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New British Americas Cup Team???


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#301 Clapham

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:55 PM

Jimmy's good but he isn't in BA's league!

#302 WetHog

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:59 PM

Interesting little video about BARF. The relationship appears more on the up and up than what I first thought. BARF is a satelite of OR, and has no intentions beyond the ACWS for this cycle. Makes sense. BARF gets to take baby steps in the ACWS and move on to the big boys for the next cycle. A much better scenario to build a proper UK AC team than what Dame Mills attempted.

One question I have is how does the creation of BARF affect OR Coutts? Or will OR ultimately have OR Spithill, OR Coutts, and BARF under its umbrella. Does that mean OR will have 3 teams worth of sailors to select from when it comes time to select the prime crew for their AC 72. Either way, thats one hell of a defense organization. It will be interesting to see how ETNZ and ETNZ LR respond, if they can.

WetHog :ph34r:

#303 Estar

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:02 PM

Jimmy's good but he isn't in BA's league!



'captain' at OR is more than just being a good helm on a single handed boat. Its about leadership. See the Chris Dickerson experience to see how it can go wrong with a good helm but bad leader. I don't think we yet know how good a team leader BA is. JS may not be quite as good a helm but he has run a very smooth ship. It will be interesting to watch.

#304 KingMonkey

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:07 PM


Glad to see so many here see BA as the second comming of christ.
Has he even set foot on a catamaran yet?


No ... and, by the time the Olympics are over, the AC45s will be getting ready for storage.


You have a short memory. There was a lot of debate about the meaning of his being given charge of Oman Sail for 3 events in the Xtreme Sailing Series last Autumn (he's actually sailed an X40 a few times before but not in the series).

He came in at short-noticed and took them on the podium for 2 out of 3 events from their previous efforts around 8th or 9th position.

#305 maxmini

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:25 PM

Jimmy's good but he isn't in BA's league!


My thought is that with the program oracle is bringing to the event they will not need to absolutely best helmsman to win.

#306 Mariner

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:25 PM

Haven't seen anyone ask what this does to Bundock as the most recent OR 2 Helmsman?

#307 K38BOB

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:43 PM

Jimmy's good but he isn't in BA's league!


I know this blasphemous...but....no mention that Bundy beat JS in the a-class oz nationals and was the closest to ashby in one race?

link


#308 ~HHN92~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:26 AM


Jimmy's good but he isn't in BA's league!



'captain' at OR is more than just being a good helm on a single handed boat. Its about leadership. See the Chris Dickerson experience to see how it can go wrong with a good helm but bad leader. I don't think we yet know how good a team leader BA is. JS may not be quite as good a helm but he has run a very smooth ship. It will be interesting to watch.


How was Team Origin when competing in the LVC series and the TP52's?

Oh, I know, it was the boat's fault.

BA has not impressed me with his skills on a crewed boat, other than some good results in a Star with Ian Percy. They won a couple with the 52 but then had some dfl's too, but I don't think they ever reached the podium (maybe once if IIRC). All the talk was about the boat being a dog and going to the shed for mods from Juan K.

Anything else that he has done on crewed boats other than being on the B-boat?

#309 KiwiJoker

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:31 AM

Here is Stuart Alexander's take on the announcement in The Independent:

"Britain's triple Olympic gold medallist Ben Ainslie will be helping the Americans to defend the America's Cup next year in a strange hybrid deal announced today at London's Festival Hall.

"In a move which seems to have him riding two horses at once, he will be contesting the America's Cup World Series representing the Royal Cornwall Yacht Club but is being welcomed into the San Francisco-based Oracle defence team and saying he hopes Oracle will win the cup."

#310 chocoa

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:41 AM

i feel you guys are getting carried away with Ben-

The kiwis with Luna Rossi's help will build the better 2nd generation AC 72 than OR-------- the other one or two teams who have the dough to build one will build theirs.
Oracle are back footed and desperate to counter TNZ/LR visionary move.
What do Oracle do? Buy another helmsman/keep him off market.

I believe in the end there will be a faster boat in this next AC.
TNZ

ps

LARRY CAN i BORROW 35,000$ to buy a foreclosed house?

#311 eric e

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:45 AM

By the time BARF is racing 45's after the Olympics, OR will have AC72 boat #1 in the water and focusing on that, they will be pretty much done with 45 2-boating. So it's probably a good use for at least one of those boats - they will of course have to be put back into ac45 class trim if they have been modified.


probably easier to just round up the poodles and change the protocol again...




#312 eric e

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:57 AM

The potential exists for BAR to be a spoiler in the seeding process. Room here for more Protocol amendments. Or at least some fancy math that takes BAR out of the scoring when it comes to seeding.


maybe he'll get a tether

to stop him swimming over and belting draper or something

with him as oracle's, at arms length, "enforcer"

sailing could become like ice hokey




#313 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:13 AM


The potential exists for BAR to be a spoiler in the seeding process. Room here for more Protocol amendments. Or at least some fancy math that takes BAR out of the scoring when it comes to seeding.


maybe he'll get a tether

to stop him swimming over and belting draper or something

with him as oracle's, at arms length, "enforcer"

sailing could become like ice hokey

Funny

KJ, if they do elect to go that route for seeding the CSS then it's not only BAR whose score might need to be discarded for not having an AC72 entry to the CSS; OR would then also need to be discarded, and any other team on the sheet not taking that step to the CSS. Fancy math indeed, maybe ACRM will have to leave the decision to a Challengers-only vote?

#314 Kiwi Spy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:45 AM

So Sir Russ gets his first draft choice and BA is granted the luxury of his own AC45 campaign!

Some here still harbour the notion that BA might do the impossible and come up with an AC72 for this time around. Not so. This is all about Oracle signing up available top talent for 2013 while granting Britain's top sailor a 45-foot platform to launch his own run at the Cup in AC35.

Forget all the hand-wringing/mud-slinging that BA has no crew, or sponsors, or that he needs to concentrate on events in Portland later this year. He's got the best in the world in Grant Simmer to put together a dream team. This is not a new relationship. They were blooded, literally, in the abortive TO campaign. That they are together again with something to prove should give pause to any group with America's Cup aspirations.

As others have noted we don't know if BAR will be loaned one of the OR 45's or acquire its own. Will BAR train with the OR 45's? Presumably. I'm looking forward to seeing how closely BAR is "embedded" with OR.

The Protocol offers up one little wrinkle:

22.7. The Regatta Director may at his discretion use the results of the 2013 AC World Series
regattas held prior to the Regatta to seed the ACCS and ACDS.

22.8. GGYC may, at its discretion, permit additional competitors that are not entered Competitors
under the terms of this Protocol to compete in any AC World Series regatta on such terms
as it may determine. Refer amendment 8

The potential exists for BAR to be a spoiler in the seeding process. Room here for more Protocol amendments. Or at least some fancy math that takes BAR out of the scoring when it comes to seeding.


I you are going to play those two cards then you also need to look at 3(a)(ii) especially in regard to 22.8

RG

#315 aus2479

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:55 AM

Not sure how relevant those results are although ashby was spruiking the benefits of a class sailing for preparation in one interview. The results suggest spithill never looked like beating bundy, also a mono sailor outteridge beat them both for something to add to cv come august.



Jimmy's good but he isn't in BA's league!


I know this blasphemous...but....no mention that Bundy beat JS in the a-class oz nationals and was the closest to ashby in one race?

link



#316 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:16 AM

I you are going to play those two cards then you also need to look at 3(a)(ii) especially in regard to 22.8

RG

can someone post that, what's the relevance?

#317 K38BOB

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:04 AM

Not sure how relevant those results are although ashby was spruiking the benefits of a class sailing for preparation in one interview. The results suggest spithill never looked like beating bundy, also a mono sailor outteridge beat them both for something to add to cv come august.




