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Heater hemming and hawing


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#1 bljones

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 03:30 AM

Looking for a bulkhead heater. looking at a Cozy Cabin Heater- I like the size and the small flue.



Posted Image



Budget is $500 or less. I have no problem with a used unit if anyone knws of one. Propane is fine, alcohol would be great, solid fuel not so much.

Anybody have any better ideas?

#2 jackdaw

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:08 AM

Forced air diesel (espar) off the table?

#3 bljones

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:13 AM

Uhhh... if I can find one under $500.

Got one? !!!???

#4 sailSAK

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:47 AM

Forced air cabin heater (Webasto) is by far the best investment of my entire life. Can't say any more. The thing is just that good. We have done 1-2 winter overnights or long weekends every month this year. Wouldn't trade it for the world. Really, freaking amazing. I have one of those Force 10 things hanging from my bulkhead- diesel. I'll sell it to you for less than $500 if you really want it.

#5 Ishmael

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:14 AM

Looking for a bulkhead heater. looking at a Cozy Cabin Heater- I like the size and the small flue.



Posted Image



Budget is $500 or less. I have no problem with a used unit if anyone knws of one. Propane is fine, alcohol would be great, solid fuel not so much.

Anybody have any better ideas?


Skip it, really pretty and huge propane appetite. Can you afford 5 lbs a night?
Espar.

#6 bljones

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 01:27 PM

Thanks for the feedback. Setting cost aside, a forced air system is off the table because there is simply no room for it. This is a small boat, systems-wise- the engine fills the engine bay, the galley cabinets are small and fully utilized, ditto for the berth and dinette lockers. So, bulkhead mount it is.

#7 Kris Cringle

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 01:34 PM

Looking for a bulkhead heater. looking at a Cozy Cabin Heater- I like the size and the small flue.



Posted Image



Budget is $500 or less. I have no problem with a used unit if anyone knws of one. Propane is fine, alcohol would be great, solid fuel not so much.

Anybody have any better ideas?


I installed and used one for many years on a Cape Dory 28. For New England, it was just enough to take the edge off, but we were glad to have it and used it alot. It was pretty miserly on fuel, they burn about 5,000btus of propane. If you're boats not too big or climate not too cold, it's a good little heater.

This is what we use now. Posted Image

#8 Ajax

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 01:36 PM

Pardon the hijack, but do those Force 10 heaters in the photos require a flue to be cut in the deck, or do you just mount 'em to the bulkhead and light 'em up?

#9 Kris Cringle

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 01:48 PM

Pardon the hijack, but do those Force 10 heaters in the photos require a flue to be cut in the deck, or do you just mount 'em to the bulkhead and light 'em up?


They did. Mine needed a 1" SS tube as a stack. I used a pipe bender to off set around a hatch. A small water resistant cover goes on deck. I sometimes wondered if the stack was really drafting all the exhaust but I never slept with the heater going. I wouldn't do that with any kind.

Another nice thing is it needs no power. We were never plugged in for power. We aren't with our woodburner either, it too is simple.

#10 bljones

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:04 PM

Skip it, really pretty and huge propane appetite. Can you afford 5 lbs a night?
Espar.


According to Defender, the consumption isn't that high.

http://www.defender....324057&id=48912
"10 hours per lb on low, 4 hours per lb. on high"




#11 mo fuzz

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:05 PM

We have one of the small Sig Marine diesel heaters on our 28 footer for over ten years and have used it extensively. Works great. Never had any problems.

http://www.sigmarine.com/

#12 steele

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:00 PM

I have a Cozy Cabin heater on my 30 ft boat now, we use it most nights out in the PNW. As mentioned already it will not really heat the boat on a cold day, just take the edge off. It would be about my last choice for a heater, I have one because space is very limited on my boat and the kerosene version was already mounted in the same spot (was called a force 10). It did not buy the whole unit, just converted the burner using a kit they used to sell. I run it off the little 1lb spin on tanks, it will go for hours on one.

The heater does not have a sealed combustion chamber so you have to introduce some outside air, I have a dorade close buy. An advantage is the stack is small, it uses 1" SS pipe, the same as stantions, the stack does work, the heater does not introduce moinsture to the boat. Adding a small 12V fan above the heater helps alot, and will keep the area around it cooler, otherwise any close wood will get scorched. The burner will go out if it does not have a good air supply, and it has a thermocouple to shut off the gass if it flames out.

If you can find a way to mount a better heater I would do it. Dickson and others come up on craigslist from time to time, so that might save some $. For me I could not use any of the better heaters since I had no way to mount them to get the proper stack height. Like you I was not going to invest the very large sum it would take to put in a forced air system.

#13 Soņadora

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:19 PM

We have the diesel version. My understanding is the diesel is a little warmer. I've used it a couple times and it seemed to warm up the cabin within about 6ft of the heater.

Slow's endorsement of the Webasto is compelling. Will need to think about that.

#14 sailSAK

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:47 PM

We have the diesel version. My understanding is the diesel is a little warmer. I've used it a couple times and it seemed to warm up the cabin within about 6ft of the heater.

Slow's endorsement of the Webasto is compelling. Will need to think about that.


I went through all the motions a while back. Ended up getting the entire Webasto package for less than $3k from Seattle. Popular in Alaska are the Toyo and Monitor diesel fired heaters for houses-the Webasto isn't much different technology wise. I have no concerns about running it all night long, or even leaving it running on the boat while away. I wouldn't run the Force 10 for 5 minutes unsupervised... You don't turn the furnace in your home off when you leave so why would you on the boat?

Here are some of the arguments I used for my decision:

SIG/Dickinson - Looks great and sure it works good, but heat output is lower than I needed. Add a 5 inch hole in the cabin top and deal is off. Where do you run the chimney? Right next to the boom? Take it off every time you sail? Price out the flue/exhaust components and fuel components NOT included and you will find price wise not a lot of difference stepping up to forced air. As far as simplicity goes they don't win either. They have a complex burner assembly and require a precise alignment of the moon and stars for everything to work properly. Same for the forced air heaters too of course. Seems like when you really start looking at these total price doubles or more and the complexity/requirements of the install is greater than any of the alternatives.

Force 10/Cozy cabin propane conversion - Since I already have a Force 10 diesel heater (dangerous and scary to use) I thought about converting it to propane. Found they no longer sell the conversion kit and the BTU output is marginal for even a small boat so this was off the table. What I can say in my experience with the Force 10 is that the chimney does in fact work well. I put some curves in mine with a 1" conduit bender to get a nice fit. They do require a lot of air to be drawn in so it may defeat the purpose a little to be drawing in cold air while heating. The hole in the deck is small, but larger than 1". Something like 2.5" with the chimney cap and all. You can put it almost anywhere, near the mast, sails and what not without much worry. Just don't put it next to a dorade... In summary it will work to a degree but it won't be enough to really dry anything out.

The Forced air heater requires a 2" or so hole that can be put in a variety of locations. Mine is right below the rail on the transom, out of the way of most everything and not weather exposed. I was able to cram it in space that wasn't there when I placed the order... It can fit! Combustion air can be drawn from outside or from a locker and heated air can be drawn in fresh or can recirculate for greater efficiency. Biggest downside is 2 amps all night long, but even a modest battery bank can support this. Some of the smaller skiffs around here have simply mounted Webasto or Espar under the dash or even bulkhead mounted, although the later choice is noisy.

