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2013 Race Course Released


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#1 mattdarnell

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:50 AM

The course has been revealed - http://www.americasc...ourse-revealed/

What is the water like there? Looks very protected.

Are there big shifts, tides a big factor that close to shore, etc.

Any local knowledge.


-Matt

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#2 mattdarnell

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:59 AM

SFYC & GGYC will have prime seating for the racing.....should be good viewing from Crissy field - it looks like a huge area.

#3 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:13 AM

The course has been revealed - http://www.americasc...ourse-revealed/

What is the water like there? Looks very protected.

Are there big shifts, tides a big factor that close to shore, etc.

Any local knowledge.


-Matt

I wouldn't say the water is protected in that area, from either wind or current, and yes, you will find plenty of wind shifts and gusts- some pretty abrupt.

Playing the current largely depends on where you are in the cycle and how big the tides and currents are in terms of what your tactics might be.

I suspect you'll see some good action on the shore line.



#4 mattdarnell

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:33 AM

I wouldn't say the water is protected in that area, from either wind or current, and yes, you will find plenty of wind shifts and gusts- some pretty abrupt.

Playing the current largely depends on where you are in the cycle and how big the tides and currents are in terms of what your tactics might be.

I suspect you'll see some good action on the shore line.


That sounds great....I can't wait to see the 72 footers tacking up the shore.

I bet the teams that race employ more than one engineer to map the map the currents for them.

-Matt

#5 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:38 AM


I wouldn't say the water is protected in that area, from either wind or current, and yes, you will find plenty of wind shifts and gusts- some pretty abrupt.

Playing the current largely depends on where you are in the cycle and how big the tides and currents are in terms of what your tactics might be.

I suspect you'll see some good action on the shore line.


That sounds great....I can't wait to see the 72 footers tacking up the shore.

I bet the teams that race employ more than one engineer to map the map the currents for them.

-Matt


What will make it interesting is the speeds they sail at. Seeing them charge the shoreline at 30+ knots will be quite a sight. Not sure what they draw but the water does get shallow in there, but they'll have it mapped out pretty carefully. Boat on boat action will make it pretty interesting.

#6 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:43 AM



I wouldn't say the water is protected in that area, from either wind or current, and yes, you will find plenty of wind shifts and gusts- some pretty abrupt.

Playing the current largely depends on where you are in the cycle and how big the tides and currents are in terms of what your tactics might be.

I suspect you'll see some good action on the shore line.


That sounds great....I can't wait to see the 72 footers tacking up the shore.

I bet the teams that race employ more than one engineer to map the map the currents for them.

-Matt


What will make it interesting is the speeds they sail at. Seeing them charge the shoreline at 30+ knots will be quite a sight. Not sure what they draw but the water does get shallow in there, but they'll have it mapped out pretty carefully. Boat on boat action will make it pretty interesting.

“If we don’t agree, there are serious questions about the cup being held in San Francisco,” said Stephen Barclay, chief operating officer for the regatta.

#7 bwana

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:46 AM

The tides and currents are a big factor for monohulls, especially on the city front. Are the cats (somewhat) immune because they draw less water, or will we still see dozens of short tacks and lots of calls for sea room in close races in a flood?

Where can I reserve a bleacher seat on the bridge? That'll be the best view of the course.

#8 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:47 AM




I wouldn't say the water is protected in that area, from either wind or current, and yes, you will find plenty of wind shifts and gusts- some pretty abrupt.

Playing the current largely depends on where you are in the cycle and how big the tides and currents are in terms of what your tactics might be.

I suspect you'll see some good action on the shore line.


That sounds great....I can't wait to see the 72 footers tacking up the shore.

I bet the teams that race employ more than one engineer to map the map the currents for them.

-Matt


What will make it interesting is the speeds they sail at. Seeing them charge the shoreline at 30+ knots will be quite a sight. Not sure what they draw but the water does get shallow in there, but they'll have it mapped out pretty carefully. Boat on boat action will make it pretty interesting.

"If we don't agree, there are serious questions about the cup being held in San Francisco," said Stephen Barclay, chief operating officer for the regatta.

Google "Alameda" pea brain.

"Any city" Posted Image

#9 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:02 AM

Why do these dense cunts persist with reaching starts?

