18 replies to this topic

[hyerstay]

HI there,

Our club is doing our yearly check of our PHRF fleet breakdown, which is currently done not just by rating, but also taking into account displacement and other factors.

Here are our class splits from last year:

http://lcyc.info/racing/class

Our Spin A fleet is "furniture" cruiser racers, including big Beneteaus, J/122, some J/109s, up to the C&C 99.

Our Spin B fleet are lighter weight race boats, including Viper 640, Melges 20, J/80, J/92s, and several J/29s.

Our Spin C fleet are mostly cruiser or cruiser racer boats that are 120 and above in PHRF.

We also have two non-spin (Jib and Main) classes that split at about PHRF 171.

We have had two (now one) A-Cat racing, and last year it was in the JAM A fleet. It will be an odd fit in any fleet, but we want it racing!

Now I have been hoping to get enough sportboats for a sportboat fleet, but I'm not sure if we have enough, and I was thinking we could take the A-Cat with us. How does that sound?

In the meantime, I think the best fit would be with our Spin B fleet. Any thoughts?


Also, if we ever do get enough boats for a sportboat or "performance" fleet including the A-Cat, I would be tempted to try the SMS rating system instead of PHRF. I know SMS is about sportboats, but could we figure out an SMS rating for an A-Cat?

Thanks for you feedback! Maybe someday we will have a cat fleet, but not yet.

Cheers,

jason

[Fat Point Jack]

HI there,

Our club is doing our yearly check of our PHRF fleet breakdown, which is currently done not just by rating, but also taking into account displacement and other factors.

Here are our class splits from last year:

http://lcyc.info/racing/class

Our Spin A fleet is "furniture" cruiser racers, including big Beneteaus, J/122, some J/109s, up to the C&C 99.

Our Spin B fleet are lighter weight race boats, including Viper 640, Melges 20, J/80, J/92s, and several J/29s.

Our Spin C fleet are mostly cruiser or cruiser racer boats that are 120 and above in PHRF.

We also have two non-spin (Jib and Main) classes that split at about PHRF 171.

We have had two (now one) A-Cat racing, and last year it was in the JAM A fleet. It will be an odd fit in any fleet, but we want it racing!

Now I have been hoping to get enough sportboats for a sportboat fleet, but I'm not sure if we have enough, and I was thinking we could take the A-Cat with us. How does that sound?

In the meantime, I think the best fit would be with our Spin B fleet. Any thoughts?


Also, if we ever do get enough boats for a sportboat or "performance" fleet including the A-Cat, I would be tempted to try the SMS rating system instead of PHRF. I know SMS is about sportboats, but could we figure out an SMS rating for an A-Cat?

Thanks for you feedback! Maybe someday we will have a cat fleet, but not yet.

Cheers,

jason

From USSailing
Portsmouth A Cat 64.5
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Current_Tables/Multihull_Classes.htm

Portsmouth to PHRF
64.5=57
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/formulas/Table_v.htm

[hyerstay]

From USSailing
Portsmouth A Cat 64.5
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Current_Tables/Multihull_Classes.htm

Portsmouth to PHRF
64.5=57
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/formulas/Table_v.htm

Yup, we've got him at 57 for PHRF. Just trying to figure out the best fleet.

Cheers,

jason

[Marie Laveau]

Yup, we've got him at 57 for PHRF. Just trying to figure out the best fleet.

57 is waaaaaay too high. F'rinstance, PHRF for F-boats: F28R is 21; F25C is -15 (yes, NEGATIVE); F31-1D is -55

The Ports/PHRF conversion sort of works for monohulls but it's way out of line for multihulls. You'll have to see if you can find established PHRF numbers for multis and just make a good guess for the Acat. I'd suggest in the 20s, maybe even the teens.

btw, at this point, yes, Spin B looks the best fleet (sportboats)

[tucker2]

i vote leave it in jam. 18 ft no spin. give him a 51 and let him go. he probably just wants to sail with the fleet. wait til he builds the cat fleet and they all feel comfortable swirling around the 30+ footers and being blanketed to a dead stop and then bump them, up or give them their own start

[joey g]

We had an A with curved boards race in this years hospice regatta at a -10 and even then he was rated to high. I think he should have been at a -30 or -40.

Joe

[Bill Gibbs]

put him with the fleet that races for the fun of it and isn't too serious about results. Pick any rating from +60 to -30. The performance curves are sooo different that the race results will mostly be determined by wind conditions and courses.
How odd, a spin boat with no headsail.

[Speng]

If I had the A Cat i'd want to be in your B fleet to at least have the possibility of racing with boats of similar performance characteristics. I've never seen an A race with mixed fleets but there's probably no reason to think the DPN is grossly inaccurate nor any reason to think that the conversion is invalid. He's going to be racing in any case with other boats (Viper for example) that PHRF would be hard pressed to handle either. The best you can hope for is to get a mixed high perf fleet of dinghies, sportboats and multis and rate them portsmouth with wind speed based ratings. If you have a bunch of results over the past few years for the boats a scoring program (Sailwave?) can figure out some approximate portsmouth numbers. US Sailing needs to encourage more clubs to submit portsmouth results and for more than just dinghies because (IMHO) that's the best approach for higher performance boats like sportsboats and multis.

