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#201 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:17 PM

And for what it's worth, I agree with a hell of a lot of what Huston wrote above, and I think the one US event we've seen so far squandered a mountain of opportunities.

I do not necessarily think the answer is engaging the sailing industry, but it is certainly one answer. A common problem that '30,000 foot' perspectives like Worth's have is that they often don't realize that a million people are not engaged a million at a time. They are built up over time with every tool at their disposal. A good industry outreach program that includes free brochures in every West Marine and all the APS/Crowley's/SailingProShops out there is one tool, and an easy one. Asking the major regattas in the US to say something at their opening ceremony is another. Leveraging Club email lists is another. Ehman's dog-and-pony is another (and the only one right now). Online race games (the VORG is at 360,000 entered boats). Contests. Publicity stunts (AC 45 vs Aircraft Carrier on Top Gear, anyone?). Finding a great spokesman. And so on.

If each of these tools engages a few thousand people, and they bring in a few people each, well, there might just be a US success story down the road.


It ain't brain surgery, and there are well-proven models for this kind of engagement. Problem is that AC hasn't done it, for the most part. Hopefully, they use the next year to fixit.

#202 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:19 PM

And by the way, if there are not 20,000 people watching Shakira, I'll be shocked. She is an international monster, and she rocks (as long as she doesn't sing the english versions)

#203 pjfranks

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:21 PM

Correct me where I'm wrong, where someone has done anything remotely similar to what Ellison/the organizers are now doing.

You're not wrong there.
Ellison's the first man to try to change the AC into something it was never intended to be..
a commercial sports league circus and that's why RW says the deed is in the way.
GLS never intended the AC to be anything more than a series of one on one international matches.



#204 GauchoGreg

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:24 PM

And for what it's worth, I agree with a hell of a lot of what Huston wrote above, and I think the one US event we've seen so far squandered a mountain of opportunities.

I do not necessarily think the answer is engaging the sailing industry, but it is certainly one answer. A common problem that '30,000 foot' perspectives like Worth's have is that they often don't realize that a million people are not engaged a million at a time. They are built up over time with every tool at their disposal. A good industry outreach program that includes free brochures in every West Marine and all the APS/Crowley's/SailingProShops out there is one tool, and an easy one. Asking the major regattas in the US to say something at their opening ceremony is another. Leveraging Club email lists is another. Ehman's dog-and-pony is another (and the only one right now). Online race games (the VORG is at 360,000 entered boats). Contests. Publicity stunts (AC 45 vs Aircraft Carrier on Top Gear, anyone?). Finding a great spokesman. And so on.

If each of these tools engages a few thousand people, and they bring in a few people each, well, there might just be a US success story down the road.


It ain't brain surgery, and there are well-proven models for this kind of engagement. Problem is that AC hasn't done it, for the most part. Hopefully, they use the next year to fixit.


Exactly the kind of things I would love to hear if they are considering, or what other ones they might be considering. Millions of people go to boat shows all over the world, and it would seem maybe setting up an AC45 at the biggest ones, like they did at the Oracle event at Moscone, would be interesting. Hell, maybe just having a couple AC45s practicing off Manhattan would drum up some interest. Particularly if Coutts can fall through a wing again :D

#205 dogwatch

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:25 PM

When has a team put hundreds of millions of dollars into fundamentally changing the boats, fundamentally changing the racing, and entirely then doing their own coverage production of the event to this kind of degree? I can't remember that being done, in sailing or any other sport. Seems every attempt before involved modest changes in boats, very little change in the type of racing, and basically grovelling for anyone who might consider it to make the most basic effort at covering the event. Correct me where I'm wrong, where someone has done anything remotely similar to what Ellison/the organizers are now doing.


You are using the word "fundamental" very casually.

ESS and VOR have been operating mobile spectator-orientated sailing for years now.

The boats are a development of what the LAC guys have been doing for decades (and they are the ones here who actually deserve respect as innovators).

There's been TV coverage of course racing going back at least to what the Ultra-30 guys were doing in the UK in the 1990s. That has been developing ever since. Yes Stan Honey has taken it further. Is it fundamentally new? No, not in my view.

The racing is just course racing. It is nothing fundamentally different to what I and hundreds of thousands of others do most weekends. There's some minor tweaks to the RRS that few understand.

Whether LE has in fact at this point put hundreds of millions of dollars into the event (as opposed to what he spent on winning AC33) I rather doubt. What he spends on SF property development we can be certain he plans to recoup. That's the whole dialogue going on with the city right now.

By all means if you put together what's being done, it's a systematic attempt to change the way the AC is being presented. What I was taking exception to was the implication that this is some kind of boldly going where no man has gone before. It just isn't. It's televising a sailboat race.

#206 GauchoGreg

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:29 PM


Correct me where I'm wrong, where someone has done anything remotely similar to what Ellison/the organizers are now doing.

You're not wrong there.
Ellison's the first man to try to change the AC into something it was never intended to be..
a commercial sports league circus and that's why RW says the deed is in the way.
GLS never intended the AC to be anything more than a series of one on one international matches.




Give me a fricking break. The AC has not been what GLS intended for a LONG LONG time, and it never again will be just what he envisioned. But do you think he would have liked the 12m, iacc, etc? He had no way to envision what any of modern sport is like, including sailing, but I don't see why he would have been appalled by the idea of having the current stewards of his cup looking to make its profile bigger and return it to what could argued involves the fastest, most advanced boats (for the type of racing, at least).

#207 jhc

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:32 PM


Correct me where I'm wrong, where someone has done anything remotely similar to what Ellison/the organizers are now doing.

