will not warp like 2x lumber. They should have called me, seeing how I designed quite a few structures with those products. (well, back in the day)

edit: they should have pressure treated wood against that concrete floor, unless they placed a barrier underneath.

#715 eric e

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 12:23 AM

just to show

how carbon blows

what the crew saw below

after hearing the god almighty crack above

a few days ago

on the auckland - noumea race

Attached File  beau geste blew.jpg   30.89K   38 downloads

#716 dogwatch

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 04:43 AM

(BF said) The amazing factor of America's Cup stories is how exaggeration immerses them. The breaking of the AC-72 wing of Artemis that was being trialled on an ORMA 60 hull platform for example was retold to a degree that defied belief. No sooner had the wing folded than it was in four pieces and with that the rumour mill built so that everything that Artemis Racing had achieved was in the trash-can.


A big hmmmmm to the claim that there has been "exaggeration" that "defie(s) belief".

Paul Cayard: We are right now deciding exactly what the methodology is going to be but are going to repair it as fast as we can. I’m pretty sure the AC72 will first sail with Wing 1 because it will take longer to build Wing 2. We hope to sail maybe around October with the AC72.

In other words, it appears it is expected to take several months to repair, not a lot less than the time to build wing 2 from scratch.

#717 SW Sailor

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 04:50 AM

And speculation never runs rampant around here, we know that for sure.

#718 Tony-F18

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 05:05 AM

Do the wings have to be built in two pieces? What do the rules say about this?
If it broke at the top/bottom joint (which I assume it did) why not build it in one piece?
Will be harder to transport but not impossible.

#719 kiwi_jon

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:53 AM

^^^

AC72 Class Rule V1.1

10.3 Further to Protocol Article 29.6, the Wing Spar shall be capable of being disassembled into
two separate sections. The lower Wing Spar section shall be at least 18.000 m, and no
more than 19.900 m in length. For the purposes of this rule, fittings shall not be considered
part of the Wing Spar.



#720 eric e

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 10:21 AM

on further reflection

if the main-spar failed at the join

the lower section of the wing should have remained standing

as the lower stays attach just below the join...

so it may have more likely failed

just below the lower stays, inadequate carbon strength in the spar just below the stay area

or a lower spar stay mount pulled free..., inadequate carbon strength or bonding at the mount...

Attached File  ormawingbig.jpg   152.58K   31 downloads

#721 ncs

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:14 PM

Paul Cayard: We are right now deciding exactly what the methodology is going to be but are going to repair it as fast as we can. I’m pretty sure the AC72 will first sail with Wing 1 because it will take longer to build Wing 2. We hope to sail maybe around October with the AC72.

In other words, it appears it is expected to take several months to repair, not a lot less than the time to build wing 2 from scratch.

October???

A mid-2011 schedule had their first wing sailing by September 2011. First sail was mid-March 2012. They managed twelve days sailing in two and a half months before their wing collapsed in moderate conditions.

In retrospect, the sailable scale model development strategy (AC45, SL33) doesn't sound too bad after all. Time will tell.

#722 SimonN

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:02 PM


Paul Cayard: We are right now deciding exactly what the methodology is going to be but are going to repair it as fast as we can. I’m pretty sure the AC72 will first sail with Wing 1 because it will take longer to build Wing 2. We hope to sail maybe around October with the AC72.

In other words, it appears it is expected to take several months to repair, not a lot less than the time to build wing 2 from scratch.

October???

A mid-2011 schedule had their first wing sailing by September 2011. First sail was mid-March 2012. They managed twelve days sailing in two and a half months before their wing collapsed in moderate conditions.

In retrospect, the sailable scale model development strategy (AC45, SL33) doesn't sound too bad after all. Time will tell.

You seem to mhave forgotten that they have also been sailing with other, small wings. And the one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down. Imagine if ETNZ, LR or OR drop their first wing after 12 days sailing. They will be a lot further back than Artemis, who I believe dodged a huge bullet. I find it pretty amazing that they dropped the wing and, as far as we know, didn't damage the boat. I find it hard to believe that is the norm, and if any of the others drop their rigs they are, imo, likely to damage their AC72's.