[Lost in Translation]

The challenge I've seen with mixed fleets is that high performance cats are so much faster upwind. When we do portsmouth the scores can work well around the buoys, but the pace is totally different. We are double the speed upwind and equal height. The sport boats are fast downwind but not in the same league upwind I'd think. If you have heavy air, the A will just go faster up and down. Bill is right that you may as well pick a number and have fun. Pretty amazing that an 18 foot long, 165 lb boat can rate as low as the negatives in PHRF, isn't it?

[hyerstay]

Thanks for all the great feedback! You can be assured that the A-Cat owner is part of the regatta committee and will be part of this discussion and choice.

The other issue in this is safety on the starting line with other boats. Do you see risks with an A-Cat on the line with aggressive sailors, when the A-Cat could lose momentum or go into irons and not be able to maneuver between bigger keelboats? This was one reason for being with the more mild JAM fleet last year.

Thanks,

jason

[Bsquared]

years ago we did some races with a Hobie 20 using a straight PHRF conversion; think we were at a 55. That number was actually pretty competitive in 4-8; we'd split tacks with keel boats upwind. Over here, the A-cat and the 20 rate fairly closely. in lighter air, it will be pretty close. if you see double digits of wind speed, it's all over.

[Ludicrous Speed]

A modern a will destroy a modern 70. Much depends on the generaltion of A and the sailor. But -40 is about right.

We had an A with curved boards race in this years hospice regatta at a -10 and even then he was rated to high. I think he should have been at a -30 or -40.

Joe

[A Cat USA300]

Several factors affect an A cat's speed. I am guessing at the time allowances which follow- Curved boards are worth 3- 6 sec per mile over straight downwind and the new flexy masts are worth another 6 to 12 (assuming curved boards). Skill is significant too: At the past couple North American championships the difference between first and last was between 30 and 60 seconds per mile.

I've raced a few mixed fleet events (one with a negative number handicap against a lot of PHRF and Portsmouth boats). My A has curved boards and a new flexy rig.

The reason the A cat beat the fleet by several minutes was a couple mile long beam reaches in 12 kts of wind. Until then, a rating near zero would have been reasonable. On a beam reach in 8 to 12 kts, an A with a skipper who can stay on the wire will be doing 1.5 x wind speed while the displacement boats sit.

The point that wind speed is a major factor ( up to 20 kts) is so spot on. Above the 20, the A cat will begin to back off again due to serious over power issues. And in winds under 8, the angles will be ugly even though the speeds will be high.

My advice is to pick your handicap based on skill and be willing to adjust it frequently until you get the buzz you like. Certainly don't take teh results seriously. You won't be proving anything!

Have fun,
Craig

[A Cat USA300]

There is just one rule for an A cat in traffic. THERE CAN BE NO CONTACT.

The A will die. And yes, they are quick and can get stuck in irons too easily.

The practical onus should be on the A skipper to keep his boat whole, but it depends on the other guys helping

[THOR]

agree on the o Phrf ... thats what I would give him in the b class ( sportboat ) On our lake there are some real good A guys .... they would sail away with a 0 .... they would need at least minus 40 ish :-)

thor

[Rhino 15]

Thanks for all the great feedback! You can be assured that the A-Cat owner is part of the regatta committee and will be part of this discussion and choice.

The other issue in this is safety on the starting line with other boats. Do you see risks with an A-Cat on the line with aggressive sailors, when the A-Cat could lose momentum or go into irons and not be able to maneuver between bigger keelboats? This was one reason for being with the more mild JAM fleet last year.

Thanks,

jason

Most of the good A cat sailors (acutually modern beach cats in general) will just park on the line and then sheet in and go right before the gun. In a situation with lots of dissimilar boats though, might be wise to park somewhere else and then come in and start with clear air (away from all the slugs, even at the expense of not hitting the line at the right place and time). When you are around bigger slower boats, it's most important to keep your speed up and avoid sailing their race.

A bigger issue might be sailing downwind through the fleet that started in front of you, especially with big fleets on a confined race course. If I was the A cat, I'd want to be in the first fleet to start.

[dacarls]

[

"The A will die. And yes, they are quick and can get stuck in irons too easily".
Irons? What? Even if you blow a tack by sheeting out too much in a tack (don't do this), back it down in 3 seconds and ZIPPP you are out of there.

"The practical onus should be on the A skipper to keep his boat whole".
Truer words were never spoken.

[RobLyman]

"The practical onus should be on the A skipper to keep his boat whole".
Truer words were never spoken.

I hear you have to watch out for bridges, too.

[Foghorn77]

"The practical onus should be on the A skipper to keep his boat whole".
Truer words were never spoken.

I hear you have to watch out for bridges, too.

And Starboard tack boats!