76 replies to this topic

[Willy T]

So what's everyone's take on this;

here's my insurance policy

http://premiermarine...ONT02072012.pdf

They're writing off my boat from a dis masting. I have an almost brand new main 2 years barely used, North Kevlar, and a 1 year old, also barely used 133.

There's a subsection entitled, "Sails and covers" which states, ALL sails and covers which are 3 years old or less will be settled on the basis of full replacement value...

Am i wrong to think I should be getting the full amount that I paid for my sails, if not what they would cost now? I think it's pretty clear. What they're trying to convince me is that this clause only applies to claims made against the sails. It's not stated anywhere.

[kent_island_sailor]

They are totaling the ENTIRE boat. Ask for your sails back

[Moonduster]

Their decision to total the boat is in lieu of all other payments for repairs of any sort. Read the clauses that give them that right, I believe you'll find that the language their trumps all other.

[DA-WOODY]

`

So what's everyone's take on this;

here's my insurance policy

http://premiermarine...ONT02072012.pdf

They're writing off my boat from a dis masting. I have an almost brand new main 2 years barely used, North Kevlar, and a 1 year old, also barely used 133.

There's a subsection entitled, "Sails and covers" which states, ALL sails and covers which are 3 years old or less will be settled on the basis of full replacement value...

Am i wrong to think I should be getting the full amount that I paid for my sails, if not what they would cost now? I think it's pretty clear. What they're trying to convince me is that this clause only applies to claims made against the sails. It's not stated anywhere.

Insurance Co's cover swindlers as part of their business overhead

that is made up by the rest of us who never file a claim


those who have a legit claim get beaten up one way or the other

[hobot]

I know it's early but, shall I fire up the microwave for some popcorn?

[Innocent Bystander]

How are they determining value for the boat. If a stated value policy, you get what it is insured for less deductible. No arguements. If "FMV", you might be successfull in arguing that the newer sails increase the FMV, but it'll be a tough road. They presume that you regularly replace wear items and that preserves but does not add value.

Anything special about the boat that makes it worth you buying it back for salvage value and repairing it with a lot of sweat equity?

[some dude]

take the money then buy the boat (and sails) from them. happens all the time.
option 2: fight it. spend weekends the whole spring and summer writing nasty letters to them instead of sailing

[Willy T]

They are totaling the ENTIRE boat. Ask for your sails back

Unless I keep the boat, the sails don't hold much value. And they are fitted for that boat....

Their decision to total the boat is in lieu of all other payments for repairs of any sort. Read the clauses that give them that right, I believe you'll find that the language their trumps all other.

The sails came back in perfect condition which is amazing considering they were up when the mast broke into 2 and were underwater for an hour.

How are they determining value for the boat. If a stated value policy, you get what it is insured for less deductible. No arguements. If "FMV", you might be successfull in arguing that the newer sails increase the FMV, but it'll be a tough road. They presume that you regularly replace wear items and that preserves but does not add value.

Anything special about the boat that makes it worth you buying it back for salvage value and repairing it with a lot of sweat equity?

Not really. I put a lot of sweat equity into it already and i see value in the sails and motor, other than that. Not really.


They're determining it on FMV which came back extremely low. So i commented my concerns on the report. I won't post it at this point, but let's say it wasn't very pretty after I was done with it. The company who did the FMV did not know about the sails though and therefore did not take them into account.

I guess i'm arguing that the sails are defined under the hull and equipment and it clearly states, that all sails 3 years old and less will be settled on replacement cost. I really don't see much room for negotiation, but i'm wondering if I'm just too caught up in it.

take the money then buy the boat (and sails) from them. happens all the time.
option 2: fight it. spend weekends the whole spring and summer writing nasty letters to them instead of sailing

I've already got a replacement boat lined up and almost on the way.... can you say antrim!


I don't mind fighting with them, the difference is about double the amount. I'm 25 with too much energy, A good tussle will toughen me up a little.

[Willy T]

So funny story,


Tried about 8 times to get in touch with my adjuster yesterday after sending some emails. Either rang through to voicemail or went directly to voice mail.

Tried again this morning, left a message. Tried at 13:15, rang twice, then went to voice mail.

Being on a Voip system it was quite easy to register a vancouver phone number. Called back at 13:25 and he answered on the 3rd ring! Caught!

[Lido Guy]

c) in the event of a Total or Constructive Total Loss, there shall be no recovery unless all said property is lost absolutely or unless the expense of recovering and repairing the insured vessel shall exceed the amount stated on the Declaration Page. In the event of a Total or Constructive Total Loss our liability will be the lesser of:
i) the amount indicated on the Declaration Page;""

What are they offering you? If it is a lot less than the amount listed on the Declaration Page it might be worth raising the issue, but the amount listed is the most you are going to collect from the insurance company unless there are exceptional circumstances.

From the wording of the policy and the fact that a dismasting will total the boat it looks like you have a fairly small boat... is it worth your time to spend years of your life to trying to recover an extra few thousand dollars? If the amount is big enough, get a lawyer and go at them, but all told that will cost you a lot more than you think.

Good Luck!

[The Owner]

I don't see the declarations pages that show what your coverage limits are, etc but I would state that based on the policy conditions that you did attach that if the sails are undamaged as you state then you are not going to get paid for them- that would be like having a fire in your house but your TV wasn't damaged and you asking for a new TV. Even if they total your boat they are not going to pay you for undamaged stuff that you can take with you, irregardless of whether you can or wish to use it going forward. I am sure you've recovered all the equipment, electronics, safety gear that is still in good condition? In a case where your sails were actually damaged the policy clause you have would have paid for new sails.

[Willy T]

c) in the event of a Total or Constructive Total Loss, there shall be no recovery unless all said property is lost absolutely or unless the expense of recovering and repairing the insured vessel shall exceed the amount stated on the Declaration Page. In the event of a Total or Constructive Total Loss our liability will be the lesser of:
i) the amount indicated on the Declaration Page;""

What are they offering you? If it is a lot less than the amount listed on the Declaration Page it might be worth raising the issue, but the amount listed is the most you are going to collect from the insurance company unless there are exceptional circumstances.

