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#101 DoRag

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 04:32 PM


Although it's almost an aside, the yacht clubs could be the greatest force for change in our sport. I certainly understand why a concerted effort would be made to try to get them on board to grow the sport. Because of Garys' most frequent contact with those clubs, I can understand why he would think they are pro growth. The sad truth is that in many cases they are pro growth as long as we do it our way. The focus has shifted from attracting competitors to preserving the status and structure of the organizing authority.

I give Gary a big bow for trying. However, the attempt was doomed.


Phoenix,

I have observed that Yacht Clubs, if you also include community sailing organizations and other groups like them, are the folks causing change and improving things. As more of them collapse in the face of shrinking membership with the changing demographics they are adapting. There are all sorts of out-reach and community-sailing programs showing up that would have been impossible a decade ago. There has also been a major generational shift in the top dogs at these clubs over the last ten years as the Boomers have moved into positions of power in even the most conservative and hidebound clubs. Change is coming, but it's slow.

US Sailing isn't any part of this, which is sad because it could be. However, I seriously doubt that it would make much difference either way. The hard work of building up a new generation of sailors falls primarily to those who actually sail and who reach out to include new people in our sport. That's done on a dock someplace where someone offers to invest time and effort in helping a beginner learn to sail, gets them interested, and brings them along. It tends not to happen in large national organizations. Could US Sailing offer some help with this? Sure. Do they do much? Not enough, IMHO.

Gary has visited and worked with a lot more clubs than his predecessor, including the Summit which a number of the members of clubs I work with attended and really enjoyed. Could Gary get the power based in US Sailing moved back to the Clubs and out of the hands of the Board? Certainly not easily. The bylaws (as DB has explained quite well) make that sort of change slow and painful. But, it probably doesn't matter all that much. Part of the reason I gave Gary a "B" as a grade was precisely his attempt to recognize officially through US Sailing what is obviously the case in the world - Clubs are the center of gravity of our sport, not US Sailing.

Clubs will either evolve or die. Some of the better ones are evolving quite well, others are fading away. Evolution at work.

BV


Hey, I see you are still campaigning for a seat on the USSA Board.......

#102 Adam9066

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:04 PM


Although it's almost an aside, the yacht clubs could be the greatest force for change in our sport. I certainly understand why a concerted effort would be made to try to get them on board to grow the sport. Because of Garys' most frequent contact with those clubs, I can understand why he would think they are pro growth. The sad truth is that in many cases they are pro growth as long as we do it our way. The focus has shifted from attracting competitors to preserving the status and structure of the organizing authority.

I give Gary a big bow for trying. However, the attempt was doomed.


Phoenix,

I have observed that Yacht Clubs, if you also include community sailing organizations and other groups like them, are the folks causing change and improving things. As more of them collapse in the face of shrinking membership with the changing demographics they are adapting. There are all sorts of out-reach and community-sailing programs showing up that would have been impossible a decade ago. There has also been a major generational shift in the top dogs at these clubs over the last ten years as the Boomers have moved into positions of power in even the most conservative and hidebound clubs. Change is coming, but it's slow.

US Sailing isn't any part of this, which is sad because it could be. However, I seriously doubt that it would make much difference either way. The hard work of building up a new generation of sailors falls primarily to those who actually sail and who reach out to include new people in our sport. That's done on a dock someplace where someone offers to invest time and effort in helping a beginner learn to sail, gets them interested, and brings them along. It tends not to happen in large national organizations. Could US Sailing offer some help with this? Sure. Do they do much? Not enough, IMHO.

Gary has visited and worked with a lot more clubs than his predecessor, including the Summit which a number of the members of clubs I work with attended and really enjoyed. Could Gary get the power based in US Sailing moved back to the Clubs and out of the hands of the Board? Certainly not easily. The bylaws (as DB has explained quite well) make that sort of change slow and painful. But, it probably doesn't matter all that much. Part of the reason I gave Gary a "B" as a grade was precisely his attempt to recognize officially through US Sailing what is obviously the case in the world - Clubs are the center of gravity of our sport, not US Sailing.

Clubs will either evolve or die. Some of the better ones are evolving quite well, others are fading away. Evolution at work.

BV


I went to two yacht clubs last summer and had horrible experiences. I didn't fit their mold so they wanted no part of me. To me they seem to be more about socializing high society then about sailing and racing. I went to a marina and had hooked up with a couple of sailors who also had bad experiences. We set up our own informal PHRF . I am 27 i got involved with sailing and dragged a few friends with me. prior to that i dont know any one else that sailed nor do i know any one that i didn't meet through the Mariana and the people at it. Maybe Its just who i know but i don't see how a sport can survive with out brings a younger generation in. Yacht clubs should be the people doing this by providing lessons and affordable docking/mornings not about creating a high society social spot. I will continue to boycott yacht clubs and there events.

#103 tikipete

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:09 PM

Observation: as the sport grays, more time is spent drinking and less time is spent sailing. I'm guessing most of that "socializing" included booze.

As it happens I like making and sharing GPS tracks. Aren't we to the point where we can sail without a committee or marks? Just put in some way points at the skipper's meeting and have at it.

