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Teething problems on the VX


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#1 EYESAILOR

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

A face book post says that two rudders failed at Mardi Gras Race Week but a welder had them out by the following day.
Was it a one off or are any changes to rudder assembly going to be made?

#2 intensitysails

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:17 PM

A face book post says that two rudders failed at Mardi Gras Race Week but a welder had them out by the following day.
Was it a one off or are any changes to rudder assembly going to be made?


There was only one failed rudder and it was mine. It failed at a weak point in the rudder head It was repaired overnight locally by a machinist and Brian Bennett so I could sail. I appreciate all the effort and we had a great time Saturday. The blade cracked (where it had to be drilled) Sunday due to the repair. We chose to sail in rather than push it. Brian is already at work making the rudder more robust. It will not change the fact that the VX was a great boat to race especially considering the first time we ever really sailed the boat was the first day of racing. We had the boat in the high teens on the run completely in control and fun! no buyers remorse here at all.

#3 Vela Sailing Supply

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:29 PM

Thursday and Friday were "non sailing" days due to winds in excess of 30 knots. We took our VX out both days and felt extremely secure and stable , even though the big chop of Lake Pontchartrain's lee shore and bounce effect of the waves coming back from the breakers. Our rudder bracket bent open just a little bit, but we were able to come back into the NO Yacht Club without any issues.

The brackets are been evaluated and Bennett Yachting Technologies is already working with the manufacturer of the brackets to kick to come up with a stronger rudder cassette.

If there was a testing lab regatta, definitively was 2012 MGRW.

I think there is some video of the really windy days before racing. Anybody?

#4 hotair

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:38 PM

Brian will probably have to use the Seasure K6 cassette rudder stock.
The VX picture from the Chicago show, appears to show the Seasure Genensis unit designed for the 420 sailboat.
http://www.sea-sure....nd&inbox=Rudder Stock
The Rondar K6 and the VX are about the same size and therefore need the same amount of beef in the steering system.
When a gust hits on one of these boats (Viper / K6/ VX) the helmsman feels it first through the tiller and must quickly yank the boat to a lower heading.
If he's slow on the trigger the boat will quickly be on its ear, going nowhere.
When you catch the puffs correctly, the 20 knot sleigh rides happen.
As the wind drops back down you steer up to maintain speed and wait for the next hit.
In its first season, we've had the Viper both on its side and ripping downwind as if on foils.
Great fun!!!
http://www.sea-sure....ox=Rudder Stock

#5 jh26

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:34 AM

Brian will probably have to use the Seasure K6 cassette rudder stock.
The VX picture from the Chicago show, appears to show the Seasure Genensis unit designed for the 420 sailboat.


Looking at the Seasure photo, it's definitely not the 420 stock on the VX. But it's not the K6 either. Something custom I think.

#6 hotair

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:54 AM

Jay, I knew you would have the skinny.
Keep us up on the latest with the VX.




#7 va bene

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:59 PM

Thursday and Friday were "non sailing" days due to winds in excess of 30 knots. We took our VX out both days and felt extremely secure and stable , even though the big chop of Lake Pontchartrain's lee shore and bounce effect of the waves coming back from the breakers. Our rudder bracket bent open just a little bit, but we were able to come back into the NO Yacht Club without any issues.

The brackets are been evaluated and Bennett Yachting Technologies is already working with the manufacturer of the brackets to kick to come up with a stronger rudder cassette.

If there was a testing lab regatta, definitively was 2012 MGRW.

I think there is some video of the really windy days before racing. Anybody?



The VX one is certainly not the first boat in its category to encounter initial problems with the rudder. Perhaps this could have been prevented by a more rigourous testing program prior to putting the boat on the market. The loads on a rudder of a sportboat with the potential of going clearly faster than 20 knots can be extremely high. A rudder needs to be 100% reliable. Anything less is playing with the safety of the sailors.

#8 couchsurfer

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:05 PM


When a gust hits on one of these boats (Viper / K6/ VX) the helmsman feels it first through the tiller and must quickly yank the boat to a lower heading.

,,,better to see the puff,,or feel it on your face,,hear it with your ears,,and adjust the trim -before- it's effecting the boat,,,,jus'sayin' ;)

...not that a 'foolproof' rudder isn't necessary :)

#9 boneboy

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:07 PM

Attached File  vx one one (640x472).jpg   122.22K   157 downloadsAttached File  vx one two (640x480).jpg   148.15K   174 downloads

Thursday and Friday were "non sailing" days due to winds in excess of 30 knots. We took our VX out both days and felt extremely secure and stable , even though the big chop of Lake Pontchartrain's lee shore and bounce effect of the waves coming back from the breakers. Our rudder bracket bent open just a little bit, but we were able to come back into the NO Yacht Club without any issues.

The brackets are been evaluated and Bennett Yachting Technologies is already working with the manufacturer of the brackets to kick to come up with a stronger rudder cassette.

If there was a testing lab regatta, definitively was 2012 MGRW.

I think there is some video of the really windy days before racing. Anybody?


Rod, here are a couple of pics that I took chasing you on the powerboat.

In all fairness to the VX, it was pretty "big" out there, probably "bigger" than a 17 foot "ballasted dinghy" should be out in.