#15 mayday1234

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 02:07 AM

+1 to what Slow said - with a couple additions caveats;
we've had both a dikinson on our last boat, and an Espar (same as Webasto) and definately arguments for both.
all in all the forced air is probably the best option - BUT there are some downsides - the fuel pump can be noisy - not "loud" but if you are a light sleeper like me, occasionally annoying. Power draw can also be an issue - ~9amps starting, and at least 2operating. finally, they are pricey - i managed to find a trucking place that sold just the pieces for $1000 but I did the install myself (for 25-30' boat)
The bulkhead diesel produced a nice warm dry heat with no power draw, but did need the hole in the deck, vent stack etc. as well as can be finicky to light (depending on the model, vent height etc).
if money was no option and starting from a clean slate i'd go with the forced air, but diesel drip should not be ruled out if it fits with the budget.

#16 bljones

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:10 AM

I guess I should further complicate the issue by allowing that power management is a concern. no shorepower, limited battery capacity, so that is another wrinkle in the forced air bedspread.
Here's what I've got to work with:

Posted Image


Under the forward bench is the radar reflector, the head seacock, flaregun canister. Under the aft bench is the house and starting batteries, the electrical/electronics toolbox and stainless fastener parts case, electrical connector parts case. On the port side is the galley, under the sink is the freshwater jug, garbage can, bowls, pots/pans, dishrack, towels, and assorted other galley cleaning stuff. No room to be bought or borrowed there.

And looking front to back:

Posted Image

Under the quarter berth is toolbag , socket and wrench kit, dog food, and Kuuma grille.
Behind the stairs is the engine, transmission, fuel tank. With cockpit locker on starboard side and quarter berth on port side, I have seen nuns that weren't this tight.

Posted Image


The only option I have is a small bulkhead heater, and even that is going to take some thinking. We don't sail year round, and we don't live aboard 12 months out of the year, but a little heat would make a rainy weekend in late April/Early May much more bearable. Two people and two dogs in a small cold space with sharp cutlery hanging on the bulkhead has the potential to get ugly.

#17 Ishmael

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:50 AM

You can find room. My Espar is tucked up inside the port cockpit coaming, totally useless space otherwise, and still works after 25+ years. It's noisy and it's incredibly rusty, and it still cranks out the heat. +1 for quality of heat and zero maintenance, at least by the PO. I'm just scared to touch it.

#18 holla619

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:04 AM

Forced air cabin heater (Webasto) is by far the best investment of my entire life. Can't say any more. The thing is just that good. We have done 1-2 winter overnights or long weekends every month this year. Wouldn't trade it for the world. Really, freaking amazing. I have one of those Force 10 things hanging from my bulkhead- diesel. I'll sell it to you for less than $500 if you really want it.


I'm switching out to a webasto before next winter. We're at a marina with shower power right now so a little space heater is doing the trick, but the bulkhead diesel heater that is also on the boat SUCKS. When it works, it's great. When we're underway and we tack, causing the staysail's exhaust to force air down the stack and extinguish the flame, causing the entire cabin to fill with diesel smoke, is not fun. It's cozy looking when it works and super nautical, but really, nothing I would use underway or in really windy conditions.

#19 steele

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:05 AM

Wow, 2 dogs. One option is this,

Attached File  MH9B.jpg   27.67K   10 downloads

I used to use one of these prior to my bulkhead heater re-do. It puts out more heat than the cozy cabin heater, and because you can put in the floor it heats the whole boat better. It is cheap and works well with small propane tanks. The downside is it pulls in O2 from inide the boat to work, which you need to live, although I worry more aobut the dogs (same as the Sig heater). It also puts a fair amount of water into the air, enough to fog the windows in my boat in 20-30 mins. Since you live in CA (I think) it might be an option as you can vent the boat later in the day, unlike the soggy NW where I reside.

Edit, just get a bigger boat.

#20 holla619

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:07 AM


Pardon the hijack, but do those Force 10 heaters in the photos require a flue to be cut in the deck, or do you just mount 'em to the bulkhead and light 'em up?


They did. Mine needed a 1" SS tube as a stack. I used a pipe bender to off set around a hatch. A small water resistant cover goes on deck. I sometimes wondered if the stack was really drafting all the exhaust but I never slept with the heater going. I wouldn't do that with any kind.

Another nice thing is it needs no power. We were never plugged in for power. We aren't with our woodburner either, it too is simple.


I don't know where you sail or live, but some of the places I've gone if you don't have cabin heat you honestly will freeze to death or at least get wicked hypothermia.

#21 PNW Matt B

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:19 AM

I went with the smaller model Dickinson Newport Propane heater (9000 BTU output); yes, it needs a flue to the deck, but it's low profile, less than 5" tall installed and in use. Add another inch for a guard to shed lines coming across the deck and preventing them from ripping the flue off. It's a sealed combustion chamber and a double flue for a 3" hole; as I recall the outer flue draws in air for combustion while the inner flue is the exhaust, but I may have that backwards. Either way, it works very well; heats our 28' boat to comfortable shirtsleeve temperatures during PNW winters. I'm paranoid about CO and have two minitors in the cabin, but with the flue properly sealed I've never seen a leak. The bulkhead mount is pretty convenient, and while it does draw power it's very little - a 12v fan that draws less than 1A running flat out, plus whatever your solenoid relay draws while open.

(This image is pre-refit, ignore the cushions, the colors, the ports, the... yeah, anyway.)
Posted Image

#22 holla619

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:22 AM

You guys with the bulkhead heaters venting to the deck, are you never having problems while underway pumping around in a gale? Without sounding like a total wimp I like to have the heater on in conditions like that to make the cabin a somewhat hospitable place and to help dry out gear and get rid of the damp/soggy nature of foul weather.

#23 steele

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:33 AM

Just my opinion, but I think one would have to be realy brave to leave a bulkhead heater on under way. The flu/chimney is too prone to drafts and flame outs, flooding the interior with gas. Most chimney caps get red hot, enought to burn skin or sails. Perhaps in lower wind while motoring, otherwise no way. I am interested in other thoughts.

#24 bljones

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:39 AM

Wow, 2 dogs. One option is this,

Attached File  MH9B.jpg   27.67K   10 downloads

I used to use one of these prior to my bulkhead heater re-do. It puts out more heat than the cozy cabin heater, and because you can put in the floor it heats the whole boat better. It is cheap and works well with small propane tanks. The downside is it pulls in O2 from inide the boat to work, which you need to live, although I worry more aobut the dogs (same as the Sig heater). It also puts a fair amount of water into the air, enough to fog the windows in my boat in 20-30 mins. Since you live in CA (I think) it might be an option as you can vent the boat later in the day, unlike the soggy NW where I reside.

Edit, just get a bigger boat.

Steele, we currently use a small propane catalytic heater now. it's adequate but it takes up space on the table, and can't be used underway or in choppy weather- a hot heater cannonballing around the cabin is not my idea of a fun passage.There is no room to put a heater on the floor wihtout being in the way for someone to trip over or a dog to brush up against. The one of the few things more miserable on a small boat than a wet dog is the smell of burning wet dog hair.

I worry more about the dogs than me too. Being lower to the cabin sole, CO is always a concern, and I don't like the idea of the mutts being canaries in the coal mine.

Yeah, I could get a bigger boat- that is the answer to many dilemmas, isn't it?




#25 PNW Matt B

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:04 AM

Just my opinion, but I think one would have to be realy brave to leave a bulkhead heater on under way. The flu/chimney is too prone to drafts and flame outs, flooding the interior with gas. Most chimney caps get red hot, enought to burn skin or sails. Perhaps in lower wind while motoring, otherwise no way. I am interested in other thoughts.

We've used ours while underway, but it depends heavily on conditions. Keep in mind the flue doesn't really extend above deck very far, and what does appear on deck is like a metal mushroom - it's not going to pump or move about, and it's mounted on the cabin roof, aft of the mast, so I'm not worried about spray or taking water over the deck. It gets hot but we positioned it carefully; it's not directly below the boom except on very specific points of sail, and on those points of sail the wind across the flue would carry the heat away very quickly.

