Jump to content


Making a spinnaker pole


  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#1 wristwister

wristwister

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts

Posted 02 January 2012 - 04:39 PM

So I picked up a couple Selden ends cheap at the used gear store, and picked up 10.5' of aluminum pole at the local metals joint. Also got a bunch of vinyl coated cable and crimp ends to make the end to end lines

I've seen several diffferent ways that topping lift and downhaul attachments are rigged on spinny poles.

1. Simply attached to the middle (rivet or clamp on a loop)
2. Attached to one end
3. loops in the middle of cables that go end to end, attached to the aluminum tube with rivets or screws
4. Same as 3., but attached to the clasp ends themselves

I'm pretty sure I want to go with option 4. I understand how this is a stronger solution than Option 1, I understand that Option 2 doesn't allow for end-to-end pole swap during jibes, and the Seldon ends appear to have loops for those cables. But ... before I start cutting and crimping cables, I figure I'll run this by the gurus just to make absolutely sure I'm not missing something here.

Wadayasay gurus?

#2 amro

amro

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,568 posts
  • Location:vancouver bc

Posted 02 January 2012 - 04:55 PM

how is the pole you are replacing set up?

#3 Vela Sailing Supply

Vela Sailing Supply

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 595 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:40 PM

What type of boat is this for?

If you want center ring (aka Rodeo Rings or "D" Rings) needs to be on a tapered pole to prevent failure. On a constant diameter tube you want bridles with rings in the middles to make it easier for end to end jibing.

#4 Grind4Beer

Grind4Beer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 188 posts

Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:42 PM

A 10ft spar isn't too big for end-4-end handling, but it's enough that you should rig it with a bridle if you don't rig it for dip-pole. If the end fittings have loops to attach the cables, use those instead of attaching to the pole. The bridle rings should be at least 2ft away from the pole.

And what's the alloy and heat-treat on your "metals joint" tubing? Aluminum ain't generic.

#5 wristwister

wristwister

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts

Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:45 PM

Amro, There is no pole I'm replacing. As near as I can tell, this boat was never set up for a pole.

Vela, it's a Columbia 26 M2. Constant diameter tube.

Grind, it's 6061-T6. I had 3 choices: 6061, 6063 or 2024. 6061 seemed like a decent middle-grade that would do the trick. 2023 was rediculously expensive ($450 for a 10' chunk!)

#6 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:47 PM

Here's my advice.

First, screws, and don't forget the anti-sieze.

Second, take the vinyl-coated cable, carefully place it in a plastic bag, and then place that bag in a local garbage can. Or, if you are into recycling, you can throw it in the back of a passing scrap guys pickup truck or take it back to "the local metals joint". If you get $5 bucks back that might make it worth the gas money.

Third, take the crimp ends and crimp tool and your receipt and return to West Marine or wherever you got that stuff and demand your money back because they didn't know shit selling you that stuff in the first place.

Fourth, get two stainless rings, approx. 1-inch diameter and 3/16ths thickness and about 25' of 1/4" single-braid dyneema/spectra. It doesn't matter what kind, the gray stuff is fine. Cut it in half, cut the halves in half. Tie two of these pieces to each ring using a bowline. Making sure that the "inboard" and "outboard" ends are tied on the same (i.e. "top" and "bottom" of the pole), tie each dyneema ring assembly to the each end of the pole using bowlines. What you are looking for is approximately a 30-45degree from the center to each pole end. It's balance of reduce compression on the pole compared to dealing with the slack line. You are done.

Fifth, depending on what kind of trip the jaws use, you will need another piece of spectra for that line, although it will be much thinner. Get as thick as will fit through the trigger or pull. Bowlines work fine for this as well and you can cheaply fine tune using line to get the length of all these lines that you are comfortable with.

#7 wristwister

wristwister

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts

Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:56 PM

Heriberto, what is this "bowline" you speak of? I went to Home Depot to buy one and they didn't know what I was talking about!

JUST KIDDING! You're suggestion of using Spectra instead of cable sounds like a good one. The only reason I was starting down the cable path was because most spinny poles I've seen are rigged with cable, but I like the the sound of the Dyneema/Spectra path better. I'll look into it.

#8 Vela Sailing Supply

Vela Sailing Supply

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 595 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 January 2012 - 05:58 PM

Here's my advice.

First, screws, and don't forget the anti-sieze.

Second, take the vinyl-coated cable, carefully place it in a plastic bag, and then place that bag in a local garbage can. Or, if you are into recycling, you can throw it in the back of a passing scrap guys pickup truck or take it back to "the local metals joint". If you get $5 bucks back that might make it worth the gas money.

Third, take the crimp ends and crimp tool and your receipt and return to West Marine or wherever you got that stuff and demand your money back because they didn't know shit selling you that stuff in the first place.

