Jump to content


Jousting


  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

#1 Cali4s20

Cali4s20

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 48 posts
  • Location:The OC bitch
  • Interests:Gaucho pride

Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:38 PM



http://bermudabrothe...g.blogspot.com/

#2 tikipete

tikipete

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,581 posts

Posted 11 March 2012 - 08:37 PM

Waiting for the jury to deliver their verdict.

#3 HobieAnarchy

HobieAnarchy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,805 posts
  • Location:Imported from Detroit

Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:04 AM

DSQ boat w/ red chute, Rules 16.1 and 14, guy hit is probably eligible for redress (injury).

Next?

#4 Lake Shark

Lake Shark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Location:midwest
  • Interests:boats, babes, and brews

Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:14 AM

DSQ boat w/ red chute, Rules 16.1 and 14, guy hit is probably eligible for redress (injury).

Next?


pretty sure the no spinnaker boat was in the 3 boat length circle making them ROW so Red spinnaker has to get flicked for 18.2

#5 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:29 AM


DSQ boat w/ red chute, Rules 16.1 and 14, guy hit is probably eligible for redress (injury).

Next?


pretty sure the no spinnaker boat was in the 3 boat length circle making them ROW so Red spinnaker has to get flicked for 18.2


I think the guy who got pinged is safe, the arguments should be between red and black

black was inside, but port tack (red STB), so question is was red or black inside circle when reed had to avoid black?

I guess there is also a possible on whether no kite should have gybed to sail 'to the mark' , she was not entitled to a tactical rounding here (wrt red kite)
R16.1 could be in play...
R14, red could argue that they where avoiding black and misjudged.

#6 HobieAnarchy

HobieAnarchy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,805 posts
  • Location:Imported from Detroit

Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:31 AM


DSQ boat w/ red chute, Rules 16.1 and 14, guy hit is probably eligible for redress (injury).

Next?


pretty sure the no spinnaker boat was in the 3 boat length circle making them ROW so Red spinnaker has to get flicked for 18.2

Rule 18 does not apply. Rule 18.1(c ).

The port tack boat that got it's skipper skewered is heading away from the mark. The mark you see in the film is the left hand mark of a gate, rounded to starboard. He apparently rounded, then tacked. Pretty ballsy move in traffic.

#7 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:54 AM



DSQ boat w/ red chute, Rules 16.1 and 14, guy hit is probably eligible for redress (injury).

Next?


pretty sure the no spinnaker boat was in the 3 boat length circle making them ROW so Red spinnaker has to get flicked for 18.2

Rule 18 does not apply. Rule 18.1(c ).

The port tack boat that got it's skipper skewered is heading away from the mark. The mark you see in the film is the left hand mark of a gate, rounded to starboard. He apparently rounded, then tacked. Pretty ballsy move in traffic.


wow

talk about how the orientation can mess up your thinking.
I'm so used to looking at sailx where the wind is always from the top, that I hadn't even considered which way the wind was coming from..

very ballsy move,

I guess this ends up between R10 and R16.1, but I think Black may still get dragged in here.

#8 unShirley

unShirley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 708 posts
  • Location:Ventucky
  • Interests:surfing and sailing

Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:16 AM

a whole new type of competition: full contact sailing. Screw the AC, this is the way to bring sailing to TV and the masses.

#9 Lake Shark

Lake Shark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 271 posts
  • Location:midwest
  • Interests:boats, babes, and brews

Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:54 AM



DSQ boat w/ red chute, Rules 16.1 and 14, guy hit is probably eligible for redress (injury).

Next?


pretty sure the no spinnaker boat was in the 3 boat length circle making them ROW so Red spinnaker has to get flicked for 18.2

Rule 18 does not apply. Rule 18.1(c ).

The port tack boat that got it's skipper skewered is heading away from the mark. The mark you see in the film is the left hand mark of a gate, rounded to starboard. He apparently rounded, then tacked. Pretty ballsy move in traffic.


oh that's whats going on, didn't realize no spin had already gone around the mark I thought he was coming in on a really hot angle.

#10 thetominator

thetominator

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:dallas
  • Interests:Cooking, cycling

Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:21 AM

a whole new type of competition: full contact sailing. Screw the AC, this is the way to bring sailing to TV and the masses.


Hmmm. I think our old mainsheet trimmer found a new home.

#11 Liquid

Liquid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,271 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR area

Posted 12 March 2012 - 05:05 PM

That is some amazing boat handling, other then spearing someone. No one went in the water = amazing!

#12 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 06:12 AM

Is it a coincidence or do we have a Clean impersonator with shockingly bad knowledge of the RRS in the comments section of Kirkland's blog?

#13 Autograph

Autograph

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:12 PM

Red kite broke R11 and R14, arguably exonerated by R64.1(d), IF she argues effectively a R19 against Black, who seemed to luff sharply forcing him to gybe sooner to avoid a R18. Ber 1042 (tacked onto port at mark) broke no RRS, only the fucktard rule. Tacked toward the already crowded cone of death, without a plan. Red kite could have gybe/dropped earlier, but was visability impaired until the last second, and busy with his own fight. Must have had 'quite a start'. Lesson? how about never approach the gate from within the zone, if it's crowded. And never tack around any gate mark, into a busy zone, unless you want to be hated.

