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VOR Leg 5


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#1301 bgulari

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:56 PM

P=<30' isn't much area for a 70'er, could be a 700 miles, fluky winds along brazil?
Bummed, G4 was my pick to win, suspect that of the leaders they had the smallest budget which has probably limited contingencies in light of sponsor's condition.



bet they had the largest budget

#1302 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:01 PM


I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


So you're saying that five boats breaking in this leg should be normal and expected, just because the custom raceboats you've sailed on have broken pieces?

How about if I ask you this way: Would you expect to retire in five out of six consecutive local races on 'custom raceboats' because of hull or mast failure?

How do you address that fact that the combined number of leg retirements in this race has already exceeded the prior two, and we're barely 2/3 of the way through the race?

The guys on Groupama are experts...EXPERTS...at nursing a fast boat around the world. They did just that, and their mast just broke in 20 knots of breeze. You think they're just not as good as you are at backing off?

Gimme a fucking break.

Anyone got a tally of the major breakages in this event yet?

#1303 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:03 PM

Oh, and I thought I should add this: One of the things that's so amazing about the way Open 60 skippers treat their boats is that the beat the living crap out of them. They leave their big sails on way too long and let the pilot deal with it, they fall asleep with too much sail up, they do all sorts of shit they shouldn't, and still they get half the starters in the Vendee all the way around the world...

#1304 clamslapper

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:06 PM

Two options are being studied:

1/ To continue the race under jury rig towards Itajai, the finish venue, some 650 nautical miles ahead.
2/ To make for Punta del Este, wait for the new mast (stored in Rotterdam), rig it and then head back into the race from the point where they suspended racing (at 1500 UTC) to make for Itajai.




20. SUSPENSION WHILE RACING
20.1 A Boat may suspend Racing under the following conditions:
(a) The circumstances shall be reported to the duty officers as soon as possible
and shall be recorded in the Boats log
( A Boat that suspends racing after starting a Leg:
(i) May use a propulsion engine, haul out or make fast until she resumes
Racing. This alters RRS 45
(ii) May, before resuming Racing remove garbage, use any equipment or
receive help to effect repairs but shall not take on food or other provisions
without the prior permission of the RC. This alters RRS 41 and 47.1
(iii) Shall, before resuming Racing, return to the position where she
suspended Racing and inform the duty officers that she has resumed
Racing.
(iv) Shall, when suspending during the first 12 hour of a Leg suspend for a
minimum of 2 hours. Any other suspension shall be for a minimum of 12
hours
(v) A Boat may not suspend Racing on Leg 9.
© A Boat may not suspend Racing within an 100 nautical mile radius of a finish
line
Posted Image

I don't get it. If a jury rig is a possibility, why suspend?




I guess if you think the benefits outweigh the time costs. Agree with you that it seems needless given the 100% certainty of getting third place, and the fact that they will not be on a beat to Itajai, which would of course make sailing under jury-rig very difficult.

#1305 BryanW

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:09 PM

Wallowing around in 2.8 m seas with no rig probably necessitated starting the engine, thus the suspension.

#1306 trimfast

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:14 PM

Can not for the life of me reconcile what these boats and rigs have been through, to then break in relatively benign conditions and not in the heart of the storms. Ok puma made some sense, if the builder really got the wrong metal, fatigue happens. But carbo link has held up pretty well. Just more cycles?


As a designer how often do you have to come to terms with it being as light as possible verus over built for strength? With the full understanding that you want it as light as possible but as strong as possible then becomes gambling of pushing limits which is what I believe we are seeing.

So in the grand scheme of things, how close are designers pushing the edges as if they are race car builders such as from a nissan engineer "You’ve got to gamble, to take a risk or we won’t be able to innovate and learn. Innovation hurts sometimes. To use a motorsport analogy; “If you are not going off once in a while, you are not trying hard enough”.

In the last edition how many boats lost their masts compared to 3 here and one other rigging failure with sanyas D2? Were last edition masts overbuilt in comparison to making them ligher albeit supposively stronger for this edition?

#1307 s2 alter ego

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:14 PM

(ii) May, before resuming Racing remove garbage, use any equipment or
receive help to effect repairs but shall not take on food or other provisions
without the prior permission of the RC. This alters RRS 41 and 47.1

If the crew eat at some nice restaurant while suspended racing, does it mean they take on food or not ?
How is that to be interpreted ?
Or does the Camper folks really have to eat the food they already had on bord at the start of the leg all the way to the finish if they don't get a prior permisson of the RC ?
Or does it only mean they can't bring more freeze dried on board without permission, but can go eat outside the boat while suspended ?

Depending on that and if they got a permission or not, it might make sense to suspend while making jury rig for G4 too.

#1308 armchairair

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:15 PM

Wallowing around in 2.8 m seas with no rig probably necessitated starting the engine, thus the suspension.



Hey! @ BryanW, I was in the process of saying that as MY second comment here on SA too! We "newbies" are on the same track. Posted Image

#1309 chicken eater

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:16 PM

I don't get it. If a jury rig is a possibility, why suspend?


I wonder if they needed to use the engine to maneuver the boat to recover parts of the rig and sails?

#1310 MSafiri

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:27 PM

Is there anything left to follow? Hard to believe.....i really hoped they will win this leg......

#1311 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:28 PM

Last time the keels fell off before the sticks wore out. B) And they fixed the keel issue. Sure, the rigs are more complex, but maybe they just need to spec higher safety margins in the design process for both hulls and rigs.

#1312 Terrorvision

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:35 PM

I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


For shizzle.

#1313 Terrorvision

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:37 PM


I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


Why do people keep quoting the MOD70 in any discussion of pushing hard, setting limits and being strong? As great as the platform is, it is totally unproven.

#1314 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:37 PM

Last time the keels fell off before the sticks wore out. B) And they fixed the keel issue. Sure, the rigs are more complex, but maybe they just need to spec higher safety margins in the design process for both hulls and rigs.


IIRC in last Vendée first masts broke in Biscay gulf storm, after that more masts fall and then keels began to fall apart. Some to bottom of the sea.
There were a couple of deck and hull issues, but they were quite well explained exceptions.
After another keel fall in last Fastnet it seems the keel part have been "solved". Now it's hull's turn. Something that already happened with a couple of class 50 multis in last Route du Rhum if my memory has not turn creative.

#1315 dogwatch

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:39 PM


I don't get it. If a jury rig is a possibility, why suspend?


I wonder if they needed to use the engine to maneuver the boat to recover parts of the rig and sails?


Yes I guess needing the engine for something like that is the likeliest explanation.

#1316 Terrorvision

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:40 PM




I don't get it. If a jury rig is a possibility, why suspend?


I wonder if they needed to use the engine to maneuver the boat to recover parts of the rig and sails?


All that shit in the water, the last thing you want to do is have a prop spinning.

#1317 Terrorvision

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:44 PM

Leg 5 summed up in one picture......so far.

Attached Files



#1318 dogwatch

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:46 PM

All that shit in the water, the last thing you want to do is have a prop spinning.


OK, why do you think they suspended?

#1319 Terrorvision

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:52 PM


All that shit in the water, the last thing you want to do is have a prop spinning.


OK, why do you think they suspended?


It is a good question- I think it could have been a combination of factors based on the knowledge that that they have a very comfortable space behind them with which to work and suspending racing gives them all the options they need while they decide on the best way forward. I am sure that once they had cleared everything from the water they did spark up the donkey but I don't think that that is why they suspended.
Then again, I am pretty much 50% of the way round the world with no other form of connection to the race than the 40 pages that precede this post so I will happily put up my hand and say, 'What the fuck do I know about anything?'

#1320 CKDexterHaven

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

Telefonica's going to win this one, after a half-day pit stop, and Puma will be fresh out of excuses. Unfuckingbelievable.

#1321 Tyler Durden

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:56 PM

Attached File  farr.JPG   56.72K   63 downloads

#1322 Ryley

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:57 PM

Two options are being studied:

1/ To continue the race under jury rig towards Itajai, the finish venue, some 650 nautical miles ahead.
2/ To make for Punta del Este, wait for the new mast (stored in Rotterdam), rig it and then head back into the race from the point where they suspended racing (at 1500 UTC) to make for Itajai.