The real bummer is that their kite was rigged wrong and they never got to fly it. They were doing 18 knts with white sails only. Would have been a blast to see what would have happened if the they were able to fly the kite



db

#10 Mambo Kings

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 10:46 PM

Did someone say big breeze and racing cancelled?


http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be



Attached File  Thumbs Up 2.jpg   119.21K   129 downloads

#11 Timbo

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:29 AM

Yea, it was cancelled here the day that video was shot also.... Sometimes it's better .... and cheaper to say @ the bar. :P

#12 boneboy

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:57 AM

Unless the bar has a mechanical bull..........I'm just sayin

#13 EYESAILOR

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 04:35 PM

There was only one failed rudder and it was mine. It failed at a weak point in the rudder head


Not quite true! VX Rudder Thread

#14 intensitysails

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 04:43 PM


There was only one failed rudder and it was mine. It failed at a weak point in the rudder head


Not quite true! VX Rudder Thread


Not so, completely true. Mine was the only rudder to fail. It failed at the head. Other rudders were drilled as a result to avoid further failures. There were some cracks at the point of drilling and bolting but no failures. A complete fix/redesign to avoid the issue completely going forward is in the works so it is a non issue anyways.

#15 port tack

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 06:08 PM

Just don't understand why someone would take a chance on a VX when the Viper is already established. And just a side note I was the guy pushing to sail that first day!

#16 trenace

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 06:37 PM

One reason would be if usually sailing only 2-up.

#17 Steam Flyer

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:02 PM

Just don't understand why someone would take a chance on a VX when the Viper is already established. And just a side note I was the guy pushing to sail that first day!


Well, why did Bruce Kirby design the Laser when the Sunfish was already established?

Why get a Viper when the Lightning is already established?

Why get a Chevy when Ford is already established?

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Back in the mid-90s I was racing a Lightning but not particularly happy with the boat (too fragile, too complex, too punishing for the crew) and looked hard at getting a Viper but bought a Johnson 18 instead because much of our racing was done off the beach at various venues. The Jn-18 went nowhere. The Viper didn't go much of any where until revived in the mid-2000s and given a carbon rig.

Something has to change or we'd all be sailing replicas of the Nina, Pinta, & Santa Maria
B)

FB- Doug

#18 Jerryd

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:10 PM


Just don't understand why someone would take a chance on a VX when the Viper is already established. And just a side note I was the guy pushing to sail that first day!


Well, why did Bruce Kirby design the Laser when the Sunfish was already established?

Why get a Viper when the Lightning is already established?

Why get a Chevy when Ford is already established?

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Back in the mid-90s I was racing a Lightning but not particularly happy with the boat (too fragile, too complex, too punishing for the crew) and looked hard at getting a Viper but bought a Johnson 18 instead because much of our racing was done off the beach at various venues. The Jn-18 went nowhere. The Viper didn't go much of any where until revived in the mid-2000s and given a carbon rig.

Something has to change or we'd all be sailing replicas of the Nina, Pinta, & Santa Maria
B)

FB- Doug


Comparing a Lightning to a Viper or a Sunfish to a Laser is probably not a fair comparison. Maybe a better one is why the offer VX when the K6 was available and fairly close in nature!
Just a further fragmentation of the available market for these boats!

#19 ekolnskungen

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:15 PM

Rondar might want to do the same trick as RS does here in Europe, drain the market.

#20 intensitysails

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:22 PM

[/quote]

Comparing a Lightning to a Viper or a Sunfish to a Laser is probably not a fair comparison. Maybe a better one is why the offer VX when the K6 was available and fairly close in nature!
Just a further fragmentation of the available market for these boats!
[/quote]

Having sailed my VX I can say it is clearly the next level in a progression of sport boats and sailing. The VX is wider and more open than the K6 and can be sailed with 2 or 3 people. At 19 feet 3 boats can easily go into a shipping container and be sent cost effectively to regattas around the world. The self tacking jib and chines along with many of the design details are an improvement over the Viper. I can go on here but I will leave it to others to mention their thoughts on their VXs.

It is clear that time will tell if there will be a migration to the VX. I do know that of the 8 VXs on the line in New Orleans no one was wishing they were in a different boat. We all really loved racing the VX and learning the boat. I believe all of us had sailed the Viper in the past and no one was wishing they were out in the larger Viper fleet. That says something for a new design!

#21 port tack

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:45 PM

Wow comparing a Lighting to a Viper? Laser to a Sunfish? I mean Viper to a VX. Although the VX is closer to the K6 the K6 does not have a lot of boats sold in the US so it is the same place as VX. From a performance perspective I believe the Fastest Vipers were faster upwind than the VX and downwind very even. Ok if you sail with 2 I understand both most VX's during MGRW had 3. Is there really that many people who plan on shipping their boat to Europe for OD? I personnelly don't care for the self tacking jib. Any just my opinion, not trying to hate on the VX I think it is a very cool boat.

#22 trenace

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:49 PM

Maybe a better one is why the offer VX when the K6 was available and fairly close in nature!
Just a further fragmentation of the available market for these boats!

Why try to do business and have success for yourself if someone else is already having some success?

The K6 was already there: Brian should have left their market share to them, and got himself a bed and rocking chair in the rest home.

Try to win his own share, or expand the market? Fragmentation! How inconsiderate or ill-advised, or bad for the sport. At least one of those.

#23 Steam Flyer

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:02 PM

Comparing a Lightning to a Viper or a Sunfish to a Laser is probably not a fair comparison. Maybe a better one is why the offer VX when the K6 was available and fairly close in nature!
Just a further fragmentation of the available market for these boats!


Well, the Lightning was intended to be a 3 person fast daysailer. It was one of the most brilliant designs Olin Stephens ever did IMHO, but it was not intended to be easily portable (trailered all over) and it was designed in 1936... are we still driving Hudsons and Cords?

The Laser & Sunfish are both singlehand daggerboard cat-rig etc.

Seems like a pretty good basis for comparison is comparable usage, mission profile, however you want to describe it.

