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#1 Catalina 36

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:35 PM

My C36 is equipped with an asymetrical spinniker (Flasher) and the previous owner apparently bought new sheets for it shortly before selling me the boat. The problem is, this sail is a light air sail and the sheets are 7/16 Stayset or something similar. I think these sheets are both way too heavy and overkill.

I also have about 70' of 5/16" double braid (removed from the furler to go up one size) and 100' or so of 1/4" double braid that was just on the boat when I bought it.

Would it be worth the effort to end to end splice one of the lighter lines to the 7/16" sort of like a low tech tapered sheet? If so, which smaller size would you suggest the 5/16 or 1/4?

OR, could/should I just buy another length of lighter line to pair with the 5/16" or 1/4"? We've used both on the aysm in light air and the 5/16" is obviously easier on the hands, but the which size question still applies to this option. Even the 5/16 seems small in the hand, hence the splice idea.

OR, stop being a cheap SOB and buy new tapered high tech sheets? (I admit to being cheap but its hard not to be looking at the brand new line I have piled on the boat, plus this sail isn't put to racing use its just for cruising.)

#2 Ajax

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:39 PM

Whether you're racing or cruising, if you want every erg of momentum from your boat in the Chesapeake Doldrums, then you might want light sheets. However, if you're just impatient, and fire up the engine in the summer, don't bother with the expense.

I tend to sail as fast as I can, whether I'm racing or just fooling about, so I make things as racy as I can afford (which ain't much :( )

#3 Catalina 36

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:01 PM

snip: However, if you're just impatient, and fire up the engine in the summer, don't bother with the expense.



For a minute there I thought you might be my wife. lol

I have plenty of encouragement to fire up the engine, I'm trying to maximize my sailing time by making the asym more "workable."

#4 Mojo Risin

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Get something like this: My link

Works great, won't absorb water so they stay light. Tie them on with a bowline. There is no need to get fancy, tapered high tech sheets. You shouldn't need or want anything larger than 3/8".

I had the high tech, tapered stuff on a prior racey boat, now I don't on the "cruiser." I don't miss the go fast lines.

#5 Merit 25

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:11 PM

I have ultra-lite that starts out as 5/16 covered, then to 1/4" covered, and then bare 1/8" dyneema. Round the cans I use soft shackles for attachments, which are very light. Distance stuff we use metal shackles in case we need to peel. Check your PMs.

#6 allen

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:21 PM

One thing you might consider is that in lighter air, where you want the lighter sheets, you do not have the load on the sheets and the small diameter sheets are easier to deal with around the winches. On the boat I race on in the winter, we use very small diameter sheets for light air, no taper even though they have a dyneema core. I would just use the sheets you have and do something different only if you have a problem with them, which I don't think you will.

I to have a splice that will work between staset and amsteel on my site. I must caution that my testing was limited to about 1000 pounds on the 1/8 amsteel to 1/4 staset splice. I am not sure how well it would work on a spinnaker but in light air it might be just fine. You would have to experiment. If you do, please let me know how you like it. It might be a cheap way to try something without cutting up your existing sheets or spending too much on new ones.


Allen
L-36.com

#7 sailSAK

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:37 PM

Get the real thing. Anything else is just dicking the dog.

#8 radicalmove

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:17 AM

If you think the 1/4 inch is too light,then possibly going with
another length of 5/16 is a good, and less expensive option.
Or if the 1/4 is ok, then another length of 1/4. You could use
a hyrid solution for lighter air by cutting both the 5/16 and 1/4 inch
in half and splicing them. Sort of having a light tail (and I am assuming
that 50ft of 1/4 tail would be plenty long to effectively give you light
air sheets). If you are ever in doubt you could go back to the 7/16.

I'd be interested to know what the weight of the sailcloth is before I
really did anything, and also how the sail is cut, to see how far downwind
you can really carry it. Also, is it set up so you can vary the tack.

If you are cruising, given what you already have, I doubt there is really a
need to go to a high tech pair of tapered sheets, or even more high tech,
a single sheet.