From the wording of the policy and the fact that a dismasting will total the boat it looks like you have a fairly small boat... is it worth your time to spend years of your life to trying to recover an extra few thousand dollars? If the amount is big enough, get a lawyer and go at them, but all told that will cost you a lot more than you think.

Good Luck!

The boat is a 33 foot racer, no standing head room, very sparce interior, built in the early 80s. Insurance survey from 09 valued it at 12, insurance policy was for 16,5. They offered me 7 plus the boat back!


I mean, it's not life changing money, but 9 grand sure isn't worth writing off by any means. The sails receipts total just over 7400.

I don't see the declarations pages that show what your coverage limits are, etc but I would state that based on the policy conditions that you did attach that if the sails are undamaged as you state then you are not going to get paid for them- that would be like having a fire in your house but your TV wasn't damaged and you asking for a new TV. Even if they total your boat they are not going to pay you for undamaged stuff that you can take with you, irregardless of whether you can or wish to use it going forward. I am sure you've recovered all the equipment, electronics, safety gear that is still in good condition? In a case where your sails were actually damaged the policy clause you have would have paid for new sails.

When the boat gets written off, all of the accessories go with it including all the sails. And I think that's the kicker. The option to keep them isn't there, they are writing them off.


I guess in hindsight it would have been better if I didn't take the time and effort to try to save them. Seems bass ackwards

My opinion is, they're writing it all off, and we have to settle the claim which includes the sails. So when the policy states, "All sails will be settled", there isn't much wiggle room on their part.




edit: At this point, I don't want the boat back.

[Heriberto]

They offered you $7K plus they would give you the boat back?

Did I read that right?

The main is 2 years old and the jib is a year old? And you expect full replacement value? If you were selling, these sails would, at best, have 50% of their original value.

Take what they are offering and move on. You can cut the damn thing up for scrap and make any supposed difference.

[Willy T]

They offered you $7K plus they would give you the boat back?

Did I read that right?

The main is 2 years old and the jib is a year old? And you expect full replacement value? If you were selling, these sails would, at best, have 50% of their original value.

Take what they are offering and move on. You can cut the damn thing up for scrap and make any supposed difference.

yes you read that right.

I don't want the boat back.

sure they would if I tried to sell them. But my policy doesn't say they'll give me their current value, it says all sails 3 years old or less will be settled on replacement value. They came up with the terms, should they not have to follow them?

[StumbleNola]

As an attorney that does a good but of work in exacally this type of problem it looks like your only real option is to contest the FMV they assigned. Arguing about specific pieces of gear is pretty worthless unless you can directly show it effects the value of the boat (usually a new, higher powerd engine in a power boat for instance). In your case new sails really don't do this, their value is just part of the value of the boat, and there is no reason to believe that they noticeably increase the value of the boat.

However a valuation of less than half the listed value is suspect, and I would ask them for the justification for the low number. It might be, and I have seen where they used the asking price of a similar size and age boat that was of a different type. Think the difference in price between a Melges 20, and a Lightning... Remember ost boat insurance companies know nothing about boats, they are used to cars and think that way. Once you see the justification for the low number, see if you can fairly justify a higher one, and contact your adjuster with the supporting evidence, as well as specific reasons you think their number is too low, assuming a reasonable adjuster you can likely get a higher settlement price. And if the guy won't call you back, contact the state insurance commission, trust me they can get them on the phone quickly.

[Ship o' Fools]

They offered you $7K plus they would give you the boat back?

Did I read that right?

The main is 2 years old and the jib is a year old? And you expect full replacement value? If you were selling, these sails would, at best, have 50% of their original value.

Take what they are offering and move on. You can cut the damn thing up for scrap and make any supposed difference.

yes you read that right.

I don't want the boat back.

sure they would if I tried to sell them. But my policy doesn't say they'll give me their current value, it says all sails 3 years old or less will be settled on replacement value. They came up with the terms, should they not have to follow them?

Are they offering you $16,500 if you don't take the boat back?

[Willy T]

Nope. Havent made an offer that did not include the boat back.

The reason they offered it back is because they wont want to deal with it so theyre trying to offload it onto me.

Someone will have to separate all the metals. Itll have to get cut up and then trucked off to the dump where there might be disposal fees. Its not something i want to do nor do i want to pay storage fees on it. Its gonna cost some coin.

Thanks for the advice as a lawyer. I was hoping someone would have some credible advice!

[Willy T]

If they were simply repairing it, it would make sense that there would be no compensation for the sails. But because they decided to write it off , i see it as then invoking the sails clause

My own market research shows that it really should be around the 16 value.

[U20guy2]

Yes this seems very odd. All the boats I've insured with a company not known for marine insurance I set the value on the policy based on replacement value ie cost to me if the boat were lost. The Insurance company just cuts me a check once they confirm yep thats a loss and thats what they cost. Or in regards to theft of gear or repair of damage again I took the lead on sorting out the costs submitted them to the insurance company they simply confirmed it and cut me a check.

Not sure how they can total your boat and not pay out its insured cost. Weren't the sails factored into the coverage of the boat?

If your getting an Antrim I highly suggest you do some reading and research on the whole insurance thing given replacing the Antrim without proper insurance coverage might be a game ender for you.

Example my U20 was insured for what I would need to go out and buy a new one. That was not what I had in it. Which case my insured replacement amount was far more than my invested amount. But the up side was worst case soccer mom mounts me from behind doing 50mph while texting her boy friend with 7 kids in the car and destroys said boat I could go right out the next day and buy me another U20.