Fourth, get two stainless rings, approx. 1-inch diameter and 3/16ths thickness and about 25' of 1/4" single-braid dyneema/spectra. It doesn't matter what kind, the gray stuff is fine. Cut it in half, cut the halves in half. Tie two of these pieces to each ring using a bowline. Making sure that the "inboard" and "outboard" ends are tied on the same (i.e. "top" and "bottom" of the pole), tie each dyneema ring assembly to the each end of the pole using bowlines. What you are looking for is approximately a 30-45degree from the center to each pole end. It's balance of reduce compression on the pole compared to dealing with the slack line. You are done.

Fifth, depending on what kind of trip the jaws use, you will need another piece of spectra for that line, although it will be much thinner. Get as thick as will fit through the trigger or pull. Bowlines work fine for this as well and you can cheaply fine tune using line to get the length of all these lines that you are comfortable with.



+1

Use Single braid Dyneema instead of cable. On a Columbia 26 M2 you can and want end to end jibing. Constant diameter tube requires bridles with angles on the range mentioned above. You are set now!

Good luck.

#9 Grind4Beer

Grind4Beer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 188 posts

Posted 02 January 2012 - 06:08 PM

6016-T6 should be quite good enough. For your Columbia 26, I'd say to rig for end-to-end.

#10 savoir

savoir

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,984 posts

Posted 03 January 2012 - 12:50 AM

I would use wire for the trip lines. Inside a pole is a high chafe place and dyneema doesn't like chafe. Wire will last much longer. You only need 3/32".

#11 UniGor

UniGor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 891 posts
  • Location:The Bar

Posted 03 January 2012 - 10:12 AM

If you want to get really clever with the spectra, run some bungy cord down the middle of it. This should keep the bridles snug against the pole when on deck. Each piece of the cord should be long enough to be pulled out to the full length of each of the bits of spectra without being close to its limits, but short enough to still be under some tension when "slack" against the pole.

Last boat I sailed on had this and it was fucking brilliant.

#12 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 03 January 2012 - 03:48 PM

If you want to get really clever with the spectra, run some bungy cord down the middle of it. This should keep the bridles snug against the pole when on deck. Each piece of the cord should be long enough to be pulled out to the full length of each of the bits of spectra without being close to its limits, but short enough to still be under some tension when "slack" against the pole.

Last boat I sailed on had this and it was fucking brilliant.


How did you fix the bungy in there on your boat? Siezing?

#13 Vagary

Vagary

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Location:Heaven

Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:58 PM

Here's my advice.

First, screws, and don't forget the anti-sieze.

Second, take the vinyl-coated cable, carefully place it in a plastic bag, and then place that bag in a local garbage can. Or, if you are into recycling, you can throw it in the back of a passing scrap guys pickup truck or take it back to "the local metals joint". If you get $5 bucks back that might make it worth the gas money.

Third, take the crimp ends and crimp tool and your receipt and return to West Marine or wherever you got that stuff and demand your money back because they didn't know shit selling you that stuff in the first place.

Fourth, get two stainless rings, approx. 1-inch diameter and 3/16ths thickness and about 25' of 1/4" single-braid dyneema/spectra. It doesn't matter what kind, the gray stuff is fine. Cut it in half, cut the halves in half. Tie two of these pieces to each ring using a bowline. Making sure that the "inboard" and "outboard" ends are tied on the same (i.e. "top" and "bottom" of the pole), tie each dyneema ring assembly to the each end of the pole using bowlines. What you are looking for is approximately a 30-45degree from the center to each pole end. It's balance of reduce compression on the pole compared to dealing with the slack line. You are done.

Fifth, depending on what kind of trip the jaws use, you will need another piece of spectra for that line, although it will be much thinner. Get as thick as will fit through the trigger or pull. Bowlines work fine for this as well and you can cheaply fine tune using line to get the length of all these lines that you are comfortable with.



Trash the the two stainless rings also! Just tie a simple "anglers loop" or "bowline bend" in the middle of your spectra line and save the weight, cost and clanging on the decks of the stainless rings.

#14 alcoholfunnycar

alcoholfunnycar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 161 posts
  • Interests:Fast cars, fast boats.

Posted 03 January 2012 - 05:42 PM

Trash the the two stainless rings also! Just tie a simple "anglers loop" or "bowline bend" in the middle of your spectra line and save the weight, cost and clanging on the decks of the stainless rings.


+1 , but you still likely have some kind of shackle on there anyway. Not sure if a soft shackle would be worth dealing with....?