#14 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:22 PM

Red kite broke R11 and R14, arguably exonerated by R64.1(d), IF she argues effectively a R19 against Black, who seemed to luff sharply forcing him to gybe sooner to avoid a R18. Ber 1042 (tacked onto port at mark) broke no RRS, only the fucktard rule. Tacked toward the already crowded cone of death, without a plan. Red kite could have gybe/dropped earlier, but was visability impaired until the last second, and busy with his own fight. Must have had 'quite a start'. Lesson? how about never approach the gate from within the zone, if it's crowded. And never tack around any gate mark, into a busy zone, unless you want to be hated.


red kite was on starboard, 1042 was on port.... no rule 10 here?

how does black claim R19 when 1042 is not an obstruction?
red kite only gets on port because black does not keep clear of here

#15 Autograph

Autograph

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:13 PM

Hi SloopJohnB

1042,No Kite, is on a different leg of the course, and has tacked, so no 18 considerations there.

No Kite, as Give Way boat that is failing to give way, becomes an obstruction that in a perfect world red kite would like to gybe behind, but can't because of black kite, red kite has to choose between hitting one of two boats. Unfortunately, in gybing, he gives No Kite ROW, hence R11. All the action takes place in the zone, hence 18 over 10, for the 2 DW boats.

So, here, I think Red Kite should have gybed behind 1042, flagged him, and forced Black Kite to alter, then use a 10 attack on No Kite (i.e., he forced me above my PC to avoid him), a 19 defence on for any after contact with Black Kite. 1042 was ROW over Black Kite, he chose to duck, he has to allow Red Kite room to miss 1042 on the same side. 19 has priority over 18, as it is not mentioned in 18.5 as a specific exoneration. Only on this course of action could Black Kite have been brought into the room. By choosing to hit No Kite instead, he looses that option, as it is too hard to prove a 19 defence (?) after you have bailed out early, and broken a different rule in the process.



A has ROW over B, B has ROW over C, C has ROW over A. As 2 bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time, somebody has to be in the wrong. At the point of contact it was Red Kite.

Why not?

#16 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,621 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:23 PM

Is it a coincidence or do we have a Clean impersonator with shockingly bad knowledge of the RRS in the comments section of Kirkland's blog?


Certainly ain't me!

Attached Files



#17 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:38 PM

Hi SloopJohnB

1042,No Kite, is on a different leg of the course, and has tacked, so no 18 considerations there.

No Kite, as Give Way boat that is failing to give way, becomes an obstruction that in a perfect world red kite would like to gybe behind, but can't because of black kite, red kite has to choose between hitting one of two boats. Unfortunately, in gybing, he gives No Kite ROW, hence R11. All the action takes place in the zone, hence 18 over 10, for the 2 DW boats.

So, here, I think Red Kite should have gybed behind 1042, flagged him, and forced Black Kite to alter, then use a 10 attack on No Kite, a 19 defence on for any after contact with Black Kite. 1042 was ROW over Black Kite, he chose to duck, he has to allow Red Kite room to miss 1042 on the same side. 19 has priority over 18, as it is not mentioned in 18.5 as a specific exoneration. Only on this course of action could Black Kite have been brought into the room. By choosing to hit No Kite instead, he looses that option, as it is too hard to prove a 19 defence (?) after you have bailed out early, and broken a different rule in the process.



A has ROW over B, B has ROW over C, C has ROW over A. As 2 bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time, somebody has to be in the wrong. At the point of contact it was Red Kite.

Why not?



sorry some clarification.

first a give way boat is NEVER an obstruction (see definitions)

next there is a huge difference here between what rules apply if red or black are in the zone or not, (which is not totally clear from the video)

if red is avoiding black under R14... then black has broken R10, 1042 has also possibly broken rule 10 since its not clear if she is properly keeping clear before red kite gybes.

R19 doesn't apply here at all, before Red kite gybes nokite is not an obstruction since no kite is keep clear boat, and black kite is never an obstruction to no-kite since black kite is keep clear boat.
(and R19 doesn't have priority over R18... both coexist in the zone, neither has priority, and both can be broken at the same time with neither boat getting exonerated)

finally at 3 seconds in, red is still on stb, and pointing directly at nokite, red continues into a gybe to avoid spearing her midships.... at this point nokite is definitely breaking R10, though I would say that she gets exonerated since Red is breaking R16.1 at the time.

#18 RobbieB

RobbieB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,482 posts
  • Location:Charleston, SC

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:04 PM

Black was inside overlap on Red. Red owed Black room at the Stbd round gate mark, (the overlap was clear when Rd jibed). No spin was port leeward. Red's main had jibed to Port when contact was made w/no spin skipper. Red Spin was not yet fully across. Those boats move so damn fast. I think Red's a gonner for 18.2 on Black assuming Black could not round clear. If Black did round clear then Red is still out for 16.1 on no spin and/or 11 or 12....Hell, all 3 together. Red got the old squeeze play. Sure no spin went the wrong direction tactically, but was well within their rights to do so.

#19 Haywire

Haywire

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 59 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:06 PM

Here's my view:

Black is inside overlapped boat on Red. The overlap has been ongoing for some time as Black is on the port layline to the mark (which must be passed to starboard). Red must give Black room to round the mark, includingroom for Black to gybe. To give room to Black, Red could have either gybedearlier, stayed on starboard and born off below the mark, or over-trimmed herkite to slow down and pass behind Black before gybing for the mark. Instead, Red gybed very close to Black Ė forcingBlack to bear away below the layline to avoid contact with Red. Red did not give Black room as required. Blackís bear away to avoid Red happenedwithin 3 lengths of the mark. Red shouldbe protested by Black and Red should receive a DSQ.