Thinking back, we've used it several times while motoring in rain and fog to keep the cabin warm (young children on board can't do the "just wear the appropriate foulies" routine very well.) Sailing only a few times in fairly moderate conditions - in 12-15 knots the motion of the boat is very steady, wave action isn't enough to rock the boat (pun intended), I didn't have any concerns about it. Rougher than that I think my main concern would be someone moving around the cabin falling into the fireplace, which also gets quite uncomfortably warm.

#26 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:38 AM

S'agapo has an Espar forced air heater. 10 years old and going strong. The PO used the programmable thermostat to heat the boat for a couple hours every other day to keep it dryer. We just use a dehumidifier because it never gets really cold where we are. When we first bought the boat I thought the complex thermostat was a bunch of hooey. But it is really cool to have the heater turn itself on and warm the boat up for you in the morning. (We don't run it at night, we have warm blankets.) The heater starting up does wake me up, along with the coffee maker that starts at the same time. 5 minutes of canoodling with the Admiral and the cabin is warm the coffee hot and all is well with the world.

I am strongly in favor of these sorts of heaters as they can be used while underway. I haven't ever been aboard a boat with a bulkhead heater that the owner would run while underway, the reasons have been cited previously. I'm a BIG FAN of a warm cabin when folks come off watch. It gets them warmed up and sleeping quicker, drys gear, and is more important (IMHO) than a spray dodger is on deck. In many ways a warm cabin does a lot to increase the endurance of the crew on a long passage. Most importantly, it makes my Admiral happy - and as we all know a yacht with an unhappy Admiral is an unhappy yacht.

BV

#27 Elegua

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:54 AM

So is there no option for electricity free heat underway? I have an epar that works very well, but was thinking about adding an additional bulkhead heater to serve as power free heat.

#28 Zonker

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 10:28 AM

We had a Force 10 propane version on our last 30' boat. Mounted high on the bulkhead (like about head height when seated). Didn't heat the whole boat very well until we put a small fan that blew across the 1" stack and the heavy brass top plate. That really improved heat circulation. On a small boat with limited battery power they are a good choice and fit the budget.

The Espars/Webasto etc. all draw so much power when running overnight or multiple days that they aren't that suitable unless you're at a dock.

Our current boat, a 40' cat has a large Fab-All diesel burner like the Dickinson 'Anarctic'. Yes it sometimes requires incantations to get it running, but once it does start up, it heats up one hull and the main saloon very nicely. The other hull not so much so we blow a few fans down into that hull. No electricity (gravity tank) and it burns about 2 gal/diesel/24 hours.

We used both heaters when sailing

#29 holla619

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:25 PM

So is there no option for electricity free heat underway? I have an epar that works very well, but was thinking about adding an additional bulkhead heater to serve as power free heat.


My bulkhead heater runs via a gravity tank that I fill through the deck. Simple and power free. Too bad it blows out and can't really be used underway or when the wind is kicking.

Posted Image


#30 Maine Sail

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:30 PM

Looking for a bulkhead heater. looking at a Cozy Cabin Heater- I like the size and the small flue.



Posted Image



Budget is $500 or less. I have no problem with a used unit if anyone knws of one. Propane is fine, alcohol would be great, solid fuel not so much.

Anybody have any better ideas?


I would not wish one on my worst enemy... We have had two boats with them installed by the PO's. It is nothing more than a glorified upside down flower pot with a burner under it. If you like the inside of your boat to fill with moisture they are fine but otherwise don't heat any better than making dinner with your stove..

#31 Maine Sail

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 09:28 PM


Looking for a bulkhead heater. looking at a Cozy Cabin Heater- I like the size and the small flue.



Posted Image



Budget is $500 or less. I have no problem with a used unit if anyone knws of one. Propane is fine, alcohol would be great, solid fuel not so much.

Anybody have any better ideas?


I would not wish one on my worst enemy... We have had two boats with them installed by the PO's. It is nothing more than a glorified upside down flower pot with a burner under it. If you like the inside of your boat to fill with moisture they are fine but otherwise don't heat any better than making dinner with your stove..


If someone wants to come to Maine and patch the hole in my cabin made by the vent (must be a 100% gelcoat match inside and out) you can have this heater for FREE!!!!

Has not been used in the six years we've owned the boat and ripping it out is low on the priority list..

#32 Veeger

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 09:39 PM

BLJ,

I certainly sympathize with the challenges you're faced with for finding any adequate heating solution, let alone one that is economical and low power. We recently had a thread about the Wallas stove with heater lid. I think that's about the best solution available to you for actual heat without disrupticating your limited space down below. Of course, we found it wasn't inexpensive but none of the options really are. They were also relatively light on electrical consumption as well. Given your situation, I'd save some pennies for one and go that route.

#33 deadbeatracer

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 10:12 PM

Looking for a bulkhead heater. looking at a Cozy Cabin Heater- I like the size and the small flue.



Posted Image



Budget is $500 or less. I have no problem with a used unit if anyone knws of one. Propane is fine, alcohol would be great, solid fuel not so much.

Anybody have any better ideas?

We had one of these in a J 30. Used it once. Filled the cabin up with smoke and didn't heat well. I think it's still in storage. Could be had cheap. Replaced with a Mr Heater propane unit for about 90$. Mounts with 2 screws and slips on and off. Strapped it down and it works well under sail. Has built in shut offs for tipping and leakage. Can take it off when not in use. No brainer for small boats

#34 Anomaly2

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 10:13 PM

Boy.... the recommendations are all over the place... (sort of like dream boats, Estar's sails, and ND's engine--- oh wait, for the later, I guess we've moved on to his leeboard design...Posted Image.).

Anyway.... BL, besides price, it looks like space is your big limitation no? Just some random thoughts: I think one might want to distinguish the Dickinson products from the Force 10 and others. I suspect there is a reason all the commercial fishing boats in Alaska use Dickinson... I don't have any experience with the bulkhead heaters but I do with the cookstoves. I think some of the negative comments are due to installation and usage issues. Adequate draft, which means adequate stack length coupled with a barometric damper, is critical. The damper is one key to use while underway/in high winds. The other is the type of cap one uses. I had some trouble keeping my Dickinson Bristol (the smallest model with an oven) going during a November nor'easter and called the Dickinson folks in Vancouver. First question the guy asked was did I have an obstruction near the cap (a mast or a large boat nearby). The answer was "yes" so the second question was what kind of cap was I using. I said I had some sort of fluted round design. The Dickinson rep said "you really should use our H-cap, a lot of people with sailboats don't like the aesthetics but that is the one we recommend and most of the commercial boats use them." I got an H-cap---- called a "Charlie Noble" around here-- from Defender and that was the end of my troubles.

What about a solid fuel heater? Dickinson makes a wood burning version of their Newport bulkhead heater. Not so good if you are heating 24/7 but your usage sounds like occasional weekends during the shoulder seasons (?). I've heard of folks pre-sawing up presto logs for short outings. We have a great marine consignment store here and it always has Dickinson drip heaters that are within your budget. Happy to go look for you if you want to go this route. But you have to find room for a gravity feed tank (unless you want to pay the power price to use a pump from your existing tank).

For cheap and way effective heat, there is always coal. Can you access good anthracite coal? If so, perhaps a tiny Fatsco stove would fit the bill. I burn coal in my workshop and it is a marvel compared to wood. I'd switch to it for my liveaboard boat (over the Dickinson) except that in constant use, the ash is problematic (very fine ash compared to wood). But, you could go new and still beat your budget with one of these.