You're not wrong there.
Ellison's the first man to try to change the AC into something it was never intended to be..
a commercial sports league circus and that's why RW says the deed is in the way.
GLS never intended the AC to be anything more than a series of one on one international matches.

Wrong. Try George Schuyler. There are others, but George was the first, original guy that modified the purpose of the cup. Short memory? Larry is following George's lead. Nothing wrong with that.

#208 pjfranks

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:35 PM



Correct me where I'm wrong, where someone has done anything remotely similar to what Ellison/the organizers are now doing.

You're not wrong there.
Ellison's the first man to try to change the AC into something it was never intended to be..
a commercial sports league circus and that's why RW says the deed is in the way.
GLS never intended the AC to be anything more than a series of one on one international matches.




Give me a fricking break. The AC has not been what GLS intended for a LONG LONG time, and it never again will be just what he envisioned. But do you think he would have liked the 12m, iacc, etc? He had no way to envision what any of modern sport is like, including sailing, but I don't see why he would have been appalled by the idea of having the current stewards of his cup looking to make its profile bigger and return it to what could argued involves the fastest, most advanced boats (for the type of racing, at least).


Why? The MC clause is typical of a trust objective inserted to prevent redundancy of the trust. It is not representative of the trust's primary objective, simply a means of preventing the trust falling into disuse. The fact that the AC may only intermittently have operated in the way GLS intended does not invalidate the original intent or objective.

#209 pjfranks

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:37 PM

^^^

Yes GLS got rid of the fleet racing.

#210 PeterHuston

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:10 PM

And for what it's worth, I agree with a hell of a lot of what Huston wrote above, and I think the one US event we've seen so far squandered a mountain of opportunities.

I do not necessarily think the answer is engaging the sailing industry, but it is certainly one answer. A common problem that '30,000 foot' perspectives like Worth's have is that they often don't realize that a million people are not engaged a million at a time. They are built up over time with every tool at their disposal. A good industry outreach program that includes free brochures in every West Marine and all the APS/Crowley's/SailingProShops out there is one tool, and an easy one. Asking the major regattas in the US to say something at their opening ceremony is another. Leveraging Club email lists is another. Ehman's dog-and-pony is another (and the only one right now). Online race games (the VORG is at 360,000 entered boats). Contests. Publicity stunts (AC 45 vs Aircraft Carrier on Top Gear, anyone?). Finding a great spokesman. And so on.

If each of these tools engages a few thousand people, and they bring in a few people each, well, there might just be a US success story down the road.


It ain't brain surgery, and there are well-proven models for this kind of engagement. Problem is that AC hasn't done it, for the most part. Hopefully, they use the next year to fixit.


Thanks, and yes, completely agree, there is no one answer to promoting any of this, it will be alot of different tools to be used, because the audience is so widely varied in age/demo/psychographics ect.

Hell, maybe they need to go to Rovio and have them produce an "Angry Yachts" app game.

As for Shakira, if the concert is free, there could be 200,000 Italian dudes there, of all ages. A couple of them might even remember they went to a concert and a sailboat race broke out.

#211 Alpha FB

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:42 PM

Give me a fricking break. The AC has not been what GLS intended for a LONG LONG time, and it never again will be just what he envisioned. But do you think he would have liked the 12m, iacc, etc? He had no way to envision what any of modern sport is like, including sailing, but I don't see why he would have been appalled by the idea of having the current stewards of his cup looking to make its profile bigger and return it to what could argued involves the fastest, most advanced boats (for the type of racing, at least).


Hard to know the feelings of a man who's been dead for over a hundred years, but I'd like to think he would have enjoyed AC33 - at least the boats and sailing, not so sure about the legal shenanigans leading up to it

#212 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:12 PM

1) Get them to explain what ACEA and ACRM are, and how they overlap. I think I accomplished this.
2) Talk about nationality, see where they stand, and get them to take a stand. I know I accomplished this.
3) Introduce the personalities to our readership, since anyone who cares about the AC should know the top players. Yes.
3) Get Richard Worth to feel comfortable with SA as a conglomerate of ideas, and to accept me as a logical and fair reporter. Maybe.
4) Get to know Iain Murray, and to get him more comfortable with SA as AC director, instead of just an SAer (he has been reading SA since the beginning). Maybe.
5) Get another interview planned and accepted. No problem.

Those complaining about softballs are certainly right - I was definitely soft with them, only really forcing them on a couple of things. That was my intent, because if I came out throwing bombs at these guys before we built rapport, they would not answer honestly anyway and I would not be able to bring them back during the 18 months we still have until the Cup.


I understand you were willing to be nice for the first interview, it was sweet. I allways think that people like straight questions.
In a next interview that is what would be interesting to know:

Past:
- what do they think they succeeded and failed ?
- why didn't they choose competitors venues ?
- why didn't they get in touch with US sailing industry ?
- why did not they reach an agreement with a TV? (we got partial answer)
- why Plymouth figures were so wrong ? (the question was adressed but RW escaped easily)

Objectives:
- how many spectators is going to be a success for them ? how many on TV, how many on internet, how many on the coast ?
- when do they think that the event is self sustainable ? can it be ?

Key issues:
- they did succeed the spectacular of the event and the predictability but why is it still difficult to sell it to sponsors ? letting RW escape with no sponsors in Europe is too easy for him, the event is about 10% of the cost of a soccer team (dixit Bruno Peyron)
- what will the do with the branding ? are thinking of havin different names or are they still willing to mix the series with the LV and the AC. IMO, it makes no senses and not more to an executive.
- what do they see as the limit of the deed and the impact on sponsors ? For sure it is the long term but it would be interesting to have their point of view.
- what happens if OR loses the cup ?