A second incidenttook place between Red and the boat sailing upwind on port tack (BER 1042). As the video starts, BER is keeping clear ofRed because no collision course exists. WhenRed is about 1.5 boatlenghts away from BER, Red bears off sharply and creates acollision course with BER. Although BER alterscourse immediately to try and keep clear, the boats are too close at that pointand Redís bowsprit hits BERís skipper. The collision takes place while Red is gybing. As a result Red should be protested byBER and RED should receive a DSQ.

IF Red hadgybed at or before the start of the video, she would probably have been able to pass infront of BER 1042 without fouling BER and then could have gybed outside Black and given BLACK enough room. Alternately, Red could have used her starboard tack rights against BERby bearing off at the mark before the start of the video. That would have givenBlack the room to gybe and round the mark while BER would have had enough time to keep clear of RED. The race order wouldnot have changed from what is was before the rounding. BER would still be in front of both Black andRED and Black (the inside overlapped boat at the mark) would have stayed infront of RED.



#20 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:09 PM

Black was inside overlap on Red. Red owed Black room at the Stbd round gate mark, (the overlap was clear when Rd jibed). No spin was port leeward. Red's main had jibed to Port when contact was made w/no spin skipper. Red Spin was not yet fully across. Those boats move so damn fast. I think Red's a gonner for 18.2 on Black assuming Black could not round clear. If Black did round clear then Red is still out for 16.1 on no spin and/or 11 or 12....Hell, all 3 together. Red got the old squeeze play. Sure no spin went the wrong direction tactically, but was well within their rights to do so.


I'm not as clear that reds avoiding black was after they entered the zone.

I agree that if either boat was in the zone, then this gets to be reds penalty, either R16.1 or R11.
If not I think this is R10 against black.

#21 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,753 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:13 PM

seems like a difficult situation for the rules...

red is clearly going to need to give mark room to black - it's not clear whether red is in the zone at the start of the video..., or not.

in any case, i think i preferred the old rule, where rule 18 began to apply when boats are "about" to round the mark - as they clearly are when the video begins - these are fast boats, and they are only seconds from the mark. also, if we can't be certain from this video whether red is in the zone, how is a protest committee to figure it out in situations without a video? it's usually he said - she said...

P is clearly keeping clear of red at the start of the video. so although P violates 10, she is exonerated because red breaks 16.2

i think red violates 18.2a, but i'm not sure what she could have done - she could have headed up a bit to cross behind P, but probably would have hit the other port tack boat.., and if she headed up, would she have been able to dive down in time to give black room..., assuming she avoided the other port tack boat?

maybe there is an out for red with 18.2e - if the overlap was established from astern

about the only thing i think red could do is slow down - a lot - right in the beginning...

#22 Autograph

Autograph

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:29 PM

Thanks for the knowledge JB.

So red had to go down sooner, let 1048 know there is NO LANE AVAILABLE, Black does his thing with Red following

So, whatever happens, from the start of the clip, Red is screwed. If you see two boats going to just miss each other, don't attempt to pass between them at high speed. simples.

#23 RobbieB

RobbieB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,482 posts
  • Location:Charleston, SC

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:35 PM

seems like a difficult situation for the rules...

red is clearly going to need to give mark room to black - it's not clear whether red is in the zone at the start of the video..., or not.

in any case, i think i preferred the old rule, where rule 18 began to apply when boats are "about" to round the mark - as they clearly are when the video begins - these are fast boats, and they are only seconds from the mark. also, if we can't be certain from this video whether red is in the zone, how is a protest committee to figure it out in situations without a video? it's usually he said - she said...

P is clearly keeping clear of red at the start of the video. so although P violates 10, she is exonerated because red breaks 16.2

i think red violates 18.2a, but i'm not sure what she could have done - she could have headed up a bit to cross behind P, but probably would have hit the other port tack boat.., and if she headed up, would she have been able to dive down in time to give black room..., assuming she avoided the other port tack boat?

maybe there is an out for red with 18.2e - if the overlap was established from astern

about the only thing i think red could do is slow down - a lot - right in the beginning...



18.2.e could be an option but red would have had to take out black to make that possibly apply. Given Red's position on Black after the jibe it would be difficult for Red to prove that Black did not have that overlap at the 3 bl point. Either way Red fouled no spin. His only hope is to prove Black had no room and he jibed to avoid them.

#24 RobbieB

RobbieB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,482 posts
  • Location:Charleston, SC

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:40 PM

More looks at the video the overlap looks really close between red and black. They both for sure had to avoid the Stbd upwind boat coming out of the rounding and it looks like black made a small course alteration to do so. Red should have just slowed down and dealt with black on the straight forward overlap situation.

#25 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:41 PM

seems like a difficult situation for the rules...

red is clearly going to need to give mark room to black - it's not clear whether red is in the zone at the start of the video..., or not.

in any case, i think i preferred the old rule, where rule 18 began to apply when boats are "about" to round the mark - as they clearly are when the video begins - these are fast boats, and they are only seconds from the mark. also, if we can't be certain from this video whether red is in the zone, how is a protest committee to figure it out in situations without a video? it's usually he said - she said...

