222 replies to this topic

[jim lee]

This all started as a wish list thread in the sport boat Anarchy forum. "Have my cake and eat it too". Someone was going on about wanting a boat that was pretty much a perfect fit for the Dart. So I, being the builder of Darts, offered him a screaming deal on one. In fact, I offered it to everyone. And, when no one bit, I decided to Drop the price $1,000 a day until someone did.

Here's the link to the deal with pix of the boat we're selling off.



This is the actual boat. The red stripe was removed and the trailer has been upgraded to the custom Aluminum/Composite one.

Have fun!

-jim lee

[U20guy2]

Geeze Jim!

If we didn't have the big fat Ericson 28 sitting unused right now and the finance world being told how to pay its top earners by the all knowing GOV I'd be talking to the wife about making a trip north to go talk with you.

Don't even get me started on the whole GOV telling the finance business how to operate. There is a mass exit happening right now with the top financial minds moving to High Tech given they will have better work conditions - better pay and almost all of them who are truly very VERY good at what they did are engineers by training. If these people can make more working for Cisco than spending 2+weeks a month on the road busting ass tracking an industry comparing product line ups and sorting out where the best place to put billions of dollars of institutional fund money via stocks etc - I can't wait to see what happens to the boating world and other industries which thrive on people who make piles of money from the ability to know where the money should go to start with. LOL

However maybe the Tech industry will see some new mind blowing technology in the next few years due to these people shifting focus?

Good luck! And I hope you guys keep the lights on we still need boat builders in the US.

[PurpleOnion]

umm. My experience has been that the finance guys have done more to destroy the tech industry than they've done to help it. If they could keep their hands off after investing things would go a lot more smoothly. Hearing that financial "talent" will be infesting the industry directly is very frightening.

[Great Red Shark]

Ah, a Gambler's sale. Used to do one at the outfitters I worked at; 30% off everything, additional 5% everyday ater that for a week, present inventory only.

Buy the pack you wanted or wait another day for more savings and risk having it bought out from under you ??

Those guys knew how to have fun, like the January underwear sale - 50% off to anyone walking in the door in their underwear...

[trenace]

Syms -- a clothing store -- used to be famous for a similar pricing strategy, but based on weeks rather than days. They explained exactly how they did it, and their tag line was "An educated consumer is our best customer."

So it was your choice whether you wanted to wait to save money, both at the cost of not having it now and risking not being able to get it later. It did very well for them.

Someone is going to get a great boat at a great price with Jim's sale!

[hard aground]

Sucks I'm about a year and a bit from being ready to bid.

[dogger]

Geeze Jim!

If we didn't have the big fat Ericson 28 sitting unused right now and the finance world being told how to pay its top earners by the all knowing GOV I'd be talking to the wife about making a trip north to go talk with you.

Don't even get me started on the whole GOV telling the finance business how to operate. There is a mass exit happening right now with the top financial minds moving to High Tech given they will have better work conditions - better pay and almost all of them who are truly very VERY good at what they did are engineers by training. If these people can make more working for Cisco than spending 2+weeks a month on the road busting ass tracking an industry comparing product line ups and sorting out where the best place to put billions of dollars of institutional fund money via stocks etc - I can't wait to see what happens to the boating world and other industries which thrive on people who make piles of money from the ability to know where the money should go to start with. LOL

However maybe the Tech industry will see some new mind blowing technology in the next few years due to these people shifting focus?

Good luck! And I hope you guys keep the lights on we still need boat builders in the US.

Hug a rat- hire a stock broker.

[U20guy2]

umm. My experience has been that the finance guys have done more to destroy the tech industry than they've done to help it. If they could keep their hands off after investing things would go a lot more smoothly. Hearing that financial "talent" will be infesting the industry directly is very frightening.

Spoken like a true idiot. My wife's boss happens to hold the patent and design on the first Modem - he created it - now he makes a living cutting through the BS in the Finance world pointing out who has the real deal and best positioning in an industry so your funds managers can make decisions on where to put money -- based on good data and info vs BS marketing. LOL

There are plenty of finance turkeys working the system and there are far far more amazingly smart and talented people who follow the money and use their skills to manage money. No crime in that.