Jimmy's good but he isn't in BA's league!


I know this blasphemous...but....no mention that Bundy beat JS in the a-class oz nationals and was the closest to ashby in one race?

link


This is a trimaran Posted Image


Posted Image

#318 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:48 AM


So the same skipper is going to switch teams during the SAME AC, well, what is left of the spirit of the AC ?


Been done before, numerous times, just not from a 'challenger' boat to a 'defender' boat. If you consider BAR as a 'challenger' team.


Agree, a switching skipper bugs me, but there is not much to say.

A YC accepting a defender team "patronizing" a challenger and openly proposing him to be a defender,............. while still denying a US team to compete for the DSS seems is a bit too much, and in breach of the Deed "Friendly competition between countries".

#319 fubaru

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:09 AM

A YC accepting a defender team "patronizing" a challenger and openly proposing him to be a defender,............. while still denying a US team to compete for the DSS seems is a bit too much, and in breach of the Deed "Friendly competition between countries".

That's why I'm rooting for Energy Team, so you Frenchies can show us the right way to defend the Cup...B)

#320 K38BOB

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:19 AM



So the same skipper is going to switch teams during the SAME AC, well, what is left of the spirit of the AC ?


Been done before, numerous times, just not from a 'challenger' boat to a 'defender' boat. If you consider BAR as a 'challenger' team.


Agree, a switching skipper bugs me, but there is not much to say.

A YC accepting a defender team "patronizing" a challenger and openly proposing him to be a defender,............. while still denying a US team to compete for the DSS seems is a bit too much, and in breach of the Deed "Friendly competition between countries".


No denial. No takers

#321 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:28 AM

Glad to see so many here see BA as the second comming of christ.
Has he even set foot on a catamaran yet?


Yeah. He finished ahead of ETNZ in his first ESS regatta at Nice.

#322 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:38 AM

Here is Stuart Alexander's take on the announcement in The Independent:


He tangentially raises the question which exercises me. The collaboration questions which OR raised (JN024) are not related to the BAR deal as announced. Enquiring minds wonder, were they:

1. A shot across ETNZ/LR's bow (as I'd previously tended to believe)?
2. Evidence that a deal involving BAR moving into AC72s was under discussion but ultimately rejected? And if so, why?
3. Related to discussions with another team or potential team.

#323 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:44 AM

I don't think we yet know how good a team leader BA is.


It's a valid question. You could also however ask how much of a team leader he is going to have to be with Simmer in a management role.

#324 SimonN

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:47 AM

For those who doubt Ben's ability in crewed boats, you seem to have forgotten that he won the world match race tour despite doing less events than everybody else. You cannot win on that tour without working as a first class team. The very idea that Ben isn't good at the whole team thing is rediculous.

These sorts of comments so remind me of when Ben moved from the Laser to the Finn. All the doubters were saying that he would struggle because the Finn was so technical and Ben was only good in strict one designs. How wrong they were.

#325 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:48 AM

They were blooded, literally, in the abortive TO campaign.


Literally. Gosh. A whole bucket load or just a little dab?

Posted Image

#326 Oneyoti

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:52 AM

If it is "Ben Ainslie" racing it is the WRONG way to go.

The AC is a friendly contest between the yacht clubs of diifferent nations.

As far as I know, Ainslie is not a yacht club or a nation.

Even the Big-Bad-One was smart enough to call himself "Stars and Stripes."


TK

Your apparent venom for all things English is of such passion that you are clearly prepared to sacrifice all credibility on the your beloved Altar of Anti-Englishness.

Your post above is quite pathetic, although I do concede you did correctly identify that BA is neither a yacht club nor a nation, well done!! It’s just a shame that your genius didn’t stretch to appreciating the difference between the name of a racing team and the burgee of the yacht club under which they race.

#327 eric e

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:56 AM


I don't think we yet know how good a team leader BA is.


It's a valid question. You could also however ask how much of a team leader he is going to have to be with Simmer in a management role.


we know T.hutch screams at his crew, but stays at the helm

we know Ben is willing to leave the helm, cross the water, climb on to others boats and scream at them from inches away if he feel he doesn't get the respect his 4 medals deserve

he's going to have to be careful

who he chooses as crew

mitch booth probably out ...

and as for grinders taking a few roids on the side

well

that could get very ugly

is it mutiny

if the winch handle

flies off

and hits a captain

who has abandoned the helm?

Attached Files



#328 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 07:02 AM

If this was China, BA would be told to concentrate on Finn racing.


And if he refused, a single bullet in the back of the head. Interesting choice of role model there.

#329 KiwiJoker

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 07:23 AM


I you are going to play those two cards then you also need to look at 3(a)(ii) especially in regard to 22.8

RG

can someone post that, what's the relevance?


Richard, bless 'im, was calling attention to the "Neutral Management" section. Food for thought, that's fer sure. Here's all of Clause 3

3. NEUTRAL MANAGEMENT

(a) GGYC (in its capacity as trustee), Challenger of Record (in its capacity as Challenger
of Record) the Event Authority, ACRM, the Regatta Director, and all Officials, while
complying with the rules referred to in Article 13, shall:

(i) act in the best interests of all Competitors collectively, consistent with Article 2,
in organizing and managing the Event, and in developing the rights referred to
in Article 4.1( c); and

(ii) not unreasonably favor the interests of any Competitor over another.

( b ) If a Competitor, the Event Authority, or the Regatta Director believes a decision
breaches the principles of Article 3(a) they may seek a review by the Jury. If the Jury
finds a breach of this Article has occurred, it may revise the decision as it considers
just and equitable for all Competitors and consistent with the objectives set out in
Article 2.

#330 eric e

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:00 AM

does 3ii mean

all energy, TK and GCR

need to do

is ask for the same deal as

benny?

#331 Albatros

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:56 AM

He tangentially raises the question which exercises me. The collaboration questions which OR raised (JN024) are not related to the BAR deal as announced. Enquiring minds wonder, were they:

1. A shot across ETNZ/LR's bow (as I'd previously tended to believe)?
2. Evidence that a deal involving BAR moving into AC72s was under discussion but ultimately rejected? And if so, why?
3. Related to discussions with another team or potential team.

yes
:)

Me thinks a lot is related to timing, the original target was to have umpteen teams, the economy (and an overload of hubris) decided otherwise, in order not to jeopardize the longer term F1-AC circus dream it is in their best interest to come up with one hell of a spectacle even if it is with less than umpteen teams, any team starting now is way too late to be really competitive (in AC72),sure you can come up with some sort of AC72 starting now but never really competitive against those who have been working on it now for a year or so. An uneven, unbalanced AC72 circus would not be in their best interest so all those starting now, and certainly without certainty about proper funding are best kept in the freezer, or let them play in the AC45 circus.
Seen from that angle the Ainslie deal is brilliant, it could lead to a very viable UK challenge for next AC.

#332 GDEvans

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:02 AM

1326264972[/url]' post='3541687']

1326264250[/url]' post='3541680']

1326236530[/url]' post='3541205']
I don't think we yet know how good a team leader BA is.


It's a valid question. You could also however ask how much of a team leader he is going to have to be with Simmer in a management role.


we know T.hutch screams at his crew, but stays at the helm

we know Ben is willing to leave the helm, cross the water, climb on to others boats and scream at them from inches away if he feel he doesn't get the respect his 4 medals deserve

he's going to have to be careful

who he chooses as crew

mitch booth probably out ...

and as for grinders taking a few roids on the side

well

that could get very ugly

is it mutiny

if the winch handle

flies off

and hits a captain

who has abandoned the helm?


Hey there was almost a full sentence there. Next week's lesson is punctuation...

#333 GDEvans

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:20 AM

1326233366[/url]' post='3541143']
They were blooded, literally, in the abortive TO campaign.