P is clearly keeping clear of red at the start of the video. so although P violates 10, she is exonerated because red breaks 16.2

i think red violates 18.2a, but i'm not sure what she could have done - she could have headed up a bit to cross behind P, but probably would have hit the other port tack boat.., and if she headed up, would she have been able to dive down in time to give black room..., assuming she avoided the other port tack boat?

maybe there is an out for red with 18.2e - if the overlap was established from astern

about the only thing i think red could do is slow down - a lot - right in the beginning...



I don't think 18.2e helps red , because she had several outs earlier while she and black where overlapped.

I think red has 2 options, and possible the probelm was that she just failed to make her preferred option stick.

1. she has to gybe away earlier, keep clear of 1042 and then gybe back to the mark and follow black around
2. she has to come up and force black to gybe away before either boat enters the zone, then she can gybe back to the mark entering the zone with black clear astern


one issue is that black is not allowed to assume that she will have a right to room,; on the way in, if she forces red to gybe before red or black hits the zone, then black breaks R10 and does not get exonerated. specially if reds course would not have taken her into the zone (before gybing.)

#26 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:45 PM

More looks at the video the overlap looks really close between red and black. They both for sure had to avoid the Stbd upwind boat coming out of the rounding and it looks like black made a small course alteration to do so. Red should have just slowed down and dealt with black on the straight forward overlap situation.


no this was a huge overlap
Attached File  Untitled.jpg   15.82K   11 downloads
ok the transom lines are approximate, but there is no way either boat was clear ahead.
and I dont see red breaking this overlap anywhere(if they do manake to break it its pretty marginal and would be hard to say if it was before or after the edge of the zone. I think 18.2(d) would apply

#27 Presuming Ed

Presuming Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,041 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:48 PM

Jos used this in his RRS quiz of the 27th Jan.

Quiz here: http://rrsstudy.blog...2701-rolex.html
Result here: http://rrsstudy.blog...-challenge.html

#28 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:57 PM

Jos used this in his RRS quiz of the 27th Jan.

Quiz here: http://rrsstudy.blog...2701-rolex.html
Result here: http://rrsstudy.blog...-challenge.html


v cool,

interesting to see how different some of the facts where
I tend to agree that its hard to be clear about all the facts, and the most critical one... where was the edge of the zone.
I like Zaphods summary for the red bears away to avoid balck before the zone option.
not sure any of them do a good job with red bears away to give black room options :).

(not that I'd do any better of course)

#29 RobbieB

RobbieB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,482 posts
  • Location:Charleston, SC

Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:42 PM

Jos used this in his RRS quiz of the 27th Jan.

Quiz here: http://rrsstudy.blog...2701-rolex.html
Result here: http://rrsstudy.blog...-challenge.html



Awesome post. So 18 never came into play as black and red never came together and black rounded the mark clean. Red got nailed on 11 and 14 which I found interesting as I thought he did make a small attempt to avoid, but must not have.

#30 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:57 PM


Jos used this in his RRS quiz of the 27th Jan.

Quiz here: http://rrsstudy.blog...2701-rolex.html
Result here: http://rrsstudy.blog...-challenge.html


v cool,

interesting to see how different some of the facts where
I tend to agree that its hard to be clear about all the facts, and the most critical one... where was the edge of the zone.
I like Zaphods summary for the red bears away to avoid balck before the zone option.
not sure any of them do a good job with red bears away to give black room options :).

(not that I'd do any better of course)

I don't think they have to. Its clear that Red has to begin altering course outside of 3BL to avoid Black. That's RRS 10. From there on its a cascade.

#31 PAllen

PAllen

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 14 posts
  • Location:NorCal Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Rippin'

Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:01 PM

That's a horrible scenario. I know of a person who was in the same accident and it ended his sailing career. The rules really have nothing to do with this. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong you simply do not hit each other! I'm not thinking about the rules when I'm in a high speed collision course with poles and wires everywhere. I'm thinking, O.K. get out of this clean and don't kill your friends. Adventure is a key part of skiff racing and you can't have adventure without uncertainty and risk. The rules don't matter when personal injury is in play.

#32 Corny Shields

Corny Shields

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 637 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:24 PM


Is it a coincidence or do we have a Clean impersonator with shockingly bad knowledge of the RRS in the comments section of Kirkland's blog?


Certainly ain't me!


Even you aren't that stupid.

#33 cantp1

cantp1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 396 posts
  • Location:Montreal, QC
  • Interests:Sailing
    Skiing
    Squash

Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:33 PM


seems like a difficult situation for the rules...

red is clearly going to need to give mark room to black - it's not clear whether red is in the zone at the start of the video..., or not.

in any case, i think i preferred the old rule, where rule 18 began to apply when boats are "about" to round the mark - as they clearly are when the video begins - these are fast boats, and they are only seconds from the mark. also, if we can't be certain from this video whether red is in the zone, how is a protest committee to figure it out in situations without a video? it's usually he said - she said...

P is clearly keeping clear of red at the start of the video. so although P violates 10, she is exonerated because red breaks 16.2

i think red violates 18.2a, but i'm not sure what she could have done - she could have headed up a bit to cross behind P, but probably would have hit the other port tack boat.., and if she headed up, would she have been able to dive down in time to give black room..., assuming she avoided the other port tack boat?

maybe there is an out for red with 18.2e - if the overlap was established from astern

about the only thing i think red could do is slow down - a lot - right in the beginning...



