69 replies to this topic

[pete_nj]

I have to pick a suite of electronics for my under-construction 42'er. It will be used for a combination of Wednesday night racing, a couple of costal distance races per year, a week or two of costal cruising, and some daysailing. I am based in the US Northeast.

My current thought is to go with a fairly feature-rich set from Garmin or Raymarine. The racer in me has some thought about B&G, but I don't know that much about them in terms of reliability. Also, I assume it is much easier to find people who can work on the Garmin and Raymarine products.

The A/P is Raymarine as installed at the factory

Currently, I am leaning towards the following from Garmin:

12 inch plotters at the helm and nav station (7212)
full AIS transponder
wind instruments including masthead vane, and speed/depth/wind repeaters at the companionway, nav station, and master cabin
VHF - w/remote at helm
Radar

I am leaning towards the Garmin as I like their interfaces better. The new Raymarine stuff is interesting, but as of now, you can only get it in 7". I have been told that Raymarine is announcing larger versions this week in Miami, but that they wont really be available in time for my installation in June.

Any opinions about putting B&G on this boat?
The Garmin/Raymarine issue has been discussed to death. Best I can tell, it is really just a personal preference. I had Raymarine on my prior boat, and i did not really love them because of the features and interfaces, but in 6 years, there was never a single problem. I have not had Garmin marine products, but I have owned many Garmin aviation products and they are top shelf.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. I have to make my final decision in a couple of weeks. Thanks.
Pete

[Innocent Bystander]

Pete,

Give us more on what you expect. Radar in the future? AIS? Build your own polars and port them into a routing program?

B&G is top end but doesn't really do anything for you if you are looking for D/S/W/AP/plotter basics.

If you want to go with a full up interfaced sytem with wireless and an IPAD, look at this setup that is basically agnostic as to brand and focuses on interfacing the data elements.

Nav thread

I would not go with a wired system beyond basic S/D/W/AP and then pull the data to a display (PC or IPad) for navagation/AIS/performance calcs and so forth. Much more flexible and will not be limited by last year's hard coded plotter or display.

Basically, get in front of the tech rather than lock yourself into today's stuff.

[kdh]

I thought seemingly endlessly about this. Here are my thoughts.

The 12" displays are big, I think too big for the helm. I put a 12" display under the dodger where everyone in the cockpit can see it and where it's out of the weather and not an eyesore. It was a great choice.

If I were building now I'd put a Raymarine e12 (the brand new one) under the dodger and just use an iPad for a repeater at the nav station, which also serves as the instrument repeater.

I like the way the B&G instruments look, especially the analog displays, my reason for choosing them.

[dogfish]

I have to pick a suite of electronics for my under-construction 42'er. It will be used for a combination of Wednesday night racing, a couple of costal distance races per year, a week or two of costal cruising, and some daysailing. I am based in the US Northeast.

My current thought is to go with a fairly feature-rich set from Garmin or Raymarine. The racer in me has some thought about B&G, but I don't know that much about them in terms of reliability. Also, I assume it is much easier to find people who can work on the Garmin and Raymarine products.

The A/P is Raymarine as installed at the factory

Currently, I am leaning towards the following from Garmin:

12 inch plotters at the helm and nav station (7212)
full AIS transponder
wind instruments including masthead vane, and speed/depth/wind repeaters at the companionway, nav station, and master cabin
VHF - w/remote at helm
Radar

I am leaning towards the Garmin as I like their interfaces better. The new Raymarine stuff is interesting, but as of now, you can only get it in 7". I have been told that Raymarine is announcing larger versions this week in Miami, but that they wont really be available in time for my installation in June.

Any opinions about putting B&G on this boat?
The Garmin/Raymarine issue has been discussed to death. Best I can tell, it is really just a personal preference. I had Raymarine on my prior boat, and i did not really love them because of the features and interfaces, but in 6 years, there was never a single problem. I have not had Garmin marine products, but I have owned many Garmin aviation products and they are top shelf.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. I have to make my final decision in a couple of weeks. Thanks.
Pete

In your shoes (wish I were), I'd take a long hard look at the new Raymarine multi-function displays (e7 electronics and i7 instruments). Fewer holes in the boat. In my shoes I'll muddle along with my Garmin 276C and 12' less Sabre.

[DrewR]

I agree on looking at the Raymarine E7, E9, or E12 plotters. Its a pretty impressive package with radar and I think the iPad repeater option is going to sell a LOT of these units. The new I7 instruments also look pretty great.

I am waiting til the market shakes out a little before I re-do my electronics. I think Garmin will counter soon with their new stuff and the new B&G Triton line of instruments looks damn sweet as well. Too bad they are now a Navico co.

[Tucky]

I
12 inch plotters at the helm and nav station (7212)
full AIS transponder
wind instruments including masthead vane, and speed/depth/wind repeaters at the companionway, nav station, and master cabin
VHF - w/remote at helm
Radar

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. I have to make my final decision in a couple of weeks. Thanks.
Pete

I've been happy with broadband radar for coastal cruising/racing on sailboats. Not sure whether Garmin has a unit yet. Broadband has much better close resolution, uses less power, and naturally does chart overlay type of stuff. I think it is the future os small boat radar, unless your primary requirement is seeing big ships at long distances.

[Soñadora]

For my rehab, I went with the Garmin Wind/Depth/Speed package. This includes one GM10. I added a second GM10 just for display flexibility. The driving factor for me is NMEA connectivity. All the transducers as well as displays are NMEA compatible. Also considering NMEA VHF. Sure, Raymarine supports NMEA, but I'm game to give Garmin a shot and save a little $$$. I intend to ad digital radar and possibly AP at some point and Garmin seems to have a fairly comprehensive line at less cost than Raymarine.

For a chart plotter, I'm going to see how well I can do with an iPad and iNavx. I've never needed a chart plotter, but we'll be heading to Lake Superior this summer and doing some real navigation.

[pete_nj]

Thanks for all your responses.

Regarding B&G, they interest me because of the sailing features that they have that are not available from Ray/Garmin. I would love to have the ability to have laylines on my plotter and polars incorporated, etc, etc. It all comes at a cost - in some cases a very large cost. I spoke to my sailmaker who has raced on boats with this sort of capability. His opinion is that you spend more time trying to get the electronics to work properly and less time being a good sailor. Basically, his view is good in concept, not as good in practice.

The latest Raymarine stuff is cool, but probably not available in 12" in time for my build. The ipad interface is great, but I believe it is display only, so you can't program a route, etc. For cruising it will be nice to be able to control the system from below.

The idea that a 12" might be too large at the helm is interesting. I do want it at the helm as for cruising shorthanded, it is nice to not have to leave the helm to make changes.

[kdh]

The idea that a 12" might be too large at the helm is interesting. I do want it at the helm as for cruising shorthanded, it is nice to not have to leave the helm to make changes.

My sailing style is such that I'm rarely at the helm cruising shorthanded, unless I'm short tacking or checking helm balance, when I don't need the chartplotter. Mostly it's when in fog I need the chartplotter, and then I want it where everyone can see it.

And, just me, I think those huge pods are not aesthetically pleasing.

[DrewR]

Thanks for all your responses.

Regarding B&G, they interest me because of the sailing features that they have that are not available from Ray/Garmin. I would love to have the ability to have laylines on my plotter and polars incorporated, etc, etc. It all comes at a cost - in some cases a very large cost. I spoke to my sailmaker who has raced on boats with this sort of capability. His opinion is that you spend more time trying to get the electronics to work properly and less time being a good sailor. Basically, his view is good in concept, not as good in practice.

The latest Raymarine stuff is cool, but probably not available in 12" in time for my build. The ipad interface is great, but I believe it is display only, so you can't program a route, etc. For cruising it will be nice to be able to control the system from below.

The idea that a 12" might be too large at the helm is interesting. I do want it at the helm as for cruising shorthanded, it is nice to not have to leave the helm to make changes.

The Raymarine rep. at the Boston Boat Show stated the iPad interface will be bi-directional very soon. That is, they are working an an iPad/iPhone app that will allow an interactive repeater. He also said that an Android version is a possibility, but for the moment they are applying their resources to the iPad market.

[WHL]

Knowing that interfacing in a multi-brand environment isn't really an issue, I don't think there are many risks in a more distributed approach. In fact, given the rapidly growing functionality of devices like the iPhone, iPad and rich software etc.., becoming dependent on a central chart plotter seems to have more risk to me.