20. SUSPENSION WHILE RACING
20.1 A Boat may suspend Racing under the following conditions:
(a) The circumstances shall be reported to the duty officers as soon as possible
and shall be recorded in the Boats log
( A Boat that suspends racing after starting a Leg:
(i) May use a propulsion engine, haul out or make fast until she resumes
Racing. This alters RRS 45
(ii) May, before resuming Racing remove garbage, use any equipment or
receive help to effect repairs but shall not take on food or other provisions
without the prior permission of the RC. This alters RRS 41 and 47.1
(iii) Shall, before resuming Racing, return to the position where she
suspended Racing and inform the duty officers that she has resumed
Racing.
(iv) Shall, when suspending during the first 12 hour of a Leg suspend for a
minimum of 2 hours. Any other suspension shall be for a minimum of 12
hours
(v) A Boat may not suspend Racing on Leg 9.
© A Boat may not suspend Racing within an 100 nautical mile radius of a finish
line
Posted Image

I don't get it. If a jury rig is a possibility, why suspend?

Especially if you HAVE to suspend for 12 hours at this point... although there's no risk right now to suspending, right? Camper's a hell of a lot more than 12 hours away, even if they left right now. a 12 hour delay at sea while you try to rig something is probably worth getting the 3rd podium spot. Assuming Tele and Puma don't suddenly blow up too.

#1323 rico

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:57 PM


All that shit in the water, the last thing you want to do is have a prop spinning.


OK, why do you think they suspended?


Why not? Nothing to lose. Chill out, take the time necessary to get reorganized, take the pressure off, set up a good fix with the enngine keeping bow in the wind, maybe even rest some people after that, etc...

#1324 STYACHT

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:04 PM



I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


So you're saying that five boats breaking in this leg should be normal and expected, just because the custom raceboats you've sailed on have broken pieces?

How about if I ask you this way: Would you expect to retire in five out of six consecutive local races on 'custom raceboats' because of hull or mast failure?

How do you address that fact that the combined number of leg retirements in this race has already exceeded the prior two, and we're barely 2/3 of the way through the race?

The guys on Groupama are experts...EXPERTS...at nursing a fast boat around the world. They did just that, and their mast just broke in 20 knots of breeze. You think they're just not as good as you are at backing off?

Gimme a fucking break.

Anyone got a tally of the major breakages in this event yet?

Except for your comment about Groupama being something more expert than the other teams, I have to agree with this post. It is striking. I am wishing I had not posted "this is what sorted looks like". Geez, what was I thinking!? This is way too many rigs down, that is for sure. Way too many retirements and way too few boats in the first place. And in all honesty, I have to wonder how the race sells itself with this record, going forward.

#1325 Wacka Elvis

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:08 PM

$20 says Knut resigns within 48hrs...

#1326 CKDexterHaven

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:11 PM

Some stops on the 2011-2012 Volvo Ocean Race:

Tritan da Cunha
Fort Dolphine, Madagascar

Tauranga, NZ

Puerto Montt, Chile

Caleta de Martial, Chile

Punta del Este, Uruguay (potentially)






#1327 STYACHT

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:11 PM

To the horn

1 Groupama
2 Camper
3 Telefonica
4 Puma
5 ADOR
6 Sanya

To the finish

1 Puma
2 Telefonica
3 Groupama
4 ADOR
5 Camper
6 Sanya

And as there seems to be a wish to add some spice with "rig failure", "ret" or "this one goes to 11", the closest race will be for spots 3-4 and 4-5 with just hours separating the finishers.


Truth be told, I take no pride in this finish prediction, but I have only one place wrong it seems. IF, (huge if) things go according to "plan".

#1328 wolverine

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:13 PM


All that shit in the water, the last thing you want to do is have a prop spinning.


OK, why do you think they suspended?


They suspended at that time because the wind is on the nose...it is predicted to become a southerly breeze in about 12 hours. Under jury rig they are going to have trouble going uphill so this is the best time for them to regroup, maybe even work on adding some length to their now stubby mast. Once the wind shifts they will be able to resume racing and continue heading N, NNW and either pull in or continue and meet up with their shore team. I would think the team did not make this decision in haste but rather looked at their options, logistics on the spare rig, weather, etc.

#1329 Panoramix

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:14 PM

20 knots of wind against the wind isn't it when there is maximum forces in the rig as it is at max power closest to the wing with the full main up?

They were probably pushing very hard with Puma on their heels, did they change rig in New Zealand?

If Puma stays ahead, they will be 25 points behind Telefonica.

#1330 brutus

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:16 PM


All that shit in the water, the last thing you want to do is have a prop spinning.


OK, why do you think they suspended?


In 24 hours the southernly will have filled in. Until then the breeze in on the nose or close to it.
Why not suspend racing, head to port ( Not very far away), do the jury rigging at the dock and then head back out. It has got to be easier cutting the mast away and rigging at the dock and if the breeze is in their face, they may not make a whole lot of progress untill the southernly fill in.
Not to mention have a little help at the dock from the shore team.

#1331 STYACHT

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:25 PM

$20 says Knut resigns within 48hrs...

I am taking that bet.

#1332 wolverine

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:31 PM


Update
Team Sanya retired from Leg 5 and returned to New Zealand after sustaining damage. The yacht is being shipped to Savannah for repairs and then will sailed to Miami, where they will rejoin the race - read more.

CAMPER with Emirates Team NZ suspended racing at 0130UTC on 3 April and has arrived in Puerto Montt on the west coast of Chile to repair bow damage suffered in the Southern Ocean. The team intends to finish the leg in Itajaí - read more.

Team Telefónica resumed racing at 2133 UTC on March 31 after completing repairs - read more.

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing retired from Leg 5 at 1000 UTC 4 April. Azzam will be loaded onto a ship at the Chilean port of Puerto Montt and begin a nine day journey to Itajaí, with a likely departure date of Saturday 7 April 2012. - read more.

Groupama sailing team suspended racing from leg 5 on 4 April after the mast broke just above the first spreader. The crew is all safe and is 60 nautical miles south of Punte del Este, more information will be released as it becomes available.

Puma sailing team powered by Berg is still racing!!!!!! Here at race headquarters we have our fingers crossed that they will make it to the finish so that at least one boat will finish this grueling leg without having to suspend racing for repairs or drop out completely. We have hired several local prostitutes for the unmarried crew members onboard Puma as a special thank-you for giving it their all and pushing hard...but not too hard. They can push hard after they finish...the leg that is.










#1333 Wacka Elvis

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:40 PM


$20 says Knut resigns within 48hrs...

I am taking that bet.

Done!

#1334 Steve Clark

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:43 PM

Suspend racing because it makes no difference.
IF you need to spin the prop, you may minimize damage to the rest of the assets.
G4 is assured of 3rd place no matter if they drift to the finish line under bare poles or motor into Punta del Este, Haul the boat out of the water and clean the bottom.
4h place is on the other side of the continent cutting big pieces out of their boat. They ave something like 2 weeks. No sweat.
Probably motoring into Punta del Este, working on the boat while waiting for the rig to arrive and then doing a careful job assembling it before heading for the finish line is the easiest option, and least likely to screw up. Yeah the container of spares is in Itajai, but hot showers and lattes can be had tomorrow morning.

I think Camper is a bit more desperate. They have to rebuild a pretty big chunk of the boat, sail pretty much upwind to Cape Horn, get around late i the season and them make it though the mine field of the Argentine coast in two weeks.
I think Dalton have flown over to access how possible that program is and make the really tough decision for the boys.

I am of two minds on this pit stop rule. At once it seems sensible to be able to pull over and fix the boats without jeopardizing your entire regatta. On the other hand, it seems that he 24 hour penalty really isn't strict enough, or shall I say that durability and reliability are discounted too much. This encourages designers and teams to take higher risks to gain a small advantage. It's all about probability, but I would prefer to see the boats being more reliable and almost as fast than this fast and this fragile. You would feel that the breed was absolutely being improved instead of being ruined.
SHC

#1335 dlangpap

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:45 PM

GPMA is the moral winner of this leg which should have finished way before.

#1336 valor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:01 PM

just hit Volvo site....here is the lead line to the article.

Groupama were tonight limping towards a haven in Uruguay after being forced to suspend racing from the fifth leg after the mast broke with a second successive victory agonisingly close.


#1337 Indio

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:01 PM

GPMA is the moral winner of this leg which should have finished way before.


How many points does the moral winner get?!?