#213 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:45 PM

TC, seems to me they touched on almost all of those subjects, and perfectly candidly.

You get the sense around here that some won't be satisfied until there is a Gotcha, You Stipid F'Ing Bastards! question asked, that has them whimpering "Okay, okay, we are all completely wrong, you're all completely right, we should never have moved to mutihulls, sailing cant ever get popular anywhere, and the future is so doomed that we obviously shouldn't even try!!!"

Sheesh :)

PH, thanks for responding to the interview but I'm curious, serious question, what would the value be in engaging Gary Jobson? Does he have constructive advice they need? What is it?

Is it a case of "YC members won't pay any attention to AC34 unless you actively go pull their noses up from whatever they are doing, and force them to watch Ehman type presentations" ? Because surely that could be arranged somehow, and TE likely is already doing a lot of that. But what does GJ get out of it, that he's after?

#214 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:57 PM

I don't know if they are doing right or wrong.
What I do know is that nobody has ever traveled this path.
Terra incognita.
No one has ever tried to do what Ellison and his team want to do.
And Ellison does not need that to defend the Cup.
The tone of the comments in this discussion reminds me of the wise comments of the courtiers while the discoverers were risking their lives by conquering new lands.
Bullshit nonsense.


Terra Incognita ? Yes. Their only mistake is trying to make too complicated things on the water with GPS etc. Simple is allways better

Did Ellison need to do that to keep the Cup ? No, he needed it to keep RC

No one has ever tried before ? No, Larry is trying to succeed where Ernesto failed. He goes as far as trying to make with the piers what the other tried with RAK.

Achilles's heel of Ernesto and Larry is the Deed.

#215 pjfranks

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:01 AM

TC, seems to me they touched on almost all of those subjects, and perfectly candidly.

You get the sense around here that some won't be satisfied until there is a Gotcha, You Stipid F'Ing Bastards! question asked, that has them whimpering "Okay, okay, we are all completely wrong, you're all completely right, we should never have moved to mutihulls, sailing cant ever get popular anywhere, and the future is so doomed that we obviously shouldn't even try!!!"

I think the WS should have been set up to be what it really is, not an integral part of the AC. If the WS is dropped by a new trustee then it is an orphan brand. It would have been better to build an independent brand for WS and it could still have been used as a trials series for the AC teams.

#216 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:08 AM

They have engaged yacht clubs. The presentation that I went to was pretty packed. There were a few mono supporters. But, the majority supported the move to multi's and progressing the format. The AC45s are cool. But, the excitement is only going to build, if they set a schedule of big air ampre theater type venues. San Francisco is going to rock with the AC 72's. ACWS needs to schedule events based on the highest probablity of wind in the 18-25 knot range.

#217 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:12 AM

What Worth said about the Deed was part of a reasonably good answer to Clean's question about continuity. You can't tell the new Defender and Challenger what to do; the best you might achieve continuity-wise is to create something they new parties ~choose~ to take advantage of, if/once they get to make those decisions. It's just the truth, and so why shouldn't RW point that fact out?

The question about ACRM's independence was a good one and IM answered it very well; hopefully that part of it will be hard to not play forward, even if the commercial side of the model underwent more change.

#218 pjfranks

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:20 AM

What Worth said about the Deed was part of a reasonably good answer to Clean's question about continuity. You can't tell the new Defender and Challenger what to do; the best you might achieve continuity-wise is to create something they new parties ~choose~ to take advantage of, if/once they get to make those decisions. It's just the truth, and so why shouldn't RW point that fact out?

The question about ACRM's independence was a good one and IM answered it very well; hopefully that part of it will be hard to not play forward, even if the commercial side of the model underwent more change.

Yes but don't you see that the message coming from RC is that it's the WS with the AC as a subordinate event and from RW that the deed is getting in the way (of the ACWS platform, my words). The sooner they decide to build a WS brand the better for WS to sell continuity as world super spaorts league gizmo.

Now let's say the WS is in AC72 from 2013 onward and the AC gets a new owner and new direction. If the WS is an independent brand then that makes for a good sponsorship activation possibility into the future don't you thnk?

#219 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:35 AM

The reasons they have tied the ACWS brand to the AC are obvious, not just commercial/branding ones either; and it really is a help to team's hoping to win the AC in winged multihulls, ask Any team and they will affirm that. More importantly this time, the AC itself won't be fought for in the ACWS boat's anyway so.. really, so what what they name it as?

The next time around, if an ACWS type event continues, then it could well be in AC72 V2's - certainly starting at some point in the cycle. Would it then be so wrong to use ACWS as it's name, when that is exactly the boat the Cup will be raced for in?

If the new Defender goes a whole new direction, then Yes it seems possible the current ACWS/AC45 series will get orphaned onto it's own series under a different name. Fine, they are new, there is a good sized fleet already, it's a pretty decent boat. Call it the xTreme45 World Series ;)

edit, responded before you edited, and: RC's comment about the WS ~some day, possibly~ being as compelling as the AC, won't ever detract from the fact the actual Cup winner is in the 'catbird's' seat. No WS trophy would ever outshine that damn thing!

#220 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:43 AM

TC, seems to me they touched on almost all of those subjects, and perfectly candidly.

You get the sense around here that some won't be satisfied until there is a Gotcha, You Stipid F'Ing Bastards! question asked, that has them whimpering "Okay, okay, we are all completely wrong, you're all completely right, we should never have moved to mutihulls, sailing cant ever get popular anywhere, and the future is so doomed that we obviously shouldn't even try!!!"

