46 replies to this topic

[Heriberto]

I really did do a search first, and couldn't find a good topic on this.

I was looking at the Wichard jackline system, which the last time I looked I thought were horrifically overpriced at around $200 for a 30-footer. I thought they were pretty cool though because they have reflective tape in them and dayglow hardware, and I was hoping they had come down to something reasonable. Well, they have come down almost half, so that is getting more reasonable (if the forged tensioner pieces are $50/pair and sewing the loop is maybe $10/pair that makes the webbing $1.50/foot). Anyway, I read the following blurb and had a question.

Lyf'Safe by Wichard is a complete jackline kit allowing safer foredeck and mast work - especially at night and in marginal conditions. Note that while it's common to think of installing jacklines at deck level, a safer and more functional installation would have the jacklines suspended near waist or chest height, using elevated structures on the vessel for intermediate suspension point(s). Can be tailored to the length of the boat (using the adjuster) Attaches to adequately strong cleats, padeyes, pulpitpushpits, etc.

Has anyone done a "suspended" jackline like this? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. How "functional" could that really be? Unless you are mounting them alongside the top lifeline, and wouldn't that just increase how far you are at "the end of your tether" (so to speak) if you go overboard?

[savoir]

This stuff is cheap but may not meet your race regulations. They also have the ORC approved stuff at $1.05/foot.

http://www.sailrite....er-1-White-2700

I tie mine to the mooring cleats.

[B.J. Porter]

I really did do a search first, and couldn't find a good topic on this.

I was looking at the Wichard jackline system, which the last time I looked I thought were horrifically overpriced at around $200 for a 30-footer. I thought they were pretty cool though because they have reflective tape in them and dayglow hardware, and I was hoping they had come down to something reasonable. Well, they have come down almost half, so that is getting more reasonable (if the forged tensioner pieces are $50/pair and sewing the loop is maybe $10/pair that makes the webbing $1.50/foot). Anyway, I read the following blurb and had a question.

Lyf'Safe by Wichard is a complete jackline kit allowing safer foredeck and mast work - especially at night and in marginal conditions. Note that while it's common to think of installing jacklines at deck level, a safer and more functional installation would have the jacklines suspended near waist or chest height, using elevated structures on the vessel for intermediate suspension point(s). Can be tailored to the length of the boat (using the adjuster) Attaches to adequately strong cleats, padeyes, pulpitpushpits, etc.

Has anyone done a "suspended" jackline like this? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. How "functional" could that really be? Unless you are mounting them alongside the top lifeline, and wouldn't that just increase how far you are at "the end of your tether" (so to speak) if you go overboard?

It seems to me that a waist high jack line is just one more thing for me to trip over or get tangled in.

[Rail Meat]

Get the flat spectra webbing. Have your sailmaker sew loops into the fore and aft ends, measured to length. Measurements should allow it to be attached at the forward end (I dog tag mine to padeyes, others secure them to cleats. At the aft end, then use 3 millimeter dyneems to lash the aft end to what ever you have to secure it to. In my case, I use a winchard folding pad eye.

[savoir]

Sailrite spectra webbing costs $5.50/foot.

[acesails]

"This stuff is cheap but may not meet your race regulations. They also have the ORC approved stuff at $1.05/foot."



I would sew 2 plys of that 1" tubular polyestyer webbing.
I like loops either end, with bit of leather/other chafe gear inside loop,
lash with Dyneema line.

I have a great source for webbing, and will look into webbing with reflective stripe.

Don't need Dyneema/Spectra webbing for jacklines, imho.

[WHL]

Get the flat spectra webbing. Have your sailmaker sew loops into the fore and aft ends, measured to length. Measurements should allow it to be attached at the forward end (I dog tag mine to padeyes, others secure them to cleats. At the aft end, then use 3 millimeter dyneema to lash the aft end to what ever you have to secure it to. In my case, I use a winchard folding pad eye.

+1 on that approach. Last year, "Cruisin Loser" (who's a climber too) bought some flat webbing that's used by those crazy guys that string them across very wide ravines so they can walk across like some circus act !!. The stuff far exceeds the ISAF OSR specs and at a lower cost than the "marine" products.

Heriberto, send him a PM for details of you're interested.