The GOV is requiring pay vs profit levels which the Tech industry doesn't even follow so any guess what industries are next for limited pay per the GOV which can't Fing create a budget let alone balance one?

[Snapper]

This is an awesome boat. Someone is going to get a great deal on it! Really fun boat to sail.

Attached Files

•  002 Windermere 2011 (7).JPG   39.84K   234 downloads
•  IMG00122-20110610-1531.jpg   403.58K   234 downloads

[U20guy2]

No doubt! Perfect size for hitting away locations - tame enough for the whole family to really have fun with quick enough to race and do well. We need more boats like this in the US Sadly the economy issues and Jim's timing just do not match up well.

[GybeSet®]

this is the actual boat that, although wet only a couple handful of times, won ALL its race series then ?

phrf killer ?

This is an awesome boat. Someone is going to get a great deal on it! Really fun boat to sail.

[jackdaw]

this is the actual boat that, although wet only a couple handful of times, won ALL its race series then ?

phrf killer ?

I'm going with ROCK STARS.

But that does not mean that the Dart is not awesome.

[Pointy End]

Damn...I wanted a red stripe on mine!!

[PurpleOnion]

umm. My experience has been that the finance guys have done more to destroy the tech industry than they've done to help it. If they could keep their hands off after investing things would go a lot more smoothly. Hearing that financial "talent" will be infesting the industry directly is very frightening.

Spoken like a true idiot. My wife's boss happens to hold the patent and design on the first Modem - he created it - now he makes a living cutting through the BS in the Finance world pointing out who has the real deal and best positioning in an industry so your funds managers can make decisions on where to put money -- based on good data and info vs BS marketing. LOL

There are plenty of finance turkeys working the system

I'd be more inclined to believe your assessment of my mental capacity if you didn't prove my point in your response.

Regarding the government attempting to mess with compensation plans we are in agreement. The height of hypocrisy is a group that votes for their own pay raises attempting to control the compensation of people running an industry that the would-be controllers are far too stupid to ever understand.

[Ajax]

No doubt! Perfect size for hitting away locations - tame enough for the whole family to really have fun with quick enough to race and do well. We need more boats like this in the US Sadly the economy issues and Jim's timing just do not match up well.

The economy seems to be poised to turn a corner (fingers crossed). Hang in there, Jim!

[Steam Flyer]

...

Regarding the government attempting to mess with compensation plans we are in agreement. The height of hypocrisy is a group that votes for their own pay raises attempting to control the compensation of people running an industry that the would-be controllers are far too stupid to ever understand.

Yep

I thought we had a fairly recent and vivid demonstration of the failure of centrally-planned economy

oh wait, to some people the 1990s is ancient history, never mind


FB- Doug

[Snapper]

How 'bout letting this thread stick to the original subject. Take your political BS to PA!

Attached Files

•  003 Windermere 2011.JPG   34.96K   128 downloads
•  002 Windermere 2011 (6).JPG   51.21K   125 downloads

[F-18 5150]

58 more days and I can bid

[TimFordi550#87]

How 'bout letting this thread stick to the original subject. Take your political BS to PA!

+ 1,000

cool boat, Jim! ....if I weren't building this plywood thingie...

[jim lee]

$63,000

-jim lee

[GybeSet®]

Here's the link to the deal with pix of the boat we're selling off.

[trenace]

And, that's delivered (in the lower 48.)

[Merit 25]

I'm buying a lottery ticket on the way home.

[DA-WOODY]

Here's the link to the deal with pix of the boat we're selling off.

I will take it

consider it SOLD

but I don't need it till JULY 4th weekend

will I still have to come up with any money ???

(I can pick it up just this side of the US fence / TJ)

[jim lee]

$62,000

-jim lee

[Steam Flyer]

How 'bout letting this thread stick to the original subject. Take your political BS to PA!

I apologize, sorry to butt in on a serious thread

the Dart looks like a very cool boat

&

I wish Jim much success with it.

FB- Doug

[trenace]

Jim, with this sale plan, has gone out on a highwire with no net and high winds.

He has a great boat, but it is not a commodity item and therefore time usually is needed to find the right buyer. But he has set up extreme time pressure with this $1000/day price drop.

(Now $62K, delivered.)