I recommend looking at instruments (Wind, Speed, Depth, Compass) as a separate process, with a focus on:
- readability of the face (e.g. which functions are better suited for analog displays versus digital, what data should be viewed collectively)
- ease of configuring what data is displayed and ease of switching between different "pages"
- ease of connectivity to a central backbone
- ease of bridging/connecting to 3rd party systems (e.g. protocol conversion like SeaTalk to NMEA & vice versa, )
- reliability and maintainability of sensors/transducers (e.g. using an integrated depth, speed.temp that doesn't rely on an external impeller will have a lot less fouling,less wiring, fewer parts, fewer through hulls.)
- wired versus wifi (e.g. is the reliability of a wifi wind sensor as good as a wired sensor, is the weight of wiring such an issue that wifi sensors have a real advantage etc etc..)
- is a central processor with distributed displays as fault tolerant as distributed instrument controllers, each of which having an NMEA IN/OUT? e.,g. B&G driven off a central hub, versus a Raymarine, Simrad type of approach?

With respect to instruments, my preference is to lean towards an environment with the least impact if a single component failed : i.e. go for wired sensors, connected to distributed controllers, each with NMEA IN/OUT for contingency, connected via a backbone and protocol that can be bridged to NMEA.

Navigation.
I dislike being totally dependent on chart plotters for navigation. They are often clumsy in terms of interface, slow to take advantage of new software and integration developments and prone to failure out in the cockpit. Given the rapidly development of cost effect wifi access to pc's and portable devices with excellent software, I can only think of 3 reasons why a Multi-function display is of use at or near the helm:
- Radar
- AIS
- possibly charts (which are nicely available, and perfectly readable on smaller displays like iPhone and iPads when needed at the helm or elsewhere)
Using a MFD at the helm as the primary device for instruments too is terrible at night. most of the time it's not as legible as separate instrument displays on bulkheads and the mast, it's too bright at night, and you have to be standing behind the helm to see the information.

Having a MFD at the nav station however, may have more usefulness versus having instrument repeaters as well as displays for radar, AIS etc.. With a simple PC in the network + wifi + remote desktop software, it's possible to get charts, radar and AIS anywhere on the boat.

Communications:
I like the latest developments in integrated VHF, DSC and AIS like the Standard/Horizon GX2150 that has a standalone display plus all the necessary NMEA IN/OUT ports at various speeds + Remote command mic + hailer + fog + listener. Very useful.

For going offshore or getting out of cell network range, the latest Iridium 9575 "Extreme" satphone with an optional onboard ethernet hub, give you fast and relatively cheap access to the internet and weather data via a PC, anywhere you want to cruise.

Anyway.. some food for thought..

EDIT: I'd definitely avoid Garmin's early entry into the instrument game - they are another company that likes proprietary environments and tries to be all things to all uses. There are much better tried and tested instruments with more readable and flexible displays.

[reis123]

Get some great charts, a chronometer, a compass, a sextant, The Nautical Almanac, maybe another book by a guy named Bowditch, a fixed point divider, a protractor triangle, a parallel ruler, throw in a nautical slide rule, and have at it.

Sorry, I'm kind of old school, and, actually am amazed at all the electronics that can make navigation easier and push button, well, until my batteries fail...

Backup systems, nothing like 'em!

[Soñadora]

Knowing that interfacing in a multi-brand environment isn't really an issue, I don't think there are many risks in a more distributed approach. In fact, given the rapidly growing functionality of devices like the iPhone, iPad and rich software etc.., becoming dependent on a central chart plotter seems to have more risk to me.

I recommend looking at instruments (Wind, Speed, Depth, Compass) as a separate process, with a focus on:
- readability of the face (e.g. which functions are better suited for analog displays versus digital, what data should be viewed collectively)
- ease of configuring what data is displayed and ease of switching between different "pages"
- ease of connectivity to a central backbone
- ease of bridging/connecting to 3rd party systems (e.g. protocol conversion like SeaTalk to NMEA & vice versa, )
- reliability and maintainability of sensors/transducers (e.g. using an integrated depth, speed.temp that doesn't rely on an external impeller will have a lot less fouling,less wiring, fewer parts, fewer through hulls.)
- wired versus wifi (e.g. is the reliability of a wifi wind sensor as good as a wired sensor, is the weight of wiring such an issue that wifi sensors have a real advantage etc etc..)
- is a central processor with distributed displays as fault tolerant as distributed instrument controllers, each of which having an NMEA IN/OUT? e.,g. B&G driven off a central hub, versus a Raymarine, Simrad type of approach?

With respect to instruments, my preference is to lean towards an environment with the least impact if a single component failed : i.e. go for wired sensors, connected to distributed controllers, each with NMEA IN/OUT for contingency, connected via a backbone and protocol that can be bridged to NMEA.

Navigation.
I dislike being totally dependent on chart plotters for navigation. They are often clumsy in terms of interface, slow to take advantage of new software and integration developments and prone to failure out in the cockpit. Given the rapidly development of cost effect wifi access to pc's and portable devices with excellent software, I can only think of 3 reasons why a Multi-function display is of use at or near the helm:
- Radar
- AIS
- possibly charts (which are nicely available, and perfectly readable on smaller displays like iPhone and iPads when needed at the helm or elsewhere)
Using a MFD at the helm as the primary device for instruments too is terrible at night. most of the time it's not as legible as separate instrument displays on bulkheads and the mast, it's too bright at night, and you have to be standing behind the helm to see the information.

Having a MFD at the nav station however, may have more usefulness versus having instrument repeaters as well as displays for radar, AIS etc.. With a simple PC in the network + wifi + remote desktop software, it's possible to get charts, radar and AIS anywhere on the boat.

Communications:
I like the latest developments in integrated VHF, DSC and AIS like the Standard/Horizon GX2150 that has a standalone display plus all the necessary NMEA IN/OUT ports at various speeds + Remote command mic + hailer + fog + listener. Very useful.

For going offshore or getting out of cell network range, the latest Iridium 9575 "Extreme" satphone with an optional onboard ethernet hub, give you fast and relatively cheap access to the internet and weather data via a PC, anywhere you want to cruise.

Anyway.. some food for thought..

EDIT: I'd definitely avoid Garmin's early entry into the instrument game - they are another company that likes proprietary environments and tries to be all things to all uses. There are much better tried and tested instruments with more readable and flexible displays.

Garmin 'proprietary'? You mean Raymarine, right?

Garmin GM-10 is 100% NMEA 2000 compatible. My understanding with Raymarine is that you need some sort of conversion hardware to get Seatalk to speak with NME2000.

As for Garmin being an 'early entry', they have been a mainstay in aircraft for decades.

[kdh]

Get some great charts, a chronometer, a compass, a sextant, The Nautical Almanac, maybe another book by a guy named Bowditch, a fixed point divider, a protractor triangle, a parallel ruler, throw in a nautical slide rule, and have at it.

Sorry, I'm kind of old school, and, actually am amazed at all the electronics that can make navigation easier and push button, well, until my batteries fail...

Backup systems, nothing like 'em!

Oh boy, here we go again.

[robalex117]

Definitely need a backup for built in electronics. That is what I have the iPad and iPhone for. If the GPS goes for whatever reason I have my backup at hand.

Paper charts are good to have, mostly have them just to look at, but not for serious navigation these days.

Get some great charts, a chronometer, a compass, a sextant, The Nautical Almanac, maybe another book by a guy named Bowditch, a fixed point divider, a protractor triangle, a parallel ruler, throw in a nautical slide rule, and have at it.

Sorry, I'm kind of old school, and, actually am amazed at all the electronics that can make navigation easier and push button, well, until my batteries fail...

Backup systems, nothing like 'em!

Oh boy, here we go again.

[WHL]

Garmin 'proprietary'? You mean Raymarine, right?

Garmin GM-10 is 100% NMEA 2000 compatible. My understanding with Raymarine is that you need some sort of conversion hardware to get Seatalk to speak with NME2000.

As for Garmin being an 'early entry', they have been a mainstay in aircraft for decades.

Yes.. early entry in marine instruments like wind, speed, depth. As an aside, their instrument screens are small relative to their competitors and appear cluttered, (as most of their GPS products have been) .

I know you have just bought into Garmin to "give it a shot" so I understand you may be sold on it.
.
It's more than just the network protocol to be considered. Any contending brand has NMEA 0183 and 2000 capability. I didn't say Raymarine wasn't proprietary but there are commonly available SeaTalk bridges that make Raymarine a viable contender as an instrument provider. In saying proprietary, I was thinking too about charts and access to various formats of charts, interchangeability with other devices etc...

[Cruisin Loser]

The idea that a 12" might be too large at the helm is interesting. I do want it at the helm as for cruising shorthanded, it is nice to not have to leave the helm to make changes.

