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Italian cruise ship tragedy


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#1 Tony-F18

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 11:24 AM

BBC News - Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16558910

Posted Image
Posted Image



Just unbelievable that something like this could happen in a time where you can run a chartplotter on an iphone. :(

#2 'moondance44

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:21 PM

BBC News - Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16558910

Posted Image
Posted Image



Just unbelievable that something like this could happen in a time where you can run a chartplotter on an iphone. :(


HORRIBLE.

Don't forget where this happened. Colombus was a Spainiard.

#3 Peragrin

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:31 PM


BBC News - Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16558910

Posted Image
Posted Image



Just unbelievable that something like this could happen in a time where you can run a chartplotter on an iphone. :(


HORRIBLE.

Don't forget where this happened. Colombus was a Spainiard.

um Colombus was an Italian.

However this is horrible. there are still 69 people not accounted for.

from the images I looks like the she ran over a rock and at the bottom of a wave landed on top of it.

the articles state a 20 degree list but those photos look over 60 degrees to me. ah never mind I found an image from the night that showed a 20 degree list

#4 Tom Ray

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:50 PM

BBC News - Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16558910

Posted Image
Posted Image



Just unbelievable that something like this could happen in a time where you can run a chartplotter on an iphone. :(


Analysis
Richard Westcott BBC transport correspondent

....
All ships have to meet safety standards set out by the International Maritime Organisation. Crews are trained to deal with emergency and cruise companies stress this kind of accident is rare.


A reef? In the ocean? Chance in a million.

Sorry, but it had to be done.

#5 sailordave

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:55 PM

How do you say "would you like fries w/ your meal" in Italian?

cause that's about the only job "Capt" will be able to get now!

#6 Soley

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:59 PM

I reckon there had to have been a major power loss on the bridge for this to happen.

Friday 13th, Italian Officers? Nahhh wouldn't have wanted to be there....

#7 Earl Boebert

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:10 PM

Joseph Conrad's reflections on the sinking of the Titanic:

http://www.online-li...and-letters/23/

Not a lot has changed in the "bigger must be better" department.

Cheers,

Earl

#8 Punani Jackson

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:41 PM

Unbelievable that this could happen.

#9 Jambalaya

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:56 PM

Terrible, 69 people unaccounted for.

Interview with a crewman said it was during the dinner service 2 hours out from the mainland, boat definitely hit something very hard with near immediate list. He reported panic and fighting amongst passengers. The captain turned the ship towards the island to attempt to get it into shallow water. Reports of many passengers jumping into the water as launching the lifeboats was slow and difficult with listing.

#10 bugger

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:56 PM

I was on a Navy ship that bumped the bottom pretty good (no one hurt).

Groundings of large ships are rare events that are usually attributed to some bizarre combination of failures. Someone not paying as much attention as they should. A burned out lightbulb. Something else shut down for maintenance. Mistaking one lighthouse for another. Individually, all minor things but catastrophic when they all occur at the same time.

No it should not happen but it does. The cause(s) of this will probably be made clear in time.

#11 Jambalaya

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:58 PM

I tried to find the track on AIS but could not

#12 Masala

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:20 PM

From the photos I've seen, and looking at my Italian Waters Pilot, it looks like the ship ended up at the port of Giglio Porto, aka Giglio Marina. It's on the east side of Isola Giglio. Google maps is grainy on this port, but also looks like the same photos in the media.

A terrible, wasteful tragedy. I hope that the loss of life is not as great as is first reported - 70 people missing.

And totally preventable. I'll wager the bridge officers are found to have been negligent.

#13 LarryE

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:25 PM

Great, we're leaving on an cruise tomorrow.

#14 Sailor90

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:31 PM

Terrible, 69 people unaccounted for.

Interview with a crewman said it was during the dinner service 2 hours out from the mainland, boat definitely hit something very hard with near immediate list. He reported panic and fighting amongst passengers. The captain turned the ship towards the island to attempt to get it into shallow water. Reports of many passengers jumping into the water as launching the lifeboats was slow and difficult with listing.


Just as I suspected.

#15 davidprobable

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:32 PM

Remember, the fundamental component of tragedy, is inevitablility. If you google inevitable you will find most links are Italian. QED

#16 Charlie Foxtrot

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:50 PM

Remember the Andrea Doria? The Italian crew fought the passengers for space on the lifeboats.

A ship with an Italian crew and Italian passengers would have been a monkey house.

#17 walterbshaffer

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:03 PM

Terrible, 69 people unaccounted for.

Interview with a crewman said it was during the dinner service 2 hours out from the mainland, boat definitely hit something very hard with near immediate list. He reported panic and fighting amongst passengers. The captain turned the ship towards the island to attempt to get it into shallow water. Reports of many passengers jumping into the water as launching the lifeboats was slow and difficult with listing.


Absolutely unbelievable - what a horrible event.

#18 mo fuzz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:22 PM

Remember the Andrea Doria? The Italian crew fought the passengers for space on the lifeboats.

A ship with an Italian crew and Italian passengers would have been a monkey house.


How about the Greek cruise ship Oceanus?

The captain was one of the first ashore while hundreds of passengers were still on the stricken vessel.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/MTS_Oceanos

#19 jhc

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:37 PM

Great, we're leaving on an cruise tomorrow.

Pack a life jacket!

#20 jhc

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:44 PM

I just viewed a video showing the gash in the bottom of the ship...and there is a HUGE rock embedded in the bottom. Was not a sand bar that ship hit, was a rock, and it broke it off!