As Jim seems to be a genuinely good guy, it would be a nice thing to advise every friend possible on this opportunity, both so your friend can get a fine deal, and Jim doesn't have to take too painful a price or have to cancel and cast a bit of shadow on the sellability of his boat.

Put out the word!

[craigiri]

Jim, with this scheme, has gone out on a highwire with no net and high winds.

He has a great boat, but it is not a commodity item and therefore time usually is needed to find the right buyer. But he has set up extreme time pressure with this $1000/day price drop.

He's that type of guy........to build the thing in the first place....

But, seriously, the true price of many things is what they can be sold for in reasonable amount of time - IMHO, that's usually 30-60 days. The internet is pretty damn good at getting the word out - with Facebook and SA, etc.....

One has to work with the universe of buyers they have......

It would seem with all those folks talking about the new J sporty, that ONE of them will buy this at a certain price point. Heck, there is a price I'd probably buy it for, but it's lower than what some other SA member is likely to pay!


Speaking of such auctions, I know a guy who got the wrong idea about these auctions and sold a condo based on the exactly opposite of this. That is, he started the price ridiculously low and said he was gonna raise it $10,000 a week until it sold.
Of course, it sold at the ridiculously low price......which was way below cost and way below what it was worth! Stupid is as Stupid does!

[jim lee]

You know, it would be great to have a posting of this over at sailnet. Lots of people there. But, if I were to post it in there general forum I'd probably get lynched. Seeing that I'm the builder/Seller and all..

-jim lee

[jackdaw]

You know, it would be great to have a posting of this over at sailnet. Lots of people there. But, if I were to post it in there general forum I'd probably get lynched. Seeing that I'm the builder/Seller and all..

-jim lee

I'll drop it in casually at sailboatowners.com .....

[Merit 25]

I can't post over on sailnet during work, but I'll try to remember to do it when I get home.

Do you have any photos or videos of the boat in breeze?

[lafish]

I drove up to see the boat in person yesterday and it's absolutely beautiful. It's what every racer with a family would wish for given a clean sheet of paper and a skilled architect. If I hadn't bought a boat last year, I'd be taking out the checkbook. Someone is going to get a great deal.

[Silverbullet]

Heading to the casino tonight. If all goes well, I'll save you the gas money and be by to pick her up Saturday!

[Code 2]

After having to deal with a desperate need for cash and selling my boat for nearly nothing - this auction is painful to watch.

Sure wish I had seen a few of those bales floating off MDR - that would have helped.

I wish you the best Jim.

Cool boat.

[Damaged Goods]

44 days and counting...

[dogger]

The Dart is a very cool boat and if time is my friend I may have the pleasure of owning one. We sail agianst the B-25 often and the price point between the two is a bit difficult to swallow for our current rating band. Does anyone here have any real time observations if this boat can sail to a 117 rating here in the PNW?

Jim, how is the progress on hull #3 and are there plans to produce numbers that will make a one design fleet possible? What does hull #2 weigh in at and will there be provisions for a retractable pole so it will fit in my 30' slip?

[jim lee]

Well, Here's the 2011 PITCH results Line 1 is the boat in question. 2011 PITCH results

Here's the 2011 Windermere results see fleet 4 Windermere results

So, Snapper can make it sail to 117.

I believe Jim Betts weighed this boat fully loaded for bear and all the comfort options at 2,400 lbs.

As for Hull #3. Its currently a bunch of small parts on the shelves, bulkheads, liner, keel skins etc. A case of corecell core, and a couple rolls of fiberglass for a hull & deck. We are completely tooled up for producing these things. We've had little better to do that work on our "game" for building Darts, so that's what we've done. We're all dyin' to see the factory actually work and pump out boats, if we could only find people to pay for 'em.

THe sprit on the boat now does unbolt. I wouldn't hold my breath for a retractable sprit. Coming up with a slick retractable sprit would entail a large engineering process. As you can see, the only paying customer the company has is me. And I'm completely happy with the sprit as it is.

-jim lee

[dogger]

Well, Here's the 2011 PITCH results Line 1 is the boat in question. 2011 PITCH results

Here's the 2011 Windermere results see fleet 4 Windermere results

So, Snapper can make it sail to 117.

I believe Jim Betts weighed this boat fully loaded for bear and all the comfort options at 2,400 lbs.

