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ISAF storm jib 'visible color' requirement


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#1 Estar

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:52 PM

I was curious who noticed that the new 2012 ISAF storm jib requirement for minimum 50% surface area in high visibility color, and what anyone plans to do about it - already have 50%, getting a new storm jib, sewing on new/more color patches, or ignoring rule?


4.26.2 High Visibility
a) Every storm jib shall either be of highly-visible coloured material (eg dayglo pink, orange or yellow) or have a highly-visible coloured patch at least 50% of the area of the sail (up to a maximum diameter of 3m) added on each side;



#2 Vorwaerts

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:28 PM

I was curious who noticed that the new 2012 ISAF storm jib requirement for minimum 50% surface area in high visibility color, and what anyone plans to do about it - already have 50%, getting a new storm jib, sewing on new/more color patches, or ignoring rule?


4.26.2 High Visibility
a) Every storm jib shall either be of highly-visible coloured material (eg dayglo pink, orange or yellow) or have a highly-visible coloured patch at least 50% of the area of the sail (up to a maximum diameter of 3m) added on each side;




Is that a new requirement? Moste of the storm sails I have seen so far are orange or at least have some orange badges.
The one exception I remember was on the Mumm30. We ended up spraying it with marking paint from a hardware store to pass the measurement.

#3 v-max

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:00 PM

I can see the waiver coming now on every NOR...

Let's just keep pricing ocean racing out of everybody's reach and see how many ISAF fans will be kicking around at the end. F me!

Besides, isn't "white" a high visibility colour??? Ya, I know, I know...Posted Image

#4 Evo

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:03 PM

Besides, isn't "white" a high visibility colour??? Ya, I know, I know...Posted Image


what colour is mostly seen at sea level when the breeze goes plus 50?.....what colour are breaking waves?

#5 Potter

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:07 PM

12 years of offshore racing and every boat I have ever sailed on the storm jib has been high viz orange. Certainly it has been in RORC rules for a very long time.

#6 PonderousPelican

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:07 PM

So why in hell would you make a storm jib out of any color that wasn't highly visible?

#7 Estar

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:29 PM

Is that a new requirement? Moste of the storm sails I have seen so far are orange or at least have some orange badges.


There was previously a recommendation rather than a requirement, and the prior recommendation said "a patch" and not 50% of the surface area.

So, I am curious how people plan to meet this?

#8 Vorwaerts

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:36 PM

So, I am curious how people plan to meet this?


Like I said earlier we simply painted your white one, and it was accepted from the measurers (Tour Voile). I can not comment on how good this solution is if you are going to use it in a real gale. But I am quite sure that there is good enough paint available such that you do not necessarily need through away your existing sail.

#9 Greyhawk

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:03 AM

So, I am curious how people plan to meet this?


I asked my sailmaker to quote me a new storm jib.

I had previously tried spray-painting part of my old storm jib with fluorescent orange spray paint, but it didn't take long for the paint to start flaking off.

Last year I applied some patches of high-vis orange insignia cloth, but it's no where near 50% of the sail's area.

#10 Bulbhunter

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:10 AM

12 years of offshore racing and every boat I have ever sailed on the storm jib has been high viz orange. Certainly it has been in RORC rules for a very long time.


LOL I was thinking the same. Since when was this new news?

#11 GLG

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:10 AM

Timely issue. This just published by the Newport Bermuda Race organizers yesterday:


Bermuda Race Sail Regulation Amended


John Osmond, chairman of the Bermuda Race Organizing Committee, announced on February 28 that entrants in the 2012 Newport Bermuda Race are no longer required to carry storm jibs that have orange or other highly visible colors. The race rules published in January include this requirement, yet compliance is not practical at this time due to a shortage of suitable materials. Storm jibs continue to be a race requirement. Highly visible storm jibs can identify boats in times of low visibility.
The relevant regulation, 4.26.2 (High Visibility), is in the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations, including US Sailing and Bermuda Race Organizing Committee Prescriptions for 2012-13, posted in the 2012 Rules & Regs Index .
The US Sailing Safety at Sea Committee is reviewing making highly visible storm jibs a recommendation rather than a requirement for 2012. Osmond said that should that effort not succeed, the Bermuda Race Organizing Committee will amend its rules to make highly visibility storm jibs a recommendation for the 2012 Bermuda Race.

#12 Bulbhunter

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:11 AM


So, I am curious how people plan to meet this?


I asked my sailmaker to quote me a new storm jib.

I had previously tried spray-painting part of my old storm jib with fluorescent orange spray paint, but it didn't take long for the paint to start flaking off.

Last year I applied some patches of high-vis orange insignia cloth, but it's no where near 50% of the sail's area.


Try the rubber type paint the standard stuff doesn't flex hence why it breaks and flakes off.

#13 Estar

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:19 AM


12 years of offshore racing and every boat I have ever sailed on the storm jib has been high viz orange. Certainly it has been in RORC rules for a very long time.


LOL I was thinking the same. Since when was this new news?


I just looked up the RORC regs and they list this rule in red indicating it is new and a change from the previous 2011 rule. I could not find the prior RORC rule on their website - do you know what it was in 2011? For the ISAF in 2011 this there was a recommendation (not a requirement) for "a high visibility patch" (not 50% of the surface area).

Try the rubber type paint the standard stuff doesn't flex hence why it breaks and flakes off.


Brand/source recommendation - have you actually used it or just speculating?

So why in hell would you make a storm jib out of any color that wasn't highly visible?