[Cruisin Loser]

This is where my stalking WHL pays off.

This place, this stuff has a 3 sigma minimum breaking strength of 9,100# for under a buck a foot.

They also have Vectran flat webbing, 15,000#, for about $2.60/ft, but it says you need to preorder to get it in april.

They ship quickly and are good guys.

[savoir]

Something is wrong with the claims on that stuff. I don't buy it. When it's too good to be true . . . .

[Flying Wasp]

Here's a neat trick I learned to keep them taut and flat - when installing them, soak them in water, do what RM said and crank them tight with some Dyneema through an eye and then when they dry they will be nice and taut. Also, do not run them all the way to the stern, but you probably already knew that...

[Cruisin Loser]

Something is wrong with the claims on that stuff. I don't buy it. When it's too good to be true . . . .

Rock climbers and slack liners aren't rich like sailors.

The mantra (polyester) jack lines I installed last year are much stouter than the ones they replaced. The slack line guys stretch them across some scary shit and walk them. I would think that if their stuff was shit, there'd be a lot of talus burgers (dead guys) and lawsuits.

[NoStrings]

You want to put some twist into them so they don't vibrate on the deck making you...well....nuts. CL is absolutely right. You can buy 9800lb webbing a LOT cheaper than you can get from any marine source. Buy two inch, sew it in half, bar tack loops in the end and lash it down after soaking the hell out of it. I don't know why anyone would ever want it waist high btw...it's not a handrail for god's sake. It's not supposed to keep you on the boat either, your hands are supposed to do that. It's supposed to keep you really close if you happen to lose your grip. You don't want to have jacklines be your last line of defense. Hold the f--k on to the boat.

[stinky]

Something is wrong with the claims on that stuff. I don't buy it. When it's too good to be true . . . .

Rock climbers and slack liners aren't rich like sailors.

The mantra (polyester) jack lines I installed last year are much stouter than the ones they replaced. The slack line guys stretch them across some scary shit and walk them. I would think that if their stuff was shit, there'd be a lot of talus burgers (dead guys) and lawsuits.

We also double them up (either by taping two 1" line's together, or by treading a piece of 9/16" webbing inside of a 1" piece), and also add a dynamic climbing rope underneath as a backup.

edit- I've made jacklines by threading 9/16 inside of 1", thinking that more UV and chafe protection is better than less. Also, installing while wet, and adding twists are key.

[savoir]

Something is wrong with the claims on that stuff. I don't buy it. When it's too good to be true . . . .

Rock climbers and slack liners aren't rich like sailors.

The mantra (polyester) jack lines I installed last year are much stouter than the ones they replaced. The slack line guys stretch them across some scary shit and walk them. I would think that if their stuff was shit, there'd be a lot of talus burgers (dead guys) and lawsuits.

So 1" polyester which the seller tells us isn't hollow or doubled over is stronger than 1 3/4" spectra ?
http://www.sailrite.com/Webbing-Spectra-White-1-3-4-7000





Maybe it depends on the condition ?

[Boomberries]

Something is wrong with the claims on that stuff. I don't buy it. When it's too good to be true . . . .

Rock climbers and slack liners aren't rich like sailors.

The mantra (polyester) jack lines I installed last year are much stouter than the ones they replaced. The slack line guys stretch them across some scary shit and walk them. I would think that if their stuff was shit, there'd be a lot of talus burgers (dead guys) and lawsuits.

Trust me savoir .... after sailing several hundred miles offshore with CL, I can tell you that he knows his stuff, in regards to both sailing and climbing.

(Are a few folks going stir crazy from not enough time on the water lately, or what? Strange tone and attitudes noted around here lately. )

[Soley]

APS has the best jacklines. Webbing milked over 1/4" spectra. Strong, non stretchy, easy to clip on to and you don't slip on them. Would choose them every time.

http://www.apsltd.co...-jacklines.aspx

[duncan (the other one)]

You don't want to have jacklines be your last line of defense. Hold the f--k on to the boat.

WTF?!

They ARE your last line of defence if you fall off whilst hooked onto one.

[savoir]

Something is wrong with the claims on that stuff. I don't buy it. When it's too good to be true . . . .

Rock climbers and slack liners aren't rich like sailors.

