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Monohull vs Multihull


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#1 USA4182

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:52 PM

OK, so the wanker Regatta Committee at my club, in a complete and transparent act of cronyism, has decided to allow a multihull to sail in our club races under PHRF. The boat in question is a Corsair 31, and the competition includes mostly cruiser/racers with PHRF in the mid to upper hundreds and a few J24's. My question is, is there any way to properly rate a multihull to sail against monohulls?

I have tried in vain to explain to them that PHRF is based on the speed potential of a boat and that there really isn't any single number rating system that works. We have even asked a member of US Sailing Offshore Council to chime in and he says that it just doesn't work. He said that even the areas that rate multis in PHRF are for racing multis vs multis, not multi vs monos. They won't hear it because of they are all so up the ass of the multi owner that they know what he had for lunch.

Anyway....
Does anyone else out there have any experience with this or can provide any insight in how to handle this.
The races in question are non spinnaker, using government marks and typically include a windward leg and two reaches. As you can guess, unless he does something remarkably stupid or the conditions are abnormal, the multihull wins.

Flame on.....

#2 Fat Point Jack

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

At this past weekend's Conquistador Cup a Farrier 31 rated -24. There are several versions of this boat.

A Corsair 31D at the 2009 Buzzelli Multihull Regatta at -21.

Try West Florida PHRF. If you log in maybe there are more to compare with.

Is it fair?

Probably not.

Will it be fun?

The more the merrier.

It's

#3 TheFlash

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:20 PM

OK, so the wanker Regatta Committee at my club, in a complete and transparent act of cronyism, has decided to allow a multihull to sail in our club races under PHRF. The boat in question is a Corsair 31, and the competition includes mostly cruiser/racers with PHRF in the mid to upper hundreds and a few J24's. My question is, is there any way to properly rate a multihull to sail against monohulls?



in a word, no

but friends don't let friends race PHRF. If you do - don't take it seriously.

When PHRF works, its when the boats are "alike" , not only mono/mono or multi/multi, but also in narrow rating bands.

#4 Surf City Racing

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:49 PM

OK, so the wanker Regatta Committee at my club, in a complete and transparent act of cronyism, has decided to allow a multihull to sail in our club races under PHRF.


How dare that wanker, volunteer race committee let another boat race with your 4ksb! Fukrs! And a multihull? I'd go find a new club, there's obviously some nefarious back-door dealings there! Lawsuit?

Out the club! Field trip! :D

#5 rustylaru

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:50 PM

OK, so the wanker Regatta Committee at my club, in a complete and transparent act of cronyism, has decided to allow a multihull to sail in our club races under PHRF. The boat in question is a Corsair 31, and the competition includes mostly cruiser/racers with PHRF in the mid to upper hundreds and a few J24's. My question is, is there any way to properly rate a multihull to sail against monohulls?

I have tried in vain to explain to them that PHRF is based on the speed potential of a boat and that there really isn't any single number rating system that works. We have even asked a member of US Sailing Offshore Council to chime in and he says that it just doesn't work. He said that even the areas that rate multis in PHRF are for racing multis vs multis, not multi vs monos. They won't hear it because of they are all so up the ass of the multi owner that they know what he had for lunch.

Anyway....
Does anyone else out there have any experience with this or can provide any insight in how to handle this.
The races in question are non spinnaker, using government marks and typically include a windward leg and two reaches. As you can guess, unless he does something remarkably stupid or the conditions are abnormal, the multihull wins.

Flame on.....
[/quote]

If It is nonspin racing around cans then "the more the merry" must be the rule your looking for.

#6 trenace

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:59 PM

OK, so the wanker Regatta Committee at my club, in a complete and transparent act of cronyism, has decided to allow a multihull to sail in our club races under PHRF. The boat in question is a Corsair 31, and the competition includes mostly cruiser/racers with PHRF in the mid to upper hundreds and a few J24's. My question is, is there any way to properly rate a multihull to sail against monohulls?


Does "properly" mean, with a singe handicap number that will be correct for all wind conditions and types of course? Absolutely not.

By that standard of "properly," it's impossible to "properly" rate any two boats that are substantially different. In one set of conditions, sailed equally well one boat will be much more likely to win, and in another set of conditions, the opposite will be true. The effect is stronger the more different the boats are.

The races in question are non spinnaker, using government marks and typically include a windward leg and two reaches. As you can guess, unless he does something remarkably stupid or the conditions are abnormal, the multihull wins.


That depends on the rating.

This is PHRF racing anyway, and you are concerned about "properly" rating?

Why not invite the guy to provide his own number, with the hint that "show us how fast you are, how good of a number do you think you can meet?" and a hint that if he gives himself an easy number, it's going to look pretty silly when he "wins" on time correction using his own number.

Then for following races, adjust the number if needed according to what you saw on the course.

That's probably about as good as you're going to get. Maybe he'll give himself a challenging number, in which case it will be as fair as it can get; or maybe he'll give himself a gimme number, in which case you can mock him among yourselves all you want, which it sounds like you are probably doing already anyway.

#7 USA4182

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:16 PM

First off Surf City Racing, f off, find another topic to be a dick about, start with yourself. nuff said.
Of course this is bullshit YC politics.

I know this is "club" racing, and I understand the more the merrier concept, but there is a perpetual trophy for this series which goes back like 30 years and it is important to folks, some try very hard, its important to them, some don't care. Bottom line, if you keep finishes and are going to put someone's name on a perpetual then things should be done correctly.

As for PHRF.
Of course there is no single rating system which works for all boats across all conditions. No Shit.....
PHRF is not perfect, not close, but its what we have, and at least it provides reasonable racing for boats of like types, displacement boats. Trying to get an idea if anyone is mixing and matching fleets and what reasonable numbers might be for the C31. Currently the guy is racing at -10, but that number was pulled out of someone's ass.


Continue flames.....

#8 krash

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:28 PM

I have an R33 that I race PHRF on Wed nights against Flying Tigers, Melges 30, etc. If the course is less than 4 miles, they correct over me. If it's a longer court I usually hold my time. last year I was rated -51, this year I asked for a -81 to make it more of a challenge on the longer courses.

There are numerous trophies and bragging rights involved, but hey, it's just sailboat racing. With the decline in our sports, we need todo whatever it takes to get butts on boats, and boats on the starting line.

-Mike

#9 Surf City Racing

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:41 PM

First off Surf City Racing, f off, find another topic to be a dick about, start with yourself. nuff said.



I've got an idea! Don't laugh, but you should leave your boat parked for 2 months, and hop on the volunteer race committee boat in an effort to get a bird's eye view of how this egregious multihull behaves on course. Adjust the rating accordingly.

Go read the last line of Krash's post. Take a deep breath, and realign.

#10 the loose cannon

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

Portsmouth numbers below - go there - and gut check your fleet vs those numbers and move on... it is the only rating based on results - you should support it or stop whining about PHRF politics.

F-31 Tri Stock M&J F-31 65.4 72.0 67.0 66.1 66.2
F-31R Tri All Sails F-31R 61.9 65.4 64.1 62.5 59.9

#11 AClass USA 230

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:08 PM

OK, so the wanker Regatta Committee at my club, in a complete and transparent act of cronyism, has decided to allow a multihull to sail in our club races under PHRF. The boat in question is a Corsair 31, and the competition includes mostly cruiser/racers with PHRF in the mid to upper hundreds and a few J24's. My question is, is there any way to properly rate a multihull to sail against monohulls?

I have tried in vain to explain to them that PHRF is based on the speed potential of a boat and that there really isn't any single number rating system that works. We have even asked a member of US Sailing Offshore Council to chime in and he says that it just doesn't work. He said that even the areas that rate multis in PHRF are for racing multis vs multis, not multi vs monos. They won't hear it because of they are all so up the ass of the multi owner that they know what he had for lunch.