#21 Charlie Foxtrot

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:50 PM

Avranas (Kaptain of the Oceanus) stated, "When I give the order abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave. Abandon is for everybody. If some people want to stay, they can stay."

Forgot about the Oceanus. Thanks!

#22 'moondance44

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 05:58 PM

While all the experts are speculating let's throw in a collision with a (pick you nationality) submarine conspiracy theory. Condolennces to those lost.

#23 jhc

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:00 PM

While all the experts are speculating let's throw in a collision with a (pick you nationality) submarine conspiracy theory. Condolennces to those lost.

What, a submarine continent? Atlantis? There is a huge rock embedded in the bottom of that ship.

#24 edelweis

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:14 PM

What, a submarine continent? Atlantis? There is a huge rock embedded in the bottom of that ship.

Posted Image

more pics here

#25 Tom Ray

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:26 PM


What, a submarine continent? Atlantis? There is a huge rock embedded in the bottom of that ship.

Posted Image

more pics here


Makes you wonder why the submarine had a rock on top of it, doesn't it?

#26 us7070

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:30 PM

And totally preventable. I'll wager the bridge officers are found to have been negligent.



yuh think...?

it was either the officer in charge, or the rock that was negligent..., and my money's on the officer.

#27 P_Wop

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:32 PM

Hey, that'll buff out.

Had to be said.

Really hope she doesn't start leaking fuel oil or other nasties. Giglio is a lovely and quite pristine little island. Would hate to see it mucked up.

Any salvage operators here? How the heck to you get this one righted and away, then?

#28 Capt John

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:36 PM

Hey Cap let's cruise closer to the lighthouse for a photo op!

#29 Tom Ray

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:37 PM

Hey, that'll buff out.

Had to be said.


Just to get a couple more out of the way, what's it rate and can it beat a J-24 (to the bottom)?

#30 Capt John

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:54 PM

One possibility?

#31 mo fuzz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:58 PM

While all the experts are speculating let's throw in a collision with a (pick you nationality) submarine conspiracy theory. Condolennces to those lost.


Doubt a submarine. But those Mediterranean rocks are stealthy, and are always moving around.

#32 smv

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:20 PM

How do you say "would you like fries w/ your meal" in Italian?

cause that's about the only job "Capt" will be able to get now!


vuoi le patatine?

#33 Gouvernail

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:24 PM

When Italian ships pasta reefs dago wop.

#34 Boo-Yah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:37 PM

"Earlier Saturday Francesco Schettino, captain of the Costa Concordia, had told Italian television that the vessel had hit a rocky spur while cruising in waters which, according to the charts, should have been safe.

"As we were navigating at cruise speed, we hit a rocky spur," he told Tgcom24 television station:

"According to the nautical chart, there should have been sufficient water underneath us," he added."




I also heard the crew failed to Tebow....



#35 trenace

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:41 PM

"Earlier Saturday Francesco Schettino, captain of the Costa Concordia, had told Italian television that the vessel had hit a rocky spur while cruising in waters which, according to the charts, should have been safe.

"As we were navigating at cruise speed, we hit a rocky spur," he told Tgcom24 television station:

"According to the nautical chart, there should have been sufficient water underneath us," he added."


I dunno, there certainly seems to be another rock pointing out of the water really close to the ship:

Posted Image







#36 us7070

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:45 PM


"Earlier Saturday Francesco Schettino, captain of the Costa Concordia, had told Italian television that the vessel had hit a rocky spur while cruising in waters which, according to the charts, should have been safe.

"As we were navigating at cruise speed, we hit a rocky spur," he told Tgcom24 television station:

"According to the nautical chart, there should have been sufficient water underneath us," he added."


I dunno, there certainly seems to be another rock pointing out of the water really close to the ship:

Posted Image



there's a report that he purposely altered course toward shallow water after the initial grounding.

#37 trenace

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:46 PM

Yes, that's true, I had forgotten that. He might have made it some distance after hitting the rock.

#38 jhc

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:10 PM

My take, that the captain was making for shore after the encounter with the rock. Was attempting to keep the ship from sinking in deep water, with a much bigger loss of life.

#39 Kent H

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:13 PM

This is a kinda wait before passing judgement thing. Most will not like this post but we are very lucky that it may turn out to be under 100 dead. That ship can carry I believe 3700 passengers plus crew. It appears to me that the ship has completely rolled and is not floating on its side. The side of the ship appears to be resting on the bottom. When this has happened even on naval ships the loss of crew is very large. If this stays around 100 dead then it barely ranks an entry. So if the story is true that they kept it afloat long enough to run it aground that action saved the vast majority of the people aboard. When ships have rolled in the past the passengers are by then above deck. Very ugly.

Too bad that it did not sink on an even keel. The captain needed some form of flat bottom not one of these med rock islands that slope down to the bottom.







Here is another modern sinking with large loss of life. MS Estonia

#40 'moondance44

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:19 PM

My take, that the captain was making for shore after the encounter with the rock. Was attempting to keep the ship from sinking in deep water, with a much bigger loss of life.

Yep. An initial report was he hit 'something' not necesssarily a rock, and headed for shallow water to beach her.