My sailing style is such that I'm rarely at the helm cruising shorthanded, unless I'm short tacking or checking helm balance, when I don't need the chartplotter. Mostly it's when in fog I need the chartplotter, and then I want it where everyone can see it.

And, just me, I think those huge pods are not aesthetically pleasing.

I have the E80 at the helm, so it's not so big. I like being able to zoom in and out myself while dodging lobster pots in the fog with radar to watch out for lobster boats. My ideal solution would be an E80 at the helm and a 12" repeater under the dodger for watching AIS and radar while under autopilot at night, with the autopilot remote in pocket.

So, what kind of 42'er are you building? Inquiring minds want to know.

[pete_nj]

So, what kind of 42'er are you building? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sabre 426
Good point on the plotter under the dodger. For the amount of night cruising we might expect to do (a few per year, maybe) not as much of an issue.

[Soñadora]

Garmin 'proprietary'? You mean Raymarine, right?

Garmin GM-10 is 100% NMEA 2000 compatible. My understanding with Raymarine is that you need some sort of conversion hardware to get Seatalk to speak with NME2000.

As for Garmin being an 'early entry', they have been a mainstay in aircraft for decades.

Yes.. early entry in marine instruments like wind, speed, depth. As an aside, their instrument screens are small relative to their competitors and appear cluttered, (as most of their GPS products have been) .

I know you have just bought into Garmin to "give it a shot" so I understand you may be sold on it.
.
It's more than just the network protocol to be considered. Any contending brand has NMEA 0183 and 2000 capability. I didn't say Raymarine wasn't proprietary but there are commonly available SeaTalk bridges that make Raymarine a viable contender as an instrument provider. In saying proprietary, I was thinking too about charts and access to various formats of charts, interchangeability with other devices etc...

Good points Hung

Truth is I could have gone Raymarine for about 20% to 30% more, at least for ST70s, which considering the overall ticket for my refit isn't much. Probably the biggest appeal is that I have used Garmin stuff in the past and I've always found their it to be pretty good. We'll see.

One option I was really intrigued by is the Maretron solution. Their stuff seems to be the most 'open' of the lot.

[bljones]

If you need a 12" display at the helm, maybe it's time to get new glasses. I have a lil' ol' 5" display mounted on the bulkhead 5' from the helm and have no problem reading it.

[B.J. Porter]

Garmin 'proprietary'? You mean Raymarine, right?

Garmin GM-10 is 100% NMEA 2000 compatible. My understanding with Raymarine is that you need some sort of conversion hardware to get Seatalk to speak with NME2000.

As for Garmin being an 'early entry', they have been a mainstay in aircraft for decades.

Yes.. early entry in marine instruments like wind, speed, depth. As an aside, their instrument screens are small relative to their competitors and appear cluttered, (as most of their GPS products have been) .

I know you have just bought into Garmin to "give it a shot" so I understand you may be sold on it.
.
It's more than just the network protocol to be considered. Any contending brand has NMEA 0183 and 2000 capability. I didn't say Raymarine wasn't proprietary but there are commonly available SeaTalk bridges that make Raymarine a viable contender as an instrument provider. In saying proprietary, I was thinking too about charts and access to various formats of charts, interchangeability with other devices etc...

Good points Hung

Truth is I could have gone Raymarine for about 20% to 30% more, at least for ST70s, which considering the overall ticket for my refit isn't much. Probably the biggest appeal is that I have used Garmin stuff in the past and I've always found their it to be pretty good. We'll see.

One option I was really intrigued by is the Maretron solution. Their stuff seems to be the most 'open' of the lot.

I've got a few pieces of Maretron gear on the boat. They are good for filling in the cracks with some NMEA2000 data. I use one of their compasses, a DSM250 display, a battery monitor and I have a rudder position indicator I've not gotten around to installing. Very nice gear, though it gets expensive fast for some things. E.g. the battery monitors - each battery bank requires ONE whole monitor thing @ around $400 each. But you have a LOT of flexibilty and power.

It is my intent to add some of their alarm monitors (specifically heat & smoke in the engine room...maybe high water and CO too) to my system.

DSM-250 is the shiz, I want another one. The first is installed next to my bed in the master cabin, where I can watch wind, compass heading, anchor drag, etc. all with an alarm that wakes me up if we move too far. I want one for the cockpit (because Furuno can't seem to figure out how to use the RD-33 to pick up all the N2K data because their menus are too limited) so we can see all the non-proprietary data bouncing around the boat. Graphics are a little rough (it's not a hi def LCD monitor) but you can show all sorts of useful data.

In general I can't say enough good about N2K compared to 0183; it pains me to have to get 0183 out to talk to things like the ICom radios - I'd rather it all be on N2K. It's easy to use, easy to setup, dlexible and there are more and more things becoming available.



------------------------------

There is one big mistake I made when I chose my electronics. My intent was to go single vendor to avoid integration issues, and it turns out that with N2K, and particularly with Furuno this really wasn't a problem. Which would be OK, except that Furuno's FI-50 series instruments are, IMHO, pretty crappy and poorly designed. I got better functionality from the ST-80 Multiview that came on the boat than with Furuno's crappy multi display or with the digital tri-display.

If I was doing it all over again I would have done wind/depth/speed with a 3rd party N2K source and used better data displays, maybe Raymarine or maybe something else. But not the FI-50's since I can not get them to display information in a useful fashion.

The limitations are twofold:
- The FI-504 "Multi" lets you show a ton of different data elements. But only one at a time, there is no split screen option. The ST-80 Multiview allowed two or three rows of data.

- The FI-503 "Digital Display" has three rows of data (not changeable). But each row is limited to certain categories of data. e.g. I can not show Speed on top, Depth & related items can only go there. Speed related (Speed, COG, VMG, etc.) can ONLY go in the second row. The third row is all environmental (??) so unless you have a weather station you can't show much of any use there at all. I show water temp which my Triducer reads for me.

[pete_nj]

The idea that a 12" might be too large at the helm is interesting. I do want it at the helm as for cruising shorthanded, it is nice to not have to leave the helm to make changes.

My sailing style is such that I'm rarely at the helm cruising shorthanded, unless I'm short tacking or checking helm balance, when I don't need the chartplotter. Mostly it's when in fog I need the chartplotter, and then I want it where everyone can see it.

And, just me, I think those huge pods are not aesthetically pleasing.

I agree with you on the aesthetics, but it is a tradeoff.

As to the location, maybe it is just what we have grown accustomed to, but I like the W/S/D displays on the companionway and the chartplotter at the helm. I like it there when maneuvering in unfamiliar locations or when using radar.

[pete_nj]

Knowing that interfacing in a multi-brand environment isn't really an issue, I don't think there are many risks in a more distributed approach. In fact, given the rapidly growing functionality of devices like the iPhone, iPad and rich software etc.., becoming dependent on a central chart plotter seems to have more risk to me.

I recommend looking at instruments (Wind, Speed, Depth, Compass) as a separate process, with a focus on:
- readability of the face (e.g. which functions are better suited for analog displays versus digital, what data should be viewed collectively)
- ease of configuring what data is displayed and ease of switching between different "pages"
- ease of connectivity to a central backbone
- ease of bridging/connecting to 3rd party systems (e.g. protocol conversion like SeaTalk to NMEA & vice versa, )
- reliability and maintainability of sensors/transducers (e.g. using an integrated depth, speed.temp that doesn't rely on an external impeller will have a lot less fouling,less wiring, fewer parts, fewer through hulls.)
- wired versus wifi (e.g. is the reliability of a wifi wind sensor as good as a wired sensor, is the weight of wiring such an issue that wifi sensors have a real advantage etc etc..)
- is a central processor with distributed displays as fault tolerant as distributed instrument controllers, each of which having an NMEA IN/OUT? e.,g. B&G driven off a central hub, versus a Raymarine, Simrad type of approach?

With respect to instruments, my preference is to lean towards an environment with the least impact if a single component failed : i.e. go for wired sensors, connected to distributed controllers, each with NMEA IN/OUT for contingency, connected via a backbone and protocol that can be bridged to NMEA.

Navigation.
I dislike being totally dependent on chart plotters for navigation. They are often clumsy in terms of interface, slow to take advantage of new software and integration developments and prone to failure out in the cockpit. Given the rapidly development of cost effect wifi access to pc's and portable devices with excellent software, I can only think of 3 reasons why a Multi-function display is of use at or near the helm:
- Radar
- AIS
- possibly charts (which are nicely available, and perfectly readable on smaller displays like iPhone and iPads when needed at the helm or elsewhere)
Using a MFD at the helm as the primary device for instruments too is terrible at night. most of the time it's not as legible as separate instrument displays on bulkheads and the mast, it's too bright at night, and you have to be standing behind the helm to see the information.