Anyway....
Does anyone else out there have any experience with this or can provide any insight in how to handle this.
The races in question are non spinnaker, using government marks and typically include a windward leg and two reaches. As you can guess, unless he does something remarkably stupid or the conditions are abnormal, the multihull wins.

Flame on.....


USA 4182. I live on the northshore of Lake Pontchartrain and own a Corsair Sprint 750 trimaran. Big boat racing on the lake is done using PHRF. On the northshore, there is a serious participation issue and our presence (for now) is welcomed at our local club races. We rate 33 PHRF which was developed for racing against other multihulls. What we have found (in five years of local club racing)is that in any wind strength under 10 knots, we find our rating is not far off other PHRF monohulls that rate in the same performance band sailing on the lake (think J-130 and Melges 32). At my own club, I have to be on my game to beat a well sailed J-30, Hobie 33, and Wavelength 24 on corrected time in light conditions. Once the breeze builds solidly over 10 knots, our boat shifts into another performance mode and we'd have to be asleep at the wheel to not win the race elapsed and corrected against any PHRF monohull. What I have offered to do is to lower my rating if the conditions warrant it (over 12 knots) to between 0-5 (we still need to sail some more races to figure out where we really need to be). Multihulls have the similar issue in PHRF as monohulls that can plane downwind (i.e. sportboats). PHRF was developed around displacement keelboats that really never sail more than their design hull speed. The system never anticipated boats that have increased performance modes as the conditions change.

So perhaps its time to re-consider how to modify or replace PHRF with a rating system that can make racing amongst boats with significant performance differences somewhat equitable. Portsmouth comes to mind as it does a great job of rating a boat for its performance in different conditions. Modifying PHRF to allow a multiple rating for certain boats who have changing performance modes in different conditions is another option. What I find frustrating is the rigid mindset of many PHRF chairmen in different areas who are either biased against other types of boats or are too rigid to think "outside the box" to allow more boats to be included in local fun beer can racing.

Be open and welcoming to the Corsair 31 owner. If he feels accepted by his fellow sailors, he will be more willing to work with your fleet to find a rating (or ratings) that makes for as fair racing as possible.

Hope this helps.

#12 USA4182

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 07:58 PM

All good stuff and I agree with 99%. I don't really want to exclude this person or the boat(although the owner thinks I am out to get rid of him), that is not my goal, I want some kind of fair and equitable way to compete for all the sailors. Its not cool to lose a race before you leave the mooring, if you get my drift.

As for PHRF, I have to agree, maybe its time for a more detailed look at the system.
We all love it for its simplicity, but given the advent of sportboats, the large number of shapes and sizes of displacement boats, and a small but strong multihull contingent maybe we need to think about multiple numbers. I agree, in light air the Corsair is not as much of a problem, especially upwind, but in 10 knots of air and a reach, there isn't a monohull around that can compete(as validated by A Class US 230 above). Science and Physics are typically rules of law and there are no ways around the difference in physics between the two types of boats.

There is such a propensity to protect the sacred cow of PHRF that noone wants to address this problem. I think the more that sportboats show up and the bigger the speed potential gets in relationship to windspeed between the planing boats and displacement boats that hopefully this will come to some one's attention. The problem is not limited to monohull vs multihull and I am sure I am not the only one who is frustrated by this.

OK, how do we start to effect changes, approach US Sailing???? Who at US Sailing????

#13 I'moutahere

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:04 PM

You cannot handicap multis against monos. You could add sportsboats to that "cannot".

You will end up with a lot of whinging mono owners on some days, and a whinging multi owner on other days. Seen it all happen.

Do you want to decimate your fleet? You will gain 1 multihull and lose several monohulls. It WILL happen.

Set up 2 divisions. Mono & multi.

#14 Hobie Dog

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:36 PM

johnny, I think the problem is the Corsair is the only multi in the club so it would be a fleet of 1.

Mitch, You are spot on! PHRF only really works with boats in the same rating band.


USA4182, If this guy wants to go out and play with himself every race then let him, you will only see him at the start. After a while he will realize that playing with others is way better than playing with yourself... :lol: With this boat racing against the fleet you describe he should win just about any race so let him collect his pickle dishes if that's what he wants. However, I do understand your club has a perpetual trophy that has history to it and you want fair racing for that award. There is no easy answer. Maybe word the award for the perpetual trophy such that it is only open to mono hulls??? I assume that is how it has been for 30 years.

#15 DryArmour

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:45 PM

johnny, I think the problem is the Corsair is the only multi in the club so it would be a fleet of 1.

Mitch, You are spot on! PHRF only really works with boats in the same rating band.


USA4182, If this guy wants to go out and play with himself every race then let him, you will only see him at the start. After a while he will realize that playing with others is way better than playing with yourself... :lol: With this boat racing against the fleet you describe he should win just about any race so let him collect his pickle dishes if that's what he wants. However, I do understand your club has a perpetual trophy that has history to it and you want fair racing for that award. There is no easy answer. Maybe word the award for the perpetual trophy such that it is only open to mono hulls??? I assume that is how it has been for 30 years.


I think what Johnny is suggesting is that you set up a 4ksb division (Moderate to heavy displacement) and then a sport boat division that would include multihulls. Without wind and sea state variables it is near impossible to do a good job with PHRF numbers and get a Cal 25 an equitable rating against an F25C or similar. The same would apply to a Catalina 30 rating against a Melges 30.

#16 I'moutahere

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:49 PM

johnny, I think the problem is the Corsair is the only multi in the club so it would be a fleet of 1.

Mitch, You are spot on! PHRF only really works with boats in the same rating band.


USA4182, If this guy wants to go out and play with himself every race then let him, you will only see him at the start. After a while he will realize that playing with others is way better than playing with yourself... :lol: With this boat racing against the fleet you describe he should win just about any race so let him collect his pickle dishes if that's what he wants. However, I do understand your club has a perpetual trophy that has history to it and you want fair racing for that award. There is no easy answer. Maybe word the award for the perpetual trophy such that it is only open to mono hulls??? I assume that is how it has been for 30 years.

Exactly. A fleet of 1? He builds it up to a fleet of 3 or 4 - or he goes to a club where he can race multihulls. Of course it might be that he won't do that because he wants to be "king of the kids".

Special trophy? Goes to the division with the most competitors. Mono or Multi. In the NOR - no arguments.

#17 dangerzone777

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:58 PM

I have raced my multi in several monohull fleets over the years. In some I was allowed to race for the trophy's some not. I also owned a monohull for 12 years. My feeling in the regular races let him race normal. If it is a major regatta or for one of the main trophys's then he can race but is not eligible for the prize. Also, I would expect him to do his share with race committee or whatever the other racers help with. Some of the clubs I have belonged to because of small size the race committee rotates among the racers. We need to work out how to get more boats out not less. Who knows if some people see him out with a multi then other people may want to get one and race with him:)

#18 Foolish

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:18 PM

At the Turkey Head club in Victoria, Geneva (multi PHRF 90) and Peptide (Moore 24 PHRF 168) swapped bullets in the fall race series. These are distance races, no ATB. I've won against Geneva as well.

1st Geneva F-24 MK2 90 1.0 2.0 2.0 1.0
2nd Peptide Moore 24 168 2.0 1.0 1.0 2.0

#19 USA4182

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:49 PM

I wish it was as simple as he does not count for the Perpetual. It was actually that way a few years ago until his cronies came in and changed the rule to let him in with everyone else. Obviously he's winning,unless it blows less than 5 knots(or he really really screws up) and he is still a racing newbie so he's pickle dish happy, anything for that damn trophy, even if I have to bring a gun to a knife fight. If he were a true Corinthian he would bow out, that's not happening, he can't even spell Corinthian. He can't even admit he is winning because of his boat, not his skill or lack thereof.
The worst part is there are other guys out there that are sailing in the true spirit and end up losing places and trophies because he is included.

#20 trenace

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:59 PM

I dunno...