Or, just reverse your advice to Ajax--- lay off the hookers and the blow for a month and put that money towards a down payment on one of those Wallas cooktop units, larger battery bank, and solar panels....

#35 bljones

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:18 AM

Or, just reverse your advice to Ajax--- lay off the hookers and the blow for a month

hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Now you're just getting crazy.


I really should have left the line "under $500" out, because, Anomaly, you're right- budget is less important than space.

And space is the real killer all the way around. The Wallas heating cooktop would be ideal... but, as wodndrfuland compact is one is, it is too big for the cooking space available in my galley. I have the opposite problem of ND, where 1 wallas is too small. No way to enlarge the cooking space without impinging on the icebox and/or dry goods locker.

part of the appeal of the cozy cabin heater was the small flue diameter, but, in retrospect, it doesn't really matter whether I am cutting a 1" 2.5" or 4" hole in the overhead. A hole is a hole.

Solid fuel has the advantage of no power requirement, no fuel supply to pump. I might have to chew this one over.


MaineSail, you make a tempting offer- if nothing else, the adventure of attempting to make a universally reviled stove work acceptably would generate some blog fodder, and the ammo is free... but, working under the scrutiny of the Mike Holmes of the old sailboat world to get a perfect gel coat match on his personal ride is beyond my skill (and my anti-anxiety prescription) level. ;)


Thanks for all the feedback so far, folks.




#36 Anomaly2

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:33 AM


Or, just reverse your advice to Ajax--- lay off the hookers and the blow for a month

hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA!



Probably should have stopped at the first "whoa." As is, you just opened yourself up to the "methinks thou doth protest too much" analysis.... just sayin

One more, on topic, thought. The solid fuel and the diesel fuel options produce a dry heat. Same can't be said for propane unless it is the sealed combustion and flue-within-a-flue design on some of the newer units. Check into this before biting on the "free" CozyCabin---- Wet ain't cozy and on a small boat I'd hate to see what might result from some of the options.

#37 Ajax

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:36 AM

You guys using these Mr. Heater units need to be careful. They are not catalytic propane heaters, which scrub the exhaust. They still require oxygen though. I have a Coleman Black Cat catalytic heater, but that's still not going to help BLJ.

My top hatchboard has a vent that should provide adequate oxygen suppy to the heater, but I carry a sub-arctic sleeping bag so that I don't have to burn it while I sleep.

#38 bljones

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:56 AM

Ajax, for the last couple of seasons we have used a coleman catalytic heater, but it's a kludge- it has to sit in the middle of the table, which really makes the space feel cramped and cluttered, and does a lousy job of heating the sole.

#39 bljones

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:57 AM



Or, just reverse your advice to Ajax--- lay off the hookers and the blow for a month

hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA!



Probably should have stopped at the first "whoa." As is, you just opened yourself up to the "methinks thou doth protest too much" analysis.... just sayin


I can quit anytime I want to.

#40 Mung Breath

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:18 AM

+1 on the Webasto (or Espar). I realize your space constraints are tight. But there's absolutely nothing better than entering a warm, cozy cabin underway between watches and to be able to dry out wet gear. Awakening inside a warm, cozy boat in only gym shorts when it's blowing snot outside is a wet dream. I have three (3) vents: one inside the head next to the toilet, one that pipes through the wet locker exiting mid-cabin, and one that vents into the owner's cabin/v-berth. Any can be shut off and the thermostat keeps everything under control. It vents out the stern for safety. Installation is practically DIY. You can tell me to shut up now....

I used to love the romance of a bulkhead-mounted stove with flame flickering away. Still do. Just look inside many of the old Hinckley's for pure emotion! I just can't imagine using one while underway or the soot blow-back. If your need is to have heat only occasionally at anchor, given the small space you have to heat, I would think one of the units mentioned here could be nice. However, if there's any possible way of squeezing in a small Webasto into some unused crevis, I'd try my hardest before giving up.

#41 Ryley

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:25 AM

I went with the smaller model Dickinson Newport Propane heater (9000 BTU output); yes, it needs a flue to the deck, but it's low profile, less than 5" tall installed and in use. Add another inch for a guard to shed lines coming across the deck and preventing them from ripping the flue off. It's a sealed combustion chamber and a double flue for a 3" hole; as I recall the outer flue draws in air for combustion while the inner flue is the exhaust, but I may have that backwards. Either way, it works very well; heats our 28' boat to comfortable shirtsleeve temperatures during PNW winters. I'm paranoid about CO and have two minitors in the cabin, but with the flue properly sealed I've never seen a leak. The bulkhead mount is pretty convenient, and while it does draw power it's very little - a 12v fan that draws less than 1A running flat out, plus whatever your solenoid relay draws while open.

(This image is pre-refit, ignore the cushions, the colors, the ports, the... yeah, anyway.)
Posted Image


+1 on this one. We have the larger unit on our Freedom 45 and it works a champ. We live aboard 24/7 and while in the middle of winter we supplement with a couple electric heaters, this unit has been awesome. Very warm, very simple installation, double-flu and keeps the interior dry and safe.


Just my opinion, but I think one would have to be realy brave to leave a bulkhead heater on under way. The flu/chimney is too prone to drafts and flame outs, flooding the interior with gas. Most chimney caps get red hot, enought to burn skin or sails. Perhaps in lower wind while motoring, otherwise no way. I am interested in other thoughts.


*IF* it blows out, at least on the propane ones, the gas stops flowing - it's a built-in safety feature. We can (and do) run it underway, although if it's going to be really rough, we have a cover to keep green water from flooding the tube. The only times we've worried about that was on our trip to Bermuda, so that is not really a problem for coastal cruising. The chimney cap on the Dickinson propane does NOT get red hot, and it can only burn sails if the flue is mounted somewhere where you'd be handling sails. On our boat, the flue is actually behind the mast by about 2', so there's really no chance of a sail landing on it. For what it's worth, we have *never* had a flame-out from wind or any other reason. They *can* be a bit hard to light when it's blowing hard, but once lit they tend to stay lit.

#42 Ishmael

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:43 AM

Our Espar is tucked up inside the port cockpit coaming, a space useless for anything else, and still soldiers on at 25 years of age, as creaky and cranky as I am. B)

#43 deadbeatracer

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:02 AM

You guys using these Mr. Heater units need to be careful. They are not catalytic propane heaters, which scrub the exhaust. They still require oxygen though. I have a Coleman Black Cat catalytic heater, but that's still not going to help BLJ.

My top hatchboard has a vent that should provide adequate oxygen suppy to the heater, but I carry a sub-arctic sleeping bag so that I don't have to burn it while I sleep.

Your right. We use ours during winter racing on our Mumm 36. Put out enough heat to make the cabin warm while leaving the companion way open. I wouldn't leave it on with the boat closed up. The new ones do have a low oxygen shut off and it's great not having to lug it around all summer. The open flame kerosene heaters ive been around allways smell so you still need ventalation. I will look to see if I still have ours. Would love to get rid of it if we haven't already.

#44 sailSAK

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:40 PM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?

#45 PNW Matt B

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:08 PM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?

Yep. Tested weekly (part of the checklist, right next to the bilge pump timer and before the engine startup.)

#46 steele

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:30 PM

Yes, checked it yesterday, whats a bilge pump?

#47 Ishmael

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?


Only in the summer, the canaries croak off in the winter.

#48 Ryley

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 07:13 PM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?

CO, Propane with two detectors, bilge alarm.

BTW the propane fume detector, if placed in the "right" place, will also detect an outgassing battery. And freeze-dried farts.