Overall, it obviously isn't good for the Artemis program, but it would have been a lot wrose if they had waited for their AC72 before trying their first wing.

#723 Xlot

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:21 PM

And the one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down. Imagine if ETNZ, LR or OR drop their first wing after 12 days sailing. They will be a lot further back than Artemis, who I believe dodged a huge bullet.


Circumstantial evidence (outside consultants brought in, very long repair time, PC not confirming Future Fibres will be doing their second wing) points to a serious, generalized construction mistake. Lesson not directly applicable to other teams.

#724 Te Kooti

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:27 PM

one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down.




Hi mum, I wrapped you car around a lamp post.

But it's all good.

I learned that, in future, I should not send text messages while I drive.

So it's all positive.

#725 Te Kooti

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:30 PM

In retrospect, the sailable scale model development strategy (AC45, SL33) doesn't sound too bad after all. Time will tell.


When historians write-up this AC, this will be one of the big issues.

Full-size versus scaled-down versions of the wing.

Which was the best strategy?

It does sound like this breakage has put Artemis on a back foot.

And, to me, it further reinforces "breakage" as an issue in AC35.


#726 Xlot

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:33 PM

And, to me, it further reinforces "breakage" as an issue in AC35.


You going Ben Ainslie on us now? :lol:

#727 ~Stingray~

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:53 PM


And the one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down. Imagine if ETNZ, LR or OR drop their first wing after 12 days sailing. They will be a lot further back than Artemis, who I believe dodged a huge bullet.


Circumstantial evidence (outside consultants brought in, very long repair time, PC not confirming Future Fibres will be doing their second wing) points to a serious, generalized construction mistake. Lesson not directly applicable to other teams.

+1, my take on it too; other 'evidence' are PC's mentions of complication and (vs) the weight limits; that it's a good thing they did not already start W2 (using presumably the same layup/framing/bake process/etc).

That the 'repair' is going to take so long suggests a complete rebuild; which would I would guess bring up the definition, the distinction between, repair versus new, with the measurers.

He also suggests they have been experimenting with different things; possibly accounting for the only 12 days sailed since the March 15 launch.
--

TK, the question about wing frailty did get asked by VS; PC had a solid response, worth a re-read, they've sailed in 25 knots and 1m seas, even.

--
(on a phone)
Is Fisher's piece a commentary on the VS interview, or did he also hear PC - perhaps during a conf call? Iirc there are some quotes in BF's at SW that are not in even the updated VS interview, which may have been an aside for VS and done in addition to my imagined conf call?

No biggy, just curious if it struck anyone else that way too.

#728 ncs

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:17 PM

You seem to have forgotten that they have also been sailing with other, small wings.

Good point -- but only if their small wings tested new, critical subsystems that their big wings depend upon.

Can you share with us the valuable similarities between their small Tornado and big AC72 wings?

Differences in the respective control systems are obvious.

#729 SimonN

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 11:48 PM

Can you share with us the valuable similarities between their small Tornado and big AC72 wings?

Sorry, cannot share anything on this. I am fortunate enough to get "insider" info from a few people in a few teams and the guys are always very clear about what can and acnnot be shared. Surprisingly, I ahve been told numerous times that anything to do with design and testing mustn't be repeated! What i can say is that Santi and Adam have done a lot of hours on the T. I don't think it takes an special knowledge to believe that they wouldn't have done that just for fun. To have 2 of the key design team guys just playing with a wing for fun would seem to me to be a bit of a waste of time. I therefore think it is reasonable to assume that they have been doing a lot of testing and that there are valuable lessons that have been learnt.

#730 Dixie

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:56 AM

I expect that the exact nature of the failure may well be kept quiet too.

#731 ncs

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:41 AM

I therefore think it is reasonable to assume that they have been doing a lot of testing and that there are valuable lessons that have been learnt.

I agree, hence my previous point about the relative cost/benefit of scale testing. One question remains: how small is too small?

#732 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:51 AM

I expect that the exact nature of the failure may well be kept quiet too.