The Lightning is a classic and there are many things I love about that boat; however I have no desire to own one or race one in the circuit. I suppose over time, the Viper will attract some of the same "personality types" that hurt the fun of racing a Lightning in a big fleet; but for now it seems like a super fun group of people.

The VX has a somewhat similar "mission profile" but is more flexible, just enough smaller to be more easily portable, and will probably remain less expensive.

I sailed a Viper with the tin rig (back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth) and would like to try both. Not sure I'm going to jump back into serious 1-design racing but these two are ones I have an eye on. To my mind, the decision is not based on which class is bigger but rather which boat is more enjoyable to sail. The Johnson 18 was a super boat and sometimes I wish I still had it, even if there's no class... hey Texas isn't that far away!!
:lol: . :D . :huh:

FB- Doug

#24 intensitysails

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:16 PM

[/quote]
Brian should have left their market share to them, and got himself a bed and rocking chair in the rest home.


[/quote]



Well that is just plain silly.

#25 Jerryd

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:57 PM

I sailed a Viper with the tin rig (back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth) and would like to try both. Not sure I'm going to jump back into serious 1-design racing but these two are ones I have an eye on. To my mind, the decision is not based on which class is bigger but rather which boat is more enjoyable to sail. The Johnson 18 was a super boat and sometimes I wish I still had it, even if there's no class... hey Texas isn't that far away!!
:lol: . :D . :huh:

FB- Doug


News flash Doug! Unless I missed something along the way, they were never supplied with "tin" masts :huh:

#26 Timbo

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:32 PM

News flash Doug! Unless I missed something along the way, they were never supplied with "tin" masts :huh:




That light mtal can that you favorite beverage come packaged in is also refered to as a "Tin Can"

Nothing light at all about those Proctor "Tin" rigs... :ph34r:

#27 trenace

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:38 AM

Well, don't you know that if you are proper British, you are supposed to say "aluminyinium" or something like that for these rigs.

(They objected to how the discoverer of the element named it, and decided they knew better.)

#28 F&B

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:15 AM

Sounds fair enough to me, it is the English language!!?

#29 Viper55

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:45 PM

Sounds fair enough to me, it is the English language!!?



I was at MGRW with my Viper. Weather kept a lot of people from Demo rides, but lots of attention was given them at the marina. The VX is a well thought out boat and the guys that took them out Friday put them in pounding conditions for sure. Brian and his son were on site all weekend ready to help owners with any problems they have. There are only 12-14 boats out there, so there will be some small issues early in the class. The first ten owners are all very good sailors....this class will do well IMHO.

Go VX!

#30 hotair

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:53 PM

Cassette rudders are a nice convenience but there is a weight penalty you just have to accept.
Brian tried to minimize this and MGRW was the first opportunity for the VX to get a good heavy air test.
The SeaSure "K6" cassette might be a slight overkill but it was designed for that size of boat.
I'd rather have a little extra strength in that area.

The other item Brian has minimized is bulb weight.
In the MGRW video, a Viper gets layed over (about 80 degrees) for good half minute and finally comes back up thanks to its 220 lb bulb.
Chute and rig stayed dry.
With 125 lb bulb a VX would have likely put its rig in the water. I'm thinking 175 -180 lbs would be better / safer.
Fortunately, the extruded "aluminium" keel makes for an easy bulb upgrade should it prove to be needed.
And for you Viper owners, a cassette and vertical rudder could be fitted without major (any) rework.
Just thought you might like to know.

#31 oddsailor

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:53 PM

When's the VX going to come to Canada? We need something like that.

#32 trenace

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:29 PM

You know, this will probably sound stupid, but fortunately (?) I'm used to that so won't let it deter me.

Since the bulb is easily removable, and it is not so heavy as to be difficult to handle, why not have a heavy bulb as optional equipment?

Obviously not for racing, but for just going out with the wife, maybe it would be smarter to for those times be at a still-lighter all-up weight as when having a crew of three, but a Viper-like bulb for the confidence of the missus. Or the above-suggested 180 lb anyway.

Easy enough to swap out. A question of course would be whether the structure would still be within a good safety factor. But as that is still pretty light, I'd tend to guess so.

#33 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:35 PM

Cassette rudders are a nice convenience but there is a weight penalty you just have to accept.
Brian tried to minimize this and MGRW was the first opportunity for the VX to get a good heavy air test.
The SeaSure "K6" cassette might be a slight overkill but it was designed for that size of boat.
I'd rather have a little extra strength in that area.

The other item Brian has minimized is bulb weight.
In the MGRW video, a Viper gets layed over (about 80 degrees) for good half minute and finally comes back up thanks to its 220 lb bulb.
Chute and rig stayed dry.
With 125 lb bulb a VX would have likely put its rig in the water. I'm thinking 175 -180 lbs would be better / safer.
Fortunately, the extruded "aluminium" keel makes for an easy bulb upgrade should it prove to be needed.
And for you Viper owners, a cassette and vertical rudder could be fitted without major (any) rework.
Just thought you might like to know.


Where's the MGRW video?

#34 jh26

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:45 PM

Where's the MGRW video?






#35 ducky

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:45 PM

You know, this will probably sound stupid, but fortunately (?) I'm used to that so won't let it deter me.

Since the bulb is easily removable, and it is not so heavy as to be difficult to handle, why not have a heavy bulb as optional equipment?

Obviously not for racing, but for just going out with the wife, maybe it would be smarter to for those times be at a still-lighter all-up weight as when having a crew of three, but a Viper-like bulb for the confidence of the missus. Or the above-suggested 180 lb anyway.