Well, if you are using dacron, the available hig vis dacron cloth is inferior to white. If you are using spectra laminate there is no high vis cloth available. If you are using patches over white cloth (dacron or spectra), you are adding plys (never a great thing to do for shape) and weight and bulk. None of that a complaint about the reg, just a explination why many people have a white storm jib with about a 1m circular high res bullseye on both sides, which used to meet the old ISAF recommendation but does not meet the new requirement.

#14 v-max

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:21 AM

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Besides, isn't "white" a high visibility colour??? Ya, I know, I know...Posted Image


what colour is mostly seen at sea level when the breeze goes plus 50?.....what colour are breaking waves?


Hence the "I know, I know" part. I run an ocean race here and every time ISAF changes the regs, guys like me have to do the explaining/rationalizing etc.
I guess I was just venting a bit and I'm not saying that these are bad ideas. But ocean racing has barriers to entry that are insurmountable to many people already and we should be careful about what is a realistic proposal.
More regs is like buying more life insurance, how much is too much? When is risk fully mitigated? Can it be fully mitigated? At what cost?

#15 MSA

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:25 AM

Cough and buy a 8-10oz dayglow orange storm jib that is actually constructed to hold up in that 45-50 knots..

For a 35 footer it costs about $900. Every owner I have ever met will spend the required money on safety.

#16 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:52 AM

Ask yourself what percentage of the entire cost of your boat is the price of a new storm jib?

#17 Estar

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:15 AM

Ask yourself what percentage of the entire cost of your boat is the price of a new storm jib?



hey, please, the OP was not questioning or complaining about the requirement. it was how do you plan to best meet this new requirement?

Is there a paint that works well - brand/model?

If you want to recover 50% of both sides of an existing jib - working on a curved surface and ending with 3 plys sewn together - will the shape then likely suck?

Now on the requirement :) Honestly most boats that are asking for SAR are either bare poled or dis-masted. And its dark about 50% of the time when no-one can see the high vis colors. So, the high vis storm jib probably is in fact not all that useful. Bright color on the deck and top third of the mast would be more useful. But its the new rule and it can't hurt, so I am just trying to scope out teh best most effective way to accomplish it. I hope its not throwing out a perfectly good storm jib, but if it is, so be it.

#18 JSoup

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:25 AM

Are you suggesting replacing a never used, in the vast majority of cases, sail due to color? We have a 2004 set of storm sails that we bought used, that met the requirement until this year, that are white dacron. We won't be spending $2,000 to make them orange. I think I'll buy a case of Highlighter brand markers and let my kids go wild.

Cough and buy a 8-10oz dayglow orange storm jib that is actually constructed to hold up in that 45-50 knots..

For a 35 footer it costs about $900. Every owner I have ever met will spend the required money on safety.



#19 Alysum

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:48 AM

Storm jib and try sail on the 52 I sail on is half white / half orange (don't ask why) - must check whether the orange is at least 50%...

#20 haligonian winterr

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:15 AM



Besides, isn't "white" a high visibility colour??? Ya, I know, I know...Posted Image


what colour is mostly seen at sea level when the breeze goes plus 50?.....what colour are breaking waves?


Hence the "I know, I know" part. I run an ocean race here and every time ISAF changes the regs, guys like me have to do the explaining/rationalizing etc.
I guess I was just venting a bit and I'm not saying that these are bad ideas. But ocean racing has barriers to entry that are insurmountable to many people already and we should be careful about what is a realistic proposal.
More regs is like buying more life insurance, how much is too much? When is risk fully mitigated? Can it be fully mitigated? At what cost?


Just out of curiosity which one?

HW

#21 v-max

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:23 AM




Besides, isn't "white" a high visibility colour??? Ya, I know, I know...Posted Image


what colour is mostly seen at sea level when the breeze goes plus 50?.....what colour are breaking waves?


Hence the "I know, I know" part. I run an ocean race here and every time ISAF changes the regs, guys like me have to do the explaining/rationalizing etc.
I guess I was just venting a bit and I'm not saying that these are bad ideas. But ocean racing has barriers to entry that are insurmountable to many people already and we should be careful about what is a realistic proposal.
More regs is like buying more life insurance, how much is too much? When is risk fully mitigated? Can it be fully mitigated? At what cost?


Just out of curiosity which one?

HW


RHSP

#22 MSA

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:34 AM

Sorry but I cant help wonder how this is different to our current rules of 4.24.. specifically

4.24.3a. Every trysail and storm jib shall either be of highly visible coloured material (eg dayglow pink orange or yellow) or have a highly visible coloured patch added on each side

A trysail or a storm jib purchased after July 2005 shall be made entirely of highly visible coloured material. Patches shall be at least 20% of the area of the sail.


When this rule came in 95% of people purchased a new sail as that much insignia or the effort of ink was too much. I dont see this as an issue. (dont try ink.. no mater how permanent it is.. sitting wet in a bilge for 300nm makes the bilge water a nasty colour)

As as for saying people that need help wont have one up... think carefully... Ive use them a number of times while racing and deliveries. If shit got real, id rather it be Pink or orange than White!

#23 Scarecrow

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:18 AM

I believe durepox works on sails. Get a tin of orange and whatever you have left can go on the keel to make your biat faster.

#24 Estar

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:30 PM

Sorry but I cant help wonder how this is different to our current rules of 4.24.. specifically

4.24.3a. Every trysail and storm jib shall either be of highly visible coloured material (eg dayglow pink orange or yellow) or have a highly visible coloured patch added on each side

Well, my current storm jib has a high vis patch and meets the old recommendation, but the patch is NOT 50% of the surface area, so it does not meet the new rule.

