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OCS or BFD - Is BFD supposed to work like this?


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#1 Brass

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:45 AM

Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?

Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.



If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.



There was a bit of discussion in the other thread about whether this was right or wrong, or a good thing or a bad thing.

So, at a Black Flag start, a Race Office, in a starboard end race committee boat, makes the starting signal, happy that his voice recorder has got all the BFD miscreants, then about 10 seconds later sees a boat, an entrant in the class just started, approach from over his right shoulder, on the course side of the race committee boat, from outside the course,

1. The boat crosses the starting line from the course side to the pre-start side entirely, then starts in the direction of the first mark:

HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?

#2 I'moutahere

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:56 AM

Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?

Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.



If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.



There was a bit of discussion in the other thread about whether this was right or wrong, or a good thing or a bad thing.

So, at a Black Flag start, a Race Office, in a starboard end race committee boat, makes the starting signal, happy that his voice recorder has got all the BFD miscreants, then about 10 seconds later sees a boat, an entrant in the class just started, approach from over his right shoulder, on the course side of the race committee boat, from outside the course,

1. The boat crosses the starting line from the course side to the pre-start side entirely, then starts in the direction of the first mark:

HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?


You forgot (or left out) the fact that in 2, the boat HAS NOT complied with the definition of start.

Attached File  start.PNG   27.78K   21 downloads

#3 Snow Guy

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 01:03 AM

Under a black flag start, can a boat be OCS and not be BFD?

Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.



If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.



There was a bit of discussion in the other thread about whether this was right or wrong, or a good thing or a bad thing.

So, at a Black Flag start, a Race Office, in a starboard end race committee boat, makes the starting signal, happy that his voice recorder has got all the BFD miscreants, then about 10 seconds later sees a boat, an entrant in the class just started, approach from over his right shoulder, on the course side of the race committee boat, from outside the course,

1. The boat crosses the starting line from the course side to the pre-start side entirely, then starts in the direction of the first mark:

HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?


I think Hobie has it right, kind of. That boat may be in the direction of the first mark, but by the black flag rules, they aren't technically OCS.

1-The RO may not get the call completely correct because it can be tough to keep track of a larger fleet, but redress should take care of it.

2- The boat never technically started, so therefore should be called DNS. Doesn't matter if it's a black flag or not, they never actually started.

Don't have a rule book handy, but I could probably cite some rule numbers/definitions if you would like.

#4 Snaggletooth

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 01:51 AM

There was a bit of discussion in the other thread about whether this was right or wrong, or a good thing or a bad thing.

So, at a Black Flag start, a Race Office, in a starboard end race committee boat, makes the starting signal, happy that his voice recorder has got all the BFD miscreants, then about 10 seconds later sees a boat, an entrant in the class just started, approach from over his right shoulder, on the course side of the race committee boat, from outside the course,

1. The boat crosses the starting line from the course side to the pre-start side entirely, then starts in the direction of the first mark:

HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Whatevere the boate plaices :)

2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?

DNS :)

No OCS in 30.2 ore 30.3 that i see :)

#5 highndry

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:24 AM

merican rules ?

#6 Ballast Technician

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:16 AM


[SNIP]
Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.



If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.



There was a bit of discussion in the other thread about whether this was right or wrong, or a good thing or a bad thing.

So, at a Black Flag start, a Race Office, in a starboard end race committee boat, makes the starting signal, happy that his voice recorder has got all the BFD miscreants, then about 10 seconds later sees a boat, an entrant in the class just started, approach from over his right shoulder, on the course side of the race committee boat, from outside the course,

1. The boat crosses the starting line from the course side to the pre-start side entirely, then starts in the direction of the first mark:

HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?


You forgot (or left out) the fact that in 2, the boat HAS NOT complied with the definition of start.

Attached File  start.PNG   27.78K   21 downloads


Which is entirely consistent with a score of OCS. DNS is not a catch-all score for all boats that show up but fail to start.

#7 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:19 AM

This sounds like an event that 90% of us will never be able to attend.

#8 Ballast Technician

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:23 AM


[SNIP]
Absolutely.

30.3 Black Flag Rule
If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat's hull, crew or
equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting
line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.