#15 LakeHopper

LakeHopper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 595 posts
  • Location:Fort Worth, Texas

Posted 03 January 2012 - 07:59 PM

If you want to get really clever with the spectra, run some bungy cord down the middle of it. This should keep the bridles snug against the pole when on deck. Each piece of the cord should be long enough to be pulled out to the full length of each of the bits of spectra without being close to its limits, but short enough to still be under some tension when "slack" against the pole.

Last boat I sailed on had this and it was fucking brilliant.

that is fucking brilliant.

#16 Merit 25

Merit 25

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,658 posts
  • Location:VA and MD USA

Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:36 PM


Trash the the two stainless rings also! Just tie a simple "anglers loop" or "bowline bend" in the middle of your spectra line and save the weight, cost and clanging on the decks of the stainless rings.


+1 , but you still likely have some kind of shackle on there anyway. Not sure if a soft shackle would be worth dealing with....?


I have a dyneema bridles and use snap shackles on the topper and downhaul. No rings. Reason being, if you're doing W/L then the chute and pole usually come down in the same place, on the correct side, every time. Spin sheets are tied onto the clews, etc. If something goes wrong with a douse, or the pole gets stored the wrong way, it's easy to unsnap the topper or downhaul to fix quickly. Same with a bad set, Instead of re-routing a long jibsheet, having an option to unclip the pole quickly is nice. Not a "must have" but it's still nice.

Wire has no place on a spin pole. I think bare spectra is a bit too slippery for a trip line, so I used 3/16" spiderline. Easy to grip, and is really easy to see.

#17 Vagary

Vagary

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Location:Heaven

Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:44 PM

The shackles (stainless) should be on the topping lift and downhaul lines? Just shackle them to the loops you created on the spectra line of the spin pole . Are downhaul is rarely ever even un-shackled durning the season and it and the topping lift loop/spectra line are showing no sign of wear after 4+ years, 25-30 races per year.





Trash the the two stainless rings also! Just tie a simple "anglers loop" or "bowline bend" in the middle of your spectra line and save the weight, cost and clanging on the decks of the stainless rings.


+1 , but you still likely have some kind of shackle on there anyway. Not sure if a soft shackle would be worth dealing with....?



#18 Streetwise

Streetwise

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 904 posts
  • Location:Lake Champlain, Vermont, USA
  • Interests:Viper 640 #18

Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:09 PM

When you get to rigging the uphaul and downhaul, it can be nice to have the downhaul double-ended and led to the outboard clutch on each side of the cockpit so the guy trimmer can adjust on either side. I also like having lopez blocks at the mast for uphaul and both downhaul sides, so the bowman can bring the pole up and down without help from the cockpit. If you rig them right, you can pull free of the lopez cleats from the cockpit.

Cheers,

jason

#19 UniGor

UniGor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 891 posts
  • Location:The Bar

Posted 04 January 2012 - 01:20 PM


If you want to get really clever with the spectra, run some bungy cord down the middle of it. This should keep the bridles snug against the pole when on deck. Each piece of the cord should be long enough to be pulled out to the full length of each of the bits of spectra without being close to its limits, but short enough to still be under some tension when "slack" against the pole.

Last boat I sailed on had this and it was fucking brilliant.


How did you fix the bungy in there on your boat? Siezing?

I have no idea - never studied it closely. It was supplied like that (Nordic carbon pole that came with a brand new X332 Sport).

I suppose it could be lock stitched & seized at either end of the bridle and 'included' in the bowline to the pole fitting/stainless loop for added security.

#20 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:28 PM



If you want to get really clever with the spectra, run some bungy cord down the middle of it. This should keep the bridles snug against the pole when on deck. Each piece of the cord should be long enough to be pulled out to the full length of each of the bits of spectra without being close to its limits, but short enough to still be under some tension when "slack" against the pole.

Last boat I sailed on had this and it was fucking brilliant.


How did you fix the bungy in there on your boat? Siezing?

I have no idea - never studied it closely. It was supplied like that (Nordic carbon pole that came with a brand new X332 Sport).

I suppose it could be lock stitched & seized at either end of the bridle and 'included' in the bowline to the pole fitting/stainless loop for added security.


Lockstiched and siezed is what I was thinking. Thanks for the tip on this! I suppose it's kind of like running a bungie down your harness tether. One of those, gee why didn't I think of thats.

#21 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:57 PM

When you get to rigging the uphaul and downhaul, it can be nice to have the downhaul double-ended and led to the outboard clutch on each side of the cockpit so the guy trimmer can adjust on either side. I also like having lopez blocks at the mast for uphaul and both downhaul sides, so the bowman can bring the pole up and down without help from the cockpit. If you rig them right, you can pull free of the lopez cleats from the cockpit.

Cheers,

jason

Not on a 26'er. just run it to a swivel cleat midshps with a fairlead just ahead of it. IBID toppy. Marks on both lines for standard set point. And on a 26'er who needs a "Guy Trimmer" in anything under 25knots? KITE trimmer has sheet in one hand, guy in the other.