Conceivably, it could be approached as "You know, right now it's not clear, is the rating number just not working for your boat compared to the others, or is it just about exactly right and you're just sailing super-well? No way to tell really with you sailing the boat every race, because the boat being faster, might be all you. Why don't we have one of the other guys helm your boat one race, and use that time to figure what your boat's rating should be?"

And pick an average-wind day, or better, somewhat more breeze than usual but not ridiculously so. Pick someone good. Correct the time so as to tie with the fastest other corrected time, not just average. Be nice.

The approach of having a guy propose his own number (previous post) has been done and has worked, but from what you're saying, won't work with this guy.

I don't personally know of what I describe above ever being done, so can't say from experience if it can work.

But realistically, it seems fair enough.

Of course, you'd really need light, medium, and heavy air numbers if you want to be reasonable across the board rather than having it be largely a crap shoot according to breeze, but at least the above would be reasonable for low-stakes fun sailing.

#21 walterbshaffer

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:14 PM

I have tried in vain to explain to them that PHRF is based on the speed potential of a boat


Really? I thought it was based on observed performance. But what do I know.

and that there really isn't any single number rating system that works

Anyway....
Does anyone else out there have any experience with this or can provide any insight in how to handle this.
The races in question are non spinnaker, using government marks and typically include a windward leg and two reaches.


Try a triple number system like in SoCal w buoy, random leg and offwind course ratings; I'm guessing that the reachiness of the course plays to the strength of his boat type and acts unfavorably to the monos which might do much better on a WW/LW course? The triple number system helps account for a particular design's advantage on a particualr type of course.

As you can guess, unless he does something remarkably stupid or the conditions are abnormal, the multihull wins.


Give him a provisional rating, race a few races and then adjust his rating so that his corrected times place him in the middle of the fleet.

Properly and impartially applied a rating based on observed performance will account for local conditions, including course type.

#22 THOR

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:52 PM

most of the times a multi will do alright, but aint winning either unless well sailed. I got basically thrown out a club when I bought my Corsair and was winning. They forgot that I was winning with about the same time margins the two preceding years with a J 30 ... ouch. This by the way has nothing much to do with how well I sailed, but how bad the others were doing ....

this sounds pretty arrogant ... which I am not... just to make a quick point. On bigger events I got my ass handed to me from the better sailors .... ( Interestingly enough, again with about the same delta as I got my ass handed to me with the J 30 )

I am not saying that Phrf works ... especially over a big rating spread. What I am saying however is that a Catalina 25 has a problem against a Melges 32 no matter what. ( about the same probleme she would have against a Corsair 31 ) If the spread becomes too wide than it become a little iffy, even if the Phrf Numbers are quite alright for the different boats.


Than comes the whinning from folks who have 2 tons of stuff in their boat, leave it in the water over the winter and save the expensive paint, have 30 year old totally blown out sails, dont know what the traveller does, have their sunshades up and and and ...


We have 4 fleets
Sportboats/Multi
Spinnaker
JAM Dry sailed
Jam Wet Sailed

and voila no more whining and bickering ... At the end of the year we buy a couple extra bragging flaggs for the first 3 ( if there are three boats in the fleet !!!! ) I dont care how many boats we have in the seprate fleets as long as EVERYBODY can go out there and race ....

Perpetual year end trophy goes to the biggest fleet with the most individual starts ( Jam Wet ) if all of the sudden we get more sportboats or Multis .. than they will get it ( not likely, and we would probaly buy another trophy just to keep the peace ) and everybody is happy

And yes everybody can compare the times ( mostly anyhow, we do have W/L courses for Sportboats/Multi and SPinnaker fleets and OM for the Jam fleets ...in our bigger races )

The system seems to work, and everybody is happy.

Now quit whining and get that bottom cleaned up and take all that fluff out of the boat, volunteer for RC, get involved in a positive way. And be INCLUSIVE .....


thor
BYC Commodore

#23 PIL007

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:53 PM


I have tried in vain to explain to them that PHRF is based on the speed potential of a boat


Really? I thought it was based on observed performance. But what do I know.

and that there really isn't any single number rating system that works

Anyway....
Does anyone else out there have any experience with this or can provide any insight in how to handle this.
The races in question are non spinnaker, using government marks and typically include a windward leg and two reaches.


Try a triple number system like in SoCal w buoy, random leg and offwind course ratings; I'm guessing that the reachiness of the course plays to the strength of his boat type and acts unfavorably to the monos which might do much better on a WW/LW course? The triple number system helps account for a particular design's advantage on a particualr type of course.

As you can guess, unless he does something remarkably stupid or the conditions are abnormal, the multihull wins.


Give him a provisional rating, race a few races and then adjust his rating so that his corrected times place him in the middle of the fleet.

Properly and impartially applied a rating based on observed performance will account for local conditions, including course type.



Absolutely right...get some history over a season on all facters and then rate it accordingly. The fact that they have 2 reaches is the biggest hurdle and unknown. No trophy for the first season could work...?
It happened at our local and it was a shit fight at first but be patient as it can be sorted over time. We eventually ended up with a multi div. but had a few fun years with no angst befor that. A lot of the mono guys swapped rides for something different and we all co-existed.
Funny thing happened at CYC Wednesday chook raffle the other day.....Normal monos racing around the harbour when the ORMA 60 trimaran (ex bank pop-kas- Langman) machine came out for a spin. The mono old school had the shits saying he was in the way and posing..comments of "what a wanker", but the non or inexperience guests on board were "ooowing and aaaahring" and basically asking a million questions about this insanely fast beast zooming around. He never once impeded anyone. I just found it typical of the mono vs multi attitude that i dislike. I for one would love to have been on it blasting around at 25kts but instead i had to settle for a mundane 15kts on a maxi......damn.

#24 Basiliscus

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:39 PM

From what I've seen, it takes a pretty good sailor to sail a Corsair 31 to its rating, so he may not be as threatening as he looks. If you have a lone C31 wanting to sail with a fleet of monohulls, the precise rating number won't be all that important. The results will depend more on what happens after he finishes. If the wind is dying, he wins, and if the wind picks up, he loses. In a light-air venue, the biggest effect may be that he can finish under the time limit when otherwise the race would not be scored because nobody finished in time.

If you let him in, other multis may follow, and then you'll be able to give them their own start and everyone will be happy.

#25 Touch of Gray

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:54 PM

last year in a beer can we got a big ass cruising multi. (Catana 46 or something) Opinion varied about giving it a rating. Turned out to be slooow as shit. But to placate the masses I decided to have a multi trophy. Made the Fast, Half Fast and Slow fleets placated going in, and made the owner very happy as he got recognized. I'd hoped to parlay that into a better multi turn out, but that didn't happen.

#26 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 12:55 AM

Hey USA4182 - Ok if I call ya 81? - We have a similar problem at our club. They have let this chap join who is a friend of one of the Directors. Problem is this chap has dark skin and will obviously win the 'hit on an opti mum' season point score. It is all club politics but we can't have people that are different from us in our clubs can we. Before you know it we will have lots of dark skinned people involved in the sport and the club will get very busy! This has got to be stopped!



#27 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:22 AM

My favorite topic, and it's all been said. So I scored it.
People who understand something about single value handicap systems and dissimilar boats, outnumber the uneducated about 3/1. Which isn't that bad.

"Same narrow PHRF band" is an improvement but dissimilar performing boats can have the same average performance. Planning and non-planning boats for example.
People who want an improved system will be disappointed, as no one wants to deal with the additional complexity, hassle and costs, for questionable accuracy improvements. Wind ranges and point-of-sail categories are the first ideas. But in coastal racing, when does a race occur in a single wind range or point-of-sail? Or even the same mix for 2 different boats? How does "math" compare boats sailing in different wind.

Accept that PHRF racing is like poker and that there is a luck component in the cards you draw. Or go one design.
The best possible single value result is a system that treats all sailors equally/fairly and provides an opportunity to win once in a while. While getting us all out sailing.