Sheesh :)

PH, thanks for responding to the interview but I'm curious, serious question, what would the value be in engaging Gary Jobson? Does he have constructive advice they need? What is it?

Is it a case of "YC members won't pay any attention to AC34 unless you actively go pull their noses up from whatever they are doing, and force them to watch Ehman type presentations" ? Because surely that could be arranged somehow, and TE likely is already doing a lot of that. But what does GJ get out of it, that he's after?




Upon reflection, I probably did not make Jobson's interaction that I described with ACEA clear enough - that was about US Sailing. Didn't mean to suggest or leave open for speculation anything about Ehman's gigs, which from what I can see are very much apart from ACEA, and anything to do with US Sailing.

Jobson, as the President of US Sailing, has an obligation, because US Sailing is the national governing body of the sport, to promote the sport. That's all part and parcel with the mission statement/bylaws of US Sailing. US Sailing, and all its predecessor entities (USYRU/NAYRU) were all involved with the Cup when NYYC and SDYC had it, in a variety of ways, probably least obvious of which was the US Sailing President Club would usually use the AC as one of their VIP events each cycle. It was good for the Cup, and good for US Sailing.

Does Gary have constructive ideas? Hell yes. But ACEA was literally non-responsive for months after they promised him/US Sailing a proposal. Beyond the very simple stuff I outlined previously, there is alot that US Sailing could do to help AC 34 in terms of connecting with their members, individuals, clubs and classes. I'll not belabor the points specifically here, because I'm not sure which direction the US Sailing staff might take things. Generally, I'm thinking that US Sailing can play a pretty simple role in some aspect of continual direct response marketing for ACEA. US Sailing is just another message distribution channel for ACEA, but one that needs some cultivation.

Whether someone likes Jobon's live presentations or TV work isn't the issue. The guy is an icon, and he has a huge following, and as the President of US Sailing he can make things happen very quickly, or at least put them in motion.

Again, not the be-all end-all of promoting the AC, but using Jobson's office as President of US Sailing to help spread the word of the AC through the channels that US Sailing controls can only help.

All that said, I still believe the most natural relationship between AC 34 and clubs and classes in the US starts with GGYC.

#221 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:08 AM

Tend to think the last paragraph is especially right, but just to quibble w something above that:

If Gary has constructive ideas then why isn't ~he~ the one making constructive proposals? If they were good, then surely they would be taken up?

edit: "Does Gary have constructive ideas? Hell yes. But ACEA was literally non-responsive for months after they promised him/US Sailing a proposal."

edit2: If Gary thinks he needs to be calling commercial shots, then what shots and why?

#222 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:17 AM

Tend to think the last paragraph is especially right, but just to quibble w something above that:

If Gary has constructive ideas then why isn't he the one making proposals? If they were good, then surely they would be taken up?

edit: "Does Gary have constructive ideas? Hell yes. But ACEA was literally non-responsive for months after they promised him/US Sailing a proposal."


I'm not 100% sure of what happened, but based on observation all last spring/summer, it was ACEA's "not invented here" syndrome, coupled with the fact they simply didn't make anything in the US a priority. The focus from ACEA seemed to be on simple press releases, and TV production. No real attempt to engage the sailing crowd in a meaningful and consistent method, especially where they all hang out, in their clubs and boats.

As I mentioned, I did speak with one US Sailing staffer back in the fall, who I have known for a very long time, and they were working on the proposal that would incorporate alot of ideas. But, I'm not sure there are any ACEA staff left to execute anything right now, so that point is somewhat moot.

Again, the relationship between clubs and classes in the US is going to be best served by GGYC leading the way.

edit: just saw your edit...it wasn't about Gary calling any commercial shots, it was simply about spreading the word of what was going on with the Cup through the distribution channels that US Sailing has, some of which are limited and/or underdeveloped, but some of which could be helpful with clubs and classes. It was more about just getting back to the core of what US Sailing used to do reasonably well, just being a conduit for communication between racing sailors.

#223 Estar

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:33 AM

FWIW both Stan Honey and John Craig are on the USS board and obviously also respected players near the top of the AC.

#224 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:34 AM

^^ Jobson now thinks it is AC's job to do for US Sailing what they used to do by themselves?

Well okay, maybe they will add that to the long, hard list IM already described in the interview. Their website could sure as shit use improvement, I doubt anyone ever even thinks to try find it, as a conduit to anything; maybe it should have a bunch of links to AC.com .. ?

#225 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:44 AM

FWIW both Stan Honey and John Craig are on the USS board and obviously also respected players near the top of the AC.


I am well aware of that, but my sense of John and Stan is things that were being discussed with US Sailing had nothing to do with them relative to their roles within ACEA. Stan especially, had much bigger fish to fry.

#226 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:55 AM

^^ Jobson now thinks it is AC's job to do for US Sailing what they used to do by themselves?

Well okay, maybe they will add that to the long, hard list IM already described in the interview. Their website could sure as shit use improvement, I doubt anyone ever even thinks to try find it, as a conduit to anything; maybe it should have a bunch of links to AC.com .. ?


Jobson doesn't think that at all, it is simply something that US Sailing can do to help.

As anyone knows, I have been plenty critical of US Sailing, and yes their website isn't all that good, but the website isn't the only thing they have that can be used to help promote AC 34.

Mostly, there are a ton of personal relationships that can be engaged. It's hardly the be-all end-all, but every little bit can help.