#22 Streetwise

Streetwise

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 904 posts
  • Location:Lake Champlain, Vermont, USA
  • Interests:Viper 640 #18

Posted 04 January 2012 - 04:27 PM


When you get to rigging the uphaul and downhaul, it can be nice to have the downhaul double-ended and led to the outboard clutch on each side of the cockpit so the guy trimmer can adjust on either side. I also like having lopez blocks at the mast for uphaul and both downhaul sides, so the bowman can bring the pole up and down without help from the cockpit. If you rig them right, you can pull free of the lopez cleats from the cockpit.

Cheers,

jason

Not on a 26'er. just run it to a swivel cleat midshps with a fairlead just ahead of it. IBID toppy. Marks on both lines for standard set point. And on a 26'er who needs a "Guy Trimmer" in anything under 25knots? KITE trimmer has sheet in one hand, guy in the other.


Makes sense. Consider my advice for a 33 footer! :)

Should we mention twings for the 26 footer?

Cheers,

jason

#23 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:47 PM

On my boat I have the topping lift on the mast so that you can do it yourself when gybing the pole. The downhaul leads to the cockpit. Now that I think about it though, it probably would be handy to double-end the downhaul on to the mast too. I have single line end-for-end and twings on a 30-footer are NOT optional!

#24 wristwister

wristwister

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:37 PM

Yeah, I've been considering twings on my boat. Heard a lot about those twings, seems like a pretty good idea. My friends all talk about their twings and they make fun of me for not having twings. Yeah, I think I'll look into that whole twing thing ...





... what the fuck is a twing?

#25 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:49 PM

... what the fuck is a twing?


Light blocks on light strings, mounted on the rails somewhat amidship. The spin sheet/guys are fed through them and then aft to the turning blocks. When sheeted and cleated in, the line is at the right angle for a foreguy, when let all the way out, the line leads directly back to the aft turning block: the proper location for the sheet.

#26 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:57 PM


... what the fuck is a twing?


Light blocks on light strings, mounted on the rails somewhat amidship. The spin sheet/guys are fed through them and then aft to the turning blocks. When sheeted and cleated in, the line is at the right angle for a foreguy, when let all the way out, the line leads directly back to the aft turning block: the proper location for the sheet.



Widest part of the boat is preferred.

#27 Merit 25

Merit 25

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,658 posts
  • Location:VA and MD USA

Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:57 PM

It's an adjustable lead for the spinnaker sheet and guy. Mostly used on the guy on small boats that don't use a downhaul for the pole. Can be cranked on in heavy air to combat the death roll.

#28 wristwister

wristwister

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:05 PM

So if I'm understanding right, this "twing" allows one sheet to act as both spinnaker sheet or guy, right? If the pole is to port, the twing would be pulled in so the port spinnaker sheet acts as a guy, and the starboard twing would be let all the way out so the sheet can act like ... a sheet.

Is this correct? If so, I LIKE it! A LOT!

#29 Ultraman

Ultraman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 404 posts
  • Location:Vancouver

Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:19 PM

So if I'm understanding right, this "twing" allows one sheet to act as both spinnaker sheet or guy, right? If the pole is to port, the twing would be pulled in so the port spinnaker sheet acts as a guy, and the starboard twing would be let all the way out so the sheet can act like ... a sheet.

Exactly!

#30 Grind4Beer

Grind4Beer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 188 posts

Posted 05 January 2012 - 04:40 AM

Twings? ... Find a J24, get its owner to show you how the spin sheet/guys and tweekers are rigged and used, then take it all with a grain of salt and do whatever makes sense for your boat. Eyeballing your boat's layout on sailboatdata.com; it looks like your mast is at least 4ft forward of max beam, so the twing-fittings could be near the rail a bit forward of midway on the cabin window. There's a photo on that site, showing a blooperish sail but it also looks like it has a guy-block, about where you'd turn the twing.

http://www.sailboatd...sp?class_id=605

#31 GMiller

GMiller

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 368 posts

Posted 05 January 2012 - 09:14 PM

I agree the spectra can be slippery for the trip lines, but I just wove some trip tails where my foredeck wants them. I just wove the line into the smaller diameter spectra. Beats having a trip line fail at the worst possible time.

#32 marinergeek

marinergeek

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 22 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda, FL

Posted 29 January 2012 - 03:16 AM

Do the end jaws point up or down, and is there a reason why? Mine point down. The vinyl coated wire and associated bits appear to be early 80's and there are some good suggestions here I am going to try. Thanks

#33 Merit 25

Merit 25

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,658 posts
  • Location:VA and MD USA

Posted 29 January 2012 - 03:34 AM

Do the end jaws point up or down, and is there a reason why?