#28 I'moutahere

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:41 AM

My favorite topic, and it's all been said. So I scored it.
People who understand something about single value handicap systems and dissimilar boats, outnumber the uneducated about 3/1. Which isn't that bad.

"Same narrow PHRF band" is an improvement but dissimilar performing boats can have the same average performance. Planning and non-planning boats for example.
People who want an improved system will be disappointed, as no one wants to deal with the additional complexity, hassle and costs, for questionable accuracy improvements. Wind ranges and point-of-sail categories are the first ideas. But in coastal racing, when does a race occur in a single wind range or point-of-sail? Or even the same mix for 2 different boats? How does "math" compare boats sailing in different wind.

Accept that PHRF racing is like poker and that there is a luck component in the cards you draw. Or go one design.
The best possible single value result is a system that treats all sailors equally/fairly and provides an opportunity to win once in a while. While getting us all out sailing.

The only way to run these kind of races is to use the HAT factor. Nobody can complain about that.

#29 auscat

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:20 AM

If you run your races around a fixed course why not run it as a stern chaser?Slowest starts first fastest last.In theory you all finish together.

We used this system at a club I helped set up that had everything from a Swan 65 through live aboard cruisers to fast racing multis and a wharram cat.

If you won you started later next week and last place started earlier.With this system everyone will win at some stage and there is no bitching because the handicap change is the same for every boat who ever wins.

#30 mad

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:25 PM

Monohull vs Multihull


Posted Image

#31 walterbshaffer

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:31 PM


People who understand something about single value handicap systems and dissimilar boats, outnumber the uneducated about 3/1. Which isn't that bad.


I think the issue the OP is facing is that they are (probably) using a single number buoy rating most suited to buoy courses but are running reaching courses which exacerbates the inapropriateness of the applied rating.

In other words they understand thier system really well but just might not want or know how to tweak it for the most accurate result.

#32 Mud sailor

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:33 PM

I would look at running the races in time on time format rather than time on distance. If you have a big rating spread this should make the results closer.

#33 BeachbumII

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:01 PM

Maybe this guy wants his daughter to say: my dad is the fastest sailor around the lake. Later it will turn out to be: my dad has the fastetst boat on the lake. Funny thing is that both statements piss off the same amount of people. Not the same people, but the amount of complains is a constant. Anyway handicap racing is fun and people take it seriously. However from the real sport-viewpoint handicap racing is like: among the legless an one-legger is a king. On smaller boats winner gets solved by ratings and who knows who, on bigger boats by funding.

#34 AlienBowman

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:23 PM

I agree with LimeyUS. Time-on-Time PHRF will help narrow the fleet with such a wide rating band. It is also more appropriate since the marks are not adjusted for conditions to give a pure windward-leeward course. This is why God invented one designs.

#35 JohnSangmeister

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:26 PM

We've raced our ProSail 40 in PHRF fleets with the expectation that we just wanted to have fun. Seemed to work out OK, grateful to be included in the mix with friends. BTW - they're going to race the America's Cup in catamarans...

#36 I'moutahere

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:29 PM

We've raced our ProSail 40 in PHRF fleets with the expectation that we just wanted to have fun. Seemed to work out OK, grateful to be included in the mix with friends. BTW - they're going to race the America's Cup in catamarans...


What a bloody stupid comment. Trolling to be sure.

America's Cup is not handicap racing - yet.

#37 Koukel

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:58 PM

Easy, make everyone race with biminis up. His is like artistry in canvas and plastic.

Takes guts to rag on your race committee in public. Like telling your waiter he's getting stiffed before the food shows up.

Good luck with that.

Koukel

#38 Aviator

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:45 PM

Wow, don't get me started. I used to head the PHRF handicapping for our local fleet back when I used to really care.

Many of the comments already posted are dead on, though I have always disagreed that PHRF is bad as everyone thinks it is. Yes, it works best if you have narrow rating bands and can create divisions for like boat-types. But the reality is that in most club fleets, if did that you would end up with divisions with 2 or 3 boats in each.

USA4182, I am curious about how many boats are racing in your fleet and how many classes there are - soemthing you haven't mentioned in your posts.

A simple answer is that, while racing a multi against monos is very difficult to rate, if this multi is winning all the time then the rating he has been given is simply wrong. You mentioned that you typically sail around government marks so I would assume (as our fleet does too) that your courses are sailed repeatedly. With enough races, it is a pretty simple statistical calculation to come up with a rating for the boat that would even out the scoring (of course, PHRF frowns on this because you are going to be taking sailing ability in to account without a large database to even it out). But there is no reason that you can't come up with your own local fleet variant of PHRF to make the racing more enjoyable for everyone.

I would also add that, as others have mentioned, time-on-time is vastly superior to time-on-distance. There was a lot of complaining when our Handicapping committee (yes, you should have a handicapping committee that is not the regatta committee - also a challenge in a small fleet but very worthwhile if you can swing it) proposed moving to TOT, but the deltas in the corrected results tightened up significantly.

#39 j24vt

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:03 PM

I'm on our local PHRF Rating Committee. My first question is are you using Time-on-Time or Time-on-Distance? Time-on-time works much better for groups of boats with a wide range of ratings. You have to group the boats in pretty narrow rating bands for Time-on-Distance to work, especially for long distance races.

My preliminary recommendation for a base rating if a Corsair 31 was being added to our fleet would be -24. Selected base ratings from our area for reference:

Catalina 30 : 183
J24 : 171
Soling : 150
Etchells : 126
J-80 ODR : 120
J-29 OB FR : 117
Viper 640 ODR : 102
J-35 : 72
Archambault A40 : 36
Corsair 28 : 36
Beneteau 44.7 : 33
J-122 : 30
X-46 : 27

We tend to err on the side of caution when adding a new boat rating into the fleet. It's better to have one boat whining that their rating is too low than to have 20 boats whining the a rating is too high.

Bottom line: most trophies will end up in a box in the basement. Don't get too hung up on winning and enjoy the time on the water with your friends. :)

#40 DEAD MONEY

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:55 AM

Very, very difficult (read Virtually Impossible)to have a level playing field usuing PHRF to rate a Multi (and a fast one to boot) vs 4 Knot POS Mono. Once the wind gets over 10 and the Multi can Plane.......

#41 Conny71

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:07 AM

Enjoy the ride.

#42 Triceratops

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:10 AM

Anyone else notice the boat in the pic is not an F31?
Tri

#43 The Owner

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:21 AM

Interesting topic. We recently revised our PHRF regs to take some wording that allowed multis to race against monos. The wording had been added by the former handicap chair who happens to own a 50' multi. When he got wind of the change he went crazy. To me you just can't reasonably have them together.

#44 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:26 AM

Anyone else notice the boat in the pic is not an F31? Tri

All Tri's look alike, right?

TOT works better for high performance boats, boats that go faster with more wind.
TOD works very well for boats that spend most of their time in most races at hull speed. Not for canting keelers.
TOT is not a panacea for large rating spreads.

Performance curve singularity points are an unaccounted for issue with a single value handicap system. When is a sail change required, or a reef? At what wind strength or point of sail? When does a boat plane? When does a hull fly? All mess up simple TOT proportionality.
Still it is better for high performance boats.

Until the race extends into the SoCal diurnal night. 20 knots TWS in the day, 0-1 knots at night. Might as well go back to TOD. Boat performances converge at 0 knots wind. They all drift at the same speed. Though Maxis are a lot faster than multis in the 1-2 knot range.

Handicap race for the joy of sailing. Not pickle dishes.

#45 Incorrigible

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:56 PM

We have had a single 26' Tri racing in our club for a very long time. We assign him a PHRF number based on over 10 years of collected data. We race uphill/downhill in all our regular series and do some point to point stuff for variety. When its light he struggles and when the wind picks up he is more competetive. On the point to point stuff, which usually includes some good reaching, he is all but unbeatable.