Having a MFD at the nav station however, may have more usefulness versus having instrument repeaters as well as displays for radar, AIS etc.. With a simple PC in the network + wifi + remote desktop software, it's possible to get charts, radar and AIS anywhere on the boat.

Communications:
I like the latest developments in integrated VHF, DSC and AIS like the Standard/Horizon GX2150 that has a standalone display plus all the necessary NMEA IN/OUT ports at various speeds + Remote command mic + hailer + fog + listener. Very useful.

For going offshore or getting out of cell network range, the latest Iridium 9575 "Extreme" satphone with an optional onboard ethernet hub, give you fast and relatively cheap access to the internet and weather data via a PC, anywhere you want to cruise.

Anyway.. some food for thought..

EDIT: I'd definitely avoid Garmin's early entry into the instrument game - they are another company that likes proprietary environments and tries to be all things to all uses. There are much better tried and tested instruments with more readable and flexible displays.

Lots of good stuff here WHL. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

One of my thoughts on a mixed manufacturer installation is that while it should all work, as soon as there is an issue down the road, it may be difficult to get much in the way of factory support. I worry about the finger pointing exercise that would take place, say if a set of ramarine instruments are not working properly on a network with Garmin charplotters. In the end, I want to be able to talk to a local electronics guy and have any bugs worked out. I think this will be simpler with a single manufacturer.

I do like having a MFD at the helm for a number of reasons, but I do agree with your thoughts on using them at night. Sometimes it seems like you have to decide if you want to be informed (radar, depth, etc) or do you want night vision.

[pete_nj]

For my rehab, I went with the Garmin Wind/Depth/Speed package. This includes one GM10. I added a second GM10 just for display flexibility. The driving factor for me is NMEA connectivity. All the transducers as well as displays are NMEA compatible. Also considering NMEA VHF. Sure, Raymarine supports NMEA, but I'm game to give Garmin a shot and save a little $$. I intend to ad digital radar and possibly AP at some point and Garmin seems to have a fairly comprehensive line at less cost than Raymarine.

For a chart plotter, I'm going to see how well I can do with an iPad and iNavx. I've never needed a chart plotter, but we'll be heading to Lake Superior this summer and doing some real navigation.

How do you find the GM10? I have played around with one at the local Westmarine. My concern is that the display is smaller than others - maybe less readable. Also, while it has a number of modes, it would be nice if you could pick specific values that you want to see on each. I was not able to get it to do that. (maybe i just didn't try all the right functions)

[Cruisin Loser]

Sabre 426
Good point on the plotter under the dodger. For the amount of night cruising we might expect to do (a few per year, maybe) not as much of an issue.

Congrats, nice boats. Make sure you get the remote control for the AP.

Are you mounting the instruments over the companionway? Consider also a 12 volt plug there. It's easy to wire now, and very handy down the road.

Hijack!

If I were building new, I'd assume that I might become much more adventuresome with time, and have dedicated padeyes for jack lines included port and starboard, about 8' forward of the stern, as well as pad eyes in the cockpit for clipping in in rough weather offshore. You start out with a few overnights per year, pretty soon they're your favorite part of cruising and you find yourself headed for Bermuda with WHL and Boom. I'd go thru the ISAF special regs for Cat 1 and become as compliant as possible right out of the box, it's a lot easier to integrate offshore safety gear now, the stuff is unobtrusive, and it makes for a better family cruising boat.

[kdh]

Pete, I find the night setting on my multi display very good (a C120). Don't just assume it will be bad. At night I find radar IS my vision. Way better than my eyes can do.

CL, agree on the Cat 1. Some of the stuff is easy and makes a lot of sense, like pinning the mast base to the keel. And at least some forethought so it can be easily done later is well worth it.

Maybe this season I'll find a use for my autopilot remote. I'm always hopping around the boat, so going to the helm to make a course change is no big deal.

[Estar]

I'd go thru the ISAF special regs for Cat 1 and become as compliant as possible right out of the box, it's a lot easier to integrate offshore safety gear now, the stuff is unobtrusive, and it makes for a better family cruising boat.

I agree with that. I would tell Sabre that you want the boat to be ISAF cat 1 and Bermuda stability certified when launched, and organize both a cat 1 inspection and an ORR stability index calculation (and if you are doing that might as well get the full polar data which is useful in learning to sail the boat). Its not all that expensive and good correct stuff and probably easiest to get done right at the beginning.


There are a couple things I disagree with about cat 1 - just for example requiring sealed batteries is one (I like golf cart batteries), but generally it's great stuff.

On electronics - I think the autopilot is by far the most important element/component - for cruising and for single/double handed racing. Following, that I think the B&G and NKE autopilots are in a class by themselves as sailing autopilots (as opposed to general purpose motor/sail autopilots like Ray's and Furuno's). And following that, I would suggest you start with one of those autopilots, and then see what other good components that company also has - to maximize interfacing ease and limit service help complexity. We do quite often both 'steer to wind' and 'steer to waypoint', so you especially want these functions to work well and easily. As a side note, the technical discussions about mixing 'best of breed' N2K components is all fine, but when you have a problem it is easiest if all/most of your system is made by one manufacturer - otherwise each tech support team will point the finger at someone else and troubleshooting becomes more difficult. I am not suggesting you want to feel 'locked in' and buy shitty components from that one brand if much better are available and easily interfaced elsewhere, but all else equal it is better to stick with one brand.

An important factor for us is to minimize the amp draw of the system when in 'offshore mode'. We have intentionally chosen smaller more efficient screens, rather than the much sexier large high lumen screens. We also don't want to have a laptop running for important information (both amps and sensitivity to damage). Just as an example, we chose a Vesper AIS for these reasons - it has a very well designed low amp screen - it allows us to turn off our color plotter at sea and still have a good GPS position output, and it also has a nice 'anchor watch' function that we can keep on without much amps (much lower than the plotter).

I think it makes most sense to keep cockpit electronics as protected (under the dodger for instance) as possible - stuff mounted at the wheel is really quite exposed to both UV and moisture. And, we at least, and not actually steering all that much (return to importance of the autopilot) so having the electronics at the front end of the cockpit is more convenient in most cases anyway.

[kdh]

I keep reminding everyone of this but my 12" multi display and B&G instrument package and Ray autopilot draw at 12v 4-5 amps if the sail trim is balanced. Radar adds a couple of amps.

Electronics now are designed for a bigger market of powerboaters, but it's still possible to do what's needed without much power. I've never, literally never, run my engine for the sole purpose of charging batteries and I have no generator or means other than 200amps of alternator capacity to do so. I don't plug in at my slip.

All this at 4-5 amps.

[pete_nj]

Sabre 426
Good point on the plotter under the dodger. For the amount of night cruising we might expect to do (a few per year, maybe) not as much of an issue.

Congrats, nice boats. Make sure you get the remote control for the AP.

Are you mounting the instruments over the companionway? Consider also a 12 volt plug there. It's easy to wire now, and very handy down the road.

Hijack!

If I were building new, I'd assume that I might become much more adventuresome with time, and have dedicated padeyes for jack lines included port and starboard, about 8' forward of the stern, as well as pad eyes in the cockpit for clipping in in rough weather offshore. You start out with a few overnights per year, pretty soon they're your favorite part of cruising and you find yourself headed for Bermuda with WHL and Boom. I'd go thru the ISAF special regs for Cat 1 and become as compliant as possible right out of the box, it's a lot easier to integrate offshore safety gear now, the stuff is unobtrusive, and it makes for a better family cruising boat.

Absolutely. Already in the plan and paid for!

[treef]

Pete: I set up at 37' boat three years ago and refined it since. WHL makes some excellent points about not using a chartplotter.

I have a "black box" GPS which provides data to a PC running Expedition. The PC is also a "black box" with a separate monitor so the monitor - the biggest power draw - can be turned off. Keyboard and mouse are both disposable with spares on board. This setup completey replaces a chartplotter. Radar and AIS can also be interfaced with Expedition. And if some other software package comes out that is better, you can switch without getting new hardware.

This year I am going to try an iPad running as a remote desktop for the PC at the nav table. In theory then the iPad can run Expedition in the cockpit. Its also disposable, in the sense that if it goes overhoard, for the price of the pod that holds a second helm chartplotter, plus the second charplotter itself, I can buy a lot of iPads. Plus the iPad can move around deck with you; if the boat is under A/P. its very unlikely you will be behind the helm.