Jaws up. If the pole skies, you can still get it off the ring. Also, when you trip the outboard end, gravity helps release the guy, instead of having to trip, then lift the pole off the guy. Jaws up, all the time.

#34 wristwister

wristwister

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 05:46 AM

Jaws up. If the pole skies, you can still get it off the ring. Also, when you trip the outboard end, gravity helps release the guy, instead of having to trip, then lift the pole off the guy. Jaws up, all the time.


Whew! I got it right! I had a 50/50 chance.

Thanks again for the advice everybody. Here's a picture of the proud papa with my econo-pole:

Posted Image

#35 soling2003

soling2003

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,167 posts
  • Location:Pacific NW
  • Interests:sailing, of course, retired now. Diving, skiing, etc.

Posted 01 February 2012 - 05:53 AM

Great shot. Twings are nice, but on a Col. 26 in the NW, probably not needed. Depends on your crew. If you keep the twings on and change them when you gybe, then fine, but it is one more line you have to worry about while gybing. Just ease the foreguy a few inches, gybe and you are set. Most of the time you wont have to even ease the foreguy while gybing. You have your choice, twings or be more watchful of the foreguy.

Make sure that you rig the trigger lines snug so all you have to do is grab it anywhere and pull up or down to release, not necessarily pull along the pole. Makes it real easy to release. On a pole that size, run each trip line to within 2 ft of the other end of the pole, and you can trip the far side even if you are up on the bow. The shock cord on the bridles is a good idea, as well as a very short one around the mast with a plastic hook on it so you can hook the topping lift to it at deck level and have it hooked to the bridle when you get close to the weather mark. Keeps the topping lift out of the way during your last tack, yet it is already attached to the bridle and ready to go.

On another note, when I was sailing a Col. 26, High Life many, many years ago, we would use a small headsail as a double headsail rig on longer races upwind, worked really well.

Enjoy the spinnaker!

#36 micha571

micha571

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 234 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:34 PM

The shock cord on the bridles is a good idea, as well as a very short one around the mast with a plastic hook on it so you can hook the topping lift to it at deck level and have it hooked to the bridle when you get close to the weather mark. Keeps the topping lift out of the way during your last tack, yet it is already attached to the bridle and ready to go.


On our boat, we leave the topping lift permanently attached to the bridle on the spinnaker pole. When not in use, the pole is stored along the boom and the topping lift tucked away under one of the reef hooks at the front end of the boom. Works well.

Michael

#37 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,849 posts

Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:05 PM

Consider what courses you sail. On my J-24 the spin pole with the center rings and no bridal works brilliantly on W/L courses but when we start to reach up the pole begins bending. If you're doing a fair amount of reaching, the bridles seem to provide more support.

#38 marinergeek

marinergeek

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 22 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda, FL

Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:11 AM

On my boat, there are two sliding rings on the mast track for the spinnaker pole. One tilts up, and another tilts down. Why two, and why the different orientation? Sorry if this seems obvious but it isn't to me. Thanks.

#39 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 407 posts

Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:46 AM

On my boat, there are two sliding rings on the mast track for the spinnaker pole. One tilts up, and another tilts down. Why two, and why the different orientation? Sorry if this seems obvious but it isn't to me. Thanks.


Is the track long enough that you could store the pole vertically by attaching it to both rings?

#40 marinergeek

marinergeek

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 22 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda, FL

Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:16 PM

Is the track long enough that you could store the pole vertically by attaching it to both rings?


No, the track is only ~6 ft long. The boat is an express 27... here is a picture of a sister ship that has a straight ring on the track.
My bottom ring is welded up ~15 degrees, top ring down the same.
I am in the process of updating all the spinnaker equipment. Added a boom sock, added twings using small snatch blocks, changed the fore guy etc. The pole rings are probably not a big deal, I am just trying to understand the "why".
Thanks

#41 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 407 posts

Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:46 PM


Is the track long enough that you could store the pole vertically by attaching it to both rings?


No, the track is only ~6 ft long. The boat is an express 27... here is a picture of a sister ship that has a straight ring on the track.
My bottom ring is welded up ~15 degrees, top ring down the same.
I am in the process of updating all the spinnaker equipment. Added a boom sock, added twings using small snatch blocks, changed the fore guy etc. The pole rings are probably not a big deal, I am just trying to understand the "why".
Thanks

There is a two pole spinnaker gybe, but there's no way someone would want that on a express 27. The cars like that with the pins and holes can be slow to adjust, and nearly impossible under load. Maybe they just wanted a second car so they could move the pole height faster?

#42 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,713 posts

Posted 07 February 2012 - 10:46 AM



Is the track long enough that you could store the pole vertically by attaching it to both rings?