It isn't that big a deal, and Jobson wasn't looking for anything huge, or to make any more work for anyone, besides in reference to Iain, as far as I can see, he doesn't have anything to do with promotion or external communications. Iain is ACRM, not ACEA. He's got nothing to do with this.

And by the way, for whatever it is worth, Jobson is trying to help Newport raise the money they need to be able to run the ACWS event. We spoke about it last week, and so as to not drift off topic probably there should be a Newport ACWS thread.

#227 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:57 AM

I'm sure US Sailing has a role to play, but their membership numbers and online presence probably led ACEA to put them way down on the priority list. One Outside Magazine article is probably worth about 50 US Sailing newsletters.

Still, Gary's experience with Thompson was pretty emblematic of what I heard from sponsor contacts, team contacts, and industry contact about him: That he just didn't call people back.

I heard this from one non-sailing sponsor who was ready to drop 7 figures on the Cup; after three weeks of no returned calls or emails, he took his ball and went home.

#228 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:00 AM

^ Fair enough, I would suppose those few personal relationships are important, for whatever reasons. Although having Clean conversing with them is more important, to little me.

Think there already is a Newport thread, one of the much better ones here so far. Should be excellent as a venue, am looking forward to learning more about that place and culture.

#229 jhc

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:01 AM

So, you have finally figured out whats wrong with ac34. USS is not doing enough to promote it!

Shame on GJ!

Perhaps Gary has a different 'vision' of what ac34 could be?

#230 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:04 AM

^ Lmao! <big smiley!>

#231 ~HHN92~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:27 AM

Here is my view of the AC and the 'regular' club sailors, cruisers, racers, etc:

When I mention or discuss anything with the AC they ask 'what?'. I then give a Reader's Digest vesion of what has happened recently and where it is at now. It seems it is 'weird' that I know and follow such things as the AC when discussing it with many people. Some have heard a little about it but no details. There is no saturation into the vast majority of the sailing public. Most say it sounds 'pretty neat' when telling about the AC45's, but that is about as far as it goes.

If they want the US sailing public to not be a disinterested party to what is going to happen they had better figure-out a plan to address the problem. I do not know of anyone other than those that follow this forum that has a general clue to what is going-on with AC34. And there was the same lack of knowledge concerning AC33. I was out of sailing when the Cup was lost in '83 and then the '87 series, although my boss at the time, a non-sailor, knew some of it through a Playboy centerfold spread on S&S '87! He later got into sailing and bought a boat, becoming a casual sailor putzing around the gulf coast.

I take it many of you see the same thing?

#232 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:15 AM

^ Sure, get it that few people even know to consider paying attention. What magazines and newspapers do they read, anything? Then how do you as RW asked, 'activate' the AC34 product?

Even just the heated arguments about all the SF politics, money, NIMBY issues etc, well ahead of the Match, suggests to me that in prominent places in SF's awareness, this general subject is already big. With a 7M people-plus metroplolitan region that is fertile ground.

We say at the water coolers sometimes that what matters more than what you got attention for, is that you got attention. :)

#233 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:35 AM

Larry and Russell know very well that the Deed is their weak point. What if they lose the Cup ?
I cannot think that they don't have plan B.

The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.

What if it was to keep the ACWS for Russell in case of losing the cup ? the ACRN is based in Jersey and can be used by an aussie.

Whatever the result, they will have to change this stupid name. What ACWS means to any excecutive?

How will it take to RW and RC to get it ?

#234 maxmini

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:49 AM

Here is my view of the AC and the 'regular' club sailors, cruisers, racers, etc:

When I mention or discuss anything with the AC they ask 'what?'. I then give a Reader's Digest vesion of what has happened recently and where it is at now. It seems it is 'weird' that I know and follow such things as the AC when discussing it with many people. Some have heard a little about it but no details. There is no saturation into the vast majority of the sailing public. Most say it sounds 'pretty neat' when telling about the AC45's, but that is about as far as it goes.

If they want the US sailing public to not be a disinterested party to what is going to happen they had better figure-out a plan to address the problem. I do not know of anyone other than those that follow this forum that has a general clue to what is going-on with AC34. And there was the same lack of knowledge concerning AC33. I was out of sailing when the Cup was lost in '83 and then the '87 series, although my boss at the time, a non-sailor, knew some of it through a Playboy centerfold spread on S&S '87! He later got into sailing and bought a boat, becoming a casual sailor putzing around the gulf coast.

I take it many of you see the same thing?



On the TV show which I am currently working on , 30 min from Marina Del Rey , we have 9 sailors on the crew 3, racers and 6 cruisers. There is such non interest I stopped trying and get my AC fix in a dark corner on my IPad .

#235 sunseeker

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:51 AM

Larry and Russell know very well that the Deed is their weak point. What if they lose the Cup ?
I cannot think that they don't have plan B.

The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.

What if it was to keep the ACWS for Russell in case of losing the cup ? the ACRN is based in Jersey and can be used by an aussie.

Whatever the result, they will have to change this stupid name. What ACWS means to any excecutive?

How will it take to RW and RC to get it ?


Here's an idea, why don't you do like your buddy MSP did and start your own thread called Tornado Cats Legal Rhetoric And Other Casual Random Brain Farts then stick whatever comes to your mind in that thread, and leave threads like this alone.

#236 Te Kooti

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:12 AM

The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.



If NZ wins, everything will be on the table (inc. a venue other than Auckland).

But I would not kiss goodbye to the AC45 (because it is a decent boat).

However, I agree. Coasting onthe "world series" is just silly. Besides, the baseball WS is named after a newspaper.

#237 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:22 AM


The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.