#104 jocal505

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:22 PM

Mr. Vrolyk.
With all respect, you may call me Forrest Gump. Or you man call me Chancy Gardener. Or you may call me Mickey Mouse.
You may call me Delta Blues or you man call me DoRag.
But the quality of my words and thoughts, in the end, is what you shall deal with.

#105 us7070

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:53 PM



Although it's almost an aside, the yacht clubs could be the greatest force for change in our sport. I certainly understand why a concerted effort would be made to try to get them on board to grow the sport. Because of Garys' most frequent contact with those clubs, I can understand why he would think they are pro growth. The sad truth is that in many cases they are pro growth as long as we do it our way. The focus has shifted from attracting competitors to preserving the status and structure of the organizing authority.

I give Gary a big bow for trying. However, the attempt was doomed.


Phoenix,

I have observed that Yacht Clubs, if you also include community sailing organizations and other groups like them, are the folks causing change and improving things. As more of them collapse in the face of shrinking membership with the changing demographics they are adapting. There are all sorts of out-reach and community-sailing programs showing up that would have been impossible a decade ago. There has also been a major generational shift in the top dogs at these clubs over the last ten years as the Boomers have moved into positions of power in even the most conservative and hidebound clubs. Change is coming, but it's slow.

US Sailing isn't any part of this, which is sad because it could be. However, I seriously doubt that it would make much difference either way. The hard work of building up a new generation of sailors falls primarily to those who actually sail and who reach out to include new people in our sport. That's done on a dock someplace where someone offers to invest time and effort in helping a beginner learn to sail, gets them interested, and brings them along. It tends not to happen in large national organizations. Could US Sailing offer some help with this? Sure. Do they do much? Not enough, IMHO.

Gary has visited and worked with a lot more clubs than his predecessor, including the Summit which a number of the members of clubs I work with attended and really enjoyed. Could Gary get the power based in US Sailing moved back to the Clubs and out of the hands of the Board? Certainly not easily. The bylaws (as DB has explained quite well) make that sort of change slow and painful. But, it probably doesn't matter all that much. Part of the reason I gave Gary a "B" as a grade was precisely his attempt to recognize officially through US Sailing what is obviously the case in the world - Clubs are the center of gravity of our sport, not US Sailing.

Clubs will either evolve or die. Some of the better ones are evolving quite well, others are fading away. Evolution at work.

BV


I went to two yacht clubs last summer and had horrible experiences. I didn't fit their mold so they wanted no part of me. To me they seem to be more about socializing high society then about sailing and racing. I went to a marina and had hooked up with a couple of sailors who also had bad experiences. We set up our own informal PHRF . I am 27 i got involved with sailing and dragged a few friends with me. prior to that i dont know any one else that sailed nor do i know any one that i didn't meet through the Mariana and the people at it. Maybe Its just who i know but i don't see how a sport can survive with out brings a younger generation in. Yacht clubs should be the people doing this by providing lessons and affordable docking/mornings not about creating a high society social spot. I will continue to boycott yacht clubs and there events.


it's unfortunate that you couldn't find a club in which you felt comfortable.

but, i don't think every club necessarily needs to appeal to the greatest number of people.

after all, they are _private_ clubs, and it's ok that different clubs appeal to different types of people.

the great thing is that there are many many clubs, each with their own feel, and in general, there is enough variety out there that everyone can find a home.

i think it would actually be worse for sailing, if all the clubs were the same, and tried to appeal to the same demographic.

i belong to two clubs, one is quite simple, and extremely inexpensive.

the other is one that i'm sure you would hate - it's expensive, and, i'll admit, has a reputation for being snobby (although the reality is a bit different), there are extensive dining facilities, and members often wear blazers. we just had probably the best year for membership since i joined, about 10 years ago - and many of the new members are young. nearly all new members are active sailors. we have a a fair number of members who don't sail much - some are older, but sailed when they were young. now they play bridge, and dine (are we supposed to kick them out?). i think it's great that these members - many in their 80's, who were members since before i was born, still come to the club. some of the non-sailors are legacies, who probably transitioned in as jr members years ago. they help pay the bills.

anyway, there's nothing wrong with a little variety.

i can also assure you that if you ever decide to end your boycott, you would absolutely be welcome at our regattas.

#106 Phoenix

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:02 PM

My comment had more to do with being a force for growing the sport than general acceptability of the larger clubs. Certainly the larger better equipped clubs are wonderful organizations that can have a lot to offer, including sailing. However, the times when they will lead the charge toward change are few and far between. What can and will happen is that a particularly interested member of a larger club can organize a group of those members to do something really worthwhile. The worthwhile undertaking rarely takes place under the umbrella of the club.

#107 DoRag

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:47 PM

Mr. Vrolyk.
With all respect, you may call me Forrest Gump. Or you man call me Chancy Gardener. Or you may call me Mickey Mouse.
You may call me Delta Blues or you man call me DoRag.
But the quality of my words and thoughts, in the end, is what you shall deal with.


Spartacus??????

#108 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:47 AM



...snip...

Well said.

I would add that SAers were very impressive with their support of MSG as she goes through her trials. That support, financial and otherwise, from a bunch of "annonymous trolls" (as Faux Bro Beau continually rants), speaks very well for the sailing community and the comraderie of racers.

Hard to see that coming from the blue blazers at USSA.......