#1338 averagehack

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

It is an easy choice to suspend if you are getting blown backwards as well as pushed by the current. If you decide to set up a jury rig without going to port then once it is set up you can motor to your new starting point and restart.

Does this mean that if you find yourself getting pushed the wrong way as you near the finish all you have to do is "suspend". Kind of like setting your anchor and waiting for wind or tide to change.

#1339 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:05 PM

What the hell is a 'moral winner'?

#1340 Bmajor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:08 PM

Read this quote from the VOR news and tell me if the last sentence has any relevance to the rest of the paragraph. Another example of the VOR news staff being fucked up:
"CAMPER suspended racing at 0130 GMT on Tuesday, but fully intends to complete Leg 5, while Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing, who retired from Leg 5 at 1000 GMT today, will ship their boat to Itajaí.The crew are all safe, with the boat around 60 nautical miles south of Punta del Este."

Are they even watching the same race as we are?



#1341 mr_ryano

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:11 PM



I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


So you're saying that five boats breaking in this leg should be normal and expected, just because the custom raceboats you've sailed on have broken pieces?

How about if I ask you this way: Would you expect to retire in five out of six consecutive local races on 'custom raceboats' because of hull or mast failure?

How do you address that fact that the combined number of leg retirements in this race has already exceeded the prior two, and we're barely 2/3 of the way through the race?

The guys on Groupama are experts...EXPERTS...at nursing a fast boat around the world. They did just that, and their mast just broke in 20 knots of breeze. You think they're just not as good as you are at backing off?




Gimme a fucking break.

Anyone got a tally of the major breakages in this event yet?


You know why this race is so cool, it's because it's HARD. Always has been, always will. Everyone willingly signed up to do it on boats that are designed to push as hard as possible on the limits of design and human endurance. They keep coming back because it's HARD. 500 years after man first sailed around Cape Horn, we still want to do it because it's HARD

ADOR broke when the guys were pushing the boat over 40kts. Do you really think Farr, or R/P, or Juan design, or anyone else have the design tools to accurately calculate the dynamic loads on a VO 70 falling off a monster wave at 40 kts? Shit happens. I'm sure the guys on Puma will tell you that they were just lucky (finally) to have not met "the one" wave.

Do I expect a custom raceboat to break in a local race. No, because local races are for pussies who don't want to race if it's blowing 20. Do I expect shit to break in the Bermuda Race if we fall off the back of an ugly wave in the Stream going 25 kts, yes. If I was doing a Volvo, I'd be amazed to NOT break something each leg.

It's Life at the Extreme for a reason, HTFU

#1342 bruno

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:12 PM

Moral winner? Puma has managed their program as well as G4, or been as fortunate up to now. Carbon stress cracks, IIRC, can be sudden in revealing themselves, point about full power setting at time of break is key. I'm guessing that the 60% antipodean crew on Puma have nearly as much accumulated experience in getting their boats home (Puma 1, numerous Syd-Hobarts, etc.,.) as the French led (some had previously raised objections on the grounds that some of the "French" were French-swiss) G4, my personal preference for leg and overall victory.

But feelings aside, KR and his team have put together a good program and sailed well. They just have to hold the Spaniards (trusting that there won't be too many objections to so characterizing this international crew). Who are charging and have perhaps had the best combination of fortitude, perserverance, and fortune this leg. And their decision to postpone changing out their rigging to Brazil may be vindicated in a couple of days. Just would've been nice to see 3 teams dueling at the end.

But i think that motoring a bit whilst re-rigging in headwinds and foul current makes sense to me also, whether one goes ashore or not, fatigue is a bit of factor at this point, no doubt. And i was just making the uninformed guess (why it's called a guess) that the French might've had a lower budget as their "national" characteristic in offshore racing is doing more with less, they did more in house and local sourcing than some of the others, etc.,. But just a guess. Interesting that their tube was significantly smaller, wonder what broke?

#1343 wrong_Line

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:12 PM

It is an easy choice to suspend if you are getting blown backwards as well as pushed by the current. If you decide to set up a jury rig without going to port then once it is set up you can motor to your new starting point and restart.

Does this mean that if you find yourself getting pushed the wrong way as you near the finish all you have to do is "suspend". Kind of like setting your anchor and waiting for wind or tide to change.



I believe The difference between suspending racing and dropping anchor is that you have to suspend for a minimum of 12 hours, where if you drop an anchor, you can pick it up and continue ASAP.

#1344 harzak

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:21 PM



$20 says Knut resigns within 48hrs...

I am taking that bet.

Done!

Do you mind more takers? I'd like to take that bet too.

#1345 Koukel

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:21 PM

Rooting for Puma still. I think they win the leg. I think it counts every bit as much as Tele's win in Leg one, and Groupama's win in Leg four. Same for Tele if they pull it out.

As for the rule or the course being responsible for boats breaking, I do not agree. Where does the rule say boats have to be built to minimum specs? If every boat fails that means that they all got it wrong. It's an around the world race with all kinds of upwind. They all knew the course, but they drew lines and picked rigs to go faster than the competition instead. Whoops. May have worked if conditions were easier this year.

Could I do better? I think so, one time every hundred or so tries; I'm that good. But to jump on the "VOR is failure bandwagon" is weak. Commercial failure - depends on the numbers and next race if there is one, less than ideal weighting of legs - whatever. I still think these are big boys with rightuous toys and all the criticism just minimizes their efforts.

As long as nothing sinks and no one falls off, I'm having every bit as much fun following this race as any in the past.

Koukel

#1346 owe.jessen

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:22 PM


$20 says Knut resigns within 48hrs...

I am taking that bet.

You bet me to it.

#1347 Te Kooti

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:25 PM

did they change rig in New Zealand?

.


No ... but they took the existing rig apart for inspection.

And reassembled it.

A 2-day job.

According to the VOR site, G4 are limping into Punta.

Only 60 miles away.

#1348 owe.jessen

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:36 PM




I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


So you're saying that five boats breaking in this leg should be normal and expected, just because the custom raceboats you've sailed on have broken pieces?

How about if I ask you this way: Would you expect to retire in five out of six consecutive local races on 'custom raceboats' because of hull or mast failure?

How do you address that fact that the combined number of leg retirements in this race has already exceeded the prior two, and we're barely 2/3 of the way through the race?

The guys on Groupama are experts...EXPERTS...at nursing a fast boat around the world. They did just that, and their mast just broke in 20 knots of breeze. You think they're just not as good as you are at backing off?




Gimme a fucking break.

Anyone got a tally of the major breakages in this event yet?


You know why this race is so cool, it's because it's HARD. Always has been, always will. Everyone willingly signed up to do it on boats that are designed to push as hard as possible on the limits of design and human endurance. They keep coming back because it's HARD. 500 years after man first sailed around Cape Horn, we still want to do it because it's HARD

ADOR broke when the guys were pushing the boat over 40kts. Do you really think Farr, or R/P, or Juan design, or anyone else have the design tools to accurately calculate the dynamic loads on a VO 70 falling off a monster wave at 40 kts? Shit happens. I'm sure the guys on Puma will tell you that they were just lucky (finally) to have not met "the one" wave.

Do I expect a custom raceboat to break in a local race. No, because local races are for pussies who don't want to race if it's blowing 20. Do I expect shit to break in the Bermuda Race if we fall off the back of an ugly wave in the Stream going 25 kts, yes. If I was doing a Volvo, I'd be amazed to NOT break something each leg.

It's Life at the Extreme for a reason, HTFU


I suuppose you get HARD when the VOR commercial gets to the poitn of 'be prepared to pay the ultimate price'. I honestly think the crew woud love to sail HARD in gale storm winds, because they can trust their ship not to break up. But they cant, they have to take the pedal from the metal as soon as the wind hits 25kn. For an ocean race, this is ridiculous.

#1349 averagehack

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:41 PM


It is an easy choice to suspend if you are getting blown backwards as well as pushed by the current. If you decide to set up a jury rig without going to port then once it is set up you can motor to your new starting point and restart.

Does this mean that if you find yourself getting pushed the wrong way as you near the finish all you have to do is "suspend". Kind of like setting your anchor and waiting for wind or tide to change.



I believe The difference between suspending racing and dropping anchor is that you have to suspend for a minimum of 12 hours, where if you drop an anchor, you can pick it up and continue ASAP.


Ah...good point. I had forgot about that.