#41 trenace

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:23 PM

http://italychronicl...ordia-accident/


Update 20:20 January 14th, 2012:

The captain of the Costa Concordia cruise ship has been arrested and accused of abandoning the ship while passengers were still aboard. Passengers have talked of chaos aboard in the moments after the ship hit a submerged rocky outcrop. It has been reported that there were not enough lifebelts and lifeboats. It is suspected that passengers and crew may still be in the hull of the ship. Rescuers have not yet reached all areas of the liner which is resting on the sea bed just off the Italian island of Giglio. Scuba divers exploring the ship have stopped searching for survivors owing to lack of light.

Update 18:47 January 14th, 2012:

Apparently 60 people are still missing after the Costa Concordia disaster. The death toll remains at 3 for the moment. The number of those reported injured has risen from the initial figure of 14 to 67. It appears as if the Costa Concordia was sailing far too close to land although it is not clear why. Investigators are trying to establish whether the disaster was caused by human error or malfunctioning instrumentation. The ship's captain claims that the craft was following an approved route and that the rocks the boat struck were not shown on charts.The Costa Concordia has the marine equivalent of a 'black box' and this will be analyzed to discover the cause of the incident.

#42 krispy kreme

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:23 PM

Meanwhile, Costa Cruise Lines is owned by Gianni Onorato, related to Vincenzo Onorato.

http://www.cnn.com/2...aths/?hpt=hp_t1

#43 DA-WOODY

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:34 PM

UFO theorist's concluding that


the ship was taken out





by a RockHitShip Posted Image









Coat and Hat Please Posted Image

#44 DA-WOODY

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:41 PM















#45 trenace

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:50 PM

From the second video, it appears that the ship spent quite some time at only a moderate list (20 degrees or so) and with decks well out of the water, rather than going over at-all quickly.

So as to why anyone would be trapped below would seem a question.

Hopefully it will turn out that most or all of the unaccounted-for persons simply never were aboard, or were aboard but escaped safely and, well, just haven't been accounted for.

As for the captain being arrested, my understanding is that this has no real implication: it's just what they do there in cases at all like this.

I do have to say that it's a poor show of him to have left the ship so long as there was any rescuing to be done that he could direct or aid. What was his rush? Was starting to get hungry, and the food service staff had already vamoosed?

#46 floating dutchman

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:13 PM

From the second video, it appears that the ship spent quite some time at only a moderate list (20 degrees or so) and with decks well out of the water, rather than going over at-all quickly.

So as to why anyone would be trapped below would seem a question.

Hopefully it will turn out that most or all of the unaccounted-for persons simply never were aboard, or were aboard but escaped safely and, well, just haven't been accounted for.

As for the captain being arrested, my understanding is that this has no real implication: it's just what they do there in cases at all like this.

I do have to say that it's a poor show of him to have left the ship so long as there was any rescuing to be done that he could direct or aid. What was his rush? Was starting to get hungry, and the food service staff had already vamoosed?

Looking at the photos of it on the 20 deg list looks like the power was out, No lights inside seem to be going. Only the lights that you want for using the life rafts are going and they should be able to be supplied from a deck level emergency generator.

The boat went down in hours, I actually think they did a fairly good job of getting 4000+ of in the dark.

The news reports keep metioning the "Icy waters" Does anyone know what water temps are there? Cold yes but icy?

#47 trenace

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:30 PM

About 59 F (15 C), going from what seems the nearest point listed on the Magic Seaweed surfing site: http://magicseaweed....rf-Report/3586/

Not icy, but you lose heat in it fast (stating the obvious.)

#48 Tony-F18

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:38 PM

Water temp is around 10c, which is quitle cold if all you're wearing is a tshirt.
Still 40 people missing though, reports said crew was in full panic mode with few of them speaking italian or english (probably filipino etc).

#49 SR CHIEF (RET)

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 11:13 PM

I have spent alot of time on the water near there, Italian coast charts are very accurate. Un less the chart plotter and paper charts were not corrected up to date? My guess is they were WAY inside of the intended navigation track. The bridge watch clearly was not navigating... never should have happened.

#50 iSail

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 11:41 PM

Reports said the damage section extended 50 meters, I want to see the ship plans to see how many bulkhead compartments that can flood.

Without a doubt, these ships are top heavy, and with such a high center of gravity it's almost a godsend that it didn't capsize faster.

#51 Catalina 36

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:18 AM

You would think the boat would list to the side with the biggest hole in it.

Given the boulder sticking out of the Port side, you have to wonder what the Starboard side must look like.

#52 SR CHIEF (RET)

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:29 AM

Reports said the damage section extended 50 meters, I want to see the ship plans to see how many bulkhead compartments that can flood.

Without a doubt, these ships are top heavy, and with such a high center of gravity it's almost a godsend that it didn't capsize faster.

actually on ships and boats it is medicentric height.

#53 Alpha FB

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:47 AM

Attached File  120114_sunkcruiseship.grid-8x2.jpg   32.39K   93 downloads

Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern.

Also looking at the map, the wreck is now on a heading south, while they were sailing northwards. The crew actually turned the ship around after the incident and headed for the island to get the passengers as close to help as possible - must have saved a number of lives.

So yes, major stupidity hitting the rock in the first place, but good points for getting the ship as close as possible to help afterwards

#54 Sailabout

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:55 AM

Love the interview with 'industry expert' on the BBC
"these ships are built for revenue generation not safety"

#55 12 metre

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:58 AM


Reports said the damage section extended 50 meters, I want to see the ship plans to see how many bulkhead compartments that can flood.

Without a doubt, these ships are top heavy, and with such a high center of gravity it's almost a godsend that it didn't capsize faster.

actually on ships and boats it is medicentric height.


