Jump to content


What about free standing rigs?


  • Please log in to reply
309 replies to this topic

#1 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:33 AM

Nessun Dorma raised the topic following a tread on the Cruising forum.
Despite all the merits I associate with the free standing rig. I simply can say that not only it is hard to sell a boat but you have to sell the concept at the same time.
People loves their boats and the one with free standing spars are no different. Maybe even more.

#2 Nessun Dorma

Nessun Dorma

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, Maryland
  • Interests:Sailing, cooking, red wines of certain ages and styles, any good scotch, woman of certain ages and shapes, my gorgeous wife, my kids, the Coen brothers, and Ronald Reagan.

Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:15 AM

Thank you sir, and well stated. Said differently, if I were designing a custom boat and cared little for resale, other than looks ( I must say they look odd), is it fair to say that unstayed rigs offer the benefits claimed? And if so, what are the pluses and minuses? Bob, Don't worry I'm asking out of intellectual curiosity, not because I want a redesign ....what are your thoughts?

#3 Amati

Amati

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,658 posts
  • Location:Yes!
  • Interests:0 (t) = 0

Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:52 AM

Having had a Finn, OK, Laser, and sundry Windsurfers :lol:, I love 'em. That said, Amati has shrouds.

There you go. I love the sailing freedom an unstayed mast gives you, as far as sailing style, but they are eclipsed by the skinny stayed stuff mostly in performance. But the crappier it gets, the better the unstayed stuff gets. Gybing is a treat unstayed. Lowering the sail is a treat unstayed. But being outpointed by 3-5 degrees upwind is not.

But a bendy unstayed rig is more sheer fun to sail, if it is properly tuned. I had Bruder Pernumbuco masts on my Newport Finn, and damn, they were like a living thing to sail with. Pernumbuco is used for violin and cello bows.

I will say no more.

Paul

#4 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,590 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:12 AM

Friend of mine has one. We talked a little about her cruising experiences with it, although most cruising around here is via diesel she reported some exhilarating runs under sail. Nice looking boat for sure and I have considered and even sought out information on acquiring one (Freedom line). My questions/issues (other than getting over aesthetics) are:
Where do you fly the courtesy flag? (yeah I'm sure I could figure this out)
How do you take a piss with no backstay to hold onto? (really???)
Where does the SSB antenna go? (Wire I suppose, but will it get taken out in an accidental gibe/)
What is that tree trunk doing in the V-berth? (its a tree trunk)
Can this thing be fixed if it breaks in the middle of nowhere? (my research says no)
Is it going to cost more than the diesel to fix if it does break? (my research says yes)
Is it going to go upwind? (about as good as my current boat?? or not...)

#5 olaf hart

olaf hart

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,515 posts
  • Location:D'Entrecasteaux Channel

Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:47 AM

Yves, maybe you can help me here.
Years ago I had a Freedom 21 with the "gun mount" spinnaker.
We had a lot of fun in that boat, in fact both my sons were breast fed on the downwind leg when we used to race it as a young family.
It was a good look when we passed another boat.
The big problem was the amount of windage that thick mast generated at the bow.
It was impossible to motor into a decent wind, the bow would just blow off, and the further off the wind it went the worse the turning moment became.
My impression was that there was a lot more windage with that mast than with a conventional rig.
Have any of your designs had the same issue?

#6 Presuming Ed

Presuming Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,948 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:03 AM

Posted Image

#7 Becalmed

Becalmed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 464 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 01:45 PM

I haven't seen anyone turned away from a Nonsuch which has a freestanding rig. I remember it was a bit odd when Hinterhoeller started selling them, but they sold and to all kinds of sailors as a simple, high quality cruising boat. Are they fast.... fast enough, and the interior is fantastic. They still fetch a premium price used.

#8 Innocent Bystander

Innocent Bystander

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,413 posts
  • Location:Lower Southern MD

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:03 PM

Having had a Finn, OK, Laser, and sundry Windsurfers :lol:, I love 'em. That said, Amati has shrouds.

There you go. I love the sailing freedom an unstayed mast gives you, as far as sailing style, but they are eclipsed by the skinny stayed stuff mostly in performance. But the crappier it gets, the better the unstayed stuff gets. Gybing is a treat unstayed. Lowering the sail is a treat unstayed. But being outpointed by 3-5 degrees upwind is not.

But a bendy unstayed rig is more sheer fun to sail, if it is properly tuned. I had Bruder Pernumbuco masts on my Newport Finn, and damn, they were like a living thing to sail with. Pernumbuco is used for violin and cello bows.

I will say no more.

Paul



I would agree with a couple of caveats. Performance, as the measurement has been evolved by high drag, skinny stayed stuff sailors, puts a premium on windward performance and the ability to add large amounts of sail area offwind - areas where unstayed rigs are generally at a disadvantage. Like a NASCAR racer that turns only left, you have to wonder how applicable sausage racing is to the "real world."

So, for the less than 20% of sailors that race regularly, unstayed rigs don't make a lot of sense. For the other 80%, that last 3 degrees upwind is not so critical. Don't get me wrong, I love sailing a weatherly boat. That last 3 degrees costs a bunch in rigging bits. As to drag, shrouds, stays, spreaders and the like are incredible draggy. Sufficiently engineered, those tree trunks would get smaller and less draggy.

I would avoid an unstayed rig if my plan was W/L racing, even part time. For a cruiser, there is a lot to be said for getting rid of the clutter.

#9 Nessun Dorma

Nessun Dorma

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, Maryland
  • Interests:Sailing, cooking, red wines of certain ages and styles, any good scotch, woman of certain ages and shapes, my gorgeous wife, my kids, the Coen brothers, and Ronald Reagan.

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:09 PM

So far for pure cruising the unstayed rig seems to have two minuses : higher cost and an all or non repair problem if the rig fails offshore/far away. All other comments seem to be pluses?

#10 jhiller

jhiller

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 618 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:11 PM

The third minus is that they look funky

#11 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,497 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:24 PM

For a cruiser, there is a lot to be said for getting rid of the clutter.


But do you get rid of the clutter?

Personally, I'm a catboat fan, and would go with a gaff cat rig if I was to give up slooping. It limits the overall size of the boat that's practical, but I accept that, too.

#12 Nessun Dorma

Nessun Dorma

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, Maryland
  • Interests:Sailing, cooking, red wines of certain ages and styles, any good scotch, woman of certain ages and shapes, my gorgeous wife, my kids, the Coen brothers, and Ronald Reagan.

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:29 PM

Yeah that's the big unfortunate given.

The third minus is that they look funky



#13 Magnum Opus

Magnum Opus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 78 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:35 PM

Can this thing be fixed if it breaks in the middle of nowhere? (my research says no)
Is it going to cost more than the diesel to fix if it does break? (my research says yes)


Probably not and Probably in that order. But the same is true if the front of your boat falls off or the keel decides to rip free. The key is to buy a mast that won't break in the middle of nowhere, same trick as buying a hull.

#14 miloman

miloman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:53 PM

Rotating wing masts should get rid of most of the weatherliness problem. But again it's another big jump in price. There are a number of designers who seem to feel strongly that they are a vast improvement. Eric Sponberg and Tom Wylie have both been proponents of freestanding rigs.


Can this thing be fixed if it breaks in the middle of nowhere? (my research says no)
Is it going to cost more than the diesel to fix if it does break? (my research says yes)


Probably not and Probably in that order. But the same is true if the front of your boat falls off or the keel decides to rip free. The key is to buy a mast that won't break in the middle of nowhere, same trick as buying a hull.



The cost to repair doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. I don't think that conventional rigs are terribly cheap to repair either, nor can you fix them in the middle of nowhere. I suppose that chainplates might make setting up a jury rig marginally easier. Also, a large percentage of rigs fail because of a fitting letting go not because the mast itself failed. Presumably you're reducing the chance of failure when you remove all the stays and terminals that can go wrong.


I don't think that free standing masts look bad, but they certainly don't look traditional.

Masthead whip is another concern.

#15 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,590 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:50 PM

Rotating wing masts should get rid of most of the weatherliness problem. But again it's another big jump in price. There are a number of designers who seem to feel strongly that they are a vast improvement. Eric Sponberg and Tom Wylie have both been proponents of freestanding rigs.



Can this thing be fixed if it breaks in the middle of nowhere? (my research says no)
Is it going to cost more than the diesel to fix if it does break? (my research says yes)


Probably not and Probably in that order. But the same is true if the front of your boat falls off or the keel decides to rip free. The key is to buy a mast that won't break in the middle of nowhere, same trick as buying a hull.



The cost to repair doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. I don't think that conventional rigs are terribly cheap to repair either, nor can you fix them in the middle of nowhere. I suppose that chainplates might make setting up a jury rig marginally easier. Also, a large percentage of rigs fail because of a fitting letting go not because the mast itself failed. Presumably you're reducing the chance of failure when you remove all the stays and terminals that can go wrong.


I don't think that free standing masts look bad, but they certainly don't look traditional.

Masthead whip is another concern.


A subscription to an sailing magazine will yield over time many tales of jury rigged masts, spliced together with cabin furniture and band-it clamps and vise grips, chainplates replaced with lashings, parted wire spiced together with cable clamps. A lot easier to keep a spar up when most of your force is compression.
However I will buy the argument that freestanding masts are less prone to damage to begin with. Hell, even if you get rolled 360 there will be a lot less drag on the rig. I know little first hand, but I from what I hear the real game stoppers here for carbon spars (assuming most would be) are corrosion/galvanic action, lightning and mechanical damage. Of course there are ways of dealing with those things too, stayed rigs have same issues, and chances of serious damage have to be about nill when prudent seamanship is applied in liberal doses. Personally I wouldn't worry about it if I owned one. I have "Freedom 39" as one of my saved yachtworld.com searches. Pilothouse Schooner, freestanding rig, oh yeah!