[Willy T]

When i insured it in 09 it included 5 sails. The two new ones were purchased after the policy and survey were completed. The survey put the value at that time at 12. I asked the examiner how it goes from 12000 to 7000 in 2 years by adding 7k worth of sails. She the. Explained how depreciation works on cars. I kindly asked what the depreciation rate on boats going from 28 to 30 years old would be.

An insurance co is there to make money. They dont do that by writing cheques.

What do you mean replacing the antrim without proper coverage? Do you mean replacing it with an unsimilar boat? Or owning an uninsured 2nd boat? Its not on its way yet but itll have insurance when i own it.

[U20guy2]

Willy you got screwed. Maybe avoid any insurance company with "Marine" in the name next time.

They didn't give you replacement cost they gave you depreciated value cost - two different things.

[Lido Guy]

The boat is a 33 foot racer, no standing head room, very sparce interior, built in the early 80s. Insurance survey from 09 valued it at 12, insurance policy was for 16,5. They offered me 7 plus the boat back!

Hobbie 33?

Whatever kind of boat it is it's going to come down to what the company agrees is "ii) the actual amount necessary to repair or replace the vessel."

They have offered you 7k and the boat back, since you don't want the boat back it seems like they should keep the boat and give you the lesser of the actual replacement value or 16.5k. The question is, what is the actual replacement value?

I wouldn't spend a lot of money on lawyers, but you don't have to accept the first offer they give you. It seems like you should hold out for a while and see what you can work out. At the very least they should pay you the salavge value of the hull. Maybe a local yacht broker can help you determine the replacement value of your boat.

Once again, Good Luck.

[U20guy2]

When you insure your next boat - be very clear that you want to set your insured amount based on its replacement cost to you. The insurance company if its worth doing business with will simply build you a policy based on the amount you want to cover. They should not give a flying rats ass if you paid 10K for top level professional racing sails or went down to the corner used sail loft and spent $100 on a set of old rags.

The whole point being for you to replace what you lost will cost X and that is what your paying to cover.

I think the issue is that your coverage on the old boat was just basic bare bones coverage. If I can insure a boat for $360 a year with a replacement cost of 25K set by me then I sure hope that you were paying virtually nothing for depreciated value coverage on 12K

[Willy T]

The policy for the hull is based upon fmv not replacement cost. Its been discusesd and they have defined fmv as what it would cost to get a similar boat in my market. You cant get anything even close here for 7 grand. I know the policy maxes out at 16,5. I wont get more than that, but 7 is just rediculous

[U20guy2]

Also just for thoughts - if your doing the Antrim idea - and based on where its kept in the water or trailer and in a region with severe weather ie tornadoes - and other types of weather that can wreck the Antrim while its safe on the trailer in a secure boat yard. You need to weigh the value to you - would you want to pay to have a new one built? Given its not like Antrim's are honda civics a dime a dozen and easily replaced. Much of my weighing my U20 insured value was in consideration that I could be looking at 30+K to have a new one built to replace the one smashed by the soccer mom example.

Just things to think about - don't need to tell you our precious sailboats are not like cars when it comes to finding replacements to ones lost.

[U20guy2]

The policy for the hull is based upon fmv not replacement cost. Its been discusesd and they have defined fmv as what it would cost to get a similar boat in my market. You cant get anything even close here for 7 grand. I know the policy maxes out at 16,5. I wont get more than that, but 7 is just rediculous

Stick to your guns - certain insurance providers always offer low payouts with the full expectation some of the customers might actually push back and say Heck no pay up. Many others just say thank you and leave with the small check.

My insurance provider actually calls me up and says OK what are we looking at to get you back on the water. I break out the costs and they cut me a check. In one case they kept calling me and I kept telling them I'm still trying to sort out what the costs are ha ha. I was being 100% fair finding the best deal I felt possible to make things right. In one case the adjuster who contacted me was a sailor and even said Oh that shop is always slow but does very respectable work - no worries have them call me when they finally get to the boat. Two months later he called to tell me they finally contacted him and were getting started.

Big difference in service vs working with you to get it handled and - doing all they can to stiff you for every dime possible. Insurance companies don't need to be pricks and scam artists. LOL though most are

[DriverEd]

PM sent, basically you will need to pay for a survey. There are two types of insurance, FMV and agreed upon value. If you go FMV, then you will need to offer proof that the value is wrong.

[Heriberto]

The survey 3 years ago put the value at $12K and you are insured for FMV.

Sorry, totaled or not, the FMV including your used sails is not going to be any more than the $12K number because sails are a regular maintainence item. That is unless you have done significant work and can document it. Perhaps you should pay for a new survey, then price out the replacement mast costs?

The bottom line is this, they are basically giving you $7K towards a new rig, the fact you want a different boat is irrelevant. The fact that you had listed a value of $16.5K is irrelevant. Your insurance was for FMV and $7K plus the boat (and your "newish" sails) is pretty close to that, deductible notwithstanding.

So yeah, see what you can get selling it to someone who will scrap it and use that as a counter offer.

[Willy T]

@u20, what company is that. They sound great!

[Rick 34018]

The boat is a 33 foot racer, no standing head room, very sparce interior, built in the early 80s. Insurance survey from 09 valued it at 12, insurance policy was for 16,5. They offered me 7 plus the boat back!

I think everyone is missing a couple small but very important parts of the contract:

BASIS OF CLAIM PAYMENT
All losses on vessels fifteen years of age and older will be settled on an actual cash value basis, applying full deduction for depreciation.
Unless otherwise indicated on the Declaration Page, for all vessels under fifteen years old, it is hereby understood and agreed that the insured vessel, including all the property insured under Section A of this policy, shall be valued as the amount stated on the Declaration Page.

ACTUAL CASH VALUE
The actual cash value will take into account such things as the cost of the replacement less any depreciation or obsolescence, and in determining depreciation, the condition immediately before the damage, the resale value, and the normal life expectancy. We will pay the lesser of:
i) the cost to repair or replace the vessel with material of like kind and quality;
ii) the actual cash value of the vessel at the time of loss;
iii) the amount indicated on the Declaration Page.
We reserve the right to repair or replace the vessel.
All losses on vessels fifteen years of age or older will be settled on an actual cash value basis, applying full deduction for depreciation.