Easy enough to swap out. A question of course would be whether the structure would still be within a good safety factor. But as that is still pretty light, I'd tend to guess so.

really? buy a VX so you can take your wife out for a day sail! LOL







lo

#36 hotair

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:33 PM

If you live in Canada and want a VX, give Brian a call. He is already shipping boats down under, maple leaf models should not be a problem.
You'll be the first on your block to own one.
Or, for an extra 5K you can have a Viper and be part of the growing Ontario fleet.

My point about the bulb is that eventually VX owners will decide if 125 Lbs is enough.
The Viper at 220 Lbs is in a good zone. I have layed mine over twice, just like in the video and am satisfied with the safety factor provided.
Actually my crew was on the tiller and didn't realize, that when it's gusty, you have to be quick on the trigger.

The VX at barely more than half that weight, seems a little light, so time will tell.
If owners want more lead, Brian will surely offer an upgrade / trade in.
Ultra will of course want a fiberglass end cap on his keel and a set of traps.

#37 Rolfe'd

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:50 AM


Just don't understand why someone would take a chance on a VX when the Viper is already established. And just a side note I was the guy pushing to sail that first day!


Well, why did Bruce Kirby design the Laser when the Sunfish was already established?

Why get a Viper when the Lightning is already established?

Why get a Chevy when Ford is already established?

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Back in the mid-90s I was racing a Lightning but not particularly happy with the boat (too fragile, too complex, too punishing for the crew) and looked hard at getting a Viper but bought a Johnson 18 instead because much of our racing was done off the beach at various venues. The Jn-18 went nowhere. The Viper didn't go much of any where until revived in the mid-2000s and given a carbon rig.

Something has to change or we'd all be sailing replicas of the Nina, Pinta, & Santa Maria
B)

FB- Doug


I've raced the Viper before, and sailed the VX today in 15-20. As much as people compare them, they're really quite different boats. The VX feels (and I've heard is) much quicker off the wind and has a more dinghy-like feel upwind. The skiff style mainsheet is really nice and makes it a lot easier to dump air and accelerate in gusty conditions. I think it would be a perfect boat for 2-3 laser sailors to get into and race.

In regards to the rudder, we were using the temporary fixed configuration (plenty strong). Apparently they will be bringing the cassette back once it's stronger.

#38 Vela Sailing Supply

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:13 AM



Just don't understand why someone would take a chance on a VX when the Viper is already established. And just a side note I was the guy pushing to sail that first day!


Well, why did Bruce Kirby design the Laser when the Sunfish was already established?

Why get a Viper when the Lightning is already established?

Why get a Chevy when Ford is already established?

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Back in the mid-90s I was racing a Lightning but not particularly happy with the boat (too fragile, too complex, too punishing for the crew) and looked hard at getting a Viper but bought a Johnson 18 instead because much of our racing was done off the beach at various venues. The Jn-18 went nowhere. The Viper didn't go much of any where until revived in the mid-2000s and given a carbon rig.

Something has to change or we'd all be sailing replicas of the Nina, Pinta, & Santa Maria
B)

FB- Doug


I've raced the Viper before, and sailed the VX today in 15-20. As much as people compare them, they're really quite different boats. The VX feels (and I've heard is) much quicker off the wind and has a more dinghy-like feel upwind. The skiff style mainsheet is really nice and makes it a lot easier to dump air and accelerate in gusty conditions. I think it would be a perfect boat for 2-3 laser sailors to get into and race.

In regards to the rudder, we were using the temporary fixed configuration (plenty strong). Apparently they will be bringing the cassette back once it's stronger.


Amen to that.

They are very different sport boats and each sailor will have preference based on the feeling of either one. The VX will jump on a plane sooner than the Viper and it has that dinghy tone at a much higher scale, yet being very stable.

All the potential rudder issues will be eliminated with the fixed rudder.

#39 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:52 PM

The VX will jump on a plane sooner than the Viper and it has that dinghy tone at a much higher scale, yet being very stable.


Even if that were true ( it's not necessarily, the orig VX displacement has gone up how much? latest figure is? )

it won't matter on the course, the 21 footer will be well ahead at the top mark, displacing upwind will be a clear advantage

post up the Mardi Gras elapsed times pls

#40 intensitysails

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:27 PM

No smoke and mirrors here. Sorry you feel that way. My VX (I am an owner too) will be in RI this Friday. Anyone interested in a test sail that will speak for itself should contact me directly.

#41 EYESAILOR

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:30 PM

Just for the record. I started this thread, not to attack the VX, but to get some insight about the inevitable teething problems of a new boat and to hear how they were being addressed

A face book post says that two rudders failed at Mardi Gras Race Week but a welder had them out by the following day.
Was it a one off or are any changes to rudder assembly going to be made?


I heard (From a VX fan and supporter) that in the heavy air conditions at MGRW, there were problems with 3 rudders, and one of the self tacking jib mechanisms blew up. The jib mechanism wasn't a big deal but I was curious about the rudder which seemed like it needed a rethink. All I got here at first was smoke and mirrors from one of VX reps, that only 1 rudder had problems, but thankfully there was much more open discussion of the issue elsewhere.

The best input I read was from Ultra who actually owns a VX. He gives a good description of his first impression of the boat. Comparing the VX, the K6 and the Viper, I'm going to take Ultra's advice and just get out there and try 'em all.

I have this gut feeling that the people selling the boat are not positioning/describing the product well. Phrases like "very stable" "easier than other sportboats" might lead to disappointment from those looking for a stable platform and might not attract the audience who would pull out their wallets for the excitement of an edge of your seat ride that the Vx can deliver.

I think that Ultra and Corrosion who are pumped about the thrill ride of the VX might be better advocates than the VX reps.

Anyway, I'm going to try one.