The metacentric height is a measurement of the initial static stability of a floating body. Only applies at zero, or small angles of heel. At larger angles, CG comes into play.

#56 'moondance44

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:07 AM




And totally preventable. I'll wager the bridge officers are found to have been negligent.



yuh think...?

it was either the officer in charge, or the rock that was negligent..., and my money's on the officer.

this could be the post of the year :lol:

#57 trenace

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:12 AM

Love the interview with 'industry expert' on the BBC
"these ships are built for revenue generation not safety"

How is the ship at fault?

#58 P_Wop

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:37 AM

No hint of an oil protection boom around the wreck. Isn't that standard practice? With holes below the waterline, and the ship lying on her side it's only a matter of time before something leaks out.

#59 floating dutchman

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:43 AM

Attached File  120114_sunkcruiseship.grid-8x2.jpg   32.39K   93 downloads

Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern.

Also looking at the map, the wreck is now on a heading south, while they were sailing northwards. The crew actually turned the ship around after the incident and headed for the island to get the passengers as close to help as possible - must have saved a number of lives.

So yes, major stupidity hitting the rock in the first place, but good points for getting the ship as close as possible to help afterwards


I'm sure that's going to be the but of a joke around here soon, It's just too soon at the moment.

No hint of an oil protection boom around the wreck. Isn't that standard practice? With holes below the waterline, and the ship lying on her side it's only a matter of time before something leaks out.

After following the Rena incident here it seems that those oil booms really only work on the flat water of a harbor, Still I'm surprised that there isn't an oil slick coming out of that thing.

#60 guns68

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:50 AM

A large ship hits a reef and the captain claims it's not his fault. Did Joseph Hazelwood go back to sea?

#61 guns68

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:52 AM


Attached File  120114_sunkcruiseship.grid-8x2.jpg   32.39K   93 downloads

Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern.

Also looking at the map, the wreck is now on a heading south, while they were sailing northwards. The crew actually turned the ship around after the incident and headed for the island to get the passengers as close to help as possible - must have saved a number of lives.

So yes, major stupidity hitting the rock in the first place, but good points for getting the ship as close as possible to help afterwards


I'm sure that's going to be the but of a joke around here soon, It's just too soon at the moment.

No hint of an oil protection boom around the wreck. Isn't that standard practice? With holes below the waterline, and the ship lying on her side it's only a matter of time before something leaks out.

After following the Rena incident here it seems that those oil booms really only work on the flat water of a harbor, Still I'm surprised that there isn't an oil slick coming out of that thing.


I'm pretty surprised there is no boom around the ship as well. With that much of a list I can't imagine she's not leaking fuel/lube oil

#62 eric e

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 02:20 AM

journalist who saw the ship

said cruise ships often pass closely by at speed

said he was surprised to see it SO close

and then it got ripped open


how long have italian sailors been sailing the coast of italy?

4000, 3000 years?

captains says the charts showed it was safe to go so close

what kind of chart was he using

1 written for caesar's triremes BC?

or did that rock spur start growing....





#63 highndry

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 02:43 AM

have another look at the rip in the bottom and the embedded rock

is the bow on the right ?

was the ship going backwards at the time of contact ?

could this indicate an azimuthing problem ? .............. ie some sort of electrical control or power clusterfuck ?


did the drives go out of control AFTER the initial grounding ? ..... before they lost driving power ?



seems like the skipper did the best thing he could by attempting to beach the ship after the first " touch "


a sideways jump is possible ( rocky horror ) if these drives blow their mind .............................................

#64 BAR KARATE

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 02:51 AM

Don't all Italians go by feel ..... you can always tell which one they are a start line just listen for the grinding of f/glass ....

#65 SL33_SF

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 03:00 AM

AIS data:
http://www.marinetra...%208:02:00%20PM

#66 Paradise

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 03:02 AM

have another look at the rip in the bottom and the embedded rock

is the bow on the right ?

was the ship going backwards at the time of contact ?

could this indicate an azimuthing problem ? .............. ie some sort of electrical control or power clusterfuck ?


did the drives go out of control AFTER the initial grounding ? ..... before they lost driving power ?



seems like the skipper did the best thing he could by attempting to beach the ship after the first " touch "


a sideways jump is possible ( rocky horror ) if these drives blow their mind .............................................


Bow's to the left.

#67 Rail Meat

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 03:40 AM

Making 15.4 knots at contact,with no sign of any avoidance before hand although the refresh rate may not allow for that kind of granulatiry. Then they came starboard and traveled at least a little distance to the island. They may have screwed up their read of the charts, but certainly seemed to do the right thing after the collision.

#68 jhc

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:42 AM

"Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern." (alpha)

Looks to me as though there was an avoidance maneuver in progress when contact was made. All contact with the rock was port side aft of the fore and aft mid point of the ship. Indicating there was a hard turn to starboard, causing the aft, port side to contact (collect) the rock.

#69 jo forthan

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:10 AM

it had used that route last year

http://video.corrier...52-5f77182bc574



#70 yowie

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:09 AM

AIS data:
http://www.marinetra...%208:02:00%20PM

The initial course alteration occurs at a distance that might correlate with visual.
Way-point planted on the island?...

#71 dash34

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:31 AM

it had used that route last year

http://video.corrier...52-5f77182bc574


Hmmm, pretty close in, looks like a case of "let's give the passengers a nice close look at the harbour, just like we did last year." A bit too close, maybe had the GPS zoomed out a little too much, and oops.