If NZ wins, everything will be on the table (inc. a venue other than Auckland).

But I would not kiss goodbye to the AC45 (because it is a decent boat).

However, I agree. Coasting onthe "world series" is just silly. Besides, the baseball WS is named after a newspaper.

Right TK.

The AC45 is good boat but only I see the "ACWS" flying with a new challenger IF self sustainable.

The mix is silly, I am not even sure all posters on SA understand it, so what about the public and the sponsors...

#238 eric e

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 05:25 AM

so if etnz win the cup

bring in nationality rules

and dump the ac45 circus

rusty can buy it for peanuts

stock it merc. sailors

and everybody's happy

'cept larry

#239 Te Kooti

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 05:50 AM


The idea of integrating the WS with the AC was alright.

Except it was overly ambitious and European economies are in the tank.

Once they started trying to extract big bucks from WS host ports it started disintegrating.

So they detached WS waggons from the AC train.

The chequered flag and other nonsense alienated hard core fans

[Have you ever heard even one person speak in favour of the flag or announcing boat speeds in kilometres?].

This hastened the disintegration process.

However the boats are still good.

Maybe they can be deployed for a different purpose.


#240 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:36 AM


Larry and Russell know very well that the Deed is their weak point. What if they lose the Cup ?
I cannot think that they don't have plan B.

The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.

What if it was to keep the ACWS for Russell in case of losing the cup ? the ACRN is based in Jersey and can be used by an aussie.

Whatever the result, they will have to change this stupid name. What ACWS means to any excecutive?

How will it take to RW and RC to get it ?


Here's an idea, why don't you do like your buddy MSP did and start your own thread called Tornado Cats Legal Rhetoric And Other Casual Random Brain Farts then stick whatever comes to your mind in that thread, and leave threads like this alone.

"Any Yacht" may also be an appropriate name.

#241 ~HHN92~

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:16 PM

^ Sure, get it that few people even know to consider paying attention. What magazines and newspapers do they read, anything? Then how do you as RW asked, 'activate' the AC34 product?

Even just the heated arguments about all the SF politics, money, NIMBY issues etc, well ahead of the Match, suggests to me that in prominent places in SF's awareness, this general subject is already big. With a 7M people-plus metroplolitan region that is fertile ground.

We say at the water coolers sometimes that what matters more than what you got attention for, is that you got attention. :)


I will expand on a point I mentioned earlier:

All kinds of writers, directors, actors, special interest groups, etc, etc, etc. get placed on talk shows, NPR radio, network morning shows, and the like to have a spot for an interview to talk about whatever their deal is. It is promo to the hilt, instead of just an 'interesting chat'. Hell, Hal Needham was all over the place when he published a biography and its been 30 years since he did a movie with Burt Reynolds and was on the map of American interest. I listen to the local NPR station and when there is someone with something to promote you will hear them on at least 3-4 various programs, and I am sure there are more that I do not catch.

As much as they need the TV deal, they need to saturate the media with placements for promotions, and they have plenty of charactors to present for this effort. They do need to lay-off the 'best sailors, fastest boats' tag line, but do promote the level of the talent and the excitement of the boats and action.

Get people out having talks at yacht clubs around the US (and other places) with talks and video presentations of the new action and graphics. Again, there is enough guys to go out there and 'get 'er done'. I know Ed Baird, John Kolius and others came around during previous Cup cycles.

These items I feel will do more, and would have done more, to generate interest among the rank and file sailors than just hitting a few spots here and there. It needs saturation in the market. When this system gains traction then the TV deals can come together in a better fashion.

It seems to work for these other guys, why has it not been done already for the AC?

#242 SellingSailing

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:10 PM

I disagree with some of the advice above. All sporting events have a natural rhythm to them - a build-up. For the movie reference above, look at how close those publicity tours take place relative to the release date..it's close. Aside from those on the ground in SF who are dealing with tax/cost/enviro, etc. issues that DIRECTLY affect them, the general public will not get engaged in an event still 18 months away and a massive promotional campaign isn't going to change that. Attention spans are short. and what "action" are you asking the viewer/consumer to take? Are they supposed to remember that there's some type of related event in 50 days that has to found online somewhere? The only ones willing to do that are the CORE fans and at this stage, that should still be the marketing focus for the AC. (Local promotions for ACWS events are a different animal, and have their own rhythm). IF the core can start to talk and whisper, the event has a chance of becoming more relevant to the broader market. If its not important to the core - it will never be important to the broader market.

Broad market initiatives should ramp up in early spring 2013 and build to the event...

#243 GauchoGreg

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:18 PM

Larry and Russell know very well that the Deed is their weak point. What if they lose the Cup ?
I cannot think that they don't have plan B.

The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.

What if it was to keep the ACWS for Russell in case of losing the cup ? the ACRN is based in Jersey and can be used by an aussie.

Whatever the result, they will have to change this stupid name. What ACWS means to any excecutive?

How will it take to RW and RC to get it ?



Link to where the kiwis said they would, unequivocally, drop the ACWS?

#244 GauchoGreg

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:25 PM



The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.



If NZ wins, everything will be on the table (inc. a venue other than Auckland).

But I would not kiss goodbye to the AC45 (because it is a decent boat).

However, I agree. Coasting onthe "world series" is just silly. Besides, the baseball WS is named after a newspaper.

Right TK.

The AC45 is good boat but only I see the "ACWS" flying with a new challenger IF self sustainable.

The mix is silly, I am not even sure all posters on SA understand it, so what about the public and the sponsors...