The mantra (polyester) jack lines I installed last year are much stouter than the ones they replaced. The slack line guys stretch them across some scary shit and walk them. I would think that if their stuff was shit, there'd be a lot of talus burgers (dead guys) and lawsuits.

Trust me savoir .... after sailing several hundred miles offshore with CL, I can tell you that he knows his stuff, in regards to both sailing and climbing.

(Are a few folks going stir crazy from not enough time on the water lately, or what? Strange tone and attitudes noted around here lately. )

Trust you ? No way ! Look at what you are asking us all to believe. There are two webbing products which are :

(i) both polyester
(ii) both 1" wide
(iii) based on the photographs, of similar thickness
(iv) not doubled over or tubular

Despite all that one of them is, if you Cruisin Loser and the seller are to be believed, 400% stronger than the other.

Yer dreamin'.

[Estar]

Trust you ? No way ! Look at what you are asking us all to believe. There are two webbing products which are :

(i) both polyester
(ii) both 1" wide
(iii) based on the photographs, of similar thickness
(iv) not doubled over or tubular

Despite all that one of them is, if you Cruisin Loser and the seller are to be believed, 400% stronger than the other.

Yer dreamin'.

A bit bored today, so:

Basic data
Manta 1" polyester webbing= 5.32lbs/100ft (= ,0531lbs/ft) with 9450 lbs breaking strength
Sailrite 1" tubular polyester webbing = .96oz/yard (=.02lbs/ft) with 2700lbs breaking strength

So, the manta webbing is 266% heavier per ft with 350% higher breaking strength, or 30% more strength per weight.

A 30% gain using higher quality weaving and fibers is certaintly possible.

[Marvin]

Can someone refresh my memory with Grade 12 physics...

OSR 4.04 Jackstays, etc. states: "20kN (2,040 kgf or 4,500 lbf) min breaking strainwebbing is recommended;", is that the same measurement unit as saying "xxxx lbs breaking strength"? The OSR uses a force unit of measurement while the statements above simply rely on a weight unit... What gives?

[pogen]

kg is a unit of mass
N is a unit of force
kgf is "kilograms force", i.e. the force due to gravity of a 1 kg mass in a 1 g field. g = 9.8 m/s^2

So F = m*a; kgf = N/g

lb = pound, the English unit of force (not mass)
g = 32 ft/s^2
lbf = "pounds force" which is a miss-use as pounds are already a unit of force
English unit of mass is the 'slug' which is a unit of mass that has a weight (force due to gravity) of 32 lbs in a 1 g field.

[NoStrings]

You don't want to have jacklines be your last line of defense. Hold the f--k on to the boat.

WTF?!

They ARE your last line of defence if you fall off whilst hooked onto one.

We've lost people to flush drowning from being dragged by their tethers attached to jacklines. Yeah, it's better than being left behind. IMHO, jacklines are there to make body recovery easier. Stay on the boat.

[walterbshaffer]

Anyway, I read the following blurb and had a question.

Lyf'Safe by Wichard is a complete jackline kit allowing safer foredeck and mast work - especially at night and in marginal conditions. Note that while it's common to think of installing jacklines at deck level, a safer and more functional installation would have the jacklines suspended near waist or chest height, using elevated structures on the vessel for intermediate suspension point(s). Can be tailored to the length of the boat (using the adjuster) Attaches to adequately strong cleats, padeyes, pulpitpushpits, etc.

Has anyone done a "suspended" jackline like this? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. How "functional" could that really be? Unless you are mounting them alongside the top lifeline, and wouldn't that just increase how far you are at "the end of your tether" (so to speak) if you go overboard?

They sound like they are talking about a pretty big boat with several "intermediate structures" and (I would guess) a jack line installed along the centerline, not 2 along each side deck of a probably smaller vessel as you seem to be contemplating.

I bought a set of 30' jacklines w/clips on one end and the other end to be tied off from ebay for $45; works for me on a 33' boat

[blackjenner]

V1.0 of the jackline system I installed on my Baba 35 Pilot House cutter.

After living with them for a year, I plan on some minor improvements.

The challenge here the pilot house but, that actually turned into a bonus.