Not funny though.

dash

#72 Bill E Goat

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:31 AM

16 minutes of no AIS position, I reckon this is what happened

Attached Files



#73 Great Red Shark

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:35 AM

If the Aegis-class guided missle frigate USS Port Royal could run agound 100 yards from the mouth of Pearl Harbor, then ANY navigational error IS entirely possible when enough disregard for margin of error is present.

#74 BAR KARATE

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:46 AM

16 minutes of no AIS position, I reckon this is what happened

Very good assessment, I'm supprised that they didn't hail that funny object and request that it move out her way .....

#75 floating dutchman

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:08 AM

16 minutes of no AIS position, I reckon this is what happened

Let's wait until we get some facts aye.

You may be right on the money but people have died, let's, just for once break SA tradition and wait for the facts.

#76 dogwatch

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:27 AM

Water temp is around 10c, which is quitle cold if all you're wearing is a tshirt.


Where do you get that?15C according to http://www.eurometeo...meteomar/id_tce

Predicted survival time - 6 hours at 15C, 2 hours at 10C http://www.answers.c...survival-at-sea Quite a difference.

#77 Tony-F18

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:46 AM


Water temp is around 10c, which is quitle cold if all you're wearing is a tshirt.


Where do you get that?15C according to http://www.eurometeo...meteomar/id_tce

You are right, 15c it is, apparently there is a place in France with the same name.

Two survivors rescued from inside the ship:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/14/world/europe/italy-cruise-deaths/index.html

#78 Amati

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:55 AM

These things are top-heavy. There was a cruise ship a few years ago that had an autopilot malfunction in the straights of Juan de Fuca that turned the ship so hard that it listed to within a few degrees of going over. An N A told me that the CG is something like a third the way up the hull from the WL on these things. Rocks do move because of earthquakes. We slid up on a rock in BC a few years ago. CTow puled us off, tied us to his boat, and then rammed us right back on the rock. "that's not supposed to be there". he said. And according to the charts it wasn't. But there it was. Is this island an active earthquake zone?

Loss of life sucks. Poseidon adventure. God help anyone disabled on that ship.

Kind of wonder if the charts had been updated with all the budget problems in Italy. Surveys cost euros.

#79 trenace

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 08:14 AM

There are a lot of earthquakes (generally but not always small) in Italy, but from some data from the US Geological Survey, this seems not to be near any centers of activity.

#80 Kent H

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 08:18 AM

I looked but could not find the basis for those times. The last time I checked was over twenty years ago and they were based on studies involving males of a rather young age. My guess (MD's who post here would have a much better opinion) is that age, medication (blood thinners) and fat percentage as well as perhaps other factors will wildly change those times.

I would suspect that some deaths deal with falling once the ship was listed at an extreme angle. I believe this is how one of the salvage crew died on that car carrier that was floating on its side off of Alaska.

I have not been aboard any of these ships that have been built in the last twenty years. But with 4000 people on board and the amount of actual trained sailors as a small percentage of the crew these ships seem to be a ripe terrorist targets or accidents waiting to happen.

I can not even imagine trying to evacuate a cruise ship. So many people who have very little ability to move themselves in anything other than normal circumstances. Try moving an overweight elderly person up an incline. Just getting the person standing up is tough enough. If they lost less than 100 ( aprox. 4 percent) we are very lucky.

#81 trenace

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 08:29 AM

A chart -- with no source provided -- appears again and again in various webpages with the same claimed figures. On the chance it might (might) originate from a valid source, its figures are below.

As you say the numbers vary widely.

Temperature F / Temperature C / Time to exhaustion or unconsciousness / Expected survival time
5060 1015.6 ... 12 hours ... 16 hours
6070 15.621.1 ... 27 hours ... 240 hours

So reading with huge margin for variation, one might give for expected survival time 2-6 hours for 60 F (15.6 C) and very slightly shorter for 59 F.

However, if reaching unconsciousness in the water with no PFD, death might occur at that point rather than what might be true if drowning were prevented. So in that case, perhaps even as little as one hour, or possibly even less for the frail.

The site that Dogwatch gives reports 50% death rate "in the order of 6 hours" at 15 C. ("On the order of" has the scientific meaning of margin of error being several or many times.)

#82 Icedtea

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:19 AM

Just read that the captain has been arrested for a number of nasties, including triple manslaughter and abandoning ship.


Cruise Ship Story

#83 Major Tom

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:23 AM


Remember the Andrea Doria? The Italian crew fought the passengers for space on the lifeboats.

A ship with an Italian crew and Italian passengers would have been a monkey house.


How about the Greek cruise ship Oceanus?

The captain was one of the first ashore while hundreds of passengers were still on the stricken vessel.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/MTS_Oceanos


There was a joke going around after this incident; What is the difference between a boat and a goat? A greek will go down on a goat!
Hat , coat etc etc

#84 mh111

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:52 AM


From the second video, it appears that the ship spent quite some time at only a moderate list (20 degrees or so) and with decks well out of the water, rather than going over at-all quickly.

So as to why anyone would be trapped below would seem a question.

Hopefully it will turn out that most or all of the unaccounted-for persons simply never were aboard, or were aboard but escaped safely and, well, just haven't been accounted for.

As for the captain being arrested, my understanding is that this has no real implication: it's just what they do there in cases at all like this.