There is nothing silly about it. They are trying to get a consistent, regular sporting brand out there, rather than relying on the AC only being every 3-4 years. Bruno Peyron indicated that is the only reason they are now involved, in fact. Makes sense for any team trying to go the commercial route. Obligating the teams to play in the ACWS is the only way to make it effective. If it works, then the added cost and hassle will be worthwhile. If it doesn't, then it won't. But the idea is not "silly", and I believe most of us actually do understand it. Having the smaller one-design boats do all of the ACWS makes sense in the long-term, in order to help with logistics, keep costs down, and make more potential ports suitable for the events, while also saving the wear/tear on the big boats, as well as allowing for more intrigue for the LV/AC.

#245 ro!

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:47 PM


Larry and Russell know very well that the Deed is their weak point. What if they lose the Cup ?
I cannot think that they don't have plan B.

The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.

What if it was to keep the ACWS for Russell in case of losing the cup ? the ACRN is based in Jersey and can be used by an aussie.

Whatever the result, they will have to change this stupid name. What ACWS means to any excecutive?

How will it take to RW and RC to get it ?



Link to where the kiwis said they would, unequivocally, drop the ACWS?


It's probably right next to your link that shows how the world series of the world has generated more attention than AC32...

#246 GauchoGreg

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:55 PM



Larry and Russell know very well that the Deed is their weak point. What if they lose the Cup ?
I cannot think that they don't have plan B.

The Kiwis said that they will dump the ACWS, at the same time Russell says that they AC45 may outshine the AC itself.

What if it was to keep the ACWS for Russell in case of losing the cup ? the ACRN is based in Jersey and can be used by an aussie.

Whatever the result, they will have to change this stupid name. What ACWS means to any excecutive?

How will it take to RW and RC to get it ?



Link to where the kiwis said they would, unequivocally, drop the ACWS?


It's probably right next to your link that shows how the world series of the world has generated more attention than AC32...


Link to where I said the ACWS has generated more attention than AC32??? I will help you out, I never did. I said that what they have done is getting more attention than any teams have ever had at this point in an AC cycle, and that I am sure the existing sponsors appreciate that, and that they are putting together something bigger than has ever been attempted before. Don't let that stop you from being a prick, though.

#247 ro!

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:58 PM


The idea of integrating the WS with the AC was alright.

Except it was overly ambitious and European economies are in the tank.

Once they started trying to extract big bucks from WS host ports it started disintegrating.

So they detached WS waggons from the AC train.

The chequered flag and other nonsense alienated hard core fans

[Have you ever heard even one person speak in favour of the flag or announcing boat speeds in kilometres?].

This hastened the disintegration process.

However the boats are still good.

Maybe they can be deployed for a different purpose.



You will find that spinbot and the oracalites were in favour of kph...boat speed in the fourties is so cool...

#248 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:14 PM

Everyone keeps talking about promotion as the highest priority. I believe that the quality of the product comes first. Then promotion and media exposure will follow. That's why I said earlier that making more, higher wind, amphi theater type venues a higher priority is vital to the success of the ACWS. The boats are incredible. But, even wing extensions are not going to draw the general publics interest like flat out edge of control pressure that can be viewed up close. The venue fee priority seems to me to be a big stumbling block to the potential success of the ACWS.

#249 dogwatch

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:17 PM

Everyone keeps talking about promotion as the highest priority. I believe that the quality of the product comes first. Then promotion and media exposure will follow.


"Will follow" is all very well but teams need to be building boat #1 now to have a realistic chance of making it to the finals of the LVC, let alone the AC. If the objective of the ACWS was to enable teams to extract sponsors in the AC34 cycle, it has failed. Some teams are starting to say they are in the ACWS for the AC35 cycle and that's all well and good if the ACWS lasts that long. It's a pretty safe assumption that unless OR wins AC34, ACWS needs to be self-sustaining or it will join many other events that failed to control their costs in regatta heaven. It's hard to see another defender subsidising it as LE has done.

#250 pjfranks

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:37 PM


Everyone keeps talking about promotion as the highest priority. I believe that the quality of the product comes first. Then promotion and media exposure will follow.


"Will follow" is all very well but teams need to be building boat #1 now to have a realistic chance of making it to the finals of the LVC, let alone the AC. If the objective of the ACWS was to enable teams to extract sponsors in the AC34 cycle, it has failed. Some teams are starting to say they are in the ACWS for the AC35 cycle and that's all well and good if the ACWS lasts that long. It's a pretty safe assumption that unless OR wins AC34, ACWS needs to be self-sustaining or it will join many other events that failed to control their costs in regatta heaven. It's hard to see another defender subsidising it as LE has done.


If you build an AC72 at the moment you are guaranteed a place in the semi-finals.

#251 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:17 PM

Here's an idea, why don't you do like your buddy MSP did and start your own thread called Tornado Cats


^^
FuckSeeker, RW expressed 2 major concerns regarding the future of the AC event: the branding and of the ACWS and the Deed.

Maybe you could tell us who were the first posters who mentionned these 2 issues on SA ?

#252 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:31 PM

There is nothing silly about it. They are trying to get a consistent, regular sporting brand out there, rather than relying on the AC only being every 3-4 years. Bruno Peyron indicated that is the only reason they are now involved, in fact. Makes sense for any team trying to go the commercial route. Obligating the teams to play in the ACWS is the only way to make it effective. If it works, then the added cost and hassle will be worthwhile. If it doesn't, then it won't. But the idea is not "silly", and I believe most of us actually do understand it. Having the smaller one-design boats do all of the ACWS makes sense in the long-term, in order to help with logistics, keep costs down, and make more potential ports suitable for the events, while also saving the wear/tear on the big boats, as well as allowing for more intrigue for the LV/AC.