#9 mrgnstrn

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:22 PM

my only suggestion is that going to 1/4" for the whole system is murder on the hands.

you want ~3/8 for the handed part, otherwise it starts to cut into you.

so my suggestion is 3/8" poly double braid spliced to a 3/16 or 1/4 amsteel/spectra.

buy the right line & 2 cases of beer and Merit25 & I will whip them up for you.

to do this right, you will need some measurements. like the distance from the clew to the winch on a tight reach.

to get some more ideas of what can be done go to:
http://www.apsltd.co...sheetsguys.aspx

-M

#10 sailSAK

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:01 PM

to get some more ideas of what can be done go to:
http://www.apsltd.com/c-1539-splicingservices-halyardssheetsguys.aspx

-M

Thanks for posting that. I had lost track of what you can do these days.
I think even a cruising boat benefits greatly from this high tech racy stuff. For a cruiser a set of sheets for an asymm could easily last decades even with a stripped cover so cost isn't a real consideration. Sta-set is expensive too! The 130feet of 3/8 that came with my kite is heavy, holds water, and takes of a lot of space in the sail bag. Seriously considering the asymm bridle...

#11 Schnick

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:17 PM

My Catalina 36 runs 5/16 Endura Braid for spin sheets. You couldn't go any smaller.

I think cruisers often make the mistake of using overly heavy spinnaker gear, both in the sail and the lines. They usually only use the spinnaker in light air, and will just sail with whites when it's blowing more than 10 or 12 knots, so why do they all use 1.5oz kites and 1/2" Sta-set sheets? Use the right tool for the job, and take the kite down when it isn't adding much speed anymore.

#12 allen

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:49 PM

my only suggestion is that going to 1/4" for the whole system is murder on the hands.

you want ~3/8 for the handed part, otherwise it starts to cut into you.

so my suggestion is 3/8" poly double braid spliced to a 3/16 or 1/4 amsteel/spectra.

buy the right line & 2 cases of beer and Merit25 & I will whip them up for you.

to do this right, you will need some measurements. like the distance from the clew to the winch on a tight reach.

to get some more ideas of what can be done go to:
http://www.apsltd.co...sheetsguys.aspx

-M


A slightly different Amsteel to StaSet splice is shown here My link. It is more complex than the "core to core bulk splice" but is done that way for strength. I tested it to over 1000 pounds on 1/8 Amsteel to 1/4 StaSet which would be the equivalent of about 2200 pounds for a 3/16 to 3/8 splice. I have not tested it to failure (it was too strong for my 40 power winch to break it) so you should do that before going this way. Clearly above working load but it really should be tested to failure so you know your safety factor. I developed it for halyards where my test was more than adequate. The link above gives step by step instructions.

If the splice being suggested is the "core to core bulk splice", I would love to see some test results on its strength. Personally, it does not look strong enough for a sheet application where the splice is taking the full load. It looks like the splice would slip well before the breaking strength of the line. I would love to see some data showing that I am wrong.

But again, if the 1/4 inch sheets are for light wind, you should not have trouble with them and I see no reason to go with the high tech solution. We use 3/16 inch spin sheets on the T-10 I race on for light winds. . We just locked up first place (with one race still to go) in the South Beach Winter series so we can't be totally crazy.

Allen




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#13 Merit 25

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:12 PM

The core to core bulk splice does work. I add a locking brummel splice when doing end-for-end splicing so it can't pull out without the line itself failing. The buries are long and it does add a little more thickness, but helps me sleep well at night. On your site it looks like the buries are pretty short, but it could just be the photos.

#14 allen

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 06:20 PM

The core to core bulk splice does work. I add a locking brummel splice when doing end-for-end splicing so it can't pull out without the line itself failing. The buries are long and it does add a little more thickness, but helps me sleep well at night. On your site it looks like the buries are pretty short, but it could just be the photos.


The buries are short but the line is small. 7 inches of 1/8 Amsteel is 56 diameters. This is an Amsteel to StaSet splice so not as slippery as Amsteel to Amsteel. It also has two bearing surfaces, inside and outside the Amsteel both of which are being compressed under load so you have double the friction. Should be more than enough. Some of the tips do not have a long bury but they just hold line in compression rather than taking the load. I admit that I only tested it to 50% of the line breaking strength but it showed no strain at that level. I would suggest more testing before using it in a sheet application.

On your splice, the locking Brummel will help with the no load slipping issue much as the stitching does on my splice but what I was talking about was a high load slip, slippage in the thousands of pounds area. As you know, the Brummel is not helpful there.

What testing have you done on that splice showing strength at high load when the splice is not on a winch or in a clutch and carries the full load?

Allen

#15 Merit 25

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 06:59 PM

Besides using them in 20+ true? None.

The longer the tapper the more friction is created between the two lines. The more it resist pulling out. 56 diameters is probably fine. More should theoretically be better right?

#16 xyzzy

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:55 PM

Besides using them in 20+ true? None.