#16 Ryley

Ryley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,039 posts
  • Location:Boston, MA
  • Interests:Sailing, Photography, Sailing, Mountain Biking.. did I mention sailing?

Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:54 PM

Yves,
you and I have talked before about your unstayed rigs. Nessun, here's what I've found with my two unstayed boats, a Freedom 40 (cat ketch) and a Freedom 45 (sloop).

First, I guess you're technically correct that it's an "all or nothing" regarding failure. It's true that some Freedom masts have failed in the past. One guy grounded his boat hard, shock-loaded the mast, and it failed - a year later. My friend Alan's Freedom 33 had mast issues caused by a poor conversion from wishbones to standard booms, but the problem didn't show up for years and was pretty easily re-engineered and repaired. carbon masts hit by lightning can be problematic. But compare that with the relatively small part that failed on Puma's VO70 (a tang on the mast) that caused the whole rig to come down. Team Sanya is heading to madagascar because they lost one upper shroud, fortunately noticed before they tacked or they would have lost their rig. yes, a free-standing carbon rig has only one failure point, but compared to carbon stayed rigs, their success rate is a million-fold better. My Freedom 40 had two original CF masts that were 27 years old when I sold the boat, and still going strong.

So there is an initial cost premium. But how often should the standing rigging of a 27 year old boat have been swapped out? How much would that have cost?
Handling: There are no shrouds for your boom to smack into on a gybe. there's no backstay for your sail to get hung up on, so you can build a very roachy, powerful wing shape into your main. There are no chainplates that leak, there are no hull-deforming loads being put on all that wire, no compression of the mast into the keel.

Performance: There is no doubt that a Freedom (even a sloop) does not point with a similar-sized conventionally stayed boat. I imagine this is mostly because it's difficult to get the proper headstay tension, although as the breeze changes, this becomes less of an issue. The 3-5 degree difference has never mattered much, because we make up for it by being able to tack faster (100% self-tacking jib). We generally are quite fast against similar boats when we reach our wind range. The Freedom 40 was faster than most 40'ers off the wind, but of course did not point well at all. In my experience, the true advantage of the free standing rig is in the somewhat self-tuning nature of the mast and sails. Puffs bend the mast rather than heel the boat (yes, the boat heels, but not as much). With properly designed sails, the mast bend blades out the main, depowering it. As the puff goes through, the mast straightens, the boat accelerates. It makes the boat pretty lively and easy to manage. As an example, coming back from Bermuda we were caught in 45+ knots with two reefs and the jib up. While the boat exhibited about 20 degrees of heel, it was never overpowered, never broached, never lost control of the rudder. I am positive that a good portion of that had to do with the way the rig handles the changes in dynamic pressure.

For the kinds of cruising I do and plan to do, the free standing rig really makes sense. I love the ease of handling, and I love the low maintenance. I don't think my Freedom 45 looks bad at all - Gary Mull drew a really nice hull. the fact that there are no wires holding my mast up just makes the lines that much cleaner. Anyone who would like to explore the merits (and disadvantages) of a free-standing rig is welcome to sail with me in Boston this spring.

By the way, the Gary Hoyt Freedom 32 is still considered to be an excellent blue water cruiser.


Olaf, I don't think your motoring issue was caused by your rig. Even with a 'telephone pole' rig like the F21, there's a lot more windage on a conventionally stayed rig. I had a similar problem with my Freedom 40 but the problem wasn't the rig, it was the freeboard. at low speed (like when you're trying to turn a 40' boat with a full keel into a slip), the wind would catch that high bow and just yank it downwind. Made things really tricky. The Freedom 21 doesn't have a lot of freeboard, but it does go pretty wide quickly at the bow - that's to hold enough volume to keep the boat from turning into a free-standing mast submarine off the wind. That extra volume is probably what caused the issue. It's also possible that if you had the hoyt gunmount stuff all rigged up, that would cause a lot of windage. For that matter, I have the same problem with my conventionally rigged 25' Elliott when I'm using the torqeedo - it's just not strong enough to hold us into the wind if there's more than about 15 knots on the nose. maybe you were under hp'd?

SlowCruiser,
we have a flag halyard for courtesy flags. We raise them about halfway up the mast, about to "spreader height." The SSB question has been one of debate, for sure. The P-PO had one on the F-40. He had a wire that went from the side deck up on a halyard to the top of the mizzen mast. It was positioned far enough forward that it wouldn't get taken out by a gybe. We've considered a whip antenna for the F45, but until we get serious about it, nothing's decided. It is a surmountable problem, however. And yes, a replacement mast is going to be expensive (isn't that why we have insurance?), but Sponberg and Van Dusen and Hall and pretty much anyone else who builds or repairs with carbon will tell you that the repair techniques have come far enough that if you can save the pieces of the mast, generally they can be repaired to be as strong as, if not stronger than, the original mast.

#17 Ishmael

Ishmael

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,286 posts
  • Location:Fuctifino

Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:47 PM

It will also depend on the particular boat. I remembered reading a story about a Nonsuch 36, and found reference to it at Cruisers Forum.

Nonsuches are well built and seaworthy however I would not attempt crossing an ocean in one. I do not like the idea of the one big sail, even when reefed there's lots of sail and windage under that wishbone. I also don't like the thought of only one halyard. I think two Nonsuches have tried circumnavigations and none succeeded. The last guy to try it lost the halyard and drifted a month or so in the Southern Ocean before being rescued. The boat survived abandonment and ended up in South America, if my memory serves me right.



#18 Veeger

Veeger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 959 posts
  • Location:Anacortes, Wa

Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:15 PM

Ryley said

Olaf, I don't think your motoring issue was caused by your rig. Even with a 'telephone pole' rig like the F21, there's a lot more windage on a conventionally stayed rig. I had a similar problem with my Freedom 40 but the problem wasn't the rig, it was the freeboard. at low speed (like when you're trying to turn a 40' boat with a full keel into a slip), the wind would catch that high bow and just yank it downwind. Made things really tricky. The Freedom 21 doesn't have a lot of freeboard, but it does go pretty wide quickly at the bow - that's to hold enough volume to keep the boat from turning into a free-standing mast submarine off the wind. That extra volume is probably what caused the issue. It's also possible that if you had the hoyt gunmount stuff all rigged up, that would cause a lot of windage. For that matter, I have the same problem with my conventionally rigged 25' Elliott when I'm using the torqeedo - it's just not strong enough to hold us into the wind if there's more than about 15 knots on the nose. maybe you were under hp'd?


I chartered a Freedom 30 many years ago and while I greatly enjoy a free standing rig, I too, experienced that bow blowing off thing while trying to maneuver to a slip. It's not a matter of wing or rotating nor even as having more windage or less than conventional. It's a matter of the location of that windage. A conventional sloop has its center of windage much closer to its sail CE. The Freedom mast is so far forward that it really makes a difference, I'd respectfully disagree that its the bow freeboard that is causing the issue.

That said, I'm really hoping that my 'next' boat is going to have a free standing rig. With my cruising cat, I'm pretty frustrated with having shrouds that are so far aft (because there's no backstay) that I can't effectively ease my main very much when sailing downwind. I know that tacking downwind is the theory but it's marginal in a cruiser with no light sails. Besides, sailing the PNW fjiords of BC and Ak make it almost necessary to sail very close to DDW half the (sailing) time... the rest of the time you're beating, drifting or motoring!

#19 Beau.Vrolyk

Beau.Vrolyk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,269 posts
  • Location:San Francisco & Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Sailing on any and everything that floats. Skiing when the rainfall turns semi-solid and white.

Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:35 PM

I think there are a number of variables at work here and as a result allegorical data can be confusing and even wrong. A great example is the windage while docking question, which should take into account the hull windage, the keel shape (how cut away is the forefoot), the shape of the mast, etc.... Believe me there is a massive amount of windage forward in an Alden schooner with a bowsprit, three jib stays, foremast, etc.... but the forefoot isn't cut away so they handle just fine.

The points made about single point of failure are my primary concern. Tom Wylie has proven (to me) that this can be managed and that one can build a boat that races successfully against boats with stays. All one needs to do is look at the race results. (What you'll really see is that the PHRF handicap assigned is "about right" and those boats are competitive despite not having jibs or spinnakers.) Returning to the single point of failure, the various loads that are distributed across chainplates, stems, stern posts, etc... are all concentrated at the mast partners and step. When properly engineered, this is fine. But one should have tremendous respect for the load on the deck and mast step. Sure, it's not the compression that is caused by stays, but there's no free lunch. Rather the deck level support for the rig carries a massive load and that will necessarily make that deck much much heavier in a well engineered boat. The mast step, which must now hold the other lateral load pushing to windward, must be equally well engineered. It's not that there is really less load, it's just concentrated in one place and goes in a different direction from a stayed mast. Again, no free lunch.