It may not be how you would do it but I've had more than one person (a well known rigger and another well know sail maker) aboard and they like it.

Submitted for your review...

http://ourfreedompro...-damn-boat.html

[WHL]

It looks functional on your cruising boat but the concept probably won't work on a racing boat that has a greater need for a clear, unobstructed foredeck

[blackjenner]

It looks functional on your cruising boat but the concept probably won't work on a racing boat that has a greater need for a clear, unobstructed foredeck

Agreed. I would not suggest this is a one-size-fits-all solution.

On a racing boat, I think I'd still keep the lines as center as possible.

[ctutmark]

It looks functional on your cruising boat but the concept probably won't work on a racing boat that has a greater need for a clear, unobstructed foredeck

Agreed. I would not suggest this is a one-size-fits-all solution.

On a racing boat, I think I'd still keep the lines as center as possible.

Do the jacklines interfere with the bow hatch getting opened?

[allen]

Standard climbing rated 1 inch webbing is rated at 4,000 pounds and cost 36 cents a foot at REI. It is rated to break you fall off a cliff so I would certainly think it strong enough for a jack line. I think you would not want spectra for anything that might be there to break your fall as falling against a spectra restraint can kill you from the shock load. You want stretch on anything you are going to fall against. There are some references to testing on my web site that goes into this in some detail.

That said, a bit on stitching it. I don't remember the numbers exactly and you should do your own experiment in any event. Take some webbing and sew it up with maybe 10 stitches. Then hang a weight on it and see how much weight it can take before it breaks. Say that is 40 pounds just for an example. The line above is rated at 4000 pounds. You want your stitching to be good to 4000 pounds and you just found it can take 4 pounds per stitch. Therefore, you need to sew it with 1000 stitches. I have no idea if this example (40 pounds) is realistic but the point is, with the thread you plan on using make some measurements and figure out how many stitches you need. By the way, the only thread I found that has any strength at all is the stuff Sailrite sells. Nothing in the local fabric store had any strength, I bought one of each one they sold before going to Sailright. The difference was huge.

Finally, I string mine from my forward dock cleat to a cleat at the aft end of my cabin. I don't want it going all the way to the stern because 1) I am not going to fall out of my cockpit anyway and 2) If I do fall, I don't want to be trailing the boat, I want to be next to it so I stand a chance of getting back on or at least holding myself out of the water.

Allen
L-36.com

[WHL]

ISAF Offshore Special Regs

4.04.1
iv 20kN (2,040 kgf or 4,500 lbf) min breaking strain webbing is recommended;

[allen]

ISAF Offshore Special Regs

4.04.1
iv 20kN (2,040 kgf or 4,500 lbf) min breaking strain webbing is recommended;

The 36 cent stuff is 17.8kN REI sells several grades of webbing. You would not want anything except the climbing grade. If you need the other 2.2kN, I guess you have to look elsewhere. Defender has some for a similar price but it is only rated at 800 pounds. Probably not what you want. Personally, I feel comfortable with anything rated for climbing as that is a pretty high standard. Certainly better than something rated by some guy on eBay.

Allen

[Cruisin Loser]

ISAF Offshore Special Regs

4.04.1
iv 20kN (2,040 kgf or 4,500 lbf) min breaking strain webbing is recommended;

The 36 cent stuff is 17.8kN REI sells several grades of webbing. You would not want anything except the climbing grade. If you need the other 2.2kN, I guess you have to look elsewhere. Defender has some for a similar price but it is only rated at 800 pounds. Probably not what you want. Personally, I feel comfortable with anything rated for climbing as that is a pretty high standard. Certainly better than something rated by some guy on eBay.

Allen

The REI webbing is nylon, which is quite stretchy. This is preferable when building climbing anchors as it has a little give and is less likely to shock load a sketchy gear placement, plus it's very inexpensive, which is important to dirtbag climbers.

I think that for jacklines, if you don't want to spend the big bucks for Spectra, then polyester (dacron) is the way to go for lower stretch. When I gave my sailmaker the required specs, he replied that his sailing sources couldn't meet the strength requirement in polyester, so I sourced the stuff from the slackline outfit listed above. It is much thicker, heavier and better finished than the previous jacklines my sailmaker had built, and when I set them up with spectra lashings at one end they stayed tight all season.