Rag,

Do you personally or professionally have any factual information about personal donations or support to charity coming from the senior folks at US Sailing or are you just blowing gas out your ass to make yourself feel better and make a point? If so, post it or STFU.

Of course, you can "investigate" the senior people at US Sailing and elsewhere because you know their names. You, however, can't be investigated, because you are hiding.

The efforts to help MSG are terrific and have nothing whatsoever to do with the point of this thread, but that sort of non-sequitor is ignored frequently by you when you're in the "blowing gas" mode. MSG is a terrific person and a lot of us have attempted to help her with support of all sorts. So exactly what has that to do with Gary, other than as a feeble attempt by you to insult these folks without a single fact to support your claim.

Get out from behind your shield of anonymity when you insult the generosity of others. If you don't, the term "coward" will continue to apply quite well, despite your frequent unverifyable posts implying personal valor on the field of battle and your own generocity.

BV


Ah yes, more of the pretentious, condesending drivel from the big mouth of a small person without the chops.

This is a racing site. And if you take the time to read the posting guidelines you would find that your pathetic, consistent mid fleet finishes in an amateur fleet do not qualify you to rant on anything.

You also violate the height restrictions as the SA Rules clearly state you need to be at least 5' 6" in order to post here. The ED in intited that qualification so as to avoid the rants of little people who have issues with their stature and tend to be overly aggresive and obnoxious. Like you.

As to academic qualifications, well, you know that attending a Cal State simply doesn't quite cut it. Nor does not engaging in an athletic endeavor in college - and no, fencing and sailing don't cut it, much like the bowling and knitting teams don't cut it. Perhaps this is why you fail to see the connection between my response to Clean's post and how MSG benefitted from the sailing community. Try harder, I know it's not easy for you.

And your comments regarding my military service mirror the NorCal attitude about serving one's country, as much as they underscore your total lack of understanding of what it means to actually serve in the front. And, no, I never implied valor - I simply say I served. At the front. Which I did. Valor is for those that didn't make it back - something you do not understand.

And last, when are you going to understand that perhaps 98% of SA posters chose to assume a name? Just like virtually all sites of this nature. The fact that you don't like that is irrelevent. Just as you life appears to have been. And if you don't like it, why don't you go someplace else?


Rag,

You pitiful blowhard. You didn't answer the one question which required you to state a fact. I'll repeat it, as you clearly want to duck it. Do you have any knowlege of the donations made by the "blue blazers" (to use your phrase) at US Sailing. Or, are you just blowing gas out like normal? All that bull shit that you just spewed in a lame attempt to insult me and change the topic has no effect. It should be obvious to you that I don't care what you say.

Answer the question. Or, you could admit you're wrong and just blowing gas like you usually do.

You accused the folks at US Sailing of not making charitable donations, you accused the leadership personally. Document it.

Given your response, I'm betting there is not one shred of fact behind what you've said, otherwise why the long bloated rant about me personally, is that weak response as good as it gets? Sad, really sad. I get an absolute KICK out of triggering this sort of childish rant from you, it's frigging hysterical!! Rant on, Rag.

As to your other comment about me wanting to run for some job at US Sailing, again you've no frigging idea how wrong you are, but that hasn't slowed you down in the past - no reason it should now. Are you always this wrong about people? It must be a challenge to be wrong this often.

BV

#109 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 07:04 AM



Although it's almost an aside, the yacht clubs could be the greatest force for change in our sport. I certainly understand why a concerted effort would be made to try to get them on board to grow the sport. Because of Garys' most frequent contact with those clubs, I can understand why he would think they are pro growth. The sad truth is that in many cases they are pro growth as long as we do it our way. The focus has shifted from attracting competitors to preserving the status and structure of the organizing authority.

I give Gary a big bow for trying. However, the attempt was doomed.


Phoenix,

I have observed that Yacht Clubs, if you also include community sailing organizations and other groups like them, are the folks causing change and improving things. As more of them collapse in the face of shrinking membership with the changing demographics they are adapting. There are all sorts of out-reach and community-sailing programs showing up that would have been impossible a decade ago. There has also been a major generational shift in the top dogs at these clubs over the last ten years as the Boomers have moved into positions of power in even the most conservative and hidebound clubs. Change is coming, but it's slow.

US Sailing isn't any part of this, which is sad because it could be. However, I seriously doubt that it would make much difference either way. The hard work of building up a new generation of sailors falls primarily to those who actually sail and who reach out to include new people in our sport. That's done on a dock someplace where someone offers to invest time and effort in helping a beginner learn to sail, gets them interested, and brings them along. It tends not to happen in large national organizations. Could US Sailing offer some help with this? Sure. Do they do much? Not enough, IMHO.

Gary has visited and worked with a lot more clubs than his predecessor, including the Summit which a number of the members of clubs I work with attended and really enjoyed. Could Gary get the power based in US Sailing moved back to the Clubs and out of the hands of the Board? Certainly not easily. The bylaws (as DB has explained quite well) make that sort of change slow and painful. But, it probably doesn't matter all that much. Part of the reason I gave Gary a "B" as a grade was precisely his attempt to recognize officially through US Sailing what is obviously the case in the world - Clubs are the center of gravity of our sport, not US Sailing.

Clubs will either evolve or die. Some of the better ones are evolving quite well, others are fading away. Evolution at work.