I certainly wouldn't expect them to publish specific details of whatever happened, at least before September 2013.

Hell, ETNZ has even hid details of their first AC45 capsize to this day, which would have revealed absolutely nothing relevant.

#733 Te Kooti

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:02 AM

I certainly wouldn't expect them to publish specific details of whatever happened, at least before September 2013.

Hell, ETNZ has even hid details of their first AC45 capsize to this day, which would have revealed absolutely nothing relevant.



You will never understand that capsize 'cause it was taniwha related.

Piss off the taniwha and .....

Watch out!

#734 kiwi_jon

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:37 AM


I expect that the exact nature of the failure may well be kept quiet too.


I certainly wouldn't expect them to publish specific details of whatever happened, at least before September 2013.

Hell, ETNZ has even hid details of their first AC45 capsize to this day, which would have revealed absolutely nothing relevant.

5:28 PM Wed 20 Apr 2011

Emirates Team New Zealand today confirmed that their AC45 had capsized in Auckland while training today.

The one design wingsailed catamaran left the Viaduct Harbour just before 1000hrs this morning and returned soon after noon.

A Team confirmed the incident had taken place when approached by Sail-World, saying the time of the capsize was late this this morning (Wednesday) NZT.

The yacht toppled on to its side as it rounded a mark. No one was injured. The yacht was righted without incident and it sailed back to base, Sail-World was told.

Minor damage to the top of the wing will be repaired overnight and the yacht will be back on the water tomorrow.

Skipper Dean Barker said the capsize was all part of the learning process. 'Every time we take the yacht out we test to the limits in the conditions prevailing otherwise there’s no point to the testing process.'

No cameras were on hand to video the incident. A southwesterly wind (offshore) was blowing at the time gusting to 29 kts.



#735 shockload

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:39 AM

Reliable source:

failure due to front element twist testing.

#736 eric e

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:50 AM

Reliable source:

failure due to front element twist testing.


very interesting!

was wondering if perhaps the mast box section hadn't been engineered enough for twisting loads

not something carbon is renown for

more kevlar??? would make it heavier and cayard has already bitched about having to take weight off somewhere else if they are going to add any

or perhaps the twisting hydraulics? got a little apeshit?

internal limit switch fell off and, actuator went full stroke???

computer software glitched while activating twist with same result???

perhaps would help explain while no one was injured

reaching along in medium winds doing test after test

someone yells, "twist test", all eyes up, section starts twisting

keeps twisting

then the cracking carbon canon

splits in the middle of the box

everyone starts looking for an escape route forward or back

the lower sections falls away to leeward

upper section falls to windward

silence for a moment

then

fuck, FUCK, FUCK!

the tri coasts to a halt

the tender comes alongside to say

"ya wanna tow?"

#737 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:34 PM

^ Nice imagination, really!
--

Gtran of a rare TT interview, AC is at the end.

http://translate.goo...ticle644773.ece

#738 GauchoGreg

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:41 PM

^ Nice imagination, really!
--

Gtran of a rare TT interview, AC is at the end.

http://translate.goo...ticle644773.ece



Ummm, what's this about Nice (FR) in November?

Quote:

The big news for all Swedish sailing lovers is that the "Swedish Artemis Challenge" will take part in the Louis Vuitton Cup, the most prestigious sailing competition in the world after troubled American Cup. The first regatta in Nice in November. Then it's a pro, not Torbjörn Törnqvist, who are behind the helm. But he appears perhaps up to the cockpit anyway.



#739 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:53 PM

Could be a typo; but yes, could well instead have come from TT - good catch.

In a Jobson video interview that I posted somewhere, at the time I was reading something else while he droned on so didn't listen very closely, but at about 20 minutes in he made reference to 'hard work' going on to make a couple post-September ACWS events happen. Perhaps there's a tie-in?

#740 GauchoGreg

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:59 PM

Could be a typo; but yes, could well instead have come from TT - good catch.

In a Jobson video interview that I posted somewhere, at the time I was reading something else while he droned on so didn't listen very closely, but at about 20 minutes in he made reference to 'hard work' going on to make a couple post-September ACWS events happen. Perhaps there's a tie-in?