#10 Lake Shark

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:12 AM

I'm a little confused by this graphic are they supposed to round the windward gate like they would a leeward one i.e. through the middle of the windward gate and through the middle of the leeward gate, or are they going upwind to one mark then down to another and then back up and down to the others?

#11 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:33 AM

Why do these dense cunts persist with reaching starts?

I assume by the term "dense cunts" you're referring to John Craig and the rest of the challengers who have a voice in what is happening.

My understanding is that in theory, reaching starts precludes the winner of the start from getting an early jump on the race and results in lead changes, which seems to be the case if you've followed the racing to date.



#12 pogen

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:46 AM

This course seems ridiculously, grotesquely small.

6nm per lap, 20 - 30 kts vmg, 12 - 18 min per lap, 4 or 5 laps per hour? Is the point to get it all over as quickly as possible?

Alameda? You mean race in the Estuary? B)

#13 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:08 AM

The tides and currents are a big factor for monohulls, especially on the city front. Are the cats (somewhat) immune because they draw less water, or will we still see dozens of short tacks and lots of calls for sea room in close races in a flood?

Where can I reserve a bleacher seat on the bridge? That'll be the best view of the course.

It's safe to assume cats are much more immune to currents, but we're comparing cats against cats here so the currents should play into the equation.

I wouldn't expect to see lots of short tacks on 72' cats, as that's going to be a costly maneuver.

Not sure they're going to have bleachers on the bridge - standing room only.



#14 dogwatch

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:11 AM

Why do these dense cunts persist with reaching starts?


There was an interview with TH in which he claimed it avoided handing undue advantage to the 1st boat off the line compared (presumably) to the conventional upwind start. However I've watched pretty much all the ACWS races to date and it sure doesn't look that way to me. Anyone who has done big-fleet racing knows that in general, each mark rounding increases separation because - more or less - only one boat goes around a mark at a time. If you have half a boat length advantage coming into a mark, that turns into a couple of boat lengths on the way out. So putting a mark rounding 15 seconds into the race increases the separation of the boat in front.

#15 SL33_SF

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:24 AM

So going out the Gate towards Point Loma has quietly died?
Chicken.

This will result in the AC72's being unable to sail on open water, ever.
The maximum wave high and period is very well known within the bay and is like flat water for a 72ft cat.

With respect to currents:
The AC72 will be faster downwind if the current is against them, as their downwind VMG is higher than the TWS...
I am not looking forward to the TV commentators trying to explain that to the viewers ;-)

#16 dogwatch

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:29 AM

This course seems ridiculously, grotesquely small.

6nm per lap, 20 - 30 kts vmg, 12 - 18 min per lap, 4 or 5 laps per hour? Is the point to get it all over as quickly as possible?


Target race times 30 or 60 minutes. Got to fit into that broadcast slot. http://www.cupinfo.c...rn81-123111.pdf

#17 Surf City Racing

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:33 AM

You guys doubting John Craig? He's the master! Especially when it comes to that part of The Bay.

Kind of lags that the rest of The Bay won't be as good for spectating. This course doesn't really take advantage of the entire "arena".

#18 maxmini

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:51 AM

You guys doubting John Craig? He's the master! Especially when it comes to that part of The Bay.

Kind of lags that the rest of The Bay won't be as good for spectating. This course doesn't really take advantage of the entire "arena".


It's a half arena :) The Sausalito , Belvedere, Angle Island and Tiburon crowd are going to be miffed .

#19 maxmini

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:54 AM


This course seems ridiculously, grotesquely small.

6nm per lap, 20 - 30 kts vmg, 12 - 18 min per lap, 4 or 5 laps per hour? Is the point to get it all over as quickly as possible?


Target race times 30 or 60 minutes. Got to fit into that broadcast slot. http://www.cupinfo.c...rn81-123111.pdf


The Americas Cup reduced to a reality TV show . They even have a name for it " The Frisco Shore ".

#20 Monster Mash

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:51 AM

This course seems ridiculously, grotesquely small.

6nm per lap, 20 - 30 kts vmg, 12 - 18 min per lap, 4 or 5 laps per hour? Is the point to get it all over as quickly as possible?

Alameda? You mean race in the Estuary? B)


Did a drive thru today, the basin by Nelsons is finished being dredged and the tarmac and area by the old hangers appear to be getting a make over.