People do seem to have short memories. And should also check their facts.
It was such a terrible abortive campaign in 2010 that they only achieved 4th place out of 11 teams. I apologise on behalf of Team Origin that they were unable to provide the Kiwis with the standard of racing that they expected.

#334 tomtom

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:35 AM

does 3ii mean

all energy, TK and GCR

need to do

is ask for the same deal as

benny?


V Funny, and correct!

I can't believe that everyone is focusing on whether BA is better than JS etc etc when we have an Americas Cup where a Defender bankrolls a challenger!!! I know it is "only" the ACWS, but RC et al have seriously ripped the carpet from underneath their own feet by doing this. The ACWS is now just, only, and always only was, a media circus and playground. No value to the AC. This is just plainly ridiculous and they should now drop all pretense of being the AC with the best bla bla bla bla barf!

Split it up, make the AC the AC and the WS the WS circus, focus on the big cats but please stop all this philandering and whoring around of the auld mug.

#335 eric e

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:02 AM

Hey there was almost a full sentence there. Next week's lesson is punctuation...


missed a comma there, fixed it for you below


Hey, there was almost a full sentence there. Next week's lesson is punctuation...




#336 eric e

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:07 AM


does 3ii mean

all energy, TK and GCR

need to do

is ask for the same deal as

benny?


V Funny, and correct!

I can't believe that everyone is focusing on whether BA is better than JS etc etc when we have an Americas Cup where a Defender bankrolls a challenger!!!


as cc cruiser would no doubt say..

"(ii) not unreasonably favor the interests of any Competitor over another. "

is not the same as

"(ii) not favor the interests of any Competitor over another. "

the difference being the word "unreasonably"

if they have a reason to favor one competitor over another

it's ok

he's our poodle, bought and paid for, of course we favor him

should be enough

and i'm sure the jury he paid last month will agree

#337 seis

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:16 AM

Resume of posts in voting threat about BAR,sharing, and agreements against 33.4
(Posts merged)

Quuestions about BAR racing only the 2012 ACWS, not a 34thAC Challenger.


1. BAR sailing an AC45 in ACWS 2012-2013 can be useful for AC72 development? - I think NO. Then, not under 33.4.

2. Oracle paying now Ainslie to sailing in SF 2013, and Ainslie starting BAR now to sailing ACWS 2012 is an agreement against 33.4? I think NO. Not giving information for developement.

3. Problems about sharing crew? ACWS are not the Regatta. Crew can switch.

4. BAR can be considered only as a path to circumvent the 2 AC45 number in ACWS? I think NO. Crew can switch. Plus: it have little sense: Oracle have 4 now testing and racing.

5. A sponsor funding 2 different teams is against the Protocol? I think NO. That implies an agreement between Teams? Under rules I think NO. But the actual situation is strange.

well, the jury will have to define what makes a team a 'sham' vs 'legitimate'. I would suggest just for a start: funding (some significant % at least) independent from the other teams, an intent to keep the team running (and not be already planing to jump ship to the funding team), and that the other team CEO's sees the team as competitors rather than part of their team. BARF is simply the classic case of a sham paper shell team, and OR went to no effort at all to hide that fact. So, they must figure they have the jury sorted out. But if BARF is judged legitimate that means the jury has approved all such paper shell teams for the future. . . . LE could even select BARF as his COR next time around, fund it and supply it with OR team members and with an OR design.

I don't know what or how the jury would make that determination and would not guess at the outcome, but I do believe that AR as COR has an obligation to challenge something that stretches at least two protocol points this far this blatantly. Their role is to keep the defender honest. And they jumped right in on TNZ/LR, and BARF is at least as blatant, so why would they not react here also?

OR is putting several m$ into BARF, and they are taking on the distraction of helping managing another team, so you have to presume they are getting some sort of advantage out of setting it up as a separate shell team rather than just bringing it inside OR, and that extra advantage is exactly what the two protocol clauses are trying to limit. Perhaps they have found a (pretty blatant) way around the wording, but it should be tested and by the COR.


quote name='~Stingray~' timestamp='1326228196' post='3541028'
The way I see it is BA sold his services to OR for the Cup defense, starting in 2013. He used some of it to start his own team now, for the stated goals he lays out.

The 2012/2013 ACWS season's competition will be stronger as a result. Some teams will surely get beaten by BAR and may have a beef with that aspect of it; but there's also nothing they can do about that, unless you can find 'sham' language in the Protocol to support your own words to that effect.

But agreed, we may not see the ET or Alephs or whoever else all welcome it, guess time will tell. Some may be thinking "where's my handout?" to which RC might respond "what have you got to offer OR that we want that badly?" Lol
/quote

[ name='Estar' ]
Ok, that's a decent defense of BARF - I don't buy it, but it's reasonable (assuming he can show that BARF's funding is all really 'pay to BA' - and he has paid taxes on it all! and none controlled by OR to BARF corporate shell - I wonder given the quoted price tage is $3m - BA is paying Grant and the rest of the team out of his OR pay?). But if the jury buys it, then, they have also bought that LE could fund BARF into the CSS with his boat #1 design, and next time around could still fund them and pick them as his COR, and all other teams could fund such sham teams to get around the sailing days restriction.

The protocol does not say 'everything not specifically prohibited is allowed', so there does not have to be specific language disallowing shells/shams for them to be found in fact to be illegal if the jury sees them as just mechanisms to get around the specifically stated prohibitions. There is no definition of 'team' in the protocol, so that's left to the jury to decide. This is a good test case, because if BARF is not found a sham then the jury will be saying that there is not such a thing as a sham and teams can set up shell/sham teams to their heart's content in order to circumvent various restrictions. . . . .

But if you are looking for language to show intent to prohibit this sort of shell - 33.4 was obviously written exactly to prevent this sort of shell set-up (it's a bit out-of-date because when it was written they thought AC72's would be used in the ACWS, but the intent is obvious). And 22.6 is pretty clear on point when you realize that BA is a contracted OR team member now/already.

The odd part is that OR's 8 questions to the jury did not contain this particular scenario. OR's scenarios focused on AC72's and did not bring up the 'shared funding source' and 'later OR team commitment' at all.

name='seis'
Perhaps the reason for this figure, BAR presents a challenge not complete, it is precisely to "read hard" Jury responses.

Perhaps he had also considered the other option, a full Challenge. Or maybe Ainslie's participation in other possible Defender candidate . But a "hard read" the responses have led to dismiss these alternatives.


How is it that "if the jury buys it, then, they have also bought..." all that other stuff? They are completely different scenarios. On "to get around the sailing days restriction" this BAR team has nothing to do with AC72's; and if you are referring to AC45's well LR just picked up Draper who - guess what - has a lot of AC45 experience; it also seems likely we'll see other sailors - with more AC45 experience than BA - switch to different CSS teams.

"in order to circumvent various restrictions" an ETNZ could sail another AC45 in the series, or buy one to sail as much as they like outside the series, or whatever they want to do with them. There are very few AC45 restrictions, except for perhaps in the supply line or in ACRM's logistical capacity. IM said some time ago he'd struggle to run races with 12 boats, well we have that big a fleet coming already by Naples. Should or could ETNZ fund an AUS wannabe team, with Ashby at the helm? Why not, if it's his demand for being on their AC72?

quote
The odd part is that OR's 8 questions to the jury did not contain this particular scenario. OR's scenarios focused on AC72's and did not bring up the 'shared funding source' and 'later OR team commitment' at all.
/quote

Maybe because 'shared funding source' is not illegal, anywhere. The closest clause I can think of is in the 'independent builder.' But I agree that back when OR asked the questions they may well have already figured BAR would not be an AC/AC72 entry and that there's a chance that another team will make an OR arrangement as asked about. Otoh it's possible the BAR decision to not go forward as an AC entry had to do with those answers, and so potential funding sources were still a moot point anyway.