The longer the tapper the more friction is created between the two lines. The more it resist pulling out. 56 diameters is probably fine. More should theoretically be better right?


Samson's splicing directions for class 2 splices call for 63 diameters of bury. For class 1 it's only 42 diameters.

#17 allen

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:55 PM


Besides using them in 20+ true? None.

The longer the tapper the more friction is created between the two lines. The more it resist pulling out. 56 diameters is probably fine. More should theoretically be better right?


Samson's splicing directions for class 2 splices call for 63 diameters of bury. For class 1 it's only 42 diameters.


Well there you go. It is half class 2 and half class 1 and the average of 63 and 42 is only 52.5. I think that is how I picked the length. Plus, like I said, it has twice the friction of a normal splice because the Amsteel is between the two braids of the StaSet. On top of that, I have tested it and it doesn't slip at pretty significant loads.


I am still curious of the other splice has been tested at high loads.

Allen

#18 b6sfull

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:59 PM

My C36 is equipped with an asymetrical spinniker (Flasher) and the previous owner apparently bought new sheets for it shortly before selling me the boat. The problem is, this sail is a light air sail and the sheets are 7/16 Stayset or something similar. I think these sheets are both way too heavy and overkill.

I also have about 70' of 5/16" double braid (removed from the furler to go up one size) and 100' or so of 1/4" double braid that was just on the boat when I bought it.

Would it be worth the effort to end to end splice one of the lighter lines to the 7/16" sort of like a low tech tapered sheet? If so, which smaller size would you suggest the 5/16 or 1/4?

OR, could/should I just buy another length of lighter line to pair with the 5/16" or 1/4"? We've used both on the aysm in light air and the 5/16" is obviously easier on the hands, but the which size question still applies to this option. Even the 5/16 seems small in the hand, hence the splice idea.

OR, stop being a cheap SOB and buy new tapered high tech sheets? (I admit to being cheap but its hard not to be looking at the brand new line I have piled on the boat, plus this sail isn't put to racing use its just for cruising.)


use what you were left with and save your hard earned cash for a 6 month introductory enrolement at the local Jenny Craig.:P

#19 allen

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:15 AM



Besides using them in 20+ true? None.

The longer the tapper the more friction is created between the two lines. The more it resist pulling out. 56 diameters is probably fine. More should theoretically be better right?


Samson's splicing directions for class 2 splices call for 63 diameters of bury. For class 1 it's only 42 diameters.


Well there you go. It is half class 2 and half class 1 and the average of 63 and 42 is only 52.5. I think that is how I picked the length. Plus, like I said, it has twice the friction of a normal splice because the Amsteel is between the two braids of the StaSet. On top of that, I have tested it and it doesn't slip at pretty significant loads.


I am still curious of the other splice has been tested at high loads.

Allen


Merit-20

Oh, sorry. I see that your reply was that they had not been tested except in use. Missed that.

I decided to test it myself. I made one of your splices on the same line that I had my splice. I pulled on both of them in series. Now, I must say that this was an old piece of StaSet and an old piece of Amsteel but sill, I am doing comparative measurements seeing what the weak point was but I would not bet my life on this test. The Amsteel was 1/8 inch and the StaSet was 1/4 inch. I used 80 diameters of overlap.

Both splices held just fine without any indication that they were stressed when the StaSet broke in a random location well away from either splice. This test should really be done again with new line but preliminary indications are that your splice is just fine, and a lot easier to make!

I didn't know how to terminate the lose ends of line so I taped them. In my splice they are buried so there are no lose ends. However, they are very hard to bury.

Allen



#20 Merit 25

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:38 AM

Allen, thanks for looking into that. I always appreciate the time and thought you put into rigging. I'm always looking for new ideas and lightweight options on rigging.

The ends are hard to bury in that tiny line. Especially when you try to stuff 1/4" into 1/8". I just put a whipping on the transition and then some shrink wrap on it. Helps smooth out the tapper.

Originally I tried to go from 5/16 double braid to 1/8" amsteel and the difference was too much for me to get to work. I added the 1/4" in between and it really helped.

#21 allen

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:31 AM

Allen, thanks for looking into that. I always appreciate the time and thought you put into rigging. I'm always looking for new ideas and lightweight options on rigging.

The ends are hard to bury in that tiny line. Especially when you try to stuff 1/4" into 1/8". I just put a whipping on the transition and then some shrink wrap on it. Helps smooth out the tapper.

Originally I tried to go from 5/16 double braid to 1/8" amsteel and the difference was too much for me to get to work. I added the 1/4" in between and it really helped.