BV


I went to two yacht clubs last summer and had horrible experiences. I didn't fit their mold so they wanted no part of me. To me they seem to be more about socializing high society then about sailing and racing. I went to a marina and had hooked up with a couple of sailors who also had bad experiences. We set up our own informal PHRF . I am 27 i got involved with sailing and dragged a few friends with me. prior to that i dont know any one else that sailed nor do i know any one that i didn't meet through the Mariana and the people at it. Maybe Its just who i know but i don't see how a sport can survive with out brings a younger generation in. Yacht clubs should be the people doing this by providing lessons and affordable docking/mornings not about creating a high society social spot. I will continue to boycott yacht clubs and there events.


Adam,

Like 7070, who posted earlier, I also belong to two clubs and one sailing association. One of the Yacht Clubs has only one room which everyone shares and is not pretentious in the slightest. It is inexpensive and very much a local small town sort of place. The other Yacht Club is large, quite successful and can be stuffy. The big stuffy one has better food and much nicer regattas and the smaller one is more comfortable and has kids running around in the only room. Both places have great people and not-so-great people as members. Both are doing well for membership because they both care about taking care of "their people", meaning people of a certain type and people with a certain set of interests.

I'd suggest that it's all about finding a group of people you like, if they are at your marina then that's great. But don't write off all yacht clubs as there is a tremendous variety and you could miss out on some really wonderful people. Get to know them, some are a real pain, others are terrific.

The Sailing association has no club house and no assets, it's just a bunch of sailors who get together to race in a certain way. Thankfully, the local yacht clubs let us use their docks and frequently start our races for us. We get along well with them, even though only a few of us are members of those clubs.

Variety is a great thing, different strokes for different folks, and for all the reasons that not all of us drive Buicks or VWs or Fords, not all of us belong in each club or association.

BV

#110 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 07:20 AM

Mr. Vrolyk.
With all respect, you may call me Forrest Gump. Or you man call me Chancy Gardener. Or you may call me Mickey Mouse.
You may call me Delta Blues or you man call me DoRag.
But the quality of my words and thoughts, in the end, is what you shall deal with.


Jocal,

I don't think I called you by any of these names, and I am happy to deal with the quality of anyone's words. However, when someone says stupid, unsubstantiated and insulting things simply to make themselves feel more important or superior it pisses me off. It ought to piss you off too.

When people want to argue a position with reason and facts, I and many others are interested and engaged. When, however, the augment is a series of personal attacks, insults and unsubstantiated claims - it's drivel.

I think you and I agree on: "But the quality of my words and thoughts, in the end, is what you shall deal with." It is precisely a LACK of such quality that I object to most often around here and I call people on it - they don't like it. I don't insult their background, their choice of club, their job, their hair color or which country they happen to live in - none of that is relevant to the "quality" of the words and ideas. To do so is a tremendous demonstration of intellectual weakness. I call them out on their lack of ability to respond to the points others make, their dependence upon personal insults when their logic fails them, and I definitely call them on their lack of courage to stand behind what they say.

A well reasoned argument can stand alone and be discussed as simply and unattributed words.

Personal insults, innuendo and slime - someone has to stand up and make that insult in person otherwise it's just the gas from an old windbag farting in the breeze.

BV

#111 jocal505

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 07:47 AM

Beau, that is well said, and kindly said. And it is apropopriate to DoRag and his standard baiting gags--he only has four. Sure, if you are 5'6" or 6'6", whether you won all the races or not, the discussion ought to come down to the content of both of your words.

What I was getting at is that Delta Blues and DoRag, albeit under screen names, have made some good points here in certain posts, and I hear crickets from two intelligent NoCal guys due to use of aliases. As you say, good ideas stand on their own. I'd like to see their points addressed, and they were not.

Thank you for the tone of your reply. By the way, I have made a career in construction, and many days have seen daily problems understood and solved by laborers and truck drivers, when those in charge were oblivious, lost in their own authority and politics. They were in charge and part of the problem.

#112 Albatros

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 07:59 AM

not that long ago a wise man -at least in his own mind- made this acute observation :

The feeling of self-importance of those who blather on here is really impressive, silly but still impressive.

guess the thread has been proving that point alright, if the shoe fits ...wear it with pride :D

#113 DoRag

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:53 PM




...snip...

Well said.

I would add that SAers were very impressive with their support of MSG as she goes through her trials. That support, financial and otherwise, from a bunch of "annonymous trolls" (as Faux Bro Beau continually rants), speaks very well for the sailing community and the comraderie of racers.

Hard to see that coming from the blue blazers at USSA.......


Rag,

Do you personally or professionally have any factual information about personal donations or support to charity coming from the senior folks at US Sailing or are you just blowing gas out your ass to make yourself feel better and make a point? If so, post it or STFU.

Of course, you can "investigate" the senior people at US Sailing and elsewhere because you know their names. You, however, can't be investigated, because you are hiding.

The efforts to help MSG are terrific and have nothing whatsoever to do with the point of this thread, but that sort of non-sequitor is ignored frequently by you when you're in the "blowing gas" mode. MSG is a terrific person and a lot of us have attempted to help her with support of all sorts. So exactly what has that to do with Gary, other than as a feeble attempt by you to insult these folks without a single fact to support your claim.