I agree it would be bad to see a CoR funded by a defender and have said many times it is good that LE didn't step in to cover VO's shortfall. Having TT as effectively the CoR is in many ways a better situation if, as many people originally had thought in the ML case, there were money influences going on. Didn't happen with ML, and it's almost inconceivable with a TT.





~Stingray~
Maybe because 'shared funding source' is not illegal, anywhere.

[='Estar' ]
Sting, you really really need to read 33.4 more closely before we continue this - because you are just plain wrong on that. It makes 'any agreement . . . ' illegal, not just shared funding, but any agreement . . . that leads to a second party getting any boat and then helping out the first party in essentially any way at all ("in the program of design, development or challenge"). That clause was written exactly to prevent sham teams. It was poorly written but that's its clear intent. Please read it closely and come back to the thread and then Seis can help you understand the further implications :)
['~Stingray~]
But it's all about AC72s, right??

33. DESIGN
33.1. From 1 January 2013 each Competitor shall engage separate and independent Designers
who, from that date forward shall have no design involvement with any other Competitor's
program for this Event in developing an AC72 Yacht Hull, deck, cockpit, Wing Mast (Mast
sections and flap elements), geometry of the standing rigging, appendages or sails
excluding battens and sail hardware, or those same components of any other yacht
capable of being measured as an AC72 Yacht without significant modification, except that a
Designer whose contract is terminated by a Competitor prior to the Regatta may work for
another Competitor, but not where the Designer terminates or intentionally initiates
termination of their contract. Refer amendments 3.12 and 8
33.2. From 1 January 2013 Competitors, including through the assistance of third parties, shall
not share or exchange any further AC72 Class design or performance information or
equipment. This restriction shall not apply to: Refer amendments 3.13 and 8
(a) the receipt or use of equipment designed prior to 1 January 2013, or the receipt or
use at anytime of design information created prior to such date; Refer amendments 4.04, 3.14
and 8
(b ) hardware available for purchase by all Competitors on similar terms (not being AC72
Yacht
Hull, deck, cockpit, Wing Mast, Mast sections, geometry of the standing rigging,
appendages or sails excluding battens and sail hardware);
(c )design and performance information which may be gleaned without assistance when
competing against or training with another Competitor;
(d) design and performance information from the media or scuttlebutt; and
(e) A supplier to two or more Competitors disclosing improved construction methods or
technology developed solely by the supplier, provided the designs, methods or
technology developed by the Competitors are not disclosed or exchanged.
33.3. Model testing of a Hull, Mast, geometry of the standing rigging, or appendages of an AC72
Yacht
shall not be done at greater than one-third scale.
33.4. Any agreement, arrangement or other understanding, whether legally enforceable or not, by
one person or entity (in this paragraph "the first person"), whether then a Competitor or not,
with any other person or entity (in this paragraph "the second person") that the second
person will directly or indirectly build, acquire or otherwise obtain one or more yachts of
whatever type (in this paragraph "other yachts") so that the first person can directly or
indirectly obtain, in any manner whatever, design or performance information regarding the
other yacht or yachts for use in the program of design, development or challenge of the first
person, is prohibited.


^ And I fail to see how, or if it were illegal then why, OR would try to use BAR's AC45 for AC72 design ideas. Christ, they have four of their own already!

BA has said, basically, "BAR is completely independent and has nothing whatsoever to do with OR." That is almost a direct quote. He ALSO told us that he is not even joining Oracle until after the ACWS conclusion. If he can't sign to an OR, then what allows other sailors to sign with teams (so long as it is prior to the CSS if it's a switch?) This is no different, he is not working for two teams at the same time, did you not hear it?

quote
I will say again, I don't know how the jury would rule on these two points, but they are very clearly borderline with reasonable arguments they prohibit BARF, and so they should be challenged by the COR in order to keep the defender honest.
/quote
I don't know either how they would 'rule these two points' and also can't think who might try make issue out of it. The possibly ETNZ-sourced comment in (was it?) The Guardian yesterday was all about if they were a 'fully fledged' AC34 entry, and so therefore with possible AC72 implications.

I really don't think that anyone will gives a rat's ass about the above; the greater import of it all is much more in the fact BA will be signing with Oracle at all for AC34 proper, instead of with any of them. LR likely is disappointed, it sounds like that was another possibility he had, but would they try prove a 'sham' argument that seems unsupportable by any protocol language? 33.4 above certainly isn't it, and yes I have read it.

The closest I can think of it being an advantage to OR is in him being trained up in AC45's before joining OR. But again, it's hard to separate his given right to go that route from other sailors' rights to do the same - including some of whom already have more AC45 experience than he does. How do you make that case?

name='~Stingray~'
But it's all about AC72s, right??

No! Please read it a little more closely! 33.4 says explicitly "one or more yachts of whatever type". "Whatever type" would certainly include an ac45.

"Whatever type" is pretty clear and includes ac45s, but if you are trying to say because 33.1 refers to AC72s than 33.4 must also, please remember that the Jury just said that the points are to be read independently and there is no 'read-down'. Jury pp23 ends with "To read Article 33.4 as being 'subject to' other clauses is not provided for in either the Protocol or the clause itself."


BA has said, basically, "BAR is completely independent and has nothing whatsoever to do with OR."

That's exactly what a shell would say. But, if he is funded by OR, has a contract with OR, trying to win a major position on OR, probably being given one of OR's boats, . . . does the jury agree he is completely independent?

But again, it's hard to separate his ability to go that route from other sailors' rights to do the same - including some of whom already have more AC45 experience than he does. How do you make that case?

SEIS has explained that very well in the performance thread . . . the difference (re 33.4) is the advance agreement between teams . . . that results in the acquisition of any boat . . . and (re:22.6) the question of whether the team is an independent team, or as described elsewhere an OR subsidiary. If OR asked BA to help them tune up their rig - would he say no? That is a very different situation than a crew member leaving for a better offer with another team. If he was simply first helming for LR and then got a better offer from OR there would be no problem at all - but there would be a problem if there were an advance agreement that involved LR getting their boat (33.4) and/or if OR was basically in control of LR (22.6).



#338 Indio

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:38 AM


does 3ii mean

all energy, TK and GCR

need to do

is ask for the same deal as

benny?


V Funny, and correct!

I can't believe that everyone is focusing on whether BA is better than JS etc etc when we have an Americas Cup where a Defender bankrolls a challenger!!! I know it is "only" the ACWS, but RC et al have seriously ripped the carpet from underneath their own feet by doing this. The ACWS is now just, only, and always only was, a media circus and playground. No value to the AC. This is just plainly ridiculous and they should now drop all pretense of being the AC with the best bla bla bla bla barf!

Split it up, make the AC the AC and the WS the WS circus, focus on the big cats but please stop all this philandering and whoring around of the auld mug.


The ACWSL45 is, has always been, the Coutts-Cayard WSL circus which was virtually sinking into oblivion before OR's success in the AC33 legal slugfest gave them a lifeline. The ACWSL45 is the faustian deal Uncle Larry made with Coutts to wrest the auld mug from Ernie. And now, the mephistophelean payback continues.

We only need to worry about the real AC from late 2012 onwards.

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:45 AM

By which point the AC may well have become the Pro Bowl to the ACWS Regular Season, rather than the Super Bowl.

#340 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:24 AM

^

I'm afraid I haven't a clue what that means.

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:50 AM

It's a comparison to American Football. There are direct parallels between the regular and post season in the NFL and what is happening with the ACWS and AC.