The trick to get the 1/4 inch StaSet cover into the 1/8 inch Amsteel is to unbraid the cover.

I also didn't know how you terminate the Amsteel that is between the two StaSet braids. It is important that it be terminated so the it doesn't bunch up when the cover is milked over. In my splice it is buried. For my testing of yours, I taped it.

By the way, the best tape I have found for splices is scotch tape. I have tried everything from masking tape to "Million Dollar" tape.

I like the idea of the shrink wrap. I have another halyard arrangement that is just Tenex over Amsteel and the transition is similar. I bury 1/2 the Tenex strands (6 of the 12) and whip the rest but I think the shrink wrap would be an improvement as the whipping seems to be coming lose with use.

Allen

#22 xyzzy

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:53 AM

If you spliced amsteel just to the core of the sta-set, and ignored the cover, wouldn't you expect the sta-set to fail at less than it's normal breaking strength? Because the cover wouldn't be taking as much load as it should. All the load would be going from amsteel to sta-set core. So just because the line failed in the sta-set past the splice doesn't mean the splice has achieved the full breaking strength of the lines involved.

#23 European Bloke

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:16 AM

Are we playing the normal game of ‘how complicated can we make it’?

They’re lightwind sheets on a small boat. How hard are they ever going to pull? Buy the thinnest lightest stuff the big girl trimming can hold when it’s not pulling back. Ideally something that doesn’t soak up water cos that usually how light sheets get heavy in light wind. Then tell him to buy some gloves if he makes a fuss. For fucks sake people.

#24 allen

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:52 PM

If you spliced amsteel just to the core of the sta-set, and ignored the cover, wouldn't you expect the sta-set to fail at less than it's normal breaking strength? Because the cover wouldn't be taking as much load as it should. All the load would be going from amsteel to sta-set core. So just because the line failed in the sta-set past the splice doesn't mean the splice has achieved the full breaking strength of the lines involved.


There could have been a weak point in my old StaSet so my test is suspect to that extent. However, the break was not in the StaSet that was part of his splice. This line had two splices in it. The easiest way to explain it is to describe the layout. Winch : 1/4 inch StaSet : the untested splice : Amsteel : My splice that definitely does splice both cover and core : 1/4 inch StaSet : break : more 1/4 inch StaSet : Cleat.

All this said, I would have expected the line to fail at the cleat or at the end of a taper so there was probably a weak point but still, it must be stronger than just the core so there must be some load transfer into the cover due to friction across the 80 diameters of this splice. But before I bet my life on it, I would want to re-test it with new line.

In terms of what line to use for a light wind spin sheet, I would just use the 1/4 inch that the OP has on his boat already. It is light wind afterall.

#25 Catalina 36

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:56 PM

Sorry, I went away from this thread for a while after some PM's with Merit.

I'll check the boat kitty after the rest of the spring commissioning chores are done and decide on either another length of 5/16's to go with what I have or if theres $$ left I'll just go with flight line the same size and look for another use for all the other line.

#26 Merit 25

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:57 PM

Sounds like the options for high tech are
Ultra lite by Samson or Flight line from NER.

The FL is a little lighter than UL but the UL cover may last a bit longer. The FL core is 100% dyneema and a little lighter than the UL. Will also stretch a bit less than the UL's blended core. The FL will strip a bit better, the UL blended core tends to be very fuzzy. Both lines are ridiculously light once you strip the cover.

The cheap route, splice your 5/16" to your 1/4" and put a soft shackle on it. Done.

#27 allen

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:15 PM

Sounds like the options for high tech are
Ultra lite by Samson or Flight line from NER.

The FL is a little lighter than UL but the UL cover may last a bit longer. The FL core is 100% dyneema and a little lighter than the UL. Will also stretch a bit less than the UL's blended core. The FL will strip a bit better, the UL blended core tends to be very fuzzy. Both lines are ridiculously light once you strip the cover.

The cheap route, splice your 5/16" to your 1/4" and put a soft shackle on it. Done.


As if there are not enough options in this thread, here is another one. For anyone using a 12 strand line to attach to a sail that is using a soft shackle you might want to consider what I call a soft line shackle. It is much easier to use than even my new improved soft shackle, which is a lot easier to use than other soft shackle designs.