No, the track is only ~6 ft long. The boat is an express 27... here is a picture of a sister ship that has a straight ring on the track.
My bottom ring is welded up ~15 degrees, top ring down the same.
I am in the process of updating all the spinnaker equipment. Added a boom sock, added twings using small snatch blocks, changed the fore guy etc. The pole rings are probably not a big deal, I am just trying to understand the "why".
Thanks

There is a two pole spinnaker gybe, but there's no way someone would want that on a express 27. The cars like that with the pins and holes can be slow to adjust, and nearly impossible under load. Maybe they just wanted a second car so they could move the pole height faster?


Wonder if they used the bottom ring for a reaching strut and the angle is for when you have the two cars near each other?

#43 Ultraman

Ultraman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 404 posts
  • Location:Vancouver

Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:17 PM

If the boat has been sailed to Hawaii before or offshore often this would make sense for a two pole gybe, which is pretty easy when you are shorthanded.

#44 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:50 PM


So if I'm understanding right, this "twing" allows one sheet to act as both spinnaker sheet or guy, right? If the pole is to port, the twing would be pulled in so the port spinnaker sheet acts as a guy, and the starboard twing would be let all the way out so the sheet can act like ... a sheet.

Exactly!


Erm, no!

#45 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 07 February 2012 - 07:52 PM



So if I'm understanding right, this "twing" allows one sheet to act as both spinnaker sheet or guy, right? If the pole is to port, the twing would be pulled in so the port spinnaker sheet acts as a guy, and the starboard twing would be let all the way out so the sheet can act like ... a sheet.

Exactly!


Erm, no!



We'll use the "sheet twing" to keep the sheet off the boom when running deep.

#46 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:21 AM




So if I'm understanding right, this "twing" allows one sheet to act as both spinnaker sheet or guy, right? If the pole is to port, the twing would be pulled in so the port spinnaker sheet acts as a guy, and the starboard twing would be let all the way out so the sheet can act like ... a sheet.

Exactly!


Erm, no!



We'll use the "sheet twing" to keep the sheet off the boom when running deep.

Why? Doing so unecessarily chokes the kite

#47 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:38 AM





So if I'm understanding right, this "twing" allows one sheet to act as both spinnaker sheet or guy, right? If the pole is to port, the twing would be pulled in so the port spinnaker sheet acts as a guy, and the starboard twing would be let all the way out so the sheet can act like ... a sheet.

Exactly!


Erm, no!



We'll use the "sheet twing" to keep the sheet off the boom when running deep.

Why? Doing so unecessarily chokes the kite



We twing the sheet just enough to keep it off the boom. By keeping it off the boom it helps to eliminate any extra friction for trimmng and helps to prevent any premature wear on the sheet.. Never been on a boat that doesn't do it.

#48 Honey_Badger

Honey_Badger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 88 posts
  • Location:Cleve Land that I love
  • Interests:Cricheting, quilting, parcheesi

Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:20 PM

Agree on the sheet twing - keeping it off the boom is critical to having a spin sheet that can be used again and again and it really doesn't choke the kite any more than letting the sheet hit the boom. The other function of the twing is helping keep the tack end of the pole down. Think of the angle the guy pulls on with no twing - it's very flat to the turning block on the stern. With a twing, the guy pulls down AND aft. Twings are also really nice in heavy air to choke the kite down a bit during gybes to make things a bit more controlled - pull them both half on.

We've run spectra bridles on our T-10 for 2+ seasons now. I highly recommend an eye splice in the middle of the line - it's light, quiet, and very strong. We rigged it up in about 30 min before the start of a Sunday beer can race and haven't looked back. We've never had an issue with it - and we're known as the boat who never takes their kite down (hell on a 10 it ain't that big!) unless it's really honking, we've got 8+ footers, AND we're short handed. And our boat does 80+ races a year not including transport sailing.

As said before about the pole, jaws up. If the guy twing is released by the pit correctly the guy will literally fly out of the jaws leaving your bowman a nice, light, unloaded pole. In light air, you'll need to unclip the mast end first and dump the guy out of the jaws. So is life.

We will also be running a double-ended downhaul (there is actually a difference between downhauls & foreguys), which I'm looking forward to. We usually sail light so pit is last filled (sadly) so before I go get the pole up, I usually let the downhaul off myself before I go forward.

#49 Boardfun

Boardfun

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Location:Halifax, NS
  • Interests:Windsurfing, surfing, snowboarding, and yes, sailing.

Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:33 PM

Twings are also known as Barber-hauls.
Anybody thought of using Amsteel ?
Thanks,
James


uote name='Honey_Badger' timestamp='1329495644' post='3589737']
Agree on the sheet twing - keeping it off the boom is critical to having a spin sheet that can be used again and again and it really doesn't choke the kite any more than letting the sheet hit the boom. The other function of the twing is helping keep the tack end of the pole down. Think of the angle the guy pulls on with no twing - it's very flat to the turning block on the stern. With a twing, the guy pulls down AND aft. Twings are also really nice in heavy air to choke the kite down a bit during gybes to make things a bit more controlled - pull them both half on.