Nearly all slackliners come from the climbing community, the slackline material is climbing grade, but polyester instead of nylon.

[blackjenner]

It looks functional on your cruising boat but the concept probably won't work on a racing boat that has a greater need for a clear, unobstructed foredeck

Agreed. I would not suggest this is a one-size-fits-all solution.

On a racing boat, I think I'd still keep the lines as center as possible.

Do the jacklines interfere with the bow hatch getting opened?

No, we checked that out. They do not interfere. They are high enough above it, and flexible enough, that they don't interfere with either the forward hatch or the secondary anchor locker.

[Merit 25]

http://www.countrybr...nch-super-heavy

Pretty easy to find some good stuff online. Lots of colors too. I think polyester might be better than nylon, but I honestly don't use them that much. I also run one down each side of the boat on the side decks. If I ran it in the middle, a 3' tether would still have you hanging off the side of the boat. Line will stretch when wet, and stretches a lot when a load is placed in the middle of two anchor points. So we only clip into the high side.

[allen]

http://www.countrybr...nch-super-heavy

Pretty easy to find some good stuff online. Lots of colors too. I think polyester might be better than nylon, but I honestly don't use them that much. I also run one down each side of the boat on the side decks. If I ran it in the middle, a 3' tether would still have you hanging off the side of the boat. Line will stretch when wet, and stretches a lot when a load is placed in the middle of two anchor points. So we only clip into the high side.

If I am not mistaken, climbing gear has a minimum breaking strength and the above webbing is quoted as an average strength. In the testing I just completed on soft shackles, the difference would have been significant.

[Ocean View]

Similar to Allen,

Race boat
We thread our webbing through the dock cleat at the bow so it pulls and tightens on itself smoothly in a half hitch style around the cleat and the load is pulling flat and directly rearwards to each side.
We also tie around it on the cleat with a bit of 4mm rope that is lightly sewn (4 stitches) on at the mid point to hold it in place - not for strength - it's just easier whilst securing them and keeps it midway for us.

We then run them inside the rigging along the deck / coach-house to the rear dock cleats where we thread it through the centre gap and tie it off in a series of hitches on the cleat so the load is spread evenly while ensuring that the load will always be pulling from the back of the cleat fro the first hitch.

We then use a bit of 4mm bit of rope that's sewn onto the tail of the webbing at each side to secure the webbing tail to each cleat - Which in essence stop the webbing from potentially coming undone at any time.
And we electrical tape down the rope tails if it's a long offshore and they might be washed around.

UV STABLE
You should also check that the deck lines are UV stable and do not degrade over time with sun exposure - they in the sun every day you use them.

+ as already mentioned

HOLD ON -
Don't fall off -
And if you do - hang on even harder.

[WHL]

........snip...............

We then run them inside the rigging along the deck / coach-house to the rear dock cleats where we thread it through the centre gap and tie it off in a series of hitches on the cleat so the load is spread evenly while ensuring that the load will always be pulling from the back of the cleat fro the first hitch.

......snip.............

Recommend putting a pad eye 6 to 8 ft forward of the transom to tie off. By doing this, someone over the side will be alongside the hull and not dragging astern as they would with your jacklines led to the aft mooring cleats.

[Ocean View]

Recommend putting a pad eye 6 to 8 ft forward of the transom to tie off. By doing this, someone over the side will be alongside the hull and not dragging astern as they would with your jacklines led to the aft mooring cleats.

Thanks for that
Will find a place to put them.

[Ballast Technician]

........snip...............

We then run them inside the rigging along the deck / coach-house to the rear dock cleats where we thread it through the centre gap and tie it off in a series of hitches on the cleat so the load is spread evenly while ensuring that the load will always be pulling from the back of the cleat fro the first hitch.

......snip.............

Recommend putting a pad eye 6 to 8 ft forward of the transom to tie off. By doing this, someone over the side will be alongside the hull and not dragging astern as they would with your jacklines led to the aft mooring cleats.

That. Plus most race boats do not have mooring cleats...

[blackjenner]

........snip...............

We then run them inside the rigging along the deck / coach-house to the rear dock cleats where we thread it through the centre gap and tie it off in a series of hitches on the cleat so the load is spread evenly while ensuring that the load will always be pulling from the back of the cleat fro the first hitch.