Is it fair? Probably not but more so for him than for the rest as the number is based on real data. We occasionally hear rumbling about how he shouldn't be racing with the monos but it usually goes away quietly.

The more important question is, how do you tell a member in good standing that he cannot race his boat in his own club. He is a good sailor and a much better person. He is an active member, does tons of volunteer work and supports the club with his $$$$$. A great asset to our club so......we welcome him to race. It's a no brainer because we have the data.

#46 sailor614

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

At our club we had separate one design/level starts and PHRF banded starts (Stars, Sharks, 1/4 Tonne) . One of the level starts was for old quarter tonners, and over the years they extended it to their friends with boats of similar speed that may not have been designed to the rule. Theses things evolve at all clubs. The problem was that the PHRF band 200+ was very thin, 7 boats, of which 3 were very irregular attendees. The ironic thing is that 3 of these boats including mine were Sprinta Sports which were actiually built under the quarter tonne rule, but years ago the level class group arbitrarily put a floor of 221+ on participating in their level class. Even though they called it a Quarter tonne class, the Sprintas who are 1/4 tonners, were shut out because they would dominate and shut them out of podiums.

We wanted better racing so we forced all the 200+ boats together to get a bigger more cosistent fleet of better sailors. There was some squawking initially but since all scoring sheets were published with elapsed time and corrected time, at the end of each night we announced the PHRF winner overall, and the winner of the old 1/4 tonne gang and and let them decide who was included to be scored level. Why you ask? Well In the end it would make life easier for the RC with fewer starts. Second for the old PHRF 200+ group who frequently races 3 or 4 boats against each other, even if you wrapped a chute you were on the podium, now there is much more on the line and to get a podium you have sail clean and not make mistakes. Alot more pride is lost when you get creamed by boats that you should be a leg up on.

Let the guy in, but score a separate race within a race, everyone will eventually ignore the result that includes the wildly misrated boats, and they may eventually realise how rediculous they look. Everyone who wants to race should, it raises everyones game the more that are out there. If it can be done with little or no additional effort from the RC great.

my 2 cents.

#47 Joli

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:00 PM

Buy a fleet of Thistles.

#48 shaggybaxter

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:28 PM

I can absolutely guarantee you that he death of all yacht clubs has preceded by lots of comments like "we've never done it before this so we won't now".
(I could also guarantee you the same for all non for profit org that needs to rely on membership.)

Change is the key. We have to accept things change, all the time. You have to change with it. You don't, your dead.
The multi seems like a logical extension of the inevitable.
Put em in, give him a high rating and let several races bring it into line. Enjoy adding another now keen enthusiastic member to the club, he might end up being the handicapper!
SB





#49 DMM

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:45 PM

USA4182... You are a being wanker. This is round the (fixed) buoys, local, club, beercan, PHRF racing, not the Med Cup. Sorry, pal, but there is no way to make it "fair", only less egregiously unfair. If you want "fair" go find a one-design fleet.

Welcome the new boat to your fleet, and give him a hardy "Nice race, asshole!" when he does well.

Oh, and be sure to thank your Race Committee for their efforts to organize your racing for you.

One more thing; try to quit being such a dick.

#50 Crump's Brother

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:16 PM

Anyway....
Does anyone else out there have any experience with this or can provide any insight in how to handle this.



You could try hit 'em with your purse...
or
HTFU dude.

KB

#51 lake Pee

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:26 PM

[quote name='USA4182' timestamp='1331236715' post='3617755']
, I want some kind of fair and equitable way to compete for all the sailors. Its not cool to lose a race before you leave the mooring, if you get my drift.

This idea only applies to you and the other monohull sailors? What about all the 8 knot windward/leeward races the F31 wont have a chance in hell of winning even before they leave the dock? is that cool?


Idea 1: Sell your 4ksb, buy a F28r and collect all the pickle dishes yourself, since you think it is so easy. This probably wont work for you, as you would have to learn some new stuff about sailing...

Idea 2: Sell your 4ksb, buy a 10 year old Miata, join the nearest SCCA club, and never go sailing again. It would be good for sailing in general for people with your attitude to find some other sand box to play in.

Idea 3: HTFU, quit yer bitchin, buy some new sails for your 4ksb and go enjoy sailling.

#52 bibs

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:45 PM

toilet PLungers stick well to multi's too ya know......

First off Surf City Racing, f off, find another topic to be a dick about, start with yourself. nuff said.
Of course this is bullshit YC politics.

I know this is "club" racing, and I understand the more the merrier concept, but there is a perpetual trophy for this series which goes back like 30 years and it is important to folks, some try very hard, its important to them, some don't care. Bottom line, if you keep finishes and are going to put someone's name on a perpetual then things should be done correctly.

As for PHRF.
Of course there is no single rating system which works for all boats across all conditions. No Shit.....
PHRF is not perfect, not close, but its what we have, and at least it provides reasonable racing for boats of like types, displacement boats. Trying to get an idea if anyone is mixing and matching fleets and what reasonable numbers might be for the C31. Currently the guy is racing at -10, but that number was pulled out of someone's ass.


Continue flames.....



#53 tikipete

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:30 PM

Anyone ever try to work a pursuit system?

Imagine this scenario: well appointed yacht starts off on a forty mile race, beach cat starts out hours later. They cross the finish line at the same time, yachties refreshed having drinks, beach catters wet, tired and happy. Who had the better day?

#54 DaveSail2

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:45 PM

Most seem to agree

Just have fun

Change Happens:P

#55 I'moutahere

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 11:25 PM

Most seem to agree

Just have fun

Change Happens:P


I suppose some people think it's fun to sail around a course a long way ahead of everybody else, and not actually compete against any other boat.

I guess that's why people build 100' canting keel boats that need an engine running to sail.

#56 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:16 PM

Anyone else notice the boat in the pic is not an F31? Tri

All Tri's look alike, right?


Not just tri's.
At least once a week someone calls my tri a cat.

"Do you actually not know the difference between catamaran and trimaran, or can you just not count to 3 ?"

#57 thumper

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:15 PM

My question is WHY would an F31 want to race against a bunch of mid 100s 4ksbs? Doesn't matter who wins, it's still a wild ass guess rating and someone's not going to be happy. Answer is to faver the good of the masses and tell the F31 to go find his own playmates!

#58 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:37 PM

My question is WHY would an F31 want to race against a bunch of mid 100s 4ksbs?

BEcause that's the boat he chooses to own and sail, and he'd like to race too.

Doesn't matter who wins, it's still a wild ass guess rating and someone's not going to be happy.

True. But a little inclusion and friendship rather than ranting about the RC and the boat owner could go a long way to eliminating unhappiness.

Answer is to faver the good of the masses and tell the F31 to go find his own playmates!

Sure. That would be the easy way out. Nice.
Or perhaps invite him to crew on another boat for a season while you come up with a plan.
Or perhaps over beers explain to him that the ratings simply cannot make it fair to anyone including him, and invite him to race anyway but he gets no eligibility for the Perpetual until he builds a multi fleet that everyone will welcome to the fraternity. And help him get those other multis to join in on the racing. You know, like with a welcoming attitude.
He is after all, a sailor... (as would be his "playmates")

#59 THOR

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:48 PM

word









My question is WHY would an F31 want to race against a bunch of mid 100s 4ksbs?

BEcause that's the boat he chooses to own and sail, and he'd like to race too.

Doesn't matter who wins, it's still a wild ass guess rating and someone's not going to be happy.

True. But a little inclusion and friendship rather than ranting about the RC and the boat owner could go a long way to eliminating unhappiness.

Answer is to faver the good of the masses and tell the F31 to go find his own playmates!