When this rule came in 95% of people purchased a new sail as that much insignia or the effort of ink was too much. I dont see this as an issue. (dont try ink.. no mater how permanent it is.. sitting wet in a bilge for 300nm makes the bilge water a nasty colour)

Terrific, I am glad to hear you don't think it is an issue to have to throw away a perfectly good sail, that met last year's rule, that already has high vis patches on it. That will make the sail makers very happy. BUT, it will continue to drive races in the USA away from using the ISAF SR's at all, and will add one more straw to the camel's back for the 'regular guys who want to race'.

As as for saying people that need help wont have one up... think carefully... Ive use them a number of times while racing and deliveries. If shit got real, id rather it be Pink or orange than White!

Terrific, you can always pick to have a high vis jib. It is always the owners and skippers right and responsibility to make the choices they feel are proper. But it is questionable to make a requirement, that forces people to throw away perfectly good sails, which has no sound foundation in increasing safety. Can you point to even one recent incident where having high vis sails would have saved a boat or a life . . . and further where a 20% patch per the old recommendation was not enough?

Just as an aside, I am guessing I have more hours under storm jib than you do. As I said above, you can't see the colors at night and if I am calling for an SAR I will probably be dismasted or barepoles. My personal sense is that the 'real' benefit of the high vis sails is better media coverage/pictures/video.


I believe durepox works on sails. Get a tin of orange and whatever you have left can go on the keel to make your biat faster.


Thanks much. Have you used it or seen it used on a sail?

#25 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:31 PM

Get Fluro orange fabric paint from a sung writer. Works a charm

#26 Estar

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:41 PM

Get Fluro orange fabric paint from a sung writer. Works a charm


thanks does it run or flake in actual use (salt spray and flogging etc)?

#27 Carboninit

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:50 PM

Next time you are passing a ship have a look at the bridge and the high vis paint at the top of it . If you dont want to be seen ,fine dont expect the rescue team to pick you up . Every offshore yacht should have high vis sail and paint the top of the mast high vis ,then maybe you might be spotted.Dont piss around with safety.Do it properly.

#28 Estar

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:08 PM

Next time you are passing a ship have a look at the bridge and the high vis paint at the top of it . If you dont want to be seen ,fine dont expect the rescue team to pick you up . Every offshore yacht should have high vis sail and paint the top of the mast high vis ,then maybe you might be spotted.Dont piss around with safety.Do it properly.


I already have a 3m high high-vis band painted just above the fractional masthead!

But that's not the question here - the question is how best to meet this new ISAF requirement! Does one have to throw away a perfectly good sail, that in fact already has a high vis patch on it, just not 50% of the surface area, or is there another good option? So far people some poeple have suggested paint and others have said paint can pass the inspection but sucks in actual use - and I want to be able to actually use my storm jib!

#29 Greyhawk

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:31 PM

Yeah, in my case the paint flaked off, leaving tiny flecks of fluor orange everywhere, but that had no impact on the usability of the sail -- it still worked as a sail just as well (or poorly) as it did before the paint.

#30 Estar

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:46 PM


Get Fluro orange fabric paint from a sung writer. Works a charm


thanks does it run or flake in actual use (salt spray and flogging etc)?


I was just looking at this and the instructions say: "USE : For paint on fabric (natural fibres e.g. cotton)."

So, does it actually stick to dacron or spectra sails?


#31 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:54 PM

In a lot of places sail numbers are painted on. The right fabric paint works. Sorry but I am unsure of the brand. We have done a storm jib and tri sail on a 60 footer and they are both seem OK. Never used either sail in anger though.

#32 Presuming Ed

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:40 PM

I think I'll buy a case of Highlighter brand markers and let my kids go wild.


Pot of ink and a mop?

#33 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:18 AM

I think I'll buy a case of Highlighter brand markers and let my kids go wild.


Pot of ink and a mop?


Yeah that is the stuff i meant. it isnt paint, it is ink.

you can apply it with a foam roller.

#34 rule69

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:31 AM

No idea if they're good candidates but you can get screen printing inks in lots of colors and even in glow in the dark...

#35 Estar

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:37 AM


I think I'll buy a case of Highlighter brand markers and let my kids go wild.


Pot of ink and a mop?


Yeah that is the stuff i meant. it isnt paint, it is ink.

you can apply it with a foam roller.


Interesting stuff. It looks like it's designed to soak into cotton (t-shirts) - will it stick to woven dacron or spectra/mlyar? I would hate to have it rain and have orange ink washed all over my decks!

There must be some sort of ink/stain/paint that does stick to dacron - because they sell the orange dacron cloth - but what is the chemistry of the stuff that they use that really works?

#36 WHL

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 05:19 AM

Durepox new paint trials for sails.

#37 CrushDigital

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:40 AM

Maybe I'm missing something but how hard would it be to go to your favorite sailmaker and ask off hand what they use when they need to paint sales for a sponsored boat and then go and buy a few cans of that. Whatever the Volvo boys are using looks to stick to Carbon and surely you can't claim that it's not holding up pretty well.

#38 Presuming Ed

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:43 AM

I believe they use vinyl for things like the VO70s, at least on the upwind sails.

#39 Estar

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:38 PM

Durepox new paint trials for sails.


WHL, thanks durepox was also mentioned in a post above. The thing that gives me pause is that sail trial testing press release was issued on Sept 7th 2010, and they said "We will be undertaking a 3 month trial period and once completed issuing further product details and a media release." and I don't see anywhere any further information at all - sort of makes me thing the trial/testing on the sails was not very successful - unless someone else knows any different? The chemistry of this stuff looks like it would be most likely not to 'bleed' but that it might "flake".