Get out from behind your shield of anonymity when you insult the generosity of others. If you don't, the term "coward" will continue to apply quite well, despite your frequent unverifyable posts implying personal valor on the field of battle and your own generocity.

BV


Ah yes, more of the pretentious, condesending drivel from the big mouth of a small person without the chops.

This is a racing site. And if you take the time to read the posting guidelines you would find that your pathetic, consistent mid fleet finishes in an amateur fleet do not qualify you to rant on anything.

You also violate the height restrictions as the SA Rules clearly state you need to be at least 5' 6" in order to post here. The ED in intited that qualification so as to avoid the rants of little people who have issues with their stature and tend to be overly aggresive and obnoxious. Like you.

As to academic qualifications, well, you know that attending a Cal State simply doesn't quite cut it. Nor does not engaging in an athletic endeavor in college - and no, fencing and sailing don't cut it, much like the bowling and knitting teams don't cut it. Perhaps this is why you fail to see the connection between my response to Clean's post and how MSG benefitted from the sailing community. Try harder, I know it's not easy for you.

And your comments regarding my military service mirror the NorCal attitude about serving one's country, as much as they underscore your total lack of understanding of what it means to actually serve in the front. And, no, I never implied valor - I simply say I served. At the front. Which I did. Valor is for those that didn't make it back - something you do not understand.

And last, when are you going to understand that perhaps 98% of SA posters chose to assume a name? Just like virtually all sites of this nature. The fact that you don't like that is irrelevent. Just as you life appears to have been. And if you don't like it, why don't you go someplace else?


Rag,

You pitiful blowhard. You didn't answer the one question which required you to state a fact. I'll repeat it, as you clearly want to duck it. Do you have any knowlege of the donations made by the "blue blazers" (to use your phrase) at US Sailing. Or, are you just blowing gas out like normal? All that bull shit that you just spewed in a lame attempt to insult me and change the topic has no effect. It should be obvious to you that I don't care what you say.

Answer the question. Or, you could admit you're wrong and just blowing gas like you usually do.

You accused the folks at US Sailing of not making charitable donations, you accused the leadership personally. Document it.

Given your response, I'm betting there is not one shred of fact behind what you've said, otherwise why the long bloated rant about me personally, is that weak response as good as it gets? Sad, really sad. I get an absolute KICK out of triggering this sort of childish rant from you, it's frigging hysterical!! Rant on, Rag.

As to your other comment about me wanting to run for some job at US Sailing, again you've no frigging idea how wrong you are, but that hasn't slowed you down in the past - no reason it should now. Are you always this wrong about people? It must be a challenge to be wrong this often.

BV


OK, clown. Let's get my comment accurate. My reference was to Clean's post regarding the role of SA. I pointed out that SA, the institution, pick up the torch relative to an individual who needed some help. USSA, the institution (the blue blazers), did not. Simple? There was no reference to individuals, who happen to belong to USSA, helping out. That was my point and you shouldn't try to reframe it to your own benefit.

How, what else did you deem to be inaccurate?

Your lack of any credentials in racing?
Your relative lack of a meaningful education?
The fact that you are very short and have a complex about it?
The fact that your posts are usually arrogant and condesending?
The fact that you have no achievment in athletic endeavors?
The fact that you still believe that Newport Beach was a "fishing and boating" village 20 years ago?
The fact that you proclaim yourself to be "the Godfather of Startups?
The fact that you like you call folks "cowards", but never served in your country's military?

Your turn ( and I know you love to use the word Ad Hominen so have at it).......

#114 us7070

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:04 PM

OK, clown. Let's get my comment accurate. My reference was to Clean's post regarding the role of SA. I pointed out that SA, the institution, pick up the torch relative to an individual who needed some help. USSA, the institution (the blue blazers), did not. Simple? That was my point and you shouldn't try to reframe it to your own benefit.


as commendable as the SA fund raising was, i don't think it is the type of thing that U.S. sailing should be doing - it's a private act of charity. even here at SA we don't do it for everyone who's sick.

the blue blazers on LIS just raised $125,000 for the olympic and para-olympic teams at a dinner a few weeks ago.

#115 DoRag

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:09 PM


Mr. Vrolyk.
With all respect, you may call me Forrest Gump. Or you man call me Chancy Gardener. Or you may call me Mickey Mouse.
You may call me Delta Blues or you man call me DoRag.
But the quality of my words and thoughts, in the end, is what you shall deal with.


Jocal,

I don't think I called you by any of these names, and I am happy to deal with the quality of anyone's words. However, when someone says stupid, unsubstantiated and insulting things simply to make themselves feel more important or superior it pisses me off. It ought to piss you off too.

When people want to argue a position with reason and facts, I and many others are interested and engaged. When, however, the augment is a series of personal attacks, insults and unsubstantiated claims - it's drivel.

I think you and I agree on: "But the quality of my words and thoughts, in the end, is what you shall deal with." It is precisely a LACK of such quality that I object to most often around here and I call people on it - they don't like it. I don't insult their background, their choice of club, their job, their hair color or which country they happen to live in - none of that is relevant to the "quality" of the words and ideas. To do so is a tremendous demonstration of intellectual weakness. I call them out on their lack of ability to respond to the points others make, their dependence upon personal insults when their logic fails them, and I definitely call them on their lack of courage to stand behind what they say.