#42 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:40 PM

Can anyone post the times, ie how far ahead the Vipes were on time at MGRW

#43 Steam Flyer

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:53 PM

... ...
All the potential rudder issues will be eliminated with the fixed rudder.


Yeah but won't that make it difficult to steer? And contribute to the crew kvetching that the skipper's not doing anything?

{...drum rimshot...}

Sorry, couldn't help it
:D

FB- Doug

#44 Vela Sailing Supply

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:02 AM

It's all good. Some pix:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#45 Streetwise

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:23 AM

We had to do some rudder post work on our Bennett viper, but it had some wear from PO. I'm sure Brian will do what it takes to make the VX stronger in that area if that's what it needs. I want to be like ultra and have a VX next to my viper. I only weigh 155, and my wife is slim, so we wouldn't need as big a third person, which we do have with the viper. I see phrf locally for sport boats on lc, since we have viper, m20, open 5.70, j/70 soon (at least a dealer boat), j/80 depending on how you view it, so a VX could fit right in. Regionally, viper has northeast presence and fun class. There is room for all these boats.

cheers,

Jason

#46 hotair

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:52 PM

So, is the VX going to have a cassette rudder or a non-retracting rudder ?

#47 port tack

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:02 PM


The VX will jump on a plane sooner than the Viper and it has that dinghy tone at a much higher scale, yet being very stable.


Even if that were true ( it's not necessarily, the orig VX displacement has gone up how much? latest figure is? )

it won't matter on the course, the 21 footer will be well ahead at the top mark, displacing upwind will be a clear advantage

post up the Mardi Gras elapsed times pls


I do not have the elapsed times, but did sail my Viper at MGRW. My observations are that when the first 5 Vipers finished it was Easly 10-15 minutes later that the first VX's finished. They started 5 minutes after us.

#48 vxone-d

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:02 PM

So, is the VX going to have a cassette rudder or a non-retracting rudder ?


We are re engineering the rudder cassette with Sea Sure. This will be offered as an option once we have tested fully.
All boats with lifting rudders are being sent replacement fixed rudders at no charge.
The new fixed rudder is now standard on all VX ONE's. The pintle/ gudgeon geometry is identical.

The submersed profile is the same on both rudders, and will be class controlled.

Ultimately this will provide sensible options for most all venues without compromising performance.

Brian

#49 EYESAILOR

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:19 PM



The VX will jump on a plane sooner than the Viper and it has that dinghy tone at a much higher scale, yet being very stable.


Even if that were true ( it's not necessarily, the orig VX displacement has gone up how much? latest figure is? )

it won't matter on the course, the 21 footer will be well ahead at the top mark, displacing upwind will be a clear advantage

post up the Mardi Gras elapsed times pls


I do not have the elapsed times, but did sail my Viper at MGRW. My observations are that when the first 5 Vipers finished it was Easly 10-15 minutes later that the first VX's finished. They started 5 minutes after us.


As Ultra mentioned elsewhere, the leading VXs made up time with some of the inexperienced Vipers.

I'm not sure that the relative speed difference is so important. Viper with the longer waterline would expect to have a bit more pace.

I think its down to which kind of sport boat you want. VX sounds bit more along the edgy spectrum. Someone described it as the Viagra of the small sport boats. So it will depend on how much Viagra my honey can take!

Sorry Intensity,no offense, but the smoke and mirrors did piss me off. I'm over it now.

I started the thread with a fair question and then sat on the sidelines. Brian has answered it.

One Design fleet racing is the other consideration. Like everyone else I cant help notice the 30+ Melges 20s at Miami, the 40+ Vipers at Charleston Race Week and the launch of the J70 claiming 100 boats sold. It is going to be a lot harder to launch another one design sportboat now than it was 5 years ago when the M20 came out and the Viper had its rebirth. Not impossible, but if you dont acknowledge the challenge, you are not being realistic.

But, I go along with the other posts who say that we need new designs and new builders to push us forward and challenge the status quo , so I am looking forward to seeing the VX in person. Brian pushed the envelope when he brought out the Viper and here he is pushing the envelope again. Whether the VX succeeds or fails, he has earned a place in the history of sport boat development in the US.

#50 Vela Sailing Supply

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:35 PM




The VX will jump on a plane sooner than the Viper and it has that dinghy tone at a much higher scale, yet being very stable.


Even if that were true ( it's not necessarily, the orig VX displacement has gone up how much? latest figure is? )

it won't matter on the course, the 21 footer will be well ahead at the top mark, displacing upwind will be a clear advantage

post up the Mardi Gras elapsed times pls


I do not have the elapsed times, but did sail my Viper at MGRW. My observations are that when the first 5 Vipers finished it was Easly 10-15 minutes later that the first VX's finished. They started 5 minutes after us.


As Ultra mentioned elsewhere, the leading VXs made up time with some of the inexperienced Vipers.

I'm not sure that the relative speed difference is so important. Viper with the longer waterline would expect to have a bit more pace.

I think its down to which kind of sport boat you want. VX sounds bit more along the edgy spectrum. Someone described it as the Viagra of the small sport boats. So it will depend on how much Viagra my honey can take!

Sorry Intensity,no offense, but the smoke and mirrors did piss me off. I'm over it now.

I started the thread with a fair question and then sat on the sidelines. Brian has answered it.

One Design fleet racing is the other consideration. Like everyone else I cant help notice the 30+ Melges 20s at Miami, the 40+ Vipers at Charleston Race Week and the launch of the J70 claiming 100 boats sold. It is going to be a lot harder to launch another one design sportboat now than it was 5 years ago when the M20 came out and the Viper had its rebirth. Not impossible, but if you dont acknowledge the challenge, you are not being realistic.