I was carefully observing the early canting keel race boats and saw many of the same problems that early un-stayed masts faced. The overly simplistic view is that the engineers underestimated the peak loads that boats are subjected to. We still see canting keel boats fail in relatively moderate conditions (see Rambler loosing its keel). Of course these are race boats, but they are also extremely well engineered and we're now on the fourth or fifth generation of this engineering task. In the case of unstayed masts, cruisers are on their own a bit more. Unlike almost every other sort of innovation, because the racing sailors are not leading the way with unstayed masts the cruisers are not getting the detailed failure data they normally would. As a result, I'd be very careful when considering allegorical data about reliability.

This is particularly true when thinking about crash gybes and inversions. While it's true that very few cruising boats with unstayed masts have failed, it is not at all clear that any have actually had many 100s of crash gybes performed on them (a number easily reached in racing), or that they have genuinely had the rig in the water, let alone been inverted. Having been on a boat that inverted I was absolutely stunned that the boat came back up with the stayed rig still in tact and for some reason we still don't understand the leeward lifeline stanchions were bent inward! Without multiple inversions, we simply won't really know how these rigs stand up if they do.

As far as the looks, I like the look of a Finn or Laser and Tom's Wylie-Cat boats are just fine. They are different, but that's ok. I would personally want to see the unstayed mast mounted on a hull that looked modern. I can't think of anything much odder than a unstayed rig on a boat with a bowsprit, clipper bow, dingy davits, carved wood eagle, and all sorts of COTB on the transom. But, that is purely a matter of taste and my taste doesn't matter on this, only the owner of the boat matters.

#20 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,497 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:38 PM

Anecdotes are not data.

1) I once saw a Freedom sloop with the topmast broken above the hounds. I don't know if he was flying a chute, or hit a bridge, or what.

2) Rolling due to wave action causes more stress than wind developed forces.

3) I've seen reviews/comments that blame flexible unstayed rigs, e.g. Hunter Vision, for generating weather helm when the top of the sail sags to leeward. I did get the feeling that these reviewers were hostile to or unfamiliar with the unstayed rig, but that could be just my reaction. If they over-trimmed the main to keep the top of the sail drawing, they might well cause weather helm.

#21 SailAR

SailAR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 06:43 PM

Didn't Bruce Schwab go around the world in a Wylie designed, unstayed master boat? I know a sample set of 1 is an issue, but still impressive.

#22 Beau.Vrolyk

Beau.Vrolyk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,269 posts
  • Location:San Francisco & Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Sailing on any and everything that floats. Skiing when the rainfall turns semi-solid and white.

Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:11 PM

Didn't Bruce Schwab go around the world in a Wylie designed, unstayed master boat? I know a sample set of 1 is an issue, but still impressive.


Well, Ocean Planet was sort of unstayed. She had running backstays to allow for proper jib luff tension and oddly enough had side stays on her radar antenna mast but not on her main mast.

Have a look here.

I think that OP was an extremely interesting boat in many ways and did provide Tom with a lot of information on what would happen to an ocean racing unstayed rig. I just wish there were hundred more of them so we could get a proper sample.

BV

#23 colorado

colorado

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Location:Denver

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:20 PM

Posted Image


As a rule I tend not to like modern designs very much. I find this "cat schooner"(?)very intriguing however. More information anyone?

#24 SailAR

SailAR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:23 PM

Anyone know what happened to this one? http://www.wyliecat..../wylie_44.html#

#25 MisterMoon

MisterMoon

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,111 posts
  • Location:Acworth, GA

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:23 PM


Posted Image


As a rule I tend not to like modern designs very much. I find this "cat schooner"(?)very intriguing however. More information anyone?


Google "Nigel Irens Farfarer" and you'll find it. Built to replace the Irens Schooner MAGGIE B which was lost in a fire at Covey Island.

#26 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,590 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:24 PM

Randy Repass (West Marine founder) has been cruising with unstayed spars. Damn nice boat, little out of my league but nice.
Posted Image
Speaking of being in my league, a little yachtoworld research shows some pretty nice examples in the 37-40ft Freedoms for less than $2000/ft. Something to watch out for here or can I really get a well found Freedom 40 for $70k?

#27 blackjenner

blackjenner

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,568 posts
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:MrsBlack, Brigadoon, freedom

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:49 PM

Tim is the owner of Archangel.

http://ourfreedompro...freedom-39.html

Last I heard he was asking about 115K for her. Private sale. Boat is at Shilshole Marina.

http://www.sailboatl....com/view/16340

I liked the boat, the rig, and the owner. The reasons we didn't follow through?

1) engine access looked like a nightmare.
2) the cabin windows were so crazed that you could not see through them.
3) no heat on the boat -- at all.

For that price, we thought the issues made it a no-go.

Beautiful boat, though.

One thing I noted was how *huge* the mast was as it pierced the main cabin.

#28 blackjenner

blackjenner

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,568 posts
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:MrsBlack, Brigadoon, freedom

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:54 PM

Randy Repass (West Marine founder) has been cruising with unstayed spars. Damn nice boat, little out of my league but nice.
Posted Image
Speaking of being in my league, a little yachtoworld research shows some pretty nice examples in the 37-40ft Freedoms for less than $2000/ft. Something to watch out for here or can I really get a well found Freedom 40 for $70k?


Well, I did see a Freedom 39 Cat/Ketch in Florida for about 70K last year. However, it was involved in a fire.... :)





#29 Ryley

Ryley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,039 posts
  • Location:Boston, MA
  • Interests:Sailing, Photography, Sailing, Mountain Biking.. did I mention sailing?

Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:03 PM

Slow, I bought my Freedom 40 (hull #48) for $65K and it was in excellent condition, except for the main sail which I replaced the next year. That said, the older cat ketches, like the 40, 39, 33, and 28 were built from polyster and most have blisters. My routine was to grind out and fill as many as I could each time I hauled to paint. In two years I'd gotten most of them and none of them were deeper than a layer or two of glass, and none of them came back. There was no wet core in the hull (although there was some around a hatch on deck).

#30 colorado

colorado

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Location:Denver

Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:05 PM

Google "Nigel Irens Farfarer" and you'll find it. Built to replace the Irens Schooner MAGGIE B which was lost in a fire at Covey Island.
[/quote]

Thank you!

#31 olaf hart

olaf hart

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,515 posts
  • Location:D'Entrecasteaux Channel

Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:45 PM

This one has been around for a while, probable some room to move on price.
It has newer, lighter carbon masts as well.

http://naiade5.cyber.../Bienvenue.html

#32 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,777 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:16 PM

I don't typically walk around without pants and underwear so I'll keep my 11 shrouds thank you. :rolleyes:

(but I have to agree that cat schonner looks very nice!)

#33 Innocent Bystander

Innocent Bystander

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,413 posts
  • Location:Lower Southern MD

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:49 PM

I don't typically walk around without pants and underwear so I'll keep my 11 shrouds thank you. :rolleyes:

(but I have to agree that cat schonner looks very nice!)



So you drive a car with frame and bolted on body and don't fly at all?

#34 JSoup

JSoup

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:52 PM

Anyone know what happened to this one? http://www.wyliecat..../wylie_44.html#


It got converted to a stayed rig and has been raced very successfully since.

Yachtworld Link

#35 longy

longy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,862 posts

Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:41 AM

I have a Wyliecat 30 - with more than 1 reef in, you get a lot of lee helm as the CE of the sail moves forward. I do not think you can escape this on a cat boat rig. And the bow does blow off quickly powering at slow speed. A much stiffer spar flying a full batten main with a vertical leach profile & a square head might be able to avoid the lee helm issue. My spar, being the first one built, is too soft to fly something like that.

#36 Ishmael

Ishmael

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,286 posts
  • Location:Fuctifino

Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:21 AM

I have a Wyliecat 30 - with more than 1 reef in, you get a lot of lee helm as the CE of the sail moves forward. I do not think you can escape this on a cat boat rig. And the bow does blow off quickly powering at slow speed. A much stiffer spar flying a full batten main with a vertical leach profile & a square head might be able to avoid the lee helm issue. My spar, being the first one built, is too soft to fly something like that.


Maybe you could fit some shrouds...


:D

Ducking.

#37 longy

longy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,862 posts

Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:41 AM

I could fit a lot of things to it, but nothing will change the relationship Of the CE & the CLr. A set of double diamonds would stiffen up the spar, but look like an abortion. Besides, in SoCal i never have to reef anyway.

#38 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,777 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:07 AM


I don't typically walk around without pants and underwear so I'll keep my 11 shrouds thank you. :rolleyes:

(but I have to agree that cat schonner looks very nice!)



So you drive a car with frame and bolted on body and don't fly at all?


it's called sarcasm :P

#39 Innocent Bystander

Innocent Bystander

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,413 posts
  • Location:Lower Southern MD

Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:41 AM



I don't typically walk around without pants and underwear so I'll keep my 11 shrouds thank you. :rolleyes:

(but I have to agree that cat schonner looks very nice!)



So you drive a car with frame and bolted on body and don't fly at all?


it's called sarcasm :P


Having spent a career in aerospace spanning radial engines and hand bucked rivets to advanced composites, "glue", monolithic structures, and autonomous aircraft, I swear most sailors are old women when it comes to traditions. I'm suprised some accept the marconi rig and synthetic sailcloth. <_< Respecting the past is good. Being mired in it not so much.

Just don't ask me to defend the Hunter "Vision" series.

#40 Ryley

Ryley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,039 posts
  • Location:Boston, MA
  • Interests:Sailing, Photography, Sailing, Mountain Biking.. did I mention sailing?

Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:17 PM

longy,
there's one wyliecat 30 on the east coast, owned by a guy named Lincoln Schoenberg. It is a seriously nice, fun boat. I've seen them out in some serious weather, and the only time they ever had a problem was when the bracket holding the bridle to the mast failed.