Maybe I'm missing something but how hard would it be to go to your favorite sailmaker and ask off hand what they use when they need to paint sales for a sponsored boat and then go and buy a few cans of that. Whatever the Volvo boys are using looks to stick to Carbon and surely you can't claim that it's not holding up pretty well.


I did ask North, and they said there was a good paint they use for sail graphics, but it was not legal for use in the good old USA.They have some new paint that they are using in the USA for furling jib UV protection but it does not have the fluro colors available (as far as I can find). Any other sail makers here have any specific paint suggestions?

I have used several different paints on my mast top band, and the urathane based ones have been the 'best/most durable'. But I wonder if there are any isocynate high-vis paints (like pur15), that would stick even better?

#40 overbend

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:04 AM

Use can use either a Bond Ink or latex cold cure ink, and brush it on. This can be brushed or sprayed on and as its an ink not a paint it will not wash/flake off.
Another option is to put a layer fluoro orange stickyback over the top half of the storm jib. It will need to be clean and dry first. The leech and luff edges of the stickyback, and any stickyback seams you create will need to be sewn to stop it peeling off.

#41 whispers

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:54 AM



Get Fluro orange fabric paint from a sung writer. Works a charm


thanks does it run or flake in actual use (salt spray and flogging etc)?


I was just looking at this and the instructions say: "USE : For paint on fabric (natural fibres e.g. cotton)."

So, does it actually stick to dacron or spectra sails?



in my experience it sticks for the inspection and when you have it up in anger you have flakes and fluro shit everywhere, in retrospect id buy a new sail

#42 Estar

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:48 AM

The Bermuda race committee has issued an exemption to this rule for this year's race.

Paint on the G mainsail - north tells me it sticks better to this surface (3di) than it does to dacron or spectra or film. So, it has had a fair few miles here, but would be even worse on a non-3di sail.

Attached File  m13167_crop20_932x700_proportional_1330869579B8E6.jpg   11.82K   23 downloads

#43 Greyhawk

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:40 AM

The Bermuda race committee has issued an exemption to this rule for this year's race.


Hmmm... What about some of the other races going on this year -- for example, the Lobster Run or the RHSP -- it would be funny if the east coast's premier Cat. 1 ocean race waived this rule but a couple of lowly Cat. 2 races do not.

#44 Estar

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:19 AM


The Bermuda race committee has issued an exemption to this rule for this year's race.


Hmmm... What about some of the other races going on this year -- for example, the Lobster Run or the RHSP -- it would be funny if the east coast's premier Cat. 1 ocean race waived this rule but a couple of lowly Cat. 2 races do not.


USSailing is working on it.

#45 Greyhawk

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:15 AM

Of course RHSP wouldn't be covered by US Sailing prescriptions, as it is a race from Canada to France...

#46 Estar

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:16 PM

Of course RHSP wouldn't be covered by US Sailing prescriptions, as it is a race from Canada to France...


yes, true, if you (and others) ask, perhaps they will do what Bermuda did and put an exception in the NOR - there was not much notice of this ISAF rule change which is a good reason to give at least a one-year exception.

If they do not, so far, my research on the subject says: "cheapest/best" approach for a dacron storm jib is orange latex exterior house paint. It will pass the inspection. The latex is somewhat flexible and will resist flaking. After some uses it will come off the fold lines but will still look all orange from a couple boat lengths away. The only trick/difficulty is that the sail surface does need to be quite clean. If it's not the paint (any paint) will come off all over the place. The 'hardware store high-vis spray paint' apparently works if all you want to do is pass inspection and do not consider the storm jib to be a real working sail, but will most likily make a mess on deck if you have to use it.

I am hoping that USS will grandfather in the old jibs permanently, so that we (in the USA) don't have to do that and only need to go 'full hi-vis' when we eventually need to replace our storm jibs. For new storm jibs I am still not quite sure what the best answer is. The conventional answer for most will be an all orange dacron fabric sail, but the available orange is not as good cloth (for shape holding) as the available white dacron. The sailmakers tell me the available orange fabric is 'adequate', but honestly I really want my storm sail to be more than 'adequate' - I don't yet know how big the shape differential is but I do know that no-one truly interested in sail shape builds their working headsails from the available orange cloth. There is a much more expensive alternative, which was not allowed when we built our current storm jib but now is, of a spectra laminate sail. That's what our #4 is and it gets a ton of use and abuse and both holds up and holds it shape really well. But paint/inc sticks least well of all to spectra/film. Probably covering it all with two sides of orange dacron sticky back is the answer, but that will almost double the sail weight/thickness and add a lot of cost to an already expensive sail.

My conclusion is that it's essentially a stupid rule and that a white sail with a high-vis flash/patch/bullseye gives the sailor the best of all worlds - the best possible sail cloth plus enough high vis color that it will stand out against the ocean. And if an owner then wants to go to all high-vis that could/should be their choice. I think the priority should be first and foremost that the storm jib should be the best possible sail, to help the vessel as best as possible in difficult conditions, and secondarily that it should increase the vessel's visibility, but the experts at ISAF have seemed to reverse those priorities.

#47 Gumby

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:39 PM

Insignia cloth, which has an adhesive backing and is the same thing your sail numbers are cut out of, comes in both fluorescent pink and orange. Your sail loft can get it for you. I am going to bring some in and update my storm jib for the St. Pierre race this year.

#48 Estar

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:47 PM

Insignia cloth, which has an adhesive backing and is the same thing your sail numbers are cut out of, comes in both fluorescent pink and orange. Your sail loft can get it for you. I am going to bring some in and update my storm jib for the St. Pierre race this year.


Insignia was certainly a good solution when you just needed a patch/flash/bullseye, but I am not so sure its a good solution when you need +50% of the surface area (both sides).