Sure. That would be the easy way out. Nice.
Or perhaps invite him to crew on another boat for a season while you come up with a plan.
Or perhaps over beers explain to him that the ratings simply cannot make it fair to anyone including him, and invite him to race anyway but he gets no eligibility for the Perpetual until he builds a multi fleet that everyone will welcome to the fraternity. And help him get those other multis to join in on the racing. You know, like with a welcoming attitude.
He is after all, a sailor... (as would be his "playmates")



#60 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:57 PM

word



I actually was remembering you as I wrote that.
Do you still enjoy racing your multi with the monos, even though you can't have a trophy? I bet you do. Would you rather have a multi fleet? Of course. But ya got what ya got and make the best of it.

#61 Vincent DePillis

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:34 AM

I raced my F31R in the Scachet Head race yesterday. 12.5 miles downwind, 12.5 miles upwind. Wind 10-20. We beat all but two boats on elapsed time, but are nowhere to be found on the overall results page. With our 0 rating, we would have beaten all of the p1 boats handily. No matter how often I go through this, it rankles. I do understand the rating difficulty, though. I know that I did not sail a perfect race, which, if the ratings were fair, I should have had to do to win on corrected time. We started with our new to us light spinnaker, and found it to be twist prone as the wind built. We took it down 2/3rds of the way down the run and finished the run under main an jib. We should have started with the medium spin and peeled to the little one. We should have reefed the main before rounding, and we should have put on a lot more jib halyard tension before rounding. If we had done all that, I bet we could have finished first overall on elapsed.

I still love the race though. We started last, and caught almost the whole fleet on the beat. We were faster than all but the Santa Cruz 70 and a Kernan 44. We passed boats worth many multiples of our boat, crewed by the flower of Seattle racing fraternity. We were faster than an OD48 and a Club Swan 45, and a J165, etc.. All on a clapped out, misaligned trailer sailer, sailed by three guys on the wrong side of 55, with multiple artificial hips, bad knees and one impressive beer belly, and a tendency to reef early.

So you get your thrills were you can.

So the OD 48 rates -24. We beat them by a couple minutes. If we had a unified system, maybe -24 would be the right rating for us as well. We would have a chance of winning only when the wind is strong, but not too strong, and only if we sail really well. We would be DFLd in every light air race. But he-- at least we would show up on the overall standings, which would be awfully nice.

#62 THOR

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:22 AM


word



I actually was remembering you as I wrote that.
Do you still enjoy racing your multi with the monos, even though you can't have a trophy? I bet you do. Would you rather have a multi fleet? Of course. But ya got what ya got and make the best of it.

lol I do ... and yes its fun, I do keep a little back at the start and dont be super aggressive. And I basically do not have a chance against the very well sailed Melges fleet in short W/L races, the longer distance races... depends on the wind ... but I seem to learn something every time i am out there and certainly have a great time ...
for the smaller club races , yes I am basically sailing alone , but in my own fleet, not to upset anybody, They can check my times and make up their mind, thats good enough for me .... and yes at the end of the season we buy one extra flag and everybody is happy ...:-)

Now with the change from the 28 r to the F33 gonna be interesting, first will be the Phrf number the committie will give me and than no matter what its gonna be its gonna be super tough in anything below 15 .... 20 t0 25 and we are movin ...lol

thor

#63 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 03:07 AM

I suppose some people think it's fun to sail around a course a long way ahead of everybody else


It is kind of fun. You challenge your crew to perform better than they usually do. A crew knows when it performs well and when not. An engineer's perspective is to find the best solution for a problem. And if the problem is to sail as fast as possible in the current conditions, it leads to having a fast boat. And fast is fun. More fun than deluding yourself about handicap accuracy and bragging about "beating others". At the end of the day, whatever gets you out racing is cool. And a day on the ocean beats yard work all to hell. Especially when it wraps up with a beer with your mates.

#64 I'moutahere

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 03:15 AM

I suppose some people think it's fun to sail around a course a long way ahead of everybody else


It is kind of fun. You challenge your crew to perform better than they usually do. A crew knows when it performs well and when not. An engineer's perspective is to find the best solution for a problem. And if the problem is to sail as fast as possible in the current conditions, it leads to having a fast boat. And fast is fun. More fun than deluding yourself about handicap accuracy and bragging about "beating others". At the end of the day, whatever gets you out racing is cool. And a day on the ocean beats yard work all to hell. Especially when it wraps up with a beer with your mates.

Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet and telling everyone you won..

#65 THOR

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:34 PM


I suppose some people think it's fun to sail around a course a long way ahead of everybody else


It is kind of fun. You challenge your crew to perform better than they usually do. A crew knows when it performs well and when not. An engineer's perspective is to find the best solution for a problem. And if the problem is to sail as fast as possible in the current conditions, it leads to having a fast boat. And fast is fun. More fun than deluding yourself about handicap accuracy and bragging about "beating others". At the end of the day, whatever gets you out racing is cool. And a day on the ocean beats yard work all to hell. Especially when it wraps up with a beer with your mates.

Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet and telling everyone you won..


I dont know where you got that out of Bills post which you copied. As far as I read it it means quite the opposite what you are saying ....

just sayin
thor

#66 AClass USA 230

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:45 PM

I suppose some people think it's fun to sail around a course a long way ahead of everybody else


It is kind of fun. You challenge your crew to perform better than they usually do. A crew knows when it performs well and when not. An engineer's perspective is to find the best solution for a problem. And if the problem is to sail as fast as possible in the current conditions, it leads to having a fast boat. And fast is fun. More fun than deluding yourself about handicap accuracy and bragging about "beating others". At the end of the day, whatever gets you out racing is cool. And a day on the ocean beats yard work all to hell. Especially when it wraps up with a beer with your mates.


Two examples of what I hope most would consider real world. This past Saturday, I raced two club races with my Corsair Sprint 750 (24' long) that had staggered starts. One of the best sailed monohulls at our club is a Wavelength 24. Both races were 6 mile W/L courses and in each race we gave the Wavelength an 8.5 minute head start. In the first race in 5-7 knots, we finished behind them by about 100 yards at the finish. In the second race in 11-13 knots we finished about 100 yards in front of them. I've told this owner that I will drop my rating when the wind is above 10-12 knots as my boat's performance increases significantly. It makes for a more challenging race for us whether staggered start or starting together. In another race earlier this year that was a 20 mile steeplechase format with a staggered start, we sailed almost boat for boat with a J-130 in 4-8 knots of wind and were just off the pace of a Melges 32 (our rating was 33, the J-130 was 30, and the Melges was 15). If the breeze would have been above 10 knots, I think we would have won that race so a lower rating is again probably applicable. Conceivably, I think it would always be fair racing if I was in the same class with the Melges 32 and the J-130 and I used a multi-rating (33 in light air, probably 0-5 in wind over 10-12 knots). But so far, we have not been able to make that happen.

#67 I'moutahere

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:22 PM



I suppose some people think it's fun to sail around a course a long way ahead of everybody else


It is kind of fun. You challenge your crew to perform better than they usually do. A crew knows when it performs well and when not. An engineer's perspective is to find the best solution for a problem. And if the problem is to sail as fast as possible in the current conditions, it leads to having a fast boat. And fast is fun. More fun than deluding yourself about handicap accuracy and bragging about "beating others". At the end of the day, whatever gets you out racing is cool. And a day on the ocean beats yard work all to hell. Especially when it wraps up with a beer with your mates.

Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet and telling everyone you won..


I dont know where you got that out of Bills post which you copied. As far as I read it it means quite the opposite what you are saying ....

just sayin
thor


So the rest of the thread doesn't exist for you.

#68 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:45 PM

Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet and telling everyone you won..

So the rest of the thread doesn't exist for you.


I'd argue, or agree with you, if I understood your point.
Is a 420 faster than an Optimist?
Do people race them against Optimists and brag about winning?

When I finish in front of other people I don't brag about winning, or about being a better sailor. I brag about having a faster boat. And then order another round.

#69 I'moutahere

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 08:01 PM

Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet and telling everyone you won..

So the rest of the thread doesn't exist for you.


I'd argue, or agree with you, if I understood your point.
Is a 420 faster than an Optimist?
Do people race them against Optimists and brag about winning?