I don't think 18.2e helps red , because she had several outs earlier while she and black where overlapped.

I think red has 2 options, and possible the probelm was that she just failed to make her preferred option stick.

1. she has to gybe away earlier, keep clear of 1042 and then gybe back to the mark and follow black around
2. she has to come up and force black to gybe away before either boat enters the zone, then she can gybe back to the mark entering the zone with black clear astern


one issue is that black is not allowed to assume that she will have a right to room,; on the way in, if she forces red to gybe before red or black hits the zone, then black breaks R10 and does not get exonerated. specially if reds course would not have taken her into the zone (before gybing.)


I think you're right regarding black (USA 817) forcing red (AUT 070) to gybe. They were way outside the zone when red gybed. However, given that it was 12 to 15 knots that day and they were closing at each other at around 20 knots, I'm sure it felt like they were at the zone!!! So whoever talked about the old rule "about to round" has a point.

I saw the whole incident in person and man did it happen quickly. No slow mo replays on the 49er course!

Thanks goodness that Jesse didn't get hurt at all. Oh and FYI red (AUT 070) did do 1 360 turn right then and there, but that may not have been enough. Might have been a better idea to retire, but try convincing a European to retire from a race!

#34 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:38 PM



Jos used this in his RRS quiz of the 27th Jan.

Quiz here: http://rrsstudy.blog...2701-rolex.html
Result here: http://rrsstudy.blog...-challenge.html


v cool,

interesting to see how different some of the facts where
I tend to agree that its hard to be clear about all the facts, and the most critical one... where was the edge of the zone.
I like Zaphods summary for the red bears away to avoid balck before the zone option.
not sure any of them do a good job with red bears away to give black room options :).

(not that I'd do any better of course)

I don't think they have to. Its clear that Red has to begin altering course outside of 3BL to avoid Black. That's RRS 10. From there on its a cascade.



I think there is plenty of disagreement about that :)
I would tend to agree that they where outside when red changed course, but I'm not totally convinced . I dont think there's enough information in the video to be absolutley sure.

#35 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:40 PM

I think you're right regarding black (USA 817) forcing red (AUT 070) to gybe. They were way outside the zone when red gybed. However, given that it was 12 to 15 knots that day and they were closing at each other at around 20 knots, I'm sure it felt like they were at the zone!!! So whoever talked about the old rule "about to round" has a point.

I saw the whole incident in person and man did it happen quickly. No slow mo replays on the 49er course!

Thanks goodness that Jesse didn't get hurt at all. Oh and FYI red (AUT 070) did do 1 360 turn right then and there, but that may not have been enough. Might have been a better idea to retire, but try convincing a European to retire from a race!


nice to have that from an eyewitness.... :)

clears things up a lot.

#36 Autograph

Autograph

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:45 PM

Just so as everyone is clear, Black Kite and No Kite are on Port Tack, Red was on Starboard Tack, until just before the contact. Seemed to be some confusion.

#37 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 06:09 PM

I think you're right regarding black (USA 817) forcing red (AUT 070) to gybe. They were way outside the zone when red gybed. However, given that it was 12 to 15 knots that day and they were closing at each other at around 20 knots, I'm sure it felt like they were at the zone!!! So whoever talked about the old rule "about to round" has a point.

I saw the whole incident in person and man did it happen quickly. No slow mo replays on the 49er course!

Thanks goodness that Jesse didn't get hurt at all. Oh and FYI red (AUT 070) did do 1 360 turn right then and there, but that may not have been enough. Might have been a better idea to retire, but try convincing a European to retire from a race!


Yeah 49er closing speeds can be quite high. REmember that The Zone can be extended by SIs and there has been some discussion for this WRT cats and Skiffs. Also remember thought that BLS. include the Pole. So downwind The Zone instead of being 15 meters is more like 20 meters.

#38 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:36 PM


I think you're right regarding black (USA 817) forcing red (AUT 070) to gybe. They were way outside the zone when red gybed. However, given that it was 12 to 15 knots that day and they were closing at each other at around 20 knots, I'm sure it felt like they were at the zone!!! So whoever talked about the old rule "about to round" has a point.

I saw the whole incident in person and man did it happen quickly. No slow mo replays on the 49er course!

Thanks goodness that Jesse didn't get hurt at all. Oh and FYI red (AUT 070) did do 1 360 turn right then and there, but that may not have been enough. Might have been a better idea to retire, but try convincing a European to retire from a race!


Yeah 49er closing speeds can be quite high. REmember that The Zone can be extended by SIs and there has been some discussion for this WRT cats and Skiffs. Also remember thought that BLS. include the Pole. So downwind The Zone instead of being 15 meters is more like 20 meters.


really I though the zone was only hull lengths?

#39 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:09 PM



I think you're right regarding black (USA 817) forcing red (AUT 070) to gybe. They were way outside the zone when red gybed. However, given that it was 12 to 15 knots that day and they were closing at each other at around 20 knots, I'm sure it felt like they were at the zone!!! So whoever talked about the old rule "about to round" has a point.

I saw the whole incident in person and man did it happen quickly. No slow mo replays on the 49er course!

Thanks goodness that Jesse didn't get hurt at all. Oh and FYI red (AUT 070) did do 1 360 turn right then and there, but that may not have been enough. Might have been a better idea to retire, but try convincing a European to retire from a race!