Nice would be great. Not sure if it would be as good as Marseille, but certainly a fantastic venue. They need to do one in France. Whether it be down in the South (Marseilles or Nice), or north (Lorient or Brest). Not sure on the timing, though. Wouldn't it make more sense, logistics-wise, to do an event in Korea, Australia, and/or New Zealand following SFO, then do France just before Venice in the Spring?

#741 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:04 PM

In one of Barot's recent tweets he twitted that an ACWS just had to happen in Hong Kong. Makes me wonder if the fact it didn't happen contributed to CT's demise.

The opposite may be true for ET, if there's anything to this one? Fingers crossed.

#742 maxmini

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:12 PM

So in this interview I think it is the author saying this not TT . The nerve of some people ;)

The big news for all Swedish sailing lovers is that the "Swedish Artemis Challenge" will take part in the Louis Vuitton Cup, the most prestigious sailing competition in the world after troubled American Cup. Första regattan är i Nice i november. The first regatta in Nice in November. Då är det ett proffs, inte Torbjörn Törnqvist, som står bakom rodret. Then it's a pro, not Torbjörn Törnqvist, who are behind the helm. Men han dyker kanske upp i sittbrunnen ändå. But he appears perhaps up to the cockpit anyway.

#743 kiwi_jon

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:39 PM

FFS, check the date of the article

The secret oil billionaire

By: Erik Wahlin
Published September 25, 2009 13:47



The first Louis Vuitton Trophy was in Nice, November 2009

#744 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:40 PM

Oops, mea culpa.

Mildly interesting on other counts anyway.

#745 GauchoGreg

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:41 PM

FFS, check the date of the article

The secret oil billionaire

By: Erik Wahlin
Published September 25, 2009 13:47



The first Louis Vuitton Trophy was in Nice, November 2009


:lol::lol::lol:

Toooo Damned funny. I be got!!!

#746 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:07 PM

FFS, check the date of the article

The secret oil billionaire

By: Erik Wahlin
Published September 25, 2009 13:47



The first Louis Vuitton Trophy was in Nice, November 2009

Oracle Racing had not yet won the Cup in November 2009.

AR did not challenge for the America's Cup until late 2010.

The article date may not be accurate. FFS yourself.

#747 kiwi_jon

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:16 AM

Oracle Racing had not yet won the Cup in November 2009.

AR did not challenge for the America's Cup until late 2010.

The article date may not be accurate. FFS yourself.


The article date is accurate. Every thing in that article point to the article being written in 2009

By last summer, when sailing race Around Gotland. After an intense duel for three days, his Artemis defeated the infamous four minutes of Niklas Zennström boat Ran, which consequently won in storbåtsklassen Grand Open IRC.


Artemis beat Ran on the water by 4 minutes in the Gotland Runt in July 2009 but was 2nd on corrected time. That was TP52 Rans last race as they launched Ran II, the mini maxi, soon after.

Just such a direct investment came to be known now September. Lundin Petroleum announced that the Gunvor Group will be partners in the Russian Lagansky block, with the proviso that the Russian authorities approve the deal.


2 September 2009

LUNDIN PETROLEUM PARTNERS WITH GUNVOR IN THE LAGANSKY BLOCK, RUSSIA

Lundin Petroleum AB ("Lundin Petroleum") is pleased to announce that it has entered into an agreement with Gunvor Cyprus Holding Ltd, an entity in the Gunvor Group, ("Gunvor") under which Gunvor will acquire a 30 percent interest in the Lagansky Block, located in the Russian sector of the Caspian. Lundin Petroleum will hold the remaining 70 percent interest in the Lagansky Block.


Where in that article does it mention Oracle Racing or that Artemis has entered the Americas Cup. It talks about the Louis Vuitton Cup in Nice in November. That is meant to be Louis Vuitton Trophy in Nice in November 2009.

Face it Spinray, you were just plain wrong and your attempt to backtrack was pathetic.

#748 Te Kooti

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:40 AM


Can you share with us the valuable similarities between their small Tornado and big AC72 wings?