#21 Dixie

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:44 AM

^i will say again, take note of how quiet K38Bob has been on this topic.

As for the GG bridge, it is my understanding that it is not entirely out, and they understand the iconic value of it, but racing will only will get there if its light and flooding.

Just checking: is this the ACWS, LV or AC course?


Yes they are windward gates.

#22 Dixie

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:48 AM

Edit Clearly it's the LV / AC course. Hope they name one of the marks Blackaller.

#23 Hase

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:37 AM

The AC has turned into a farce. Not even worth checking the forums for info anymore.
This is my last time in this forum.

PS: I am going to my local sailing club, where an old guy who never sailed before sets up a shit course everyone moans about. Personally I will never complain again about that 10deg bias in that starting line. U get better racing there than the AC.

#24 vmg

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:58 AM

This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?

#25 Test

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:14 PM

This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?

Postpone

#26 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:29 PM

This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?


Not sure you'll find a Northerly on the SF Bay in the summer so this is not a concern. Prevailing wind direction is ~ 240 degrees.

#27 SmartPig

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:30 PM

Geezus -- here is a quote

"The exact location of the race course area will change slightly on any given day depending on weather conditions."

Based on the diagram -- it sure looks like, depending on the wind, it might be impossible to set up good beats. How crazy is that?

#28 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:37 PM

John Craig has never had an issue setting up a beat on the city front, and don't expect he will for the AC.

I would be more concerned if they stated they could not change the course - "slightly"

No need for drama here. Things will work out just fine.

#29 K38BOB

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:44 PM


This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?


Not sure you'll find a Northerly on the SF Bay in the summer so this is not a concern. Prevailing wind direction is ~ 240 degrees.


JC said recently that 3% of the time there is a northerly or southerly wind in the July-Sept time frame. They have a contingency course area for that and "I'll have a bad day if we have to use it". Its essentially a box oriented north from cityfront (and cuts across the shipping lanes- unlike the expected course shown which allows shipping lanes to be open)

#30 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:51 PM



This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?


Not sure you'll find a Northerly on the SF Bay in the summer so this is not a concern. Prevailing wind direction is ~ 240 degrees.


JC said recently that 3% of the time there is a northerly or southerly wind in the July-Sept time frame. They have a contingency course area for that and "I'll have a bad day if we have to use it". Its essentially a box oriented north from cityfront (and cuts across the shipping lanes- unlike the expected course shown which allows shipping lanes to be open)


I guess we'll just have to settle for a 97% probability of a westerly then.

#31 maxmini

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:54 PM


This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?

Postpone


They can't postpone , they've sold their souls to the TV gods .

#32 Liquid

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:30 PM

should make for great spectating from Crissy, the adjoining clubs, those slum houses behind and the city front... However, you will not be able to see the finish line from Crissy, or from StFYC, GGYC!? WTF Are they going to have jumbotrons at Crissy? Best bet is to start working anybody you know that has a north facing house in Pacific Heights!!

At least the bare away capsizes will be within touching distance of shore!

This pretty much shuts down Crissy Field entirely. There will be no windsurfing, kiting, kayaking etc at Crissy which is not so popular with the local watermen/women who will be told, sorry, no windsurfing for you today, or tomorrow, or the next day!

#33 Mariner

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:43 PM

I'm actually a little disapointed but believe this to be a fluid document (no pun intended) they are only using a small portion of the "amphitheater"!

This will be great but not as great as it could be and I suspect this is mostly OR and not John Craig.

"...Expecting a westerly" ha theres not much else. Know that the blow coming in through the gate is pretty concentrated and that the potential tactics involve big decisions to go out into the slot for the pressure, or stay in close to shore to avoid current depending on time in the cycle.

As we all know this is incredible viewing when the boats are coming into the City front to avoid current... incredible!

But, I still wouldve liked to see a big reach across the bay!

#34 nav

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:36 PM

should make for great spectating from Crissy, the adjoining clubs, those slum houses behind and the city front... However, you will not be able to see the finish line from Crissy, or from StFYC, GGYC!? WTF Are they going to have jumbotrons at Crissy? Best bet is to start working anybody you know that has a north facing house in Pacific Heights!!

At least the bare away capsizes will be within touching distance of shore!