Have you gotten a quote comparing a new sail in all orange vs insignia? I would guess you would be in very roughly the same ballpark and have a better end product with a new all orange sail.

Just fyi 8oz orange Dacron (from DP) costs: $18.85/yard, while 2oz insignia (one side of sail) costs $10.50/yard. There would be quite a bit of labor to clean the surface and fit insignia nicely to both sides of an already asymbled (curved) sail. Adding 2oz to both sides of an 8oz sail would add 50% to the weight and bulk. It would be interesting to know how that all factored out.

#49 Nate Owens

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:02 PM

So why in hell would you make a storm jib out of any color that wasn't highly visible?


The price of an all orange trysail or storm jib is some 75% higher than white dacron.

[as quoted by quantum, hood and neil pryde during the 2012 annapolis boat show]

#50 Gumby

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:33 PM


Insignia cloth, which has an adhesive backing and is the same thing your sail numbers are cut out of, comes in both fluorescent pink and orange. Your sail loft can get it for you. I am going to bring some in and update my storm jib for the St. Pierre race this year.


Insignia was certainly a good solution when you just needed a patch/flash/bullseye, but I am not so sure its a good solution when you need +50% of the surface area (both sides).

Have you gotten a quote comparing a new sail in all orange vs insignia? I would guess you would be in very roughly the same ballpark and have a better end product with a new all orange sail.

Just fyi 8oz orange Dacron (from DP) costs: $18.85/yard, while 2oz insignia (one side of sail) costs $10.50/yard. There would be quite a bit of labor to clean the surface and fit insignia nicely to both sides of an already asymbled (curved) sail. Adding 2oz to both sides of an 8oz sail would add 50% to the weight and bulk. It would be interesting to know how that all factored out.


Good points. But the cost of the Dacron is only a portion of the cost of a new sail. And I already have a storm jib with only about 12 hours of use on it.

#51 Estar

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:14 PM

The price of an all orange trysail or storm jib is some 75% higher than white dacron.
[as quoted by quantum, hood and neil pryde during the 2012 annapolis boat show]


mmmmm . . . I think they are ripping you off, charging a premium for orange that is not justified by the cloth price.

2011 Cloth prices (from DP) 8oz storm orange (450 x 750 construction) $18.85/yard while 8.4oz white "all purpose blade" dacron (300 x 800 construction) $16.35/yard. So the orange cloth is +15% more and the labor would be the same, so the net finished sail cost premium "should" only be around 7%.

But apparently there is not enough orange cloth being made to fill the current demand created by this new isaf regulation, so the sailmakers can 'ration' it and get higher prices. That's primarily why Bermuda pass an exception to the rule for this year.

The orange cloth is not quite 'as good' as the white cloth but is close and judged by the sailmakers I have talked to as 'adequate'.

#52 rmb

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:35 PM

IMOCA 60 sails are all painted, and it does not flake off in an around the world race. NS Rhode Island builds the Puma sails. They are painted for sure, as paint is lighter than vinyl. Call that loft and figure out where they get their sails painted.

NO ONE has to throw their sails away. This is not a big deal.

#53 Estar

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:07 PM

IMOCA 60 sails are all painted, and it does not flake off in an around the world race. NS Rhode Island builds the Puma sails. They are painted for sure, as paint is lighter than vinyl. Call that loft and figure out where they get their sails painted.

NO ONE has to throw their sails away. This is not a big deal.


For sure there are options to meet the inspection, but which will hold up best on a used sail in 55kts seems (to me) to still be an open question. If you are so sure 'this is not a big deal' please tell us exactly the best solution for a used Dacron storm jib, and what it will cost?

First, painted sails do flake - take a good look at the orange panels in Groupama's mainsail, and that 3di is a much better substrate for paint than the Dacron, film or spectra most of us have.
Second, North RI used "PW 1100 Water Soluble
Printer Ink" on the Volvo storm jibs - ink, not paint. (I believe it wants to be 'heat-set' so it will not run in rain/spray)
Third, do remember that those (volvo and vendee) were new sails, spectra laminates I believe, with clean surfaces, when inked. We are talking here about used sails with contaminated surfaces. The best solution is likely to be different for a used sail than a new one, and there will be some significant surface cleaning and prep so that the ink/paint will stick/set.
Fourth, North is not yet sure what the best solution is for used/old sails. They started a test program only 2 weeks ago - testing quite a number of different options to find the best one. Results not yet in.

Fifth, and probably the decent solutions - ones that actually work rather than just pass inspection, will not be easy DIY but rather a $ trip to the loft.


#54 Moonduster

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:47 PM

It's really quite annoying, once again, to see that the conversation has drifted from the real issue to the cost of some side effect.

Let's face it, for any serious entry in the Bermuda race, the cost of a new storm tri and jib is not discernible in the expenses for preparing the boat, certifying the safety gear, sending the required crew through safety training, provisioning, wear and tear and, for most, hotels, air fare and a delivery crew to get the boat back home. Storm sails are cheap.

The real issue here is that, once again, the ISAF has elected to make a ridiculous change to a dumb part of the body of rules that govern our sport. It's a change that will have no material effect on our sport's safety and yet another predictable step in the endless kowtowing to government agencies while simultaneously undermining the principles of skipper responsibility for the safe conduct of one's yacht while racing.

Can we try to stay on topic?

#55 Estar

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:48 PM

It's really quite annoying, once again, to see that the conversation has drifted from the real issue to the cost of some side effect.