There is a regular season in which all teams compete. Following the regular season, or league, there is a knock out stage leading to a grand final, where the eventual winner is crowned ... the Super Bowl. While the teams do compete in 2 conferences, with 1 team from each conference represented in the final game, each team is a self contained entity with it's own players, management and ownership that competes with all the others.

There is also a Pro Bowl. In the Pro Bowl individual players from the 2 conferences (arbitrary division of teams into 2 groups) are picked to play each other in a one off game. Getting picked for the Pro Bowl is recognition of the individuals performance in the season gone and their overall standing in the game.

Lets be clear. The Super Bowl is the real deal finale to a winter long competition in which all teams compete for the ultimate honor of victory. The Pro Bowl is a side show to the main event.

There seem to be 2 conferences developing in the ACWS. The Defenders and The Challengers. The models for each are currently mixed.

The Challengers are self contained teams as describer above, some of whom also have the capability to run off in the AC proper (post season). They represent a model that makes the Americas Cup look like the Super Bowl.

The Defenders (of which BAR is now a part) are 'teams' from which it's being suggested that individual talent will be selected to form the defending crew for the Americas Cup. That represents a model that makes makes the Americas Cup look like the Pro Bowl.

If you stop taking the teams that don't have the resources to compete in the AC seriously and the team that does have a shot (ETNZ Luna) continues to move towards the same model as The Defenders are using then the AC will look more and more like the Pro Bowl and less and less like the Super Bowl.

It also stacks one of the areas that had, in the LVC era, previously been a challenge advantage .. the scope to include a wide range of talent and to identify the best amongst them through competition .. and turn it into a defender advantage (along with all the traditional advantages they have retained).

#342 KingMonkey

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:53 AM

I'm afraid I haven't a clue what that means.


Think it's something to do with the 'bowl' of 'bowling' and the 'bowl' which they for some reason call the FA Cup Final. And then put 'super' in front to make it sound more exciting.

Americans, tsk, to whom we are divided by a common language.

#343 KingMonkey

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:15 PM

I will let the rule experts argue the various merits of the current arrangement. To me, it seems that the ACWS and AC are so separate that it really doesn't matter. Especially as Ainslie has been categorically clear regarding his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his £200,000.

What I look forward to is finding out more about the showdown between Jimmy Spithill - for some time considered the world's best young(ish) match racer, and Ben Ainslie - two years older - who is the best current Olympic sailor. I guess, unfortunately, we will only know the result of this showdown once we see who is helming OR during the AC.

Despite being two years younger, Spithill undoubtedly has the most AC experience, this being his 5th he will have helmed. Ainslie, despite this being the 4th "AC Campaign" that he has joined, has only really had significant amounts of experience as the B helm on the ETNZ boat in the lead up to 2007. He has only really got involved in the AC between Olympic campaigns, and is certainly the greener of the two in that regard.

It seems unthinkable that Ainslie will be able to make up for both this and the extra five years experience which Spithill will have this September in sailing big multihulls in the 9 months that he will have with OR up to AC34. Perhaps - anyway - it will be more exciting to see these two great sailors clash for different teams the next time around.

Rafael Nadal has long been the best player on clay. . . it took him a while to learn to play on the grass. I wonder if Ainslie will cope with the change.

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:15 PM


I'm afraid I haven't a clue what that means.


Think it's something to do with the 'bowl' of 'bowling' and the 'bowl' which they for some reason call the FA Cup Final. And then put 'super' in front to make it sound more exciting.

Americans, tsk, to whom we are divided by a common language.

I'm an Englishman who lives in Ireland.

The structure of the NFL is one that may sports have copied in some part or in whole, including most of the leagues of various sports in Australia and the UK ... including Association Football, where the national domestic regular seasons feed into the following years 'post season' (i.e. 'Champions' League).

There's no room for anyone to feel smug.

#345 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:42 PM

It's a comparison to American Football.


I don't think the analogy holds up that well because performance in the ACWS has nothing to do with entry into the LVC/AC. At most it will determine LVC seedings and even that is at IM's discretion.

#346 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:46 PM

Despite being two years younger, Spithill undoubtedly has the most AC experience, this being his 5th he will have helmed. Ainslie, despite this being the 4th "AC Campaign" that he has joined, has only really had significant amounts of experience as the B helm on the ETNZ boat in the lead up to 2007. He has only really got involved in the AC between Olympic campaigns, and is certainly the greener of the two in that regard.


BA won most races against JS in the IACC match racing event at Cowes a couple of years ago. I realise it wasn't the real thing but even so, perhaps an indication.

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:48 PM


It's a comparison to American Football.


I don't think the analogy holds up that well because performance in the ACWS has nothing to do with entry into the LVC/AC. At most it will determine LVC seedings and even that is at IM's discretion.

Comparison to the Super Bowl doesn't hold up well for that reason. The comparison to the Pro Bowl is less effected. Wasn't the ACWS originally supposed to be an AC72 event withthe AC45 left to the kids?

#348 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:54 PM

Wasn't the ACWS originally supposed to be an AC72 event with the AC45 left to the kids?


It was supposed to start in AC45 and morph later to AC72 but the latter was canned. The youth involvement in AC45 was something else.

#349 KingMonkey

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:57 PM

BA won most races against JS in the IACC match racing event at Cowes a couple of years ago. I realise it wasn't the real thing but even so, perhaps an indication.


Yes, but I would say that was 'advantage' to TO in terms of boat - they'd been taking the ACWS seriously (indeed, Spithill wasn't even driving the Oracle boat by that point) and running a monohull all year in the TP52s.

But I agree, I think it would be great to see these two up against each other in an equal match.

#350 dogwatch

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:14 PM

Yes, but I would say that was 'advantage' to TO in terms of boat - they'd been taking the ACWS seriously (indeed, Spithill wasn't even driving the Oracle boat by that point)


I can't find any links to prove it but I remember JS was helming.

#351 KingMonkey

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:19 PM

Apologies - Spithill was helming in Cowes in the challenge they had between the two teams, he had given up the helm of the IACC that was still racing in the ACWS by then - I think to Gavin Brady - so while he was helming, he'd only been driving a 'Zilla for most of the year. Ainslie had been driving the TO TP52 and the TO entry in ACWS.

I meant to imply Spithill was probably out of monohull practice, while Ainslie was in better shape.

#352 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:38 PM

A piece by BA
--

Ben Ainslie: I have unfinished business in the America's Cup

I am back with a new team in what should be an exciting New Year after the disappointments of 2011.
After the way 2011 ended, with my disqualification from the world championships in Perth, it is fantastic to be able to start the New Year with a positive and, for me personally, hugely exciting announcement.

My two great goals in sailing have always been the Olympics and the America’s Cup.

So I guess my return for what I hope will eventually be a proper crack at the oldest trophy in international sport was inevitable.

There was unfinished business there.