This pretty much shuts down Crissy Field entirely. There will be no windsurfing, kiting, kayaking etc at Crissy which is not so popular with the local watermen/women who will be told, sorry, no windsurfing for you today, or tomorrow, or the next day!


One would need to establish what the three different coloured lines are supposed to represent before saying exactly what would be 'shut down'.

There is a huge 'unused' area of water directly in front of Crissy Field (which looks too far from the marks to make a good spectator area) - so perhaps it will be left for the kite and sail borders to enjoy.

The white line I think is supposed to represent the virtual boundary (do not cross- penalty). The red line may represent a controlled area - but the green? Rich folks parking?

#35 K38BOB

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:38 PM

should make for great spectating from Crissy, the adjoining clubs, those slum houses behind and the city front... However, you will not be able to see the finish line from Crissy, or from StFYC, GGYC!? WTF Are they going to have jumbotrons at Crissy? Best bet is to start working anybody you know that has a north facing house in Pacific Heights!!

At least the bare away capsizes will be within touching distance of shore!

This pretty much shuts down Crissy Field entirely. There will be no windsurfing, kiting, kayaking etc at Crissy which is not so popular with the local watermen/women who will be told, sorry, no windsurfing for you today, or tomorrow, or the next day!


The shaded area off Crissy is for beach launched boats such as kayaks

#36 nav

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:29 PM

http://www.americasc...ourse-revealed/

Ah ha, read the bumf and all will be revealed - the green line represents.....

A transit channel has been set up along the shore to allow ferry traffic, boats needing to transit in and out of the marinas as well as commercial fishing boats and other craft, to still operate safely during racing.

and as Kbob points out above the red shaded area is either Environmental buffers (?) or small boat access areas







#37 mattdarnell

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:44 PM

So going out the Gate towards Point Loma has quietly died?
Chicken.

This will result in the AC72's being unable to sail on open water, ever.
The maximum wave high and period is very well known within the bay and is like flat water for a 72ft cat.


I would love to see them do a lap around Alcatraz....I wonder if boats are being redesigned today knowing where they will be sailing.

Did DOGzilla ever sail around SF Bay, I can only remember them sailing San Diego.

-Matt

#38 nav

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:13 PM

from http://www.sfgate.co...G1329886494.jpg


Posted Image

and from http://www.americasc...ourse-revealed/

"Following consultation with numerous Bay users, the Coast Guard have issued a draft Special Local Regulation (now in the 90-day public comment phase), that defines a restricted area where we can safely set up our race course area," Craig says.

The restricted area box is expected to be in place for three to four hours a day on scheduled race days.



Note that the course shown is just a generic one.
Here: http://noticeboard.a...-Cup-Match1.pdf (where it countsPosted Image), they have mid-course finish options as well for example.

#39 nav

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:59 PM

Max draught for the 72s is 4.4m

#40 vmg

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:51 PM


This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?


Not sure you'll find a Northerly on the SF Bay in the summer so this is not a concern. Prevailing wind direction is ~ 240 degrees.


How many million dollars would you bet on that statement?
I would make it a concern. Even a small chance that the whole event gets FUBAR is too big a chance!

#41 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:02 PM



This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?


Not sure you'll find a Northerly on the SF Bay in the summer so this is not a concern. Prevailing wind direction is ~ 240 degrees.


How many million dollars would you bet on that statement?
I would make it a concern. Even a small chance that the whole event gets FUBAR is too big a chance!

Read above - JC has been doing SF Bay races for about a decade, and he estimates the probability at 97%.

With those odds I'd bet a fair chunk of change, and might even mortgage my neighbors dog.

How much would you bet ?



#42 nav

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:07 PM




This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?


Not sure you'll find a Northerly on the SF Bay in the summer so this is not a concern. Prevailing wind direction is ~ 240 degrees.


How many million dollars would you bet on that statement?
I would make it a concern. Even a small chance that the whole event gets FUBAR is too big a chance!

Read above - JC has been doing SF Bay races for about a decade, and he estimates the probability at 97%.

With those odds I'd bet a fair chunk of change, and might even mortgage my neighbors dog.

How much would you bet ?



Does it matter? Didn't someone say they could reorient the course if required?

That sounds like 100% covered for direction then, but what's the % below 5 or above 35(?) knots?