......snip.............

Recommend putting a pad eye 6 to 8 ft forward of the transom to tie off. By doing this, someone over the side will be alongside the hull and not dragging astern as they would with your jacklines led to the aft mooring cleats.

That. Plus most race boats do not have mooring cleats...

Yeah, it'll never work on race boats.

[Merit 25]

If I am not mistaken, climbing gear has a minimum breaking strength and the above webbing is quoted as an average strength. In the testing I just completed on soft shackles, the difference would have been significant.

Yes you're right, but the average breaking strength is 6100 lbs. The difference between minimum and avg. should be no more than 100-150 lbs +/-. So at the low end you're still well above 5500 lbs.

This is before nylon gets wet, or UV damage.

[some dude]

V1.0 of the jackline system I installed on my Baba 35 Pilot House cutter.

After living with them for a year, I plan on some minor improvements.

The challenge here the pilot house but, that actually turned into a bonus.

It may not be how you would do it but I've had more than one person (a well known rigger and another well know sail maker) aboard and they like it.

Submitted for your review...

http://ourfreedompro...-damn-boat.html

1. what happens if you want to go from the port side to the starboard side?

2. what happens if you want to go all the aft the to the cockpit?

3. what happens if you want to drag a sail/dinghy/anchor from the port side off the bow to the starboard side?

Seems to me you've made an obstacle course

[blackjenner]

1. what happens if you want to go from the port side to the starboard side?

Stepping over them has not seemed a problem, especially when you can use them for support.

2. what happens if you want to go all the aft the to the cockpit?

You run to the mast, clip in with the second line, unclip the first and move aft. We have done this frequently and feel pretty secure with it.

3. what happens if you want to drag a sail/dinghy/anchor from the port side off the bow to the starboard side?

We have two kayaks and have often just slid them over the jack lines, just like we do the lifelines. Or, we slide them under. There doesn't seem to be a problem.

Seems to me you've made an obstacle course

We have learned to work with the system that keeps us on the center of the boat.

Everything is a trade off.

Any system or solution can be criticized for faults and everything can be improved in some way.

On this boat this seems to work best.

YourJackinesMayVary

[Merit 25]

I have to be honest, anytime I've ever been clipped in, I've been crawling on my hands and knees. If it's nasty enough to clip in, you probably should be walking on deck or climbing over anything. That's why I like jacklines on the deck, and liflines that are lower, rather than higher. But that's my preference.

[allen]

I only use jacklines when sailing alone and there are no seas on the bay so stepping over a jack line would not be an issue but I have an observation. The reason to use webbing instead of double braid or Amsteel for that matter is that you can step on it and it won't roll and cause you to fall. If you have the lines 18 inches off the deck, why use webbing?

Allen

[blackjenner]

I only use jacklines when sailing alone and there are no seas on the bay so stepping over a jack line would not be an issue but I have an observation. The reason to use webbing instead of double braid or Amsteel for that matter is that you can step on it and it won't roll and cause you to fall. If you have the lines 18 inches off the deck, why use webbing?

Allen

Because I bought it in a 300' roll and I could use it for a number of other things. Also, I wasn't sure if it would end up on the decks or not when I was thinking about the design.

[allen]

I only use jacklines when sailing alone and there are no seas on the bay so stepping over a jack line would not be an issue but I have an observation. The reason to use webbing instead of double braid or Amsteel for that matter is that you can step on it and it won't roll and cause you to fall. If you have the lines 18 inches off the deck, why use webbing?

Allen

Because I bought it in a 300' roll and I could use it for a number of other things. Also, I wasn't sure if it would end up on the decks or not when I was thinking about the design.

Well, I like the design and think I will try it myself. I personally don't like the caribiner being on the deck and with the jack line on the deck, it is always on the wrong side of one of the sheets requiring unhooking to get around the sheet.

One thing I didn't understand was your description sounded like you had two caribiners and you switched off around the mast but the picture shows one. Can you explain that?

Allen

[blackjenner]

My tethers have two leads and two shackles. One is short and one longer.

Think of it as a Y that branches from your harness.

The pic only shows one shackle.