We've run spectra bridles on our T-10 for 2+ seasons now. I highly recommend an eye splice in the middle of the line - it's light, quiet, and very strong. We rigged it up in about 30 min before the start of a Sunday beer can race and haven't looked back. We've never had an issue with it - and we're known as the boat who never takes their kite down (hell on a 10 it ain't that big!) unless it's really honking, we've got 8+ footers, AND we're short handed. And our boat does 80+ races a year not including transport sailing.

As said before about the pole, jaws up. If the guy twing is released by the pit correctly the guy will literally fly out of the jaws leaving your bowman a nice, light, unloaded pole. In light air, you'll need to unclip the mast end first and dump the guy out of the jaws. So is life.

We will also be running a double-ended downhaul (there is actually a difference between downhauls & foreguys), which I'm looking forward to. We usually sail light so pit is last filled (sadly) so before I go get the pole up, I usually let the downhaul off myself before I go forward.
[/quote]

#50 Merit 25

Merit 25

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,658 posts
  • Location:VA and MD USA

Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:48 PM

Twings are also known as Barber-hauls.
Anybody thought of using Amsteel ?
Thanks,
James

You could, but then you'd need to splice them something bigger to get them to cleat. I just stripped the cover of my 1/4" line and they work fine. Really easy to make.

#51 haligonian winterr

haligonian winterr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 706 posts
  • Location:Halifax, NS
  • Interests:Going Fast.

Posted 23 May 2012 - 01:28 PM

[quote name='Boardfun' timestamp='1337693624' post='3722711']
Twings are also known as Barber-hauls.
Anybody thought of using Amsteel ?
Thanks,
James

Never heard of anyone referring to twings as barberhauls, we call them tweakers on our boat (the twings), but I've only ever heard barberhaulers being the line that trims the jib sheet inboard, could definitely be wrong though.

HW

#52 Ultraman

Ultraman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 404 posts
  • Location:Vancouver

Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:43 PM


Twings are also known as Barber-hauls.
Anybody thought of using Amsteel ?
Thanks,
James

Never heard of anyone referring to twings as barberhauls, we call them tweakers on our boat (the twings), but I've only ever heard barberhaulers being the line that trims the jib sheet inboard, could definitely be wrong though.

HW

I agree with this. Barber haulers are for jibs/genoas. Twings or Tweakers are for Spinnaker lines to make them into guys or trim the sheet down below the boom when reaching.

#53 haligonian winterr

haligonian winterr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 706 posts
  • Location:Halifax, NS
  • Interests:Going Fast.

Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:26 AM



Twings are also known as Barber-hauls.
Anybody thought of using Amsteel ?
Thanks,
James

Never heard of anyone referring to twings as barberhauls, we call them tweakers on our boat (the twings), but I've only ever heard barberhaulers being the line that trims the jib sheet inboard, could definitely be wrong though.

HW

I agree with this. Barber haulers are for jibs/genoas. Twings or Tweakers are for Spinnaker lines to make them into guys or trim the sheet down below the boom when reaching.


Your bowman's knees can also be a useful replacement for twings, although they usually cost at least two beer after the race.

HW

#54 mustang__1

mustang__1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,283 posts
  • Location:Philly, by way of Sarasota and Newport...

Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:00 AM

Never heard of anyone referring to twings as barberhauls, we call them tweakers on our boat (the twings), but I've only ever heard barberhaulers being the line that trims the jib sheet inboard, could definitely be wrong though.

HW

barberhauls pull the jib outboard, inhaulers pull the jib inboard. twings and tweakers pull on the kite sheet/guy.

#55 wristwister

wristwister

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts

Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:59 AM

So lemme get this straight, in order to sail my boat effectively I need to rig it with jib sheets, spinnaker sheets, spinnaker guys, foreguys, topping lift, downhaul, inhaulers, twings, tweakers and barberhauls? No problem, I'll get right on that!

#56 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 407 posts

Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:40 AM

You'll need another line to move your jib leads forward too. Plus main cunningham and and jib cunningham. That should cover your sail controls. You still don't have your standing rigging setup, so you'll need an adjustable backstack, check stays, runners, and a babystay too.

But twings and tweakers are the same things, so it's not nearly as complex as it seems.

#57 duncan (the other one)

duncan (the other one)

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,719 posts
  • Location:Siderney

Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:08 AM

So lemme get this straight, in order to sail my boat effectively I need to rig it with jib sheets, spinnaker sheets, spinnaker guys, foreguys, topping lift, downhaul, inhaulers, twings, tweakers and barberhauls? No problem, I'll get right on that!


you forgot the raft of fuckers. Down, out, in, up etc.