#1350 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:50 PM

Am I right in saying that this will be the FOURTH ship that ADOR has been loaded onto this race. Sanya too.

#1351 dlangpap

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:55 PM

Moral winner? Puma has managed their program as well as G4, or been as fortunate up to now. Carbon stress cracks, IIRC, can be sudden in revealing themselves, point about full power setting at time of break is key. I'm guessing that the 60% antipodean crew on Puma have nearly as much accumulated experience in getting their boats home (Puma 1, numerous Syd-Hobarts, etc.,.) as the French led (some had previously raised objections on the grounds that some of the "French" were French-swiss) G4, my personal preference for leg and overall victory.

But feelings aside, KR and his team have put together a good program and sailed well. They just have to hold the Spaniards (trusting that there won't be too many objections to so characterizing this international crew). Who are charging and have perhaps had the best combination of fortitude, perserverance, and fortune this leg. And their decision to postpone changing out their rigging to Brazil may be vindicated in a couple of days. Just would've been nice to see 3 teams dueling at the end.

But i think that motoring a bit whilst re-rigging in headwinds and foul current makes sense to me also, whether one goes ashore or not, fatigue is a bit of factor at this point, no doubt. And i was just making the uninformed guess (why it's called a guess) that the French might've had a lower budget as their "national" characteristic in offshore racing is doing more with less, they did more in house and local sourcing than some of the others, etc.,. But just a guess. Interesting that their tube was significantly smaller, wonder what broke?


You are right, PUMA deserves it as much as GPMA, they hung in there and were able to also nurse their boat and catch up. It would also be fair if they won.


GPMA is the moral winner of this leg which should have finished way before.


How many points does the moral winner get?!?


In this case I think it'll be 20...

#1352 HWW

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:55 PM

There is nothing ridiculous about having to throttle down above 25 kn; every yacht has its limits somewhere. Every sail has its optimum range and its limits. That's a given. And it's not like they are going slow in winds above 25 kts.
Now what one thinks about the failure rate in this rate is another matter.


[/quote]

I suuppose you get HARD when the VOR commercial gets to the poitn of 'be prepared to pay the ultimate price'. I honestly think the crew woud love to sail HARD in gale storm winds, because they can trust their ship not to break up. But they cant, they have to take the pedal from the metal as soon as the wind hits 25kn. For an ocean race, this is ridiculous.
[/quote]

#1353 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:01 PM

You know why this race is so cool, it's because it's HARD. Always has been, always will. Everyone willingly signed up to do it on boats that are designed to push as hard as possible on the limits of design and human endurance. They keep coming back because it's HARD. 500 years after man first sailed around Cape Horn, we still want to do it because it's HARD

ADOR broke when the guys were pushing the boat over 40kts. Do you really think Farr, or R/P, or Juan design, or anyone else have the design tools to accurately calculate the dynamic loads on a VO 70 falling off a monster wave at 40 kts? Shit happens. I'm sure the guys on Puma will tell you that they were just lucky (finally) to have not met "the one" wave.

Do I expect a custom raceboat to break in a local race. No, because local races are for pussies who don't want to race if it's blowing 20. Do I expect shit to break in the Bermuda Race if we fall off the back of an ugly wave in the Stream going 25 kts, yes. If I was doing a Volvo, I'd be amazed to NOT break something each leg.

It's Life at the Extreme for a reason, HTFU


So for you it's perfectly acceptable that five out of six boats have major damage this leg, with four of them needing to either rebuild their boat or their mast to even continue, and three of them already having retired or suspended from previous legs, and because it is supposed to be Life At The Extreme, no one should be publicly addressing the dropout rate for the race thus far, or sustainability of the current rule/construction/design/racing level paradigm.

In other words, this is like the Baja 1000 of sailing, where nearly universally needing to fix major damage on the course is to be expected. If that is what the Volvo Ocean Race is meant to be, and can be sustained at that level, then fine. I've never thought of it that way, though, and for me at least, close racing on the course is somewhat more interesting than closely following how fast epoxy is setting in some bay so I can try to figure out who will motor back to their suspension point first and go sailing.

#1354 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:01 PM

Do you think that the marketing mantra " Any news is good news" has anything to do with the design choices? Or maybe just "Go Big or Go Home". I know the hit count here today has certainly gone up.

#1355 Call me Tiger

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:01 PM

[/quote]

I suuppose you get HARD when the VOR commercial gets to the poitn of 'be prepared to pay the ultimate price'. I honestly think the crew woud love to sail HARD in gale storm winds, because they can trust their ship not to break up. But they cant, they have to take the pedal from the metal as soon as the wind hits 25kn. For an ocean race, this is ridiculous.
[/quote]

Aaah.. at last! My favorite KYC (Kiel Yachting Clowns) expert is back.
Speaking of ridicolous ocean races with just a submerged lawn in front of your door, will you be out in the snow showers sailing this weekend?
No? Then STFU.

#1356 dlangpap

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:04 PM





I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


So you're saying that five boats breaking in this leg should be normal and expected, just because the custom raceboats you've sailed on have broken pieces?

How about if I ask you this way: Would you expect to retire in five out of six consecutive local races on 'custom raceboats' because of hull or mast failure?

How do you address that fact that the combined number of leg retirements in this race has already exceeded the prior two, and we're barely 2/3 of the way through the race?

The guys on Groupama are experts...EXPERTS...at nursing a fast boat around the world. They did just that, and their mast just broke in 20 knots of breeze. You think they're just not as good as you are at backing off?




Gimme a fucking break.

Anyone got a tally of the major breakages in this event yet?


You know why this race is so cool, it's because it's HARD. Always has been, always will. Everyone willingly signed up to do it on boats that are designed to push as hard as possible on the limits of design and human endurance. They keep coming back because it's HARD. 500 years after man first sailed around Cape Horn, we still want to do it because it's HARD

ADOR broke when the guys were pushing the boat over 40kts. Do you really think Farr, or R/P, or Juan design, or anyone else have the design tools to accurately calculate the dynamic loads on a VO 70 falling off a monster wave at 40 kts? Shit happens. I'm sure the guys on Puma will tell you that they were just lucky (finally) to have not met "the one" wave.

Do I expect a custom raceboat to break in a local race. No, because local races are for pussies who don't want to race if it's blowing 20. Do I expect shit to break in the Bermuda Race if we fall off the back of an ugly wave in the Stream going 25 kts, yes. If I was doing a Volvo, I'd be amazed to NOT break something each leg.

It's Life at the Extreme for a reason, HTFU


So for you it's perfectly acceptable that five out of six boats have major damage this leg, with four of them needing to either rebuild their boat or their mast to even continue, and three of them already having retired or suspended from previous legs, and because it is supposed to be Life At The Extreme, no one should be publicly addressing the dropout rate for the race thus far, or sustainability of the current rule/construction/design/racing level paradigm.

In other words, this is like the Baja 1000 of sailing, where nearly universally needing to fix major damage on the course is to be expected. If that is what the Volvo Ocean Race is meant to be, and can be sustained at that level, then fine. I've never thought of it that way, though, and for me at least, close racing on the course is somewhat more interesting than closely following how fast epoxy is setting in some bay so I can try to figure out who will motor back to their suspension point first and go sailing.


+1

#1357 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:30 PM

Edit: It's not a race 'on the limits of design.' It's a race on the limits of the Volvo 70 Rule. There are plenty of faster monohulls, though until the recent spate of carnage, the perception was that there were few faster boats that could be pushed as hard as a VO70. That rule should be able to typeform boats that won't break, and that are still exciting and fast. Maybe it does, and the construction just wasn't up to par in all of these cases. Maybe each case is different, and Knut and Co. are just unlucky this race.

Either way, someone should be addressing it, unless they think that this level of attrition, without anything really out of the ordinary weather-wise, is perfectly normal. If that's the message they send, I would be very, very surprised to find any new sponsors considering the next VOR.

If that's not the message, then it's time to step up and talk about how they are going to fix it for the next event.

#1358 crashdog

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:34 PM


You know why this race is so cool, it's because it's HARD. Always has been, always will. Everyone willingly signed up to do it on boats that are designed to push as hard as possible on the limits of design and human endurance. They keep coming back because it's HARD. 500 years after man first sailed around Cape Horn, we still want to do it because it's HARD

ADOR broke when the guys were pushing the boat over 40kts. Do you really think Farr, or R/P, or Juan design, or anyone else have the design tools to accurately calculate the dynamic loads on a VO 70 falling off a monster wave at 40 kts? Shit happens. I'm sure the guys on Puma will tell you that they were just lucky (finally) to have not met "the one" wave.