He's been in at least 3 different off soundings classes with that boat and always seems to do well, even against the boats with spinnakers.

#41 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,590 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:43 PM

...
Respecting the past is good. Being mired in it not so much.
...


Are you implying that stayed rigs are obsolete? While I think we have hashed out the merits of a free standing rig I don't think there is any way the stayed rig is on its way out, and quite the contrary newer materials are seeming to make it only better.

#42 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,497 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:54 PM

...with more than 1 reef in, you get a lot of lee helm as the CE of the sail moves forward. I do not think you can escape this on a cat boat rig.


In Cape Cod Catboats, heel tends to increase weather helm, so you to some extent, you can counter the lee helm by reefing late and accepting a higher heel angle. I'm not sure this would work in the slimmer Wylie.

#43 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,497 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:58 PM

Are you implying that stayed rigs are obsolete? While I think we have hashed out the merits of a free standing rig I don't think there is any way the stayed rig is on its way out, and quite the contrary newer materials are seeming to make it only better.


Most of the classes that allow something other than a typical Marconi rig have moved on, mostly to wings or rotating partial wings with a minimum of staying.

#44 Innocent Bystander

Innocent Bystander

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,413 posts
  • Location:Lower Southern MD

Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:20 PM


...
Respecting the past is good. Being mired in it not so much.
...


Are you implying that stayed rigs are obsolete? While I think we have hashed out the merits of a free standing rig I don't think there is any way the stayed rig is on its way out, and quite the contrary newer materials are seeming to make it only better.



Not at all. The rise of multihulls has not dealt a deathblow to "leadmines". I'm remarking on the "it can't be safe. It doesn't have wires" attitude that many folks have.

I note that when rules do not inhibit roach, the trend is to getting rid of permanant backstays to provide a more efficient sailshape. I considered a Freedom last time around and probably will again. Lack of wires doesn't scare me off.

From aerodynamic efficiency, you can debate whether the newer rigs are better or "less bad" :D Not sure some of the newer race technologies such as PBO are necessarily better from a trickle down perspective due to cost and limited life. A lot like Kevlar sails of the 70's. They were expensive and great for a season and then they blew up from UV degradation. 19 strand to Dyform to rod to shaped rod to PBO are pretty marginal improvements within a restricted design box. Carbon allows you to build a spar with strength and stiffness where it is needed and light weight where it is not but doesn't fundamentally change the engineering that requires the spar to be stiff enough to stay in column to resist compression.

We used to think big genoas made us faster upwind until the IOR rule went away. Now we understand a blade sheeted inside the shrouds and a nice efficient roachy main makes for a pretty fast and weatherly boat. Conventional wisdom is derived from point of view and sometime innovators just have a different point of view.

I'd love to see some serious investment in aerodynamic engineered free standing spars for large boats. Most today are monolithic structures that are large sections and probably overdesigned for the task as a single, catastrophic failure mode can focus your efforts pretty well.

#45 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:38 PM

Todays marketing sells the "ease" of non-overlap fore triangles but it doesn't change the physics that prove overlap provides power and speed. Many "old" ideas are based on hard learned lessons.

Posted Image

We used to think big genoas made us faster upwind until the IOR rule went away. Now we understand a blade sheeted inside the shrouds and a nice efficient roachy main makes for a pretty fast and weatherly boat. Conventional wisdom is derived from point of view and sometime innovators just have a different point of view.



#46 Ajax

Ajax

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,689 posts
  • Location:Edgewater, MD
  • Interests:It's Obvious!

Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:41 PM

Todays marketing sells the "ease" of non-overlap fore triangles but it doesn't change the physics that prove overlap provides power and speed. Many "old" ideas are based on hard learned lessons.

Posted Image


We used to think big genoas made us faster upwind until the IOR rule went away. Now we understand a blade sheeted inside the shrouds and a nice efficient roachy main makes for a pretty fast and weatherly boat. Conventional wisdom is derived from point of view and sometime innovators just have a different point of view.


Pffft, overlapping headsails? That thing is only a 90% jib, that is, it's only overlapping 90% of the entire friggin' boat!

#47 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,953 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:00 PM

Todays marketing sells the "ease" of non-overlap fore triangles but it doesn't change the physics that prove overlap provides power and speed. Many "old" ideas are based on hard learned lessons.

Posted Image


We used to think big genoas made us faster upwind until the IOR rule went away. Now we understand a blade sheeted inside the shrouds and a nice efficient roachy main makes for a pretty fast and weatherly boat. Conventional wisdom is derived from point of view and sometime innovators just have a different point of view.



sigh

Overlapped sail area is the least efficient, and least effective at driving the boat.

Overlapping genoas were never "faster upwind" and the hard-learned lesson is that genoas are a PITA when they're not actively dangerous.

The reason why IOR boats had huge genoas (with overlaps of 185% as the standard) is that the overlap area was "free" in terms of rating. Is it more efficient & effective? No, but it provides more power than no added area at all...

The reason why we still see hugely overlapping headsails is pretty much the same: very few boats can make their mast taller or their foretriangle longer when the wind gets light. Bigger sails give more power, and the only way to make a BIGGER headsail with 2 fixed dimensions is to make it bigger in the other direction.

And some folks say size doesn't matter
B)

FB- Doug

#48 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:09 PM

8 true, two T-10's, one with a blade and one with a #1. Which one would you prefer to be on?

Posted Image



Todays marketing sells the "ease" of non-overlap fore triangles but it doesn't change the physics that prove overlap provides power and speed. Many "old" ideas are based on hard learned lessons.

Posted Image


We used to think big genoas made us faster upwind until the IOR rule went away. Now we understand a blade sheeted inside the shrouds and a nice efficient roachy main makes for a pretty fast and weatherly boat. Conventional wisdom is derived from point of view and sometime innovators just have a different point of view.



sigh

Overlapped sail area is the least efficient, and least effective at driving the boat.

Overlapping genoas were never "faster upwind" and the hard-learned lesson is that genoas are a PITA when they're not actively dangerous.

The reason why IOR boats had huge genoas (with overlaps of 185% as the standard) is that the overlap area was "free" in terms of rating. Is it more efficient & effective? No, but it provides more power than no added area at all...

The reason why we still see hugely overlapping headsails is pretty much the same: very few boats can make their mast taller or their foretriangle longer when the wind gets light. Bigger sails give more power, and the only way to make a BIGGER headsail with 2 fixed dimensions is to make it bigger in the other direction.

And some folks say size doesn't matter
B)

FB- Doug



#49 Innocent Bystander

Innocent Bystander

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,413 posts
  • Location:Lower Southern MD

Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:25 PM

8 true, two T-10's, one with a blade and one with a #1. Which one would you prefer to be on?


Not a fair question. Sail area does count as well. Better to say 15 true, Reef and genoa or full main and blade?

Try this situation:

8 true. Two identical hulls. One with a standard rig and a 150 and one with the same sail area in roachy main, taller, flexible mast and blade combination with a barberhauler. Assume both mast positions are optimized for the rig choice. Which would you pick?

I'll take the big main/blade and will outpoint the genoa upwind and sail away from it on a reach or run.

When racing OD, I prefer to change down as soon as I reach the crossover point as I can out point anyone with a genoa while not giving away speed. Below the crossover, sail area counts - even inefficient sail area. I also always change down the headsail before reefing the main.

#50 Tucky

Tucky

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,652 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:30 PM

I think the discussion is starting to touch on some key variables that determine rig choices, and i think these variables are actually what determines the best mast for a given application, rather than a blanket "this mast is best" argument.

Namely, what are the dominant sailing conditions the rig is designed for, and how important is being able to handle different conditions than optimum. This, along with the nature of the boat and crew really drives rig choice.

The Volvo maximum mast is designed for mid range winds, so the huge code zeros make sense. If the boat was designed for light air you would make the base rig bigger and design for reefing. Some boats don't care much about reefing. Some boats it is essential. Some boats will use an engine in light air, some boats wont. Some boats sail short handed, some boats always have plenty of crew.

I think the main difficulty with free standing rigs right now is the sail mast interaction. Designing good sails for bendy free standing rigs is hard, and the computers that design most sails are beginners at this (read about the program North Sails undertook for Farfarer, the Irens schooner pictured earlier. I've read several stories about the difficulty in getting good sails for a Wylie or Ocean Planet.

I've always been struck that the french Open 60's, with a fairly open rule, have never type formed on the rig, and you still see a great variety of mast configurations.

#51 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:56 PM

IB, thats a fair response.

Around here we had for many years a very active 69 rating group with fleets of 15~20 not uncommon. The fleet was typically made up of J35's, Schock 35's, Express 37's and Thomas 35's. One of the interseting boats in the fleet was the Thomas 35. The boat could be purchased with either a tall frac rig or a shorter mast head rig. From my recolection the T35 with the mast head rig was almost always faster. It seemed like the mh rig outpointed and paced the frac rig. Maybe the overlap allowed for a tighter main leech so it to sail with more upwash? The frac T35's were the dogs of the fleet.

A blade may be more efficient then overlap but when part of the "whole" maybe it's not?


8 true, two T-10's, one with a blade and one with a #1. Which one would you prefer to be on?


Not a fair question. Sail area does count as well. Better to say 15 true, Reef and genoa or full main and blade?