A well reasoned argument can stand alone and be discussed as simply and unattributed words.

Personal insults, innuendo and slime - someone has to stand up and make that insult in person otherwise it's just the gas from an old windbag farting in the breeze.

BV


Are you having gastro issues today?

If you want a well reasoned position on this topic, there are many here - the thread isn't all about your inadequacies and "shortcomings." Those things are only important when you present your arrogant, superior attitude - which has no foundation in fact.

For example, why don't you refer to the post by a wise and somewhat accomplished racer who went into some detail comparing the stated achievements of USSA for 2011 (as presented on their web site) with the stated objectives of USSA (as stated in the USSA Bylaws). I know you don't have an MBA, however, in the real world, business organizations typically state their objectives in the form of business plans and strategic plans, and then measure "success" by comparing quarterly and annual results with the stated goals. This is the way things are done. Anything else is hot air or "gas" as you seem recently fixated upon.

Fairly simple approach. You might need to try harder in order to understand that.

#116 DoRag

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:49 PM

OK, clown. Let's get my comment accurate. My reference was to Clean's post regarding the role of SA. I pointed out that SA, the institution, pick up the torch relative to an individual who needed some help. USSA, the institution (the blue blazers), did not. Simple? That was my point and you shouldn't try to reframe it to your own benefit.


as commendable as the SA fund raising was, i don't think it is the type of thing that U.S. sailing should be doing - it's a private act of charity. even here at SA we don't do it for everyone who's sick.

the blue blazers on LIS just raised $125,000 for the olympic and para-olympic teams at a dinner a few weeks ago.


Your point is understood and well taken. My point is not what should be a goal for SA or USSA, rather, it was addressing the relative needs of the sailing community and the differeing roles played by USSA and SA, and perhaps the need for USSA to effectively utilize SA in some capacity (heaven help me for that one).

In the recent case, there was a focused attempt by SAers to help someone - initiated by friends utilizing the SA structure. That opportunity is available for anyone who opted to use SA for that or a similar purpose.

Obviously USSA couldn't accomplish the same thing. And probably, as an institution, it shouldn't. However, what USSA might do is establish a fund to help folks injured or disabled whilst engaged in a sailing activity. Might be like the NFL fund or the fund for disabled seaman. Whatever.

My "blue blazer comment" referred to the USSA Board. The fact that an organization on LIS raised funds for disabled folks is a good thing. The fact that there is no effective effort by our national body to accomplish the same thing speaks volumes. I think that was supposed to be Dawg's point.

Supporting disabled sailing is an opportunity for expanding the sailing community and helping some folks out. There are many aspects and differing needs to support and programs have been around for a long time addressing the different aspects. I have personally been involved with programs teaching Vets, in the Wounded Warrier and Higher Ground programs, snowsports, fly fishing and certain water sports. The equipment for those programs was then utilized for disabled, or developmentally challenged kids, on up through folks preparing for the para Olympics. It was a logical and natural extension. I looked to expand those concepts into sailing, but Vets seemed largely uninterested in that activity and I couldn't get any consensus from local YCs, etc. So I bailed. I then sent USSA a letter (this was several years ago)saying this was a natural activity for them, with the lead activity the Vets, but also including kids and para Olympic folks.

There was no reply to that letter.

My hope would that the LIS folks look into adding a disabled Vet program. They will find it will provide access to significant additional funding (from a variety of sources including the VA)and engender a great deal of local community support.

#117 DoRag

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:36 PM

Beau, that is well said, and kindly said. And it is apropopriate to DoRag and his standard baiting gags--he only has four. Sure, if you are 5'6" or 6'6", whether you won all the races or not, the discussion ought to come down to the content of both of your words.

What I was getting at is that Delta Blues and DoRag, albeit under screen names, have made some good points here in certain posts, and I hear crickets from two intelligent NoCal guys due to use of aliases. As you say, good ideas stand on their own. I'd like to see their points addressed, and they were not.

Thank you for the tone of your reply. By the way, I have made a career in construction, and many days have seen daily problems understood and solved by laborers and truck drivers, when those in charge were oblivious, lost in their own authority and politics. They were in charge and part of the problem.


It's OK to be a mediocre racer. But I think most people would believe that folks at the back end of the fleet should not be providing advice on rig set ups, go fasts or sailing strategy, etc. The credability might be a tad hidden under all the hypocrisy and arrogance. Or, like being lost in their own authority and politics.

#118 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 05:30 PM

Rag,

What an exhibition. Sadly, all those personal attacks don't cover the fact that you did indeed mean the leadership of US Sailing, when you said it the first time and also later on when you said specifically you were talking about them when comparing them to the efforts of the folks on LIS. I'm hardly the one reading your post out of context - I'm just the guy calling you on the fact that you had no data to support it. That, you admitted later to someone else, was true.

As Jocal said, ideas stand on their own merits. The readers judge them. I've no problem with that at all. I don't do a critique of a post that I don't have a major disagreement with, why should I? There are lots of great posts here that make a great deal of sense. Those, however, typically don't contain chicken shit commits like: "It's always nice to hear from the foreigners" or spelling corrections. Some of yours even fall into the meritorious category. Many of them don't. It just drives you nuts doesn't it to have someone that you'd love to look down on critique what you say - especially when they're right.