#58 jwandling

jwandling

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Location:Hampton Roads, VA

Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:06 PM

Here's my advice.

First, screws, and don't forget the anti-sieze.

Second, take the vinyl-coated cable, carefully place it in a plastic bag, and then place that bag in a local garbage can. Or, if you are into recycling, you can throw it in the back of a passing scrap guys pickup truck or take it back to "the local metals joint". If you get $5 bucks back that might make it worth the gas money.

Third, take the crimp ends and crimp tool and your receipt and return to West Marine or wherever you got that stuff and demand your money back because they didn't know shit selling you that stuff in the first place.

Fourth, get two stainless rings, approx. 1-inch diameter and 3/16ths thickness and about 25' of 1/4" single-braid dyneema/spectra. It doesn't matter what kind, the gray stuff is fine. Cut it in half, cut the halves in half. Tie two of these pieces to each ring using a bowline. Making sure that the "inboard" and "outboard" ends are tied on the same (i.e. "top" and "bottom" of the pole), tie each dyneema ring assembly to the each end of the pole using bowlines. What you are looking for is approximately a 30-45degree from the center to each pole end. It's balance of reduce compression on the pole compared to dealing with the slack line. You are done.

Fifth, depending on what kind of trip the jaws use, you will need another piece of spectra for that line, although it will be much thinner. Get as thick as will fit through the trigger or pull. Bowlines work fine for this as well and you can cheaply fine tune using line to get the length of all these lines that you are comfortable with.

I like the dyneema/spectra approach, but am wondering why not just let each ring slide on its bridle?  I keep my pole on the boom (in small sections of pvc)  and would like all of the slack to go to the gooseneck end when the pole is in the holder.



#59 haligonian winterr

haligonian winterr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 706 posts
  • Location:Halifax, NS
  • Interests:Going Fast.

Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:18 PM

If its living on the boom just have the foredeckie chuck it in the pipe. Length of topper/downhaul will be close to the same when its out vs stowed, and when you really crank on either pole control, the rings will slide and you will lose all leverage and control on the pole. Same reason why big boats have the control lines led to the end of the pole.

HW


Here's my advice.

First, screws, and don't forget the anti-sieze.

Second, take the vinyl-coated cable, carefully place it in a plastic bag, and then place that bag in a local garbage can. Or, if you are into recycling, you can throw it in the back of a passing scrap guys pickup truck or take it back to "the local metals joint". If you get $5 bucks back that might make it worth the gas money.

Third, take the crimp ends and crimp tool and your receipt and return to West Marine or wherever you got that stuff and demand your money back because they didn't know shit selling you that stuff in the first place.

Fourth, get two stainless rings, approx. 1-inch diameter and 3/16ths thickness and about 25' of 1/4" single-braid dyneema/spectra. It doesn't matter what kind, the gray stuff is fine. Cut it in half, cut the halves in half. Tie two of these pieces to each ring using a bowline. Making sure that the "inboard" and "outboard" ends are tied on the same (i.e. "top" and "bottom" of the pole), tie each dyneema ring assembly to the each end of the pole using bowlines. What you are looking for is approximately a 30-45degree from the center to each pole end. It's balance of reduce compression on the pole compared to dealing with the slack line. You are done.

Fifth, depending on what kind of trip the jaws use, you will need another piece of spectra for that line, although it will be much thinner. Get as thick as will fit through the trigger or pull. Bowlines work fine for this as well and you can cheaply fine tune using line to get the length of all these lines that you are comfortable with.

I like the dyneema/spectra approach, but am wondering why not just let each ring slide on its bridle?  I keep my pole on the boom (in small sections of pvc)  and would like all of the slack to go to the gooseneck end when the pole is in the holder.


#60 JeffR

JeffR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,059 posts
  • Location:Newport, RI

Posted 25 July 2013 - 03:27 PM

late to the party, but one nice mod to what you did with the spectra bridles...(maybe over the winter) use buntline hitches instead of bowlines, more compact. Cover the knots with heat shrink tubing.  Looks cleaner and won't catch on anything.



#61 Merit 25

Merit 25

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,658 posts
  • Location:VA and MD USA

Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:18 PM

Usually you'll use a foreguy on a bigger boat, dip pole gybes, and a downhaul on a smaller boat, but not both.  So that'll save you one more line. :)

 

So lemme get this straight, in order to sail my boat effectively I need to rig it with jib sheets, spinnaker sheets, spinnaker guys, foreguys, topping lift, downhaul, inhaulers, twings, tweakers and barberhauls? No problem, I'll get right on that!






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users