Basically they can pick any number out of their ass as it's "depreciated value" and there's not much you can do about it.

Good Luck

Rick

[Willy T]

The boat is a 33 foot racer, no standing head room, very sparce interior, built in the early 80s. Insurance survey from 09 valued it at 12, insurance policy was for 16,5. They offered me 7 plus the boat back!

I think everyone is missing a couple small but very important parts of the contract:

BASIS OF CLAIM PAYMENT
All losses on vessels fifteen years of age and older will be settled on an actual cash value basis, applying full deduction for depreciation.
Unless otherwise indicated on the Declaration Page, for all vessels under fifteen years old, it is hereby understood and agreed that the insured vessel, including all the property insured under Section A of this policy, shall be valued as the amount stated on the Declaration Page.

ACTUAL CASH VALUE
The actual cash value will take into account such things as the cost of the replacement less any depreciation or obsolescence, and in determining depreciation, the condition immediately before the damage, the resale value, and the normal life expectancy. We will pay the lesser of:
i) the cost to repair or replace the vessel with material of like kind and quality;
ii) the actual cash value of the vessel at the time of loss;
iii) the amount indicated on the Declaration Page.
We reserve the right to repair or replace the vessel.
All losses on vessels fifteen years of age or older will be settled on an actual cash value basis, applying full deduction for depreciation.

Basically they can pick any number out of their ass as it's "depreciated value" and there's not much you can do about it.

Good Luck

Rick

I have seen that, but there are so many contradicting clauses, how does one know which clause to go by? If you look slightly above that, C) says, in the event of a total loss....
Similarly, the sails clause says, "ALL sails",

Also should be noted that when they decide to write it off, its no longer my boat


It's a very poorly written document.

[StumbleNola]

Rick,

You are right, but not in the way you think. Actual cost value just means that for a boat over 15 years old they won't replace it with a new one.

In this case the problem is that the insurance company is looking at replacing a generic 33' boat, of about the same age and condition. For this 7k may be enough depending on the market. But he didn't have a generic 33' boat, he had a specific type of boat that is more valuable than the generic, and they are not recognizing this at this point. It's the difference between a generic 20 year old car that is probably worth a few thousand dollars, and a 20 year old restored Porche. Until the insurance company understands that they are dealing with a Porche instead of a Honda, they won't budge. Again just jump online and pull the prices for all the Hobies you can find and go argue with the adjuster.

[Willy T]

Rick,

You are right, but not in the way you think. Actual cost value just means that for a boat over 15 years old they won't replace it with a new one.

In this case the problem is that the insurance company is looking at replacing a generic 33' boat, of about the same age and condition. For this 7k may be enough depending on the market. But he didn't have a generic 33' boat, he had a specific type of boat that is more valuable than the generic, and they are not recognizing this at this point. It's the difference between a generic 20 year old car that is probably worth a few thousand dollars, and a 20 year old restored Porche. Until the insurance company understands that they are dealing with a Porche instead of a Honda, they won't budge. Again just jump online and pull the prices for all the Hobies you can find and go argue with the adjuster.

In the report the "3rd party" listed 5 boats, then discredited 4 of them by saying they're not in the market area. I asked why they even listed them as comparables.


This is what they listed as comparable

http://www.yachtworl...N/United-States

http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States

http://www.yachtworl...Y/United-States

http://www.yachtworl...X/United-States

All of those had a note saying they didn't use them because they weren't in the market area

This was the only one listed in the market area

http://toronto.kijij...QAdIdZ354010921




I sent them a list of other ones including several Abbott 33s, a few more flyers listed at 14, and 16,000. A J34 listed at 29K, an evelyn 32 @ 14,9, a few hobie 33's. The nada price guide @ 14. A few Kirby 30's both at 17,5.

Nevermind the fact that the target market they identified is 2000 km from my actual location!




I would suggest everyone check their insurance policies. Taylor them in your favour and don't cheap out!

[Randall Flagg]

And everyone thinks all these policies are the same. Actual cash value is not the same as Agreed value, no matter how many times my customer says he got a price for the same coverage for 50 or 100 bucks less. When you have a loss you find out. An agreed value policy for $16,500 would pay $16,500. That's not what you bought. But.... you saved 50 bucks.

[davesimon]

There are policies called "Agreed Value" which are a lot different than "Actual Value" policies. I learned this lesson the hard way, and with much appreciation to a lawyer friend (and sailor) took 14 months and way too much anger to get an equitable settlement to get my boat fixed. "Agreed Value" will be a little bit more expensive - my policy went up maybe 25% - but the difference is huge as it prevents the whole game of an adjuster finding supposedly comparable boats selling for 25% of what it would cost to get your program back on the start line. "Agreed Value" means they agree to pay for repairs up to the totaled value. "Actual Value" means they do the whole depreciation thing which is a financial bloodbath for a fixed-up racing boat. Avoid the anger, get an "Actual Value" policy.

[DA-WOODY]

There are policies called "Agreed Value" which are a lot different than "Actual Value" policies. I learned this lesson the hard way, and with much appreciation to a lawyer friend (and sailor) took 14 months and way too much anger to get an equitable settlement to get my boat fixed. "Agreed Value" will be a little bit more expensive - my policy went up maybe 25% - but the difference is huge as it prevents the whole game of an adjuster finding supposedly comparable boats selling for 25% of what it would cost to get your program back on the start line. "Agreed Value" means they agree to pay for repairs up to the totaled value. "Actual Value" "Agreed Value" means they do the whole depreciation thing which is a financial bloodbath for a fixed-up racing boat. Avoid the anger, get an "Actual Value" policy.

fixed ??