Sailing instruments and autopilot are NKE. They are a better value than B&G. PM BobC on these forums for more NKE info. Wireless remote for the autopilot - can't underestimate the convenienve of a remote for the autopilot. Also NKE makes an integrated man-overhoard system.

Have fun with your new build!

Treef

[Total Slacker]

I think Estar is right on point. I want simplicity, reliability, and low power draw. Here are some thoughts:

VHF radio - must work when you need it - ICOM 504. I wouldn't consider anything else. Note that I currently have the SH GX2100 with AIS rcvr. It's been in the shop 3 times, has poor sensitivity. I can't recommend it and wish I had the ICOM. Dedicated Garmin GPS 17x antenna.
Autopilot - NKE if you can afford it. I run a Raymarine X-5 and it works, but I need to carry many spare components. I wish I had the NKE after all the X-5 failures I've experienced.
Wind instrument - NKE to go with your NKE autopilot. If you are sticking with your Raymarine AP, then get the Raymarine wind so you can use the wind mode to drive upwind. Accuracy and calibration of the raymarine instrument is weak, so the data will be rough, and not accurate to feed Expedition software
Speed, depth, water temp - I have the raymarine tridata. It's OK, but the speed is not particularly accurate and I can't calibrate it to get more accurate. Therefore would provide a poor feed to Expedition or other sailing software. GPS speed is fine for me anyway. Maybe just get a ProStart or something GPS based unless you have to have a depth sounder for anchoring.
Chartplotter - I would get one in addition to a wifi hub for a PC or iPad for redundancy & reliability. The bigger the screen the higher the power draw & more likely something will hit it. I like my 5" screen just fine. I don't like them mounted at the helm due to exposure, and find them more useful by the companionway as the AP is usually driving.
AIS - I would go with a transponder, not just receiver. Watchmate 850 for sure if I spent much time offshore, but otherwise just a black box feed to your MFD/Chartplotter/wifi hub. I would also want a silent mode.
Radar - I would skip this to reduce power and complexity, unless you sail at night in the tropics & want to see squalls coming.

Also, papercharts and a hand bearing compass!

Slacker

[Shoalcove]

I'm not sure how much fog they get where you sail but I like my Radar. Sure,it is only an old CRT Raymarine with basic controls but it sure is nice when the stuff we get in Eastern Canada rolls in. I use it to find the front of my boat. A chartplotter will tell you where the channel mark is but the Radar will tell you who else is in the channel. I'm not saying everyone needs one but they do have value depending on how and where you sail.
As someone with a mish-mash of older electronics, I enjoy reading the expertise here and learning about all the options as I slowly upgrade.
Best regards,
Shoal

[kdh]

Pete, I assume NJ means New Jersey? I could not do without radar around here. Well, I could, and have, but sailing's less enjoyable in the fog without it.

[pete_nj]

I'd go thru the ISAF special regs for Cat 1 and become as compliant as possible right out of the box, it's a lot easier to integrate offshore safety gear now, the stuff is unobtrusive, and it makes for a better family cruising boat.

I agree with that. I would tell Sabre that you want the boat to be ISAF cat 1 and Bermuda stability certified when launched, and organize both a cat 1 inspection and an ORR stability index calculation (and if you are doing that might as well get the full polar data which is useful in learning to sail the boat). Its not all that expensive and good correct stuff and probably easiest to get done right at the beginning.


There are a couple things I disagree with about cat 1 - just for example requiring sealed batteries is one (I like golf cart batteries), but generally it's great stuff.

On electronics - I think the autopilot is by far the most important element/component - for cruising and for single/double handed racing. Following, that I think the B&G and NKE autopilots are in a class by themselves as sailing autopilots (as opposed to general purpose motor/sail autopilots like Ray's and Furuno's). And following that, I would suggest you start with one of those autopilots, and then see what other good components that company also has - to maximize interfacing ease and limit service help complexity. We do quite often both 'steer to wind' and 'steer to waypoint', so you especially want these functions to work well and easily. As a side note, the technical discussions about mixing 'best of breed' N2K components is all fine, but when you have a problem it is easiest if all/most of your system is made by one manufacturer - otherwise each tech support team will point the finger at someone else and troubleshooting becomes more difficult. I am not suggesting you want to feel 'locked in' and buy shitty components from that one brand if much better are available and easily interfaced elsewhere, but all else equal it is better to stick with one brand.

An important factor for us is to minimize the amp draw of the system when in 'offshore mode'. We have intentionally chosen smaller more efficient screens, rather than the much sexier large high lumen screens. We also don't want to have a laptop running for important information (both amps and sensitivity to damage). Just as an example, we chose a Vesper AIS for these reasons - it has a very well designed low amp screen - it allows us to turn off our color plotter at sea and still have a good GPS position output, and it also has a nice 'anchor watch' function that we can keep on without much amps (much lower than the plotter).

I think it makes most sense to keep cockpit electronics as protected (under the dodger for instance) as possible - stuff mounted at the wheel is really quite exposed to both UV and moisture. And, we at least, and not actually steering all that much (return to importance of the autopilot) so having the electronics at the front end of the cockpit is more convenient in most cases anyway.

This is really good advice. I had not thought about all of the cat 1 and Bermuda issues, but many things are simpler to do during construction than later. I have had padeyes installed for jacklines and the lifelines are appropriate. I don't know all of the other items for cat 1. I assume i can get this info on the ISAF website.

Regarding autopilot, if I want it factory installed (and this is much simpler) my only choice is Raymarine. I could go with no factory installation, but that will greatly complicate the work required once the boat is delivered.

As our cruising is costal and a good portion of our sailing is racing (where there is someone at the helm at all times) we will put a chartplotter at the helm. It is a tougher environment, but 6 years with a C80 on my prior boat was not an issue at all.

If we were doing real offshore work, we would have to consider the amp draw. I think that there would be some serious consideration. Since that is not our current need, I won't worry too much about it. We might have to make some changes if we were going to do any serious offshore work.

[pete_nj]

Pete: I set up at 37' boat three years ago and refined it since. WHL makes some excellent points about not using a chartplotter.

I have a "black box" GPS which provides data to a PC running Expedition. The PC is also a "black box" with a separate monitor so the monitor - the biggest power draw - can be turned off. Keyboard and mouse are both disposable with spares on board. This setup completey replaces a chartplotter. Radar and AIS can also be interfaced with Expedition. And if some other software package comes out that is better, you can switch without getting new hardware.

This year I am going to try an iPad running as a remote desktop for the PC at the nav table. In theory then the iPad can run Expedition in the cockpit. Its also disposable, in the sense that if it goes overhoard, for the price of the pod that holds a second helm chartplotter, plus the second charplotter itself, I can buy a lot of iPads. Plus the iPad can move around deck with you; if the boat is under A/P. its very unlikely you will be behind the helm.

Sailing instruments and autopilot are NKE. They are a better value than B&G. PM BobC on these forums for more NKE info. Wireless remote for the autopilot - can't underestimate the convenienve of a remote for the autopilot. Also NKE makes an integrated man-overhoard system.

Have fun with your new build!

Treef

Treef - I totally get your view here. I think if I had more time, I would likely want to do as you have done. (I am a software person by profession and your setup is intriguing) The issue for me is simply time. It is very easy to just have an integrated set of electronics installed. They will all work day 1. That being said, I do like the idea of having some real sailing software that could handle laylines, polars, etc. At some point, I will look further into this.

[WHL]

...........snip................GPS speed is fine for me anyway. ..............snip
Slacker

In areas with lots of current, I like to have boat speed and heading displayed adjacent to SOG & COG to see how the current is affecting course, and to see when we're in adverse or positive current. I also like to have water temp too, so you can see how you are progressing or finding streams like the Gulf Stream.