Yeah 49er closing speeds can be quite high. REmember that The Zone can be extended by SIs and there has been some discussion for this WRT cats and Skiffs. Also remember thought that BLS. include the Pole. So downwind The Zone instead of being 15 meters is more like 20 meters.


really I though the zone was only hull lengths?

How is the sprit not part of the hull?

#40 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:17 PM




I think you're right regarding black (USA 817) forcing red (AUT 070) to gybe. They were way outside the zone when red gybed. However, given that it was 12 to 15 knots that day and they were closing at each other at around 20 knots, I'm sure it felt like they were at the zone!!! So whoever talked about the old rule "about to round" has a point.

I saw the whole incident in person and man did it happen quickly. No slow mo replays on the 49er course!

Thanks goodness that Jesse didn't get hurt at all. Oh and FYI red (AUT 070) did do 1 360 turn right then and there, but that may not have been enough. Might have been a better idea to retire, but try convincing a European to retire from a race!


Yeah 49er closing speeds can be quite high. REmember that The Zone can be extended by SIs and there has been some discussion for this WRT cats and Skiffs. Also remember thought that BLS. include the Pole. So downwind The Zone instead of being 15 meters is more like 20 meters.


really I though the zone was only hull lengths?

How is the sprit not part of the hull?


I always consider the sprit to be a spar, not a part of the hull,

I guess if the sprit is a molded extension of the bow it is part of the hull, but is its a pole, especially an extendable pole I dont think it fits the definition of part of the hull
I could easily be wrong on this, but I had certainly never thuoght of the sprit as a part of the hull.

#41 hdglightning

hdglightning

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:24 PM

Video is never good, but regardless...BER was port, AUT was starboard. BER's position on the course created a P/S incident. USA's position on the course as well as the other stbd boat prevented both (USA and AUT) from going completely behind BER. AUT had no other option but to thread the needle, and failed.

People can bring up room at the mark between USA and AUT, but that does not actually come into play until after the collision. For example if BER was not there does AUT remain clear? We don't know because that situation did not occur.

At the beginning USA does bear off to sail astern of BER, which by default does require them to give enough room for AUT to do the same. USA in my mind does give that room.

AUT does hit the other boat's skipper but does so during a failed gybe to keep clear. Once again all evidence points back to the P/S between AUT and BER and the situation surrounding it. BER did not give the room given the existing situation for AUT to keep clear, which IMHO resulted in this. The collision is a consequence of this lack of room.

BER DQS
USA no protest
AUT protested but exonerated due to BER


Might be totally wrong of course. But end result is that BER does have responsibility in this situation. They put themselves there and created this problem. Right or wrong they were the cause of it.

#42 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:45 PM

Video is never good, but regardless...BER was port, AUT was starboard. BER's position on the course created a P/S incident. USA's position on the course as well as the other stbd boat prevented both (USA and AUT) from going completely behind BER. AUT had no other option but to thread the needle, and failed.

People can bring up room at the mark between USA and AUT, but that does not actually come into play until after the collision. For example if BER was not there does AUT remain clear? We don't know because that situation did not occur.

At the beginning USA does bear off to sail astern of BER, which by default does require them to give enough room for AUT to do the same. USA in my mind does give that room.

AUT does hit the other boat's skipper but does so during a failed gybe to keep clear. Once again all evidence points back to the P/S between AUT and BER and the situation surrounding it. BER did not give the room given the existing situation for AUT to keep clear, which IMHO resulted in this. The collision is a consequence of this lack of room.

BER DQS
USA no protest
AUT protested but exonerated due to BER


Might be totally wrong of course. But end result is that BER does have responsibility in this situation. They put themselves there and created this problem. Right or wrong they were the cause of it.



I would have to say i think you are totally wrong on this.

BER was keeping clear of both AUT and USA until AUT started changing course... and at that point I dont see any way fro them to avoid. BER may have broken R10 but only as a result of AUT changing course as right of way boat an not giving BER room to keep clear. This looks like a clar breach or R16.1 to me, with AUT(red's) only get out being that she was avoiding USA(black) who was a keep clear boat at the time.

R18 certainly CAN come into it, because if either USA or AUT entered the zone the AUT was obliged to give USA room, and do it in a way which did not break R16.1 with BER.
BER is under NO obligation to give AUT room to keep clear.... her obligation is to keep clear of AUT based on AUTs current actions at any time, which she was doing right up until AUT bore toward her

#43 ber1293

ber1293

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:18 PM

As the helm of Ber 1042, I had NOT ALREADY rounded the mark. So all those kooks who think i did the fucktard thing, know your facts- especially you autograph. I was coming in hot to the leeward mark. I avoided a starboard boat coming up wind, and was already in the circle when the collision occurred.

#44 RobbieB

RobbieB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,482 posts
  • Location:Charleston, SC

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:21 PM


Video is never good, but regardless...BER was port, AUT was starboard. BER's position on the course created a P/S incident. USA's position on the course as well as the other stbd boat prevented both (USA and AUT) from going completely behind BER. AUT had no other option but to thread the needle, and failed.

People can bring up room at the mark between USA and AUT, but that does not actually come into play until after the collision. For example if BER was not there does AUT remain clear? We don't know because that situation did not occur.

At the beginning USA does bear off to sail astern of BER, which by default does require them to give enough room for AUT to do the same. USA in my mind does give that room.