[scarlet]

There are policies called "Agreed Value" which are a lot different than "Actual Value" policies. I learned this lesson the hard way, and with much appreciation to a lawyer friend (and sailor) took 14 months and way too much anger to get an equitable settlement to get my boat fixed. "Agreed Value" will be a little bit more expensive - my policy went up maybe 25% - but the difference is huge as it prevents the whole game of an adjuster finding supposedly comparable boats selling for 25% of what it would cost to get your program back on the start line. "Agreed Value" means they agree to pay for repairs up to the totaled value. "Actual Value" means they do the whole depreciation thing which is a financial bloodbath for a fixed-up racing boat. Avoid the anger, get an "Actual Value" policy.

You meant "Agreed Value" ?

[U20guy2]

@u20, what company is that. They sound great!

State Farm - also helps that we have lots of other stuff covered by them. If an insurance company only covers your boat you have less leverage with them regarding the whole - hey check out what other business I do with you then get back to me on how you want to handle my boat issue. LOL

A good insurance company and adjuster will have already checked this and will know just where they stand regarding business with you.

[davesimon]

Oh, crikes, good catch scarlet. Yes I meant "Agreed Value".

[davesimon]

By the way, my whole story including shout-outs to the Detroit Cal25 fleet for their help getting the program back together is at: http://www.cal25.com.../Insurnace.html

[Willy T]

There are policies called "Agreed Value" which are a lot different than "Actual Value" policies. I learned this lesson the hard way, and with much appreciation to a lawyer friend (and sailor) took 14 months and way too much anger to get an equitable settlement to get my boat fixed. "Agreed Value" will be a little bit more expensive - my policy went up maybe 25% - but the difference is huge as it prevents the whole game of an adjuster finding supposedly comparable boats selling for 25% of what it would cost to get your program back on the start line. "Agreed Value" means they agree to pay for repairs up to the totaled value. "Actual Value" means they do the whole depreciation thing which is a financial bloodbath for a fixed-up racing boat. Avoid the anger, get an "Actual Value" policy.

I've learned a lot in the past week about this stuff. Agreed or replacement value policies are for sure the way to go. This was never brought up by my broker when we first insured the thing. I wouldn't have been concerned about the extra $50 a year or whatever it was.


However. There is still no way that the boat is only worth 7K. And my policy is actually a "replacement value" policy with regards to any settlements on sails. I shall be arguing that one for a long time.

Now my claims examiner hasn't been in the office since friday and won't be in for the rest of the week. Monday is a holiday.

Today is 200 days after the loss was submitted and they're still going nowhere.

[U20guy2]

There are policies called "Agreed Value" which are a lot different than "Actual Value" policies. I learned this lesson the hard way, and with much appreciation to a lawyer friend (and sailor) took 14 months and way too much anger to get an equitable settlement to get my boat fixed. "Agreed Value" will be a little bit more expensive - my policy went up maybe 25% - but the difference is huge as it prevents the whole game of an adjuster finding supposedly comparable boats selling for 25% of what it would cost to get your program back on the start line. "Agreed Value" means they agree to pay for repairs up to the totaled value. "Actual Value" means they do the whole depreciation thing which is a financial bloodbath for a fixed-up racing boat. Avoid the anger, get an "Actual Value" policy.

I've learned a lot in the past week about this stuff. Agreed or replacement value policies are for sure the way to go. This was never brought up by my broker when we first insured the thing. I wouldn't have been concerned about the extra $50 a year or whatever it was.


However. There is still no way that the boat is only worth 7K. And my policy is actually a "replacement value" policy with regards to any settlements on sails. I shall be arguing that one for a long time.

Now my claims examiner hasn't been in the office since friday and won't be in for the rest of the week. Monday is a holiday.

Today is 200 days after the loss was submitted and they're still going nowhere.

Willie - my boat was broken into had $1500 in stolen and damaged gear. I called my agent the morning after told her just a heads up sounds like my boat and a couple of others were broken into at the secured Yacht Club yard- I said no idea what the damage is yet. 2hrs later the claims person assigned to this case called me and said as soon as I knew what the damages were to let him know. He told me that he had already confirmed the breakin via police records. Three days later I got to the boat and had everything priced out except the broken hatch. By Day 5 I had check in hand. By Day seven I had the replacement same exact outboard purchased and home - the broken hatch replaced etc.

Two weeks later I was contacted by a claims adjuster from another insurance company telling me the boat owner suggested they call me that I might have the police report or the officers name etc. I laughed and said you haven't settled your claim yet? He says no I can't seem to get a copy of the police report do you have it? I said no my boat is already fixed and all my stolen gear replaced by my insurance company. His response was Oh sorry for calling you. And Hung up! HA HA

[Squalamax]

When my one year old inflatable and engine got stolen back in 2006, they wrote me a check for $100 MORE than I submitted in slips. I love my insurance company.

[Spar Wars]

Some of the above has been right on, but here's the scoop from a licensed insurance agent, licensed insurance counselor, etc....ME.

Your contract is an Actual Cash Value policy because it is over 15 years old. That means a valuation will be done at the time of loss. You are right that comparables are the way to make the judgement of valuation. Your sails are not new, so the valuation is the ENTIRE boat. However, this would not include outboards, dingies and other portable equipment and trailers, if any.

They are doing a 'constructive total loss', which means the repair is more than the value of the boat. $7,000 is a settlement based on you keeping the boat, so they are valuating at least 25% above that number for the salvage. It does look like they are low balling you.

FIRST..insist you do not want the boat. That will automatically improve the 'u keep it price'; trust me they don't want to dispose of it.
SECOND..you should find a salvage mast and put the boat back together (after taking a say $9k settlement)..then sell it.

If you don't want to do those because you have another boat picked out...tell them $12,000 and you'll settle out. That's probably the true sale price of your boat with the sails if you hadn't dismasted. Expect resistance because the don't want to deal with the salvage. That is your trump card.

If $12k is still not enough for you.....do your homework on comparable boats..year/condition/type/sails...appraisals from brokers would help.