But, I go along with the other posts who say that we need new designs and new builders to push us forward and challenge the status quo , so I am looking forward to seeing the VX. Brian pushed the envelope when he brought out the Viper and here he is pushing the envelope again. He has earned a place in the history of sport boat development in the US.


It's a free forum and all useful information and opinions must be shared. As you say, there is a challange, there are sporties or similar types of boats blooming and each one will fit in particular type of sailing crowd, even venues. Remember the era of the Flying Scot, Thistles, Highlanders, Daysailers, etc. I am not comparing them boat to boat, I am comparing the trend. I do think that in this particular area of the market, the differences are well marked and each boat will fit particular needs. You just need to go and try what each one has to offer.

I come from a Viper 640 background and love it. It is a great boat. I believe everyone should approach the new designs with an open mind and give it a chance. At the end of the day they are all fun...you just need to pick that one that left the bigger smile on your face.

BTW, if you are around the South, come to Dallas and sail on VX #110 with us.

#51 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:37 PM

Good post EYE. I think Brian has once again gone on a flyer, and once again, he has a hell of a boat. Assuming the North American trend away from bigger 1D and handicap boats and toward smaller trailerable and junior-friendly sporties and dinghies continues to accelerate (and I have no reason to think it won't), the VX is positioned somewhat uniquely amongst the crowd as the lightest/cheapest of the bunch. And at least from the hull I saw, build quality is at least as good as any of 'em.

Going for a no-holds-barred boat test in a few weeks I think. Right brian?

#52 schobidoo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:30 PM

Good post EYE. I think Brian has once again gone on a flyer, and once again, he has a hell of a boat. Assuming the North American trend away from bigger 1D and handicap boats and toward smaller trailerable and junior-friendly sporties and dinghies continues to accelerate (and I have no reason to think it won't), the VX is positioned somewhat uniquely amongst the crowd as the lightest/cheapest of the bunch. And at least from the hull I saw, build quality is at least as good as any of 'em.

Going for a no-holds-barred boat test in a few weeks I think. Right brian?



Lightest? currently yes
Cheapest? rather not: VX1: approx. 30000$; K6: 22500$ (including delivery)

#53 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:32 PM


Good post EYE. I think Brian has once again gone on a flyer, and once again, he has a hell of a boat. Assuming the North American trend away from bigger 1D and handicap boats and toward smaller trailerable and junior-friendly sporties and dinghies continues to accelerate (and I have no reason to think it won't), the VX is positioned somewhat uniquely amongst the crowd as the lightest/cheapest of the bunch. And at least from the hull I saw, build quality is at least as good as any of 'em.

Going for a no-holds-barred boat test in a few weeks I think. Right brian?



Lightest? currently yes
Cheapest? rather not: VX1: approx. 30000$; K6: 22500$ (including delivery)



I stand corrected! Very nice price for the K6, I like that one too but makes me feel like Gulliver amongst the lilliputians

#54 whatchange

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:55 PM



Good post EYE. I think Brian has once again gone on a flyer, and once again, he has a hell of a boat. Assuming the North American trend away from bigger 1D and handicap boats and toward smaller trailerable and junior-friendly sporties and dinghies continues to accelerate (and I have no reason to think it won't), the VX is positioned somewhat uniquely amongst the crowd as the lightest/cheapest of the bunch. And at least from the hull I saw, build quality is at least as good as any of 'em.

Going for a no-holds-barred boat test in a few weeks I think. Right brian?



Lightest? currently yes
Cheapest? rather not: VX1: approx. 30000$; K6: 22500$ (including delivery)

I stand corrected! Very nice price for the K6, I like that one too but makes me feel like Gulliver amongst the lilliputians


$$/kts AND boatspeed/TWS = VX is big bang for the bucks. Here is my boat at 18.3kts on Pontchatrain. Very easy at this speed.

Attached Files



#55 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:20 PM



The VX will jump on a plane sooner than the Viper and it has that dinghy tone at a much higher scale, yet being very stable.


Even if that were true ( it's not necessarily, the orig VX displacement has gone up how much? latest figure is? )

it won't matter on the course, the 21 footer will be well ahead at the top mark, displacing upwind will be a clear advantage

post up the Mardi Gras elapsed times pls


I do not have the elapsed times, but did sail my Viper at MGRW. My observations are that when the first 5 Vipers finished it was Easly 10-15 minutes later that the first VX's finished. They started 5 minutes after us.

I expected that


some things involving 'marketing' are rather like pulling teeth around here
  • i.e the 'real' price of an m24 ready to race (still not out)
  • speed of an m20
  • # of crew/weight and hiking on a j/70 (still taboo)
  • ballast on a j/70 (still won't say)
  • speed of a VX

Anarchy was meant to a place these were discussed

what is the weight of the VX now

#56 jh26

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:24 AM

some things involving 'marketing' are rather like pulling teeth around here

  • speed of a VX


We can't give you data we simply don't have. One Design races in the US rarely record elapsed times - it's not like anyone is keeping it secret. Surely we'll have some races on the same start line at some point this summer - we're just getting the seasons started over here. In the meantime, this is the data we DO have for the VX speed. Computer calculated VPP guesses, FWIW.

http://vxonedesignracing.com/vxodr/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/VX-polar-graph.pdf

Posted Image

As for the weight, I haven't weighed one. I know it's no big deal for two guys to lift up the rear by hand to install the bottom cover, but I suspect you're wanting more detail than that...

#57 narecet

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:53 AM

And unfortunately (I'm not commenting specifically on the VX at all, but just a general problem) when getting a personal report on speed from instantaneous GPS, that can be flaky. More than a few odd reports have been made over time.