I do have to say that it's a poor show of him to have left the ship so long as there was any rescuing to be done that he could direct or aid. What was his rush? Was starting to get hungry, and the food service staff had already vamoosed?

Looking at the photos of it on the 20 deg list looks like the power was out, No lights inside seem to be going. Only the lights that you want for using the life rafts are going and they should be able to be supplied from a deck level emergency generator.

The boat went down in hours, I actually think they did a fairly good job of getting 4000+ of in the dark.

The news reports keep metioning the "Icy waters" Does anyone know what water temps are there? Cold yes but icy?


passenger ships are designed so that they can be kept reasonably upright even with a majot hole in one side, by progressive flooding of the other side. this is critcal as passenger vessels need all the boats on BOTH sides in order to take of the passengers and crew. cargo vessels on the other hand have sufficient life boat capacity of EACH side for the full crew (obviously a lot easier for 25 instead of say 4000)

the first question i'd be asking is why the ship has gone right over in the way she has ? maybe the crew didn't hang around to manage the flooding properly ?

cheers,

#85 ILYA_Fan

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:41 PM

If they lost less than 100 ( aprox. 4 percent) we are very lucky.


I agree with this.

Over 4000 people successfully deployed to lifeboats and safely moved to shore - that's a huge achievement. An accurate count of survivors and suspected count of the missing immediately after the disaster - bravo. That is no small task.

In any emergency there are going to be some people who go to the wrong places and end up in the drink or down below. If it's only a few people or even a few dozen, that has to be expected, I would think.

There will also be survivors who complain about chaos. Yeah, your fucking ship got holed and sank! Did you expect it would be like a ride at Disneyland with an organized que, step on, sit down and step off with a happy voice over the intercom telling you what to do at every step of the way?

There's a lot of information still to come but from what I see so far, well done to the crew who got so many people successfully onto dry land.

Looks like every lifeboat on the side above water was successfully deployed.

As to why this happened, I look at it this way: thousands of these big shitters plying the waters of all corners of the planet. What could possibly go wrong, right? Some of these cattle barges are going down to Davy Jones's Locker, no matter what.

#86 vmg

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:25 PM

Hacks on the Tv news are 'astounded' that this should happen in the 21st century.

The sea is under-estimated by 90% of the population

Passengers ask for their money back when it is rough and it spoils their holiday!

#87 mo fuzz

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:37 PM

16 minutes of no AIS position, I reckon this is what happened


Maybe, at the last minute, the captain decided to draw a heart???

(sorry)

#88 Peragrin

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:48 PM

currently 3 dead, 17 missing and the rest of the 4200 are accounted for. And they are still pulling the living from the ship. So there is always hope.

#89 jo forthan

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:53 PM

http://rt.com/on-air...italian-rescue/

#90 Teachessail

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:54 PM

So darn those floating rocks eh? Difficult to avoid.

With new passengers on-board and having taken her out of port earlier that day, chances are the Captain wasn't on the Bridge and was at rest or dinner or Mix n Mingle.

Generally accidents like this happen because the Watch isn't experienced, awake or sober (the reason why if you sail in the Med you know to stay well away from commercial shipping). I doubt(hope) it wasn't the latter two on a well regulated boat like this one. Auto-pilots do fail, that's why there should be someone to "Watch" them.

Sounds like someone has made a judgement call to change course, allegedly for a better view of the island, but not confirmed their position and new course. Anyone access to a chart for the area? I've read that hazard it hit was charted and is either above the WL or dries. The hazard is apperently called Le Scole, so if it has a name then clearly everyone knows it's there (or at least the locals do). But in the Med they have a habit of not marking hazards. Why stick a light on it if all the local fishermen know where it is? Then there is the deviation between chart and GPS in the Med, in places that can be up to 2nm. The very reason why electronic nav is used an aid to navigation and not the primary nav source.

I agree with others that the Captain has assessed the extent of the damage and headed for shallow waters to beach her. If he felt the list was going to take her to the point of no return he's done exactly the right thing. She can't invert or sink any further if she's aground.

Can you imagine how bad it could have been if he hadn't and she had inverted in deeper waters?

Well spotted that in the pics she isn't lit, I hadn't noticed that.

#91 carlo

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 02:13 PM

This a link to an article in Italian. They make a quite accurate reconstruction of what happened.
My link

#92 Delta Blues

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 02:19 PM

The propellers were stll spinning when the boat rolled, do you know what sound they made?
Dago wop wop wop wop wop wop..............

#93 Tom Ray

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 03:32 PM

This a link to an article in Italian. They make a quite accurate reconstruction of what happened.
My link


Anyone want to translate? I can take a wild guess as to what this part of the link above means:

...-gravissima-negligenza-...

That doesn't sound good.

#94 trenace

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 03:39 PM

Well, in Italy they arrest, with charges, a lot sooner than we would in the US. Including big charges.

It's arrest first, investigate later, pretty much.

However, knowing that as he would have, why the captain left the ship a second earlier than he needed to, I can't imagine. Short of being hungry or not wanting to miss his favorite TV show.

However, for all we know he may have departed with the last lifeboat to leave. If so that would not have been so unreasonable, if at all unreasonable.

#95 Capt John

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:03 PM


This a link to an article in Italian. They make a quite accurate reconstruction of what happened.
My link


Anyone want to translate? I can take a wild guess as to what this part of the link above means:

...-gravissima-negligenza-...

That doesn't sound good.