The way Team Origin disbanded at the end of 2010 was a sad moment for everyone involved but I am delighted to be back with a new team: Ben Ainslie Racing. And under the banner of my home sailing club, the Royal Cornwall Yacht Club, as well.


contd

#353 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:42 PM

At TDS
--

Ben Ainslie on his America's Cup future
As soon as the Olympics conclude this year, Ben Ainslie is to campaign an AC45 with backing from Oracle Racing, while outside of the America’s Cup World Series he will be part of Larry Ellison’s defending team for the 34th America’s Cup, it was announced yesterday at a grand gathering at London’s Royal Festival Hall. It should be remembered that Ainslie will be a key feature of the 2012 Olympic Games, not just in sailing or in the UK, but internationally and across the whole Olympiad. For with three Olympic golds and one silver already and the strong prospect of collecting his fourth gold in Weymouth in August, he is lining up to be one of the greatest Olympians of all time. To put this into perspective: over the course of six Olympic Games Sir Steve Redgrave won five gold medals (plus a bronze in Seoul), one of only four people to achieve this feat in the history of the modern Olympiad. At present Ainslie’s three golds and one silver equals what two other of the greatest ever Olympic sailors, Jochen Schuemann and Valentyn Mankin, achieved in their careers, but it is one gold short of Paul Elvstrom’s four gold tally and one medal short of Torben Grael’s impressive two golds, two bronzes and a silver. So if the British Olympic living legend can transfer this profile on to the America’s Cup then it will be to everyone’s benefit – Ainslie, Oracle, sailing, sailing in the UK, a future British America’s Cup challenge...etc According to Ainslie, discussions began with Oracle Racing CEO Russell Coutts last summer. “I got in touch with Russell because I was interested in starting my own team for the 45s and trying to build that up to something. And then Russell said ‘funny you should say that, because I have been ..

contd (subscription)

#354 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:59 PM

at OR's ac.com page
--


Ben Ainslie to join ORACLE Racing for America’s Cup defense
Posted on 10 January 2012

Ben Ainslie, Britain’s most successful Olympic sailor of all time, is set to become a full-time member of ORACLE Racing’s sailing squad for the 34th America’s Cup defense on Francisco Bay in 2013. Before then, Ainslie will compete with his new team, Ben Ainslie Racing, on the America’s Cup World Series circuit.

Ainslie, 34, has won three gold medals and one silver at four Olympic Games. In August he’ll represent England in the Finn class at the London 2012 Olympics where he’ll be aiming for a fourth consecutive gold medal before switching his attention to the America’s Cup.

“For me, as a British sailor, London 2012 is an incredible opportunity to race on home waters in the Olympics,” said Ainslie, a 10-time world champion. “My focus is 100 percent on that.”

At the conclusion of the World Series regattas in 2013, Ainslie will switch to ORACLE Racing full time as an afterguard member, alongside the likes of four-time Cup winner and team CEO Russell Coutts, skipper Jimmy Spithill, tactician John Kostecki, two-time Olympic silver medalist Darren Bundock and four-time Laser world champion Tom Slingsby.

contd

#355 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:37 PM



There was no mention of where the AC45 is coming from, do we presume it's one of Oracles?


Highly doubt it. Oracle needs two boats for the ACWS, and two for 2-boat testing.



By the time BARF is racing 45's after the Olympics, OR will have AC72 boat #1 in the water and focusing on that, they will be pretty much done with 45 2-boating. So it's probably a good use for at least one of those boats - they will of course have to be put back into ac45 class trim if they have been modified.


Oracle is hardly in the position to need the money from selling an AC45. They have plenty of money and man-power for all the AC45s they have, for as long as they want. I imagine they have no intention of reducing their AC45 fleet.

#356 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:41 PM

My guess is that BA demanded and got a brand new boat, and it will be either AC45 #15 or #16.

#357 maxmini

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:42 PM

My guess is that BA demanded and got a brand new boat, and it will be either AC45 #15 or #16.


Big Larry will then be the proud owner of 1 / 3 of the entire AC 45 fleet :) Sonds good to me !

#358 seis

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:43 PM

Via mail Youtube updates, noticed a new video about BAR, but it's "private"

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-eXRGanEWpU

#359 KiwiJoker

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:19 PM

I will let the rule experts argue the various merits of the current arrangement. To me, it seems that the ACWS and AC are so separate that it really doesn't matter. Especially as Ainslie has been categorically clear regarding his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his £200,000.

What I look forward to is finding out more about the showdown between Jimmy Spithill - for some time considered the world's best young(ish) match racer, and Ben Ainslie - two years older - who is the best current Olympic sailor. I guess, unfortunately, we will only know the result of this showdown once we see who is helming OR during the AC.

Despite being two years younger, Spithill undoubtedly has the most AC experience, this being his 5th he will have helmed. Ainslie, despite this being the 4th "AC Campaign" that he has joined, has only really had significant amounts of experience as the B helm on the ETNZ boat in the lead up to 2007. He has only really got involved in the AC between Olympic campaigns, and is certainly the greener of the two in that regard.

It seems unthinkable that Ainslie will be able to make up for both this and the extra five years experience which Spithill will have this September in sailing big multihulls in the 9 months that he will have with OR up to AC34. Perhaps - anyway - it will be more exciting to see these two great sailors clash for different teams the next time around.

Rafael Nadal has long been the best player on clay. . . it took him a while to learn to play on the grass. I wonder if Ainslie will cope with the change.


Yes it will be interesting to see how it plays out. One question. Where was BA quoted as "categorically clear about his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his $200,000"? I thought he only announced intention of entering ACWS with its little boats and an eye to a future Cup bid next time around.

#360 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:03 PM


I will let the rule experts argue the various merits of the current arrangement. To me, it seems that the ACWS and AC are so separate that it really doesn't matter. Especially as Ainslie has been categorically clear regarding his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his £200,000.

What I look forward to is finding out more about the showdown between Jimmy Spithill - for some time considered the world's best young(ish) match racer, and Ben Ainslie - two years older - who is the best current Olympic sailor. I guess, unfortunately, we will only know the result of this showdown once we see who is helming OR during the AC.

Despite being two years younger, Spithill undoubtedly has the most AC experience, this being his 5th he will have helmed. Ainslie, despite this being the 4th "AC Campaign" that he has joined, has only really had significant amounts of experience as the B helm on the ETNZ boat in the lead up to 2007. He has only really got involved in the AC between Olympic campaigns, and is certainly the greener of the two in that regard.

It seems unthinkable that Ainslie will be able to make up for both this and the extra five years experience which Spithill will have this September in sailing big multihulls in the 9 months that he will have with OR up to AC34. Perhaps - anyway - it will be more exciting to see these two great sailors clash for different teams the next time around.

Rafael Nadal has long been the best player on clay. . . it took him a while to learn to play on the grass. I wonder if Ainslie will cope with the change.


Yes it will be interesting to see how it plays out. One question. Where was BA quoted as "categorically clear about his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his $200,000"? I thought he only announced intention of entering ACWS with its little boats and an eye to a future Cup bid next time around.

I took KM as meaning the same, no BA intention for AC34 and so no vote either.

Agreed that JS will be damn hard to topple.

#361 seis

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:09 PM

Ben Ainslie, today:

"The plan at the moment is merely to enter the America’s Cup World Series for 2012-13, which uses AC45s, rather than the 72ft wingsail catamarans which will be used in the 34th America’s Cup in San Francisco in 2013.
...
The plan is to bring in commercial partners and give them a taste of what the new-style America’s Cup World Series is all about.

And if all goes well, the hope is to challenge for the 35th America’s Cup, whenever and wherever that may be.

In the meantime I am fortunate enough to have been offered a place on the ORACLE Racing team for the defence of their title.


http://www.telegraph...ericas-Cup.html

#362 KiwiJoker

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:11 PM



I will let the rule experts argue the various merits of the current arrangement. To me, it seems that the ACWS and AC are so separate that it really doesn't matter. Especially as Ainslie has been categorically clear regarding his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his £200,000.

What I look forward to is finding out more about the showdown between Jimmy Spithill - for some time considered the world's best young(ish) match racer, and Ben Ainslie - two years older - who is the best current Olympic sailor. I guess, unfortunately, we will only know the result of this showdown once we see who is helming OR during the AC.

Despite being two years younger, Spithill undoubtedly has the most AC experience, this being his 5th he will have helmed. Ainslie, despite this being the 4th "AC Campaign" that he has joined, has only really had significant amounts of experience as the B helm on the ETNZ boat in the lead up to 2007. He has only really got involved in the AC between Olympic campaigns, and is certainly the greener of the two in that regard.

It seems unthinkable that Ainslie will be able to make up for both this and the extra five years experience which Spithill will have this September in sailing big multihulls in the 9 months that he will have with OR up to AC34. Perhaps - anyway - it will be more exciting to see these two great sailors clash for different teams the next time around.