As for Hull #3. Its currently a bunch of small parts on the shelves, bulkheads, liner, keel skins etc. A case of corecell core, and a couple rolls of fiberglass for a hull & deck. We are completely tooled up for producing these things. We've had little better to do that work on our "game" for building Darts, so that's what we've done. We're all dyin' to see the factory actually work and pump out boats, if we could only find people to pay for 'em.

THe sprit on the boat now does unbolt. I wouldn't hold my breath for a retractable sprit. Coming up with a slick retractable sprit would entail a large engineering process. As you can see, the only paying customer the company has is me. And I'm completely happy with the sprit as it is.

-jim lee

I guess the results speak loudly as to the Dart's performance!
Please forgive my ignorance, what is the rating of the symmetrical version?

[jim lee]

$61,000

-jim lee

[jim lee]

Sad.. replying to my own posts now..

Today's price, super bowl special, delivered to your doorstep - $60,000!

408-340-0352

-jim lee

[Savage 17]

Jim,

It is a very cool boat..... tough economy and very tough market to break into when tons of used boat are in this market for half the price..... Hell a used Farr 30 is $47,000....... I'm just saying it is hard to get the first couple out the door, but once they start doing well sales should be easier.

[Savage 17]

You should try to go to the major regattas to generate some "Buzz" and then sell the boat as a demo boat...... Key West.....Noods.... so on etc....

[jibeset]

Boat is very well layed out and fast. Can easily sail to the 117 rating. Good Luck Jim in selling the boat. I enjoy watching it on the race course.

[jim lee]

$59,000 - To your door

408-340-0352

-jim lee

[PurpleOnion]

along with many other onlookers, I wish I had the cash to make this happen.
Beautiful boat at a great price. Unfortunately, the cash just isn't available at the moment.

[Pog]

I wish I had the coin, it looks like it is the perfect boat.

Is there anyway you would want to trade it for a completely restored fiberglass T-bird, with trailer????

[By the lee]

1000lbs lighter than my old sj24 w/100sq ft more sail

whats the sa/dsp ?

[PurpleOnion]

1000lbs lighter than my old sj24 w/100sq ft more sail

whats the sa/dsp ?

Using the specs on the site and the US Sailing calculator at: http://www.sailingus...__sad_ratio.htm
I get 31.97

[bulbouskeel]

$59,000 - To your door

408-340-0352

-jim lee

That's still a small fortune for a 26' boat. Heck, that sum would get you the most finely-honed J80 in the universe -- and it would have a lot better resale value I reckon. Heck, you could even buy two or three very nicely turned-out J24s. Not that you don't have a great looking boat, but $59K just seems insane. Not at all trying to insult; just trying to keep it real.

[trenace]

Alert the press! This is headline stuff.

Or the psychologists, as this is insane.

Someone is pricing a new boat (and delivered, at that) higher than used boats!

[bljones]

Jim,
From a consumer's prospective, sell the boats all in, with cushions and trim included, or instead of offering upgrade pricing, offer a delete option. I see prices like $3400 for cushions and $690 for cherry sole, with no description of why it's worth what it is worth, I question the value of the rest of the boat... but if I see that i can buy the boat for x, or x minus $4100 if i want to strip her down, it changes my thinking.

[jim lee]

$58,000 all in - delivered.

-jim lee

[craigiri]

$59,000 - To your door

408-340-0352

-jim lee

That's still a small fortune for a 26' boat. Heck, that sum would get you the most finely-honed J80 in the universe -- and it would have a lot better resale value I reckon. Heck, you could even buy two or three very nicely turned-out J24s. Not that you don't have a great looking boat, but $59K just seems insane. Not at all trying to insult; just trying to keep it real.

I hear you - but I think we always have to keep in mind what the stock market is doing, housing values, etc.

That is, if people are feeling really flush, they go for the extra bucks because they feel as if they "made" them on paper or otherwise.

As it stands today, many investors are pleased that things are almost looking back to what they were 5 years ago......

But I have to somewhat agree. It seems there is a magic price point at under 50 delivered.....I was thinking about this yesterday in regards to the (rumored) demand for the new Farrier. On one hand we have the Farr design here at 50K and this beautiful boats at not much higher - both longing for buyers, and then on the other hand (if we believe that folks will follow through) dozens, if not hundreds, of new F-22's would likely move at <50K.