Do I expect a custom raceboat to break in a local race. No, because local races are for pussies who don't want to race if it's blowing 20. Do I expect shit to break in the Bermuda Race if we fall off the back of an ugly wave in the Stream going 25 kts, yes. If I was doing a Volvo, I'd be amazed to NOT break something each leg.

It's Life at the Extreme for a reason, HTFU


So for you it's perfectly acceptable that five out of six boats have major damage this leg, with four of them needing to either rebuild their boat or their mast to even continue, and three of them already having retired or suspended from previous legs, and because it is supposed to be Life At The Extreme, no one should be publicly addressing the dropout rate for the race thus far, or sustainability of the current rule/construction/design/racing level paradigm.

In other words, this is like the Baja 1000 of sailing, where nearly universally needing to fix major damage on the course is to be expected. If that is what the Volvo Ocean Race is meant to be, and can be sustained at that level, then fine. I've never thought of it that way, though, and for me at least, close racing on the course is somewhat more interesting than closely following how fast epoxy is setting in some bay so I can try to figure out who will motor back to their suspension point first and go sailing.


Kind of sounds like the Star Class on Biscayne Bay. I remember when the VO70 rule was first put out and the comparison was made to Stars because of the sail area to movable ballast ratio (the fat bob over the side is similar to swinging the keel 35% to windward. Of course, there is that whole offshore part. But we shouldn't be too surprised.

Of course, I love Stars in breeze.

#1359 Call me Tiger

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:41 PM

Edit: It's not a race 'on the limits of design.' It's a race on the limits of the Volvo 70 Rule. There are plenty of faster monohulls, though until the recent spate of carnage, the perception was that there were few faster boats that could be pushed as hard as a VO70. That rule should be able to typeform boats that won't break, and that are still exciting and fast. Maybe it does, and the construction just wasn't up to par in all of these cases. Maybe each case is different, and Knut and Co. are just unlucky this race.

Either way, someone should be addressing it, unless they think that this level of attrition, without anything really out of the ordinary weather-wise, is perfectly normal. If that's the message they send, I would be very, very surprised to find any new sponsors considering the next VOR.

If that's not the message, then it's time to step up and talk about how they are going to fix it for the next event.


And you, the doyen of sailing journalism, holder of international press credentials, will do that for us.
What a piece of luck.

#1360 valor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:53 PM

Knut comments....on Volvo site under lead story. Here is part of his comments.


"It is not acceptable that in a race like this we have so many failures. It is not unusual for boats to suffer problems, and sailors and shore teams are used to having to deal with some issues with their boats, but this has been on a bigger scale than in the past.

"It's important that we don't leap to any conclusions about why these breakages have happened. Some of them are clearly not related. However, we will take the current issues into account as we make decisions on rules and technology we will be using in the future.

"We have already put in a lot of work, discussing with teams, designers and all other stakeholders about the boats and the rules we will use in the future, and we expect to be in a position to announce a decision on that before the end of the current race.

"For the time being, our focus continues to be on the safety of the sailors. We are doing everything we can to help Groupama, and the rest of the teams not currently sailing, back in the race as soon as possible."

#1361 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:02 PM

I suuppose you get HARD when the VOR commercial gets to the point of 'be prepared to pay the ultimate price'. I honestly think the crew woud love to sail HARD in gale storm winds, because they can trust their ship not to break up. But they cant, they have to take the pedal from the metal as soon as the wind hits 25kn. For an ocean race, this is ridiculous.


At a given point you'll have to reef, and slow down because of the sea-state. This is a big difference between in-shore and off-shore sailing: at some point you have to take care of the boat. Seamanship to round the Horn involves dealing successfully with boat-breaking conditions, by escaping them or whatever. It's not reasonable to expect an indestructible off-shore racing boat. May be with new materials in 50 years, but not now. With multi-hulls, capsizing or pitch-poling usually states the limit, but they break too. Mono-hulls do forgive more if you wait a bit too much to take a reef, but you can break them too.

As some one commented, the amount of breakage is worrisome, but the boats have been patched, limped to port and repaired.
This is a race in which this happens all the time and the boats have to go to the starting point of the next leg carried because a hull failure half the previous.
Either the boats are not up to specifications or the crew is pushing beyond those. I think is the later, as the conditions they have endured have been quite tough.
In any case they are pushing beyond the boats limits and breaking them. Breaking the boats, not the limits.
If you could not retire from a leg and repair for the next, if only the "suspend" option was available and not finishing a leg would mean out of the race, then, maybe, they would be more careful with the boats.

I don't think that a little bit stronger boats will prevent this: crew will just push a little bit more trying to win ... or break.
It happens all the time at the Jules Verne trophy: Orange 2, Groupama 3, Banque Populaire 5 to name just the last 3, ALL had to retire in previous tries because something broke before completing the tour. Normally in the first half, with boat loaded of food. They went back, repaired, and tried again.

#1362 edelweis

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:02 PM

There are plenty of faster monohulls,...


Mind giving some examples?

#1363 valor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:10 PM

G4 broken mast photos up on Volvo site.

#1364 Cyrille Hydrogene

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

There is a 100 footer at dodck in Ireland, but I think it's still waiting for its keel to come back from the bottom of the ocean... :)

And BTW the designer, is Juan K. Same as Tele, G4, and Puma. And same as Bernard Stamm's Cheminée Poujoulat 60 footer, which had serious structural problems in the last Jacques Vabre, IIRC.

#1365 valor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:13 PM

photos on G4's Livestream page as well.

#1366 STYACHT

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:15 PM

Knut comments....on Volvo site under lead story. Here is part of his comments.


"It is not acceptable that in a race like this we have so many failures. It is not unusual for boats to suffer problems, and sailors and shore teams are used to having to deal with some issues with their boats, but this has been on a bigger scale than in the past.

"It's important that we don't leap to any conclusions about why these breakages have happened. Some of them are clearly not related. However, we will take the current issues into account as we make decisions on rules and technology we will be using in the future.

"We have already put in a lot of work, discussing with teams, designers and all other stakeholders about the boats and the rules we will use in the future, and we expect to be in a position to announce a decision on that before the end of the current race.

"For the time being, our focus continues to be on the safety of the sailors. We are doing everything we can to help Groupama, and the rest of the teams not currently sailing, back in the race as soon as possible."


So, Knut did NOT resign, right? I got 20 (that would be United States of America Dollars) riding on it. Just about a day and a half to go...<edit>maybe a bit more!

#1367 valor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:32 PM

latest sched has G4 making headway NW toward coast.

#1368 harzak

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:35 PM




I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


So you're saying that five boats breaking in this leg should be normal and expected, just because the custom raceboats you've sailed on have broken pieces?

How about if I ask you this way: Would you expect to retire in five out of six consecutive local races on 'custom raceboats' because of hull or mast failure?

How do you address that fact that the combined number of leg retirements in this race has already exceeded the prior two, and we're barely 2/3 of the way through the race?

The guys on Groupama are experts...EXPERTS...at nursing a fast boat around the world. They did just that, and their mast just broke in 20 knots of breeze. You think they're just not as good as you are at backing off?




Gimme a fucking break.

Anyone got a tally of the major breakages in this event yet?


You know why this race is so cool, it's because it's HARD. Always has been, always will. Everyone willingly signed up to do it on boats that are designed to push as hard as possible on the limits of design and human endurance. They keep coming back because it's HARD. 500 years after man first sailed around Cape Horn, we still want to do it because it's HARD

ADOR broke when the guys were pushing the boat over 40kts. Do you really think Farr, or R/P, or Juan design, or anyone else have the design tools to accurately calculate the dynamic loads on a VO 70 falling off a monster wave at 40 kts? Shit happens. I'm sure the guys on Puma will tell you that they were just lucky (finally) to have not met "the one" wave.

Do I expect a custom raceboat to break in a local race. No, because local races are for pussies who don't want to race if it's blowing 20. Do I expect shit to break in the Bermuda Race if we fall off the back of an ugly wave in the Stream going 25 kts, yes. If I was doing a Volvo, I'd be amazed to NOT break something each leg.

It's Life at the Extreme for a reason, HTFU


mr_ryano, what exactly is your take on this?