#49 holla619

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 07:18 PM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?


Those things are so cheap and effective I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't have a couple of them hanging around.

#50 blackjenner

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 07:47 PM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?


Abso-fuckin-loutely.

You bet we do. I didn't buy a boat to die in it because of CO poisoning.

#51 holla619

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 08:42 PM


Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?


Abso-fuckin-loutely.

You bet we do. I didn't buy a boat to die in it because of CO poisoning.


Yeah I bought mine to alienate women and become a destitute bitter old man.

#52 Hiracer

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 09:43 PM

You guys with the bulkhead heaters venting to the deck, are you never having problems while underway pumping around in a gale? Without sounding like a total wimp I like to have the heater on in conditions like that to make the cabin a somewhat hospitable place and to help dry out gear and get rid of the damp/soggy nature of foul weather.


Never had problems with venting to deck up to about 30 knots of wind. If I did, I would flick a switch and power on the venting fan. Not sure that solves the problem, however.

I operate the heater underway only if I am motoring. My stack is about 16" above deck and I worry about melting expensive sheets when sailing. That may be subject to change in certain benign conditions.

I like the bulkhead heater with gravity feed tank because I can get heat even during a battery down exercise.

#53 Great White

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:12 AM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?

Zintex CO monitor wired into the 12 volt circuit. Also, propane alarm system with automatic solenoid shutoff for the range.

#54 wkd928

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:12 PM

Over this side of the Atlantic we seem to have a lot of old Eberspacher heaters turn up on ebay for reasonable money. I just bought one that wasnt working - stripped and cleaned it and its working fine after the wiring had some attention. Will be installing it on the boat this season. I tried uploading a pic but for some reaon this isnt working for me at the minute - anyone else having problems uploading pics?

#55 smackdaddy

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:22 PM

bl - what do those Wallas stove/heater units cost? Seems like a great option in terms of space.

#56 blackjenner

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:18 PM

bl - what do those Wallas stove/heater units cost? Seems like a great option in terms of space.


The unit we would need would cost about $4,500.

Now, catch your breath and see why we are considering it.

1) We have to replace our Hiller range eventually. It's old, rusty and ugly. The cook top burners don't down-adjust. They just go out if you turn them down. I have to watch the thing when I'm using it.
2) We have/had plans on relocating the Dickenson diesel cabin heater to a better location, which means cutting *another* hole in the cabin top and moving the existing chimney. It works great, but I don't like it where it is (takes up foot space on a sette) and it needs to move.

If we get this stove we could:

1) Remove all propane from the boat. That means tanks (we gain needed locker space), electrical (selonoid, control switches, propane fume detector) controls, propane piping and fittings. This would simplify the boat.
2) Remove the associated propane risks with a boat -- they can explode, as demonstrated recently in Port Angeles. That man died. I'm not afraid of propane but, it does carry an inherent risk. If I can, why not remove that risk from Brigadoon entirely?
3) Remove the Dickenson heater, close the hole in the cabin top (still have the plug), gain sette space, gain cabin space, and get that roof-mounted chimney away from my sheets. This also means I can reuse the extra diesel line and pump for the 3 gallon day tank for another project too. I'd also gain a locker back (where the day tank lives).
4) Upgrade the stove and use it as a heater.
5) Have one single, easy to get, efficient fuel source (diesel) for engine, cooking, and heat.

That is why we are considering it.

#57 Dancing Outlaw

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:03 AM

What are your heating goals? Is your engine freshwater cooled? I thinking about adding Dickinson Radex heater. I'm guessing an hours motor into a creek to anchor will take the chill out of the boat. Anyone have any experience?

Scroll about halfway down.

http://www.dickinson...om/dheaters.php

#58 Salazar

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:34 AM

What are your heating goals? Is your engine freshwater cooled? I thinking about adding Dickinson Radex heater. I'm guessing an hours motor into a creek to anchor will take the chill out of the boat. Anyone have any experience?

Scroll about halfway down.

http://www.dickinson...om/dheaters.php

A friend had on on his Viking 33 plumbed into his freshwater cooled Atomic 4. He liked it, it worked well if you motored long enough.

I coincidentally tripped over the following on Estar's website a few minutes ago:

"Heater-Craft engine driven heater ( model 501-H-B ) - This is a 'bus heater' that runs the engine cooling water thru a radiator, with a fan blowing over it. It's inexpensive, and provides free dry heat (when the engine is running), and has been completely reliable. It does an excellent job warming up the boat when we are motoring into harbour."

#59 sailSAK

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:53 AM

The Wallas is a slick deal for sure, but it still needs a lot of AHr to get the job done... I would consider cruising with one only if I carried an alternative cook stove. I don't do well without morning coffee. Still would end up a net gain in simplicity and space but would not put 100% faith in the setup like we do with our propane.

Regarding engine heat- I tried with a small radiator and a fan. It works, but not a lot of BTU's overall. Maybe because I am operating in 40 degree water or cooler, and my little 2 cyl engine doesn't make a lot of heat anyway. I'm going to take it out next time I have to break open the cooling system.

#60 bljones

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:54 PM

I considered a Wallas countertop unit , but couldn't find a way to fit it in without sacrificing too much storage.
http://www.scanmarin...-July-2011s.pdf

Okay, so to recap, it looks like the Cozy Cabin heater is a non- starter, forced air is out, recirculating engine heat is out because my heating goal is dockside warmth primarily, so engine heating is a non-starter, low/no electrical consumption is a priority.
Okay, so it looks like the contenders remaining are a sig/dickinson diesel heater or solid fuel. A concern I have with a diesel install is the recommended flue length- I'm hard pressed to figure out where i would put the damn thing to get the recommended 6' chimney length.

#61 PNW Matt B

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:30 PM

I considered a Wallas countertop unit , but couldn't find a way to fit it in without sacrificing too much storage.
http://www.scanmarin...-July-2011s.pdf

Okay, so to recap, it looks like the Cozy Cabin heater is a non- starter, forced air is out, recirculating engine heat is out because my heating goal is dockside warmth primarily, so engine heating is a non-starter, low/no electrical consumption is a priority.
Okay, so it looks like the contenders remaining are a sig/dickinson diesel heater or solid fuel. A concern I have with a diesel install is the recommended flue length- I'm hard pressed to figure out where i would put the damn thing to get the recommended 6' chimney length.

That was exactly the chain of reasoning that led to my purchase of a Dickinson Propane heater. Yes, "PROPANE BAD!" and I don't actually disagree at all - but it's not hard to make it safe if you do a proper installation. Very low power consumption, very dry heating, high efficiency, no tall chimney stack on deck. On the other hand, you have to make a safe propane installation below deck.

On my boat, the propane cylinder is Crap On De Back. When not in use, it's disconnected. To use the fireplace, I connect the fuel line to the cylinder, open the valve, watch the regulator for signs of a leak, then open the solenoid to the fireplace. Light the fireplace, done. To shut it down, I close the cylinder valve, let the fireplace burn out, disconnect the fuel line, *then* close the solenoid. No fuel trapped below deck even within the fuel line. I'm not worried about the risk.

If you do decide to go diesel - and I was close, I could certainly understand - I'd go with an install that uses a removable flue above deck. Pull a plug, drop the flue into place, and go. If your main heating is at the dock, or even at anchor, that shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't put the flue close to any flammable materials.

#62 sculpin

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:16 PM

I coincidentally tripped over the following on Estar's website a few minutes ago:

"Heater-Craft engine driven heater ( model 501-H-B ) - This is a 'bus heater' that runs the engine cooling water thru a radiator, with a fan blowing over it. It's inexpensive, and provides free dry heat (when the engine is running), and has been completely reliable. It does an excellent job warming up the boat when we are motoring into harbour."