Sorry, cannot share anything on this. I am fortunate enough to get "insider" info from a few people in a few teams


Yea, same as us!

Look around you boy!


#749 ~Stingray~

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:40 AM

^^ Okay fine, you proved it is old.

The link was posted today as being new, at a SF/Swede website, whose link I have since lost. Cayard addressed them last week, so I lent it some credence.

Again, mildly interesting regardless, TT does not often give interviews.

#750 nav

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 06:37 PM

on further reflection

if the main-spar failed at the join

the lower section of the wing should have remained standing

as the lower stays attach just below the join...

so it may have more likely failed

just below the lower stays, inadequate carbon strength in the spar just below the stay area

or a lower spar stay mount pulled free..., inadequate carbon strength or bonding at the mount...
Posted Image


If I remember correctly the designations on the photo were mistaken. There is no 'fairing', the wing-spar is 'D' shaped.




Posted Image

Posted Image


Load paths....
Posted Image


#751 eric e

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:13 AM

as you say

thanks for the correction

i can imagine twisting a box section with hydraulics reasonably easy and sort of get a feel of where the loads are going to be

but a D section...............

that:s going to be loaded right across and around the forward face

and then there's a whole lot hanging off the back and 3? sets of stays bonded in there too....

i wonder if twist is going to be worth it...



#752 Alpina

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:44 AM

Attached File  AvvnvK9CMAIJoZ2.jpg large.jpg   6.92K   76 downloads
Source: https://twitter.com/...6254592/photo/1

#753 nav

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:25 PM

Attached File  AvvnvK9CMAIJoZ2.jpg large.jpg   6.92K   76 downloads
Source: https://twitter.com/...6254592/photo/1


Hulls on their way to Spain?

#754 kiwi_jon

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:35 PM

They are in Spain. Kings Marine are in Valencia.

The hulls were built in Sweden by Kings Marine staff then trucked to Kings Marine in Valencia where they were completed and the rest of the components built and assembled then disassembled and trucked to the Artemis base.

Looks like Artemis are at about the same stage as TNZ who are about to take delivery of their AC72 and assemble it on base. The one difference is TNZ will have a wing to play with. :lol:

#755 SW Sailor

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:08 PM

Looks like Artemis will be on a schedule like Luna Rosa - possible September launch.

#756 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:12 PM

I wonder if TNZ's platform has arrived to the base yet? GD had mentioned mid-month in the recent RG video interview, could be close.

#757 SimonN

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 09:31 PM

Looks like Artemis are at about the same stage as TNZ who are about to take delivery of their AC72 and assemble it on base. The one difference is TNZ will have a wing to play with. :lol:

Isn't the big difference about Artemis having already sailed with their wing in a wide range of conditions (up to 25 knots) and now know the failure point of their wing. ETNZ haven't got a clue how their wing will work or whether it will even stay together!

#758 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 09:53 PM

Hopefully NZ's wing lasts better than AR's did; but AR may have the time benefit regardless, none of their earlier wing time having counted against the limit.

#759 kiwi_jon

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:23 PM


Looks like Artemis are at about the same stage as TNZ who are about to take delivery of their AC72 and assemble it on base. The one difference is TNZ will have a wing to play with. :lol:

Isn't the big difference about Artemis having already sailed with their wing in a wide range of conditions (up to 25 knots) and now know the failure point of their wing. ETNZ haven't got a clue how their wing will work or whether it will even stay together!

Not really. By the time Artemis splash their AC72 TNZ and Oracle will have had wing time on an AC72 with a real set of data to work with pertaining to an AC72 not data on a hull the wing was never designed for.

#760 kiwi_jon

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:37 PM

I wonder if TNZ's platform has arrived to the base yet? GD had mentioned mid-month in the recent RG video interview, could be close.


Dalts said they were pretty much committed to a public launch on the 21st July. There have been trucks arriving at the tent but nothing big. That will probably happen at night and the webcam stops recording at 7pm.

#761 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:42 PM

Yes, caught that too, but he said that once everything had been prefitted at Cooksons then if it all worked out, then it would go to the Viaduct mid-June.