To make it you basically make an eye splice in the 12 strand but you make it very small, perhaps a 1/4 inch eye. Then lock stitch it half way along the bury, something like 6 inches back from the eye. Then you make a simple loop of high tech line with a diamond knot in it. You attach the loop with the diamond knot to the clew with a luggage hitch (optionally stitch it or tape it so it cannot come off or you could just tie it so it is permanently around the clew ring). To use it, you open the eye at the end of the line like you do a soft shackle, place it over the diamond knot, and close the eye. Simple and no extra piece to fall overboard or fuss with. To pick the size for the line for the diamond knot loop, use line twice as strong as your main line as the diamond knot loop will be about half the line strength.

This is a good option for a line that will not be running across your rigging. If the sheet needs to run across the rigging, I prefer the soft shackle so you can bury the diamond knot inside the clew ring.

Allen
L-36.com
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#28 Catalina 36

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:08 PM

I do have a question on the use of soft shackles for spin sheets. Assuming I used the 5/16" double braid do you just do a eye splice and loop a soft shackle through that? Coming from a climbing background line on line like that was a no-no as they can abraid through very quickly. How do you avoid that using soft shackles?

Merit, I also though you didn't like the idea of splicing the 1/4 and 5/16 togather which was my firrst thought.

If you think that would work we should talk about what you'd charge me for that plus some soft shackles since we live within a few miles of each other.

#29 rmb

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:15 PM

The good old bowline will work perfectly on your light air spin sheets. Buy your 5/16th double braid, and just tie it on.

#30 Catalina 36

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:30 PM

The good old bowline will work perfectly on your light air spin sheets. Buy your 5/16th double braid, and just tie it on.



We use a snuffer and its a PITA to have the lines run ahead of time then have to stop to tie in the sheets either before or after hoisting the sock. Its usually just my wife and I so being able to do things a bit more efficiently is a goal.

#31 allen

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:55 PM

I do have a question on the use of soft shackles for spin sheets. Assuming I used the 5/16" double braid do you just do a eye splice and loop a soft shackle through that? Coming from a climbing background line on line like that was a no-no as they can abraid through very quickly. How do you avoid that using soft shackles?


Remember that an eye splice is just as strong as the line it is on if made correctly. People say 90% but in testing, the line breaks at some random place away from the splice. A line with a bowline is a little more than half as strong as the line it is tied on. The soft shackle is as strong as the line it is made of. Use an eye splice and a soft shackle and what you end up with will be stronger than a line with a bowline, probably 60% stronger. The other thing going for it is that the material the soft shackle is made of is slick so you are probably better off than if you had two sections of climbing rope.

Allen
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#32 xyzzy

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:34 AM

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Interesting idea. I wonder if you could take two short lengths of line and tie them together in a diamond knot at each end. To make a sort of dogbone with diamond knots at each end. Stick the bone through the clew and then stuff both diamond knots though the eye on the end of the line, one at a time. No metal ring that way. The eye would need to be a little bigger but with two knots trying to pull out it seems like it would be even harder for them to flog through. You could even stuff the knots though the eye on opposite sides, so it stays straighter when loaded.

#33 Merit 25

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:43 AM

C36, 5/16 to 1/4" shouldn't be a problem, I was just against using 7/16" on spin sheets. That's really heavy for 90% of the time on the bay. Shoot me a PM when you want to get it done.

Just finished up the J120 project.

#34 savoir

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:09 AM

Sorry, I went away from this thread for a while after some PM's with Merit.

I'll check the boat kitty after the rest of the spring commissioning chores are done and decide on either another length of 5/16's to go with what I have or if theres $$ left I'll just go with flight line the same size and look for another use for all the other line.



5/16" Flight would work just fine. Don't bother with tapering or anything higher tech. The extra expense and effort won't get you anywhere.

#35 allen

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 06:07 PM


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Interesting idea. I wonder if you could take two short lengths of line and tie them together in a diamond knot at each end. To make a sort of dogbone with diamond knots at each end. Stick the bone through the clew and then stuff both diamond knots though the eye on the end of the line, one at a time. No metal ring that way. The eye would need to be a little bigger but with two knots trying to pull out it seems like it would be even harder for them to flog through. You could even stuff the knots though the eye on opposite sides, so it stays straighter when loaded.


Just a clarification on the picture, the ring is intended to be a ring on a sail. In thinking about the idea above, I realized that you can just take a single piece of line and string it through the webbing or ring on a sail and then tie the diamond knot. That way it is captured and accomplishes what is suggested above with just a single knot to string through the line shackle. Here is a picture with a stopper loop going through the head of an old sail. To use this, you just make a soft line shackle splice in the halyard and attach it directly to the diamond knot as in the picture above.


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