Rafael Nadal has long been the best player on clay. . . it took him a while to learn to play on the grass. I wonder if Ainslie will cope with the change.


Yes it will be interesting to see how it plays out. One question. Where was BA quoted as "categorically clear about his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his $200,000"? I thought he only announced intention of entering ACWS with its little boats and an eye to a future Cup bid next time around.

I took KM as meaning the same, no BA intention for AC34 and so no vote either.

Agreed that JS will be damn hard to topple.


Read and replied in haste. In other words, "categorically clear about his intentions to not enter the AC and thus get a vote for his $200,000"

You referred earlier to the TDS account of how it went down. I liked this bit: According to Ainslie, discussions began with Oracle Racing CEO Russell Coutts last summer. “I got in touch with Russell because I was interested in starting my own team for the 45s and trying to build that up to something. And then Russell said ‘funny you should say that, because I have been trying to get in touch with you as we want you to come and sail with us’. So I said ‘well, that’s not really why I called...’ So we discussed different options and this was the perfect fit.”

#363 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:16 PM

Yep, the (subtlely implied) 'not' would best have been included instead.

Thanks for that full TDS quote! Was curious about it.

#364 GDEvans

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:23 PM

1326284129[/url]' post='3541818']
Rafael Nadal has long been the best player on clay. . . it took him a while to learn to play on the grass. I wonder if Ainslie will cope with the change.


Now I'm really confused. So the next round of the AC/ACWS is taking place in a stadium alongside the Super Bowl with Nadal trimming for Big Ben?

#365 seis

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:28 PM

Exactly! You have a rare ability to understand the hidden mysteries of AC world! :)

#366 bye bye

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:52 PM

it's all about the franchise baby!

#367 GDEvans

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:37 PM

If Ben really wants a couple of powerful grinders he should sign up the Williams sisters...

#368 Te Kooti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:38 AM

TK

Your apparent venom for all things English is of such passion that you are clearly prepared to sacrifice all credibility on the your beloved Altar of Anti-Englishness.



While you have been away on your sabbatical there have been some changes at Sailing Anarchy.

Some of the idiots have been expelled and, as a result, simple-mindedness and gratuitious insults are less prevalent than before.

Even the biggest malcontents (e.g. Ro) have learned how to make contributions verging on helpful.

So, having you return with all guns firing and your brain in neutral is a bit old fashioned.

Before you go further, how about you read some threads and ask if the tone is different (and maybe better) than what prevailed in an earlier era?

#369 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:54 AM


A YC accepting a defender team "patronizing" a challenger and openly proposing him to be a defender,............. while still denying a US team to compete for the DSS seems is a bit too much, and in breach of the Deed "Friendly competition between countries".

That's why I'm rooting for Energy Team, so you Frenchies can show us the right way to defend the Cup...B)


You know, while I would like to see them racing, and I think they more than deserve it, would they have to defend the Cup one day, that I don't know if they would do it better than the other ones.

I strongly believe that when a man has a parcel of power he is going to use it as much as he can, the only limit being the counter power. And we are all individually part of these counterpower,.....in order to grab power.

#370 fubaru

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:27 AM


That's why I'm rooting for Energy Team, so you Frenchies can show us the right way to defend the Cup...B)

You know, while I would like to see them racing, and I think they more than deserve it, would they have to defend the Cup one day, that I don't know if they would do it better than the other ones.

I strongly believe that when a man has a parcel of power he is going to use it as much as he can, the only limit being the counter power. And we are all individually part of these counterpower,.....in order to grab power.

I do believe you are starting to get it!

It's not about conspiracies, just human nature at work here...B)

#371 ro!

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:46 AM


TK

Your apparent venom for all things English is of such passion that you are clearly prepared to sacrifice all credibility on the your beloved Altar of Anti-Englishness.



While you have been away on your sabbatical there have been some changes at Sailing Anarchy.

Some of the idiots have been expelled and, as a result, simple-mindedness and gratuitious insults are less prevalent than before.

Even the biggest malcontents (e.g. Ro) have learned how to make contributions verging on helpful.

So, having you return with all guns firing and your brain in neutral is a bit old fashioned.

Before you go further, how about you read some threads and ask if the tone is different (and maybe better) than what prevailed in an earlier era?



Fuck off hastings..and take your Blackheart racist bullshit with you...

#372 atefooterz

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 02:30 AM


TK

Your apparent venom for all things English is of such passion that you are clearly prepared to sacrifice all credibility on the your beloved Altar of Anti-Englishness.



While you have been away on your sabbatical there have been some changes at Sailing Anarchy.

Some of the idiots have been expelled and, as a result, simple-mindedness and gratuitious insults are less prevalent than before.

Even the biggest malcontents (e.g. Ro) have learned how to make contributions verging on helpful.

So, having you return with all guns firing and your brain in neutral is a bit old fashioned.

Before you go further, how about you read some threads and ask if the tone is different (and maybe better) than what prevailed in an earlier era?



#373 Te Kooti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:01 AM

Fuck off hastings..and take your Blackheart racist bullshit with you...


C-

Has potential but could do better.

#374 SW Sailor

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:17 AM


Fuck off hastings..and take your Blackheart racist bullshit with you...


C-

Has potential but could do better.


B+

Considering the source I'd grade on a curve.

#375 Te Kooti

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:49 AM

B+

Considering the source I'd grade on a curve.


Yea ... ok!

With 21st grade inflation, B+ is tantamount to a "fail."

#376 GDEvans

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:57 AM

1326328710[/url]' post='3542710']

1326264752[/url]' post='3541685']
TK

Your apparent venom for all things English is of such passion that you are clearly prepared to sacrifice all credibility on the your beloved Altar of Anti-Englishness.



While you have been away on your sabbatical there have been some changes at Sailing Anarchy.

Some of the idiots have been expelled and, as a result, simple-mindedness and gratuitious insults are less prevalent than before.

Even the biggest malcontents (e.g. Ro) have learned how to make contributions verging on helpful.

So, having you return with all guns firing and your brain in neutral is a bit old fashioned.

Before you go further, how about you read some threads and ask if the tone is different (and maybe better) than what prevailed in an earlier era?


It all seems just as bad as it ever was here... No change at all.

#377 umpire

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:48 AM



TK

Your apparent venom for all things English is of such passion that you are clearly prepared to sacrifice all credibility on the your beloved Altar of Anti-Englishness.



While you have been away on your sabbatical there have been some changes at Sailing Anarchy.

Some of the idiots have been expelled and, as a result, simple-mindedness and gratuitious insults are less prevalent than before.

Even the biggest malcontents (e.g. Ro) have learned how to make contributions verging on helpful.

So, having you return with all guns firing and your brain in neutral is a bit old fashioned.

Before you go further, how about you read some threads and ask if the tone is different (and maybe better) than what prevailed in an earlier era?


It all seems just as bad as it ever was here... No change at all.



Yup, another thread trashed by stupid infighting.!

#378 KingMonkey

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:05 PM

Yes it will be interesting to see how it plays out. One question. Where was BA quoted as "categorically clear about his intentions to enter the AC and thus get a vote for his $200,000"? I thought he only announced intention of entering ACWS with its little boats and an eye to a future Cup bid next time around.



Yes - he's been clear that he has no intention at all of entering. Apologies if I wasn't categorically clear myself!

#379 KingMonkey

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:11 PM

. . . and will all the trolls fuck off - there was a semi-interesting debate going on in this thread about various aspects of this challenge.