Am wondering why they have a Saturday night launch scheduled. For a good light-show publicity event, maybe? Could be pretty cool.

#762 Ncik

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:17 AM

What would be the righting moment difference between an ORMA 60 and an AC72? Weight and beam are the critical items, anyone got these?

This determines the loads on the mast, in particular the compression.

Could this have been a mistake in the basic structure calcs of the wing, rather than a twist experiment gone wrong?

Max righting moment is the limit and that occurs the instant the leeward hull is taking all the weight, you can't load it up any more than that no matter the wind speed, apart from adding rig tension.

#763 Ncik

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:23 AM

ORMA
Beam = ~60 feet (18.4m)
Weight = ???
Righting Moment = ???

AC72
Beam = 14m
Weight = 5.9 tonnes
Righting Moment = 82.6 t.m



It's gonna have to weigh less than 4.4 tonnes to match the righting moment. With an extra hull is that weight even possible despite being a fraction shorter?

#764 Scarecrow

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:24 AM

I suspect part of the many changes made to the ORMA was matching it as closely as possible with regards to righting moments etc. With cat training days limited by the rules I'd expect to see the tri being used right up to the main event (expect to see it in the states) so that wings can be tested and modified separately to the platform allowing the Artemis's boats to be far more refined and tested than the competition.

#765 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:37 AM

^ Once you are flying on a 72' hull, there could be a lot to learn wing-wise, be it mounted on an AC72 or mounted on a custom-made Orma72 outer hull, also flying.

The degree to which how valuable that AR wing program has already been, is almost insignificant compared to the statement it has made about just how serious that syndicate's program is. AR is coming down the train track full on, Cayard and TT are not mincing any words either.

#766 eric e

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:39 AM

if the wing compression loads were too much for the mast ball? pivot point

i guess it could have collapsed, dropped the wing a few feet and triggered an internal collapse

probably would have been a dirty big hole boat tho....

#767 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:53 AM

To all the Match Racing purists:

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

(running and ducking)

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.

#768 kiwi_jon

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:50 AM

To all the Match Racing purists:

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

(running and ducking)

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.


Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

#769 SW Sailor

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:04 AM


To all the Match Racing purists:

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

(running and ducking)

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.


Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

That's simple if you've been paying attention - he yells more than Jimmy and DB.

#770 kiwi_jon

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:58 AM



To all the Match Racing purists:

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

(running and ducking)

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.


Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

That's simple if you've been paying attention - he yells more than Jimmy and DB.


Actually it pays to suck at fleet racing, something Artemis does extremely well.

With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

#771 SW Sailor

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:04 AM




To all the Match Racing purists:

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

(running and ducking)

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.


Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

That's simple if you've been paying attention - he yells more than Jimmy and DB.


Actually it pays to suck at fleet racing, something Artemis does extremely well.

With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

Then apparently JS didn't get the memo in SD.

#772 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:09 AM

To all the Match Racing purists:

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

What's your analysis?


Since there's no TV coverage and no journalistic coverage, feck knows. The only match race I've seen lately had coverage beginning when TH had already established a pre-start controlling position which was held to the finish. So that wasn't all that enlightening.

I wouldn't take 1 race sudden death elimination events too seriously anyway.

#773 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:10 AM

With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.


Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?

#774 SW Sailor

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:32 AM


With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.


Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?


Pretty simple, his team lost so it must be flawed, even though he wished his team never entered this event.

Actually they didn't enter for about 6 months. We just heard a litany of excuses as to why.

#775 kiwi_jon

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:31 AM


With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.


Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?


Points have everything to do with it.

seed 1 races seed 8 in the QF. If seed 8 wins then seed 1 gets MR points for 8th place and seed 8 moves to the semis

seed 4 races seed 5 in the QF. If seed 5 wins then seed 4 gets MR points for 5th place and seed 5 moves to the semis

seeds 4 or 5 are guaranteed MR points for a minimum of 5th place.

Prior to San Diego the top 2 seeds were automatically placed in the semis and the other seeds fought out for a place in the semis.