(I can't help it - I'm a marketing guy!).

I still am making the call that it goes for 48-50K.....that means next week!

[trenace]

Agreed on the price point factor: not in any way referring to the value of Jim's actual boat, but only talking about price points.

I do think that being $49-something has a lot more sales potential than being in the fifties, and that far more than sixties.

Again not in reference to Jim's boat, but for example Brian Bennett says he worked from the direction of knowing what price he needed and then engineering the best-for-purpose boat he could to meet that price.

But this does not help after having already decided what one finds right for the intended purpose, and as it happens the resulting price doesn't fit particular price barrier points! It's kind of spilt milk.

Jim would have had to build much less -- much less -- of a boat to have it retail priced at $49K ready to sail, with trailer, delivered. I just don't see how that could have been except with much less of a boat.

[TimFordi550#87]

We should start a pool!

Send me $25 and the date upon which you think the Dart will sell. If you pick the correct day, I'll send you a check for $50! Double your money back!!!

(Hey, it works for me.)

Oh crap, it's illegal in MD...nevermind.

[edit] FWIW, I'll say Sunday Feb 19th. Jim, I hope it's much earlier than that! Great deal for the trailor and all the gear/upgrades included in your offer.

[Joli]

Let's just hope Jim doesn't have to pay to move the boat.

[bulbouskeel]

Alert the press! This is headline stuff.

Or the psychologists, as this is insane.

Someone is pricing a new boat (and delivered, at that) higher than used boats!

Easy there, chief.

[svgreatwhite]

$58,000 all in - delivered.

-jim lee

I would trade you my J35. But wait! You already have a J35 so what would you need another one for?

[jim lee]

Build a J/35 cat?

-jim lee

[GybeSet®]

Agreed on the price point factor: not in any way referring to the value BLA of Jim's actual boat, but only talking about price points.
BLA
I do think that being $49-something has a lot more sales potential than being in the fifties, and that far more than sixties.

Again not in reference to Jim's boat, but for example Brian Bennett says he worked from the direction of knowing what price he needed and then engineering the best-for-purpose boat he could to meet that price.
BLA
But this does not help after having already decided what one finds right for the intended purpose, and as it happens the resulting price doesn't fit particular price barrier points! It's kind of spBLA ilt milk.

Jim would have had to build much leBLA ss -- much less -- of a boat to have it retail priced at $49K ready to sail, with trailer, delivered. I just don't see how that could have been except with much less of a boat.

THREADJACK
no different to your design analysis, a total OFF-TOPIC totally disregards any thought that it will actually be sailing, and doing what its meant to do

this is the dna footprint of a Keyboard Sailor, in Florida, in a dark room


this is a great sailing boat, and JIM wants it sold

[bulbouskeel]

Agreed on the price point factor: not in any way referring to the value BLA of Jim's actual boat, but only talking about price points.
BLA
I do think that being $49-something has a lot more sales potential than being in the fifties, and that far more than sixties.

Again not in reference to Jim's boat, but for example Brian Bennett says he worked from the direction of knowing what price he needed and then engineering the best-for-purpose boat he could to meet that price.
BLA
But this does not help after having already decided what one finds right for the intended purpose, and as it happens the resulting price doesn't fit particular price barrier points! It's kind of spBLA ilt milk.

Jim would have had to build much leBLA ss -- much less -- of a boat to have it retail priced at $49K ready to sail, with trailer, delivered. I just don't see how that could have been except with much less of a boat.

THREADJACK
no different to your design analysis, a total OFF-TOPIC totally disregards any thought that it will actually be sailing, and doing what its meant to do

this is the dna footprint of a Keyboard Sailor, in Florida, in a dark room


this is a great sailing boat, and JIM wants it sold

Is this now the Classifieds section or something? Why this dross?

[trenace]

Gybeset is a rather sad psychological case. You are seeing one of his obsessions and triggers in play. It has nothing to do with Jim's thread, or anything of any factual or relevant nature at all, but only his personal inadequacies and issues. How he thinks it could be of interest to anyone, I can't imagine.