#43 kiwi_jon

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:21 PM

should make for great spectating from Crissy, the adjoining clubs, those slum houses behind and the city front... However, you will not be able to see the finish line from Crissy, or from StFYC, GGYC!? WTF Are they going to have jumbotrons at Crissy? Best bet is to start working anybody you know that has a north facing house in Pacific Heights!!

At least the bare away capsizes will be within touching distance of shore!

This pretty much shuts down Crissy Field entirely. There will be no windsurfing, kiting, kayaking etc at Crissy which is not so popular with the local watermen/women who will be told, sorry, no windsurfing for you today, or tomorrow, or the next day!


Has the National Parks service approved Crissy Field for America's Cup use? I understood it was still going through NEPA compliance.

#44 K38BOB

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:03 PM




This course assumes a westerly wind right?
What do they do in a northerly?


Not sure you'll find a Northerly on the SF Bay in the summer so this is not a concern. Prevailing wind direction is ~ 240 degrees.


How many million dollars would you bet on that statement?
I would make it a concern. Even a small chance that the whole event gets FUBAR is too big a chance!

Read above - JC has been doing SF Bay races for about a decade, and he estimates the probability at 97%.

With those odds I'd bet a fair chunk of change, and might even mortgage my neighbors dog.

How much would you bet ?


JC was quoting a weather reference. He/they have a North/South plan B- more complicated but planned contigency

#45 Moonduster

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 01:28 AM

It's really like no one is paying attention. The course is position for viewing, not sailing. That's consistent with the entire spectacle. It's about viewing, not sailing.

The fact of the matter is that those making decisions don't care from where the wind comes as long as there's wind. The line has been optimized so that it doesn't need to be square, which stops all that tedious and incessant whining about esoterics. You have to get over that - the orientation of the wind doesn't matter. It's not a sailing event. It's a viewing event.

The weird thing is that one can't view both the start and the finish from the same seat. But I supppose that's because everyone realizes that if there's any audience at all, it will be a TV audience. Or maybe, just maybe, it's so that there can be two locations of really expensive seating - some for the start and some for the finish. Because let's face it, this is going to be an expensive viewing event. Really expensive. Especially for the City of San Francisco.

Good thing there's a sucker born every minute, huh?

#46 K38BOB

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:23 AM

It's really like no one is paying attention. The course is position for viewing, not sailing. That's consistent with the entire spectacle. It's about viewing, not sailing.

The fact of the matter is that those making decisions don't care from where the wind comes as long as there's wind. The line has been optimized so that it doesn't need to be square, which stops all that tedious and incessant whining about esoterics. You have to get over that - the orientation of the wind doesn't matter. It's not a sailing event. It's a viewing event.

The weird thing is that one can't view both the start and the finish from the same seat. But I supppose that's because everyone realizes that if there's any audience at all, it will be a TV audience. Or maybe, just maybe, it's so that there can be two locations of really expensive seating - some for the start and some for the finish. Because let's face it, this is going to be an expensive viewing event. Really expensive. Especially for the City of San Francisco.

Good thing there's a sucker born every minute, huh?


Actually its very adjustable for wind and viewing- the marks are remote controlled (w local safety over ride)

Don't forget the jumbotrons-

#47 SmartPig

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:32 AM

I'm surprised they don't make them cross over lanes like in speed skating. Oh wait --- they may be planning that for 2017.

#48 dogwatch

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:50 AM

As we all know this is incredible viewing when the boats are coming into the City front to avoid current... incredible!


Actually we don't all know. I've never been to the left coast. Have no plans to do so. I'm relying on you guys for the local insights and I don't think I'm the only one.

#49 SW Sailor

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:01 AM


As we all know this is incredible viewing when the boats are coming into the City front to avoid current... incredible!


Actually we don't all know. I've never been to the left coast. Have no plans to do so. I'm relying on you guys for the local insights and I don't think I'm the only one.


Inputs have been provided - catch up on your reading.

#50 maxmini

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:15 AM


As we all know this is incredible viewing when the boats are coming into the City front to avoid current... incredible!


Actually we don't all know. I've never been to the left coast. Have no plans to do so. I'm relying on you guys for the local insights and I don't think I'm the only one.


Tacking up the city front will exciting for those on shore even with the course where it sits. During normal regattas IE: Big Boat you actually come in much closer. One of the limiting factors will be how easy the 72's are to tack. If it takes a lot to get that wing around and lost speed in each maneuver you will see more runs and less tacks .