Gas bag, I and others will continue to call you on it when you insult folks without a shred of fact and then feel compelled by folks to explain what you really meant. The number of errors in your recent attempt to insult me are astounding, but then you've been told all that before so there's point repeating it. Despite what some political types have had success with, repeatedly stating something that is false doesn't make it true; for you or anyone else.

So you don't like the way I write - get over it gas bag - SA isn't called "Anarchy" for nothing. We'll all continue to write in our own ways and say whatever it is we wish to despite your moaning and corrections; in may cases precisely because of your moaning about it. Doesn't it suck to be part of a real broad based democratic forum where the only criteria is showing up? No requirements that let you exclude anyone for spelling errors, their school, their history, their nationality, or any other of the things you so like to reference.

Face it Rag, you're an elitist. You'd love to have a Vet-only, ivy league only, US only web site where everyone bowed to what you believe to be your superior intellect and history; and it makes you nuts to have folks around who don't let you be that elitist you believe you deserve to be. Too bad.

BV

#119 DoRag

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 05:43 PM

Rag,

What an exhibition. Sadly, all those personal attacks don't cover the fact that you did indeed mean the leadership of US Sailing, when you said it the first time and also later on when you said specifically you were talking about them when comparing them to the efforts of the folks on LIS. I'm hardly the one reading your post out of context - I'm just the guy calling you on the fact that you had no data to support it. That, you admitted later to someone else, was true.

As Jocal said, ideas stand on their own merits. The readers judge them. I've no problem with that at all. I don't do a critique of a post that I don't have a major disagreement with, why should I? There are lots of great posts here that make a great deal of sense. Those, however, typically don't contain chicken shit commits like: "It's always nice to hear from the foreigners" or spelling corrections. Some of yours even fall into the meritorious category. Many of them don't. It just drives you nuts doesn't it to have someone that you'd love to look down on critique what you say - especially when they're right.

Gas bag, I and others will continue to call you on it when you insult folks without a shred of fact and then feel compelled by folks to explain what you really meant. The number of errors in your recent attempt to insult me are astounding, but then you've been told all that before so there's point repeating it. Despite what some political types have had success with, repeatedly stating something that is false doesn't make it true; for you or anyone else.

So you don't like the way I write - get over it gas bag - SA isn't called "Anarchy" for nothing. We'll all continue to write in our own ways and say whatever it is we wish to despite your moaning and corrections; in may cases precisely because of your moaning about it. Doesn't it suck to be part of a real broad based democratic forum where the only criteria is showing up? No requirements that let you exclude anyone for spelling errors, their school, their history, their nationality, or any other of the things you so like to reference.

Face it Rag, you're an elitist. You'd love to have a Vet-only, ivy league only, US only web site where everyone bowed to what you believe to be your superior intellect and history; and it makes you nuts to have folks around who don't let you be that elitist you believe you deserve to be. Too bad.

BV


Why is it that short peole tend to have an inferiority complex?

Now, tell us once again about how Newport Beach was a sailing and boating village 20 years ago......

BTW "gas bag" isn't even in the class of "FauxBroBeau". You need tos trep up your game or continue to live in the back of the fleet.

#120 Mambo Kings

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 05:52 PM


I went to a marina and had hooked up with a couple of sailors who also had bad experiences. We set up our own informal PHRF . I am 27 i got involved with sailing and dragged a few friends with me. prior to that i dont know any one else that sailed nor do i know any one that i didn't meet through the Mariana and the people at it. Maybe Its just who i know but i don't see how a sport can survive with out brings a younger generation in. Yacht clubs should be the people doing this by providing lessons and affordable docking/mornings not about creating a high society social spot. I will continue to boycott yacht clubs and there events.


it's unfortunate that you couldn't find a club in which you felt comfortable.

but, i don't think every club necessarily needs to appeal to the greatest number of people.

after all, they are _private_ clubs, and it's ok that different clubs appeal to different types of people.

the great thing is that there are many many clubs, each with their own feel, and in general, there is enough variety out there that everyone can find a home.

i think it would actually be worse for sailing, if all the clubs were the same, and tried to appeal to the same demographic.

i belong to two clubs, one is quite simple, and extremely inexpensive.

the other is one that i'm sure you would hate - it's expensive, and, i'll admit, has a reputation for being snobby (although the reality is a bit different), there are extensive dining facilities, and members often wear blazers. we just had probably the best year for membership since i joined, about 10 years ago - and many of the new members are young. nearly all new members are active sailors. we have a a fair number of members who don't sail much - some are older, but sailed when they were young. now they play bridge, and dine (are we supposed to kick them out?). i think it's great that these members - many in their 80's, who were members since before i was born, still come to the club. some of the non-sailors are legacies, who probably transitioned in as jr members years ago. they help pay the bills.

anyway, there's nothing wrong with a little variety.

i can also assure you that if you ever decide to end your boycott, you would absolutely be welcome at our regattas.



+ 1, US 7070 a thoughtful and articulate post.



Clubs are not buildings, they are people who have gathered together to share something.

Whether he realizes it or not, Adam has formed a sailing club at his Marina . For his small group of friends it is as special as 7070's expensive club. What all these clubs share in common is a love of the sport of sailing.