Good luck..it is not that hard to get a settlement; you just need to understand the ACV needs to be arrived at. It's like buying or selling a car..when the two parties agree..a sale is made.

[Spar Wars]

There are policies called "Agreed Value" which are a lot different than "Actual Value" policies. I learned this lesson the hard way, and with much appreciation to a lawyer friend (and sailor) took 14 months and way too much anger to get an equitable settlement to get my boat fixed. "Agreed Value" will be a little bit more expensive - my policy went up maybe 25% - but the difference is huge as it prevents the whole game of an adjuster finding supposedly comparable boats selling for 25% of what it would cost to get your program back on the start line. "Agreed Value" means they agree to pay for repairs up to the totaled value. "Actual Value" means they do the whole depreciation thing which is a financial bloodbath for a fixed-up racing boat. Avoid the anger, get an "Actual Value" policy.

I've learned a lot in the past week about this stuff. Agreed or replacement value policies are for sure the way to go. This was never brought up by my broker when we first insured the thing. I wouldn't have been concerned about the extra $50 a year or whatever it was.


However. There is still no way that the boat is only worth 7K. And my policy is actually a "replacement value" policy with regards to any settlements on sails. I shall be arguing that one for a long time.



Now my claims examiner hasn't been in the office since friday and won't be in for the rest of the week. Monday is a holiday.

Today is 200 days after the loss was submitted and they're still going nowhere.

Quite often the only 'form' available for 80's boats is the ACV contract. Agreed Value is reserved for newer and older larger, more expensive boats. This is an underwriting call. HOWEVER...there are plenty of companies that write agreed value, repair cost type policies. These pay full repairs up to the stated agreed value. EVERYONE: Boat Policies are generally the actual cash value type. Yacht Policies are replacement cost and agreed value. Look for Boat (Watercraft) Policy or Yacht Policy at the top of the first page of your policy. Yacht Policies cost more for obvious reasons. My Olson is under a Boat Policy, but it is agreed value/repair cost type.

[Jayk]

I'm in the marine insurance business for over 25 years. By putting new sails on boat has no bering on value. It's like spending $5k to put a new motor in a 1980 car. The value does not increase. The adjustor should be a marine surveyor. I did not see an arbitration clause in your policy so thats not an option. I would look to yacht world or other boat sale sites to see what similar vessels are selling for. If they are only selling for the $7k range then thats all you can hope for. In a total loss the insurance company can take the vessel as salvage. My advice is if you find similar vessels for sale at a higher value then present this to the adjustor. If not take the $7k and tell the adjustor to keep the boat.

[Rod Spearin]

I had this same situation happen about 12 years ago -- dismasted, recovered the rig and sails and went to the insurance company. The insurance offered to either fix the boat or total it as the new mast and sails were going to be about what the value of the boat was. I elected to total the boat but first asked if I could take off the new genoa and spinnaker, and the new instruments, and they agreed. I have had the next two boats insured by them and continue to get very fair rates and treatment. It really depends on the adjuster in a claim like this.

[sailingjunky]

DO NOT GIVE UP THE FIGHT!
Ins. co.s will avoid/postpone/avoid/postpone until you get tired of fighting and end up simply going away. They offered me 5 for my wavelength and after 4 months of haggling they sent me a check for 13 5. I bought the boat back for $100 and race the shit out of her to this day. It afforded me the opportunity to rebuild my little boat and now i know the vessel inside and out. I believe that allows me to sail her way better than i did before the accident.DO NOT GIVE UP.

[DoRag]

The short answer is that you are wrong.

[Abe Froman]

The short answer is that you are wrong.

The short answer is that you are a D-Bag.

[DoRag]

The short answer is that you are wrong.

The short answer is that you are a D-Bag.

Thanks for sharing that.

[hdglightning]

The FMV would calculate as the full price of the "boat" including the sails, equipment, etc. They would give you the check, you could then negotiate the price to buy it back. The sails "replacement value" does not come into play here.

The "replacement value" of the sails are for the sails alone. Lets say there was an accident that caused your main to get destroyed. In that case they would replace the main based on the full cost. That is when the replacement value of the sails come into play. They are not added on top of the "boat" cost when determining the FMV of the boat.

I would just contest the FMV valuation. Get your own valuation done and submit that (prob need at least 2 independent ones). Remind both of the value of the sails, etc.

Boat insurance is really there to cover someone else, not you. Kind of like Auto insurance is now. You don't really get it to cover your loss, you get it to cover the other guy's loss when you are at fault. Sad but thats the way the legal system has gone.

[The Owner]

What year make model is this boat? Sorry if I missed it

[Willy T]

@ hdlighting.

I think i'm still going to argue it. So here the thing, had the sails been damaged in the incident, they would have been covered to 100% of replacement value, not FMV as per the policy. Because I took the time to make sure they weren't i get basically diddly squat. (They were up when the mast bent in half). Now in the event that they were damaged, they would still have written them off and paid me 7.4 for them and would have recovered nothing. Now they can pay me less and recover something for them.

The loss here was the the mast, not the boat. But because the damage outweighs the value of the boat, they chose to deem it a "total constructive loss". The the loss that's being settled is the mast and damage. They are choosing to then call the "hull and accessories" a "total constructive loss". Therefore, we have to settle based on the terms and conditions as defined by the heading "hull and accessories", to which there is clause refering to "sails and covers", which defines 2 explicit categories, Sails under 3 years old and sails over 3 years old. This case falls into the former.




@the owner, the boat is a 1981 San Juan 33. Very similar to a T10

[The Owner]

Interesting boat, it does look a bit like a T10. There is one on Y World for $7900- has some deck issues but your adjuster probably looked around quickly and saw this and up comes your $7000 number (it was the only one I could find for sale). I checked the NADA guides and they don't have your boat in there, so he can't use that. The only made this boat for two years, 81 and 82 apparently? So there are not a lot of values out their to guide them.