When I finish in front of other people I don't brag about winning, or about being a better sailor. I brag about having a faster boat. And then order another round.


"Is a 420 faster than an Optimist?" ... are you serious?

The point is (and it should be obvious for people who aren't trying to avoid it) there are people who cannot win when racing against similar boats so go out and buy a larger, faster type just so they can win. Examples :-

building/buying a 100' canting keel boat to race against a fleet of much smaller boats.

Building/buying a large multihull to race against a fleet of monohulls

"Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet"

People do it. If you've got a 420 - race against 420s or similar boats. If you've got a multihull - race against other multihulls. and so on.....

#70 PIL007

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:24 PM

JS..I don't think you'll find too many people racing multis in mono fleets doing so just to win a plate. Most i've encountered do so because they live in an area of predominately monos but prefer multis for either the speed thrill or space on board. I also don't believe people like Bob Oatley or Neville build 100fts to win purely against smaller boats. They have enough money to build the top end boat and want the bragging rights against the best supermaxis, not against Sydney 38s. They also like getting back to bar early and enjoying the best bit, drinking with the boys, who doesn't. When i was the only multi racing in my fleet, i enjoyed being first over the line and passing at twice the speed, i won't lie but not for the trophy and i don't believe many people are that delusional. I know you have met some multi nutters John but i think that line of thought is a little out. Believe me, and I know it's hard for you, but we are not all bad, we like sailing but on a differant platform.
IMO.



#71 I'moutahere

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:46 PM

JS..I don't think you'll find too many people racing multis in mono fleets doing so just to win a plate. Most i've encountered do so because they live in an area of predominately monos but prefer multis for either the speed thrill or space on board. I also don't believe people like Bob Oatley or Neville build 100fts to win purely against smaller boats. They have enough money to build the top end boat and want the bragging rights against the best supermaxis, not against Sydney 38s. They also like getting back to bar early and enjoying the best bit, drinking with the boys, who doesn't. When i was the only multi racing in my fleet, i enjoyed being first over the line and passing at twice the speed, i won't lie but not for the trophy and i don't believe many people are that delusional. I know you have met some multi nutters John but i think that line of thought is a little out. Believe me, and I know it's hard for you, but we are not all bad, we like sailing but on a differant platform.
IMO.


Get the blinkers off and have a look around.

"They also like getting back to bar early and enjoying the best bit, drinking with the boys," except the boys haven't finished yet.

edit... You got to be kidding yourself if you think guys like Bob Oatley aren't spending millions of $$$$ just to get line honours.

#72 AClass USA 230

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:46 PM


Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet and telling everyone you won..

So the rest of the thread doesn't exist for you.


I'd argue, or agree with you, if I understood your point.
Is a 420 faster than an Optimist?
Do people race them against Optimists and brag about winning?

When I finish in front of other people I don't brag about winning, or about being a better sailor. I brag about having a faster boat. And then order another round.


"Is a 420 faster than an Optimist?" ... are you serious?

The point is (and it should be obvious for people who aren't trying to avoid it) there are people who cannot win when racing against similar boats so go out and buy a larger, faster type just so they can win. Examples :-

building/buying a 100' canting keel boat to race against a fleet of much smaller boats.

Building/buying a large multihull to race against a fleet of monohulls

"Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet"

People do it. If you've got a 420 - race against 420s or similar boats. If you've got a multihull - race against other multihulls. and so on.....


I like being ranked in the same category as Bob Oatley. Thanks JS!

#73 I'moutahere

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:50 PM



Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet and telling everyone you won..

So the rest of the thread doesn't exist for you.


I'd argue, or agree with you, if I understood your point.
Is a 420 faster than an Optimist?
Do people race them against Optimists and brag about winning?

When I finish in front of other people I don't brag about winning, or about being a better sailor. I brag about having a faster boat. And then order another round.


"Is a 420 faster than an Optimist?" ... are you serious?

The point is (and it should be obvious for people who aren't trying to avoid it) there are people who cannot win when racing against similar boats so go out and buy a larger, faster type just so they can win. Examples :-

building/buying a 100' canting keel boat to race against a fleet of much smaller boats.

Building/buying a large multihull to race against a fleet of monohulls

"Kinda like racing a 420 in an Optimist fleet"

People do it. If you've got a 420 - race against 420s or similar boats. If you've got a multihull - race against other multihulls. and so on.....


I like being ranked in the same category as Bob Oatley. Thanks JS!


If being "king of the kids" makes you happy - go for it.

#74 AClass USA 230

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:50 AM

"If being "king of the kids" makes you happy - go for it."

Compared to Oatley, my 24' Sprint just makes me a court jester!

#75 THOR

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:41 AM

usually bad with numbers, but I would bet that 90 % of all multis who race with Monos do it just because they are having fun, and definitely not to "steal" some leaners pickledish. I havent met ONE person who bought a multi to win races against monos.

But not everybody lives in areas with lots of multis ( or even sportboats ) or any kind of decent one design racing.
Racing with the leadsleds is the only game in town. Do we try to get other people to join our darkside, you bet.
Would we rather race against Multis all the time, no kidding.

But there is soomething to be said to race a multi together with the wife and mayb one newby who has never raced or never be on a multi against a fleet of well sailed monos with 6 guys on the rail and yelling and all that hoopla and still fly past them and sometimes even beat them on corrected time. :-)

thor

p.s.
we have two multis on the lake one Mcgregor36 and us (Corsair 28r and now F33)

#76 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 03:26 AM

Thor's Great Race Thread

Hmmm, lets see....you put up the wrong sail, had to lower the spinnaker and sail bald headed while we hoisted and unfruled the screacher, almost capsized the boat, and still took line honors by a bunch" story. Then you whine about two boats correcting out ahaed of you.

>( Now passing them aint enough. We race with 21 phrf and they have something
>in the 90's Thats 70 seconds a mile ? I never understand that
... but something like
>that anyhow. )


Then you go on to state that you feel good about correcting out in 3rd place????.

>If we would have left the spin in the bag and used the screacher we would have
>killed them, really bad...
>(3rd aint so bad and this will make sure they let us race with them next year...

>if we would have won by a huge margin we would have gotten trouble...lol )

Seems to me this is the exact kind of thinking and behavior that people in this thread are referring to, that gives the PHRF multihull folks a bad name with the monohull folks.



**Robert Thompson**


Corsair 28 R, 3 crew

a big Thanks is in order to Ian to have designed the almost perfect boat. The
Boat saved my sorry ass again this last weekend.

Last Race of the year, all the big guns are there and some folks have paid pros
on board ... I am not kidding !! Phrf must be something real important ..lol

I had green crew ..One guy never raced ( ever )but was on my boat once before, the
other raced before but his first time on the boat.
Its a long distance race, if you can call that on our smallish lake.

Wind was 8 to 11 and the usual silly Puffs, you guys around the coast have no
idea about.

I am racing the Sporty class with Vipers and Melges... ( some of them really
really good ...)

Downwind start with Spinnaker is always a treat ...
especially with green crew ...
But I have to say the guys did very well, it was the old fart in the back of
the bus who made all the mistakes.... Like hoisting the spinnaker when the wind
shifted 30 degrees 5 minutes later and the apparent wind moved so much forward
that whenever the boat started to plane, I needed to push the bow down...

after we run over our own lines, I said :
Regroup, get that Spinnaker down and use screacher...
Usually that is done to hoist screacher than take down the spi, but in this case
it was overload on the crew, so I said take it down, take ur time and than we
resume racing.... so much so good.

The screacher worked like GOLD we were actually catching some Melges again and
Life was good....

The next legs was a spinnaker less leg for the Melges and we could keep flying our
Screacher.. ... meaning we caught up, passed most of them and had a great
time....

( Now passing them aint enough. We race with 21 phrf and they have something in
the 90's Thats 70 seconds a mile ? I never understand that... but something like
that anyhow. )


Around the bottom of the lake mark and we had to fight one more of those pesky
Melges off at the mark rounding ( No Overlap NO ROOM ) and he was bitching that
he now had to sail around that HUGE MULTIHULL....
I told him no trouble I will be out of his way in just a second...