1: The safety/strength requirements of the design rules as of this date are perfect and should not be changed.
2: There should be no rules enforcing safety or strength at all.
3: None of the above (please specify).

#1369 coxcreek

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:38 PM



I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


Why do people keep quoting the MOD70 in any discussion of pushing hard, setting limits and being strong? As great as the platform is, it is totally unproven.


Well, because you would be hard put to call the VO70's proven from the results of this half over, demolition derby, eh? Also, although the MOD70's are recent launchings, they are slightly detuned, but longer ORMA designs ... and the results of years/decades of VPLP ORMA and maxi trimaran research, empirical knowledge and experience. Also again, the VO70's are just big inshore dinghies carrying too much weight and producing too much power for their own good ... and that is why they fucking break. That flat arse downwind in heavy seas, what happens, they bury the whole front end ... and then the front falls off. No, the sooner Volvo follow the modern direction, a la AC, and go to faster, drier, safer? more spectacular multihulls ...no, you disagree??

#1370 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:39 PM


There are plenty of faster monohulls,...


Mind giving some examples?


Well, this one's a decade old and still faster.

Posted Image

#1371 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:47 PM

Go Camper
Go Sanya
Go Abba Dabba
Go Groupama

Go PUMA

#1372 STYACHT

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

...


mr_ryano, what exactly is your take on this?

1: The safety/strength requirements of the design rules as of this date are perfect and should not be changed.
2: There should be no rules enforcing safety or strength at all.
3: None of the above (please specify).


Back at you: do you really feel that there are no rules enforcing safety or strength? Do you think they are imperfect and should be changed?

Safety is only part of the reason that VOR has a very strict and enforced design rule. Commercial value of a competitive race also play a role. On the former, they have essentially succeeded, even as they have failed on the second. If it can even succeed in the latter is a question.

Fact, a fast mast (daggerboard, boom, insert component here) is fast just until is it not. A broken mast or rudder does not need policing you might say. It solves itself in the long run. If it is slow, it will not survive in the race, long term. To a degree, breaking the boat in the SO is also slow. We have seen examples of how slow it can be. Some breaks less so. But if Tele goes on to win the leg or the whole thing all because they broke, just a little, not too much, it means they got it right.

I personally would change little with the VOR class rule. Maybe, as suggested here, increase min panel weight in the bow, maybe require high elongation foam cores, instead of honeycomb. Maybe specify maximum panel size. But those are tweaks on the rule.

The SI's are perhaps another matter. Steve Clark has noted that by allowing outside assistance and a 12 hour required stop if you suspend, little incentive is realized to ask teams to beef up boats. Also the amount of practice sailing, the limits on sails, the required test sails, all influence the outcome. I personally doubt that the conditions they have raced in are reliably repeatable to act as a test.

But, all that said, the rig failures in leg 1, 2 and 5 are a major problem for the race. Probably fatigue in at least two cases, maybe more. Another troubling common denominator in a few rigging failures too. I do not know how you put a protection to this occurrence in the rules. They already have a weight and CG budget which makes safe rig possible.

#1373 STYACHT

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:55 PM



There are plenty of faster monohulls,...


Mind giving some examples?


Well, this one's a decade old and still faster.

Posted Image

And ask Moose if it can be sailed as fast through the limited part of this leg that he was sailing. Nobody knows more about Mari Cha than Moose.

#1374 bombarie

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

And you, the doyen of sailing journalism, holder of international press credentials, will do that for us.
What a piece of luck.



Hope your real life is less cynical, but probably not.

I don't care much for why these boats break down, but I do care that it is totally taking the fun out of the race.

#1375 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:21 PM

And ask Moose if it can be sailed as fast through the limited part of this leg that he was sailing. Nobody knows more about Mari Cha than Moose.


That wasn't what the discussion was about. Mr. R said the VOR was 'on the edge of design' and I simply said there were plenty of designs faster, and that this edition of the VO-70 rule doesn't require building a particularly robust boat or rig in order to measure in.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you could build a Southern Ocean version of Mari Cha IV that wouldn't break unless you did something exceptionally stupid with her. I'd think she'd still be faster than a VO-70 in most conditions, but then I am not a yacht designer. What do you think?

#1376 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:32 PM

Isn't Mary Cha 140 feet long ?
That should give a 40% boost in max speed over a 70 footer every else being "equal".

#1377 mr_fabulous

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:40 AM




I've always thought the "if it's more than two, it's probably you" argument is a little harsh, but "if it's more than four, it's probably you" has gotta be valid. Time for Knut to step up and address the fact that these boats cannot race hard, even in moderate stuff, without breaking, and that there is a problem deeper than coincidental 'manufacturing errors' or "just pushing too hard." If you can't race 'em, the rule is broken.


Every custom raceboat I've ever been on has broken shit. Part of the allure of the VO 70 is knowing when to back off, just like any Open 60, MOD 70, or G Series boat. The only likely change may be to look at revising minimum panel sections in the forward 3rd. What your option, Clipper 68's?


So you're saying that five boats breaking in this leg should be normal and expected, just because the custom raceboats you've sailed on have broken pieces?

How about if I ask you this way: Would you expect to retire in five out of six consecutive local races on 'custom raceboats' because of hull or mast failure?

How do you address that fact that the combined number of leg retirements in this race has already exceeded the prior two, and we're barely 2/3 of the way through the race?

The guys on Groupama are experts...EXPERTS...at nursing a fast boat around the world. They did just that, and their mast just broke in 20 knots of breeze. You think they're just not as good as you are at backing off?




Gimme a fucking break.

Anyone got a tally of the major breakages in this event yet?


You know why this race is so cool, it's because it's HARD. Always has been, always will. Everyone willingly signed up to do it on boats that are designed to push as hard as possible on the limits of design and human endurance. They keep coming back because it's HARD. 500 years after man first sailed around Cape Horn, we still want to do it because it's HARD

ADOR broke when the guys were pushing the boat over 40kts. Do you really think Farr, or R/P, or Juan design, or anyone else have the design tools to accurately calculate the dynamic loads on a VO 70 falling off a monster wave at 40 kts? Shit happens. I'm sure the guys on Puma will tell you that they were just lucky (finally) to have not met "the one" wave.

Do I expect a custom raceboat to break in a local race. No, because local races are for pussies who don't want to race if it's blowing 20. Do I expect shit to break in the Bermuda Race if we fall off the back of an ugly wave in the Stream going 25 kts, yes. If I was doing a Volvo, I'd be amazed to NOT break something each leg.

It's Life at the Extreme for a reason, HTFU


So the best teams in the world compete at 'worrying about the rig in the the right way so it doesn't bust'? Gimmeabreak. Racing is more than equipment, ferchrissakes.


As for local race bashing, there are different flavors, depending on the club, the fleet, the boat, and the sailors involved.

#1378 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:53 AM

Seem like Tele tacked a little late for the filling southerly, if the forecast is accurate. They'll only be 4-6 hours behind Puma but maybe could have shaved an hour.

#1379 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:56 AM

Pounding to weather with a full main and a tight leach in 20 knots and a steep chop can easily invert a rig, even with full topmast backstay on. It could have been just a simple over press in tight competition.

#1380 soundsail88

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:00 AM

I'd like to see your no-doubt-innumerable calculations...


Isn't Mary Cha 140 feet long ?
That should give a 40% boost in max speed over a 70 footer every else being "equal".



#1381 valor

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:22 AM

Groupama4 video on livestream, post mast coming down. Part of it is in English.

http://new.livestrea...ailingteam/leg5

#1382 nixon

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:28 AM

Groupama4 video on livestream, post mast coming down. Part of it is in English.

http://new.livestream.com/groupamasailingteam/leg5


Any Frenchies who can summarise? Also, what was that flare going off at the back of the boat - was that part of a MOB system that got triggered?

#1383 Oscar Whitbread

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:34 AM

I'm enjoying watching this race, to me it has become more of an 'adventure' like the early days, heading into that little bit of unknown anything can happen territory. From the armchair perspective there has been plenty of action and the Volvo site is the first thing I look at whenever I turn the PC on, there is always some drama happening. To see the effort the crews and shore teams have had to go through in order to keep the boats on the race track is amazing, I can imagine most of the shore teams are thinking never again after this one. Watching Puma's struggle in the first leg and their epic journey to Tristan da Cunha and the fantastic photos/vids from the mcm was interesting, Sanya being able to make it to safety with a massive tear in the bow section without the boat sinking to it's death was another one that kept me glued to the screen. It definitely puts the 'adventure' aspect back into the race for me.