[DA-WOODY]

@ hdlighting.

I think i'm still going to argue it. So here the thing, had the sails been damaged in the incident, they would have been covered to 100% of replacement value, not FMV as per the policy. Because I took the time to make sure they weren't i get basically diddly squat. (They were up when the mast bent in half). Now in the event that they were damaged, they would still have written them off and paid me 7.4 for them and would have recovered nothing. Now they can pay me less and recover something for them.

The loss here was the the mast, not the boat. But because the damage outweighs the value of the boat, they chose to deem it a "total constructive loss". The the loss that's being settled is the mast and damage. They are choosing to then call the "hull and accessories" a "total constructive loss". Therefore, we have to settle based on the terms and conditions as defined by the heading "hull and accessories", to which there is clause refering to "sails and covers", which defines 2 explicit categories, Sails under 3 years old and sails over 3 years old. This case falls into the former.




@the owner, the boat is a 1981 San Juan 33. Very similar to a T10

My take is that you are getting 100% FRV/FMV

as they are giving them back to you

you can sell them for FRV/FMV

that exact amount for those exact sails shall be determined by what you get

[Henri G.]

I have been here before. Make an offer to buy the boat back from the insurance company as salvage. You may end up with a salvage title but may not as well.
The salvage amount should be very low, negotiate well here, that value will be deducted from your claim. When done you should have enough left from your settelment to buy a replacement rig and put your boat back together. Make sure you sell the insurance company on the fact that they do NOT want your totalled boat and that it has almost no value to them. It is their expense to pick up the totalled boat and dispose of it, any offer they get from you will be considered when weighed against the expense of dealing with a totalled boat that has no rig.

[thumper]

Post your experience on Sailing Anarchy along with everyone posting their positive experiences with other insurers (like our glorious Ed) and send them the link. As the cancellation notices flood in they will rethink the strategies and policies. Never give up the fight!

[Willy T]

Interesting boat, it does look a bit like a T10. There is one on Y World for $7900- has some deck issues but your adjuster probably looked around quickly and saw this and up comes your $7000 number (it was the only one I could find for sale). I checked the NADA guides and they don't have your boat in there, so he can't use that. The only made this boat for two years, 81 and 82 apparently? So there are not a lot of values out their to guide them.

NADA guides value an 1983 (even though it doesn't exist), myabe just a typo, at $14,500 for a low end version and 16,500 for a mid grade version.


The person did come up with the one listed and made mention of the deck work. No one is going to buy a boat that needs that much deck work unless they get a steal of a deal on it. He then excluded it from the report as it "wasn't in the market area". He then came back to it later and said that the extreme deck work would cause it to have approximately the same value as the same boat with the 2 rear quarter berths removed......

There were only about 45 of them made if i recall correctly. I wish I would have printed them out, but there have been 2 for sale since about 2005 that have sold in and around the 20 K range.




@ DA-Woody, I am not getting the sails back. The order of operations is, everything goes with it when they write it off, no option to keep certain things. They gave me the option of keeping it as part of the settlement, If i decline to keep it, which is my full right to do, we're back to them being written off and out of my control.

[The Owner]

What caused the boat to dismast?

[Willy T]

What caused the boat to dismast?

no idea, they didn't tell me.  Just got the sails up and bam, over she went.  right at the spreaders.  wasn't overly gusty or anything.  No one got hurt so thats a good thing




EDIT: WOOT front page!

[desert olson]

I have my insurance with State Farm. I broke our boom in the Ship Rock race last year. Had a small tear in the main. After a little arm twisting I got a new boom and a new main as well. Stiched up the old main and now it is our delivery main.

[robalex117]

The boat was only dismasted not totaled. They are giving you $7,000, that should be enough to get a new mast.

I guess I am missing something becuase it it does not seem that complicated.

What caused the boat to dismast?

no idea, they didn't tell me. Just got the sails up and bam, over she went. right at the spreaders. wasn't overly gusty or anything. No one got hurt so thats a good thing




EDIT: WOOT front page!

[Willy T]

 Theyve declared it a total constructive loss. Meaning the value of the repairs is more than the value of the boat.  Therefore they take the boat and all accessories and cut a cheque.   

[Lido Guy]

Who has been paying to store the boat all this time?

[dash34]

Hmmm, I'm with Premier too. May have reconsider that, though my one grounding claim with them was well handled.

dash

[IrieMon]

Something to ponder..... the insurance company is "totalling" the boat due to their valuation of $ 7,000 (they estimate the repair to be more than this value). If you are successful in getting the Ins Co to value the boat at $ 14,500 (or whatever), perhaps they would then insist on a repair ? (being the cheaper way out for them).

Good Luck, sh-tty situation.....

[SPARSRUS]

What is the boat worth complete? If it is a Hobie 33, they can be in the $20K+ range. A mast and standing rigging is about $5800 for that boat. Take the $7K and put a new rig in the boat and sell it complete and you are much farther ahead. It is not worth much without a rig, as you know.
From my experience any boat 30' and below will be totalled by the insurance company if it is dismasted do to the cost of the repair. Replacement value insurance is probably the only hedge against it.

[Willy T]

There was some lifeline and hull damage caused by the incident. Repairs on that were quoted at 7500. Then the mast replacement was quoted near 20k. Then there is salvage fees on top of that which are covered seperately

[SPARSRUS]

I looked through our files and the SJ 33 is closer to a Soverel 33. The mast and rod rigging is more in the $10K range. Many repair yards inflate prices when they know that insurance companies are involved. If you really like the boat and feel that it is financially worth saving, you might be able to use riggers and independent repair people to do the work for considerably less than you have been quoted.
A marine surveyor told me that the insurance companies will total a boat when the repair costs reach 70% of its value. I don't know if that is insured value or assessed value, but it doesn't take long to get to that limit with smaller sailboats. I would not take the first insurance offer with out a bit of a fight. The insurance companies always seem to want to low ball the first offer. It is a negotiation and you do have the right to question the settlement.