Try this situation:

8 true. Two identical hulls. One with a standard rig and a 150 and one with the same sail area in roachy main, taller, flexible mast and blade combination with a barberhauler. Assume both mast positions are optimized for the rig choice. Which would you pick?

I'll take the big main/blade and will outpoint the genoa upwind and sail away from it on a reach or run.

When racing OD, I prefer to change down as soon as I reach the crossover point as I can out point anyone with a genoa while not giving away speed. Below the crossover, sail area counts - even inefficient sail area. I also always change down the headsail before reefing the main.



#52 Presuming Ed

Presuming Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,948 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 20 December 2011 - 06:19 PM

Empirical evidence....

At the eastern end of the Isle of Wight is Bembridge, where the local keelboat class is the Redwing. The rules are interesting, because the hull is one design but the rig design is pretty free. Originally, the rules were that sail area was limited to 200 sq ft, and that was it (it's a no spinnaker class). The rules are still pretty free, but they have banned swing rigs, and masts have to be in alloy.

Currently, the rigs look like this. Nobody has any serious overlap; AIUI some boat have self tacking jibs. In a world of limited power, efficiency is king.

Posted Image

#53 Amati

Amati

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,658 posts
  • Location:Yes!
  • Interests:0 (t) = 0

Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:17 AM

Empirical evidence....

At the eastern end of the Isle of Wight is Bembridge, where the local keelboat class is the Redwing. The rules are interesting, because the hull is one design but the rig design is pretty free. Originally, the rules were that sail area was limited to 200 sq ft, and that was it (it's a no spinnaker class). The rules are still pretty free, but they have banned swing rigs, and masts have to be in alloy.

Currently, the rigs look like this. Nobody has any serious overlap; AIUI some boat have self tacking jibs. In a world of limited power, efficiency is king.

Posted Image



Inspiration for Amati's rig.

:wub:

Based on a real story....

#54 Ishmael

Ishmael

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,286 posts
  • Location:Fuctifino

Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:43 AM

Empirical evidence....

At the eastern end of the Isle of Wight is Bembridge, where the local keelboat class is the Redwing. The rules are interesting, because the hull is one design but the rig design is pretty free. Originally, the rules were that sail area was limited to 200 sq ft, and that was it (it's a no spinnaker class). The rules are still pretty free, but they have banned swing rigs, and masts have to be in alloy.

Currently, the rigs look like this. Nobody has any serious overlap; AIUI some boat have self tacking jibs. In a world of limited power, efficiency is king.

Posted Image


In a world of light air, height is king.

#55 Presuming Ed

Presuming Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,948 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:00 AM

Not always light.


Posted Image


Posted Image


Posted Image


Posted Image


#56 Presuming Ed

Presuming Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,948 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:10 AM

Further empirical evidence. Int 14s, NS 14s, MG14s, National 12s, Merlin Rockets, 18' Skiffs & Thames A raters all have sailplan freedom. None of them sail with genoas.

#57 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:09 AM

It depends. 1 and a tuck vs 3 and none depends on sea state. One of the reasons the j24 hangs onto the 1 is for height and power. I've seen too many times where the 3 is slow and low to believe it's the right sail combo all the time. Flying Dutchman, Thistles designed in the 40's went the other way.

#58 Amati

Amati

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,658 posts
  • Location:Yes!
  • Interests:0 (t) = 0

Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:57 PM

FD has a Genoa. Int 110. Swiss lake cats in reeeeeealy light air. Gentry seemed to like a 165%- something about the Kutta condition at the leech of the genoa interacting at that point flow speed over the leeward side of the main.

But Bethwaite never suggests overlap. Even for downwind sails.

Edit- linky for Gentry

http://www.arvelgent...Sail Theory.pdf

#59 Presuming Ed

Presuming Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,948 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:15 PM

FD has a Genoa.

The FD only has a genoa because in its original iteration, with a jib and no trapeze, it was underpowered. They stuck on the trap and genoa as the easiest way of increasing sail carrying power and sail area.

AFAIAA, leading edge slats don't have overlap.

The swiss lake thing is just a case of more power being quicker than less power, which is fine until you're overpowered. Once they take those things down, they stick up a non-overlapping jib. They don't go for a shorter luffed sail with more overlap.

Of course, it is tricky because of the wind range. Overlap is the easiest way of increasing sail area without increasing mast height (which ventures into righting moment questions). Ideally, I suppose, you would do what the 18's do, and have different rigs for different wind strengths (....none of them with overlap.... :))

#60 Beau.Vrolyk

Beau.Vrolyk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,269 posts
  • Location:San Francisco & Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Sailing on any and everything that floats. Skiing when the rainfall turns semi-solid and white.

Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:57 PM

You guys are missing the obvious solution to getting more mast height when the wind is light. No need to change out the entire rig, the way the 18 do, just set a topmast the way our great grandfather's did!

;)

#61 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,953 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:26 PM

8 true, two T-10's, one with a blade and one with a #1. Which one would you prefer to be on?


Does the T-10 with the genoa get a couple slices taken out of the main, so that the actual SAIL AREA is equal?

FB- Doug

#62 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:19 PM

No, I was trying to make the point you can only go "so high" for the sake of efficiency and as mentioned earlier, sometimes the tuck and a 1 is quicker then the 3 and no tuck.

How would sail a j24 in 17 with chop? A main ragging with a 1 twisted and boarded or the main pressed and the blade? It almost always seems faster to rag and carry on with the genoa.

Not sure if the Redwings are allowed to swap out rigs over the course of a season but it would be an interesting exercise to see how they sailed with a shorter rig and overlap on the windy, choppy days. What does the underwater profile look like? Do they ever go bow down and load the keel?


8 true, two T-10's, one with a blade and one with a #1. Which one would you prefer to be on?


Does the T-10 with the genoa get a couple slices taken out of the main, so that the actual SAIL AREA is equal?

FB- Doug



#63 matoi

matoi

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:40 PM

Perhaps Gentry is a master in some segment of his business but texts on his web site are poorly put together.

#64 islandplanet

islandplanet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:17 AM

He'll likely own her for some time at that price. I sold my 39 ketch (which reportedly sailed a lot better than the schooner) about 11 years ago for $100K and it was low time and well equipped. It even had a sweet Hurricane hydronic system for heat. A 44 sold for about $70K a few years ago in Alameda. You could probably pick one up on the east coast for not much more than half the asking price of that boat. If you're in the market, check out a 44 if you can find one. The market for Freedoms has tanked in recent years.

Tim is the owner of Archangel.

http://ourfreedompro...freedom-39.html

Last I heard he was asking about 115K for her. Private sale. Boat is at Shilshole Marina.

http://www.sailboatl....com/view/16340

I liked the boat, the rig, and the owner. The reasons we didn't follow through?

1) engine access looked like a nightmare.
2) the cabin windows were so crazed that you could not see through them.
3) no heat on the boat -- at all.

For that price, we thought the issues made it a no-go.

Beautiful boat, though.

One thing I noted was how *huge* the mast was as it pierced the main cabin.



#65 Amati

Amati

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,658 posts
  • Location:Yes!
  • Interests:0 (t) = 0

Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:32 AM

FD has a Genoa.

The FD only has a genoa because in its original iteration, with a jib and no trapeze, it was underpowered. They stuck on the trap and genoa as the easiest way of increasing sail carrying power and sail area.

AFAIAA, leading edge slats don't have overlap.

The swiss lake thing is just a case of more power being quicker than less power, which is fine until you're overpowered. Once they take those things down, they stick up a non-overlapping jib. They don't go for a shorter luffed sail with more overlap.

Of course, it is tricky because of the wind range. Overlap is the easiest way of increasing sail area without increasing mast height (which ventures into righting moment questions). Ideally, I suppose, you would do what the 18's do, and have different rigs for different wind strengths (....none of them with overlap.... :))


So what do you think of the Gentry argument that with a 165% jib, pressure recovery stresses the leeward flow on the jib less because the leech of the jib is at the highest velocity stretch of the flow on the leeward side of the main, so the flow doesn't have to slow as much as it would if the leech was in a slower flow regime. This makes me wonder about whether my blade is the way to go, since a non overlapping blade or slightly overlapping blade has it's leach right in the slowest flow around the mast, which would seem to stress the flow on the lee of the jib enough to cause problems, like non reattaching stall. It seems to me that non overlapping flaps on wings are dictated more by structure than aero advantages?

Dunno, I'm going back and forth, but I went with the real world experience of the Redwing of Bembridge class for our boat rather than trying to parce theory. But we do have a jib track that is positioned for a 165% flown from higher up the mast than the current blade. Which would seem to address partially your point about the having more sail area up higher in light air

It's a puzzlement! Any sailmakers out there care to opine? A blade seems to make more sense for an unstayed mast......

Paul

#66 Amati

Amati

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,658 posts
  • Location:Yes!
  • Interests:0 (t) = 0

Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:38 AM

No, I was trying to make the point you can only go "so high" for the sake of efficiency and as mentioned earlier, sometimes the tuck and a 1 is quicker then the 3 and no tuck.

How would sail a j24 in 17 with chop? A main ragging with a 1 twisted and boarded or the main pressed and the blade? It almost always seems faster to rag and carry on with the genoa.

Not sure if the Redwings are allowed to swap out rigs over the course of a season but it would be an interesting exercise to see how they sailed with a shorter rig and overlap on the windy, choppy days. What does the underwater profile look like? Do they ever go bow down and load the keel?



8 true, two T-10's, one with a blade and one with a #1. Which one would you prefer to be on?