Yes watching a Volvo 70 sleigh ride through the green room is awesome and I think after the last race a lot of people thought it got boring after a while and wanted to see more characters in the crew, see more of a human aspect to it. I'd say we have seen more of the human aspect in this edition so far.

But.... all the same it is disappointing to see the number of breakages and I feel gutted for those guys who have put in the hard yards to get the boat back in the race only to have it fail again. I'd also hate to see people get seriously hurt or even die because of a major breakage. And the racing has suffered, it's turning into a survival of the fittest/last man standing wins scenario.

It is what it is, I'm sure everyone involved will look back once it's all done and dusted and say we fucked that bit up, we need to change this, change that etc and learn from what has happened. If people have lost interest in the race, that's fine, go and beat off to some internet porn or something, no one is forcing you to watch the race.

#1384 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:43 AM



And ask Moose if it can be sailed as fast through the limited part of this leg that he was sailing. Nobody knows more about Mari Cha than Moose.


That wasn't what the discussion was about. Mr. R said the VOR was 'on the edge of design' and I simply said there were plenty of designs faster, and that this edition of the VO-70 rule doesn't require building a particularly robust boat or rig in order to measure in.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you could build a Southern Ocean version of Mari Cha IV that wouldn't break unless you did something exceptionally stupid with her. I'd think she'd still be faster than a VO-70 in most conditions, but then I am not a yacht designer. What do you think?


You could have the slowest, strongest POS out there which finishes last in ever leg and still be a contender…..

#1385 Bmajor

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:44 AM


Groupama4 video on livestream, post mast coming down. Part of it is in English.

http://new.livestrea...ailingteam/leg5


Any Frenchies who can summarise? Also, what was that flare going off at the back of the boat - was that part of a MOB system that got triggered?


According to my French daughter, they were in flat seas in about 22 kts of wind (according to the French guy in black) when it broke. Skipper Frank did not see it break as he was looking at the water when it happened. Frank said that they will "Learn from this experience".

Beyond that it was discussion about the noise of the break. No idea about the smoke/flare that is seen in the video.

#1386 edelweis

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:55 AM



There are plenty of faster monohulls,...


Mind giving some examples?


Well, this one's a decade old and still faster.

(Mari Cha IV)


I doubt it. Her 24 hrs record is 520 nm and transatlantic she averaged 18,5 kts. Am not impressed.

#1387 dlangpap

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:25 AM

Although there are disagreements about how this race can be made better, I think most of the people watching want to see more racing among more boats as opposed to more repairing, pit stops and interruptions. How does the VOR get there? Rules, design, routes, whatever is needed to improve the actual boat racing.

#1388 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:26 AM

I'd like to see your no-doubt-innumerable calculations...


Isn't Mary Cha 140 feet long ?
That should give a 40% boost in max speed over a 70 footer every else being "equal".


Not innumerable, actually just one:
Hull Speed is proportional to the square root of water-line length.

This means that if you double the length, this "max" displacement speed is multiplied by the square root of 2 = 1.4142...
That said, to take into account the << "equal" not being really equal >> part would need no doubt a really big, but never the less enumerable, number of calculations.
B)

#1389 soundsail88

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:35 AM


I'd like to see your no-doubt-innumerable calculations...


Isn't Mary Cha 140 feet long ?
That should give a 40% boost in max speed over a 70 footer every else being "equal".


Not innumerable, actually just one:
Hull Speed is proportional to the square root of water-line length.

This means that if you double the length, this "max" displacement speed is multiplied by the square root of 2 = 1.4142...
That said, to take into account the << "equal" not being really equal >> part would need no doubt a really big, but never the less enumerable, number of calculations.
B)




This would all be well and good if displacement hull-speed was relevant to the maximum speed of these boats.

#1390 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:37 AM


Groupama4 video on livestream, post mast coming down. Part of it is in English.

http://new.livestrea...ailingteam/leg5


Any Frenchies who can summarise? Also, what was that flare going off at the back of the boat - was that part of a MOB system that got triggered?


Very surprised, they have no clue why it broke, just heard a big bang and it fall backwards slowly.
They intend to go to Punta del Este to jury rig the boat and continue.

#1391 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:58 AM

That’s great!

When was the last time a boat finished a VOR/WRTWR leg under jury rig?

#1392 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:00 AM



I'd like to see your no-doubt-innumerable calculations...


Isn't Mary Cha 140 feet long ?
That should give a 40% boost in max speed over a 70 footer every else being "equal".


Not innumerable, actually just one:
Hull Speed is proportional to the square root of water-line length.

This means that if you double the length, this "max" displacement speed is multiplied by the square root of 2 = 1.4142...
That said, to take into account the << "equal" not being really equal >> part would need no doubt a really big, but never the less enumerable, number of calculations.
B)




This would all be well and good if displacement hull-speed was relevant to the maximum speed of these boats.


I thought it was to Mari Cha, might be wrong. I don't know when and how the VOR 70 enter planning mode and escape hull-speed limitations.
But it seems there's a consensus that, hull speed or not, longer means faster. And most formulas for speed prediction I've seen make it proportional to the square root of LWL, even if the "constant" used changes, for example when the length/beam ratio goes over 10, as happens in multi-hulls, and/or they take into account other parameters to gues-stimate the speed.

#1393 soundsail88

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:21 AM




I'd like to see your no-doubt-innumerable calculations...


Isn't Mary Cha 140 feet long ?
That should give a 40% boost in max speed over a 70 footer every else being "equal".


Not innumerable, actually just one:
Hull Speed is proportional to the square root of water-line length.

This means that if you double the length, this "max" displacement speed is multiplied by the square root of 2 = 1.4142...
That said, to take into account the << "equal" not being really equal >> part would need no doubt a really big, but never the less enumerable, number of calculations.
B)




This would all be well and good if displacement hull-speed was relevant to the maximum speed of these boats.


I thought it was to Mari Cha, might be wrong. I don't know when and how the VOR 70 enter planning mode and escape hull-speed limitations.
But it seems there's a consensus that, hull speed or not, longer means faster. And most formulas for speed prediction I've seen make it proportional to the square root of LWL, even if the "constant" used changes, for example when the length/beam ratio goes over 10, as happens in multi-hulls, and/or they take into account other parameters to gues-stimate the speed.




The hull speed for Mari Cha, assuming 140' and the 1.34*sqrt(lwl) equation would be about 16 kt and for a Volvo, about 11. Someone above said they thought her transat record averaged like 18 knots, so you can see right there that her max speed is going to be outside the displacement regime. And obviously true of the 70's where ADOR hit 40+ (likely on a wave, noted). Basically as soon as that speed is reached, the yacht is in the middle of the 'transition zone' of getting up into the planing regime, defined as any speed above theoretical hull-speed where there is a virtual rise in the center of gravity of the yacht with respect to the water's surface.

In the planing regime, max speeds are dictated by power, deadrise, wetted surface, and displacement. Theoretically, all things being equal (displacement, deadrise, power), the 70 should be faster than Mari Cha by virtue of lower wetted surface area, alone. That's obviously an unreal comparison though.

Length is key when going upwind (slower) or in light winds (slower), partially because of the 'hull-speed' effect and partially because a longer boat can carry more sail area, higher, which will allow it to take better advantage of the lighter breeze.

With multi-hulls, because of their slenderness, planing is more difficult due to the lack of planing surface, so the length is more relevant to the speed.

#1394 Indio

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:56 AM

That's great!

When was the last time a boat finished a VOR/WRTWR leg under jury rig?


Ceramco '81-'82 ??

The Ceramco Files: No use calling home for Mum

Posted Image'Ceramco from the air nearing Cape Town' Ceramco NZ
This week it is the 25th anniversary of the dismasting of Ceramco New Zealand. Over this time, Sail-World is featuring a series of images and sound clips from one of the seminal moments in New Zealand yachting culture.


Chapter 6 of 'Blake's Odyssey' by Peter Blake and Alan Sefton. in which Peter Blake describes his initial reaction to the dismasting of Ceramco New Zealand in the 1981-82 Whitbread Race

I dashed up on deck. What a mess. The whole top half of the mast was over the side but still attached by internal halyards and wiring systems, plus the mainsail and jib and the headstay. Another section, probably 2Oft long, was bent over and dangling down to the gunwhale. We were left with a l6ft stump still in place.