(This is a Google translate)

Giglio Porto-The tragedy of the Costa Concordia is incredible for its dynamic. How can an ultra-modern cruise ship, 290 meters long and 35.5 wide with a draft of 8.2 meters, take a rock in the Tyrrhenian Sea and capsizing, killing some three dozen people and a few scattered?

The Costa Concordia, lying on her right side near Punta Gabbianara, north of Giglio Porto. In the background profile of the Argentario

Among the many unconfirmed information, assumptions, data, and reckless statements of responsible officers who leave stunned, then try to make some points. One thing certain, between Civitavecchia and Lily, but also to the Argentario there are dry that a ship of that size (114,500 tons) will hurt if you do not, mind you, FOR A DEEP AND GUILTY OF NEGLIGENCE BY ITS COMMANDER DEPARTMENT AND NAVIGATION.

We use upper case voluntarily, to remove any doubt rumors and statements. And the show with a simple navigation exercise, which the leaders of Costa Cruises, given their profession, should know very well. News (welcome) is that the commander of the evening and the first officer Francesco Schettino Ciro Ambrosio were arrested on charges of multiple manslaughter, and leaving the sinking ship.

We start from the statement of the commander of the Costa Concordia, Francesco Schettino, who TGCOM24 said:

"And 'success as we walked to the normal tourist navigation we collided with spikes of a rock that was not reported on the paper, was not there. We were 300 meters from the rocks and the spur would not be there. Me and the crew we were the last to abandon ship. "

Declaration disconcerting to a commander of a ship of that size, with the most sophisticated navigation systems and a stretch of sea known since the smaller rocks for thousands of sailors, divers, fishermen and boaters.

These are the facts based on the statements of the protagonists and the subsequent reconstruction:

At 19, the Costa Concordia from Civitavecchia with the route of Savona, the first leg of a cruise in the Mediterranean. 4,234 people on board, of which one thousand crew. The ship has a cruising speed of 21.5 knots declared. Between Civitavecchia and Giglio Porto there are 40 miles to Route 292 degrees. The ship, therefore, cover this distance in about two hours, so at 21:45, according to the time when the collision occurred reconstructions with a "rock", the ship can only be from the same parts of the lily.

The chart (Navionics iPad Europe) with the route followed by the Costa Concordia from Civitavecchia to Lily. The logical route for a vessel of that size would be passed in the middle of the channel between the Argentario and Giglio, 7 miles off well.

The route from Civitavecchia to Savona presents two options: leave the lily to the right or left, then leave the Elbe to the right, head left and go towards Corso Savona. In this case, the Costa Concordia decided to leave the lily on the left, logical and convenient choice as it is the shortest route. The stretch of sea between the Giglio and Argentario is 7.9 miles wide (from the Head of a Man at Giglio Porto), so cruise ships can pass safely.

Once you leave Giannutri left (island that has a powerful lighthouse on the south, and still has not dried out of the depth range of 20 meters), the stretch of sea DRY DOES NOT HAVE ANY HAZARDOUS except:

Middle Shoal Channel: is 3 miles from Punta Ciana Argentario 245 , but a hat to -24 meters, which is not dangerous for a vessel that fishes 8.2 meters declared.

Dry Red Island: a few meters from the coast of the islet of the same name Argentario, impossible for a ship to go from there.

Coral reef: rock outcropping seeds, to 0.18 miles from the entrance of Cala Piccola Argentario. Dangerous, but completely out of any logical route for a ship like this direct to Savona.

Argentarola island: it is 0.7 miles from 200 to the south of Cala Grande Argentario. Clearly visible, known and still off course.

The Ants of Grosseto is located 12 miles north of Giglio Porto, they can not get into this story.

None of these shoals may have affected the Costa Concordia, worth serious negligence.



It remains, therefore, the coast of the island of Giglio.

The ship has a huge gash along a hundred feet, which got stuck between the plates is also a piece of rock, on its left side, about half of draft (we are about 4 / 5 meters). This means, no doubt, that the ship has hit the rock as it was sailing to the north, then left with Lily. The vessel, once sunk, is now lying behind Punta Gabbianara, just north of Giglio Porto, with its bow pointing south. This highlights the maneuver that the crew would attempt to bring the ship as close as possible to the ground.

The area between the Scole, and Punta Giglio Porto Gabbianara (Navionics Europe): in red the point of probable collision with the rock (with the bow facing north), in blue the point where the wreck of the Costa Concordia (with the bow facing south)

The coast of Giglio from its southern tip (the Punta Capel Rosso) to the southern tip of Cala Cannelle no danger whatsoever. There are a couple of famous dive areas on terraces that descend about 10 meters then with walls up to 55/60. But none of these can be on a route of a ship must leave the island on the left.

Only obstacle may be the rocks of Scole, located 0.5 miles from red light to 129 of Giglio Porto. These two rocks more than a minor, which extend 0.16 miles from the coast of Giglio towards 106 . The 0.16 miles of which we speak include the depth range of 10 meters, well signposted from the cards. 0.16 miles is equivalent to 296 meters, so close, unfortunately, very close to the declaration of the commander: "We were 300 meters from the rocks ...." What rocks? The coast of Giglio or down? But we're kidding?

The detail of the rocks of the Scole (Navionics Europe). In the red area of ​​the probable point of impact. As you can see we are on the depth range of 10 meters, 300 meters from the coast of Giglio

Any browser with common sense knows that a ship 290 feet long, of 114,500 tons and draft of 8 feet, can not really pass in a depth range of 10 meters, or in a depth of ten meters. The depth range of 50 meters is at that point 0.2 miles (370 meters) from the coast. The 100 meters, which is safer for a ship of its kind, is located 0.3 miles (555 meters) from the coast. It was still too close to a channel like 7 miles wide between the Argentario and Giglio.