#51 Scarecrow

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:46 AM


Why do these dense cunts persist with reaching starts?


There was an interview with TH in which he claimed it avoided handing undue advantage to the 1st boat off the line compared (presumably) to the conventional upwind start. However I've watched pretty much all the ACWS races to date and it sure doesn't look that way to me. Anyone who has done big-fleet racing knows that in general, each mark rounding increases separation because - more or less - only one boat goes around a mark at a time. If you have half a boat length advantage coming into a mark, that turns into a couple of boat lengths on the way out. So putting a mark rounding 15 seconds into the race increases the separation of the boat in front.


Watch the racing again. There have been more lead changes at or straight after the first mark than anywhere else. Having the boats hitting the first mark at reaching speeds and close together gives the second boat a perfect chance to attack.

#52 nav

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:59 PM

It's really like no one is paying attention. The course is position for viewing, not sailing. That's consistent with the entire spectacle. It's about viewing, not sailing.

The fact of the matter is that those making decisions don't care from where the wind comes as long as there's wind. The line has been optimized so that it doesn't need to be square, which stops all that tedious and incessant whining about esoterics. You have to get over that - the orientation of the wind doesn't matter. It's not a sailing event. It's a viewing event.

The weird thing is that one can't view both the start and the finish from the same seat. But I supppose that's because everyone realizes that if there's any audience at all, it will be a TV audience. Or maybe, just maybe, it's so that there can be two locations of really expensive seating - some for the start and some for the finish. Because let's face it, this is going to be an expensive viewing event. Really expensive. Especially for the City of San Francisco.

Good thing there's a sucker born every minute, huh?


Sorry but you are not correct. The courses have been defined (the link is in my post #38) and are clearly stated as being orientated to the wind, to suggest that the windward leeward could become a reach for the convenience of the audience can only be through gross ignorance or duplicity.

#53 Surf City Racing

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:17 PM

It's really like no one is paying attention. The course is position for viewing, not sailing. That's consistent with the entire spectacle. It's about viewing, not sailing.

The fact of the matter is that those making decisions don't care from where the wind comes as long as there's wind. The line has been optimized so that it doesn't need to be square, which stops all that tedious and incessant whining about esoterics. You have to get over that - the orientation of the wind doesn't matter. It's not a sailing event. It's a viewing event.

The weird thing is that one can't view both the start and the finish from the same seat. But I supppose that's because everyone realizes that if there's any audience at all, it will be a TV audience. Or maybe, just maybe, it's so that there can be two locations of really expensive seating - some for the start and some for the finish. Because let's face it, this is going to be an expensive viewing event. Really expensive. Especially for the City of San Francisco.

Good thing there's a sucker born every minute, huh?


Yeah, man. That isn't totally correct. This was shot from the race deck of the StFYC. Notice which way the boats are going? With reaching starts, the line will be absolutely perfectly oriented to set a good course.

F18 NOOD SF

There's more vid there if you what to see what the course s going to be like. I'm telling you nay sayers, JC doesn't screw around, he's the master. I can see it now around a board room table...Some media person has some brilliant idea on how to set the course. JC quietly responds, "Nope, we'll do it this way." And it's done.

Have you even ever sailed there, Mr Duster? From the sounds of it, not.

#54 Liquid

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:57 PM

The shaded area off Crissy is for beach launched boats such as kayaks


Windsurfers and kiters are being told differently, maybe it's because they are not kayaks... They will have very limited access, if any, to park, rig and launch from Crissy during the races. Sure they have a transit lane... but a board or kite at 25MPHs will traverse the lane and be at the red line in about 4 seconds. Talk about short tacking. Yes, you can launch more west than Crissy proper but the wind shadow is much larger the more west you go. In SF proper, Crissy is really the only viable kite launch. Do you really think they will allow a bunch of danglers to launch and land their kites on a beach with a 1000 people?

Just go down to Crissy on a nice typical summer weekend day and see how full the lot is with dog walkers, tourists, kiters and windsurfers... then add AC spectators = cluster fuck getting into and out of that beach/area. It can be a cluster fuck when there's not a major event!