AUT does hit the other boat's skipper but does so during a failed gybe to keep clear. Once again all evidence points back to the P/S between AUT and BER and the situation surrounding it. BER did not give the room given the existing situation for AUT to keep clear, which IMHO resulted in this. The collision is a consequence of this lack of room.

BER DQS
USA no protest
AUT protested but exonerated due to BER


Might be totally wrong of course. But end result is that BER does have responsibility in this situation. They put themselves there and created this problem. Right or wrong they were the cause of it.



I would have to say i think you are totally wrong on this.

BER was keeping clear of both AUT and USA until AUT started changing course... and at that point I dont see any way fro them to avoid. BER may have broken R10 but only as a result of AUT changing course as right of way boat an not giving BER room to keep clear. This looks like a clar breach or R16.1 to me, with AUT(red's) only get out being that she was avoiding USA(black) who was a keep clear boat at the time.

R18 certainly CAN come into it, because if either USA or AUT entered the zone the AUT was obliged to give USA room, and do it in a way which did not break R16.1 with BER.
BER is under NO obligation to give AUT room to keep clear.... her obligation is to keep clear of AUT based on AUTs current actions at any time, which she was doing right up until AUT bore toward her


Watch it again. AUT jibed into a port leeward position and right into BER.
AUT WAS on Stbd, but had to jibe to give room to USA.

AUT is out all the way.

#45 ber1293

ber1293

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:22 PM

Further, if you watch the video carefully you you notice AUT alter there course down at me. I had anticipated his pole just missing me, but as you saw, his adjustment nailed me ha!

#46 Autograph

Autograph

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:24 PM

Sorry about that, changes everything. Ouch. sorry man, glad you got out of that head injury free.

#47 ber1293

ber1293

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:26 PM

Yea no worries. Just want to clear it all up for everyone.

#48 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:21 PM



Video is never good, but regardless...BER was port, AUT was starboard. BER's position on the course created a P/S incident. USA's position on the course as well as the other stbd boat prevented both (USA and AUT) from going completely behind BER. AUT had no other option but to thread the needle, and failed.

People can bring up room at the mark between USA and AUT, but that does not actually come into play until after the collision. For example if BER was not there does AUT remain clear? We don't know because that situation did not occur.

At the beginning USA does bear off to sail astern of BER, which by default does require them to give enough room for AUT to do the same. USA in my mind does give that room.

AUT does hit the other boat's skipper but does so during a failed gybe to keep clear. Once again all evidence points back to the P/S between AUT and BER and the situation surrounding it. BER did not give the room given the existing situation for AUT to keep clear, which IMHO resulted in this. The collision is a consequence of this lack of room.

BER DQS
USA no protest
AUT protested but exonerated due to BER


Might be totally wrong of course. But end result is that BER does have responsibility in this situation. They put themselves there and created this problem. Right or wrong they were the cause of it.



I would have to say i think you are totally wrong on this.

BER was keeping clear of both AUT and USA until AUT started changing course... and at that point I dont see any way fro them to avoid. BER may have broken R10 but only as a result of AUT changing course as right of way boat an not giving BER room to keep clear. This looks like a clar breach or R16.1 to me, with AUT(red's) only get out being that she was avoiding USA(black) who was a keep clear boat at the time.

R18 certainly CAN come into it, because if either USA or AUT entered the zone the AUT was obliged to give USA room, and do it in a way which did not break R16.1 with BER.
BER is under NO obligation to give AUT room to keep clear.... her obligation is to keep clear of AUT based on AUTs current actions at any time, which she was doing right up until AUT bore toward her


Watch it again. AUT jibed into a port leeward position and right into BER.
AUT WAS on Stbd, but had to jibe to give room to USA.

AUT is out all the way.

I have said several times that depending on whether AUT /UAS where in the circle or not there are two very different outcomes.

#49 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,620 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:15 AM

A lesson to be learned here might be you have to keep a good look-out. Red must have been so focused on Black, that he didn't know that Port was there and gybed right into him. Perhaps his chute blocked his view somewhat. Doesn't matter.

Head on a swivel in a crowd. Always.

#50 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,002 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:59 AM

Further, if you watch the video carefully you you notice AUT alter there course down at me. I had anticipated his pole just missing me, but as you saw, his adjustment nailed me ha!

Might've gone for any earlier takedown in that situation. Rewatching, looks like Ber heads up a bit much to avoid stb. upwind yacht, thus closing the gap with Aut and trying to create enough room to round competitively without letting 2 or more boats inside. 20/20 hindsight, I would've steered closer and rounded wider. As mentioned, early takedown helps with visuals and slows you down when caution is the better part of valor, Blk kite wisely takedown to gain opportunity for best rounding of the3 yachts.

#51 Brass

Brass

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,622 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:26 AM

Yes, video can be difficult, especially from a moving overhead platform and made worse by zooming in or out.

But it is possible to do a little 'mathematactics' to work out whether or not Red and Black were in the zone. Looking at the video, first 7 seconds, which I will assume are in real time. I will also assume that the SI have not changed the zone to 4 hull lengths, and it remains 3 hull lengths.

Application of Rule 18 - Reached or not reached the zone.

@06 the yellow tet comes into shot, with the white starboard tacker coming away from the mark visible. Looking at this boat and scaling her hull length (yes, guys, zone is defined on hull length, and a bowsprit is a spar and a spar is not a hull), we can measure 3xhull lengths between her stern and the mark: that is, @06, Starboard's stern is on the edge of the zone.