The last leg was again 7 to 12 not quite beam reach but not quite hard on the
wind either.... I LOVE this course as the boat just wants to eat miles .... we
were moving and the Melges was fast getting smaller and smaller .... We were
passing other fleets which started 30 minutes before us and people were yelling
and cheering on ...

than the mother of all puffs ..... 28 knots 30 degrees further back ...
I had the crew instructed to ease the sheets on my command .. when the float
went under i told them :
loose.... they release 1 inch ...
loose.... another 1 inch ....
LOOSE ... another two ...
The main was traveller all out and now the lines in my 12 to 1 mainsheet were
singing as they unwound themselves in a big hurry ...

LOOSE .. ALL THE WAY LOOSE ... LET GO ...
(I dont scream or raise my voice on the boat ..but this time it was necessary ... )
I thought if I ever wet my pants, this would be the moment ... ( not enough time ...)

The leeward float meanwhile completely under water the main hull out of the
water.... the ruddder was light .. very light .... no rudder.... darn what the
heck ...

here goes the rest of the screacher ( FINALLY it seemed like minutes passed by )
.... and the boat just made an umpf.... got the nose up and took off like a bat
with mildly flogging sails ....
slowly pulling in the sails and back in
and in no time to 16 to 18 knots of boatspeed again ...

the guys huddling together on the windward tramp and giving eachother high
fives....

I am thinking ..now would be the time to wet my pants ...
but to busy pulling in all that line from the mainsheet ...


the boat again saved my sorry ass....

Thanks Ian


... we got line honors ... for a one hour 38 minutes race we beat the Melges by
about 10 minutes .... 2 of them Phrefed over us at the end and we got third with
40 seconds on 2nd and 70 seconds on the first boat.... ..

If we would have left the spin in the bag and used the screacher we would have
killed them, really bad...
(3rd aint so bad and this will make sure they let us race with them next year... if we would have won by a huge margin we would have gotten trouble...lol )


It was a great Race

pretty sure I wont sell my 28R until I find a SUPER deal on something much
bigger ....I love this boat...

Thor



#77 I'moutahere

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:02 AM

usually bad with numbers, but I would bet that 90 % of all multis who race with Monos do it just because they are having fun, and definitely not to "steal" some leaners pickledish. I havent met ONE person who bought a multi to win races against monos.

But not everybody lives in areas with lots of multis ( or even sportboats ) or any kind of decent one design racing.
Racing with the leadsleds is the only game in town. Do we try to get other people to join our darkside, you bet.
Would we rather race against Multis all the time, no kidding.

But there is soomething to be said to race a multi together with the wife and mayb one newby who has never raced or never be on a multi against a fleet of well sailed monos with 6 guys on the rail and yelling and all that hoopla and still fly past them and sometimes even beat them on corrected time. :-)

thor

p.s.
we have two multis on the lake one Mcgregor36 and us (Corsair 28r and now F33)


From that post it is very obvious you are more interested in your boats ability to "..... still fly past them" than close racing in similar boats, and avoid being shown up for your real sailing ability.

#78 PIL007

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:49 AM

Thanks for that Thor.........here i am defending the community and well..........
I did say most of us JS.........I'll stop digging now..

#79 trenace

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:17 PM

Maybe the point of the story is that it was fun racing, not high-level racing, and it sounds like his crew had a fun time from being allowed to race.

Didn't see where he thought he should have been scored the winner, or even cares much what the handicap is, except that it seems he's glad he wasn't scored the winner because that likely would have kept him out next year.

The inhumanity! What a bad man!

(If anyone else's point is, obviously the scored results were pretty meaningless as to who raced best: of course.)

#80 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:10 PM

Maybe the point of the story is that it was fun racing, not high-level racing, and it sounds like his crew had a fun time from being allowed to race.


Seems to me that the point being made is that he a) sailed against some very well sailed boats, b)had inexperienced crew, c)made a several major mistakes, d) almost capsized the boat, yet still grabbed line honors by over 10 minutes.......and then he goes on to say that he is glad that he didn't correct out first, because then "they" would realize how far off his PHRF rating is against the keel boats, and therefore might not let him play.

Seems pretty disingenuous........and this is exactly the type of behavior that people in this thread seem to be saying is rare, and is harmful to the ability of the multis gain acceptance amongst the keel boat guys.

Didn't see where he thought he should have been scored the winner, or even cares much what the handicap is, except that it seems he's glad he wasn't scored the winner because that likely would have kept him out next year.


( Now passing them aint enough. We race with 21 phrf and they have something
in the 90's Thats 70 seconds a mile ? I never understand that... )



Sure sounds like PHRF whining to me.;)


**R. Thompson**

#81 trenace

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:18 PM


Maybe the point of the story is that it was fun racing, not high-level racing, and it sounds like his crew had a fun time from being allowed to race.


Seems to me that the point being made is that he a) sailed against some very well sailed boats, b)had inexperienced crew, c)made a several major mistakes, d) almost capsized the boat, yet still grabbed line honors by over 10 minutes.......and then he goes on to say that he is glad that he didn't correct out first, because then "they" would realize how far off his PHRF rating is against the keel boats, and therefore might not let him play.

Seems pretty disingenuous........and this is exactly the type of behavior that people in this thread seem to be saying is rare, and is harmful to the ability of the multis gain acceptance amongst the keel boat guys.


Was the point of his story really anything other than recounting his fun experience?

I didn't see where he was claiming he should have had a more favorable rating, or that the handicapped outcomes were an accurate measure of sailing ability, or anything like that.


Didn't see where he thought he should have been scored the winner, or even cares much what the handicap is, except that it seems he's glad he wasn't scored the winner because that likely would have kept him out next year.


( Now passing them aint enough. We race with 21 phrf and they have something
in the 90's Thats 70 seconds a mile ? I never understand that... )



Sure sounds like PHRF whining to me.;)


Sounds to me like a guy saying he doesn't understand the technicality of what the rating numbers mean and/or where they come from, and isn't much worried about it.

#82 jetboy

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:23 PM

JS..I don't think you'll find too many people racing multis in mono fleets doing so just to win a plate. Most i've encountered do so because they live in an area of predominately monos but prefer multis for either the speed thrill or space on board.
IMO.



FWIW, this would be my general opinion of what I'd like to do. I'm in Utah (where sailing is not exactly raging in popularity) and I've only ever seen one other trimaran on the water. Nice guy with a Cross 18. I'm in the process of building a scarab tri and I'd love to go join some races. It's a small boat for sure, and doesn't really "fit" in any of the racing groups that are available. Unfortunately there are very little options, just a few beach cat events, and I may not be permitted to go out with the keel boats. - For me, I'd love to go racing just to have some fun sailing. I would be happy to just accept a -200 rating and lose every race. I really don't care about a trophy or bragging rights. I'd just like to go have some fun.

I realize it's not often done, but I'm not opposed to the idea of actually physically handicapping the boat rather than time. IMO it's more fun to have everyone sailing pretty close together rather than running away from the field and calculating a time penalty. Why not agree to run a main sail only, or even a reduced area main sail if necessary to work in the same range of speeds as the fleet? My buddy and I used to race eachother - him in a Laser, me on a Hobie 14. I'd leave the jib behind and we were almost identical in speed in most conditions. It was often so close in lighter air that with both rudders down I'd slowly drop back and pulling one rudder was enough to pass him. Just throwing out some ideas.

#83 THOR

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:46 AM

mr bob is in love with me
and i wont return his calls ....

too bad


too bad that I called him out on his quest to kill all the hard work of the 24 class president, where all the owners would vote for some change while Bob ( who doesnt even have a Corsair24 ) trying to stop all progress in the class.. SInce than that person is stalking me ... again must be love or sumpin ..

Thor




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