The hole in the hull of the ship caused by the impact

After the collision the ship was tilted on its starboard side and began to ship water. The commander, according to the reconstructions, after passing Giglio Porto, led her to make un'accostata left 180 degrees (so to "reverse course") and then reach behind Punta Gabbianara, where it is tilted on the right flank, to run aground in a depth of 12/15 meters, where he is now lying and submerged for a good half.

Punta Gabbianara is 0.7 miles to 324 from the hypothetical point of impact. So the reconstruction of temporal events seems unlikely, with the witnesses Gigliesi and those on board who spoke of 22:30 as the time when the ship stopped in place of the shipwreck.

Google Earth Pro Picture of Giglio Porto, with the Scole sgli rocks to the south and north of Punta Gabbianara

Disconcerting, to say the least, also the statements of Costa Cruises: "It is incorrect to say that the ship was off course," said the CEO of Costa Crociere President Gianni Onorato, "It 'was an unforeseeable event compounded by unpredictable inclination of the ship. The ship was traveling from Civitavecchia, Savona, like 52 times a year. He bumped against a rock, and following this event, the commander has assessed the damage early, decided to secure the ship and gave the evacuation order. Only the technical analysis will tell us what happened. I think it is right that the authority competent to do this type of analysis. We can only help. The ship is sophisticated systems to track routes, both to understand what happened, thanks to systems that are more than just a black box. "

The video of the Guardia di Finanza:

Conclusion

As for the victims, whose family goes our solidarity, to disperse, the wounded, rescue procedures, to where he was the master, when he left the ship, this is not the place to talk about it. There is enough support once again, and we believe we have demonstrated with simple navigation calculations, that in that part of the sea cliff that no one can take a ship like that, except for an error, even worse, to culpable negligence is not tolerated by the uffciali in command and a shipping company. The rocks of Scole, including dry when thousands of divers have plunged in recent years, there have always been and everyone knows it. A vessel of 290 meters from there can not and must not pass. The arrest ordered by the prosecution of Grosseto should certainly only the first step of a story, we repeat, absolutely baffling to anyone going to sea.
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#96 Beer Can

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:07 PM

The propellers were stll spinning when the boat rolled, do you know what sound they made?
Dago wop wop wop wop wop wop..............


Fuck off.

#97 dogger

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:23 PM

These things are top-heavy. There was a cruise ship a few years ago that had an autopilot malfunction in the straights of Juan de Fuca that turned the ship so hard that it listed to within a few degrees of going over. An N A told me that the CG is something like a third the way up the hull from the WL on these things. Rocks do move because of earthquakes. We slid up on a rock in BC a few years ago. CTow puled us off, tied us to his boat, and then rammed us right back on the rock. "that's not supposed to be there". he said. And according to the charts it wasn't. But there it was. Is this island an active earthquake zone?

Loss of life sucks. Poseidon adventure. God help anyone disabled on that ship.

Kind of wonder if the charts had been updated with all the budget problems in Italy. Surveys cost euros.

"Uncharted rock takes out mammoth cruise ship"

Is there an echo in here?

#98 akaGP

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:47 PM

Joseph Conrad's reflections on the sinking of the Titanic:

http://www.online-li...and-letters/23/

Not a lot has changed in the "bigger must be better" department.

Cheers,

Earl


Speaking for all the Conrad aficionados who were not aware of that particular work, I thank you.

#99 Slow Ed

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:58 PM

https://plus.google....479271862536705

Lots of pics

#100 coyotepup

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:28 PM



This a link to an article in Italian. They make a quite accurate reconstruction of what happened.
My link


Anyone want to translate? I can take a wild guess as to what this part of the link above means:

...-gravissima-negligenza-...

That doesn't sound good.


(This is a Google translate)

Giglio Porto-The tragedy of the Costa Concordia is incredible for its dynamic. How can an ultra-modern cruise ship, 290 meters long and 35.5 wide with a draft of 8.2 meters, take a rock in the Tyrrhenian Sea and capsizing, killing some three dozen people and a few scattered?

...........

As for the victims, whose family goes our solidarity, to disperse, the wounded, rescue procedures, to where he was the master, when he left the ship, this is not the place to talk about it. There is enough support once again, and we believe we have demonstrated with simple navigation calculations, that in that part of the sea cliff that no one can take a ship like that, except for an error, even worse, to culpable negligence is not tolerated by the uffciali in command and a shipping company. The rocks of Scole, including dry when thousands of divers have plunged in recent years, there have always been and everyone knows it. A vessel of 290 meters from there can not and must not pass. The arrest ordered by the prosecution of Grosseto should certainly only the first step of a story, we repeat, absolutely baffling to anyone going to sea.
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Google Translate always churns out some awful-ass pidgin English, so I can't be sure I got the whole thing right. And I don't mean the following to exonerate the captain. But....

....the logic in the article reads like it boils down to the following:

Captain: "We hit an uncharted rock."

Newspaper: "We examined the charts and there were no rocks, so he must be negligent and/or lying."

Huh???

At any rate, obviously the story is written by someone who NEVER goes to sea, because I don't think anyone who DOES go to sea, especially on a big ship like that, is ever "baffled" that there would occasionally be a wreck like this.




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