#55 K38BOB

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:31 AM


The shaded area off Crissy is for beach launched boats such as kayaks


Windsurfers and kiters are being told differently, maybe it's because they are not kayaks... They will have very limited access, if any, to park, rig and launch from Crissy during the races. Sure they have a transit lane... but a board or kite at 25MPHs will traverse the lane and be at the red line in about 4 seconds. Talk about short tacking. Yes, you can launch more west than Crissy proper but the wind shadow is much larger the more west you go. In SF proper, Crissy is really the only viable kite launch. Do you really think they will allow a bunch of danglers to launch and land their kites on a beach with a 1000 people?

Just go down to Crissy on a nice typical summer weekend day and see how full the lot is with dog walkers, tourists, kiters and windsurfers... then add AC spectators = cluster fuck getting into and out of that beach/area. It can be a cluster fuck when there's not a major event!


I heard more than kayaks- but to be safe said kayaks since I also think the speed limit anywhere near the course/transit area is going to be slow ( 5 knots ?). I'll keep my ears open.

congrats on your recovery from lead...

#56 dogwatch

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:29 AM

There have been more lead changes at or straight after the first mark than anywhere else.


That is bound to be the case since, except in a pursuit race, overtaking invariably become less frequent as races progress. I am certain that if the first leg was a beat, of a conventional length, that would provide more lead changes.

#57 ~Stingray~

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:54 AM

I am certain that if the first leg was a beat, of a conventional length, that would provide more lead changes.

And yet nothing you ever post proves your unsupportable point....

I love the ACWS's reaching start and the attacking/defending situations immediately after that first mark. But the reach procession to the line at the end has been a bit of a runway. The SF Match course shown looks to eliminate the ACWS-style finish reach, is that right?

#58 yhcranafvr

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:08 AM

If the first leg were a beat, the teams would be optimizing their boats for upwind performance, and as a result we'd end up with bunch of slow multihulls pinching their way up the course, holding out for a boundary to tack. I don't see how thats any better...

Passing or no passing...I can't wait to see the 72s overlapped and bearing off around the first mark at 40 knots with spray flying. Thats what this is all about!

#59 SW Sailor

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:41 AM

Initially I questioned the reaching starts, but gave it the benefit of the doubt thinking these guys just might know how to set up a race and may have thought it through, at least once.

Last summer I was out on a boat watching Coutts and Spithill practicing near Alcatraz. Last start of the day and I thought we were positioned perpendicular to the line for the best view. Turns out we were directly in the layline to the first mark, and both AC45's roared by us on either side by about 10 or 15 feet doing 25 knots. Having a birds-eye view of a reaching start convinced me it has merits.

The boat that wins the start doesn't necessarily hold an advantage for a full leg, and it does force a critical tactical decision after the first mark.

#60 bwana

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:23 AM

Looks like the best view of the entire course might be from TI. As much as I'd love a bleacher seat on the GG Bridge, I'm betting they close the east walkway to all pedestrians on race afternoons.

from http://www.sfgate.co...G1329886494.jpg


Posted Image

and from http://www.americasc...ourse-revealed/

"Following consultation with numerous Bay users, the Coast Guard have issued a draft Special Local Regulation (now in the 90-day public comment phase), that defines a restricted area where we can safely set up our race course area," Craig says.

The restricted area box is expected to be in place for three to four hours a day on scheduled race days.



Note that the course shown is just a generic one.
Here: http://noticeboard.a...-Cup-Match1.pdf (where it countsPosted Image), they have mid-course finish options as well for example.



#61 SW Sailor

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:33 AM

Not so sure about that - you'll be a good distance from the action and at sea level. Alcatraz will provide some great viewing due to the location and height, as will anywhere along the city front. If you opt for Alcatraz bring a jacket.

#62 Liquid

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:26 AM

find/make friends with owners of north facing houses on pac heights, with large screen TVs, fast internet, a fridge/cooler and a bathroom or maybe 6 bathrooms - it is pac heights after all... You're good to go.

I've got a few in my quiver that I'm already warming up...

Won't be bringing my windsurf gear though - unless I take a flyer and head down the coast, cause as there will be no windsurfing off Crissy while 72' winged cats rip around a 1/4 mile from shore. Could always launch from the north tower and buzz the course!!!

#63 dogwatch

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:53 AM

And yet nothing you ever post proves your unsupportable point....