It appeared that the port lower intermediate shroud had broken where it bent over the lower spreader. The mast didn’t have a chance and folded at the middle and bottom spreaders. But diagnosis had to wait. The top section of the alloy mast, with all its attachments, was under the boat with the wind blowing Ceramco down on to it.

There were some shocked and glum faces about, but nobody hesitated. Fenders were put over the side to prevent hull damage by the section in the water. We used the motor — first making sure there were no lines under the propeller — to reverse the boat around until the spar and entanglements were to windward with Ceramco streaming to leeward of their danger. Then we used blocks and tackles to slowly winch the mast section back on board.

With everything back on deck — we salvaged the lot — we had only three bent stanchions to show for all the trouble. But we were 2455 miles from Cape Town, as the crow flies, with only a loft stump of a mast from which to hang a bare minimum of sail.

To get us moving again, while we took stock of the situation, we set the trisail and No. 6 jib on the stump and quickly were making 4 to 5 knots in the right direction. That was something. But it was daunting to think how far we had to go - most of it to windward if we contemplated the direct route.

Posted ImageThe gunnel-bum clinic is held aboard Ceramco New Zealand - Ceramco NZ Click Here to view large photo


Day 25: Tuesday, September 22. Noon position 6.12S 14.54W
Day’s run 64 miles. Course 230 degrees.
Wind SSE 10 knots. Barometer 1017.

Not one of the great nights. Everyone retired to their own thoughts, very sad about what had happened. They weren’t worried for themselves. They were concerned that they might be letting down a lot of people back home who had shown so much faith in the project. But by dawn we were ready to bounce back and the work to be done diverted everyone’s attentions to things productive.
We managed 40 miles overnight in a south-westerly direction. Not a lot, but at least we were moving and in the right direction.

Vonny turned on a hearty breakfast before we began the job of hoisting the 50ft top section into place. Most people slept reasonably well despite a lot of tossing and turning. As they emerged from their bunks though there was a fair amount of uncertainty, people mentally pinching themselves hoping it had all been a had dream. A quick look on deck quickly dispelled those hopes.

<br clear="left">Posted ImageErecting the first part of the jury rig aboard Ceramco - Ceramco NZ There was a seven to eight foot swell running and quite a lollop so the job of hoisting the 5Oft top section wasn’t going to be easy. We started by maneuvering the spar forward until it was over the pulpit and right out in front of the boat. The base of the section had been trimmed off with a hacksaw, filed up neatly and was resting just in front of the stub of the bottom section which was still in position in the boat.

As a pad for the top section, which would of course be deck-stepped, we’d requisitioned Vonny’s kauri breadboard from the galley. The cook wasn’t too happy at losing such a beautiful part of his set-up, but relented as it was to be put to essential use. The breadboard was fixed in place, in front of the stub, by bolting alloy strips to it and through the deck. We then created a system of ropes and wire around the base of the top section to prevent it shooting backwards when we performed the actual lift.

Next we rigged the stub as a fulcrum with a wire run over the top of it to the hounds of what would be our new mast, up over the pulpit then back over the top of the stub to the mainsheet winch in the helmsman’s cockpit. We were almost ready, but as a precaution against the sea that was running, we rigged control lines so that we could keep a tight grip on everything when we started the hoist.

It was quite an operation with a few anxious moments, but slowly the top section was ground to the vertical, in position in front of the stub. Chappy went up and lashed the new’ spar to the top of the stub while Jaws wired up the bottom. We then pulled it all tight with blocks and tackle and made sure it would remain in position by adding bands of wire and big bulldog clips. Midway up the stub, we bound the two sections together with hefty wire and again tightened this up with blocks and tackle.

To make sure the bottom of the new mast couldn’t go anywhere, we block-and-tackled it out to the sidedecks.

We had already rigged forestay and backstay spare halyards and kite braces — from the top of the mast. Now we added shrouds from the mast top and from the hounds, using a jockey pole as a spreader on the port side to improve the load angle on the main shroud on what would be the weather (windward) side of the boat. As we tensioned it all, the new mast seemed to be standing well, so we rigged an inner forestay and prepared to try some sail.
Posted ImageOn board Ceramco. Chappie is up the mast again. On the right a spinnaker pole is rigged. - Ceramco NZ

Using light cord, we lashed the No. 6 headsail — through its eyelets to the forestay and hoisted it. Next came the storm jib, set on the inner forestay (all the stays connected through blocks to the big grinder winches aft). Immediately, the boat steadied down. We had power on and Ceramco felt like she was a going concern again, her speed potential albeit reduced. The trisail came next, hoisted to the top of the mast (with no ties on the luff) and sheeted to the quarter. The speedo shot up to 7.5 to 8 knots. We felt pretty pleased with ourselves. It was now noon on September 22 — 24 hours since that ominous crack which had threatened complete disaster. We’d covered only 64 miles, what was to be the worst run of the leg. But it wasn’t too bad I guess when one considered that the previous worst run had been 85 miles, noon to noon, in the Doldrums.

The work was far from finished however. Now we had to strengthen the rig to make sure it would stay there and take the loads. The top of the mast was already tending to wiggle around quite a lot.

Log extract and text from 'Blake's Odyssey' reprinted by kind permission of Alan Sefton. Sound recordings kindly provided by Peter Montgomery from his personal archives.
Watch Captain Keith Chapman on the dismasting - Click play button twice to listen



Watch Captain Geoff Stagg talks to Peter Montgomery on the Ceramco dismasting - Click play button twice to listen



Richard MacAlister talks to Peter Montgomery - Click play button twice to listen



Trevor Agnew talks to Peter Montgomery - Click play button twice to listen



Top journalist Bob Fisher tells of seeing Ceramco for the first time under jury rig - Click play button twice to listen


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by Peter Montgomery, Alan Sefton and Sail-World




#1395 nemme

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:04 AM

I just went to take a look at Camper's livestream page and the Leg 5 feed is now under Past Events. Are they sharing a ship with Abu Dhabi? Nevermind. All the team pages have Leg 5 under Past Events. Even livestream is fed up with the breakages.

#1396 Te Kooti

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:14 AM

Although there are disagreements about how this race can be made better, I think most of the people watching want to see more racing among more boats as opposed to more repairing, pit stops and interruptions. How does the VOR get there? Rules, design, routes, whatever is needed to improve the actual boat racing.


Knut says they will learn from this experience.

They DID learn from the earlier failures of canting systems. And rectified the problem.

So, it will be interesting to see how owners/designers/sailors respond to whatever VOR comes up with.

#1397 smackdaddy

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:10 AM

One of the stranger sentences on the VOR site pertaining to Groupama:

While they are unlikely to return to pole position, with only about 600 nautical miles remaining to the finish, third place is likely as CAMPER continue repairs in Chile and the remainder of the fleet have retired.


Ya think?

#1398 Jammen

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:33 AM

Broken forstay?

#1399 clamslapper

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:55 AM

I don't get what Tele is doing. It looks like KR has very craftily sailed right up to the shore to get out of the south-running current. Now, the Brazil Current is not the world's strongest, but it could be a decisive factor in the final 500 miles. Just wondering what Cape is thinking. Maybe he's doing anything possible to break a cover by Puma; not sure... Seems like Puma will be very hard to beat, as Tele has 8-9% in extra distance to cover -- that is a heck of a lot and as the boats converge, they will by definition be in the same weather system.

#1400 Who's your daddy

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:00 AM

Last time the keels fell off before the sticks wore out. B) And they fixed the keel issue. Sure, the rigs are more complex, but maybe they just need to spec higher safety margins in the design process for both hulls and rigs.

Don't remember any keels falling off last race, although Tele Blue tried their hardest! What confuses me is that the rig rules have hardly changed in 3 races. In the first 2 only 1 rig came down (Brasil 1), and that was clearly a poor fitting design (hard corners = load concentration). So what has changed? The RM isn't higher this time (smaller bulbs than last race). The only change I can think of is the reduction from 24 sails to 17 sails and 3Di has made the sails less forgiving. Hard to imagine that is enough, but what else can it be?
Same with forward panel weights and sizes. Most of the engineers say that the ISO structure up forwards is overkill, but this race has proven otherwise. Something has to change.




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