[pete_nj]

I think Estar is right on point. I want simplicity, reliability, and low power draw. Here are some thoughts:

VHF radio - must work when you need it - ICOM 504. I wouldn't consider anything else. Note that I currently have the SH GX2100 with AIS rcvr. It's been in the shop 3 times, has poor sensitivity. I can't recommend it and wish I had the ICOM. Dedicated Garmin GPS 17x antenna.
Autopilot - NKE if you can afford it. I run a Raymarine X-5 and it works, but I need to carry many spare components. I wish I had the NKE after all the X-5 failures I've experienced.
Wind instrument - NKE to go with your NKE autopilot. If you are sticking with your Raymarine AP, then get the Raymarine wind so you can use the wind mode to drive upwind. Accuracy and calibration of the raymarine instrument is weak, so the data will be rough, and not accurate to feed Expedition software
Speed, depth, water temp - I have the raymarine tridata. It's OK, but the speed is not particularly accurate and I can't calibrate it to get more accurate. Therefore would provide a poor feed to Expedition or other sailing software. GPS speed is fine for me anyway. Maybe just get a ProStart or something GPS based unless you have to have a depth sounder for anchoring.
Chartplotter - I would get one in addition to a wifi hub for a PC or iPad for redundancy & reliability. The bigger the screen the higher the power draw & more likely something will hit it. I like my 5" screen just fine. I don't like them mounted at the helm due to exposure, and find them more useful by the companionway as the AP is usually driving.
AIS - I would go with a transponder, not just receiver. Watchmate 850 for sure if I spent much time offshore, but otherwise just a black box feed to your MFD/Chartplotter/wifi hub. I would also want a silent mode.
Radar - I would skip this to reduce power and complexity, unless you sail at night in the tropics & want to see squalls coming.

Also, papercharts and a hand bearing compass!

Slacker

I share your view on the Raymarine WSD issues. For some time I was trying to figure out why my prior boat seemed to sail better on port than starboard. This was before I realized that Raymarine instruments were not particularly accurate and it was all instrument error. I will have to look more at the NKE offerings as many here have mentioned them. One thing that is very nice about ray and garmin is that they are so common that it is easy to get repairs almost anywhere.

[pete_nj]

Pete, I assume NJ means New Jersey? I could not do without radar around here. Well, I could, and have, but sailing's less enjoyable in the fog without it.

kdh - yes New Jersey. All my sailing is in the Northeast US. Radar is a must!

[WHL]

[.....snip...........
That being said, I do like the idea of having some real sailing software that could handle laylines, polars, etc. At some point, I will look further into this.

Expedition is excellent for just about anything you need for charting, weather routing, planning, monitoring trends with various strip charts, and very configurable with respect to NMEA sentence selection in & out, and through which virtual comm port. Virtual comm ports are essential when running many apps all looking for NMEA data over a single USB or serial connection. There are lots of packages that can provide the virtual ports so that one data stream can be replicated over many others. e.g. split real port 5 into port 10, 11.,12. 13 etc.... so you can run nav looking for NMEA on 10, an email & satphone app looking for position on comm 11, a suite of weather apps looking for position on comm 12 to plot on gribs, weather fax images etc...

The B&G Zeus system is pretty impressive too in terms of navigation features

[curm]

I agree with smaller screens. Aside from the power draw, the huge screens take your focus away from sailing the boat. I have two Garmin 4212s (I don't trust the durability of touchscreens). Either one can display the charplotter, the radar, or both (with radar overlay). Also AIS. One unit is at the helm, another beneath the dodger. I think it's crazy to put chartplotters and radar at the nav station. If you need radar, are you going to be down in the cabin? Nav stations are good for SSB, laptops and other assorted crap, not for radar.

I like Garmin for ease of use. I find the Garmin products to be much more intuitive than Raymarine. But that's my personal preference. From a technical standpoint, all of the major manufacturers seem to be adequate.

[kdh]

I agree with smaller screens. Aside from the power draw, the huge screens take your focus away from sailing the boat. I have two Garmin 4212s (I don't trust the durability of touchscreens). Either one can display the charplotter, the radar, or both (with radar overlay). Also AIS. One unit is at the helm, another beneath the dodger. I think it's crazy to put chartplotters and radar at the nav station. If you need radar, are you going to be down in the cabin? Nav stations are good for SSB, laptops and other assorted crap, not for radar.

I like Garmin for ease of use. I find the Garmin products to be much more intuitive than Raymarine. But that's my personal preference. From a technical standpoint, all of the major manufacturers seem to be adequate.

I agree with this, but I have a C80 at the NAV station I use for route planning. In our area currents are always a concern, and the overlayed current arrows that the Raymarine gives are really useful (I also display COG and SOG on the companionway instruments as Hung suggests). Also a good place to monitor wind speed, depth, set an anchor alarm when below. If I networked my PC to the instruments I wouldn't need it though.

[pete_nj]

[.....snip...........
That being said, I do like the idea of having some real sailing software that could handle laylines, polars, etc. At some point, I will look further into this.

Expedition is excellent for just about anything you need for charting, weather routing, planning, monitoring trends with various strip charts, and very configurable with respect to NMEA sentence selection in & out, and through which virtual comm port. Virtual comm ports are essential when running many apps all looking for NMEA data over a single USB or serial connection. There are lots of packages that can provide the virtual ports so that one data stream can be replicated over many others. e.g. split real port 5 into port 10, 11.,12. 13 etc.... so you can run nav looking for NMEA on 10, an email & satphone app looking for position on comm 11, a suite of weather apps looking for position on comm 12 to plot on gribs, weather fax images etc...

The B&G Zeus system is pretty impressive too in terms of navigation features

I've looked at B&G Zues and it does seem to have just about everything you could want. It comes with a couple of tradeoffs:
1. Harder to get knowledgeable people for repair/install
2. Once you configure it for all of the really cool features - polars, etc, it is much more expensive.

That being said, it is clearly much more appropriate for sailing applications

[hyerstay]

Software/network guy here. If you are thinking about a wireless system for your boat, I really like the Cradlepoint series of routers, particularly the MBR-1400:

http://www.cradlepoi...roadband-router

This device or others like it would let you have a consistent network on your boat, and allow you to connect your network to the world with either a mobile broadband card (USB or ExpressCard), or use the Wifi as WAN feature to connect to a club or marina network, or tethering through another device. It supports failover from one WAN interface to another, so when out of range of your club or marina network, it will automatically switch to the mobile broadband device.

Also, the 750ft range is very nice to have, if mooring, anchoring or docking a ways from the club or marina access point.

Cheers,

jason

[nortun]

Perhaps you should consider Navslide's mounting solutions? Here shown on a bavaria 36 cruiser the display can be turned when seeking shelter under the dodger.

[curm]

In our area currents are always a concern, and the overlayed current arrows that the Raymarine gives are really useful (I also display COG and SOG on the companionway instruments as Hung suggests).

Currents matter where I sail as well. I use Rosepoint on my laptop at the nav station for route planning. It also displays current arrows. Then I doublecheck using Eldridge, just to make sure that the two sources agree. I wish I could get an electronic copy of Eldridge.

[Tige]

Just out of curiosity has anyone tried an external gps like the one from Bad Elf with an iPad?

[PNW Matt B]

Just out of curiosity has anyone tried an external gps like the one from Bad Elf with an iPad?

Sons had a pretty decent experience with it, check out this thread.

[CaptKen]

You might want to get the Active Captain newletter. They are going through the same process and went all Garmin. It is easier to read than for me to explain. Drop a note to: news@activecaptain.com and ask either to get on the mailing list or copies of the newletters detailing their experience.

[SailAR]

>>> aCappella's Helm - The Selection >>>

We're lucky to live in a time when there are so many good choices for
boating electronics. We outlined our requirements in a newsletter a
few weeks ago. If you missed it you can see it here:
https://activecaptai.../2012-01-25.php

Given our desire for a touchscreen, openness, integration, and
ease-of-use, the journey to replace our boat's navigation systems
narrowed our selection to three manufacturers: Furuno, Navico/Simrad,
and Garmin. We believe that any one would have been a good solution.
But in the end, for us, Garmin was the best choice from our analysis.

So why Garmin?

First and foremost, Garmin is the only company that provides a touch-
screen-only product. The 5000 and 7000 series MFD's have an ON/OFF
button and that's it. That leaves the maximum size possible for the
display screen. It also means that the entire user-interface can change
and be updated with maximum flexibility. We believe that user-interfaces
without hard buttons are easier to use and more intuitive. Others may
not agree with that - that's OK. But this is a core belief of ours and
it's what we wanted at our helm.

Second, the integration of all components from Garmin is total and
exceptional. A knock-out example is the way AIS, the MFD, and the VHF
radio are all tied together. If you see an AIS target that you are
concerned about, touch it. That produces a menu that allows you to
get additional information, track the target, or call them on the VHF.
The VHF calling is unique. It connects the VHF with the AIS target
through the transmitted MMSI number and initiates a DSC call on the
VHF - no typing numbers in the middle of the night - it just makes
the call. The result is an alarm that goes off on the ship that will
get their attention. This is so useful at night when assessing issues
with ships. It isn't something to use casually but when you need it,
the integration provides a better system that is simple to use.