"Dross" isn't the word I'd use for the worthlessness of his post you quote. Certainly it's useless to anyone. But I suppose the word is as good as any.

Now if only the Ignored Users function could take care of attribution as well as original posts, I would have saved 60 seconds.

[craigiri]

And here I thought all this BSing was good because the thread keeps getting bumped and it might help it sell sooner......

silly me!

Heck, this is better than TV...what was that show? With the numbered suitcases?
deal or no deal

[Mambo Kings]

At a $1000 a day, this should be on the front page.

damn its fun. Its going to get exciting soon with everyone pretending they are not interested to keep others at bay, but ready to hit the button.



Clean......put this on front page.

And here I thought all this BSing was good because the thread keeps getting bumped and it might help it sell sooner......

silly me!

Heck, this is better than TV...what was that show? With the numbered suitcases?
deal or no deal

[jim lee]

Port Townsend Sailing Association was nice enough to post an article about the Auction. Even came by the shop, interviewed me and looked the boat over.

Pretty Slick!

The article

-jim lee

[F-18 5150]

Three pages and no-one has yelled buy an add? Is that a new record?

[craigiri]

Three pages and no-one has yelled buy an add? Is that a new record?

Heck, this is bringing more people to SA for longer times - that equals a lot more money than an ad......

[teener]

Buy an ad and put a link to this thread to shut up the haters.

[F-18 5150]

Can I place a bid for March 16th?

[MR.CLEAN]

Three pages and no-one has yelled buy an add? Is that a new record?

Heck, this is bringing more people to SA for longer times - that equals a lot more money than an ad......

Yeah, those 3,000 thread views have earned us a bloody fortune!

it's certainly interesting, and I'm reading.

[dolphinmaster]

Three pages and no-one has yelled buy an add? Is that a new record?

Heck, this is bringing more people to SA for longer times - that equals a lot more money than an ad......

Yeah, those 3,000 thread views have earned us a bloody fortune!

it's certainly interesting, and I'm reading.

I'd be willing to bet one of those 3000 becomes the buyer. For a 100% non-essential item, ( except in our heads or hearts, depends on how deeply we are afflicted by our love to sail), at 1/2 100k price point,

that my friends is an awesome metric right there.

Of course now that the Port Townsend readers are in on it, my fancy metric observation is probably now squashed.

Good luck Jim

[J24_guy]

Looks like a nice boat, but that sprit looks way, WAY too short. How will it sail decent downwind angles without some room for the chute to breathe?

And I assume the auction winner doesn't get the carbon rig that they have designed. Is said rig going on future Left Coast Darts?

Also wondering what this is doing in a thread. If everyone who has a boat for sale did this, SA would be overrun with auctions. That's what eBay is for.

[trenace]

I would guess it's in a thread -- while sales in general are not -- because the boat and its development have been a long time SA story, and it was correctly guessed to be interesting to many. Jim is also a regular for reasons unrelated to his boat.

[jim lee]

$57,000

At this price you have saved enough to buy yourself.. Not one but TWO carbon rigs. or one good one from Hall Spars.

Sheesh! Talk about wanting cake and eating it..

-jim lee

[jim lee]

Hey! We made SA front page! How cool! Thank you.

-jim lee

[J24_guy]

$57,000

At this price you have saved enough to buy yourself.. Not one but TWO carbon rigs. or one good one from Hall Spars.

Sheesh! Talk about wanting cake and eating it..

-jim lee

No, no, I wasn't wishing to have cake and eat it too. My point was simply that if in subsequent boats you are going to use a carbon rig, this aluminum setup would be grossly outdated from the word go. I mean, look at the early Viper guys. Upgrading such a bit item pretty much sucks!

Anyhow, yours is such a nice boat, with just the right level of fitment. I guess I respectfully would agree with one of the prior posters that resale value may be a serious problem. I suppose that doesn't matter if the buyer purchases the boat with a view to keeping it for a really long time. In that case, resale value isn't an issue. One-offs and few-offs seem to have tremendous difficulty when it comes to resale. For example, one of my favorite boats is the Carrerra 290 -- it's sort of a Melges 24 crossed with a J80, and in my view retains the best attributes of each. They only made a handful of them, in the mid/late 90s. While they are sweet boats with achievable PHRF ratings, you cannot give those things away.