I see. So you snip the words out of the argument and then say I've made no argument. I said:


"Anyone who has done big-fleet racing knows that in general, each mark rounding increases separation because - more or less - only one boat goes around a mark at a time. If you have half a boat length advantage coming into a mark, that turns into a couple of boat lengths on the way out. So putting a mark rounding 15 seconds into the race increases the separation of the boat in front."

Now if you want to actually engage in discussion, how about you respond to the points that are actually being made?

#64 dogwatch

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:00 AM

If the first leg were a beat, the teams would be optimizing their boats for upwind performance,


But I think they will be anyway, since most of the race will be spent beating.

At least however you are showing some here have some knowledge grounded in sailing and can discuss it.

#65 bye bye

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:09 PM


Why do these dense cunts persist with reaching starts?

I assume by the term "dense cunts" you're referring to John Craig and the rest of the challengers who have a voice in what is happening.

My understanding is that in theory, reaching starts precludes the winner of the start from getting an early jump on the race and results in lead changes, which seems to be the case if you've followed the racing to date.

Much simpler than that. In order to guarantee the start time for TV they can't afford to be moving the line around to make it square for an upwind start.

#66 seis

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:24 PM



Why do these dense cunts persist with reaching starts?

I assume by the term "dense cunts" you're referring to John Craig and the rest of the challengers who have a voice in what is happening.

My understanding is that in theory, reaching starts precludes the winner of the start from getting an early jump on the race and results in lead changes, which seems to be the case if you've followed the racing to date.

Much simpler than that. In order to guarantee the start time for TV they can't afford to be moving the line around to make it square for an upwind start.

They can move the starting line and all the marks in seconds.
That's what they have GPS controlled catamarans acting as marks.
If something is not the problem is this.

#67 intp1

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:27 PM

@SWSailor -
"I wouldn't say the water is protected in that area, from either wind or current" - No kidding this course is right in the slot for wind and current
"you will find plenty of wind shifts and gusts" I don't really agree except in two, fairly uncommon conditions on the bay: there could be light, shifty wind if the sea breeze doesn't really switch on, which is not often but can happen in late Sept OR if there is upper, 500 mb system wind, trying to fight the sea breeze, there are sometimes strong backing, and very challenging gusts but I have only experienced that 3 times in 15 years of racing most WEs on the bay. An oft criticized characteristic of summer SF bay sailing is the lack of shifts. Ninety % of the time it will simply blow directly from the gate once it gets going. It might veer somewhat around the city front where they have the finish in the drawing which, Stingray, will be consistent with the reach finish leg. BTW what happened to the idea of going out of the gate?
"Playing the current largely depends on where you are in the cycle and how big the tides and currents are in terms of what your tactics might be." Will the AC 72s really short tack up the cityfront in a flood? -not so sure, having watched them race in Plymouth, maybe their tacking has improved since then but it seemed to me that tacking was slow and a risk. These babies will be screaming around at 30-40 knots and even a 4k current against them will be less of a disadvantage % wise even than the AC 45s. That, combined with the narrow course (perhaps 2 minutes across?), I wouldn't be surprised to see the result being that tacks are largely confined to the edges of the course.


@Dogwatch

Re. boats will extend with increasing mark frequency. All things being equal and uneventful, that might be theoretically the case although part of that effect is that boats are typically faster approaching the bottom mark making the same lead in seconds = a longer lead in boatlengths. But, all transitions are opportunities just as much for the following boat and many lead changes happen, particularly at bottom mark roundings for a whole host of reasons. in my experience that lead boat will lose ground in a significant proportion of instances at the bottom mark, especially if it's close.




#68 jc172528

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:57 AM

Passing or no passing...I can't wait to see the 72s overlapped and bearing off around the first mark at 40 knots with spray flying. Thats what this is all about!


Except they won't be going out in anything close to 40 knots................

#69 Monster Mash

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 05:01 AM


Passing or no passing...I can't wait to see the 72s overlapped and bearing off around the first mark at 40 knots with spray flying. Thats what this is all about!


Except they won't be going out in anything close to 40 knots................



Read his post again

#70 SW Sailor

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:00 AM

"at", "in", whats the differance ?

#71 ncs

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:42 AM

"at", "in", whats the differance ?

That they will be doing at or over 40 in 20?




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