If you click on the image (so you can actually see it) the boats immediately to windward of the signal boat and pin boat are OCS (On Course Side) at the starting signal, but not BFD (provided that they got there without ever being in the triangle - rotate the boat by the pin 180 degrees if it makes you feel better).

There is no requirement to "go around the ends" in 30.3, so dip starts are legal - as long as you're not in the triangle from a minute before the start until the start.

Of course, they would have to dip down completely below the line in order to start properly, in which case, they are no longer OCS. However, according to the definition of OCS:

OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her
starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1

so if they don't start properly, they are scored OCS.

So a boat can be OCS on a black flag start and not be BFD.



There was a bit of discussion in the other thread about whether this was right or wrong, or a good thing or a bad thing.

So, at a Black Flag start, a Race Office, in a starboard end race committee boat, makes the starting signal, happy that his voice recorder has got all the BFD miscreants, then about 10 seconds later sees a boat, an entrant in the class just started, approach from over his right shoulder, on the course side of the race committee boat, from outside the course,

1. The boat crosses the starting line from the course side to the pre-start side entirely, then starts in the direction of the first mark:

HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?


I think Hobie has it right, kind of. That boat may be in the direction of the first mark, but by the black flag rules, they aren't technically OCS.

1-The RO may not get the call completely correct because it can be tough to keep track of a larger fleet, but redress should take care of it.

2- The boat never technically started, so therefore should be called DNS. Doesn't matter if it's a black flag or not, they never actually started.

Don't have a rule book handy, but I could probably cite some rule numbers/definitions if you would like.


You state that you agree with Hobie, but you actually seem to be saying something different. Specifically, for case 2 you suggest the score should be DNS, but Hobie thinks it should be OCS - I agree with Hobie.

Again, DNS is not the only score for a boat that fails to start - both DNS and OCS are, depending on the circumstances.

#9 Ballast Technician

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:25 AM

[SNIP]


2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?

DNS :)

No OCS in 30.2 ore 30.3 that i see :)


No mentions of DNS in 30.2 ore 30.3 either...

#10 Brass

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:38 AM

merican rules ?

Que?

Americans use the same RRS as the rest of us, as far as I am aware.

You got something particular in mind?

#11 Presuming Ed

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:25 AM

A11 SCORING ABBREVIATIONS

DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)
OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1.

Nothing more needed.

#12 Obsessed

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:39 AM

A11 SCORING ABBREVIATIONS

DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)
OCS Did not start; on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal and failed to start, or broke rule 30.1.

Nothing more needed.


BFD - Big Fucking Deal?

#13 Snaggletooth

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 11:11 AM


[SNIP]


2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?

DNS :)

No OCS undere 30.2 ore 30.3 that i see :)


No mentions of DNS in 30.2 ore 30.3 either...

fixtit :)

#14 Gone Drinking

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:43 PM

What difference does it make what they get scored. A DNS and an OCS are the same points.

#15 Brass

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:54 PM

What difference does it make what they get scored. A DNS and an OCS are the same points.

You're quite right. Even a BFD only attracts the same points as a DNF or OCS.

The DNS/OCS issue is just an arcane discussion among rules wonks about precise application of the rules.

BFD gets a bit more problematical if a boat is wrongly categorised BFD and the race is restarted or resailed.

#16 Jem

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 01:05 PM

i'm bored

#17 Brass

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:53 PM

So, at a Black Flag start, a Race Office, in a starboard end race committee boat, makes the starting signal, happy that his voice recorder has got all the BFD miscreants, then about 10 seconds later sees a boat, an entrant in the class just started, approach from over his right shoulder, on the course side of the race committee boat, from outside the course,

1. The boat crosses the starting line from the course side to the pre-start side entirely, then starts in the direction of the first mark:

HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

2. The boat dips back, obviously trying to dip-start, but does not completely cross the starting line onto the pre-start side before hardening on and sailing off in the direction of the first mark

NOW, HOW DO YOU THINK THE RO IS MOST LIKELY TO SCORE THIS BOAT?

Any difference between what you think the RO is likely to do and what the rules discussion above indicates is the correct thing to do?


So, we're all agreed that it's not likely that the RO will mistakenly BFD the boat in either case?




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