It may be semantics, but that isn't a heater, it is a radiator. I've got two Heatercraft rads in my boat, heat comes from a hydronic Espar that also heats the hot water tank. Works great.

#63 blackjenner

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:42 PM

The Wallas is a slick deal for sure, but it still needs a lot of AHr to get the job done...


This is what they publish:

Fuel Consumption: 3 - 6.5 oz/hour
Voltage: 12vdc
Full power amps:
.25a lid up
.75a lid down
Min power amps: (that is usually the heating setting I am told)
.15a lid up
.5a lid down

Starting amps (for the glow plug): 8a for 3.5 mins.

I don't think that's bad. I'm not sold but, that actually is worth considering.



I would consider cruising with one only if I carried an alternative cook stove. I don't do well without morning coffee. Still would end up a net gain in simplicity and space but would not put 100% faith in the setup like we do with our propane.


I have considered this -- putting my heating/cooking eggs in one basket. If you drop the basket.....but, I think the trade off with simplifying systems, along with safer operation with diesel might be worth it.






#64 Point Break

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:39 PM

Heater on a boat? What is this "heater on a boat"?

#65 Salazar

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:19 AM

Heater on a boat? What is this "heater on a boat"?

It's kind of like an "Air Conditioner on a boat" for those of us who live in areas with seasons other than summer. Posted Image

#66 steele

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:53 AM

If you decide to go with propane and do not have room for a proper vented locker this is a reasonable storage solution, expensive but safe and well made. I decided I could get by with the smaller 1lb spin on tanks and built a similar rail mounted system,
Attached File  001749ANewStyleRear.jpg   20.23K   4 downloads
here is the link to the store that sells it, http://www.suremarin...m/001-749A.aspx

#67 blackjenner

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:05 PM

Heater on a boat? What is this "heater on a boat"?


When it's your home, when you live aboard, especially in Seattle, it kind of comes in handy.

Context matters.

#68 Ajax

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:57 PM

Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?


Nope, I always crack a hatch and don't sleep with it on, but I'll buy one. I know I should. Do I install it high or low?

#69 PNW Matt B

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 05:06 AM


Lot of heaters out there, does everyone have a working CO detector on-board?


Nope, I always crack a hatch and don't sleep with it on, but I'll buy one. I know I should. Do I install it high or low?

It's the same density roughly as normal air. The detector should not be close to the heater or stove; they tend to generate a little CO on start, but that's not an issue. I tend to put mine just inside the primary vent to the outside. Lock up the boat like you're ready for sleeping, light up your heater, let it get going, then light some incense. Watch the smoke. Wherever it heads to leave the boat, find a spot and mount the detector there.

#70 cal40john

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:38 AM

Maybe the fishermen don't have the same issues as a sailboat. I've had problems on one tack and not the other when I had a Dickinson Antartic. A friend had a nice big dodger, it can create negative pressure at the companionway and pull air out of the cabin backdrafting the heater. He had a Newport diesel heater, he had the recommended length of chimney, he would run the fan, he had a damper. He bought the charlie noble. The Newports aren't completely sealed but have a primary place for intake air, so he ran an intake pipe from the heater up through the deck in the vicinity of the exhaust so the intake and exhaust would be in approximately the same pressure. None of it made any difference, sailing upwind once it got into the 20s, whumpf, and the cabin's filled with soot.

I have a Webasto now.

John

Boy.... the recommendations are all over the place... (sort of like dream boats, Estar's sails, and ND's engine--- oh wait, for the later, I guess we've moved on to his leeboard design...Posted Image.).

Anyway.... BL, besides price, it looks like space is your big limitation no? Just some random thoughts: I think one might want to distinguish the Dickinson products from the Force 10 and others. I suspect there is a reason all the commercial fishing boats in Alaska use Dickinson... I don't have any experience with the bulkhead heaters but I do with the cookstoves. I think some of the negative comments are due to installation and usage issues. Adequate draft, which means adequate stack length coupled with a barometric damper, is critical. The damper is one key to use while underway/in high winds. The other is the type of cap one uses. I had some trouble keeping my Dickinson Bristol (the smallest model with an oven) going during a November nor'easter and called the Dickinson folks in Vancouver. First question the guy asked was did I have an obstruction near the cap (a mast or a large boat nearby). The answer was "yes" so the second question was what kind of cap was I using. I said I had some sort of fluted round design. The Dickinson rep said "you really should use our H-cap, a lot of people with sailboats don't like the aesthetics but that is the one we recommend and most of the commercial boats use them." I got an H-cap---- called a "Charlie Noble" around here-- from Defender and that was the end of my troubles.

What about a solid fuel heater? Dickinson makes a wood burning version of their Newport bulkhead heater. Not so good if you are heating 24/7 but your usage sounds like occasional weekends during the shoulder seasons (?). I've heard of folks pre-sawing up presto logs for short outings. We have a great marine consignment store here and it always has Dickinson drip heaters that are within your budget. Happy to go look for you if you want to go this route. But you have to find room for a gravity feed tank (unless you want to pay the power price to use a pump from your existing tank).

For cheap and way effective heat, there is always coal. Can you access good anthracite coal? If so, perhaps a tiny Fatsco stove would fit the bill. I burn coal in my workshop and it is a marvel compared to wood. I'd switch to it for my liveaboard boat (over the Dickinson) except that in constant use, the ash is problematic (very fine ash compared to wood). But, you could go new and still beat your budget with one of these.

Or, just reverse your advice to Ajax--- lay off the hookers and the blow for a month and put that money towards a down payment on one of those Wallas cooktop units, larger battery bank, and solar panels....



#71 sailSAK

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 04:55 PM


The Wallas is a slick deal for sure, but it still needs a lot of AHr to get the job done...


This is what they publish:

Fuel Consumption: 3 - 6.5 oz/hour
Voltage: 12vdc
Full power amps:
.25a lid up
.75a lid down
Min power amps: (that is usually the heating setting I am told)
.15a lid up
.5a lid down

Starting amps (for the glow plug): 8a for 3.5 mins.

I don't think that's bad. I'm not sold but, that actually is worth considering.


Great looking figures, but those equate to 6650 BTU, which is not enough to heat a decently sized boat in even moderate conditions.I downloaded most of the user and install manuals for almost all heaters I considered. Installation was my prime concern, followed closely by amp hours. Price of course weighed in the equation heavily but I was willing to pay anything in reason for a good setup. You really need 12000 or more BTU to heat a boat to any appreciable temperature, but comparing apples to apples here is some data right from the literature: (with metric to imperial conversions applied where required. I used 12v to convert Watts to amps)
Attached File  heaters.gif   7.96K   24 downloads

The Wallas seems overly optimistic on the fuel consumption issue, as does the SIG. I expect the SIG BTU output is total including what goes out the stack. So many variables in bulkhead installation that I would consider those figures a 'best guess'. The larger forced air units show a lower efficiency, but it improves with higher BTU output. The amp draw numbers are not high enough to rule out solar/wind charging, even in winter months, supplemented with diesel or shorepower as needed.

#72 blackjenner

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 05:18 PM



The Wallas is a slick deal for sure, but it still needs a lot of AHr to get the job done...


This is what they publish:

Fuel Consumption: 3 - 6.5 oz/hour
Voltage: 12vdc
Full power amps:
.25a lid up
.75a lid down
Min power amps: (that is usually the heating setting I am told)
.15a lid up
.5a lid down

Starting amps (for the glow plug): 8a for 3.5 mins.

I don't think that's bad. I'm not sold but, that actually is worth considering.