Good Luck, I hope you can get some satisfaction. Unfortunately, I have seen many, many people in the same situation.

[Willy T]

Thanks Sparsrus!

I didn't think it was that close to a Soverel 33 so i'll do some research on that.

Just due to the location and the services available, it's not an easy repair. The closest spar place is in the GTA area, which means shipping etc. There isn't anyone on site that can do it, never mind anyone that could do it on the side. It's also rod rigging which means it has to go out of town. Boats here have a 10-20% premium over anywhere else, simply because of the lack and the cost to get them here.

[121 Guy]

Your problem is opinion. You have an opinion of what the boat is worth, the insurance company has a different opinion. You need an expert as both of your opinions are self serving. Boat US has a valuation tool available to members. You can type in the detais about the boat and pretend you are in the market for one and it will spit out a value. The insurance company will have a tough time arguing an "expert" opinion.

FWIW, I'd be shocked if main isn't hacked up some. Remember it is not your responsibility to lift finger one to get the boat repaired. Does it need to be moved for repairs? If the insurance com is playing lowball then you need to play highball. FWIW2- unless you are in love with the boat, let the insurance co keep it. Go for an all cash settlement and forget the buy at salvage. The insurance co is reading you as someone with an emotional involvement in keeping the boat....bad for business.

Hope this helps!

[DoRag]

This thread sucks and doesn't belong on SA.

[Spar Wars]

One more try:

1. Get some comparables to your boat to show the true market value
2. Get some comparables to your boat to show the true market value

Then, tell them you DO NOT want the boat and you do want the amount of the 'true market value'.

Then, forget the amount you insured the boat for....it was a declaration of what you thought it was worth.

The purpose of insurance is to put you back where you were before the loss. If the boat is worth $12k and costs 15K to fix..you should get your $12k. All equipment, including sails go with the boat. (just like you wouldn't take the new tires off of a totaled car)

So, go to work proving your value. Then get your check.

Again..forget the sails..not worth anything special in this case.

[solosailor]

If it is a Hobie 33, they can be in the $20K+ range.

Maybe during the DotCom boom..... tried to sell a boat last last 5 years?

Then the mast replacement was quoted near 20k.

That seems ridiculously high. That's more like a new Carbon rig, installed.

[Chase Lounge]

· The “General Purpose” of insurance is to put you back into a position that you were in prior to the loss occurring. Not to replace new for old. (Otherwise we would all go out and buy 10yo boats, sink them and ask for new ones.)

· As you have established, if the repair costs are at a figure that the insurance considers to be uneconomical to repair. Thus they will chose to write the boat off and pay you the ‘current market value’. The fact the sails were new is irrelevant now. The clause regarding settlement of damaged sails only relates to ‘partial’ losses. I would forget any attempts to invoke this clause. It is not applicable.

· Current Market Value (CMV) is as of the present day. Not two years ago and particularly not prior to the GFC. Boat prices in Australia have almost halved in the last 18 months. I would image this is similar in the USA.

· For you, Current Market Value is hard to determine as your boat is essentially a one off and there are little details to determine a good CMV. Also I think the assessor is possibly being lazy or out of his/her depth. Assessor will adjust all boats from a dinghy to the commercial cruiser or fishing boat. The fee they charge is about $350-$500. For your boat I would guess closer to the lower figure. Unfortunately you won’t get too much attention or work put in on your behalf.

· The Insurer is only making its decision for an assessors report. The issue is not with the insurer. It’s the assessor that will tell the insurer if the boat is repairable, is a write off and what the market value is. They just write the cheque.

· You need to put forward your argument to the assessor. Go via the Insurer. Ask for another assessor from another company. Remember there settlement figure is an ‘offer to settle’. Supply them with as many examples of ‘CMV’ as you can. A ‘boat broker or dealer’ may take the time to write you an ‘estimated’ valuation to support your argument.

· The new sails should make some impact to the CMV. Not a lot but should defiantly be taken into account. Clearly point this out.

· Careful that should you manage the get the Market Value up too high, you may find yourself in a position that the Insurer will prefer to ‘repair’ rather than pay you for the boat.

· I have personally been involved in many (200+) boat and car claims. No one is ever happy with the first offer unless the insurer and insured agreed on an ‘Agreed Value’.

· Agreed Values are usually only available for boats/cars less than 5 years old. Over this the difference between two similar items can vary dramatically.

· Consider getting one of the local boat builders whom may know your boat to write an POA (Pre Accident Assessment). This will support your claim.

· At the end of the say, you have been offered $ for settle. Reply back with a counter offer. Provide evidence to support your case. Not too much but make it clear and simple. The claims officer will probably be a 22yo kid who just needs to tick boxes to pay the claim. I doubt you will be dealing with anyone too senior. Maybe consider taking up with the claims officers team leader or manager. Most claims the insurer just want to resolve the issue. Their offer in the scheme of ‘regular’ total losses would usually be in the $000,000’s. Yours won’t even be a blip on the radar.

· Finally, should you still not be happy, look into taking the matter to a ‘Insurance dispute’s facility’ or ‘Insurance Ombudsman’. I would guess it’s similar to here as “EVERY’ insurer in Australia has to have a separate and independent claims dispute facility. It has to be free to all customers and often the Insurer is billed just because you have lodged the claim with the IDF. This threat often expedites the claims settlement.

My invoice is in the mail...

[Willy T]

That was a very informative post. Thanks. I think these guys are starting to play tricks. I had a holiday yesterday, turns out they didnt. So when i called back today, she was very very short with me and only said. I've sent you a registered letter, read it and we'll go from there okay, talk to you later. I think backed that train right up before she hung up and asked what it was. Apperently its a cheque for part of the settlement..... Dirty dirty dirty. Im assuming it comes with a release form stating that that is my settlement.

Stay away from premier marine!