Does the T-10 with the genoa get a couple slices taken out of the main, so that the actual SAIL AREA is equal?

FB- Doug


IIRR, the underwater profile is kind of Dragon like.

#67 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,953 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:04 AM

No, I was trying to make the point you can only go "so high" for the sake of efficiency


Not sure I understand you here. There is a limit on how high rigs can be made to stand up, the mast & rigging materials are not infinitely strong. However, for same sail area, a taller mast would have a higher aspect ratio, lower induced drag, and have longer leading edges.... thus generating greater overall lift.

This is not abstract theory, it is long-proven aerodynamic practice. Take a look at glider wings some time.

OTOH if you make a sailboat mast as tall as physically possible to build, then leverage of the sail up high will overpower the boat sooner than a shorter mast with the same sail area. This may be what you are referring to, if so I totally agree. However it still doesn't prove that there is some aerodynamic reason why "genoas are faster," it's just a case of more sail area added onto the same rig.

Let's take two T-10s, keep one with a standard rig and a 155 genny, then put a custom rig on the other with exactly equal sail area in a blade jib configuration... your pick, make the mast taller, make the boom longer & add a stubby bowsprit so the aspect ratio stays the same; or just make the rig taller so that the aspect ratio is higher. Hmm-mm, let's take 3 T-10s and try it both ways.
:P

Now, which boat is faster? The example of many many (I hesitate to say "all" but it's probably true) development classes strongly suggest that the tall mast/hi AR boat would be fastest up to the point where it was heeling too much to drive effectively. Obviously when you have to reef, the taller mast becomes so much parasitic drag.



as mentioned earlier, sometimes the tuck and a 1 is quicker then the 3 and no tuck.


Yep, but it depends VERY much on the boat and the conditions. If the wind is gusty then it's better to be fully powered up in the lulls and flog in the gusts. The bigger sail also adds more drag, so as the wind strength increases you'll reach the point of being unmanageable sooner; that plus tacking with a genoa when it's hairy can be real downer.

OTOH one of my fondest memories of the current boat (Santana 23) is a day race down the river & back with a rising wind that started out at about 10 and got up to 35 fairly steady, chop building eventually to 4~5 ft. We started out with the 155 for obvious reasons, then decided to cary on with it a little more, then realized that changing down would be difficult to the point where we should probably drop out. Meanwhile we were flogging both sails madly in gusts and driving right thru the waves and keeping up with 35-footers crossing tacks down the river. That was an epic sail!

But if the overlap area is what makes a genoa faster than a blade, why does anybody have a blade? Why not just make the luff shorter and put the same area back into an overlap? As a matter of fact, there used to be 'storm genoas' with short luffs, less area, but still overlapping ... haven't seen any advertised lately.

FB- Doug

#68 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:10 PM

The only production boat around here that did something like this is the T35. The boat could be purchased with a tall frac rig or a shorter mast head rig, same sail area. In general, the shorter mast head rig with more overlap was a better, faster all around boat. The only time I ever saw the T35 frac kick up its heels was a close jib reach, other then that it was off the pace.

Anyway, kind of an esoteric hijack of the original post intent, sorry.

Cheers and Happy Holidays to everyone!



Let's take two T-10s, keep one with a standard rig and a 155 genny, then put a custom rig on the other with exactly equal sail area in a blade jib configuration... your pick, make the mast taller, make the boom longer & add a stubby bowsprit so the aspect ratio stays the same; or just make the rig taller so that the aspect ratio is higher. Hmm-mm, let's take 3 T-10s and try it both ways.



#69 Roleur

Roleur

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 709 posts
  • Location:Austin
  • Interests:Pacific Cup 2014

Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:18 PM

The only production boat around here that did something like this is the T35. The boat could be purchased with a tall frac rig or a shorter mast head rig, same sail area. In general, the shorter mast head rig with more overlap was a better, faster all around boat. The only time I ever saw the T35 frac kick up its heels was a close jib reach, other then that it was off the pace.

Anyway, kind of an esoteric hijack of the original post intent, sorry.

Cheers and Happy Holidays to everyone!




Let's take two T-10s, keep one with a standard rig and a 155 genny, then put a custom rig on the other with exactly equal sail area in a blade jib configuration... your pick, make the mast taller, make the boom longer & add a stubby bowsprit so the aspect ratio stays the same; or just make the rig taller so that the aspect ratio is higher. Hmm-mm, let's take 3 T-10s and try it both ways.


What about J-29's? They have both rigs too. I don't know enough about them to know how they perform, but I believe the masthead rig is generally preferred, but that is due to larger kites (I think). Anyone else no more specifics about the J-29 options.

#70 Innocent Bystander

Innocent Bystander

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,413 posts
  • Location:Lower Southern MD

Posted 22 December 2011 - 06:59 PM


The only production boat around here that did something like this is the T35. The boat could be purchased with a tall frac rig or a shorter mast head rig, same sail area. In general, the shorter mast head rig with more overlap was a better, faster all around boat. The only time I ever saw the T35 frac kick up its heels was a close jib reach, other then that it was off the pace.

Anyway, kind of an esoteric hijack of the original post intent, sorry.

Cheers and Happy Holidays to everyone!




Let's take two T-10s, keep one with a standard rig and a 155 genny, then put a custom rig on the other with exactly equal sail area in a blade jib configuration... your pick, make the mast taller, make the boom longer & add a stubby bowsprit so the aspect ratio stays the same; or just make the rig taller so that the aspect ratio is higher. Hmm-mm, let's take 3 T-10s and try it both ways.


What about J-29's? They have both rigs too. I don't know enough about them to know how they perform, but I believe the masthead rig is generally preferred, but that is due to larger kites (I think). Anyone else no more specifics about the J-29 options.


I J P E SA Main SA 100% SA genoa total SA Genoa total SA (100)
J 29 MH 40 12 35 12 210 251 392 602 461
J 29 35 11.5 38.83 13 252 212 345 598 464



J29 class rules allow an LP max of 18.75' for either. SA lines up pretty close. Base boat is MH/OB. 3 sec/mile with frac and no running backstays. 3 sec/mile for an inboard.

Interesting comparison. Looks like J Boats did their level best to make the SA equal for both. MH allows a spin that's 4.4' longer in the luff and only .9' shorter in girth but that's probably balanced by the greater SA of the fractional's main but the MH still has more DW sail area (but not a lot).

Should be a fair comparison upwind.

#71 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,953 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 22 December 2011 - 07:50 PM



The only production boat around here that did something like this is the T35. The boat could be purchased with a tall frac rig or a shorter mast head rig, same sail area. In general, the shorter mast head rig with more overlap was a better, faster all around boat.
... ... ...



Let's take two T-10s, keep one with a standard rig and a 155 genny, then put a custom rig on the other with exactly equal sail area in a blade jib configuration... your pick, make the mast taller, make the boom longer & add a stubby bowsprit so the aspect ratio stays the same; or just make the rig taller so that the aspect ratio is higher. Hmm-mm, let's take 3 T-10s and try it both ways.


What about J-29's? They have both rigs too. I don't know enough about them to know how they perform, but I believe the masthead rig is generally preferred, but that is due to larger kites (I think). Anyone else no more specifics about the J-29 options.



... ... ...
Interesting comparison. Looks like J Boats did their level best to make the SA equal for both. MH allows a spin that's 4.4' longer in the luff and only .9' shorter in girth but that's probably balanced by the greater SA of the fractional's main but the MH still has more DW sail area (but not a lot).

Should be a fair comparison upwind.


I raced a MH J-29 for a couple years (OPB) and the mastheads were definitely faster downwind. The common explanation is greater sail area but it sounds like they're pretty close.

Upwind results were spotty. I grew up sailing dinghies and prefer fracs, but they reward a very active sailing style. The J-29 fracs show bursts of greater speed but generally drop a little upwind to the MH rigs also. I got the feeling that if a J-29 frac skipper & crew really worked up a full court press, they couold beat the MH upwind.

Good counter examples. Another is the Santana 35 / Schock 35, although the Schock 35 is lighter and has different keel, but it's hard to see how slight differences make a ~30 point difference in rating.

Gentlemen, I apologize for the hijack. This is cruising anarchy. Let us not bicker and argue about who killed who oops which rig is more aerodynamically efficient.

FB- Doug

#72 SailAR

SailAR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 08:02 PM

http://www.oceannavi...gs-voyage-ready

They were selling the Hall J90 with the freestanding wing mast a while ago. Seems like they will eventually get there.

A lot of the hijack/discussion on efficient sailplans/rigs, seems to be a horses for courses argument. Depends on the situation. Utlimately, flexibility in sailplan for varying conditions should win out here in Cruising Anarchy, where more specialized applications for specific race needs will push on specific opportunities.

#73 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,497 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 23 December 2011 - 03:28 PM

Van de Stadt has some material on a freestanding rig here:

http://www.stadtdesi...g_rig/swing_rig

#74 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 23 December 2011 - 08:24 PM

Although they are similar, sharing some tooling, the Schock 35 is a vastly different boat then the Santana 35. The Schock is 1700 pounds heavier, has a longer waterline a mast head rig and 150 sq ft more sail. The net effect; the Schock rated a minute a mile faster then the Santana.