@06, using the same scaling, the bow of Red is 2xhull lengths from the mark, and Black is only just on the 3 hull lenghts zone.

Moving backwards, between @05 and @06, Red is downspeed gybing/colliding with White: say she is doing 5kt, so she wil have travelled half a hull length.

Moving backwards again, between @04 and @05, say Red is still only doing 5kt, so another half hull length

@4 Red is just over, just at, or just before the zone.

Any time before @4, Red has not reached the zone and Black is behind her: rule 18 does not apply between Red and Black.

Between @03 and @04, Red is beginning to bear away and will be going downspeed from the 15 kts she will have been doing while fully arced up, so say 10 kts, 1 hull length per second

@3 Red is a further hull length away from the zone: 4xhull lengths from the mark.

Bewteen @3 and @2, Red is fully arced up say 15 kts, 1.5 hull lenghts per second

@2 Red is 5.5 hull lengths away from the mark

@1 Red is 7 hull lengths away from the mark.

Looking at White (the port tacker), again using Starboard as a reference.

Moving Starboard back 4 seconds from @6, at 5 kts, she will be 2xhull lengths back, hence stern 1xhull length from the mark and bow 2xhull lengths from the mark.

@2 in the video White appears 1xhull length away from Starboard's bow, that is 2+1 hull length from the mark, so White is in the zone @2.

@2, White has reached the zone and is overlapped inside Red and Black, rule 18 applies and White is entitled to mark-room, and will remain entitled to mark-room even if the inside/outside overlap changes (rule 18.2(B)).

The mark-room White is entitled to is room to sail firstly to the mark, then, when at the mark, to sail her proper course.

Analysis Red and Black

@0 Red on starboard, Black on port, converging courses, really cannot say from the video whether either was above or below the lay on their respective tacks (although I suspect that Red was a little hot/high).

@1 Black bears away to keep clear of Red.

@2 White is keeping clear of Red, passing well ahead, and White and Black aren't an issue.

@3 Red begins to bear away. At this time there is a hull length between Red and Black: Black is keeping clear. Red could be bearing away for any number of reasons: get down to or below the layline, pass astern of the Starboard tacker coming away from the mark, get into position so that she will be givnig Black mark-room when she reaches the zone: we have no way of knowing or inferring Red's intentions here, except to say that there was plenty of space between her and Black and the reason wasn't to avoid contact with Black.

@3+delta, Black comes up slightly, but still keeps clear of Red.

While Red is on starboard tack, she is not required to give way to White, so White is not an obstruction to Red and rule 19 does not apply between Red and Black.

Analysis Red and White

White was keeping clear of Red until Red began and continued to bear away. If it was thought that White failed to keep clear of Red while Red was on starboard, she was compelled to do so by Red changing course and not giving White room to keep clear in breach of rule 16.1 (not 16.2, which only applies to the give-way boat steering to pass astern), and White should be exonerated for any breach of rule 10, and Red penalised for breaking rule 16.1.

@4-delta White begins to bear away, presumably onto her course _to_ the mark. At this stage, White is the good old give way inside boat with mark-room entitlements, entitled to make a seamanlike, but not a tactical rounding. At the point of White bearing away, I don't think she is taking any more room than she is entitled to: she is shaping a course directly to the mark.

@4 Red continues to bear away, then gybes, then contacts White. At the point of contact Red is port tack, windward and White is port tack leeward. Rule 11 applies, and Red breaks it. Rule 18.2(B) also applies, requiring Red to give White mark-room and Red also breaks that rule.

The instant Red gybed, White became the inside right of way boat, gaining an entitlement to room to make a seamanlike rounding and an obligation under rule 18.4 to not sail past her gybe layline. We'll never know because this was the point that she got carted over mid-off by Red.

Black's Opinion

Maybe Black didn't agree with my analysis, because Black did a one turn around the mark.

#52 RobG

RobG

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 727 posts
  • Location:Brisbane, Australia

Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:48 AM

I think red has 2 options, and possible the probelm was that she just failed to make her preferred option stick.

1. she has to gybe away earlier, keep clear of 1042 and then gybe back to the mark and follow black around
2. she has to come up and force black to gybe away before either boat enters the zone, then she can gybe back to the mark entering the zone with black clear astern


Exactly. At the end of the day, black got the advantage they were after. Hopefully on-water judges gave red a 360į (gotta do something, there was a collision) and left it at that. Not sure they could sort it that quickly though.

#53 sailor1111

sailor1111

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts

Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:47 PM

Knowing it from the first hand all the mess happened just because red Spinnaker didn't see the Bermuda guys at all. These kites are huge and are covering quite a lot in front of you. They were avoiding black one as the outside boat and should avoid BER also as an outside boat but just didn't see them at all. They did their 360 turn and in this wind it cost them so much that they were dead last after that. BER finished far in front.
They talked it out later, said that they were sorry and are still friends.

#54 F-18 5150

F-18 5150

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,696 posts
  • Interests:sailing

Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:33 AM

bump to get past occupy

#55 simbert

simbert

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 600 posts

Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:47 PM

Classic dump ass move on AUT, although he got all the right to jam in there, he was on STB, but did he win that race?

#56 F-18 5150

F-18 5150

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,696 posts
  • Interests:sailing

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:25 PM

bump




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users