Let's face it, for any serious entry in the Bermuda race, the cost of a new storm tri and jib is not discernible in the expenses for preparing the boat, certifying the safety gear, sending the required crew through safety training, provisioning, wear and tear and, for most, hotels, air fare and a delivery crew to get the boat back home. Storm sails are cheap.

The real issue here is that, once again, the ISAF has elected to make a ridiculous change to a dumb part of the body of rules that govern our sport. It's a change that will have no material effect on our sport's safety and yet another predictable step in the endless kowtowing to government agencies while simultaneously undermining the principles of skipper responsibility for the safe conduct of one's yacht while racing.

Can we try to stay on topic?



Moon, while I agree with you about the regulation . . . I was the OP and THE TOPIC was how best to meet the new regulation, not to complain about it.

You might want to start another thread generally on ISAF regulations, because in addition to this storm jib one, the new 'only sealed batteries allowed' reg is equally questionable.But at least in that case they grandfathered in the current battery banks.

#56 Jonathan Green

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:06 PM

Has anyone actually tried to order new orange storm sails and been told by their loft that there's not enough materials to fulfill the order? I was surprised to see that the stated reason for backing off this requirement was "shortage of suitable materials."

#57 floating dutchman

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:37 PM

Iv'e never used this on a sail but it might be worth a try

http://www.geosystem...pray-Paint.aspx

Farmers use it to mark sheep if they have been drenched etc. and it stays on them.

#58 Estar

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:44 PM

USSailing is making progress on this, and hopefully will shortly announce grandfathering in current storm jibs.

#59 rmb

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:07 PM


IMOCA 60 sails are all painted, and it does not flake off in an around the world race. NS Rhode Island builds the Puma sails. They are painted for sure, as paint is lighter than vinyl. Call that loft and figure out where they get their sails painted.

NO ONE has to throw their sails away. This is not a big deal.


For sure there are options to meet the inspection, but which will hold up best on a used sail in 55kts seems (to me) to still be an open question. If you are so sure 'this is not a big deal' please tell us exactly the best solution for a used Dacron storm jib, and what it will cost?


PAINT IT. Dacron is a woven fiber, not a slippery film or laminate. I can promise that 3DI is about the worst as it is fully resinated. NO ONE has film storm jibs, it is against the rules. Spectra can be painted with rope paint. I agree that it will be more difficult if you do not clean off all the salt. I also agree that painting with krylon will flake off.



If you would care to enlighten me as to the difference between ik and paint you are welcome. I agree that using heat set or water soluble ink is probably not the best choice. That being said, our sails were perfectly "flake free" except where they rubbed on something, and the mainsail was not new when it was painted. http://www.ecritures-publicite.com/ this is the company that did our sails, and the sails for all the IMOCAS in france. I think you can understand that if the paint flaked they would have no business, give them an email or call and ask what they use. THey are quite a helpful bunch. Ryan

First, painted sails do flake - take a good look at the orange panels in Groupama's mainsail, and that 3di is a much better substrate for paint than the Dacron, film or spectra most of us have.
Second, North RI used "PW 1100 Water Soluble Printer Ink" on the Volvo storm jibs - ink, not paint. (I believe it wants to be 'heat-set' so it will not run in rain/spray)
Third, do remember that those (volvo and vendee) were new sails, spectra laminates I believe, with clean surfaces, when inked. We are talking here about used sails with contaminated surfaces. The best solution is likely to be different for a used sail than a new one, and there will be some significant surface cleaning and prep so that the ink/paint will stick/set.
Fourth, North is not yet sure what the best solution is for used/old sails. They started a test program only 2 weeks ago - testing quite a number of different options to find the best one. Results not yet in.

Fifth, and probably the decent solutions - ones that actually work rather than just pass inspection, will not be easy DIY but rather a $ trip to the loft.





#60 rmb

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:16 PM

Fix it anarchy might help too, check the forum under "inflatable paint"

#61 Estar

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 03:28 PM

http://www.ecritures-publicite.com/ . . . the sails for all the IMOCAS in france. I think you can understand that if the paint flaked they would have no business, give them an email or call and ask what they use.

Thanks. I was told that the paint used was not allowed in the USA (for toxicity reasons). I am going to wait and see what North's testing suggests is best, and then what kind of difficulty/hassle it is to get done. It looks like in my part of the woods at least this rule will be modified to grandfather in the current storm jibs.

I can promise that 3DI is about the worst as it is fully resinated.

North 3di product manager (Dan Neri - not his actual title but what he really does) told me "
The orange paint in this photo is coming off . . .. This is a 3Di sail which has good adhesion (much better than the 3dl film)."

NO ONE has film storm jibs, it is against the rules.

Perhaps you are using the word "film" in a different way than I am but . . . Spectra/film storm jibs are in fact now allowed, and I am told that's what the Volvo boats are using this time around.
"4.26.3 Materials a) aromatic polyamides, carbon and similar fibres shall not be used in a trysail or storm jib but spectra/dyneema and similar materials are permitted. "


If you would care to enlighten me as to the difference between ik and paint you are welcome.

I am certainly not an expert, but the experts do in fact make a distinction between ink and paint. I am sure there is a more correct and technical distinction, but from what I have been told, my impression is that generally an ink is designed to soaks into and stains the material, while a paint is designed to sit on the surface.




#62 Jonathan Green

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

Has anyone actually tried to order new orange storm sails and been told by their loft that there's not enough materials to fulfill the order? I was surprised to see that the stated reason for backing off this requirement was "shortage of suitable materials."


Ok, it's been a week since I asked so I take it that's a big No, as in nobody looking for orange storm sails was turned away from their loft. So what's the real reason why the Bermuda RC backed off and, according to Estar, US Sailing is considering backing off this requirement?