#776 Indio

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:58 AM



With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.


Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?


Pretty simple, his team lost so it must be flawed, even though he wished his team never entered this event.

Actually they didn't enter for about 6 months. We just heard a litany of excuses as to why.


Nobody gives a fuck about the WSL45 series. Ask the same questions in 2013 when the real event is under way.

#777 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:04 AM

seed 1 races seed 8 in the QF. If seed 8 wins then seed 1 gets MR points for 8th place and seed 8 moves to the semis


Yes I realise how the seedings work. What you said that makes no sense to me was:

"guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing."

It's not points-based, it's elimination-based.

#778 kiwi_jon

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:00 AM


seed 1 races seed 8 in the QF. If seed 8 wins then seed 1 gets MR points for 8th place and seed 8 moves to the semis


Yes I realise how the seedings work. What you said that makes no sense to me was:

"guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing."

It's not points-based, it's elimination-based.


I am talking about Match Racing Championship points which are added to the Fleet Race Championship point to get an overall event winner.

winner of Match Race gets 10 MR Championship points
2nd - 9 points
etc
8th - 3 points

The Quarter Finals are

QF1 1st seed vs 8th seed loser gets 3 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 1
QF2 2nd seed vs 7th seed loser gets 4 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 2
QF3 3rd seed vs 6th seed loser gets 5 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 2
QF4 4th seed vs 5th seed loser gets 6 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 1

Semi1 loser gets 7 Match Race Championship points winner to Final
Semi2 loser gets 8 Match Race Championship points winner to Final

Final loser gets 9 Match Race Championship points
Final winner gets 10 Match Race Championship points

Seeds 4 and 5 are guaranteed to get 6 Match Race Championship points if they lose QF4 which is the maximum points you can get without going into a Semi and winner of QF4 is guaranteed a minimum of 7 Match Race Championship points if they lose their Semi.

Seeds 1,2 or 3 have the most to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.

I know I would want to go into the Match Race seeded 4th or 5th because you have the least to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.

#779 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:27 AM

I know I would want to go into the Match Race seeded 4th or 5th because you have the least to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.


Fair enough although like pretty much everyone else, I couldn't care less about series points.

#780 kiwi_jon

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:36 AM


I know I would want to go into the Match Race seeded 4th or 5th because you have the least to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.


Fair enough although like pretty much everyone else, I couldn't care less about series points.


I think you will find the ACWS teams care. At the end of the day it is Trophy in the cabinet and bragging rights.

#781 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:07 PM

I think you will find the ACWS teams care.


If that were true they would have been spending time and money practising in Valencia over the winter. Which, it seems, nobody very much did.

#782 kiwi_jon

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:28 PM


I think you will find the ACWS teams care.


If that were true they would have been spending time and money practising in Valencia over the winter. Which, it seems, nobody very much did.


TNZ shipped their AC45 to NZ for our summer and trained here along with Luna Rossa who then did further training in Italy. Oracle shipped their AC45's back to SF and trained there and Artemis trained on their AC45 in Valencia.

And the top teams are?

#783 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:45 PM

TNZ shipped their AC45 to NZ for our summer and trained here along with Luna Rossa


Not what DB said, which was that there had been no significant training by TNZ in AC45s between SD and Naples. Interviewed in Naples IIRC.

But if you want to continue arguing that TNZ cares deeply about ACWS, be my guest. It seems curiously at odds with your general Weltanschauung.

#784 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 01:05 PM

^ DB said again in the video just yesterday they hope to win the season championship. GD has in the past said that if he had the extra budget, that he'd run two boats in it. And both have said they wished Auckland had gotten an event.

But it's not an either/or, either TNZ does care about winning or they do not care; they do care, but not at the cost of the Big Picture. You give and take what you can from the WS and try to win while at it, but you balance it with for example the SL testing - which for sure took priority whenever on the schedule.

PC has said they are considering entering their second AC45; perhaps the construction delay will affect the decision one way or another.

LR is all over it. Haven't done the math but in accumulated points from over just Naples and Venice both boats must be doing pretty well in those standings - especially Draper/Piranha.