#58 EYESAILOR

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:55 PM


Good post EYE. I think Brian has once again gone on a flyer, and once again, he has a hell of a boat. Assuming the North American trend away from bigger 1D and handicap boats and toward smaller trailerable and junior-friendly sporties and dinghies continues to accelerate (and I have no reason to think it won't), the VX is positioned somewhat uniquely amongst the crowd as the lightest/cheapest of the bunch. And at least from the hull I saw, build quality is at least as good as any of 'em.

Going for a no-holds-barred boat test in a few weeks I think. Right brian?



Lightest? currently yes
Cheapest? rather not: VX1: approx. 30000$; K6: 22500$ (including delivery)



I think we can narrow it down. Its not the cheapest. It depends how you define lightest. More accurately,the VX has the smallest bulb with 40% less ballast than the K6.


K6 : Price: $22,500 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 395 lbs Total Weight 615 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 220 lbs
VX : Price $30,135 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 415 lbs Total Weight 550 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 135 lbs


VX weight was suprising. The design weight was 385lbs, but the VX built by Edgewater is said to be 550lbs.

#59 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:39 PM

see Rodger Martin design was involved, this is good due diligence

Who was the partner in the 640 design I wonder ?

#60 schoonerman

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:10 AM

Lightest? currently yes
Cheapest? rather not: VX1: approx. 30000$; K6: 22500$ (including delivery)


I think we can narrow it down. Its not the cheapest. It depends how you define lightest. More accurately,the VX has the smallest bulb with 40% less ballast than the K6.


K6 : Price: $22,500 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 395 lbs Total Weight 615 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 220 lbs
VX : Price $30,135 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 415 lbs Total Weight 550 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 135 lbs


VX weight was suprising. The design weight was 385lbs, but the VX built by Edgewater is said to be 550lbs.


K6 is 616 lbs (sailing weight) and bulb is 275. Boat weight ex-bulb (with fittings) is 341.

#61 EYESAILOR

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:18 AM





I think we can narrow it down. Its not the cheapest. It depends how you define lightest. More accurately,the VX has the smallest bulb with 40% less ballast than the K6.


K6 : Price: $22,500 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 395 lbs Total Weight 615 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 220 lbs
VX : Price $30,135 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 415 lbs Total Weight 550 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 135 lbs


VX weight was suprising. The design weight was 385lbs, but the VX built by Edgewater is said to be 550lbs.


K6 is 616 lbs (sailing weight)


The day that Rondar can build a 600lb+ boat with a tolerance of +/- one pound, then we can quibble about whether it is 615 or 616 lbs.

and bulb is 275. Boat weight ex-bulb (with fittings) is 341.


Are you sure that is the bulb and not the whole keel? Eye have an EYE for detail.

I take your point that the differance in keel weight between VX's hollow aluminum keel and the K6s solid composite keel is even greater than the difference in bulb weight, so the K6s hull weight is probably even lighter than the VX hull weight. But you cannot compare 341 with 415. That would be inaccurate.

Anyway, this weight stuff is mind boggingly boring and Im sorry I jumped in. A day when the K6 and the VX can be compared side by side on the water would be very interesting.

#62 ultraracer613um

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:35 PM

Quick fact-check; when you compare VX and K6 pricing i think it would be more accurate to use their standard price, not a temporary fleet discount.

If they dropped their standard price to 23K i know a bunch of viper advocates that would be screaming bloody murder since rondar's getting 34K for one of those things.

Sounds like the first VX is on her way up to new England with another boat just sold in Texas and several more new orders in the Southeast. B's doing it right - he's got a nice product but is going over the top to support buyers and has signed up some solid "no bullshit" reps. I cant say enough about the quality of the product and attention to detail. Right up to making sure the spreaders are all drilled the same (inside joke for Schoonerman and Crackhead). These boat's are going to be stiff and competitive in 20 years, as the vipers brian built using proper laminates and core are proving to be.

For his effort and caring attitude alone, i wish him the best of success.



Good post EYE. I think Brian has once again gone on a flyer, and once again, he has a hell of a boat. Assuming the North American trend away from bigger 1D and handicap boats and toward smaller trailerable and junior-friendly sporties and dinghies continues to accelerate (and I have no reason to think it won't), the VX is positioned somewhat uniquely amongst the crowd as the lightest/cheapest of the bunch. And at least from the hull I saw, build quality is at least as good as any of 'em.

Going for a no-holds-barred boat test in a few weeks I think. Right brian?



Lightest? currently yes
Cheapest? rather not: VX1: approx. 30000$; K6: 22500$ (including delivery)



I think we can narrow it down. Its not the cheapest. It depends how you define lightest. More accurately,the VX has the smallest bulb with 40% less ballast than the K6.


K6 : Price: $22,500 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 395 lbs Total Weight 615 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 220 lbs
VX : Price $30,135 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 415 lbs Total Weight 550 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 135 lbs


VX weight was suprising. The design weight was 385lbs, but the VX built by Edgewater is said to be 550lbs.



#63 schoonerman

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:04 PM






I think we can narrow it down. Its not the cheapest. It depends how you define lightest. More accurately,the VX has the smallest bulb with 40% less ballast than the K6.


K6 : Price: $22,500 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 395 lbs Total Weight 615 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 220 lbs
VX : Price $30,135 Boat Weight (ex bulb) 415 lbs Total Weight 550 lbs Ballast (Bulb) 135 lbs


VX weight was suprising. The design weight was 385lbs, but the VX built by Edgewater is said to be 550lbs.


K6 is 616 lbs (sailing weight)


The day that Rondar can build a 600lb+ boat with a tolerance of +/- one pound, then we can quibble about whether it is 615 or 616 lbs.

and bulb is 275. Boat weight ex-bulb (with fittings) is 341.