#63 Estar

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:00 PM

Ok, it's been a week since I asked so I take it that's a big No, as in nobody looking for orange storm sails was turned away from their loft. So what's the real reason why the Bermuda RC backed off and, according to Estar, US Sailing is considering backing off this requirement?


I would not take silence here as a NO for the Bermuda race fleet. Much of that fleet does not "do" SA. The Bermuda race committee said that, so I assume they in fact had sailors told that by their lofts. There is absolutely no reason for them to be deceptive.

The discussion within USSailing has touched on the short term problem, but has been more about the desire not to obsolete the whole inventory of existing perfectly good storm jibs. I believe the outcome will be to grandfather in the existing storm jibs, but require 100% high vis for any new storm jibs purchased 2014 and after.

#64 Jonathan Green

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:33 PM


Ok, it's been a week since I asked so I take it that's a big No, as in nobody looking for orange storm sails was turned away from their loft. So what's the real reason why the Bermuda RC backed off and, according to Estar, US Sailing is considering backing off this requirement?


I would not take silence here as a NO for the Bermuda race fleet. Much of that fleet does not "do" SA. The Bermuda race committee said that, so I assume they in fact had sailors told that by their lofts. There is absolutely no reason for them to be deceptive.

The discussion within USSailing has touched on the short term problem, but has been more about the desire not to obsolete the whole inventory of existing perfectly good storm jibs. I believe the outcome will be to grandfather in the existing storm jibs, but require 100% high vis for any new storm jibs purchased 2014 and after.


Agreed that there are people who do the Bermuda Race who are not on SA however I think we have enough of a representative sampling of crew and skippers here to extrapolate a bit. This thread has 2,100+ views and nobody has indicated or agreed that there is a shortage of materials. The people in the sail biz I've talked to indicate there's plenty of material out there.

The reason I bring it up is that this is the sort of RC move that smacks of 'the good ol' boy club," that is, a buddy of someone on the RC started bitching that he can't stand the thought of replacing his perfectly good three year old storm sails so the RC changes the rules to accommodate his buddy. This is the sort of crap that goes on leading up to the Marblehead-Halifax race, sometimes with changes to race requirements occurring within weeks of the start. It pisses me off because the people who make a concerted effort to conform to the published race requirements, particularly the early-birds out there, are unfairly taxed by conforming to requirements that others, the last-minute procrastinators, are no longer required to deal with. How many people ordered a new suit of storm sails between when the Bermuda Race NOR was published on December 2, 2011 and February 27, 2012 when the RC dropped the requirement? How many other requirements will be dropped between now and the race start on June 15th? Whenever you hear the safety police encouraging people to get an early start on preparing their boats for a race, you can remind them of this episode, among others.

All that said, I'm in agreement with Moonduster that this particular change to the OSR won't materially improve the safety of our sport and I'm getting a little tired of people who think, if left to my own devices, I'm incapable of being safe so they need to impose rules on me.

#65 Estar

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 06:33 PM

The US Sailing Board of Directors approved the following Prescription on 12 March 2012:
US Sailing prescribes that the requirement for a highly-visible colored material or patch covering 50% of the area of storm jibs in ISAF OSR 4.26.2 (a) is a recommendation in the US. After January 1, 2014, the requirements for new storm sails in ISAF OSR 4.26.2 (a) shall apply to CAT 0, 1, 2, and 3. This requirement grandfathers all storm sails made prior to January 1, 2014.
This prescription modifies 2012 OSR 4.26.2 High Visibility (a) Every storm jib shall either be of highly-visible coloured material (e.g. dayglo pink, orange or yellow) or have a highly visible coloured patch at least 50% of the area of the sail (up to a maximum diameter of 3m) added on each side; and also that a rotating wing mast should have a highly-visible coloured patch on each side. A storm sail purchased after January 2014 shall have the material of the body of the sail a highly-visible colour. (** - All Categories)

#66 Jonathan Green

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:51 PM

The US Sailing Board of Directors approved the following Prescription on 12 March 2012:
US Sailing prescribes that the requirement for a highly-visible colored material or patch covering 50% of the area of storm jibs in ISAF OSR 4.26.2 (a) is a recommendation in the US. After January 1, 2014, the requirements for new storm sails in ISAF OSR 4.26.2 (a) shall apply to CAT 0, 1, 2, and 3. This requirement grandfathers all storm sails made prior to January 1, 2014.
This prescription modifies 2012 OSR 4.26.2 High Visibility (a) Every storm jib shall either be of highly-visible coloured material (e.g. dayglo pink, orange or yellow) or have a highly visible coloured patch at least 50% of the area of the sail (up to a maximum diameter of 3m) added on each side; and also that a rotating wing mast should have a highly-visible coloured patch on each side. A storm sail purchased after January 2014 shall have the material of the body of the sail a highly-visible colour. (** - All Categories)


Well we can only hope this materials shortage crisis will be over by 1/1/2014.

#67 Estar

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:15 PM

Well we can only hope this materials shortage crisis will be over by 1/1/2014.

The current storm jibs are grandfathered for all time - don't need to be replaced or modified in 2014. So in 2014 there will be only the 'normal' sail replacement volume, which much be pretty low for storm jibs. The problem this year, was that the ISAF suddenly and instantly made essentially ALL current storm jibs obsolete (either to be replaced immediately, or painted or covered 50% in patches).

The reason I bring it up is that this is the sort of RC move that smacks of 'the good ol' boy club,"

I know something first hand about the USSailing process and discussion but not about the Bermuda committee.