A closer comparison would be S35 to the J35. The S35 was 3 feet taller, both had 4500 ballast but the J was 500 pounds heavier. The Schock was quicker in the light chop up or down, the J ruled most reaching conditions and both rated 68~72. It was always good racing between these two designs.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1280
http://www.wdschock.com/boats/schock35/s35_specs.htm
http://www.jboats.com/j35/j35specs.htm

Good counter examples. Another is the Santana 35 / Schock 35, although the Schock 35 is lighter and has different keel, but it's hard to see how slight differences make a ~30 point difference in rating.FB- Doug



#75 kdh

kdh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,552 posts
  • Location:narragansett bay

Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:20 PM

Overlapped sail area is the least efficient, and least effective at driving the boat.

I did a lot of reading about the Kutta condition and other things and this is all I ended up learning. My 135% on a masthead rig is a powerful sail, even without the main. When I'm overpowered the boat heels more. Problem solved.

Trouble is the guests are spilling their drinks. When the breeze freshens further I roll the genoa up while marveling at the huge tension on the sheet. The sail shape is now an embarrassment and I've lost my ability to point. But oh, in light air, in light air... It's still a piece of shit because it's too heavy to trim well. It's a stupid sail for me.

Can't believe people used to sail my boat with a 160% roller furling genoa.

#76 kdh

kdh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,552 posts
  • Location:narragansett bay

Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:57 PM


Overlapped sail area is the least efficient, and least effective at driving the boat.

I did a lot of reading about the Kutta condition and other things and this is all I ended up learning. My 135% on a masthead rig is a powerful sail, even without the main. When I'm overpowered the boat heels more. Problem solved.

Trouble is the guests are spilling their drinks. When the breeze freshens further I roll the genoa up while marveling at the huge tension on the sheet. The sail shape is now an embarrassment and I've lost my ability to point. But oh, in light air, in light air... It's still a piece of shit because it's too heavy to trim well. It's a stupid sail for me.

Can't believe people used to sail my boat with a 160% roller furling genoa.

By the way, I went with a 115 to replace the 135. Just enough overlap with the main to act as a single foil. With the 135 well trimmed upwind the luff of the main used to "breathe" to about 2 feet back. I suspect I won't get that any more but will have similar power, at least for cruising purposes. I had a little room to extend the roach on the main, did that too. We'll see. If I need more in light air I'm going to add a light 145 or thereabouts to the inventory and just run it up the foil groove.

#77 Magnum Opus

Magnum Opus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 78 posts

Posted 25 December 2011 - 02:06 AM

Trouble is the guests are spilling their drinks.

Now I prefer free standing rigd from an aesthetic view, but regardless if you're guests are spilling their drinks... you need new friends. Practiced alch-ys can take a martini on a roller coaster with out spilling a drop. And you shouldn't trust anyone that can't

#78 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 25 December 2011 - 02:45 PM

A few things I recommend now about building a free standing rigged boat. Say 35 to 68 ft. The longest I did.
1) Have 2 masts. Equal in size, length and structually equal.
2) The Cat-Ketch or " French schooner" meaning 2 masts of same height are necessary to expose as much sail area as possible.
3) The masts should be located somewhat like the old classic schooners; At Sta. 2 and Sta. 6 (60% of LWL.) In other words as far aft as possible.
4) The masts; Preferably built composite with carbon; Next choise wood. Last aluminum.
5) With composite construction, the boat can take advantage of weight savings to reduce the draft significantly; say, just under 5ft for a 45 footer.
6) For triming the sails. Basically 2 options. whishbones or regular booms. Maybe one boomless sail forward.
7) I favor a small jib.
8) A staysail between the masts.
9) Reefing lines. Triple reef aft.
10) All for now.

#79 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 27 December 2011 - 03:58 PM

10) I favor round tubes for mast. We are talking about cruising boats.
11) I have done wing masts. But unless you want to permanently control the angle to the wind, forget it.
12) With round spar, mast rotation is a lot simpler.
13) The "Look"is the look. Flaunt it, or install false spreaders.
14) To " Pee" or not to pee is a matter to deal with a proper pushpit. Not the lack of backstay.

#80 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 29 December 2011 - 04:42 PM

Empirical evidence....

At the eastern end of the Isle of Wight is Bembridge, where the local keelboat class is the Redwing. The rules are interesting, because the hull is one design but the rig design is pretty free. Originally, the rules were that sail area was limited to 200 sq ft, and that was it (it's a no spinnaker class). The rules are still pretty free, but they have banned swing rigs, and masts have to be in alloy.

Currently, the rigs look like this. Nobody has any serious overlap; AIUI some boat have self tacking jibs. In a world of limited power, efficiency is king.


Yes, but designing to an arbitrary limit on total square feet is still designing to a rule. The results speak to efficiency under that rule, not necessarily to efficiency under considerations other than that numeric approach.

If not concerned about rules, the things experienced are drive vs heeling force, pointing and off-the-wind-ability, maybe ease of handling the sails if shorthanded, maybe cost of sails... Not so much what the specs say about total square feet.

For example, for a given amount of heeling force, does having some overlap and a slightly shorter rig with same aspect ratio main allow more power? If so, if that perspective for example is where one is coming from then, or some other perspective, perhaps some overlap is more "efficient?"

#81 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,497 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 29 December 2011 - 05:44 PM

Yes, but designing to an arbitrary limit on total square feet is still designing to a rule.


Mathematically speaking, you can only optimize one thing at a time, so practically speaking, you are always designing to a rule, even if the rule is fuzzy, unspecific, or poorly defined, like "maximize customer satisfaction."

You are right, though, that the focus on square feet of sail area is arbitrary. IIRC, the rules for the Delaware River Tuckups limited the perimeter of the sail, which leads to square planforms. I've wondered about setting limits on the height of the rig, which, if stringent enough, might make gaff sails competitive. Following up on your notion, you could set a limit =(sail area times the height of the center of area above the waterline) as a crude limit on heeling force.

#82 trenace

trenace

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,282 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:09 PM

Yes, but designing to an arbitrary limit on total square feet is still designing to a rule.


Mathematically speaking, you can only optimize one thing at a time, so practically speaking, you are always designing to a rule, even if the rule is fuzzy, unspecific, or poorly defined, like "maximize customer satisfaction."


Agreed.

And while "maximize customer satisfaction" doesn't exist as a single thing encompassing everybody, or anything like, it surely is important to each owner, though not really subject to a formula.

I was mostly meaning that optimization to a specific numerical limit, such as total sail area, really doesn't necessarily have any special truth. So to me, looking to what sail plans result under a given racing rule to design a boat not racing under that rule doesn't particularly follow. It might seem that the formula finds some natural truth, but it may not.

Anyway I like low to no overlap so so I won't worry about it, but then for example I find myself learning when Marstrom says, in a case where he had a clean sheet of paper and no rules, that the unirig (with rotating mast) was most efficient, so it's going to be complex.

#83 Great Red Shark

Great Red Shark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,618 posts
  • Location:Honolulu

Posted 04 January 2012 - 02:17 AM

Been really digging that Presto that's recetnly been introduced, but haven't seen it in person - just like sharpies for some reason. Anybody get to sail one yet ?

#84 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:14 PM

Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.

#85 islandplanet

islandplanet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:13 PM

Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?

#86 Ryley

Ryley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,039 posts
  • Location:Boston, MA
  • Interests:Sailing, Photography, Sailing, Mountain Biking.. did I mention sailing?

Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:03 PM


Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?



Same with our Freedom 40. In flat water we tacked through 90 degrees, in chop it was more like 100. but on any angle where the sails were efficient, it was f-a-s-t. I think a small jib like the one added to Frog Kiss would have helped, but also added complexity that we really weren't interested in. At the risk of raising Bob's ire, have you looked at the 'expeditions' that sponberg has drawn?

#87 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,497 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:06 PM

Been really digging that Presto that's recently been introduced, but haven't seen it in person - just like sharpies for some reason. Anybody get to sail one yet ?


I assume you mean the one by Roger Martin, built by Ryder boats. I think it looks pretty neat but as our resident guru often says, there is no substitute for draft. So, while it will sail upwind (watch below), I would expect that won't be anywhere near as fast upwind as a keel boat. I'd be happy to hear otherwise. If you're not racing (formally or informally), you probably won't notice. And you may not care. Or you may care, but accept it for the boat's other considerable virtues.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZdYkAIdkuJo"

#88 Great Red Shark

Great Red Shark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,618 posts
  • Location:Honolulu

Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:34 PM

Thanks, hadn't seen that. The fore looks like hell in some of that footage, the sheeting arrangement looks pretty kludged, and the motor well REALLY intrudes in the cockpit more than is shows on the plans - but I still kinda like it. Not that I'm running out to order one - limited draft isn't of much use here. Once you are outside the reef it's not a factor.

#89 Thorvald

Thorvald

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • Location:Puget Sound

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:31 PM



Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?



Same with our Freedom 40. In flat water we tacked through 90 degrees, in chop it was more like 100. but on any angle where the sails were efficient, it was f-a-s-t. I think a small jib like the one added to Frog Kiss would have helped, but also added complexity that we really weren't interested in. At the risk of raising Bob's ire, have you looked at the 'expeditions' that sponberg has drawn?

Butt f'ugly. Just my $.02.

#90 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 05 January 2012 - 04:27 PM

Attached File  MagieNoireUpWind.jpg   144.94K   46 downloads


Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?

The 1983 68Ft. Magie Noire.
I would not call her "Expedition" in the fact she was not designed to brush icebergs. She is simply an U.L.D.B Charter boat crossing the Atlantic twice a year. I counted 21 crossings in her first ten years.

#91 Salazar

Salazar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 825 posts
  • Location:Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, Canada
  • Interests:Sailing, Photography, Stage Lighting, etc.

Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:02 PM

Attached File  MagieNoireUpWind.jpg   144.94K   46 downloads



Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.

We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?

The 1983 68Ft. Magie Noire.
I would not call her "Expedition" in the fact she was not designed to brush icebergs. She is simply an U.L.D.B Charter boat crossing the Atlantic twice a year. I counted 21 crossings in her first ten years.

Yves (or anyone else who knows),
Do you know what those blue panels on the sails are called? They look like an attempt to turn a soft sail into a wing.

Edit: Note to self, Google before asking questions. So Magie-Noire has wing masts, reef-able ones as well. Hmm.

Posted Image

Posted Image


#92 Samba301

Samba301

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Newport, RI

Posted 05 January 2012 - 09:39 PM



Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?



Same with our Freedom 40. In flat water we tacked through 90 degrees, in chop it was more like 100. but on any angle where the sails were efficient, it was f-a-s-t. I think a small jib like the one added to Frog Kiss would have helped, but also added complexity that we really weren't interested in. At the risk of raising Bob's ire, have you looked at the 'expeditions' that sponberg has drawn?



So I got a little bored at work this afternoon and decided to search a few topics of interest, one being "Frog Kiss"...my parents previous and beloved Cat Ketch Freedom 44. Funny to read a little bit about ones boat. I have a Quest 30 now "Samba"....and I'm a newbie so feel free to tell me to f off or whatever...but a great boat and great rig! Ryley, do you own the 40 in Charlestown? I'm in the northend. - Tristan

#93 islandplanet

islandplanet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:17 PM




Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?



Same with our Freedom 40. In flat water we tacked through 90 degrees, in chop it was more like 100. but on any angle where the sails were efficient, it was f-a-s-t. I think a small jib like the one added to Frog Kiss would have helped, but also added complexity that we really weren't interested in. At the risk of raising Bob's ire, have you looked at the 'expeditions' that sponberg has drawn?



So I got a little bored at work this afternoon and decided to search a few topics of interest, one being "Frog Kiss"...my parents previous and beloved Cat Ketch Freedom 44. Funny to read a little bit about ones boat. I have a Quest 30 now "Samba"....and I'm a newbie so feel free to tell me to f off or whatever...but a great boat and great rig! Ryley, do you own the 40 in Charlestown? I'm in the northend. - Tristan


Samba,

It's been some years but I enjoyed the opportunity to talk to your Dad about his mods to Frog Kiss and talked to your uncle about another project. You've got good genetics for sailing. Have fun with that Quest. They look like a sweet boat but I've never had the chance to check one out.

#94 SailAR

SailAR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 766 posts

Posted 06 January 2012 - 01:59 AM




Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?



Same with our Freedom 40. In flat water we tacked through 90 degrees, in chop it was more like 100. but on any angle where the sails were efficient, it was f-a-s-t. I think a small jib like the one added to Frog Kiss would have helped, but also added complexity that we really weren't interested in. At the risk of raising Bob's ire, have you looked at the 'expeditions' that sponberg has drawn?



So I got a little bored at work this afternoon and decided to search a few topics of interest, one being "Frog Kiss"...my parents previous and beloved Cat Ketch Freedom 44. Funny to read a little bit about ones boat. I have a Quest 30 now "Samba"....and I'm a newbie so feel free to tell me to f off or whatever...but a great boat and great rig! Ryley, do you own the 40 in Charlestown? I'm in the northend. - Tristan


Did you buy her from Phil? Fantastic boat. Congrats!

#95 Samba301

Samba301

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Newport, RI

Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:32 PM

Samba,

It's been some years but I enjoyed the opportunity to talk to your Dad about his mods to Frog Kiss and talked to your uncle about another project. You've got good genetics for sailing. Have fun with that Quest. They look like a sweet boat but I've never had the chance to check one out.
[/quote]


Thank you, she's been an awesome boat for me so far. If you're ever in Newport look me up and we can go for a sail.

I miss Frog Kiss though! She was a special boat.

#96 Samba301

Samba301

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Newport, RI

Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:34 PM





Asking how to sail a cat-ketch?
On the 50ft. Millenium Falcon, Gerald the owner said. They can sail at 75% of wind speed in any wind over 4 knots. I am sure there is a limit . Ah! Ah! He sails M-F more like a catamaran than an mono-hull, in that they trade pointing angle for speed.


We had to do that with our Freedom 39. Cat ketches definitely don't like pinching.
Yves, have you designed any expedition yachts with freestanding rig?



Same with our Freedom 40. In flat water we tacked through 90 degrees, in chop it was more like 100. but on any angle where the sails were efficient, it was f-a-s-t. I think a small jib like the one added to Frog Kiss would have helped, but also added complexity that we really weren't interested in. At the risk of raising Bob's ire, have you looked at the 'expeditions' that sponberg has drawn?



So I got a little bored at work this afternoon and decided to search a few topics of interest, one being "Frog Kiss"...my parents previous and beloved Cat Ketch Freedom 44. Funny to read a little bit about ones boat. I have a Quest 30 now "Samba"....and I'm a newbie so feel free to tell me to f off or whatever...but a great boat and great rig! Ryley, do you own the 40 in Charlestown? I'm in the northend. - Tristan


Did you buy her from Phil? Fantastic boat. Congrats!



Thank you, I felt pretty lucky to end up with this particular Quest. There was one owner between Phil and I....but yes, it is Phil's old boat. Maybe a Quest with a free standing rig someday.........hmmmmm

#97 DDW

DDW

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,065 posts

Posted 06 January 2012 - 09:16 PM

Been away for a while, a little late to the party, but I will chip in with the experience on my boat:

My boat seems to point at similar angles to a similarly purposed modern sloop. It will demonstrably outpoint a Freedom. Apparent wind about 28-29 deg.

The rig is no more expensive that a stayed rig (perhaps less), provided we are not talking about a bargain basement rig. The mast is more, but that is essentially all you have to pay for. It is lighter than the equivalent sloop rig, and the center of gravity is significantly lower.

Difficult to prove, but I think it is substantially more reliable. The single failure mode is catastrophic, but the multitudes of failure modes on a stayed sloop - for which quick action might save the rig - do not exist. On a convention rig, the mast can fail, and at least a hundred other things can fail to endanger the mast. On the unstayed rig, the mast can fail though this is historically quite unlikely. Most marconi rig failures are due to parts that do not exist on the unstayed mast.

The step and partners are no more difficult to engineer, and no heavier, than the step and chainplates on a stayed sloop. The windward chainplate load is just about identical to the partners lateral load, occur in about the same place, are of the same magnitude. There are no stays to have to worry about, no bending load on the hull to be resisted. It is easier to engineer than a marconi rig.

Mast whip is not an issue with a properly designed carbon spar. It is quite stiff for its weight. Much more of a problem on an aluminum spar.

Repair in remote places is similar in most respects with a marconi sloop, since most of the parts are common: sails, sail handling hardware, running rigging, etc. In the case of catastrophic failure of the mast in a remote location, you are going to have to get one shipped in in either case. On the marconi, you may have more bits to salvage and jury rig with, however anyone that sees that as likely really should watch the YW videos on the subject.

Windage forward docking is an occasional minor annoyance, even on my cat yawl. A una rig has a distinct problem with sailing at anchor that can be a major annoyance. My yawl is rock steady at anchor with some mizzen set, much steadier than any sloop in the anchorage.

Sail can be added downwind (we can set 2400 sq ft on our 45') but it is less often necessary. Many of the downwind sails on a marconi sloop are there to compensate for the inherent inefficiency of the rig off the wind: jib is poorly shaped and blanketed, main cannot be eased for proper trim.

I think a key to performance is a square head or large roached sail. much more so in the bald headed rig than it is on a sloop. There are odd interference effects between jib and main that correct some of the span wise loading issues of each sail alone, this opportunity does not exist on the cat rig so proper planform becomes more desirable. Large roaches or square heads do not lend themselves as easily to wishbone, because of insufficient luff tension (unless strong enough to withstand a vang).

There are issues about where to fly the courtesy flag, Q flag, any flag at all. Spreader lights are a problem. SSB antenna is a problem. On the other hand, I have discovered that birds prefer to crap on the deck of a marconi sloop....

#98 islandplanet

islandplanet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:49 PM

DDW,

What sort of boat do you have? Do you have a blog or links to some photos or information?

#99 Salazar

Salazar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 825 posts
  • Location:Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, Canada
  • Interests:Sailing, Photography, Stage Lighting, etc.

Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:08 PM

DDW,

What sort of boat do you have? Do you have a blog or links to some photos or information?

I know this one!

Posted Image

Anomaly is a "Cat Ketch", custom built by Bruckmann Yachts from a design by Mark Ellis (of Nonsuch fame, etc.) with much input from her owner.
This is DDW's boat: http://yachtanomaly.blogspot.com/
and: http://yachtanomaly.wordpress.com/
and: http://forums.sailin...1

Posted Image

#100 Ryley

Ryley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,039 posts
  • Location:Boston, MA
  • Interests:Sailing, Photography, Sailing, Mountain Biking.. did I mention sailing?

Posted 09 January 2012 - 02:41 PM

Tristan,
I had the 40 in Charlestown, but I "upgraded" to a 45. We're under the fairclough cover on the dock next to the hotel. Stop by some time.

Lance

Btw, I sailed on a Quest 30 in LI called One Ring Circus a couple years ago. pretty cool boats. Holby built my Elliott hull too.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users