Are you sure that is the bulb and not the whole keel? Eye have an EYE for detail.

I take your point that the differance in keel weight between VX's hollow aluminum keel and the K6s solid composite keel is even greater than the difference in bulb weight, so the K6s hull weight is probably even lighter than the VX hull weight. But you cannot compare 341 with 415. That would be inaccurate.

Anyway, this weight stuff is mind boggingly boring and Im sorry I jumped in. A day when the K6 and the VX can be compared side by side on the water would be very interesting.


You're right Eye. I should have said 'keel' weight is 275. My bad. I 'think' the desing weight of the K6 was intended to be 600. I have the 616 as sailing weight as this is what my boat weighs sitting on the hoist with all the stuff on it ready to sail.

You're in luck, I think that day is coming. Sailing World is trying to organize a sportboat shootout. I think it'll be a hoot. Be nice to get them all on the line. We are trying to get either the K1 or proposed K2 singlehanded sporty there too.

Ultra....our standard price on the K6 is $24,995 complete with Norths and Trailer. The 10% discount is our standard full container discount. Vipers are afforded this same discount as a single order for a full container load (4 boats). Getting full container orders/delivery, etc is much more efficient for us so we pass on those efficiency dollars.

I'm not even going to start talking about how many Rondar boats that have been built over the past 35 years are still in the dinghy park and used as daily sailors....needless to say, it's a really big number. MIT has spent loads of time researching the best boat for their program, has invested money and faith in what we do and I guarantee Fran is a VERY discerning sailing program manager with shitloads of experience. We're doing an excellent job. Nary I point out too, Brian isn't building the VX. Don't get me wrong, the builder he's using is doing a fine job. Teething problems are part of the process. Building boats is really pretty easy, particularly after building a few thousand. Selling them...well, therein lies the job. It's all about being here 35 years later...we've done that part.

#64 Mambo Kings

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:20 PM

The fun loving boys and girls of the Viper fleet respectfully request to be left out of the shit fight between the VX and the K6.



We are on our way to Charleston where the weather is warm,the breeze is blowing, the rum drinks are cold, the parties rock, the girls are smiling and the keyboards are left behind.

VMK





#65 schoonerman

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:34 PM

Could you explain to me how they can sell a K6 for 25K but have to charge 10K (about 33%) more for a viper? Shame. Is that the classes reward for creating such demand in spite of build / service issues over the past several years? Dont give me any crap about the viper being more expensive to build.. painfully obvious that's not the case after sticking my head in the cockpit of both boats.



Hmmmmmm....maybe drink decaf? :lol:

Viper is more expensive. Bigger parts, a pricier BOM and lots of misc fees. If you look at the VX price, it proves this. It sits in the middle of the K6 and Viper in both price and size.

VX = 18% more cost than a K6
Viper = 29% more than a K6

#66 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:10 PM

I like 'em all, and am looking forward to sailing the VX next week, and to watching the Viper action in two.

#67 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:18 PM

The vipers' only about 100 lbs heavier (excluding the first run of rondars) so material cost is incidental. BOM, i'll ease up on the decaf if you share a bit of what you've been smoking ;-)

100 pounds = 13% of the viper's weight. Plus labor.

Seems reasonable. Not too many people thinking they're getting gouged with any of these boats, not when it costs 50 large for a M20 and 45 for a J/70, with both slower and heavier than the Viper and probably VX...

#68 schoonerman

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:41 PM

The vipers' only about 100 lbs heavier (excluding the first run of rondars) so material cost is incidental. BOM, i'll ease up on the decaf if you share a bit of what you've been smoking ;-)


Drug Testing...part of the whole captain gig. No smoking for me....30 years now. B)

Material cost is incidental as long as you're not buying foam, resin or harken blocks for bigger loads :lol:

For example, the Viper Harken Kit is 30% more expensive than the K6.

Seriously Ultra, come sail the K6. It's a fun, albeit, very dinghy-like boat. While you're at it, come sail Tyler's 505 too. He's done a nice job rigging it up!

#69 ultraracer613um

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:18 PM

I'm all over it dude.



The vipers' only about 100 lbs heavier (excluding the first run of rondars) so material cost is incidental. BOM, i'll ease up on the decaf if you share a bit of what you've been smoking ;-)


Drug Testing...part of the whole captain gig. No smoking for me....30 years now. B)

Material cost is incidental as long as you're not buying foam, resin or harken blocks for bigger loads :lol:

For example, the Viper Harken Kit is 30% more expensive than the K6.

Seriously Ultra, come sail the K6. It's a fun, albeit, very dinghy-like boat. While you're at it, come sail Tyler's 505 too. He's done a nice job rigging it up!



#70 schoonerman

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:37 PM

I'm all over it dude.




The vipers' only about 100 lbs heavier (excluding the first run of rondars) so material cost is incidental. BOM, i'll ease up on the decaf if you share a bit of what you've been smoking ;-)


Drug Testing...part of the whole captain gig. No smoking for me....30 years now. B)

Material cost is incidental as long as you're not buying foam, resin or harken blocks for bigger loads :lol:

For example, the Viper Harken Kit is 30% more expensive than the K6.

Seriously Ultra, come sail the K6. It's a fun, albeit, very dinghy-like boat. While you're at it, come sail Tyler's 505 too. He's done a nice job rigging it up!


Even Better...come sail the International Cup late October at AYC. There will be 20+ K6's on the line with some great sailors. Last regatta was filled with 505 Champs, Laser Master Champs, Bill Tripp, Bill Hardesty...I'll get you a boat for free or I'll crew for you on my boat! No yellin' at me though...I'll trim the kite when I damn well please :P




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