[sighs, and vows to go away and come back to see what Sailing Anarchy is like in another 2 months time with low expectations]

#380 KingMonkey

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:22 PM

Oh my shitting Christ how sad. . . Mind you, at least in the UK, Henri Lloyd clothing is EXTREMELY - how shall I put this - worn by people who start fights every Friday night outside cheap pubs in towns with a traffic system which is heavily reliant on the roundabout. Presumably who this "range" is aimed at.

http://www.henrilloy...br-3-collection

#381 bye bye

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:34 PM

Hadn't thought of that. You're right. A bit of bovver with a few stewards isn't going to do any brand damage there. Nice bit of Burbury lining and some flight goggles built into the hood on the jackets and they be kosha.

#382 mad

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:43 PM

Oh my shitting Christ how sad. . . Mind you, at least in the UK, Henri Lloyd clothing is EXTREMELY - how shall I put this - worn by people who start fights every Friday night outside cheap pubs in towns with a traffic system which is heavily reliant on the roundabout. Presumably who this "range" is aimed at.

http://www.henrilloyd.com/about-us/news/global-news/henri-lloyd-launch-the-ainslie-gbr-3-collection

Who the hell told him that was a good idea??

#383 KingMonkey

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:48 PM

Who the hell told him that was a good idea??


Well, his sponsors Henri Lloyd presumably told him they wanted to do it. . . suspect having your own 'range' is probably not top of BA's priority list - especially as I really doubt there is much money in sailor-endorsed products. It's not like he's Beyonce!

#384 mad

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:50 PM


Who the hell told him that was a good idea??


Well, his sponsors Henri Lloyd presumably told him they wanted to do it. . . suspect having your own 'range' is probably not top of BA's priority list - especially as I really doubt there is much money in sailor-endorsed products. It's not like he's Beyonce!

Nothing like have some idiot throwing up/fighting etc on a Friday night whilst wearing clothing with your name on it??

Posted Image

#385 dogwatch

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:51 PM

http://www.henrilloy...br-3-collection


Good grief. Mind you, someone was on SAAC complaining, apparently in all seriousness, that he couldn't find merchandise to buy at an ACWS event. Takes all sorts. Preferably however they will stay somewhere I am not.

#386 pjfranks

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:55 PM

Oh my shitting Christ how sad. . . Mind you, at least in the UK, Henri Lloyd clothing is EXTREMELY - how shall I put this - worn by people who start fights every Friday night outside cheap pubs in towns with a traffic system which is heavily reliant on the roundabout. Presumably who this "range" is aimed at.

http://www.henrilloy...br-3-collection

Maybe the fog starts to clear on the press boat altercation?
Is a new edgy image emerging for BA?
Is this how Larry plans to get in touch with the "in your face" generation?
Or is this a career move?
BA aka Gangsta Sayla?




#387 gybe-ho!

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:12 PM


Who the hell told him that was a good idea??


Well, his sponsors Henri Lloyd presumably told him they wanted to do it. . . suspect having your own 'range' is probably not top of BA's priority list - especially as I really doubt there is much money in sailor-endorsed products. It's not like he's Beyonce!


Interesting that Ben was wearing a BAR branded Puma jacket for the press conference, when he is sponsored by Henri Lloyd. Another indication of the close ties to Oracle, as Oracle are supplied by Puma, or am I reading too far onto this conspiracy?

Oracle/Puma

Maybe I should go dig out my tin foil hat!

#388 bye bye

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:21 PM

Do. HL seems to have already given it their blessing.

#389 Tony-F18

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:21 PM

Since he wont be sailing till after the games, does that mean someone else will be skippering the boat till that time?
It would seem like the smart thing to do, just so to get his crew up to speed.

#390 gybe-ho!

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:31 PM

Do. HL seems to have already given it their blessing.


What's with the 3 in the Ainslie branded HL gear...3rd Oracle boat?

#391 obelix

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:45 PM

Acording to Wiki:


Although the United Kingdom, as a sovereign state, is a country, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are also referred to as countries, whether or not they are sovereign states or have devolved or other self-government.[29][30] The British Prime Minister's website has used the phrase "countries within a country" to describe the United Kingdom.[11] With regard to Northern Ireland, the descriptive name used "can be controversial, with the choice often revealing one's political preferences."[31] Other terms used for Northern Ireland include "region" and "province".[32][33]

The United Kingdom is often referred to as Britain. British government sources frequently use the term as a short form for the United Kingdom, whilst media style guides generally allow its use but point out that the longer term Great Britain refers only to England, Scotland and Wales.[34][35][36] However, some foreign usage, particularly in the United States, uses Great Britain as a loose synonym for the United Kingdom.[37][38] Also, the United Kingdom's Olympic team competes under the name "Great Britain" or "Team GB".[39][40] GB and GBR are the standard country codes for the United Kingdom (see ISO 3166-2 and ISO 3166-1 alpha-3) and are consequently commonly used by international organisations to refer to the United Kingdom.


Which means that

France is to UK as Cuba is to USA




#392 The Main Man

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 02:26 PM

Oh my shitting Christ how sad. . . Mind you, at least in the UK, Henri Lloyd clothing is EXTREMELY - how shall I put this - worn by people who start fights every Friday night outside cheap pubs in towns with a traffic system which is heavily reliant on the roundabout. Presumably who this "range" is aimed at.

http://www.henrilloyd.com/about-us/news/global-news/henri-lloyd-launch-the-ainslie-gbr-3-collection


What was he thinking?!

#393 bye bye

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 02:52 PM


Do. HL seems to have already given it their blessing.


What's with the 3 in the Ainslie branded HL gear...3rd Oracle boat?

3 gold medals I would say. Note the stitching in the Union Flag element is gold rather than white.

#394 gybe-ho!

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:04 PM



Do. HL seems to have already given it their blessing.


What's with the 3 in the Ainslie branded HL gear...3rd Oracle boat?

3 gold medals I would say. Note the stitching in the Union Flag element is gold rather than white.


It was kind of a rhetorical question, apparently from the HL press release, it's taken from his Finn sail number, GBR 3.

Edit: Although the 3 Golds point holds up well too.

#395 bye bye

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 04:53 PM

France is to UK as Cuba is to USA

The UK = America
England = the USA
Yorkshire = Texas
Manchester = Chicago
Scotland = Canada
Wales = California
...
France = Mexico

#396 Mariner

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 04:55 PM


Oh my shitting Christ how sad. . . Mind you, at least in the UK, Henri Lloyd clothing is EXTREMELY - how shall I put this - worn by people who start fights every Friday night outside cheap pubs in towns with a traffic system which is heavily reliant on the roundabout. Presumably who this "range" is aimed at.

http://www.henrilloy...br-3-collection


What was he thinking?!



Good looking AND Talented... I'd say he's doing what just about every athlete on earth is doing, taking advantage of opportunities while he has them.

#397 dogwatch

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:02 PM

France is to UK as Cuba is to USA


However I don't think MI6 has ever tried sending exploding cigars to a French president.

#398 K38BOB

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:03 PM


France is to UK as Cuba is to USA

The UK = America
England = the USA
Yorkshire = Texas
Manchester = Chicago
Scotland = Canada
Wales = California
...
France = Mexico


That reminds me of when I was talking to a US peer about Germany and Bavaria- we had a common customer in Munich- He said just think of Bavaria as the Texas of Germany. I explained that to my customers on next visit and with a laugh they said- Bavaria is older. Texas is the Bavaria of the US! lol

#399 pjfranks

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:20 PM


France is to UK as Cuba is to USA


However I don't think MI6 has ever tried sending exploding cigars to a French president.

Maybe MI6 send letters in French...

...and get French letters in reply?



#400 KingMonkey

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:25 PM



Do. HL seems to have already given it their blessing.


What's with the 3 in the Ainslie branded HL gear...3rd Oracle boat?

3 gold medals I would say. Note the stitching in the Union Flag element is gold rather than white.


Tis his sail number. Classy.




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