Even big OD classes are having problems value-wise (heck, J24s -- even really great ones -- are selling sluggishly and for low prices, which is surprising given that the Worlds is basically open this year). But the one-off boats are another order of magnitude in terms of difficulty there, in my experience.

None of this takes away from the fact that you've got a great design. Love the boat. Just wish (i) the sprit was a lot longer, and (ii) the class name and sail logo were a little more conventional.

[Mambo Kings]

Anyhow, yours is such a nice boat, with just the right level of fitment. I guess I respectfully would agree with one of the prior posters that resale value may be a serious problem. I suppose that doesn't matter if the buyer purchases the boat with a view to keeping it for a really long time. In that case, resale value isn't an issue. One-offs and few-offs seem to have tremendous difficulty when it comes to resale. For example, one of my favorite boats is the Carrerra 290 -- it's sort of a Melges 24 crossed with a J80, and in my view retains the best attributes of each. They only made a handful of them, in the mid/late 90s. While they are sweet boats with achievable PHRF ratings, you cannot give those things away.

Even big OD classes are having problems value-wise (heck, J24s -- even really great ones -- are selling sluggishly and for low prices, which is surprising given that the Worlds is basically open this year). But the one-off boats are another order of magnitude in terms of difficulty there, in my experience.

None of this takes away from the fact that you've got a great design. Love the boat. Just wish (i) the sprit was a lot longer, and (ii) the class name and sail logo were a little more conventional.

The sprit, the logo and the name have all been discussed at length in the original threads about the dart in SB anarchy. They are worth reading. It was all very well thought out.

The level of detail in this boat and the open discussion that the designer/builder participated in, impressed even the most hardened and skeptical members of the Sport boat anarchy tribe. We've grown kinda fond of Jim.

As regard its sailing ability, anarchist Snapper sailed on it , and gave very positive feedback and he is hard to impress.

I can't imagine why J24s are selling sluggishly.

[Choose a username]

I have been following all of the Dart threads for a while now. It appears to be a beautiful boat and fits into a market that really doesn't have a lot of competition. It seems that price is an issue as well as a lack of people knowing that it even exists.

With #2 being auctioned in this manner, does this not set a precedent for future boats? Won't new buyers see what #2 is eventually sold for and want the same price? There has been some discussion relating to Jim being in trouble and needs to sell which doesn't appear to be the case as on the Dart web site he states "it has been living in the shop and in our way for starting #3."

Why start #3 when you are having so much difficulty selling the one you have? Just curious.

Oh yeah, the obligatory picture is below:

Attached Files

•  img-6675.jpg   93.3K   121 downloads

[trenace]

I think people can understand that sale of boat #2 doesn't set a binding value or even much of an indicator on the market value of new boats, particularly where the later boats are configured with the carbon rig.

It could set an expectation though on resale value if thinking one might want to turn the boat around quickly -- keeping it only a year or two then selling. It's a boat for someone who wants it for a while, which would be very very easy to do in this case!

As you are saying, in general when boats are rare, resale value takes a real hit. So if the selling price proves low on this one, that may not change people's expectation on resale value either.

[Amati]

This is why economics is called the dismal science.

It's a neat boat, Jim. I have a 40 footer, very similar, that I tried to sell last year. See avatar. The dearth of offers as I steadily dropped the price was jaw dropping. I sincerely wish you massive amounts of luck selling a very nice boat.

Kudos to to your approach- I didn't have the stones for it.

This economy sucks. Hope it gets better soon.

Paul

[Mojo Risin]

I think people can understand that sale of boat #2 doesn't set a binding value or even much of an indicator on the market value of new boats, particularly where the later boats are configured with the carbon rig.

It could set an expectation though on resale value if thinking one might want to turn the boat around quickly -- keeping it only a year or two then selling. It's a boat for someone who wants it for a while, which would be very very easy to do in this case!

As you are saying, in general when boats are rare, resale value takes a real hit. So if the selling price proves low on this one, that may not change people's expectation on resale value either.

Yes it does. As I learned when I sold my Rocket.

[jim lee]

I'm getting calls for specific questions mostly for local PHRF ratings. Not being one to remember names or numbers, I linked a copy of the boat's current NW PHRF certificate to the auction page. Hopefully this'll make things easier for people.