However, I will say that this storm jib rule seems to have been a bit of a fubar. This is second hand, but what I am told (by a US representative to the ISAF committee) is that there was an ISAF vote and approval on a requirement for 20% high vis (which many current storm jibs meet and which could be done pretty easily with a patch), and that's what they came back and told the US authorities (and RC's) was happening, but then when ISAF published the requirement suddenly it had somehow grown to 50% high-vis (which almost no current storm jibs meet, and which is not so easy with patches). So, this was a 'surprise', and the US likes to give sailors at least a year to adapt to any such change.

All that said, I'm in agreement with Moonduster that this particular change to the OSR won't materially improve the safety of our sport and I'm getting a little tired of people who think, if left to my own devices, I'm incapable of being safe so they need to impose rules on me.

There is a faction within the US that very strongly agrees with you. ISAF OSR's currently have 'only' about a 55% share of the US 'offshore races', so many races have already voted with their feet. And even in the group that uses ISAF, there is a growing feeling that it is both too gold plated and too nanny state. There has been some discussion about the US writing their own OSR's that focus more on the things that truly matter to safety, are more suited to 'normal' (rather than gold plated grand prix) racers and leave greater discretion in the hands of the racers (like what battery type to use). That's obviously controversial. If anyone has grounded opinions on the subject I am sure that Chuck Hawley would be interested to hear them.



#68 Ishtarsdog

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:25 AM

Sorry to jump in late, but have a few questions for the masses.
To improve our chances of being seen we are planning to add insignia cloth to ours. Not required to for our race, (Pac Cup) although strongly recommended.

Not sure how it will affect shape, but frankly adding a bit more structure to the storm jib is not something I am that worried about. Should I be? In the kind of conditions that would require us to shift down from a #4 to a storm jib, I am not likely to be hard on the wind. And I was thinking our storm jib was pretty flat to begin with.


Wondering if there are sailmakers out there who can weigh in about shape, and also if anyone has photos of storm jibs that have been modified to increase the high vis percentage.

Also wondering if orange is the best color. Seems like that is the one everyone chooses.

Appreciate any advice that you might have.

#69 Estar

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:59 PM

Not sure how it will affect shape, but frankly adding a bit more structure to the storm jib is not something I am that worried about. Should I be? In the kind of conditions that would require us to shift down from a #4 to a storm jib, I am not likely to be hard on the wind. And I was thinking our storm jib was pretty flat to begin with.

Depends a bit on how much patch area you want to add. 20% is typically no problem at all. Ideally (from a sailmaking perspective) you want the patch in an area of low gaussian curvature*. If you look at a gaussian map of your sail you will see lots of low gaussian area (particularly along the trailing edge) and some high gaussian area (particularly near the luff). You can cover high gaussian areas, but its best to do them in narrower strips that are more labor and more seams.

* A measure of how much curvature there is along two dimensions (think saddle and sphere shapes) vs a simple developable one dimension curve (think a coke can).

Also wondering if orange is the best color. Seems like that is the one everyone chooses.

There is a debate about fluoro orange vs fluoro yellow. The question is which provides the greatest contrast against a stormy ocean - no definitive answer that I know of - both are highly visible - might be most eye catching to do alternating stripes. The helo pilots probably 'expect' orange, so might recognize it very slightly more quickly.

Appreciate any advice that you might have.



#70 Merrill Levi

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 05:16 AM

grey overcast day here in Sydney, reading this thread - I look up to see (via binoculars) Wasabi, a 10.99mtr boat sailing about 2 miles out to sea. Up close this boat looks like this:-

Posted Imagephoto credit Rolex/Daniel Forster

so I thought it relevant to the "color contrast on a grey day" question Evans raised, and took this photo with an 8mp camera (top & bottom cropped out)
Wasabi is 2nm away (right of centre), kevlar main is visible, carbon headsail is invisible and hull color indistinguishable at this distance, two other boats about 1nm away are clear with red/white and orange/red/white spinnakers

Posted Image photo credit - me

hope this add's to the discussion, I thought it did.

ML

#71 stinky

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:34 PM


Not sure how it will affect shape, but frankly adding a bit more structure to the storm jib is not something I am that worried about. Should I be? In the kind of conditions that would require us to shift down from a #4 to a storm jib, I am not likely to be hard on the wind. And I was thinking our storm jib was pretty flat to begin with.

Depends a bit on how much patch area you want to add. 20% is typically no problem at all. Ideally (from a sailmaking perspective) you want the patch in an area of low gaussian curvature*. If you look at a gaussian map of your sail you will see lots of low gaussian area (particularly along the trailing edge) and some high gaussian area (particularly near the luff). You can cover high gaussian areas, but its best to do them in narrower strips that are more labor and more seams.

* A measure of how much curvature there is along two dimensions (think saddle and sphere shapes) vs a simple developable one dimension curve (think a coke can).

-You should not be worried. It is not an issue. All sails (by necessity) are developable shapes that can be formed in sail cloth. Insignia cloth has so much bias stretch that you can slap it on "high gaussian" areas at it's full 60" width. (This is often the last stage of life for old 3DL sails; a huge white band across the foot, holding the strings together after the mylar has left it for a better place.)

-Also, if your storm jib is round enough that you can't cover it in sticky, you should be praying that it never leaves its bag.

-Weight savings are a better argument for painting/inking than ease of application.


Also wondering if orange is the best color. Seems like that is the one everyone chooses.

There is a debate about fluoro orange vs fluoro yellow. The question is which provides the greatest contrast against a stormy ocean - no definitive answer that I know of - both are highly visible - might be most eye catching to do alternating stripes. The helo pilots probably 'expect' orange, so might recognize it very slightly more quickly.

Appreciate any advice that you might have.






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