A quick tale of two very different yacht clubs:

One is American Yacht Club on Milton Point in Rye. In many ways it is analgous to 7070's expensive club. There is probably a dress code for dinner on Saturday night. The facilities are stunning and there is surely a commensurate membership fee to pay for those facilities. There are "young at heart" members in their early 80s who dont get out on the water as much as they used to but still love to come and dine at the club.
If you get the chance, come to the the High Performance Dinghy Open and find any sailor standing in a well worn wetsuit next to an old VW jetta derigging their dinghy on the AYC lawns and ask them if they had a good time. AYC is a well heeled private club whose membership have chosen as one of their objectives to promote the sport of sailing,,,,,,and boy do they ever. They open their facilities to all comers for an entry fee that doesnt come close to covering the costs.
When that 80 year old member opens his check book and pulls out his pen, he isnt thinking that if he added up the numbers this is the most expensive dining room in the city, and why the hell is he subsidizing those unruly dinghy sailing hooligans. He remembers that he was 27 once and he and a group of his buddies got together at a local marina to race and....he writes the bloody check .

The other is Lake Naivasha Sailing club.
Lake Naivasha sailing club in the Rift Valley has some showers, a ramp, a dinghy storage area and a spot where you can camp for the weekend. The only real code is to avoid the hippos. Be especially careful if the wind dies because flapping sails can really annoy them. Dont worry about the Giraffe, they are harmless. They have about 190 members who sail Lasers, Optis and some homebuilt Fireballs. The annual membership fee is about $57.50 per year. The moral is that anywhere that there is water and sailors, they will get together and form a club to share the fun of sailing.

Both clubs, very different, have that in common.

How the heck did I ever hear of Lake Naivasha sailing club? I was at the last HPDO and heard about it at the bar from an AYC member with a grey beard and a blue blazer who was one of the early members at Lake Naivasha when he was about 27 years old.

I wish Adam good luck with their informal sailing club at the Marina. In his own way he is promoting the sport of sailing. Try visiting a few other clubs when you can . You meet some crazy and interesting people.

#121 us7070

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:02 PM

is a hippo an obstruction?

#122 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:07 PM

is a hippo an obstruction?


I sure hope he's not a competitor!

#123 DoRag

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:16 PM

Rag,

What an exhibition. Sadly, all those personal attacks don't cover the fact that you did indeed mean the leadership of US Sailing, when you said it the first time and also later on when you said specifically you were talking about them when comparing them to the efforts of the folks on LIS. I'm hardly the one reading your post out of context - I'm just the guy calling you on the fact that you had no data to support it. That, you admitted later to someone else, was true.

As Jocal said, ideas stand on their own merits. The readers judge them. I've no problem with that at all. I don't do a critique of a post that I don't have a major disagreement with, why should I? There are lots of great posts here that make a great deal of sense. Those, however, typically don't contain chicken shit commits like: "It's always nice to hear from the foreigners" or spelling corrections. Some of yours even fall into the meritorious category. Many of them don't. It just drives you nuts doesn't it to have someone that you'd love to look down on critique what you say - especially when they're right.

Gas bag, I and others will continue to call you on it when you insult folks without a shred of fact and then feel compelled by folks to explain what you really meant. The number of errors in your recent attempt to insult me are astounding, but then you've been told all that before so there's point repeating it. Despite what some political types have had success with, repeatedly stating something that is false doesn't make it true; for you or anyone else.

So you don't like the way I write - get over it gas bag - SA isn't called "Anarchy" for nothing. We'll all continue to write in our own ways and say whatever it is we wish to despite your moaning and corrections; in may cases precisely because of your moaning about it. Doesn't it suck to be part of a real broad based democratic forum where the only criteria is showing up? No requirements that let you exclude anyone for spelling errors, their school, their history, their nationality, or any other of the things you so like to reference.

Face it Rag, you're an elitist. You'd love to have a Vet-only, ivy league only, US only web site where everyone bowed to what you believe to be your superior intellect and history; and it makes you nuts to have folks around who don't let you be that elitist you believe you deserve to be. Too bad.

BV


BTW, I love the reference to myself as an "elitist." Between the two of us, only one is a member of St Francis YC. And, it ain't moi! Elitist, indeed.

#124 jeff carver

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:17 PM



how silly the 2 points in the second sentence sound


Dispute them with some evidence or STFU.

Whether US Sailing officials post here or make some effort to get some front page space makes not one iota of difference to us. But it would to their membership numbers!

ok Al, i will, just give me a moment to catch up on this thread

#125 jeff carver

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:40 PM



What is bizarre is the fact that USS/Jobson hasn't engaged this site more directly even with invitations to do so. Given the incontrovertible fact that there are more US racers here than anywhere else on the planet, what a waste of a free opportunity to directly engage more prospective members than any other avenue.


i don't think its bizarre at all
not when you consider how silly the 2 points in the second sentence sound


ok, hi again Al
all caught up and here are my facts, second sentence right?
1) i know alot of US racers, probably close to 200 or so. Me and about 2 others frequent this place. Where are the other 198?
2) engage, it doesn't happen here, interesting verb....do you mean piss, moan and make shit up, or have a discussion?

and i'm going to throw one more out there, and this i know to be fact
President of USS or not, Gary has done more for sailing than 99% of the "US racers here(ie SA)"... than anyone else on the planet