Third, the ease of use of the Garmin components is incredible. Jeff
knew how to use every component before the boxes arrived. Karen still
hasn't read a manual and yet was able to do very advanced things like
access 3D mode, track MARPA radar targets, and create multi-pane
displays showing charts, video, and depth sounder displays.

Fourth, open standards. Everything is based on NMEA 2000 and Ethernet.
The Ethernet connects to our normal WiFi router allowing interesting
capabilities. Garmin's new iPad product takes advantage of this
capability. As a simple example, our previous system had a rudder
indicator. We became quite spoiled by this display and liked always
knowing the exact position of our rudders. But it turns out that Garmin
doesn't build a rudder indicator. Drats. But that's where NMEA 2000
fits. We bought a Simrad N2K rudder indicator, plugged it in, and now
the Garmin autopilot and all instrument displays can show the rudder
position with a beautiful graphic rudder display. Adding sensors for
fuel tanks, water tanks, engine monitoring, or whatever, will integrate
as easily and be part of the total integrated system even though Garmin
might not produce a specific sensor we'd like.

There's much more to come about our system and it's operation. We
intend to produce many screenshots and videos when we're heading back
north in the Spring showing many of the capabilities of this latest
generation of marine electronics. Right now it is all installed. The
most difficult part of the installation was the routing of cabling to
3 external video cameras that display on the MFD's. It all worked the
first time everything was powered up. Much of that is due to ACM
Electronics in Jacksonville, who did a fantastic job of installing
everything.

Garmin has our highest recommendation, so much so, that we've switched
our own boat to their products. There are other very high quality
manufacturers and they might be better for other boats and other
requirements. In the meantime, we don't think you can go wrong by using
Garmin onboard.

[PNW Matt B]

It doesn't necessarily invalidate anything they said - but ActiveCaptain is in a corporate partnership with Garmin.

[SailAR]

Fair point. I wasn't supporting their thesis, just providing the content.

That said, my last boat had all Garmin stuff (dual station) except for the autopilot, and I have to say I liked them a lot better than the older Raymarine stuff on my current boat which is in various stages of not working.

[rule69]

FWIW, on dark nights I find large backlit screens are almost all much too bright. When it is really dark I keep my radar, ais and computers covered when I'm not looking at them. The sailing displays (B&G Hydra 2000 in my case) and my Furuno GP-31 have a dim enough settings that I can tolerate them. Setting up a helm station I think it's worth it to get small displays that are not near critical sight lines for any info that you'll want at night.

[pete_nj]

>>> aCappella's Helm - The Selection >>>

We're lucky to live in a time when there are so many good choices for
boating electronics. We outlined our requirements in a newsletter a
few weeks ago. If you missed it you can see it here:
https://activecaptai.../2012-01-25.php

Given our desire for a touchscreen, openness, integration, and
ease-of-use, the journey to replace our boat's navigation systems
narrowed our selection to three manufacturers: Furuno, Navico/Simrad,
and Garmin. We believe that any one would have been a good solution.
But in the end, for us, Garmin was the best choice from our analysis.

So why Garmin?

First and foremost, Garmin is the only company that provides a touch-
screen-only product. The 5000 and 7000 series MFD's have an ON/OFF
button and that's it. That leaves the maximum size possible for the
display screen. It also means that the entire user-interface can change
and be updated with maximum flexibility. We believe that user-interfaces
without hard buttons are easier to use and more intuitive. Others may
not agree with that - that's OK. But this is a core belief of ours and
it's what we wanted at our helm.

Second, the integration of all components from Garmin is total and
exceptional. A knock-out example is the way AIS, the MFD, and the VHF
radio are all tied together. If you see an AIS target that you are
concerned about, touch it. That produces a menu that allows you to
get additional information, track the target, or call them on the VHF.
The VHF calling is unique. It connects the VHF with the AIS target
through the transmitted MMSI number and initiates a DSC call on the
VHF - no typing numbers in the middle of the night - it just makes
the call. The result is an alarm that goes off on the ship that will
get their attention. This is so useful at night when assessing issues
with ships. It isn't something to use casually but when you need it,
the integration provides a better system that is simple to use.

Third, the ease of use of the Garmin components is incredible. Jeff
knew how to use every component before the boxes arrived. Karen still
hasn't read a manual and yet was able to do very advanced things like
access 3D mode, track MARPA radar targets, and create multi-pane
displays showing charts, video, and depth sounder displays.

Fourth, open standards. Everything is based on NMEA 2000 and Ethernet.
The Ethernet connects to our normal WiFi router allowing interesting
capabilities. Garmin's new iPad product takes advantage of this
capability. As a simple example, our previous system had a rudder
indicator. We became quite spoiled by this display and liked always
knowing the exact position of our rudders. But it turns out that Garmin
doesn't build a rudder indicator. Drats. But that's where NMEA 2000
fits. We bought a Simrad N2K rudder indicator, plugged it in, and now
the Garmin autopilot and all instrument displays can show the rudder
position with a beautiful graphic rudder display. Adding sensors for
fuel tanks, water tanks, engine monitoring, or whatever, will integrate
as easily and be part of the total integrated system even though Garmin
might not produce a specific sensor we'd like.

There's much more to come about our system and it's operation. We
intend to produce many screenshots and videos when we're heading back
north in the Spring showing many of the capabilities of this latest
generation of marine electronics. Right now it is all installed. The
most difficult part of the installation was the routing of cabling to
3 external video cameras that display on the MFD's. It all worked the
first time everything was powered up. Much of that is due to ACM
Electronics in Jacksonville, who did a fantastic job of installing
everything.

Garmin has our highest recommendation, so much so, that we've switched
our own boat to their products. There are other very high quality
manufacturers and they might be better for other boats and other
requirements. In the meantime, we don't think you can go wrong by using
Garmin onboard.

SailAR - I have been leaning towards Garmin as well for many of the same reasons that you mention.

Interestingly, the new Raymarine e125 that was announced at Miami last week creates some interesting decisions. It should have many of the features that you mention. Price is an issue as well. The new 12 inch Raymarine is available for $2900 while the Garmin is almost 5k. Since I will be getting two of them, this is a 4k difference. Enough to cause some thought. I will be interested to see if the more capable competition causes Garmin to be more price competitive. As I have a few months before my boat will be ready for commissioning, I will get to wait and see.

[rclouise]

Good info on thread. On our new boat being built will most likely go with Garmin, 4210 Chart plotters, one in dog house, one at helm, Garmin broadband radar, Garmin AIS class B receive and send. Reason, I was satisfied with Grmin chart plotters on last boat they did fine across the Pacific. Another reason is being all the same brand everything fits together and talks to each other with out jumping through hoops, just plug it in no strange software to add. This could change in next year with updates in equipment. Will go with NKE Auto pilot, wind and depth, will not be joined with Garmin will be on seperate screen at helm. Surprised more North Americans are not familiar with NKE, truly great stuff but is expensive. Not overly happy with how things have gone in marine electronics now that we have one screen for all info but I'll get used to it and just have to pray that all Garmin products are good. I'll miss my Furuno Radar.

[SailAR]

SailAR - I have been leaning towards Garmin as well for many of the same reasons that you mention.

Interestingly, the new Raymarine e125 that was announced at Miami last week creates some interesting decisions. It should have many of the features that you mention. Price is an issue as well. The new 12 inch Raymarine is available for $2900 while the Garmin is almost 5k. Since I will be getting two of them, this is a 4k difference. Enough to cause some thought. I will be interested to see if the more capable competition causes Garmin to be more price competitive. As I have a few months before my boat will be ready for commissioning, I will get to wait and see.

I'm quite interested in this as I need to do something about my Raymarine, so I am watching with great interest! The radar works perfectly, but the chartplotters are iffy and some of the ST60's are on their last legs.

In terms of price, a Garmin 5212 is quoted by West at ~$3000. I haven't research the difference between the 5212, the 7212 and the new Raymarines, so am admittedly uninformed at the moment. Last boat had dual 4212s which worked flawlessly for 4 years. It also pains me to spend $3000 on an MFD when my iPad does so much with a $50 app!

[pete_nj]

I'm quite interested in this as I need to do something about my Raymarine, so I am watching with great interest! The radar works perfectly, but the chartplotters are iffy and some of the ST60's are on their last legs.

In terms of price, a Garmin 5212 is quoted by West at ~$3000. I haven't research the difference between the 5212, the 7212 and the new Raymarines, so am admittedly uninformed at the moment. Last boat had dual 4212s which worked flawlessly for 4 years. It also pains me to spend $3000 on an MFD when my iPad does so much with a $50 app!