Here's the link Fresh link to Dart auction page.

Here's a teaser pic,


This is wildangels racing #1 on a wed night beer can race. She used to go head to head with Snapper every wed night when he was getting #2 into fighting trim. It was a lot of fun!

-jim lee

[Sinnettc]

Someone asked (back on page 2 I think) for video. Jim took me for a sail in Dart #1 in October (actually I did all the sailing) in light to moderate conditions. The boat was a dream to sail. Here's a video I made that day:



Hope she sells soon, Jim.

[Merit 25]

Jim, that link isn't working for me.

Also, I'd still like to see some pictures or video of the boat in real breeze with crew.

[jim lee]

$56,000

-jim lee

[mat50039]

Hey Jim the Dart would be perfect over here but I'm in Abu Dhabi seems delivery would be tough. ! See the wifes blog for details. Wildcardtravels.blogspot.com
Yer SPYC buddy Mark

[jim lee]

MARK?!?! WHAT THE HELL!

Had no idea you were still kickin' out there. So you guys are out livin' in some foreign desert. What a hoot!

-jim lee

[mat50039]

Yep

[jim lee]

2nd page? No comments? I guess my 45 seconds of fame are over.

Today's price $55,000

-jim lee

[sams]

Jim, I'd love to have your svelte boat, but I am already in a committed relationship with a much heavier cruiser.

Why dont you sail it in the Winter Shaw Island Classic next Sunday (2/19) and drum up some interest? Entry deadline is Monday.

[Tysk]

Wish I had the money to take it off of your hands. Good luck.

[The Advocate]

$59,000 - To your door

408-340-0352

-jim lee

That's still a small fortune for a 26' boat. Heck, that sum would get you the most finely-honed J80 in the universe -- and it would have a lot better resale value I reckon. Heck, you could even buy two or three very nicely turned-out J24s. Not that you don't have a great looking boat, but $59K just seems insane. Not at all trying to insult; just trying to keep it real.

Have you even looked at the boat you idiot?

[U20guy2]

$59,000 - To your door

408-340-0352

-jim lee

That's still a small fortune for a 26' boat. Heck, that sum would get you the most finely-honed J80 in the universe -- and it would have a lot better resale value I reckon. Heck, you could even buy two or three very nicely turned-out J24s. Not that you don't have a great looking boat, but $59K just seems insane. Not at all trying to insult; just trying to keep it real.

Have you even looked at the boat you idiot?

LOL I was thinking the same thing. Clearly he thinks the boat should be built out of cardboard and have a mast that was built by a farmer with a little time on his hands and a welder in the barn. LOL

Cracks me up how little people understand about the man hours that go into building good boats. ART is not cheap - nore are well designed and built boats.

[GybeSet®]

can't compare to high mileage old tech j/24

[jim lee]

What's it today? $54,000

408 340-0352

-jim lee

[dogger]

$59,000 - To your door

408-340-0352

-jim lee

That's still a small fortune for a 26' boat. Heck, that sum would get you the most finely-honed J80 in the universe -- and it would have a lot better resale value I reckon. Heck, you could even buy two or three very nicely turned-out J24s. Not that you don't have a great looking boat, but $59K just seems insane. Not at all trying to insult; just trying to keep it real.

Have you even looked at the boat you idiot?

Oh joy, I've always wanted a J boat.

[trenace]

You know, I think today I am going to go to the new car dealer and tell the manager about the prices of used cars, and used cars of lower performance and level of finish too, to see if he will match those.

[bulbouskeel]

You know, I think today I am going to go to the new car dealer and tell the manager about the prices of used cars, and used cars of lower performance and level of finish too, to see if he will match those.

??? But as I read it this is not a new boat; it has been used a fair bit, no? Anyhow, don't get me wrong, I think it's a super cool design. I was just offering up a reality check as far as resale value.

[GybeSet®]

its done that regatta it won and the odd race, so ... no

just being 'run in'

new trailer

new sails that have been race-tuned by the sailmaker

[bulbouskeel]

In this economy and with a view to the resale price of used yachts, I predict it sells for $37K. I sure hope it fetches more; Jim seems like a great guy and the boat looks super. But I'm just being realistic.