The ACWS were intended to train the teams and to find sponsors, I don't think it accomplished any of it yet. Worse the mix of the ACWS, the semi detached format, the LV and the AC makes it almost impossible to understand for excecutive and the public.

However it is fun to watch and great for our sport but the future is not assured. The Kiwis did not say officially they would stop it, but their only goal is to win and keep the cup.

How to find sponsors without clear plans for the future? which prevents the event from being self sustainable.

IMO, as soon as be get in the LV, they should detach the ACWS and rebrand it with names like Multi World Cup, Multi World Championship, Little America's cup.

Then they can work on long term plans, find sponsors and the future could be assured for the best of RC and RW.

#253 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:53 PM


Here's an idea, why don't you do like your buddy MSP did and start your own thread called Tornado Cats


^^
FuckSeeker, RW expressed 2 major concerns regarding the future of the AC event: the branding and of the ACWS and the Deed.

Maybe you could tell us who were the first posters who mentionned these 2 issues on SA ?

What do you want, a gold star ?

You mention the deed in every other post - try linking it with something intelligent.



#254 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:03 AM



Here's an idea, why don't you do like your buddy MSP did and start your own thread called Tornado Cats


^^
FuckSeeker, RW expressed 2 major concerns regarding the future of the AC event: the branding and of the ACWS and the Deed.

Maybe you could tell us who were the first posters who mentionned these 2 issues on SA ?

What do you want, a gold star ?

You mention the deed in every other post - try linking it with something intelligent.


Oh ! I did not mention other minor issues like the projected 500 000 spectators in Plymouth, the venues, the equity between teams, the difficulties in SF, etc.

Yep, they have more to learn reading us than you and SR . :)

#255 SW Sailor

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:11 AM




Here's an idea, why don't you do like your buddy MSP did and start your own thread called Tornado Cats


^^
FuckSeeker, RW expressed 2 major concerns regarding the future of the AC event: the branding and of the ACWS and the Deed.

Maybe you could tell us who were the first posters who mentionned these 2 issues on SA ?

What do you want, a gold star ?

You mention the deed in every other post - try linking it with something intelligent.


Oh ! I did not mention other minor issues like the projected 500 000 spectators in Plymouth, the venues, the equity between teams, the difficulties in SF, etc.

Yep, they have more to learn reading us than you and SR . :)

So I guess one gold star won't do it, eh ?

How about a dunce cap instead, "any yacht" ?



#256 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:43 AM





Here's an idea, why don't you do like your buddy MSP did and start your own thread called Tornado Cats


^^
FuckSeeker, RW expressed 2 major concerns regarding the future of the AC event: the branding and of the ACWS and the Deed.

Maybe you could tell us who were the first posters who mentionned these 2 issues on SA ?

What do you want, a gold star ?

You mention the deed in every other post - try linking it with something intelligent.


Oh ! I did not mention other minor issues like the projected 500 000 spectators in Plymouth, the venues, the equity between teams, the difficulties in SF, etc.

Yep, they have more to learn reading us than you and SR . :)

So I guess one gold star won't do it, eh ?

How about a dunce cap instead, "any yacht" ?

^^^^
There are only 2 possibilites, either you will be proven wrong again, or you won't be able to be proven right. :D

#257 SW Sailor

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:11 AM





Maybe you could tell us who were the first posters who mentionned these 2 issues on SA ?

What do you want, a gold star ?

You mention the deed in every other post - try linking it with something intelligent.


Oh ! I did not mention other minor issues like the projected 500 000 spectators in Plymouth, the venues, the equity between teams, the difficulties in SF, etc.

Yep, they have more to learn reading us than you and SR . :)

So I guess one gold star won't do it, eh ?

How about a dunce cap instead, "any yacht" ?

^^^^
There are only 2 possibilites,


Sorry, this falls in the category of jibberish nonsense, which I don't have time for..

Go find a spell checker.

#258 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:33 PM


There is nothing silly about it. They are trying to get a consistent, regular sporting brand out there, rather than relying on the AC only being every 3-4 years. Bruno Peyron indicated that is the only reason they are now involved, in fact. Makes sense for any team trying to go the commercial route. Obligating the teams to play in the ACWS is the only way to make it effective. If it works, then the added cost and hassle will be worthwhile. If it doesn't, then it won't. But the idea is not "silly", and I believe most of us actually do understand it. Having the smaller one-design boats do all of the ACWS makes sense in the long-term, in order to help with logistics, keep costs down, and make more potential ports suitable for the events, while also saving the wear/tear on the big boats, as well as allowing for more intrigue for the LV/AC.

The ACWS were intended to train the teams and to find sponsors, I don't think it accomplished any of it yet. Worse the mix of the ACWS, the semi detached format, the LV and the AC makes it almost impossible to understand for excecutive and the public.

However it is fun to watch and great for our sport but the future is not assured. The Kiwis did not say officially they would stop it, but their only goal is to win and keep the cup.

How to find sponsors without clear plans for the future? which prevents the event from being self sustainable.

IMO, as soon as be get in the LV, they should detach the ACWS and rebrand it with names like Multi World Cup, Multi World Championship, Little America's cup.

Then they can work on long term plans, find sponsors and the future could be assured for the best of RC and RW.


And if that happens, it loses the whole point of making the AC a financially feasible endeavor on a commercial basis. No, I believe the idea of the ACWS is good, albeit to this point far from a success in being financially feasible (i don't know that any of should have expected it to be so, yet).




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