For Energy it's a huge deal for proving themselves to sponsors, the frers amplify that constantly.

RC hasn't helmed since Plymouth but did very well; could be in the mix this time too. Outteridge could also be in the thick of it, this being his second event.

These guys are all highly competitive. They will most definitely be trying to win. ETNZ included.

#785 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 01:17 PM

For Energy it's a huge deal for proving themselves to sponsors, the frers amplify that constantly.


LP was also asked whether they had practised between SD and Naples. The answer was "non".

I was really surprised that teams didn't take the opportunity for training and two-boat tuning in Valencia. I fully expected them to and that they did not speaks volumes.

Of course the sailors will be highly motivated to win because that's what they do. That isn't the same as saying the teams - as financial/managerial enterprises - are taking the ACWS series competition seriously.

#786 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 01:32 PM

^ Can't think of any team's management not taking it pretty seriously, TNZ included. But it it floats your boat to think it, then .. :) Again, so long as the AC72 work is not affected by it, they will take what they can from the WS, which does not involve their designers and builders anyway.

Newport being the finale for Season 1 does help make this event more interesting. Just 4 points separate ORS and ETNZ, it could be decided only on Sunday July 1.

Once the first 72s have been launched then Yes, some teams may find further WS events more distracting than useful, along some team factors.

#787 dogwatch

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:17 PM

But it it floats your boat to think it, then .....


My boat is presently ashore on the Hard of Reality. It is your craft that floats on the Ocean of Wishful-ness.

#788 bobbymacbrown

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:01 PM

ORMA
Beam = ~60 feet (18.4m)
Weight = ???
Righting Moment = ???

AC72
Beam = 14m
Weight = 5.9 tonnes
Righting Moment = 82.6 t.m



It's gonna have to weigh less than 4.4 tonnes to match the righting moment. With an extra hull is that weight even possible despite being a fraction shorter?



#789 bobbymacbrown

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:13 PM

For RM calculation, consider half the width ( actually a touch more as the center of beyonce is not on cl of hull) as the CoG is likely to be at the centeline of the boat. Add to this the crew weight * total width.
Ac 72 RM : 5.9 * 7.2 + 1.2*14 : 59 T.m

Orma 60 : say 6 T and 18 m wide : 6*9 : 54 T.m. Add crew RM, some on main hull, some on ww float

#790 Ncik

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:05 AM

For RM calculation, consider half the width ( actually a touch more as the center of beyonce is not on cl of hull) as the CoG is likely to be at the centeline of the boat. Add to this the crew weight * total width.
Ac 72 RM : 5.9 * 7.2 + 1.2*14 : 59 T.m

Orma 60 : say 6 T and 18 m wide : 6*9 : 54 T.m. Add crew RM, some on main hull, some on ww float


oops, you're right.

#791 eric e

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:17 AM

if you will

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#792 Ncik

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:10 AM

that's funny

#793 Alpina

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 07:47 AM

The Artemis ORMA 75 ~ 9 tonnes.

#794 Monster Mash

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:03 PM

While snooping around Artemis's new digs in Alameda today I saw this bad boy.

I think it belongs to this guy.

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#795 Rennmaus

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:04 PM

No license plate on the Maserati? And the BMW, a rather moderate model.

#796 Scarecrow

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:45 AM

Interesting in the Newport photos that the front section of artemis's wing has gone from clear to black. Wonder if there are some new sponsor stickers to be applied.

#797 maxmini

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:25 AM

Interesting in the Newport photos that the front section of artemis's wing has gone from clear to black. Wonder if there are some new sponsor stickers to be applied.


Sea Tow perhaps ?

#798 umpire

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:16 AM

No license plate on the Maserati?


Maybe it's on the back of the car!!

#799 Indio

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:16 AM

No license plate on the Maserati? And the BMW, a rather moderate model.


Maybe it was stolen...the car, that is. Posted Image

#800 Mariner

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:07 AM

While snooping around Artemis's new digs in Alameda today I saw this bad boy.

I think it belongs to this guy.



I guess being a sailor mercenary isn't such a bad gig...




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