Great looking figures, but those equate to 6650 BTU, which is not enough to heat a decently sized boat in even moderate conditions.I downloaded most of the user and install manuals for almost all heaters I considered. Installation was my prime concern, followed closely by amp hours. Price of course weighed in the equation heavily but I was willing to pay anything in reason for a good setup. You really need 12000 or more BTU to heat a boat to any appreciable temperature, but comparing apples to apples here is some data right from the literature: (with metric to imperial conversions applied where required. I used 12v to convert Watts to amps)
Attached File  heaters.gif   7.96K   24 downloads

The Wallas seems overly optimistic on the fuel consumption issue, as does the SIG. I expect the SIG BTU output is total including what goes out the stack. So many variables in bulkhead installation that I would consider those figures a 'best guess'. The larger forced air units show a lower efficiency, but it improves with higher BTU output. The amp draw numbers are not high enough to rule out solar/wind charging, even in winter months, supplemented with diesel or shorepower as needed.


Thanks for the data. It's worth looking over.

#73 Anomaly2

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:39 AM

John,

Great post. I wonder if you're right about the differences between fishboats and sailboats vis a vis the Dickinsons...? In fact, I have only used my Dickinson Bristol in the winters on my liveaboard... where it serves as both heater and oven/cooktop running 24/7 but I don't sail (yet) in the winters so what do I know about the Dickinson's when under sailPosted Image.

Furtther full disclosure: with thoughts sort of like what you report in the back of my mind, a while back I bought a Toyo (Toyotomi) NS-2800 cabin heater (forced air, flue-within-a-flue sealed combustion burning outside air) thinking I might just want to use it at times instead of the Dickinson. It does draw some amps but then again it has a computer-controlled remote function that seems sort of spiffy compared to the Dickinson. Your post reminded me that it was sitting in a box (never been fired) and so today while getting ready to install the Dickinson in a "new" (to me) boat, I found the Toyo and at least read the installation instructions Posted Image.

A question for those of you that have Webastos and Espars, where are you locating the main mailbox style unit and, more to the point, are you opting for top venting the exhaust/intake or side mounting it?

Maybe the fishermen don't have the same issues as a sailboat. I've had problems on one tack and not the other when I had a Dickinson Antartic. A friend had a nice big dodger, it can create negative pressure at the companionway and pull air out of the cabin backdrafting the heater. He had a Newport diesel heater, he had the recommended length of chimney, he would run the fan, he had a damper. He bought the charlie noble. The Newports aren't completely sealed but have a primary place for intake air, so he ran an intake pipe from the heater up through the deck in the vicinity of the exhaust so the intake and exhaust would be in approximately the same pressure. None of it made any difference, sailing upwind once it got into the 20s, whumpf, and the cabin's filled with soot.

I have a Webasto now.

John



#74 toddster

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:58 AM

If anyone is serious about un-wanting one of the sig propane heaters, I have one of the solid fuel units, with some pieces of flue, that I'm not too excited about installing. I'd be happy to trade. I don't really want yet another fuel on board (already have propane and gasoline.) Also, there is already a 1" flue pipe in the cabin roof from something that was previously installed.

I'd guess that any unit mounted up high on a bulkhead might need some sort of down-draft fan to heat effectively. Especially if the companionway is opened.

#75 Salazar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:59 PM

A question for those of you that have Webastos and Espars, where are you locating the main mailbox style unit and, more to the point, are you opting for top venting the exhaust/intake or side mounting it?

My Espar is behind the aft bulkhead up high in a part of the aft lazarette, more easily accessible through a removable panel in the bulkhead at the aft end of the rear cabin. The vent pipe goes up into the inside of the cockpit coaming to get as high as possible above heeled waterline before going back down again and out through the hull side just below the rub rail. The intakes (combustion and cabin air) are both from the interior of the lazarette.

#76 Great White

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 05:59 PM


A question for those of you that have Webastos and Espars, where are you locating the main mailbox style unit and, more to the point, are you opting for top venting the exhaust/intake or side mounting it?

My Espar is behind the aft bulkhead up high in a part of the aft lazarette, more easily accessible through a removable panel in the bulkhead at the aft end of the rear cabin. The vent pipe goes up into the inside of the cockpit coaming to get as high as possible above heeled waterline before going back down again and out through the hull side just below the rub rail. The intakes (combustion and cabin air) are both from the interior of the lazarette.

On my J35, I installed the Webasto just behind the diesel engine. The boat is built with two longitudinal bulkeads that extend under the cockpit. Perfect place to install the furnace. I ran the exhaust out the transom, it is about eight feet away. I quized the manufacturer about the distance and he said that it would be OK. I put a loop in the exhaust just inboard of the transom. Intake air comes from inside as does the cold air return to the furnace. A J35 is wide open through the interior. It has worked flawlessy for 12 years.
Attached File  DSCN0539.JPG   318.82K   12 downloadsAttached File  DSCN0541.JPG   297K   11 downloads

#77 Satori

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:44 PM

FWIW
I still have an Espar on the boat, but don't use it. Couldn't stand the jet noise & clicking of the little fuel pump inside, nor the outside howl for any neighbours at anchor. Also can't run it while motoring and I found it consumed too much battery juice for my "will I be able to crank the diesel in the morning?" paranoia.

Installed a Dickinson P9000 propane last year. Aside from the first few minutes of startup, it's quiet, even with the fan on (up to about 75% ?). Also have another small fan for directing air about that I can use for general circulation if necessary as well.
Already have propane stove/oven on board, and sniffer & solenoid unit. Separate gate valve for each of the supply lines enters the boat means I can turn the feed off during the warmer times.
On board I have a 10lb for the BBQ, so there's a backup fuel tank for any of the appliances.

Much happier now. Hunkered down on a wet blowy night in November, the unit works pretty well, not t-shirt conditions, but quite comfortable and dry. And the visible flame gives a really cosy feel which the significant & I like.

YMMV

cheers,
jcm

SV Satori
Yamaha 30

#78 Salazar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:48 PM

Also can't run it while motoring...

Why not?

#79 Hiracer

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:02 PM

A friend had a nice big dodger, it can create negative pressure at the companionway and pull air out of the cabin backdrafting the heater. He had a Newport diesel heater, he had the recommended length of chimney, he would run the fan, he had a damper. He bought the charlie noble. The Newports aren't completely sealed but have a primary place for intake air, so he ran an intake pipe from the heater up through the deck in the vicinity of the exhaust so the intake and exhaust would be in approximately the same pressure. None of it made any difference, sailing upwind once it got into the 20s, whumpf, and the cabin's filled with soot.




I am totally not understanding this. If I have the heater on, my companionway is closed. Ergo, no negative pressure inside on account of the dodger.

I have two Dorade vents, and a third deck vent with a solar fan. They prevent any back drafting down the stack. I keep the Dorades pointed into the wind to ensure positive cabin pressure.




This Saturday was nasty with winds 17 - 20 knots and gusts higher to 30. Rain all day. Nasty, nasty, nasty. In the cabin all day cooking, eating, and much drinking with nary a problem.

#80 Hiracer

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:08 PM

I still have an Espar on the boat, but don't use it. Couldn't stand the jet noise & clicking of the little fuel pump inside, nor the outside howl for any neighbours at anchor.




Thank-you. That would be me. I despair when somebody with an Espar anchors next to me. I really disike that noise, almost as much as the noise from generators.

#81 cal40john

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:55 PM


A friend had a nice big dodger, it can create negative pressure at the companionway and pull air out of the cabin backdrafting the heater. He had a Newport diesel heater, he had the recommended length of chimney, he would run the fan, he had a damper. He bought the charlie noble. The Newports aren't completely sealed but have a primary place for intake air, so he ran an intake pipe from the heater up through the deck in the vicinity of the exhaust so the intake and exhaust would be in approximately the same pressure. None of it made any difference, sailing upwind once it got into the 20s, whumpf, and the cabin's filled with soot.