I will post back as I learn more.
I spoke to a retailer who said that the 7212 is price controlled by Garmin. The assumption is that if they perceive that the market is moving towards the less expensive E125, then they will lift this restriction. This would presumably make it more price competitive.

The 5212 and 7212 look identical. One major difference may be performance. The 7212, I believe, has a faster processor. I imagine that there are feature differences as well.

I have a couple of months before I need to make a final decision, so I will be watching the market closely. Raymarine is claiming that the e125 will start shipping at the end of March.

[kdh]

I'm quite interested in this as I need to do something about my Raymarine, so I am watching with great interest! The radar works perfectly, but the chartplotters are iffy and some of the ST60's are on their last legs.

SailAR, The new displays are incompatible with the old radomes as they are now all digital, that is, use ethernet and seatalk^hs to communicate with the displays.

[SailAR]

I'm quite interested in this as I need to do something about my Raymarine, so I am watching with great interest! The radar works perfectly, but the chartplotters are iffy and some of the ST60's are on their last legs.

SailAR, The new displays are incompatible with the old radomes as they are now all digital, that is, use ethernet and seatalk^hs to communicate with the displays.

Thanks. I understand that. More just frustrated as my experience will all of the manufacturers is that around the 5 year point, they all start failing in some way.. each differently. I have had B&Gs, Ockams, Raymarine, KVH and all had problems over time. In my current situation, the radar is the only thing I can speak positively of the Raymarine setup.

[kdh]

In our area currents are always a concern, and the overlayed current arrows that the Raymarine gives are really useful (I also display COG and SOG on the companionway instruments as Hung suggests).

Currents matter where I sail as well. I use Rosepoint on my laptop at the nav station for route planning. It also displays current arrows. Then I doublecheck using Eldridge, just to make sure that the two sources agree. I wish I could get an electronic copy of Eldridge.

curm, We sail out of Narragansett Bay, so i'm sure we've crossed wakes. I'll keep buying an Eldridge as long as Ridge and Linda or younger family members publish it, but mainly for old times' sake. It looks great on the boat's bookshelf and I love the non-tidal information and old warnings of "The Graveyard" and such.

[kdh]

I'm quite interested in this as I need to do something about my Raymarine, so I am watching with great interest! The radar works perfectly, but the chartplotters are iffy and some of the ST60's are on their last legs.

SailAR, The new displays are incompatible with the old radomes as they are now all digital, that is, use ethernet and seatalk^hs to communicate with the displays.

Thanks. I understand that. More just frustrated as my experience will all of the manufacturers is that around the 5 year point, they all start failing in some way.. each differently. I have had B&Gs, Ockams, Raymarine, KVH and all had problems over time. In my current situation, the radar is the only think I can speak positively of the Raymarine setup.

My Raymarine and B&G setup is thoroughly obsolete but still does the job. Unfortunately, if anything breaks anything new is incompatible with the old that I have. When I built 6 years ago I just missed NMEA 2000 and digital radar.

[pete_nj]

My Raymarine and B&G setup is thoroughly obsolete but still does the job. Unfortunately, if anything breaks anything new is incompatible with the old that I have. When I built 6 years ago I just missed NMEA 2000 and digital radar.

This is a good argument for putting the latest tech on your boat if you intend to own it for some time. Six years is probably pretty good in terms of remaining current. I doubt the latest releases from any manufacturer today will still be fully compatible and current six years from now.

[Innocent Bystander]

That's what drives me to recommend an open system approach with maybe instruments talking to each other but all data going to displays via a buss.

Setting does or a new toy comes along? Just integrate it.

Harder initial setup but I think benefits down the line.

[pete_nj]

IB - I think you are completely correct. For me, the tradeoff of the more complex install is not worth it. If I had the time, I would do it all myself and take this sort of approach. Since I don't, I want a fairly straightforward install. This likely means picking one manufacturer and dealing with all of the implied tradeoffs. This way, when something is not working properly, it is not a finger pointing party.

That's what drives me to recommend an open system approach with maybe instruments talking to each other but all data going to displays via a buss.

Setting does or a new toy comes along? Just integrate it.

Harder initial setup but I think benefits down the line.

[curm]

One item that has not been discussed is a multiplexer, which allows your laptop to exchange NMEA information with your GPS, autopilot, etc. You can get a cheap USB GPS for your laptop, but there is no guarantee that the position data is precisely the same as what the GPS is reporting. You can then use your laptop for route planning, and send the rote to your gps and autopilot.

BTW, in my next life all of this stuff is going to be wirelessly networked instead of having to drill holes and worry about corroded wires.

[rule69]

You can then use your laptop for route planning, and send the rote to your gps and autopilot.

I have disabled this function completely on my boat. My B&G can be set to steer to a course or the wind and I use both but I never send it to a waypoint or along a route. I use the GPS to check xte and so on but having auto try to figure out when I've arrived and when and how to change course using some algorithm I don't control seems sure to be a problem at some point. If I'm not aware enough to fiddle with auto I'm not keeping a proper watch or in control of my navigation anyway. This is probably less of an issue for motorboats but even so I kind of hate the idea of having a computer steer my boat along a complex course using its own logic.

[kdh]

I believe that these days the low bandwidth stuff goes on a NMEA 2000 bus and the high bandwidth signals--display, sonar, and radar data, are proprietary ethernet, with Raymarine now also broadcasting everything over wifi, using a proprietary protocol.

Even in 2005 mixing B&G and Raymarine was easy as I just used NMEA 0183 to bridge B&G's and Raymarine's proprietary low bandwidth networks. Now NMEA 2000 makes the bridge unnecessary and the low bandwidth piece as easy as it gets, even with multiple vendors.

[SailAR]

So, Pete... how's the build going? what did you do for electronics?

I have to pick a suite of electronics for my under-construction 42'er. It will be used for a combination of Wednesday night racing, a couple of costal distance races per year, a week or two of costal cruising, and some daysailing. I am based in the US Northeast.

My current thought is to go with a fairly feature-rich set from Garmin or Raymarine. The racer in me has some thought about B&G, but I don't know that much about them in terms of reliability. Also, I assume it is much easier to find people who can work on the Garmin and Raymarine products.

The A/P is Raymarine as installed at the factory

Currently, I am leaning towards the following from Garmin:

12 inch plotters at the helm and nav station (7212)
full AIS transponder
wind instruments including masthead vane, and speed/depth/wind repeaters at the companionway, nav station, and master cabin
VHF - w/remote at helm
Radar

I am leaning towards the Garmin as I like their interfaces better. The new Raymarine stuff is interesting, but as of now, you can only get it in 7". I have been told that Raymarine is announcing larger versions this week in Miami, but that they wont really be available in time for my installation in June.

Any opinions about putting B&G on this boat?
The Garmin/Raymarine issue has been discussed to death. Best I can tell, it is really just a personal preference. I had Raymarine on my prior boat, and i did not really love them because of the features and interfaces, but in 6 years, there was never a single problem. I have not had Garmin marine products, but I have owned many Garmin aviation products and they are top shelf.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. I have to make my final decision in a couple of weeks. Thanks.
Pete

[vtsail]

Pete,
Just read the thread for the first time. I am out of Philly and my primary racing ride is a Sabre 426. If you want any info or helpful tips let me know, and I'll hook you up with our numbers and set up.

[pete_nj]

Thanks SailAR - things are going well. The boat has been sailing for about 3 weeks. There are still some odds and ends left, but mostly all is done. I can't say enough about the folks at Sabre and the people at Sandy Hook Yacht Sales. We were very particular about how the boat was rigged so that it could be set up for serious racing or comfortable cruising. We were really able to achieve this goal and all involved really worked hard to make sure that we got the boat just as we wanted it. We also ended up going with a set of 3DLs from North Sails, and I had a really good experience with Ron from their Manasquan loft. We did our first race last week and I guess it is a good sign that people were complaining about our rating before we even got back to the dock.

In terms of electronics, we decided that since we had no choice but to go with a Raymarine a/p, we did a full Raymarine install. 2 e127s, 4 i70s, AIS transceiver, radar. The i70s are really fantastic instruments. They are large, easily readable, and they are very easily programmed to do nearly anything. The e127s are much better than prior Raymarine interfaces, but they still suffer from some of the user-interface clumsiness of the prior generation plotters.

So, Pete... how's the build going? what did you do for electronics?

[pete_nj]

Thanks VT -
Glad to get any tips I can. My boat is the deep draft version. PM me if you want to take it off-line.
Pete

Pete,
Just read the thread for the first time. I am out of Philly and my primary racing ride is a Sabre 426. If you want any info or helpful tips let me know, and I'll hook you up with our numbers and set up.