I am totally not understanding this. If I have the heater on, my companionway is closed. Ergo, no negative pressure inside on account of the dodger.

I have two Dorade vents, and a third deck vent with a solar fan. They prevent any back drafting down the stack. I keep the Dorades pointed into the wind to ensure positive cabin pressure.




This Saturday was nasty with winds 17 - 20 knots and gusts higher to 30. Rain all day. Nasty, nasty, nasty. In the cabin all day cooking, eating, and much drinking with nary a problem.


Try sailing more and drinking less, improves cognitive ability. It usually backdrafts while out sailing. I suppose he could lock everyone out of the cabin, but then why have the heater on? He could lock everyone inside the cabin and let the autopilot steer, but then why bother going sailing. He could leave the heater off while sailing, but then he would never get his wife to go sailing. He has Dorades, they obviously don't keep up.

#82 Hiracer

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:30 AM

Try sailing more and drinking less, improves cognitive ability. It usually backdrafts while out sailing. I suppose he could lock everyone out of the cabin, but then why have the heater on? He could lock everyone inside the cabin and let the autopilot steer, but then why bother going sailing. He could leave the heater off while sailing, but then he would never get his wife to go sailing. He has Dorades, they obviously don't keep up.


I operate the heater underway only if I am motoring. My stack is about 16" above deck and I worry about melting expensive sheets when sailing.


I'll keep drinking; you keep working at the reading part.

#83 Satori

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:08 PM

Salazar posted:
> Also can't run it while motoring...<

> Why not? <

Not sure, but their literature stipulates not running while the engine is running. I suppose fuel supply issues perhaps?



I still have an Espar on the boat, but don't use it. Couldn't stand the jet noise & clicking of the little fuel pump inside, nor the outside howl for any neighbours at anchor.




Thank-you. That would be me. I despair when somebody with an Espar anchors next to me. I really disike that noise, almost as much as the noise from generators.



Too many times stuck in a nice anchorage, only to have that ungodly howl going on for ever from some other boat nearby.
Most of us have suffered the stinkpotter generator issue, but I'm frankly amazed at the number of sailboats that do exactly the same thing with either gennies or furnaces.
Perhaps I'm too sensitive to noise. Or perhaps those operators aren't.

jcm

#84 Hiracer

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:11 PM

Too many times stuck in a nice anchorage, only to have that ungodly howl going on for ever from some other boat nearby.
Most of us have suffered the stinkpotter generator issue, but I'm frankly amazed at the number of sailboats that do exactly the same thing with either gennies or furnaces.
Perhaps I'm too sensitive to noise. Or perhaps those operators aren't.

jcm




It's enough to make a guy grab some rum. :)

#85 SailAR

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:13 PM



Too many times stuck in a nice anchorage, only to have that ungodly howl going on for ever from some other boat nearby.
Most of us have suffered the stinkpotter generator issue, but I'm frankly amazed at the number of sailboats that do exactly the same thing with either gennies or furnaces.
Perhaps I'm too sensitive to noise. Or perhaps those operators aren't.

jcm




It's enough to make a guy grab some rum. :)



And scowl at the guy with the old ketch who starts his main engine up at 4am to catch the tide... :P

#86 bljones

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:40 AM

I am beginning to like the compact nature of a Fatsco "Pet."

Posted Image


#87 Anomaly2

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:34 AM

I am beginning to like the compact nature of a Fatsco "Pet."


Let us know if you go this route. I've admired the Fatsco line for years but never personally used one. I do like the dry heat from solid fuel stoves...

#88 tigger12

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:46 AM

Regardless of the kind of heater you have--have a good look at how air-tight (or not) your boat is. I did a few simple things this winter--added new weather stripping to the hatch boards, new foam tape to the lazarette hatches, sealed the openings to the mast inside the boat, and put plastic bags (held in place with rubber bands) over the fresh air inlets and exhaust from the engine compartment. I was stunned at the difference--even on the lowest of low settings, the little West Marine heater leaves the boat never less than 8C--and we have been down to 0 frequently.

The other thing I did was to rig up the Espar Hydronic heater so that it is connected to the fresh air inlet for the engine (I installed a 'Y' fitting in the lazarette). OK, so it is not pretty...but why was I heating the air inside the boat and then combusting it? If the concept is good enough for the best household furnaces...

#89 jimbojones

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:06 PM

How about one of these? I don't think I saw mention of them in the thread so far.

http://www.defender....066189&id=48897
http://www.defender....6189&id=1198066

I have one of the origos on a 28(okay 27.5) footer and it gets the boat very toasty although I have not used it under about 30 degrees. On a number of nights we were actually too hot with this. Looking at the pics of your boat this is perfect and WAY under your budget. In a quiet and safe anchorage we sleep with ours burning but have fire and co detectors.
You could easily make a bracket or gimble to bulkhead mount it.
I am 100% pleased with mine and like that it does not require modification to the deck and uses alcohol as fuel. I would caution you if you use alcohol for heat be wary of what is used to denature it as some of the denaturing chemicals are toxic and or irritating when burned.

#90 bluetriguy

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:13 AM

I have the wallas stove/heater in my boat. I removed a propane stove and heater due to age and since I had a diesel decided to go that way for cooking and heat.
Ceil is a 31' Trimaran and has a cabin top that spans a full 12" where the bunks are place on each side of the cabin. This equates to approx space you'd find in a 40' mono.
We keep her off Catalina Island (Los Angeles Calif) and while in the summer it's warm, the average water temp is 58f. This means we have a lot of interior 'fog' as the temperature differential induces a dew point that can dampen the interior overnight even when the day-time temp is in the 78f range.
This is mainly why I chose the wallas, that and NO chimney under the sails. The wallas burns the diesel in a sealed chamber that is drafted out the side of the boat (NOT UNDERWATER - but still a through-hull..). The venting means that damp air is pulled from the cabin and vented outside, the net result is that the cabin is actually dryed out - and this does actually work well. The top up/ top down amp draw difference is due to the higher fan speeds that the unit runs when in 'heater' (top-down) mode.
My real-world experience is that the heater does work in this space in these temp ranges (winter here runs average about 50f daytime and down to 40f night). which is admittedly a moderate range.
The cooktop works well but does take about 8-9 minutes to boil a 2 quart pot starting with 60f water...
Fuel usage is very good - I have it on a 2 gal day-tank which will run it all night for at least 3 days - with extra usage for cooking in the morning and evenings.
There is NO diesel smell at all. The only negative I have had is the unit uses a small solenoid fuel pump which though very quiet is noticeable if you listen carefully - though it's usually masked by wind or water lapping on the hull.
So benefits:
- no matches - it is entirely controlled by a switch and a temp knob.
- no smell
- no p-word
- ceramic cooktop is really easy to clean and does allow a 2qt saucepan and 10" skillet on at the same time
- I think it's frugal on the fuel use
- I easily run this unit and my freezer / fridge on one solar panel (80 watt) and a airex wind turbine, and of course the diesel fuel
- they have a great service dept

cons:
- may not be enough for colder climes - but I can't speak to that except to mention I live in Mill Valley (SF Bay) and summer here is brutally cold - the unit worked ok here as well...
- the unit requires a cooktop sized space.
- the unit requires 12vdc
- the pump is barely audible

I have my unit set up on a diy thermostat and timer so I can have it dry the boat out before I come on-board (not a factory option)
Cheers




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